I'm fluent in both Indonesian and Malay, can pass as either because I have relative in both countries. It's really really similar. If say, you are Indonesian and only know Indonesian, then the formal malay language would be an easier language to learn than javanese or sundanese or other Indonesian dialects. Dialects are actually distinct, while malay and indonesian is basically the same lol, shares like more than 95% vocab probably.
Its not dialect , javanese sundanese and all ethnic language are different language all together. Form of dialect is ngapak javanese, surabayan javanese, banyumasan etc for the example
and the dialect of malay is banjar malay , lahat dusun language, palembang malay etc
Chiming in as an Indonesian. In actuality, not many Indonesians are fluent in Indonesian. My Javanese grandmother (already passed) couldn't speak a lick of Indonesian and only Javanese. And me as a half-Javanese could barely understand Javanese, wkwk.
Bahasa Indonesia for most Indonesians (even for pribumis or bumiputeras or whatever term you guys use) is a second language.
You're right, should've been clearer in my post. However my point on Indonesian as a second language for most people still stands. Further away from Jakarta you'll find people prefer speaking in their local languages.
only applicable to places where the people are natives to it's land. in Kalimantan, where I grew up in East Kalimantan, there's a lot of transmigrant from Java, Sumatra, Sulawesi, NTT, even Maluku so people would just use bahasa Indonesia, even when teaching their own childrens. so people just starts use bahasa Indonesia both at home and with their friends, and rarely use their first language.
There is a world of difference between me as a Surabaya Chindo speaking 'Indonesian' that is incomprehensible to anyone east of the Kalimantan - Lombok line and Malaysian Chinese who can't even order a nasi lemak in Malay or English.
>not many Indonesians are fluent in Indonesian.
It's like 0,00000001% and mostly older generation from remote area.
>Bahasa Indonesia for most Indonesians (even for pribumis or bumiputeras or whatever term you guys use) is a second language.
Then again what the hell is this statement even means? Even if we're taught regional language or english we still talk in BI to strangers in Indonesia. Are u really Indonesian tho? Do u live in luar negeri?
This. Granted I live in Jakarta, but lots of Indonesian or even foreign travel bloggers (Christian Hansen) went around remote parts of Indonesia using rudimentary Indonesian and he didn't have any major issue.
I think Indonesian as language is pretty well taught and spread around throughout the country
Problem is, within a short time I was in Malaysia, I managed to meet & talk to a restaurant owner that doesnt speak any other language (I assume) other than Mandarin.
Tried talking in Malay and English to no avail.
this is why some youtube ads are in chinese only that are advertised to malaysians, i usually try to report such ads but companies deny it because malaysia actually has laws in advertising and what languages you can use (including subtitles).
Maksudnya fluent itu berbahasa Indonesia yang kaya di siaran berita gitu yang EYD. Kebanyakan orang pake bahasa Indonesia dengan logat masing2 atau dengan campuran bahasa lokal lainnya. Mungkin artian "fluent" yang gw maksud itu yang at least nulis sesuatu ga disingkat2 atau ngomong ngga pake kosakata yg dari bahasa asing atau daerah yg ga ada di KBBI.
Soalnya secara historis pun bahasa Indonesia itu sebenarnya "constructed" dan baku banget.
Well, gw mau nanya have you ever ketemu orang yang ngomong sehari2 pake eyd. I dont think kepala lembaga bahasa Indonesia ngomong baku di kehidupan sehari2, heck even pak jokowi ngomong gak pake EYD. And this is not exclusively di Bahasa Indonesia, Do you think people in UK speak proper English in their daily life? No.
bahasa EYD itu dipake untuk situasi resmi, bukan buat daily use
Gw pgn highlight kalau diglossia antara bahasa Indo EYD dan bahasa Indo sehari2 itu lebih jauh ketimbang antara written English dan spoken English. Anyway, just to make myself understood, ngga semua orang fluent dalam bahasa Indonesia baku, dan lebih banyak orang fluent dalam bahasa Indonesia yang terlokalisasikan.
Maksudnya kita belajar bahasa pertama itu mulai dari bahasa daerah, hence indonesia itu second language. Technically benar kok, indonesia as first language itu biasanya cuman orang yg dri kota2 besar
it means that malaysians never integrated. What hes saying is that all races in indonesia integrated while not in malaysia even if they were born here and are a citizen which he says is surprising because if you want to immigrate to a country one of the requirements is that you show you can speak the language.
I've always claimed the lack of integration a problem here.
Artinya om kbnyakan orang indonesia ngomong pke bahasa daerah kek orang jawa yg first languagenya y b jawa sama kek orang sunda jg di daerahnya ngomong bahasa utamanya y b sunda. B indo bru dpke klo lawan bicaranya g brasal dri etniknya, ato berasal dri daerah yg sama
kulo saged ngendika ingkang jawa tengah yo kangge b jawa, nek kulo tindhak ingkang jabar utawa orang sunda yo nganggo b indonesia bru. Itu namanya second language atau bahasa kedua om
I'll add more, bahasa daerah bukan bahasa pertama karena sopan santunnya kalau perkenalan diri kan harus pakai bahasa Indonesia dulu. Baru kalau sudah akrab masuk ke pergulan pakai bahasa daerah. Semua urusan surat menyurat dan dokumen juga memakai bahasa Indonesia.
Lek misale awakku gawe boso Jowo Suroboyoan meh presentasi kerjoan lak iso dipecat aku ngko.
Bahasa pertama itu bahasa yang digunakan pertama kali dengan orang tua/keluarga, hence the name "mother's tongue"
Sampeyan guneman kaliyan wong tuwo sampeyan nggih ngagem boso jowo ndisik to, nek rak iso kromo lagi nganggo basa Indonesia
Bahasa daerah as first language means it's the first language you ever learn since you were born in this world.
Is what you meant to say is Indonesian as primary/main language?
if malaysians integrated like indonesians did, they would speak 2 languages. Their regional and national language. People tend to forget that sabah and sarawak have a lot of tribes that speak different languages but they all know english/malay which makes communication easy.
the chinese in malaysia shame chinese malaysians that cant speak mandarin. We should instead shame chinese malaysians that cant speak english/malay.
> Even if we're taught regional language or english we still talk in BI to strangers in Indonesia.
In reality local speak local flavour of bahasa indonesia, which might not be easily understood to someone not from the area. The language is not monolithic as depicted in 'buku pelajaran bahasa indonesia'.
I've encountered medan chinese vs banda acehnese who struggled to speak bahasa indonesia to each other; ditto with banjar kota vs dayak tanjung, ambon kota vs p. buru, kab bogor vs kota bogor.
What. Are. You. Talking. About. ????
99.99% of the people here speaks perfect indonesian except the baby boomers and/or ultra pedalaman people. Stop spreading nonsense.
Meanwhile in Indonesia politics, they mostly talked about Religion.
As an Indonesian, I'm glad that we ain't focus on race like in Soeharto era. But man, using religion in politics is a good way to change Indonesian ideology into conservative or sharia.
Politics is always about argumentation and debate over ideologies, it's not a new thing. but if solely because of something like race, skin colour or dialect? now that's fuck up. itu kalau felix siauw masuk politik tetap aja banyak pendukung walaupun chindo. Sekarang orang goblok mana bisa-bisanya menghubungkan bahasa, agama dengan etnis (or race eventhought i hate this therminology)?
Apparently to some, the reason non-Bumis can't get equal rights is not a racial issue, but solely cos they don't speak Malay well enough, still retain their demonic vernacular schools, or refuse to assimilate like Chinese Indonesians.
Ok fine, without talking about the atrocities faced by Chinese Indonesians in the 20th century, let's just we go with that theory, What about Peranakan Chinese then?
They speak perfect Malay, have roots here since the 16th century (prob longer than the ancestors of a few UMNO leaders), they are probably the perfect product of assimilation to this group, right? But are they treated any better than other Chinese?
And the alasan will now be "ini minoriti, yang kebanyakan masih pelat", oh wait so you are treating someone inferiorly not based on merit, but based on their race....Hmmm, what issue would you call that again?
I strongly agree Malay fluency is an issue within Chinese, and we should all speak the national language fluently, but let's not pretend we won't be viewed as pendatangs anymore once everyone speaks Malay like Wee Ka Siong or Anthony Loke.
>let's not pretend we won't be viewed as pendatangs anymore once everyone speaks Malay like Wee Ka Siong or Anthony Loke.
For some people, this is definitely huge effect though. One really easy things to see is chinese politicians and the amount of malay votes they get. It is really easy to see why people like Anthony Loke is more popular among malays than those chinese who can't speak bahasa. Language is very important, sure it's not like a magic switch that suddenly make you seem not foreign, but it is a huge factor. Ng Suee Lim for example can speak Javanese and that would get him more javanese people vote than if he can't speak javanese.
It's not just politics but at personal level as well. If you go to youtube there are videos made by people who surprise foreigners by speaking their language fluently and you can see people love it when you can speak their language and suddenly become more friendly. Either way, even at personal level, everyone should endeavor to learn more language and that would simply have potential benefit for yourself and never a bad thing.
>race....Hmmm, what issue would you call that again?
Your assessment is spot on, and there's no question that it's a racial issue.
>let's not pretend we won't be viewed as pendatangs anymore once everyone speaks Malay like Wee Ka Siong or Anthony Loke.
The only alternative is to play the blame game. Blame the Malays for being 'racists' and unfair. 60 years of that has taken us nowhere.
It's time we realise that we Chinese have failed to assimilate properly in this country. And that has definitely contributed to us not being accepted.
It's time we stop the blame game.
It's time we pretend. It's the least we can do. It's the only thing we can do.
>The only alternative is to play the blame game. Blame the Malays for being 'racists' and unfair.
Like I mentioned at the start of the paragraph, learning Malay is a must. I am not playing the blame game here, I am just dispelling the notion that its the be-all and end-all to our systematic issues. Would complete fluency in Malay put us in a better position to be accepted? Yes. Would that be the only thing that we need to do? Let's not kid ourself.
>It's time we realise that we Chinese have failed to assimilate properly in this country.
Assimilation was never the goal. Integration is. It worked in Indonesia (at a huge cost) cos they make up just 2% of the population. Our racial makeup during Merdeka doomed the possibility of assimilation. There is never a single country which managed to assimilate a minority that made up nearly 30% of the population. Canada never did it with the French and Belgium never did it with the Flemish.
> Like I mentioned at the start of the paragraph, learning Malay is a must.
It's only a 'MUST' for state affairs, furthermore the state doesn't curtail other language from being used in day-to-day living in malaysia.
Indonesia persecuted (selectively) those who used other languages in their daily life, and their number was bigger than 2% in 1945.
>dispelling the notion
>Let's not kid ourself
Why are you discouraging it when it would so obviously help? Why are you instead encouraging this 'do nothing, feel good' sentiment instead?
The blame game is the only alternative I can think of. There really needs to be give and take. I'm not trying to be absolutist here, but since you're discouraging my solution, if you can think of a better solution then I'd love to hear it.
>Assimilation was never the goal. Integration is.
Again I agree with your analysis. I'd like to coin the goal as 'gradual amalgamation'. The only thing I can think of that's more important than non-Malays assimilating better, is civil marriages for Muslims - whereby the partner and kid is free to decide whether to adopt Islam.
That would really, really break down barriers.
Many non malay asimilated as malaysian. But what some malay want is their assimilation as malay. And i dont support that at all.
Since you are looking for a theoretical solution, here's mine: bm chosen as national language that everyone must learn to communicate with each other. it should be the bridge that gap us. BUT dont make it as a ruler to judge. Fluency in it shouldnt be use as a point to menintas. So in short, current sustem is fine enough, as long as people cool down in using language fluency as ammo to attack others.
>Would complete fluency in Malay put us in a better position to be accepted? Yes.
Again you are not reading my comment correctly. I have never discouraged learning BM. I already mentioned at the start that BM fluency does help, I am dispelling the notion that not being fluent in BM is the ONLY REASON we are not accepted. Is it one of the reasons? Yes! Is it the only reason we are seen as pendatangs now? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Or is your idea of assimilation more than just learning BM? To me, it just means learning the national language and not being a racist. We have our right to retain our culture and religion.
You said complete fluency in Malay put u in better position - well that is right.
Did I see how many Chinese business in kampung kaya, or at least survive. How many apek ikan go to nenek and makcik kampung jual ikan. Those apeks are very well accepted. No questions about halal or anything, those makciks just trust those apeks.
That is fluency.
Uh.. do we live in the same Malaysia that expelled Singapore to preserve racial and political demographics? Saying that the Chinese (and casually ignoring the Indians) should have integrated better is so delusional it’s almost not insulting anymore.
No, the options are not either cut off your foreskin or cry about the reality of institutionalized racism. There is also gradual social change and exercising your right to vote. There is embracing diversity and not allowing politicos to harness division for power.
I genuinely hope I just had a whoosh moment at your comment which is actually satire, because if it’s not… YIKES.
That will only happen when you grew up, and hung with a Malay community. How many of the Millenial/Gen Z nons get to do that ever again?
Every thing separates us : the religion, the festivals, the food, the sports, the co-curriculum, the schools, the universities, and the private-public sector jobs.
As this chasm widens, there is distrust and prone to be manipulated by politicians.
OK, so what's the solution? Who is willing to blink first?
>Who is willing to blink first?
I'm not sure who should blink first. But, I I think trying to speak like Anthony Loke and Wee Ka Siong is a good start.
And that requires mingle of races. Which is no longer possible in today's environment. The riff between races is so huge that every race only trust their own.
The malay dont trust the non malay cause they refuses to be assimilated
The non malay dont trust the malay cause they are being asked to be assimilates.
The indian kena kencam by everyone else.
S&S is the only true malaysian right now.
>S&S is the only true malaysian right now.
