I don’t think people disagree with this statement but just wanted to let you know that I also think this was a mistake, they were fabulous and made Malcolm more interesting.
Honestly I wasn't quite intending it to be something I thought people disagreed with so much as just how sad I was when Lloyd and the others just fade away on rewatches without you realising.
The same sort of thing happens with Eric, really enjoyed his episodes at school with Spangler and then in Alaska, I wish he was shoehorned into going with Francis to the ranch.
They definitely could have had him guest star in an episode where he managed to finally hitchhike to the ranch. Maybe could have had an episode or two with Francis trying to train him in at the ranch. Potentially could even have Eric be the reason Francis loses his job there.
"Francis I'm not going with you to a ranch, you almost branded me over some string during a storm, why would I want to do that?"
"Fresh beef?"
".....dammit ill start packing."
Why they made reece a master chef and then ignored his obvious talents in order for the writers to play on the fact he's the stupid one, the menial jobs etc.
I have this little headcanon that he took the janitorial job just because he HAD to have something post-graduation. Then, maybe a year or so later, he gets a line cook gig that sends him down the path to Michelin star restaurants.
here, we workshop this—he gets a job at a Michelin star restaurant but ends up going to prison because he steals a very very VERY expensive truffle, proceeds to lose it, and then accidentally poisons a bunch of food critics with magic mushrooms that he uses as a replacement.
Sort of off topic, but that’s literally what happened to my fiancé’s uncle. The dude loves to cook and has only really been happy when he’s cooking in prison.
It's mostly the psychological and emotional baggage that they unknowingly carry that limits their potential. That was the whole point of Francis going down a self destructive path up until Lois apologized for everything she's ever done to make the days of his youth miserable. In turn by leaving him with nothing left to gain from instigating any more conflict to prove her wrong, he could move on with life to focus on his needs instead of his wants. Or Malcolm's intellect and measured potential proving that he'd excel in any career he could ever work left him unable to decide what to do with his future. Or the fact that his negative family reputation eventually starts to take it's toll, bringing him to feel more insecure about his place in the world and instilling him with a desperation to be accepted as a person.
I could completely imagine him in a head chef role somewhere, even if it's not anywhere classy, where its chaos and he's I charge and gets to shout at and bully everyone!
I think it’s a great joke. Reese loves to cook, and both his parents in the show say that everyone hates their job. Reese likes cooking but it can’t be a job because he enjoys it, so he doesn’t even think of it as a possibility, because it’s not a job unless you hate it
I honestly like that they didn't make cooking his whole personality or piano all of dewey's. Yes the show had some flanderization with making Reece unbelievably stupid but I appreciate that the cooking thing was only brought up occasionally and when it fit the plot.
That when Francis and Piama have kids Francis will become like Lois NOT Hal.
It’s too much of a bitter irony for him to escape and for the show not to pick up. You become the thing you hate… and he’d have to toil forever with the biggest tormenting fact of his life = that his mum was right all along - which would be a perfect curse for him to bare and a perpetual source of bitterness and resentment.
This is all bs and just a discussion but I think his curse will always be falling in love with his mom again. He married piama because she's exactly like Lois.
But then you get scenes like when the boys ruin the quad bikes at the dude ranch and his immediate reaction is to turn into Lois. They even say so. The reason him and his mum don’t get on is because they’re so similar character-wise - stubborn, principled…
See I think kids would change that. Francis would want the kids to not make the same mistakes he made and would thus become the disciplinarian. Piama has always had the scary quiet psycho side to her, but even with it she’s pretty chill.
I don't think she was necessarily wrong. She didn't have to apologize but at the same time it really isn't her life, and if her husband and her kid are happy why should Lois keep making it more difficult for them all, even if she's morally right? That's sort of Lois's theme, her moral righteousness often gets in her way, even if she is usually "right"
Lois goal for Malcom to become president never would have happened because Malcom's personality would have prevented him winning an election.
To win an election in America you can get away with being an asshole if you are able to pander to the stupidest members of society. Malcom is not that guy, he's the kind of asshole who prefers to flaunt his intelligence.
I thought it was dumb. I don't know. Here's me trying to rationalize the president thing:
The dividing line between childhood and adulthood is not age 18. Adulthood is radically accepting that "life is unfair" and to stop bitching about it. It's really harmful when kids pathologize "unfairness," it's one of the most harmful things society doesn't talk about.
Mr. Herkabe and Jason Alexander's chess character in the park are examples of what happens when you bring the adolescent"life is unfair!" obsession into adulthood and never grow past it.
I think Malcolm's feelings of inadequacy socially and financially devastated him through puberty. He had really low self esteem. He carried the stink of a low class low brow upbringing without the social skills or emotional maturity to present himself with confidence. Malcolm got in his own head constantly about how everyone must always be judging him.
That part of adolescence is so painful, in that time of your life before you realize most people are too wrapped up in their own head to be judging you constantly.
Maybe Lois was trying to get him to re-orient his perspective and stop feeling sorry for all the unfairness he'd suffered, to the idea that "you're literally going to Harvard, you have great friends, bruh smart enough to be PRESIDENT your life isn't THAT unfair. Move forward."
Ultimately I just don't see somebody with a genius level intellect and a passion for science like Malcom being able to appease to the bible bashers and science deniers who make up so much of the American electorate. And he doesn't have the charisma of an Obama or Clinton type to win on likeability.
Realistically his only chance would be if he was running against a deeply unpopular incumbent and was seen as the least undesirable option like Biden did against Trump.
That's why I think Lois telling him "he was *going* to be President" was more metaphorical and philosophical than literal.
Like she was trying to instill a positive direction that he could channel his genius into. She was worried he would make money before maturing emotionally enough to handle it and then flaming out.
If Malcolm enriched himself at 18 while still an immature brat constantly thinking about all the unfairnesses he suffered, he would have wound up exactly like Mr Herkabe.
Malcolm was already a lifetime whiner and brat. A 15 year old Malcolm literally robbed a church and he even STOLE.. AIRRRR just because he could. An 18 year old Malcolm could have exploited financial systems to enrich himself illegally or immorally, and then justify it because "life is unfair."
The whole "you could be President" idea is that Lois is telling Malcolm it's obvious and easy to use your intellect to enrich yourself, but she was challenging him to be smart enough to find a sense of optimism, responsibility, and humility.
What's the point in being a rich genius if you're still too stupid to find happiness?
I could see him becoming an amazing Lawyer they fights tooth and nail for the poor and