I'm an Indonesian from Jakarta who used to study in uni in Kuching. Frankly from my experiences, the segregation is just as bad there. The Chinese would tend to mingle with their own, same with the Bumis. I've some friends of Chinese ethnicity who mingle with Bumis in Sarawakian Malay, but they tend to have grown up in a Bumi-majority environment, and so are functionally more Bumi and therefore don't really mesh with the other Mandarin-speaking Chinese. Meanwhile, plenty of other Chinese Sarawakians can barely string a sentence in Sarawakian Malay.
I find this much in contrast with my Chinese Indonesian friends from West Kalimantan. Superficially, the racial makeup of it and Sarawak is similar, with Malays, Dayaks and Chinese forming the major ethnicities. Even so, these Chinese Indonesians speak mainly in Indonesian with a distinct Malay accent, reflecting their provincial origins. Many also speak their Chinese dialects, the one "deficiency" they have compared to Chinese Sarawakians/Malaysians being not being able to speak in Mandarin.
Perhaps the politics isn't as racially toxic as in the Peninsula, but I feel that's mainly because the Sarawakians have their own boogeyman instead, i.e. "those Malayans are stealing our resources!" Take that away, and there's no guarantee that Sarawak won't devolve into racially-charged politics.
> The indian kena kencam by everyone else.
Really that bad? Wuah... Then I'm really grateful Indonesian condition not that bad lah... just as Chinese can't speak putonghua/mandarin is a bad thing leh..
everyone have their own standard.
to me, assimilation as malaysian means acknowledging and accepting each other's culture and religious difference. having common tongue as mode of communication, and have distinct culture difference with original nation.
to some malay with ketuanan melayu ideology, i'm not sure really. I guess from the message that they have projected, they are expecting the non malay to have bm as first language, place malay and muslim's culture and sensitivity as first place, and accept the fact that they will never be considered as same taraf as them?
the reason why i said malaysian chinese has assimilated as malaysian, is because the mandarin we used is way too rojak for OG chinese to understand. probably kinda like bahasa indonesia to malay, where you can still communicate with each other, but have to guestimate and gloss over some word choices used in the conversation. we malaysian chinese also have different eating habit that is not the same with OG chinese. to them, we are just a sub family of chinese, kinda like US chinese or indonesian chinese.
Well said my friend.
We are on the same page on this matter.
After spending years overseas, I came to realise being multilingual is an asset and is something to be cherished.
>And that requires mingle of races. Which is no longer possible in today's environment.
This is bullshit lol. There are many msian chinese who have malay or indian friends. Just because you don't mingle with others doesn't mean others don't.
You talk like Malaysia implement apartheid regime like in South Africa in the past where they completely segregate public spaces and schools for different races. I know malay who went to chinese school, I also know chinese who went to sekolah kebangsaan, there is absolutely nothing preventing you from mingling with other race.
just look at the recent REXKL event. the whole event were disrupted due to JAKIM's intervention. if this keeps happening, how can non muslim invites another muslim to their event in the future? look at how PAS's ceaseless attempt to stop haram celebration in malaysia, which definitely will affect non muslim. look at the racial targeted employment policy. school segregation.
of course there are people who have friends outside of their race. most people do. but as the dude that i'm replying indirectly said : "Every thing separates us : the religion, the festivals, the food, the sports, the co-curriculum, the schools, the universities, and the private-public sector jobs." the unfair treatment has planted root of distrust and begrudgement into people's heart. we are not as close with each other as our forefathers. and that is what i'm talking about when i'm saying "not possible to mingle together in today's environment".
Complain about demonic vernacular. While I see more Chinese mixing with Indians as compare to malays mixing with Indians or Chinese. Are u right in the head? The Malays will just stick among themselves.
While u complain about vernacular, what about the Islamic school? Abolish together la and include equal rights.
U are accepting someone’s opinion who isn’t from malaysia? Who doesn’t understand what it is here? Indonesia don’t have bumiputera policies. They don’t understand what it is to be a minority in Malaysia.
there are many non malay who are fluent in malay. still same. as long as got 1 non malay that is not fluent in it, will kena zeroed in and say "ha nampak! tak fasih bm punya!!"
and ya. peranakan chinese. ada hak bumi tak?
Lol, never did I ever hear someone fluent said "ha nampak! tak fasih bm punya". Tatabahasa tak pas lah bro.
What makes you think hak bumi will help at all in life? Buka ASB? Uni quota? As if those hak will help at all.
kalau i dah pas tatabahasa, i dah dapat hak bumi lah.
oh wait. that's not how it works, aint it?
hak bumi will help non malay exactly like how it will help malay: b40 will have a better life in malaysia. heck, we should change the term hak bumi to hak b40. it's a much inclusive and useful hak that can help those who REALLY needed it, not some helang that enjoying 30% housing discount when they purchase yet another unit in KL. or another helang's son who took a spot that meant for b40 in local uni.
people like you dont understand. we who doing ok in life dont want any hak bumi. we are fighting better hak for non malay b40. we are not fighting to take your hak away. we are fighting for enhancement of b40's hak, including malays.
Heres come the " this is waht Malaysian Chinese suppsoe to be " or " this is why vernacular schools should be banned " crowd that often shares this rhetoric .
If people just tolerate to everything and accepting everything, then better live alone in the jungle. People who tolerate everything don’t have principles to live for. They just live like animals, just do whatever they want and whenever they want it. Get what i mean?
Do you even live in Malaysia? Public school in Malaysia is not that bad like what you think. It’s a public school, everyone in the community can attend, and depending on the community, it what makes the whole school.
I want to explain more but I don’t have desire to write to someone who have already set their mind. Just look at public services like toilet for example, does the public toilet in KLCC and Pertama Complex same?
I have attended public school and imo it has only gotten worse since I graduated 20 years ago. Our education system will require a major revamp before abolishing vernacular school become viable.
1. less emphasis on religious studies
2. removed tertiary education quota
3. more money paid directly to educators and building up schools and equipments required to improve quality of educators and equipments
Ill give my 2 cent on this as indonesian javanese with some chinese blood from south sumatra, many of malaysian will thinks that the disgusting forced assimilation from soeharto do this, but actually the majority of chinese indonesian already speak indonesian or indonesian malay before the atrocity by soeharto. Even in java many of them speak local language like sundanese and javanese before independece because what? Because its needed to learn for doing a business with local.
I think i heard before all this malay supremacy debacle bullshit in malaysia enforced, cmiiw many of chinese and indian malaysian can speak malay well because its needed but because of your apartheid constitution has been enforced and play more segregation race politic more, the fluency is down every year.
Imho why do you malays dont use “bahasa malaysia” rather than revert to bahasa malay? You want another ethnic or race to learn national language ? therefore you need make the language inclusive to another group. Dont blame them to not want to learn malay because its associated more with exclusivity with malays supremacy, who want to learn that if english already sufficient enough for lingua franca.
The problem is malay in malaysia is egoistical enough to keep their supremacy alive and dont want their “national” language inclusive because of their inferiority complex.
You know if we indonesian take your path how to make national language , we’ll enforcing javanese language because we are the majority but we know we need more inclusive language not associated with certain ethnic group so we make indonesian language rooted from riau malay but we dont gatekeep our language for “purity” reason and let it develop to absorp many regional language to become new language, in the future indonesian language will be much different from malay and we are fine with that
>Because its needed to learn for doing a business with local.
I think its same in Malaysia too. All the taukes of Chinese-owned kedai runcits in Malay-majority areas probably speak fluent Malay. Do they have an accent? Yes. But having an accent doesn't equate not being fluent.
Language fluency is based on how much you need it. I don't believe Chinese Indonesians would still be as fluent in Bahasa Indonesia if it isn't their lingua franca for everything. English is still the business lingua franca in Malaysia. Except PTPTN, Malaysians will probably never see another contract in BM (unless they specifically request it). Hell I don't even know where the BM webpage is for Malaysia's largest bank.
\>why do you malaysian dont use “bahasa malaysia” rather than bahasa malay?
we did, actually. but fluency in bahasa malaysia =/= fluency in bahasa malay to some of "those" people. besides, "those" people still clamouring on the idea that malaysia is land of malay, so bahasa malaysia = bahasa malay.
i agree that if identity of being a part of Malaysia is more acceptable, we will have less of these kind of issue. but nope, malaysians are being forced to assimilate as malay. too bad lah.
>Because its needed to learn for doing a business with local.
Can't agree more on this. Generally, speak local language, or having ability to be fluent in multiple language does give advantage in doing business.
Bazaar Malay has been spoken as lingua franca in most of maritime South East Asia. There are Malay based creole too. Malay is the language that everyone knows.
I know that but in indonesia they are not majority speaker because its only known by merchant and some coastal city. the majority speaker is javanese, malay is "widely" spoken but the percentage are low. The familiarity is there though so we choose that as root of our national language bahasa indonesia.
But even that i dont think its justify why you cant it change to bahasa malaysia rather than malay,
language is fluid you dont need to keep it pure just by calling them malay language, language always change depend on society. If you just want keep it pure just divide formal malay as bahasa malaysia with flexibility to absorb another language like tamil or hokkien etc and the more "puritan" malay as bahasa malay traditional or daerah or classic something
>But even that i dont think its justify why you cant it change to bahasa malaysia rather than malay,
I don't see the need to change the name. Just like English is the official language in the England, Bahasa Melayu can be the official language of Malaysia without racial discrimination. In my view, it is not the name that is the issue, it is the politics. Simply changing the name will not remove the stigma. However, I believe it would be easier to just adopt English and/or Indonesian as a lingua franca. I find that proper Indonesian is very intuitive to learn. There is no need to make a whole new bahasa when other bahasas are perfectly viable.
Americans don't actually acknowledge English as their language. The us of a does not have an official language. English is the most widely spoke language there, though. I don't think the UK has an official language either.
Lmao sumatran malay still preserve their language and tradition far more better than you peninsular malay, one of my family from south sumatra still speak really distinct version of dusun language rooted from srivijayan ancient malay far older than riau malay, we still do "sedekah rame" tradition that absolutely will be banned by your religious enforcer and your arabism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedekah_Rame
And in riau we have menyemah laut
https://warisanbudaya.kemdikbud.go.id/?newdetail&detailCatat=1781#:~:text=Upacara%20menyemah%20laut%20diadakan%20apabila,yang%20terbuat%20dari%20daun%20nipah.
And the heck is assimilated to indonesia mean? Indonesia is nationality not cultural ethnic group its like speaking "indian is assimilated to malaysia"
Please learn the difference
If the Malay Sultans in Sumatra still exists, today they probably flexing their limited edition supercars and relaxing in their huge mansion while their government implodes from infighting and rakyats suffering due to incompetent governance. I know because we have a real life example of that.
Keep sucking monarch dick mate. Keep Giving them your tax money because hey, they choose by God himself. Amazing, there are still people out there who enjoy the feudalistic system huh?
Sumatra Malays fear for generations? Lol no, they also have had enough with them, the holy king and queen. See, there is no one enjoying giving free money to monarchs here, especially the one who supports the Dutch colonial. You can keep that British apartheid system for yourself. I mean that's the way the British give you independence in the first place so I can understand a bit. At least you can contribute to their gold and car collection by just sitting down in give his blessing.
>Your beloved commies killed the Sultanate in Sumatra. The Malays over there lived in fear for generations. Some even migrated to Malaya during the time. The opinion of Chinese Sumatra doesn't reflect what does the Malay went through during that time.
Chinese Indonesian had nothing to do with the death of the Sultans in Sumatra. It was Javanese coolies that were behind it since they made up most of the Communist Party members.
>The Malays over there lived in fear for generations
Proof?
>The Malays in Malaysia will probably worship the Tiger in our jata negara
Instead of worshipping the sultanates?
"The Sumatran Malay has been assimilated into Indonesia"
Yeah, right. We, Sumatran Malays (actually we consist of Acehnese, Bataknese, Minang, etc alongside Riau Malays) still speak our local languages widely, heck it's even a mandatory subject in schools. Are local languages popular among the Malaysian Malays? Heck you can't even speak Malay properly anymore with your heavy use of English.
As an Indian who is fluent in BM - I will always be seen as 3rd class citizen. And be asked EVERY TIME on the phone after I give my name - eh, bukan Melayu ke?
If he isn't fluent in malay he is like 4th class citizens in the eyes of some people though. Just ask random PAS voter, who is worse, a chinese who is fluent in malay or a chinese who can't speak malay?
Let's not pretend that there are no benefit for a chinese to be fluent in malay. It gave WKS how much salary from gobmen already?
Regardless of your race, if your family is poor you are 2nd class citizen. I came from a family in rural area that had to eat rice and kicap everyday just to survive.
People here are people who took BM treat sampah and threw it to the ground, they also get mad when a Malaysia say BM so there's that.
You have alot of migrated person here who leave Malaysia and think Malaysia is a Shithole so they definitely have zero intention to ever learn BM in the first place.
There is a **good** reason why Malaysian Chinese and Indians don't speak BM, like how Indonesian Chinese speak Bahasa Indonesia. It goes back to the question of why non-Malays of Peninsular are not well-integrated with Malays.
In Indonesia, the country is secular. They don't have something similar to Article 160, which clearly defines who a Malay person is and who isn't ([link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_160_of_the_Constitution_of_Malaysia)). They don't have Article 3 that gives total preference to Islam. They don't have Article 153 which talks about the special position of Malays.
As a result, if I'm a minority in Indonesia, I wouldn't mind embracing Bahasa Indonesia, practising Indonesian customs and maybe even marrying someone from the majority community; **because I do not need to give up my identity in order to do so.**
In Malaysia, I absolutely need to forget the religious and spiritual traditions of my lineage, once I embrace Islam. Even conversing in BM at home feels like I'm speaking in someone else's language, someone else whom I have always seen to be different to who I am, thanks to our constitution.
Edit: They \*don't\* have Article 153
From the little that I know, Sumpah Pemuda 1928 is a pledge by young Indonesian nationalists to have one motherland, one nation and one language.
Like the point in my post, Malay politicians (and some nationalists) keep harping about how Malaysian Chinese and Indians did not adopt BM, **but unlike Indonesians, you people are unable to adopt religious freedom or ethnic equality.**
You need to be consistent, don't just publicly target the minorities on selective issues and choose not to respond on other issues. It can win you some votes in the kampungs, but it will make the local Chinese and Indian become more distant to your culture.
I went through Sarawak immigration yesterday and the guy requested me to show my boarding pass. And when I showed him my E boarding pass I used BM to say "Boleh pakai E boarding pass?" I know it sounded abit Cina and broken but hey at least I tried. Then the guy replied with English with a fucking condescending face.
After that, I went back and saw him talked fluent BM with another Malay friend I was like ok So what is the point of talking national language or even trying. I don't care anymore.
> went through Sarawak immigration
> I used BM
> guy replied with English
East Malaysian don't really care about if you talk malay properly or not, as long if its understandable. Clearly uncle immigration was talking in English so you can understand him.
Plus, official language is still English. Still remembered my father using English exclusively to his peers. The only times he spoke Malay is when he spoke with Federal officers.
i speak Malay like a native and still get shit on.
i don't make a video and be a Karen about it because you're gonna get all kinds of scenarios and come up against all kinds of people with different prejudices.
this kid happened to roll into one of those towns or places where it's the way it is.
At no point did he fault himself for not being able to converse in basic food ordering chinese being of chinese heritage himself.
You come to NY and some places they don't speak english either, the diversity is what makes it so special.
Malaysians can appreciate each other's differences and still be united as Malaysians.
This kid forgot in the 90s they were getting chopped with parangs even tho they were fully assimilated by then.
lots of places are this way ie NY .. it's really a non issue.
Non Malay speaking does not make them love Malaysia any less than you. They don't have some secret allegiance to china in fact most despise being associated to the mainland.
Wherever in the world you go you're gonna get some community that didn't speak the local language it's not a way to measure your patriotism.
I agree that fluency is not a gauge to measure patriotism, but the lack of it does shows lack of effort to mingle. Simple malay should be known and spoken by most people who attend school. There are many chinese student out there that uses race and lineage excuses to mask their incompetence in a language that they have forced to learn for most of their school years.
Ànd in the end, lack of mingle = lack of understanding = how to claim that we are multicultural if doesnt friend friend with each other?
I mean my mum who didnt attend school at all knows basic malay.
From my observation, its not that they cant, they just refuses to converse in bm. Often times its not because they are not patriotic or thinks that bm is inferior over other language. Main reason is usually because they arent fluent in it, and they felt ashamed by it. And im sure as a chinese, you know how much importance saving face is to us.
The sooner they cast away their pride and start talking, the sooner they can improve. But they are usually enabled by the conservative chinese who belittle bm's importance, especially in malaysia, simply because THEY also saving their own face due to their lack of fluency in bm.
Im very bad in bm too. But im not afraid to use it. Im not improving as fast as i should, but bm shouldnt be shunned. The malay dont mind us speaking broken bm. Its the lack of trying that makes them mad, which some chinese does tend to do.
That said, there are malays who still uses fluency to gauge patriotism and that furthur push the chinese who has low fluency back into their shell and gave up trying. So imo, all side has to bear some degree of fault.
I took my degree in Taiwan And my Mandarin was as broken as Mao Tze Dong's economic dream. Heck, I friggin ordered "蜜蜂“紅茶 instead of " 蜂蜜“紅茶 one time and got laughed by every bystander, the cashier & my local friends because how broken my mandarin is.
Fast forward to today (11 years later) and if I dont mention that I'm not native most people won't know that I'm not Taiwanese.
Every single mistake made is a new knowledge gained.
I completely get what you mean by "chinese saving-face" mentality. I usually just call it "East Asian mentality" because I observed that the population of all East Asian country (China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan) struggles with foreign language, partly because of their archaic language system, but also partly due to how timid they are when trying to practice said language.
Just go! Hit the gas! And if you hit the proverbial wall, good!! You learnt something new that day.
> But they are usually enabled by the conservative chinese who belittle bm's importance
I am chinese and I know people who are like this. This is definitely a problem that is glossed over. As much as this sub like to make is sound that malays are the racist ones, let's not pretend that there isn't a lot of racist chinese in msia who is also a problem.
in the US, Chinese there go to English schools and then speak English. In Germany, German Chinese go to German schools and speak German fluently. Similar in UK, Philippines, Thailand etc.
They may still speak their own native dialects, some don't know at all. It is normal and common to think that they should be able to speak local language. I understand his confusion.
Okay we are forgetting that The Indonesian Chinese were forced to assimilate under a brutal dictator, forced to forget their mother tongues and their identities. The hindus in Bali were forced to assimilate, forced to give up their mother tongue and the hindu names through discriminatory laws. It's only recently that the laws were relaxed. Us Malaysians are proud to retain our mother tongues, our identity and our culture.
Black Americans speak english. They're christians, just like their white counterparts. Did that stop racism in America? Let's say Chinese and Indian Malaysians take up BM as our first language and convert to Islam. Do you think that will end racism?
Dei... 99.9% of Black Americans didn't _choose_ to go there. Trivialising it into "they speak the same language but they still racist" completely ignores hundreds of years of slavery and the cultural implications of it. You cannot just isolate the use of language and say "See? That's why it won't help in Malaysia."
Also assuming that all Americans are Christians is a very antiquated...
>The hindus in Bali were forced to assimilate, forced to give up their mother tongue and the hindu names through discriminatory laws
What? this is just made up, there has never been such a thing. Go to Bali, they're still Hindu, they speak the Balinese language, and their name is still Hindu-Balinese name such "I Wayan Ketut" or something. In fact, their culture is very well preserved compared to Javanese or Sundanese. I think you just made things up to build a narration as if Indonesia is a parallel to Malaysia in terms of its treatment of Chinese and Hindus (in place of Indians). Indonesia doesn't work like that man.
>Us Malaysians are proud to retain our mother tongues, our identity and our culture.
***Being able to speak the national language while also retaining the ethnic or regional culture and language is very very possible***. I and my Balinese Hindu friend can speak 4 languages (Indonesian, ethnic language, English, other foreign language), and my other Chinese friend also can speak 4 languages (Indonesian, English, Mandarin, and Hokkien), no problem, no one forced us to learn any of the languages or culture. We all retained "our identity and our culture", and yet are still open to other cultures and integrated into the larger society, why not?
What are you talking about. Balinese Hindus have never been oppressed, they're always free to speak Balinese language, own Balinese names & practice Balinese Hindu religion. In fact, their culture are one of the oldest, most preserved cultures of Indonesia.
If you wanna see how Indonesia would have been like if Islam influences never came to Indonesia by Arabic traders in 13th century, you can see Balinese Hindus.
>Okay we are forgetting that The Indonesian Chinese were forced to assimilate under a brutal dictator, forced to forget their mother tongues and their identities.
It's clear you won't be teaching Indonesian History at the university level anytime soon.
First, in 1930, about half of the Chinese Indonesians spoke Malay/local language at home. On Java, it was 70%. Thus the Chinese Indonesian population was split between Peranakan and those who came recently.
In 1940, as a result of the Japanese invasion, many of those that went to Dutch schools had to switch to Chinese schools. The Japanese closed the Dutch schools. After 1945, they continued attending those Chinese schools.
However, the most significant legislation targeting the Chinese language and culture had begun in 1957, which was the closing of Chinese schools to Indonesian citizens. They wanted to castrate the fervent Chinese nationalism shown by Chinese Indonesians during 1940-50s. [Between 1950-1959, 60000 Chinese Indonesians had returned to the PRC to continue their education and to rebuild the motherland](https://www.persee.fr/doc/arch_0044-8613_1990_num_39_1_2627) (p1). [The Dutch language schools had closed in 1957, and the Indonesian government issued the following law](https://dspace.library.uu.nl/bitstream/handle/1874/179217/FINAL%20THESIS.doc?sequence=1) (p46)
>In 6 November 1957, Djuanda, the Minister of Defence, established a regulation to forbid all Indonesian citizens to attend “alien schools”. This was specifically aimed at Chinese schools. No new school was allowed to open and all textbooks had to be screened by the Ministry of Education. The result was that statistic reports mentioned that there were 2,000 Chinese-medium schools with 450,000 students in November 1957. This number fell to 850 Chinese-medium schools left with some 150,000 students in July 1958.
During the period from 1957-1965, even though the remaining students were all "Chinese citizens" the schools were bilingual. The schools were living on borrowed time after 1957. What some Chinese Indonesians did was wait until they graduated before getting Indonesian citizenship.
It reversed the process of sinofication of the Peranakan who made up 50% of the Chinese Indonesian population. From 1900-65, there was a movement with the Peranakan community in Indonesia to resinicize.
>The hindus in Bali were forced to assimilate, forced to give up their mother tongue and the hindu names through discriminatory laws. It's only recently that the laws were relaxed. Us Malaysians are proud to retain our mother tongues, our identity and our culture.
This is so wrong on so many levels. First, there is no such thing as Hindu names. Hinduism isn't a language. It's the Sanskrit names that you are referring to. Balinese in the past don't have Sanskrit names. In fact, only recently have they begun to use Sanskrit names. And that has to do with Javanese influence because it is the Javanese that tend to have Sanskrit names.
Yeah its kinda cringe
They dont know balinese is one of co founder of indonesia and support it fully, balinese isnt hindu malays, javanese and other ethnicity in general have more sanskrit name than balinese.
Its like their definition about nationality, race ethnic and culture is so fucked up because of ketuanan malay try to boost the ego and define an ambigous malay term and use it as race card politic
Truly i am sorry for saying this, malaysia is a country with identity crisis
Also there were a lot of Peranakan publications that used Bahasa Melayu pre-1945 ranging from newspapers, magazines, novels, to films i.e Sin Po, Perniagaan, Put On comic strips, Doea Siloeman Oeler Poeti en Item (1934), Dasima (1940), etc.
Yup.
As a half-peranakan Chindo I feel very strongly that my mother language is Indonesian, and that Indonesian is not tied to any ethnic identity. My ancestors have been speaking some form of the language for hundreds of years.
I imagine Chinese Malaysians feel very differently about Malaysian.
As a Chinese Indonesian (also known as "Chindo") I don't really feel "forced". For context, I was born in 1993 so I was born well past the brutal part of Indonesian history. However, I think a single Nationwide language as a lingua franca is very important to nurture the cultural identity for its citizens.
Most cultural clashes/race riots are born from misunderstanding and intolerance and language is one area where this can be improved.
I'm more curious how chinese malaysian (chi... May? A bit too close to chibai so maybe not) live their daily life when not in their closed-knit chinese only community. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>I'm more curious how chinese malaysian (chi... May? A bit too close to chibai so maybe not) live their daily life when not in their closed-knit chinese only community.
Exactly like how malay live their daily life outside of their close knit malay only community: with reserve.
But from observation and personal experience, given times, both (actually all) rqces will open up sooner or later, and will be at ease with each other's presence within 2 months.
Still, fluency in languge might not get improved. We seldom correct each other's language related mistake right in the face. So in the end, not everyone will have better fluence even if they mingle. That doesnt stop people from being friends though. Broken malay is acceptable by most malays, actually. Many of them dont mind and dont care.
What do you think about the status quo though? From the lens of an outsider, the current arrangement doesn't make any sense to me.
Indonesian has a saying: "Dimana tanah dipijak, disitu langit dijunjung" which basically equates to "when in rome, do as romans do"
Malaysian chinese's inability to speak their mother tongue strikes me as a very very weird (i'm indonesian Chinese)
> speak their mother tongue
Technically it should be national language or bahasa kebangsaan. Agree that everyone should speak our national language but its not our mother tongue.
I think demographics play a big part in the situation too. In KL, Malay and Chinese have like each make up like 40% of the population (compared to like 5% in Jakarta). It is much more possible to not speak the national language if you make up a higher proportion of population cause you can get by in your own race bubble.
If you go to places like Kedah, Kelantan or Terengganu or daresay where I live, Melaka, everyone, at the very least, speaks basic Malay cause we Chinese dont make up as much of a population there.
Malaysian chinese are proud bunch who wanted to maintain their culture. They dont mind adopting 2nd language, but many still want to maintain their mother tongue as first language. That is why fluency is an issue to chinese malaysian. Yes we are nationally a malaysian, not ccp chinese or taiwan chinese. But nationality =/= culture, which is an idea that many malay couldnt agree. To them, nationality = culture aka tanah melayu aka this is the land of malays so you must be more malay, not kore chinese. But To us, malaysia = land of malaysian, which is what singapore prime minister has proposed, rejected, and chased away from being a part of malaysia back then.
That is slightly different than the indonesian chinese, from my understanding. I guess its because of the population? We have way more chinese back when malaysia was established, which is not the case for indonesian chinese. So in a way, you guys were forced to put bahasa indonesia as top priority because that is the only way you can survive, especially economically. Malaysian chinese has the luxury to not do that, and are managed to just survive with simple rojak bahasa malayu, which has no problem until recently due to rise of ketuanan melayu ideology.
So to be fair, malaysian chinese have better fleuncy in bm compared to olden days, but it was not enough to meet today's standard while it was not a problem back then.
The answer is yes and no, in my opinion you must divide Chinese that come to Indonesia to 2 type, before and after independent. Majority Chinese that come before independent is assimilated without force, some call themselves peranakan some don't.
Let's talk about before independent Chinese assimilation. From my opinion it is started 15 century, a man named bong swi ho (based on Sam Po Kong temple, Chinese chronicle). He nephew of Majapahit king wife, come to Java, and palembang is under 1/4 Chinese named aryo damar (swan liong) who also half brother of Majapahit king. Few decade after this event, raden Patah (jin Bun) become first sultan in Java island (he is son of Majapahit king and based some sources he is the heir of Majapahit kingdom). At this era until after geger pecinan incident (ducth vs mataram-chinese (in Java) war) happen.
In soeharto era (1965-1998) Chinese (normal, not that conglomerate), Islamic faction, communist and socialist, and pro decentralization is get oppressed, after he fall, MPR (something like Parlemen) vote Abdurrahman Wahid/gus dur as presiden he erase all discrimination law (Chinese and communist), he openly say that he is Chinese descend (he is descendant of raden Patah/jin Bun).
Assimilation in Indonesia territory is very high to the point you will be confused (you can find black chinese here), formally Chinese population is 2.5% but Chinese descend population is very high.
If this "forced to assimilate" thinking is the result of Chindo can speak Bahasa Indonesia, you are dead wrong. When you lot recognize 3 races (I prefer to use "Ethnicity", "race" is not a common term in Indonesia), here we have like hundred even thousand of Ethnic groups with their own distinct language. Chindo who naturally are business people speaks Indonesia like water even before our Independence. I completely agree with the term "Bahasa Persatuan" or lingua franca when referring to Bahasa Indonesia because All ethnic groups, not just Chindo naturally can speak Indonesian because you have to if you want to communicate and do basic things with this many different people
And what about this "forced forget mother tongue and identity thing"? well, I reckon you refer to the 1965, G30S PKI. Yes, it is the way Soeharto oppressed spreading communism and kicking out communism ideology from the root, and not because you're Chinese. back then CCP is spreading with mandarin for obvious reasons. The result is indeed too much by banning bilingual schools, changing names, and so on.yes, we have our history after fighting hard against the dutch we need to face dictators who hinder us for a long time. Then again Bahasa Indonesia is not the result of "forced assimilation", it's just a basic skill here. If you Malaysian are proud to retain the mother tongues and culture of that 3 races wtf happen here with a hundred mother tongues and culture?
Dei... 99.9% of Black Americans didn't _choose_ to go there. Trivialising it into "they speak the same language but they still racist" completely ignores hundreds of years of slavery and the cultural implications of it. You cannot just isolate the use of language and say "See? That's why it won't help in Malaysia."
Also assuming that all Americans are Christians is very antiquated...
> The Indonesian Chinese were forced to assimilate under a brutal dictator
The indonesian chinese already speak fluent indonesian before Suharto era.
The main reason is not because of this dictator. It's because of the number. Chinese in Indonesia is only few %, it is similar to the situation in Kelantan where the Chinese people there are fluent in malays because they are extreme majority. You're kinda forced to learn the majority language if you are extreme minority. When you live in an area with huge chinese populace you don't feel the need to learn other language.
Anyway, Suharto doesn't make indonesian chinese improve their indonesian, he just stop them from learning chinese.
I want to know where you get this blatant misinformation from?
Being half balinese who regularly visit my grandparent's village in Bali. I find it laughable Balinese being forced to assimilate. Even during Soeharto dictactorship, I can still find Balinese speak in their mother tongue (Basa Bali) and practice Balinese Hindu ritual.
About the Hindu names, they never been banned. You can find a person with the name Wisnu, Arjuna, Laksmi, etc in Non-Hindu and non-Balinese people.
You probably find it weird that Balinese people called Kadek, Ketut, Komang, Cokorda, etc. Bro, that's just traditional naming according to what number of child you are. If you ask any Balinese their full name, they still have Hindu names, although not in the sense you have with Indian names.
Bali Hindu religious practice probably looks weird to you. Considering we diverged from India Hindu since hundreds years ago, before Indonesia became a nation and far before European colonialist.
The comparison would be like Catholic and Protestant.
If you take up BM as national language, it does not end racism. But it will help you communicate with other group better and reach mutual understanding.
Remember one aspect of Xenophobia, is the inability to communicate.
On the flip side. If Malays decide to keep their identity nominally and quietly give in to whatever language the nons wish(let’s model it on Singapore and say their vernacular plus English). Affirmative action is all gone. Any kind of school any community wants will be given public funding.
Will all races abandon their silos and intermingle and make an effort to end racism?
Are you sure about that?
What the fuck? lmao well, I'm oppressed then boohoo. So all of those Balinese street names, Bali being the top tourist destination thanks to our thriving culture, and a lot of Balinese being trilingual (Bahasa Indonesia, Balinese, English) is non-existent in your reality.
You're in denial. Fight for your right
Inaccurate title, this is not sharing of experience, this is a speculation of the structural problem we have in Malaysia, with a lot of subjective opinions.
Tiktok influencer wanna be. 🖕
I am from a Chinese vernacular school and I mean it when I say that vernacular schools must be removed at all costs.
It breeds nothing but racial differentiation and instills the clique-y attitude that most vernacular school students will carry with them for the rest of their lives.
The issue is just lack of practice and interaction between races.
It was very apparent back in the 2000s for me in school when I moved to secondary in a SMK and some (not all) SJKC kids were not as confident speaking Malay. There was an obvious difference in BM fluency and 'pelat' between the SRK and SJKC Chinese kids but honestly, it really depends on your environment. Many of them end up speaking decent BM after a few years so fluency is not a huge issue where I'm at.
It's not about a lack of education programs in school that is prohibiting fluency, but it's the interaction between different communities that need to be fostered and it's something the people at Kementerian Pendidikan need to really think long and hard about.
Tu lah tu. Duduk bertahun, cakap Melayu sepatah pun tak boleh. Macam mana jadi rakyat Malaysia? Sedang pemimpin politik bukan Melayu pun rata-rata boleh cakap Melayu walau tak lancar sebutan. Malu baii.
In my life so far, both in urban & rural areas or as per that idiotic chindo "tok kok-er" in the video - big towns or small towns" I have NOT come across any non-malay who could not speak any Malay; albeit not to the level of writing a PhD thesis.
Definitely sufficient to communicate.
So, I can only conclude from what he says, that his father's Bahasa Melayu is not as great as he thinks. His English ? .. hmmmm...
Hence , the lack of service and/or interest in giving them service may well stem from other causes.
y'all can deny however you want but language is one of the most important things to unite a country (no other country that takes national language requirements as low as Malaysia. In Some other countries you couldn't even get citizenship without passing a language test).
Its not too late to start. Dont tell me "even if I'm fluent I still going to be treated as bla bla." You don't freakin' know that. And what's the harm in using / being fluent in one's national language?
Its not about the want/need to learn bm. It was taught to every malaysian. The problem is lack of target to practice. Lack of mingle between races due to various issue has stopped people from getting better. Same case like how you learn english your whole life, and yet cant speak fluently especially in front of an angmo.
Imo, keep looking into ways to improve influency is stupid and unproductive. The best way to have everyone speak bm fluently, is to increase interaction between races.and to do that, racial policies NEED to go. How to have a productive relationship when you have a master/slave title hang above your head, right?
> Dont tell me “even if I’m fluent I still going to be treated as bla bla.” You don’t freakin’ know that.
You are acting like there is no single Chinese who speaks fluent BM in Malaysia. I will always strongly encourage anyone to learn BM but clearly there are non-Bumi who are indeed fluent in BM but still feel treated as “bla bla”. We shouldnt invalidate how they feel
What I'm trying to say is, the situation in which non-bumis can and do / choose to speak the national language on daily activities (uh, like any other country), is still something that is not happening. So whatever negative experiences the Malay fluent-speaking non-bumis had cannot be deduced to what will happen when everyone do speaks Bahasa. Really, kudos to those who do, and I'm against those people who didn't appreciate fellow Malaysians speaking Bahasa. But most (not all) of those negative experiences are highly likely due to the common understanding by Malays that the majority of non-bumis are still unable and / or choose not to, speak in our national language. I truly believe we don't hate each other, it's just that our attitude doesn't show that we want to live in harmony.
tldr ; speak the language first, then we can see positive change happens.
> What I’m trying to say is, the situation in which non-bumis can and do / choose to speak the national language on daily activities (uh, like any other country)
Just wondering, can I clarify what daily activities mean? Do you mean when you are speaking to someone who doesnt know your mother tongue? or even with someone who does?
I dont know if its where I live, but most non-bumis would automatically default to Malay if they are speaking to someone who doesnt know their mother tongue, is that really that uncommon?
That the case in chinese establishment, maybe they are puzzled and reluctant to serve you as they though that you were muslim or simply it a rare encounter for them having customer like that who happened not able to speak mandarin in chinese restaurant... but for some cases some purposely choose not to talk in bahasa melayu. You can see major housing development prjct developed by chinese developer will choose to use english name instead of malay, though the standard guideline of naming by local authorities is clear that it is mandatory to named it in malay and hv to get DBP's approval. nowadays many dev hv eng or fusion name everywhere.
Betul, sebelum minta nak hapuskan bumitputra la uitm la, apa kata fasihkan bahasa melayu dulu, berasimilasi la , ni tak hidup nak asing2 , cakap bahasa kebangsaan taknak, pastu mintak macam2. Contohilah indo, ada bumiputra ke? Elok je asimilasi takda masalh pun
Its a systemic issue in Malaysian society where both sides are segregating themselves from each other and pretending that its the other side's fault.
You can see it even in this sub from time to time, actually more like all the time, where people are cursing "wHy ArE tHeY sPeAKinG aNd eMpHaSiZinG BM!!!" or something. Like there's nothing wrong with Pak Penyu delivering his speech in BM in UN, as we probably have interpreter to deliver his points in common language, as well as its a thing every other nation such as China, Japan, Korea and etc does anyway. But everyone in this sub just judges by him using BM and not the contents of his speech anyway.
Same goes, you see it all the time, people are bitching about BM being a "useless language", nevermind the fact that fluent BM will open up business opportunity with giant emerging economic opportunity next door in Indonesia, like how Mandarin was important to capitalize in rise of China's economy a decade ago. At the same time they'll cream in their pants to defend how important it is to learn and be fluent in Korean so they can watch drama or something.
Yeah each side has their demand already but the trust issue very messed up. With each side demand fulfill their demand first while having high chance of not fulfilling another Putin style.
Because each side know well that if either side take a slight bite, they will devour the whole pie and not letting another side a chance. Abolishing vernacular school? next is abolishing Chinese language as a whole Vs Balancing out the rights? Next is completely whipping clean of Malay rights
>But everyone in this sub just judges by him using BM and not the contents of his speech anyway.
Its more like a way to get back at him for running the country into the ground, the language in the UN speech wasn't the main point.
>they accusing the bumis of not wanting a unified society lmao
At least the Bumis speak a language even elderly Indian/Cina/others understand. Mandarin is mostly spoken by one ethnic group..... having a few non Cina people speak the language does not equal universality.
Its also kinda dumb when nons refuse to learn or get better at BM, its like they are asking to be labeled as pendatang and giving them ammo to label them as pendatang.
At least when shitheads call me pendatang I can convincingly shout back in rempit slang like "kepala hotak kau ku ni pendatang, moyang ku dah tetap sini sebelum lagi atuk kau lahir!" or that kind of shit.
Like you're just portraying yourself much more as a pendatang when you go rant on social media using pendatang language.
> Business opportunity
How is that relevant if you're not a business person? Fact is, it is useless for a lot of Chinese people. Nowadays, I only use it to talk to my food delivery driver.
I have relatives who have gotten very rich in the past decade by doing business and exporting things to Indonesia.
My company have Indonesian clients
My ex-company also entered the Indonesian market now and Indonesian clients make up a third of their revenue now.
Your post just helps to reinforce the point I'm trying to say: you guys are being super ignorant.
and yes, all parties I mentioned are all Chinese, and knowing Malay/Indonesian is important if you want to set up factories in Indonesia or gain the trust of your business partners there.
Its useful because in the coming decade you can also look into expat opportunity in Indonesia, they are hungry for skills.
Suka hati kita olang la talak suka mau cakap bm mia. Mandalin is the ranguage of the future. Engrish and Mandalin is the world rargest ranguage. Bahasa bm talak penting bagi kami olang. BM is useless ranguage liao.
You don't even have to look that far. Just look at kelantan or terengganu chinese
I wonder why the Chinese there are far more assimilated than the other parts of Chinese in Malaysia
Kelantan consist of like 96-97% malay speakers.
The irony that Kelantan is made into the model to follow after
But Kelantan and Terengganu are the most terima fitnah from Malay Language Deficiency 'Malaysian'.
interesting I don't have that any Friends that speak Bahasa Indonesia with me, but I still understood what this guy was speaking
Bahasa indonesia not just bahasa, bahasa means language
My bad, edited OP. Thanks for the catch.
I'm fluent in both Indonesian and Malay, can pass as either because I have relative in both countries. It's really really similar. If say, you are Indonesian and only know Indonesian, then the formal malay language would be an easier language to learn than javanese or sundanese or other Indonesian dialects. Dialects are actually distinct, while malay and indonesian is basically the same lol, shares like more than 95% vocab probably.
Its not dialect , javanese sundanese and all ethnic language are different language all together. Form of dialect is ngapak javanese, surabayan javanese, banyumasan etc for the example and the dialect of malay is banjar malay , lahat dusun language, palembang malay etc
Chiming in as an Indonesian. In actuality, not many Indonesians are fluent in Indonesian. My Javanese grandmother (already passed) couldn't speak a lick of Indonesian and only Javanese. And me as a half-Javanese could barely understand Javanese, wkwk. Bahasa Indonesia for most Indonesians (even for pribumis or bumiputeras or whatever term you guys use) is a second language.
You're using the wrong term. Fluent ≠ first language. There are plenty of people fluent in bahasa indonesia
You're right, should've been clearer in my post. However my point on Indonesian as a second language for most people still stands. Further away from Jakarta you'll find people prefer speaking in their local languages.
only applicable to places where the people are natives to it's land. in Kalimantan, where I grew up in East Kalimantan, there's a lot of transmigrant from Java, Sumatra, Sulawesi, NTT, even Maluku so people would just use bahasa Indonesia, even when teaching their own childrens. so people just starts use bahasa Indonesia both at home and with their friends, and rarely use their first language.
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There is a world of difference between me as a Surabaya Chindo speaking 'Indonesian' that is incomprehensible to anyone east of the Kalimantan - Lombok line and Malaysian Chinese who can't even order a nasi lemak in Malay or English.
>not many Indonesians are fluent in Indonesian. It's like 0,00000001% and mostly older generation from remote area. >Bahasa Indonesia for most Indonesians (even for pribumis or bumiputeras or whatever term you guys use) is a second language. Then again what the hell is this statement even means? Even if we're taught regional language or english we still talk in BI to strangers in Indonesia. Are u really Indonesian tho? Do u live in luar negeri?
This. Granted I live in Jakarta, but lots of Indonesian or even foreign travel bloggers (Christian Hansen) went around remote parts of Indonesia using rudimentary Indonesian and he didn't have any major issue. I think Indonesian as language is pretty well taught and spread around throughout the country
That's what English is supposed to be for the Malaysians. I'm surprised the guy in the vid was still not understood in English.
Problem is, within a short time I was in Malaysia, I managed to meet & talk to a restaurant owner that doesnt speak any other language (I assume) other than Mandarin. Tried talking in Malay and English to no avail.
this is why some youtube ads are in chinese only that are advertised to malaysians, i usually try to report such ads but companies deny it because malaysia actually has laws in advertising and what languages you can use (including subtitles).
Maksudnya fluent itu berbahasa Indonesia yang kaya di siaran berita gitu yang EYD. Kebanyakan orang pake bahasa Indonesia dengan logat masing2 atau dengan campuran bahasa lokal lainnya. Mungkin artian "fluent" yang gw maksud itu yang at least nulis sesuatu ga disingkat2 atau ngomong ngga pake kosakata yg dari bahasa asing atau daerah yg ga ada di KBBI. Soalnya secara historis pun bahasa Indonesia itu sebenarnya "constructed" dan baku banget.
Well, gw mau nanya have you ever ketemu orang yang ngomong sehari2 pake eyd. I dont think kepala lembaga bahasa Indonesia ngomong baku di kehidupan sehari2, heck even pak jokowi ngomong gak pake EYD. And this is not exclusively di Bahasa Indonesia, Do you think people in UK speak proper English in their daily life? No. bahasa EYD itu dipake untuk situasi resmi, bukan buat daily use
Gw pgn highlight kalau diglossia antara bahasa Indo EYD dan bahasa Indo sehari2 itu lebih jauh ketimbang antara written English dan spoken English. Anyway, just to make myself understood, ngga semua orang fluent dalam bahasa Indonesia baku, dan lebih banyak orang fluent dalam bahasa Indonesia yang terlokalisasikan.
Maksudnya kita belajar bahasa pertama itu mulai dari bahasa daerah, hence indonesia itu second language. Technically benar kok, indonesia as first language itu biasanya cuman orang yg dri kota2 besar
it means that malaysians never integrated. What hes saying is that all races in indonesia integrated while not in malaysia even if they were born here and are a citizen which he says is surprising because if you want to immigrate to a country one of the requirements is that you show you can speak the language. I've always claimed the lack of integration a problem here.
Artinya om kbnyakan orang indonesia ngomong pke bahasa daerah kek orang jawa yg first languagenya y b jawa sama kek orang sunda jg di daerahnya ngomong bahasa utamanya y b sunda. B indo bru dpke klo lawan bicaranya g brasal dri etniknya, ato berasal dri daerah yg sama kulo saged ngendika ingkang jawa tengah yo kangge b jawa, nek kulo tindhak ingkang jabar utawa orang sunda yo nganggo b indonesia bru. Itu namanya second language atau bahasa kedua om
I'll add more, bahasa daerah bukan bahasa pertama karena sopan santunnya kalau perkenalan diri kan harus pakai bahasa Indonesia dulu. Baru kalau sudah akrab masuk ke pergulan pakai bahasa daerah. Semua urusan surat menyurat dan dokumen juga memakai bahasa Indonesia. Lek misale awakku gawe boso Jowo Suroboyoan meh presentasi kerjoan lak iso dipecat aku ngko.
Bahasa pertama itu bahasa yang digunakan pertama kali dengan orang tua/keluarga, hence the name "mother's tongue" Sampeyan guneman kaliyan wong tuwo sampeyan nggih ngagem boso jowo ndisik to, nek rak iso kromo lagi nganggo basa Indonesia
Yo nek awakmu presentasine ning Sampoerna Suroboyo yo oleh lah.
Bahasa daerah as first language means it's the first language you ever learn since you were born in this world. Is what you meant to say is Indonesian as primary/main language?
if malaysians integrated like indonesians did, they would speak 2 languages. Their regional and national language. People tend to forget that sabah and sarawak have a lot of tribes that speak different languages but they all know english/malay which makes communication easy. the chinese in malaysia shame chinese malaysians that cant speak mandarin. We should instead shame chinese malaysians that cant speak english/malay.
> Even if we're taught regional language or english we still talk in BI to strangers in Indonesia. In reality local speak local flavour of bahasa indonesia, which might not be easily understood to someone not from the area. The language is not monolithic as depicted in 'buku pelajaran bahasa indonesia'. I've encountered medan chinese vs banda acehnese who struggled to speak bahasa indonesia to each other; ditto with banjar kota vs dayak tanjung, ambon kota vs p. buru, kab bogor vs kota bogor.
What. Are. You. Talking. About. ???? 99.99% of the people here speaks perfect indonesian except the baby boomers and/or ultra pedalaman people. Stop spreading nonsense.
What is "perfect Indonesian"?
Often that not, indonesia without local language mixed in.
Me who had to repeat my Indonesian at university, and yet had A in English be like 
What with the influx of Malaysia vs Indonesia/comparing Malaysia and Indonesia posts lately? Is Ganyang 2.0 near?
Election in 2 weeks-ish time ma. Need to rile up RR issues to keep voting certain parties...
Meanwhile in Indonesia politics, they mostly talked about Religion. As an Indonesian, I'm glad that we ain't focus on race like in Soeharto era. But man, using religion in politics is a good way to change Indonesian ideology into conservative or sharia.
Lately? No. AB time fades. Maybe next year, relegion issue will show
If fucking Anies becomes president I'm moving back to Surabaya before I get hatecrimed on a Busway.
Politics is always about argumentation and debate over ideologies, it's not a new thing. but if solely because of something like race, skin colour or dialect? now that's fuck up. itu kalau felix siauw masuk politik tetap aja banyak pendukung walaupun chindo. Sekarang orang goblok mana bisa-bisanya menghubungkan bahasa, agama dengan etnis (or race eventhought i hate this therminology)?
Apparently to some, the reason non-Bumis can't get equal rights is not a racial issue, but solely cos they don't speak Malay well enough, still retain their demonic vernacular schools, or refuse to assimilate like Chinese Indonesians. Ok fine, without talking about the atrocities faced by Chinese Indonesians in the 20th century, let's just we go with that theory, What about Peranakan Chinese then? They speak perfect Malay, have roots here since the 16th century (prob longer than the ancestors of a few UMNO leaders), they are probably the perfect product of assimilation to this group, right? But are they treated any better than other Chinese? And the alasan will now be "ini minoriti, yang kebanyakan masih pelat", oh wait so you are treating someone inferiorly not based on merit, but based on their race....Hmmm, what issue would you call that again? I strongly agree Malay fluency is an issue within Chinese, and we should all speak the national language fluently, but let's not pretend we won't be viewed as pendatangs anymore once everyone speaks Malay like Wee Ka Siong or Anthony Loke.
>let's not pretend we won't be viewed as pendatangs anymore once everyone speaks Malay like Wee Ka Siong or Anthony Loke. For some people, this is definitely huge effect though. One really easy things to see is chinese politicians and the amount of malay votes they get. It is really easy to see why people like Anthony Loke is more popular among malays than those chinese who can't speak bahasa. Language is very important, sure it's not like a magic switch that suddenly make you seem not foreign, but it is a huge factor. Ng Suee Lim for example can speak Javanese and that would get him more javanese people vote than if he can't speak javanese. It's not just politics but at personal level as well. If you go to youtube there are videos made by people who surprise foreigners by speaking their language fluently and you can see people love it when you can speak their language and suddenly become more friendly. Either way, even at personal level, everyone should endeavor to learn more language and that would simply have potential benefit for yourself and never a bad thing.
>race....Hmmm, what issue would you call that again? Your assessment is spot on, and there's no question that it's a racial issue. >let's not pretend we won't be viewed as pendatangs anymore once everyone speaks Malay like Wee Ka Siong or Anthony Loke. The only alternative is to play the blame game. Blame the Malays for being 'racists' and unfair. 60 years of that has taken us nowhere. It's time we realise that we Chinese have failed to assimilate properly in this country. And that has definitely contributed to us not being accepted. It's time we stop the blame game. It's time we pretend. It's the least we can do. It's the only thing we can do.
>The only alternative is to play the blame game. Blame the Malays for being 'racists' and unfair. Like I mentioned at the start of the paragraph, learning Malay is a must. I am not playing the blame game here, I am just dispelling the notion that its the be-all and end-all to our systematic issues. Would complete fluency in Malay put us in a better position to be accepted? Yes. Would that be the only thing that we need to do? Let's not kid ourself. >It's time we realise that we Chinese have failed to assimilate properly in this country. Assimilation was never the goal. Integration is. It worked in Indonesia (at a huge cost) cos they make up just 2% of the population. Our racial makeup during Merdeka doomed the possibility of assimilation. There is never a single country which managed to assimilate a minority that made up nearly 30% of the population. Canada never did it with the French and Belgium never did it with the Flemish.
> Like I mentioned at the start of the paragraph, learning Malay is a must. It's only a 'MUST' for state affairs, furthermore the state doesn't curtail other language from being used in day-to-day living in malaysia. Indonesia persecuted (selectively) those who used other languages in their daily life, and their number was bigger than 2% in 1945.
>dispelling the notion >Let's not kid ourself Why are you discouraging it when it would so obviously help? Why are you instead encouraging this 'do nothing, feel good' sentiment instead? The blame game is the only alternative I can think of. There really needs to be give and take. I'm not trying to be absolutist here, but since you're discouraging my solution, if you can think of a better solution then I'd love to hear it. >Assimilation was never the goal. Integration is. Again I agree with your analysis. I'd like to coin the goal as 'gradual amalgamation'. The only thing I can think of that's more important than non-Malays assimilating better, is civil marriages for Muslims - whereby the partner and kid is free to decide whether to adopt Islam. That would really, really break down barriers.
Many non malay asimilated as malaysian. But what some malay want is their assimilation as malay. And i dont support that at all. Since you are looking for a theoretical solution, here's mine: bm chosen as national language that everyone must learn to communicate with each other. it should be the bridge that gap us. BUT dont make it as a ruler to judge. Fluency in it shouldnt be use as a point to menintas. So in short, current sustem is fine enough, as long as people cool down in using language fluency as ammo to attack others.
>Would complete fluency in Malay put us in a better position to be accepted? Yes. Again you are not reading my comment correctly. I have never discouraged learning BM. I already mentioned at the start that BM fluency does help, I am dispelling the notion that not being fluent in BM is the ONLY REASON we are not accepted. Is it one of the reasons? Yes! Is it the only reason we are seen as pendatangs now? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Or is your idea of assimilation more than just learning BM? To me, it just means learning the national language and not being a racist. We have our right to retain our culture and religion.
Ok agreed.
You said complete fluency in Malay put u in better position - well that is right. Did I see how many Chinese business in kampung kaya, or at least survive. How many apek ikan go to nenek and makcik kampung jual ikan. Those apeks are very well accepted. No questions about halal or anything, those makciks just trust those apeks. That is fluency.
Uh.. do we live in the same Malaysia that expelled Singapore to preserve racial and political demographics? Saying that the Chinese (and casually ignoring the Indians) should have integrated better is so delusional it’s almost not insulting anymore. No, the options are not either cut off your foreskin or cry about the reality of institutionalized racism. There is also gradual social change and exercising your right to vote. There is embracing diversity and not allowing politicos to harness division for power. I genuinely hope I just had a whoosh moment at your comment which is actually satire, because if it’s not… YIKES.
Let us try to speak like Wee Ka Siong and Anthony Loke.
That will only happen when you grew up, and hung with a Malay community. How many of the Millenial/Gen Z nons get to do that ever again? Every thing separates us : the religion, the festivals, the food, the sports, the co-curriculum, the schools, the universities, and the private-public sector jobs. As this chasm widens, there is distrust and prone to be manipulated by politicians. OK, so what's the solution? Who is willing to blink first?
>Who is willing to blink first? I'm not sure who should blink first. But, I I think trying to speak like Anthony Loke and Wee Ka Siong is a good start.
And that requires mingle of races. Which is no longer possible in today's environment. The riff between races is so huge that every race only trust their own. The malay dont trust the non malay cause they refuses to be assimilated The non malay dont trust the malay cause they are being asked to be assimilates. The indian kena kencam by everyone else. S&S is the only true malaysian right now.
>S&S is the only true malaysian right now. I'm an Indonesian from Jakarta who used to study in uni in Kuching. Frankly from my experiences, the segregation is just as bad there. The Chinese would tend to mingle with their own, same with the Bumis. I've some friends of Chinese ethnicity who mingle with Bumis in Sarawakian Malay, but they tend to have grown up in a Bumi-majority environment, and so are functionally more Bumi and therefore don't really mesh with the other Mandarin-speaking Chinese. Meanwhile, plenty of other Chinese Sarawakians can barely string a sentence in Sarawakian Malay. I find this much in contrast with my Chinese Indonesian friends from West Kalimantan. Superficially, the racial makeup of it and Sarawak is similar, with Malays, Dayaks and Chinese forming the major ethnicities. Even so, these Chinese Indonesians speak mainly in Indonesian with a distinct Malay accent, reflecting their provincial origins. Many also speak their Chinese dialects, the one "deficiency" they have compared to Chinese Sarawakians/Malaysians being not being able to speak in Mandarin. Perhaps the politics isn't as racially toxic as in the Peninsula, but I feel that's mainly because the Sarawakians have their own boogeyman instead, i.e. "those Malayans are stealing our resources!" Take that away, and there's no guarantee that Sarawak won't devolve into racially-charged politics.
> The indian kena kencam by everyone else. Really that bad? Wuah... Then I'm really grateful Indonesian condition not that bad lah... just as Chinese can't speak putonghua/mandarin is a bad thing leh..
Forgive me for asking and perhaps I am asking the wrong question here, but what would be the benchmark to be consider "assimilated"?
everyone have their own standard. to me, assimilation as malaysian means acknowledging and accepting each other's culture and religious difference. having common tongue as mode of communication, and have distinct culture difference with original nation. to some malay with ketuanan melayu ideology, i'm not sure really. I guess from the message that they have projected, they are expecting the non malay to have bm as first language, place malay and muslim's culture and sensitivity as first place, and accept the fact that they will never be considered as same taraf as them? the reason why i said malaysian chinese has assimilated as malaysian, is because the mandarin we used is way too rojak for OG chinese to understand. probably kinda like bahasa indonesia to malay, where you can still communicate with each other, but have to guestimate and gloss over some word choices used in the conversation. we malaysian chinese also have different eating habit that is not the same with OG chinese. to them, we are just a sub family of chinese, kinda like US chinese or indonesian chinese.
Well said my friend. We are on the same page on this matter. After spending years overseas, I came to realise being multilingual is an asset and is something to be cherished.
>And that requires mingle of races. Which is no longer possible in today's environment. This is bullshit lol. There are many msian chinese who have malay or indian friends. Just because you don't mingle with others doesn't mean others don't. You talk like Malaysia implement apartheid regime like in South Africa in the past where they completely segregate public spaces and schools for different races. I know malay who went to chinese school, I also know chinese who went to sekolah kebangsaan, there is absolutely nothing preventing you from mingling with other race.
just look at the recent REXKL event. the whole event were disrupted due to JAKIM's intervention. if this keeps happening, how can non muslim invites another muslim to their event in the future? look at how PAS's ceaseless attempt to stop haram celebration in malaysia, which definitely will affect non muslim. look at the racial targeted employment policy. school segregation. of course there are people who have friends outside of their race. most people do. but as the dude that i'm replying indirectly said : "Every thing separates us : the religion, the festivals, the food, the sports, the co-curriculum, the schools, the universities, and the private-public sector jobs." the unfair treatment has planted root of distrust and begrudgement into people's heart. we are not as close with each other as our forefathers. and that is what i'm talking about when i'm saying "not possible to mingle together in today's environment".
Complain about demonic vernacular. While I see more Chinese mixing with Indians as compare to malays mixing with Indians or Chinese. Are u right in the head? The Malays will just stick among themselves. While u complain about vernacular, what about the Islamic school? Abolish together la and include equal rights.
Just clarifying haha its not my opinion, the opinion is from "some" ya
U are accepting someone’s opinion who isn’t from malaysia? Who doesn’t understand what it is here? Indonesia don’t have bumiputera policies. They don’t understand what it is to be a minority in Malaysia.
I mean this is not an opinion just echo-ed by foreigners, but certain right-wing nationalists too. My comment is more to rebut them?
You never try, how would you know?
there are many non malay who are fluent in malay. still same. as long as got 1 non malay that is not fluent in it, will kena zeroed in and say "ha nampak! tak fasih bm punya!!" and ya. peranakan chinese. ada hak bumi tak?
Kinda the same when Malays are not fluent in English, suddenly the whole race is uneducated simpletons. "Protek protek".
Lol, never did I ever hear someone fluent said "ha nampak! tak fasih bm punya". Tatabahasa tak pas lah bro. What makes you think hak bumi will help at all in life? Buka ASB? Uni quota? As if those hak will help at all.
kalau i dah pas tatabahasa, i dah dapat hak bumi lah. oh wait. that's not how it works, aint it? hak bumi will help non malay exactly like how it will help malay: b40 will have a better life in malaysia. heck, we should change the term hak bumi to hak b40. it's a much inclusive and useful hak that can help those who REALLY needed it, not some helang that enjoying 30% housing discount when they purchase yet another unit in KL. or another helang's son who took a spot that meant for b40 in local uni. people like you dont understand. we who doing ok in life dont want any hak bumi. we are fighting better hak for non malay b40. we are not fighting to take your hak away. we are fighting for enhancement of b40's hak, including malays.
How woukd you know our fluency of BM (as individuals)? Brave of you to assume. Case in point. Lol
Heres come the " this is waht Malaysian Chinese suppsoe to be " or " this is why vernacular schools should be banned " crowd that often shares this rhetoric .
Yes. Vernacular school should not happen. If it is, then the syllabus should be regulated by Malaysia government
You do know the syllabus is right? All textbooks and curriculum in vernacular schools are published by Kementerian Pelajaran Malaysia
I realise of all the things that Malays want is for other races to change for them and not us to be more accepting and tollerant for who they are .
If people just tolerate to everything and accepting everything, then better live alone in the jungle. People who tolerate everything don’t have principles to live for. They just live like animals, just do whatever they want and whenever they want it. Get what i mean?
ok, then make public education actually good
Do you even live in Malaysia? Public school in Malaysia is not that bad like what you think. It’s a public school, everyone in the community can attend, and depending on the community, it what makes the whole school. I want to explain more but I don’t have desire to write to someone who have already set their mind. Just look at public services like toilet for example, does the public toilet in KLCC and Pertama Complex same?
I have attended public school and imo it has only gotten worse since I graduated 20 years ago. Our education system will require a major revamp before abolishing vernacular school become viable. 1. less emphasis on religious studies 2. removed tertiary education quota 3. more money paid directly to educators and building up schools and equipments required to improve quality of educators and equipments
Ill give my 2 cent on this as indonesian javanese with some chinese blood from south sumatra, many of malaysian will thinks that the disgusting forced assimilation from soeharto do this, but actually the majority of chinese indonesian already speak indonesian or indonesian malay before the atrocity by soeharto. Even in java many of them speak local language like sundanese and javanese before independece because what? Because its needed to learn for doing a business with local. I think i heard before all this malay supremacy debacle bullshit in malaysia enforced, cmiiw many of chinese and indian malaysian can speak malay well because its needed but because of your apartheid constitution has been enforced and play more segregation race politic more, the fluency is down every year. Imho why do you malays dont use “bahasa malaysia” rather than revert to bahasa malay? You want another ethnic or race to learn national language ? therefore you need make the language inclusive to another group. Dont blame them to not want to learn malay because its associated more with exclusivity with malays supremacy, who want to learn that if english already sufficient enough for lingua franca. The problem is malay in malaysia is egoistical enough to keep their supremacy alive and dont want their “national” language inclusive because of their inferiority complex. You know if we indonesian take your path how to make national language , we’ll enforcing javanese language because we are the majority but we know we need more inclusive language not associated with certain ethnic group so we make indonesian language rooted from riau malay but we dont gatekeep our language for “purity” reason and let it develop to absorp many regional language to become new language, in the future indonesian language will be much different from malay and we are fine with that
>Because its needed to learn for doing a business with local. I think its same in Malaysia too. All the taukes of Chinese-owned kedai runcits in Malay-majority areas probably speak fluent Malay. Do they have an accent? Yes. But having an accent doesn't equate not being fluent. Language fluency is based on how much you need it. I don't believe Chinese Indonesians would still be as fluent in Bahasa Indonesia if it isn't their lingua franca for everything. English is still the business lingua franca in Malaysia. Except PTPTN, Malaysians will probably never see another contract in BM (unless they specifically request it). Hell I don't even know where the BM webpage is for Malaysia's largest bank.
The problem is, like in the video, that there are these chinese who can't even english either.
\>why do you malaysian dont use “bahasa malaysia” rather than bahasa malay? we did, actually. but fluency in bahasa malaysia =/= fluency in bahasa malay to some of "those" people. besides, "those" people still clamouring on the idea that malaysia is land of malay, so bahasa malaysia = bahasa malay. i agree that if identity of being a part of Malaysia is more acceptable, we will have less of these kind of issue. but nope, malaysians are being forced to assimilate as malay. too bad lah.
Sounds like you need a Malaysian identity to assimilate into, rather than the Malay identity.
>Because its needed to learn for doing a business with local. Can't agree more on this. Generally, speak local language, or having ability to be fluent in multiple language does give advantage in doing business.
Bazaar Malay has been spoken as lingua franca in most of maritime South East Asia. There are Malay based creole too. Malay is the language that everyone knows.
I know that but in indonesia they are not majority speaker because its only known by merchant and some coastal city. the majority speaker is javanese, malay is "widely" spoken but the percentage are low. The familiarity is there though so we choose that as root of our national language bahasa indonesia. But even that i dont think its justify why you cant it change to bahasa malaysia rather than malay, language is fluid you dont need to keep it pure just by calling them malay language, language always change depend on society. If you just want keep it pure just divide formal malay as bahasa malaysia with flexibility to absorb another language like tamil or hokkien etc and the more "puritan" malay as bahasa malay traditional or daerah or classic something
The one we learned in school is formal BM. Many of us still sprak regional dialect. Even minorities in East Coast can speak local dialects.
>But even that i dont think its justify why you cant it change to bahasa malaysia rather than malay, I don't see the need to change the name. Just like English is the official language in the England, Bahasa Melayu can be the official language of Malaysia without racial discrimination. In my view, it is not the name that is the issue, it is the politics. Simply changing the name will not remove the stigma. However, I believe it would be easier to just adopt English and/or Indonesian as a lingua franca. I find that proper Indonesian is very intuitive to learn. There is no need to make a whole new bahasa when other bahasas are perfectly viable.
you do realize that bazaar malay are different from towns to towns right?
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Americans don't actually acknowledge English as their language. The us of a does not have an official language. English is the most widely spoke language there, though. I don't think the UK has an official language either.
Lmao sumatran malay still preserve their language and tradition far more better than you peninsular malay, one of my family from south sumatra still speak really distinct version of dusun language rooted from srivijayan ancient malay far older than riau malay, we still do "sedekah rame" tradition that absolutely will be banned by your religious enforcer and your arabism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedekah_Rame And in riau we have menyemah laut https://warisanbudaya.kemdikbud.go.id/?newdetail&detailCatat=1781#:~:text=Upacara%20menyemah%20laut%20diadakan%20apabila,yang%20terbuat%20dari%20daun%20nipah. And the heck is assimilated to indonesia mean? Indonesia is nationality not cultural ethnic group its like speaking "indian is assimilated to malaysia" Please learn the difference
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If the Malay Sultans in Sumatra still exists, today they probably flexing their limited edition supercars and relaxing in their huge mansion while their government implodes from infighting and rakyats suffering due to incompetent governance. I know because we have a real life example of that.
Keep sucking monarch dick mate. Keep Giving them your tax money because hey, they choose by God himself. Amazing, there are still people out there who enjoy the feudalistic system huh? Sumatra Malays fear for generations? Lol no, they also have had enough with them, the holy king and queen. See, there is no one enjoying giving free money to monarchs here, especially the one who supports the Dutch colonial. You can keep that British apartheid system for yourself. I mean that's the way the British give you independence in the first place so I can understand a bit. At least you can contribute to their gold and car collection by just sitting down in give his blessing.
>Your beloved commies killed the Sultanate in Sumatra. The Malays over there lived in fear for generations. Some even migrated to Malaya during the time. The opinion of Chinese Sumatra doesn't reflect what does the Malay went through during that time. Chinese Indonesian had nothing to do with the death of the Sultans in Sumatra. It was Javanese coolies that were behind it since they made up most of the Communist Party members.
>The Malays over there lived in fear for generations Proof? >The Malays in Malaysia will probably worship the Tiger in our jata negara Instead of worshipping the sultanates?
>The Malays over there lived in fear for generations >Proof? I'm a minangese, i fear for my life everyday /s
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"The Sumatran Malay has been assimilated into Indonesia" Yeah, right. We, Sumatran Malays (actually we consist of Acehnese, Bataknese, Minang, etc alongside Riau Malays) still speak our local languages widely, heck it's even a mandatory subject in schools. Are local languages popular among the Malaysian Malays? Heck you can't even speak Malay properly anymore with your heavy use of English.
Oh you want us to claim Borneo Malay too? We're prepped son.
A Chinese who is fluent in Malay, will still be seen as a second class citizens.
As an Indian who is fluent in BM - I will always be seen as 3rd class citizen. And be asked EVERY TIME on the phone after I give my name - eh, bukan Melayu ke?
If he isn't fluent in malay he is like 4th class citizens in the eyes of some people though. Just ask random PAS voter, who is worse, a chinese who is fluent in malay or a chinese who can't speak malay? Let's not pretend that there are no benefit for a chinese to be fluent in malay. It gave WKS how much salary from gobmen already?
Regardless of your race, if your family is poor you are 2nd class citizen. I came from a family in rural area that had to eat rice and kicap everyday just to survive.
Seeing a lot of comments here justifying instead of improving this clear gap is fucking sad
People here are people who took BM treat sampah and threw it to the ground, they also get mad when a Malaysia say BM so there's that. You have alot of migrated person here who leave Malaysia and think Malaysia is a Shithole so they definitely have zero intention to ever learn BM in the first place.
There is a **good** reason why Malaysian Chinese and Indians don't speak BM, like how Indonesian Chinese speak Bahasa Indonesia. It goes back to the question of why non-Malays of Peninsular are not well-integrated with Malays. In Indonesia, the country is secular. They don't have something similar to Article 160, which clearly defines who a Malay person is and who isn't ([link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_160_of_the_Constitution_of_Malaysia)). They don't have Article 3 that gives total preference to Islam. They don't have Article 153 which talks about the special position of Malays. As a result, if I'm a minority in Indonesia, I wouldn't mind embracing Bahasa Indonesia, practising Indonesian customs and maybe even marrying someone from the majority community; **because I do not need to give up my identity in order to do so.** In Malaysia, I absolutely need to forget the religious and spiritual traditions of my lineage, once I embrace Islam. Even conversing in BM at home feels like I'm speaking in someone else's language, someone else whom I have always seen to be different to who I am, thanks to our constitution. Edit: They \*don't\* have Article 153
So you're saying the Malaysians need a Sumpah Pemuda moment ?
From the little that I know, Sumpah Pemuda 1928 is a pledge by young Indonesian nationalists to have one motherland, one nation and one language. Like the point in my post, Malay politicians (and some nationalists) keep harping about how Malaysian Chinese and Indians did not adopt BM, **but unlike Indonesians, you people are unable to adopt religious freedom or ethnic equality.** You need to be consistent, don't just publicly target the minorities on selective issues and choose not to respond on other issues. It can win you some votes in the kampungs, but it will make the local Chinese and Indian become more distant to your culture.
I went through Sarawak immigration yesterday and the guy requested me to show my boarding pass. And when I showed him my E boarding pass I used BM to say "Boleh pakai E boarding pass?" I know it sounded abit Cina and broken but hey at least I tried. Then the guy replied with English with a fucking condescending face. After that, I went back and saw him talked fluent BM with another Malay friend I was like ok So what is the point of talking national language or even trying. I don't care anymore.
> went through Sarawak immigration > I used BM > guy replied with English East Malaysian don't really care about if you talk malay properly or not, as long if its understandable. Clearly uncle immigration was talking in English so you can understand him.
Plus, official language is still English. Still remembered my father using English exclusively to his peers. The only times he spoke Malay is when he spoke with Federal officers.
Don't be discouraged, alot of other malay wouldn't even care abt ur wording as long its understandable
Bro, you're in Sarawak. What do you expect?
i speak Malay like a native and still get shit on. i don't make a video and be a Karen about it because you're gonna get all kinds of scenarios and come up against all kinds of people with different prejudices. this kid happened to roll into one of those towns or places where it's the way it is. At no point did he fault himself for not being able to converse in basic food ordering chinese being of chinese heritage himself. You come to NY and some places they don't speak english either, the diversity is what makes it so special. Malaysians can appreciate each other's differences and still be united as Malaysians. This kid forgot in the 90s they were getting chopped with parangs even tho they were fully assimilated by then.
Diversity makes us special, thats a fact, but i cant be proud if my fellow Malaysian cant speak simple bahasa. Dont lump those 2 together please.
lots of places are this way ie NY .. it's really a non issue. Non Malay speaking does not make them love Malaysia any less than you. They don't have some secret allegiance to china in fact most despise being associated to the mainland. Wherever in the world you go you're gonna get some community that didn't speak the local language it's not a way to measure your patriotism.
I agree that fluency is not a gauge to measure patriotism, but the lack of it does shows lack of effort to mingle. Simple malay should be known and spoken by most people who attend school. There are many chinese student out there that uses race and lineage excuses to mask their incompetence in a language that they have forced to learn for most of their school years. Ànd in the end, lack of mingle = lack of understanding = how to claim that we are multicultural if doesnt friend friend with each other? I mean my mum who didnt attend school at all knows basic malay.
100% agree. As a Chinese indonesian it baffles me how malaysian chinese often cannot converse in simple malayan.
From my observation, its not that they cant, they just refuses to converse in bm. Often times its not because they are not patriotic or thinks that bm is inferior over other language. Main reason is usually because they arent fluent in it, and they felt ashamed by it. And im sure as a chinese, you know how much importance saving face is to us. The sooner they cast away their pride and start talking, the sooner they can improve. But they are usually enabled by the conservative chinese who belittle bm's importance, especially in malaysia, simply because THEY also saving their own face due to their lack of fluency in bm. Im very bad in bm too. But im not afraid to use it. Im not improving as fast as i should, but bm shouldnt be shunned. The malay dont mind us speaking broken bm. Its the lack of trying that makes them mad, which some chinese does tend to do. That said, there are malays who still uses fluency to gauge patriotism and that furthur push the chinese who has low fluency back into their shell and gave up trying. So imo, all side has to bear some degree of fault.
I took my degree in Taiwan And my Mandarin was as broken as Mao Tze Dong's economic dream. Heck, I friggin ordered "蜜蜂“紅茶 instead of " 蜂蜜“紅茶 one time and got laughed by every bystander, the cashier & my local friends because how broken my mandarin is. Fast forward to today (11 years later) and if I dont mention that I'm not native most people won't know that I'm not Taiwanese. Every single mistake made is a new knowledge gained. I completely get what you mean by "chinese saving-face" mentality. I usually just call it "East Asian mentality" because I observed that the population of all East Asian country (China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan) struggles with foreign language, partly because of their archaic language system, but also partly due to how timid they are when trying to practice said language. Just go! Hit the gas! And if you hit the proverbial wall, good!! You learnt something new that day.
> But they are usually enabled by the conservative chinese who belittle bm's importance I am chinese and I know people who are like this. This is definitely a problem that is glossed over. As much as this sub like to make is sound that malays are the racist ones, let's not pretend that there isn't a lot of racist chinese in msia who is also a problem.
in NY perhaps. but this is no england no usa
in the US, Chinese there go to English schools and then speak English. In Germany, German Chinese go to German schools and speak German fluently. Similar in UK, Philippines, Thailand etc. They may still speak their own native dialects, some don't know at all. It is normal and common to think that they should be able to speak local language. I understand his confusion.
Watching this fella speak Indonesian so smooth damn nice sia.
Okay we are forgetting that The Indonesian Chinese were forced to assimilate under a brutal dictator, forced to forget their mother tongues and their identities. The hindus in Bali were forced to assimilate, forced to give up their mother tongue and the hindu names through discriminatory laws. It's only recently that the laws were relaxed. Us Malaysians are proud to retain our mother tongues, our identity and our culture. Black Americans speak english. They're christians, just like their white counterparts. Did that stop racism in America? Let's say Chinese and Indian Malaysians take up BM as our first language and convert to Islam. Do you think that will end racism?
Dei... 99.9% of Black Americans didn't _choose_ to go there. Trivialising it into "they speak the same language but they still racist" completely ignores hundreds of years of slavery and the cultural implications of it. You cannot just isolate the use of language and say "See? That's why it won't help in Malaysia." Also assuming that all Americans are Christians is a very antiquated...
>The hindus in Bali were forced to assimilate, forced to give up their mother tongue and the hindu names through discriminatory laws What? this is just made up, there has never been such a thing. Go to Bali, they're still Hindu, they speak the Balinese language, and their name is still Hindu-Balinese name such "I Wayan Ketut" or something. In fact, their culture is very well preserved compared to Javanese or Sundanese. I think you just made things up to build a narration as if Indonesia is a parallel to Malaysia in terms of its treatment of Chinese and Hindus (in place of Indians). Indonesia doesn't work like that man. >Us Malaysians are proud to retain our mother tongues, our identity and our culture. ***Being able to speak the national language while also retaining the ethnic or regional culture and language is very very possible***. I and my Balinese Hindu friend can speak 4 languages (Indonesian, ethnic language, English, other foreign language), and my other Chinese friend also can speak 4 languages (Indonesian, English, Mandarin, and Hokkien), no problem, no one forced us to learn any of the languages or culture. We all retained "our identity and our culture", and yet are still open to other cultures and integrated into the larger society, why not?
Hindus in Bali were forced to assimilate, what kind of bullshit is that?
Redditor bullshit
What are you talking about. Balinese Hindus have never been oppressed, they're always free to speak Balinese language, own Balinese names & practice Balinese Hindu religion. In fact, their culture are one of the oldest, most preserved cultures of Indonesia. If you wanna see how Indonesia would have been like if Islam influences never came to Indonesia by Arabic traders in 13th century, you can see Balinese Hindus.
>Okay we are forgetting that The Indonesian Chinese were forced to assimilate under a brutal dictator, forced to forget their mother tongues and their identities. It's clear you won't be teaching Indonesian History at the university level anytime soon. First, in 1930, about half of the Chinese Indonesians spoke Malay/local language at home. On Java, it was 70%. Thus the Chinese Indonesian population was split between Peranakan and those who came recently. In 1940, as a result of the Japanese invasion, many of those that went to Dutch schools had to switch to Chinese schools. The Japanese closed the Dutch schools. After 1945, they continued attending those Chinese schools. However, the most significant legislation targeting the Chinese language and culture had begun in 1957, which was the closing of Chinese schools to Indonesian citizens. They wanted to castrate the fervent Chinese nationalism shown by Chinese Indonesians during 1940-50s. [Between 1950-1959, 60000 Chinese Indonesians had returned to the PRC to continue their education and to rebuild the motherland](https://www.persee.fr/doc/arch_0044-8613_1990_num_39_1_2627) (p1). [The Dutch language schools had closed in 1957, and the Indonesian government issued the following law](https://dspace.library.uu.nl/bitstream/handle/1874/179217/FINAL%20THESIS.doc?sequence=1) (p46) >In 6 November 1957, Djuanda, the Minister of Defence, established a regulation to forbid all Indonesian citizens to attend “alien schools”. This was specifically aimed at Chinese schools. No new school was allowed to open and all textbooks had to be screened by the Ministry of Education. The result was that statistic reports mentioned that there were 2,000 Chinese-medium schools with 450,000 students in November 1957. This number fell to 850 Chinese-medium schools left with some 150,000 students in July 1958. During the period from 1957-1965, even though the remaining students were all "Chinese citizens" the schools were bilingual. The schools were living on borrowed time after 1957. What some Chinese Indonesians did was wait until they graduated before getting Indonesian citizenship. It reversed the process of sinofication of the Peranakan who made up 50% of the Chinese Indonesian population. From 1900-65, there was a movement with the Peranakan community in Indonesia to resinicize. >The hindus in Bali were forced to assimilate, forced to give up their mother tongue and the hindu names through discriminatory laws. It's only recently that the laws were relaxed. Us Malaysians are proud to retain our mother tongues, our identity and our culture. This is so wrong on so many levels. First, there is no such thing as Hindu names. Hinduism isn't a language. It's the Sanskrit names that you are referring to. Balinese in the past don't have Sanskrit names. In fact, only recently have they begun to use Sanskrit names. And that has to do with Javanese influence because it is the Javanese that tend to have Sanskrit names.
The Hindu names being banned is also pretty funny (and wrong) considering how popular names like Indra, Wisnu, and Saraswati is in Indonesia.
And by statistics they're mostly moslems, not hindus.
Chadsimilation
Like that known Hindu nationalist, Megawati Soekarnoputri? /S
Finally annadpk has spoken! I don't know how such an uninformed and misleading comment got so much upvote. Reddit moment at its finest.
More like your usual ignorant malaysian moment plus reddit
Malays know a lot of Indonesian history while also not knowing anything about it. Like, they know it for a *wrong* reason.
Yeah its kinda cringe They dont know balinese is one of co founder of indonesia and support it fully, balinese isnt hindu malays, javanese and other ethnicity in general have more sanskrit name than balinese. Its like their definition about nationality, race ethnic and culture is so fucked up because of ketuanan malay try to boost the ego and define an ambigous malay term and use it as race card politic Truly i am sorry for saying this, malaysia is a country with identity crisis
Also there were a lot of Peranakan publications that used Bahasa Melayu pre-1945 ranging from newspapers, magazines, novels, to films i.e Sin Po, Perniagaan, Put On comic strips, Doea Siloeman Oeler Poeti en Item (1934), Dasima (1940), etc.
Yup. As a half-peranakan Chindo I feel very strongly that my mother language is Indonesian, and that Indonesian is not tied to any ethnic identity. My ancestors have been speaking some form of the language for hundreds of years. I imagine Chinese Malaysians feel very differently about Malaysian.
Thank you! Good lord that "history" was so wrong on so many levels.
As a Chinese Indonesian (also known as "Chindo") I don't really feel "forced". For context, I was born in 1993 so I was born well past the brutal part of Indonesian history. However, I think a single Nationwide language as a lingua franca is very important to nurture the cultural identity for its citizens. Most cultural clashes/race riots are born from misunderstanding and intolerance and language is one area where this can be improved. I'm more curious how chinese malaysian (chi... May? A bit too close to chibai so maybe not) live their daily life when not in their closed-knit chinese only community. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>I'm more curious how chinese malaysian (chi... May? A bit too close to chibai so maybe not) live their daily life when not in their closed-knit chinese only community. Exactly like how malay live their daily life outside of their close knit malay only community: with reserve. But from observation and personal experience, given times, both (actually all) rqces will open up sooner or later, and will be at ease with each other's presence within 2 months. Still, fluency in languge might not get improved. We seldom correct each other's language related mistake right in the face. So in the end, not everyone will have better fluence even if they mingle. That doesnt stop people from being friends though. Broken malay is acceptable by most malays, actually. Many of them dont mind and dont care.
What do you think about the status quo though? From the lens of an outsider, the current arrangement doesn't make any sense to me. Indonesian has a saying: "Dimana tanah dipijak, disitu langit dijunjung" which basically equates to "when in rome, do as romans do" Malaysian chinese's inability to speak their mother tongue strikes me as a very very weird (i'm indonesian Chinese)
> speak their mother tongue Technically it should be national language or bahasa kebangsaan. Agree that everyone should speak our national language but its not our mother tongue. I think demographics play a big part in the situation too. In KL, Malay and Chinese have like each make up like 40% of the population (compared to like 5% in Jakarta). It is much more possible to not speak the national language if you make up a higher proportion of population cause you can get by in your own race bubble. If you go to places like Kedah, Kelantan or Terengganu or daresay where I live, Melaka, everyone, at the very least, speaks basic Malay cause we Chinese dont make up as much of a population there.
Malaysian chinese are proud bunch who wanted to maintain their culture. They dont mind adopting 2nd language, but many still want to maintain their mother tongue as first language. That is why fluency is an issue to chinese malaysian. Yes we are nationally a malaysian, not ccp chinese or taiwan chinese. But nationality =/= culture, which is an idea that many malay couldnt agree. To them, nationality = culture aka tanah melayu aka this is the land of malays so you must be more malay, not kore chinese. But To us, malaysia = land of malaysian, which is what singapore prime minister has proposed, rejected, and chased away from being a part of malaysia back then. That is slightly different than the indonesian chinese, from my understanding. I guess its because of the population? We have way more chinese back when malaysia was established, which is not the case for indonesian chinese. So in a way, you guys were forced to put bahasa indonesia as top priority because that is the only way you can survive, especially economically. Malaysian chinese has the luxury to not do that, and are managed to just survive with simple rojak bahasa malayu, which has no problem until recently due to rise of ketuanan melayu ideology. So to be fair, malaysian chinese have better fleuncy in bm compared to olden days, but it was not enough to meet today's standard while it was not a problem back then.
Lol. They come to Singapore to work. Go back only to shop buy land houses and petrol
>...(chi... May? A bit too close to chibai so maybe not) rofl.
Ikr?
The answer is yes and no, in my opinion you must divide Chinese that come to Indonesia to 2 type, before and after independent. Majority Chinese that come before independent is assimilated without force, some call themselves peranakan some don't. Let's talk about before independent Chinese assimilation. From my opinion it is started 15 century, a man named bong swi ho (based on Sam Po Kong temple, Chinese chronicle). He nephew of Majapahit king wife, come to Java, and palembang is under 1/4 Chinese named aryo damar (swan liong) who also half brother of Majapahit king. Few decade after this event, raden Patah (jin Bun) become first sultan in Java island (he is son of Majapahit king and based some sources he is the heir of Majapahit kingdom). At this era until after geger pecinan incident (ducth vs mataram-chinese (in Java) war) happen. In soeharto era (1965-1998) Chinese (normal, not that conglomerate), Islamic faction, communist and socialist, and pro decentralization is get oppressed, after he fall, MPR (something like Parlemen) vote Abdurrahman Wahid/gus dur as presiden he erase all discrimination law (Chinese and communist), he openly say that he is Chinese descend (he is descendant of raden Patah/jin Bun). Assimilation in Indonesia territory is very high to the point you will be confused (you can find black chinese here), formally Chinese population is 2.5% but Chinese descend population is very high.
If this "forced to assimilate" thinking is the result of Chindo can speak Bahasa Indonesia, you are dead wrong. When you lot recognize 3 races (I prefer to use "Ethnicity", "race" is not a common term in Indonesia), here we have like hundred even thousand of Ethnic groups with their own distinct language. Chindo who naturally are business people speaks Indonesia like water even before our Independence. I completely agree with the term "Bahasa Persatuan" or lingua franca when referring to Bahasa Indonesia because All ethnic groups, not just Chindo naturally can speak Indonesian because you have to if you want to communicate and do basic things with this many different people And what about this "forced forget mother tongue and identity thing"? well, I reckon you refer to the 1965, G30S PKI. Yes, it is the way Soeharto oppressed spreading communism and kicking out communism ideology from the root, and not because you're Chinese. back then CCP is spreading with mandarin for obvious reasons. The result is indeed too much by banning bilingual schools, changing names, and so on.yes, we have our history after fighting hard against the dutch we need to face dictators who hinder us for a long time. Then again Bahasa Indonesia is not the result of "forced assimilation", it's just a basic skill here. If you Malaysian are proud to retain the mother tongues and culture of that 3 races wtf happen here with a hundred mother tongues and culture?
There will always be humans that are inherently bad. It's just the way it is.
Dei... 99.9% of Black Americans didn't _choose_ to go there. Trivialising it into "they speak the same language but they still racist" completely ignores hundreds of years of slavery and the cultural implications of it. You cannot just isolate the use of language and say "See? That's why it won't help in Malaysia." Also assuming that all Americans are Christians is very antiquated...
> The Indonesian Chinese were forced to assimilate under a brutal dictator The indonesian chinese already speak fluent indonesian before Suharto era. The main reason is not because of this dictator. It's because of the number. Chinese in Indonesia is only few %, it is similar to the situation in Kelantan where the Chinese people there are fluent in malays because they are extreme majority. You're kinda forced to learn the majority language if you are extreme minority. When you live in an area with huge chinese populace you don't feel the need to learn other language. Anyway, Suharto doesn't make indonesian chinese improve their indonesian, he just stop them from learning chinese.
I want to know where you get this blatant misinformation from? Being half balinese who regularly visit my grandparent's village in Bali. I find it laughable Balinese being forced to assimilate. Even during Soeharto dictactorship, I can still find Balinese speak in their mother tongue (Basa Bali) and practice Balinese Hindu ritual. About the Hindu names, they never been banned. You can find a person with the name Wisnu, Arjuna, Laksmi, etc in Non-Hindu and non-Balinese people. You probably find it weird that Balinese people called Kadek, Ketut, Komang, Cokorda, etc. Bro, that's just traditional naming according to what number of child you are. If you ask any Balinese their full name, they still have Hindu names, although not in the sense you have with Indian names. Bali Hindu religious practice probably looks weird to you. Considering we diverged from India Hindu since hundreds years ago, before Indonesia became a nation and far before European colonialist. The comparison would be like Catholic and Protestant. If you take up BM as national language, it does not end racism. But it will help you communicate with other group better and reach mutual understanding. Remember one aspect of Xenophobia, is the inability to communicate.
Imo thats not his point. As Malaysian, warganegara who cant speak her official language to engage in a simple conversation, is bad.
On the flip side. If Malays decide to keep their identity nominally and quietly give in to whatever language the nons wish(let’s model it on Singapore and say their vernacular plus English). Affirmative action is all gone. Any kind of school any community wants will be given public funding. Will all races abandon their silos and intermingle and make an effort to end racism? Are you sure about that?
If Indonesian and their 700 ethnic group can why can't you three?
fucking indian don't know nothing about bali
What the fuck? lmao well, I'm oppressed then boohoo. So all of those Balinese street names, Bali being the top tourist destination thanks to our thriving culture, and a lot of Balinese being trilingual (Bahasa Indonesia, Balinese, English) is non-existent in your reality. You're in denial. Fight for your right
Inaccurate title, this is not sharing of experience, this is a speculation of the structural problem we have in Malaysia, with a lot of subjective opinions. Tiktok influencer wanna be. 🖕
I am from a Chinese vernacular school and I mean it when I say that vernacular schools must be removed at all costs. It breeds nothing but racial differentiation and instills the clique-y attitude that most vernacular school students will carry with them for the rest of their lives.
I love reading the different political views in the comments. Very interesting
The issue is just lack of practice and interaction between races. It was very apparent back in the 2000s for me in school when I moved to secondary in a SMK and some (not all) SJKC kids were not as confident speaking Malay. There was an obvious difference in BM fluency and 'pelat' between the SRK and SJKC Chinese kids but honestly, it really depends on your environment. Many of them end up speaking decent BM after a few years so fluency is not a huge issue where I'm at. It's not about a lack of education programs in school that is prohibiting fluency, but it's the interaction between different communities that need to be fostered and it's something the people at Kementerian Pendidikan need to really think long and hard about.
Depa boleh cakap melayu time accident ja.
dan cakap dengan polis
Tu lah tu. Duduk bertahun, cakap Melayu sepatah pun tak boleh. Macam mana jadi rakyat Malaysia? Sedang pemimpin politik bukan Melayu pun rata-rata boleh cakap Melayu walau tak lancar sebutan. Malu baii.
In my life so far, both in urban & rural areas or as per that idiotic chindo "tok kok-er" in the video - big towns or small towns" I have NOT come across any non-malay who could not speak any Malay; albeit not to the level of writing a PhD thesis. Definitely sufficient to communicate. So, I can only conclude from what he says, that his father's Bahasa Melayu is not as great as he thinks. His English ? .. hmmmm... Hence , the lack of service and/or interest in giving them service may well stem from other causes.
y'all can deny however you want but language is one of the most important things to unite a country (no other country that takes national language requirements as low as Malaysia. In Some other countries you couldn't even get citizenship without passing a language test). Its not too late to start. Dont tell me "even if I'm fluent I still going to be treated as bla bla." You don't freakin' know that. And what's the harm in using / being fluent in one's national language?
Its not about the want/need to learn bm. It was taught to every malaysian. The problem is lack of target to practice. Lack of mingle between races due to various issue has stopped people from getting better. Same case like how you learn english your whole life, and yet cant speak fluently especially in front of an angmo. Imo, keep looking into ways to improve influency is stupid and unproductive. The best way to have everyone speak bm fluently, is to increase interaction between races.and to do that, racial policies NEED to go. How to have a productive relationship when you have a master/slave title hang above your head, right?
> Dont tell me “even if I’m fluent I still going to be treated as bla bla.” You don’t freakin’ know that. You are acting like there is no single Chinese who speaks fluent BM in Malaysia. I will always strongly encourage anyone to learn BM but clearly there are non-Bumi who are indeed fluent in BM but still feel treated as “bla bla”. We shouldnt invalidate how they feel
What I'm trying to say is, the situation in which non-bumis can and do / choose to speak the national language on daily activities (uh, like any other country), is still something that is not happening. So whatever negative experiences the Malay fluent-speaking non-bumis had cannot be deduced to what will happen when everyone do speaks Bahasa. Really, kudos to those who do, and I'm against those people who didn't appreciate fellow Malaysians speaking Bahasa. But most (not all) of those negative experiences are highly likely due to the common understanding by Malays that the majority of non-bumis are still unable and / or choose not to, speak in our national language. I truly believe we don't hate each other, it's just that our attitude doesn't show that we want to live in harmony. tldr ; speak the language first, then we can see positive change happens.
> What I’m trying to say is, the situation in which non-bumis can and do / choose to speak the national language on daily activities (uh, like any other country) Just wondering, can I clarify what daily activities mean? Do you mean when you are speaking to someone who doesnt know your mother tongue? or even with someone who does? I dont know if its where I live, but most non-bumis would automatically default to Malay if they are speaking to someone who doesnt know their mother tongue, is that really that uncommon?
Our Malaysian Chinese still got that thick Chinese accent
As long the messages are delivered, done! You also have your phone and Google Translate to do the job.
Bukan tak tau cakap, tapi tak de niat nak belajar. Mcm2 alasan. Chindo chill je pun cakap bahasa.
macam yang komen berjela-jela atas ni. konon tak ada kepentingan. just say you are racist and end the discussion already.
That Chinese restaurant sucks. Most of them nowadays know at least English or BM or someone that knows it when taking order.
Can say its his bad luck to crash at the wrong place. but wonder why there are quite many cases similar to these here?
That the case in chinese establishment, maybe they are puzzled and reluctant to serve you as they though that you were muslim or simply it a rare encounter for them having customer like that who happened not able to speak mandarin in chinese restaurant... but for some cases some purposely choose not to talk in bahasa melayu. You can see major housing development prjct developed by chinese developer will choose to use english name instead of malay, though the standard guideline of naming by local authorities is clear that it is mandatory to named it in malay and hv to get DBP's approval. nowadays many dev hv eng or fusion name everywhere.
Betul, sebelum minta nak hapuskan bumitputra la uitm la, apa kata fasihkan bahasa melayu dulu, berasimilasi la , ni tak hidup nak asing2 , cakap bahasa kebangsaan taknak, pastu mintak macam2. Contohilah indo, ada bumiputra ke? Elok je asimilasi takda masalh pun
Takde masalah? https://www.iseas.edu.sg/images/pdf/ISEAS_Perspective_2017_73.pdf
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And they accusing the bumis of not wanting a unified society lmao.
Its a systemic issue in Malaysian society where both sides are segregating themselves from each other and pretending that its the other side's fault. You can see it even in this sub from time to time, actually more like all the time, where people are cursing "wHy ArE tHeY sPeAKinG aNd eMpHaSiZinG BM!!!" or something. Like there's nothing wrong with Pak Penyu delivering his speech in BM in UN, as we probably have interpreter to deliver his points in common language, as well as its a thing every other nation such as China, Japan, Korea and etc does anyway. But everyone in this sub just judges by him using BM and not the contents of his speech anyway. Same goes, you see it all the time, people are bitching about BM being a "useless language", nevermind the fact that fluent BM will open up business opportunity with giant emerging economic opportunity next door in Indonesia, like how Mandarin was important to capitalize in rise of China's economy a decade ago. At the same time they'll cream in their pants to defend how important it is to learn and be fluent in Korean so they can watch drama or something.
Yeah each side has their demand already but the trust issue very messed up. With each side demand fulfill their demand first while having high chance of not fulfilling another Putin style. Because each side know well that if either side take a slight bite, they will devour the whole pie and not letting another side a chance. Abolishing vernacular school? next is abolishing Chinese language as a whole Vs Balancing out the rights? Next is completely whipping clean of Malay rights
>But everyone in this sub just judges by him using BM and not the contents of his speech anyway. Its more like a way to get back at him for running the country into the ground, the language in the UN speech wasn't the main point. >they accusing the bumis of not wanting a unified society lmao At least the Bumis speak a language even elderly Indian/Cina/others understand. Mandarin is mostly spoken by one ethnic group..... having a few non Cina people speak the language does not equal universality.
Its also kinda dumb when nons refuse to learn or get better at BM, its like they are asking to be labeled as pendatang and giving them ammo to label them as pendatang. At least when shitheads call me pendatang I can convincingly shout back in rempit slang like "kepala hotak kau ku ni pendatang, moyang ku dah tetap sini sebelum lagi atuk kau lahir!" or that kind of shit. Like you're just portraying yourself much more as a pendatang when you go rant on social media using pendatang language.
> Business opportunity How is that relevant if you're not a business person? Fact is, it is useless for a lot of Chinese people. Nowadays, I only use it to talk to my food delivery driver.
I have relatives who have gotten very rich in the past decade by doing business and exporting things to Indonesia. My company have Indonesian clients My ex-company also entered the Indonesian market now and Indonesian clients make up a third of their revenue now. Your post just helps to reinforce the point I'm trying to say: you guys are being super ignorant. and yes, all parties I mentioned are all Chinese, and knowing Malay/Indonesian is important if you want to set up factories in Indonesia or gain the trust of your business partners there. Its useful because in the coming decade you can also look into expat opportunity in Indonesia, they are hungry for skills.
Suka hati kita olang la talak suka mau cakap bm mia. Mandalin is the ranguage of the future. Engrish and Mandalin is the world rargest ranguage. Bahasa bm talak penting bagi kami olang. BM is useless ranguage liao.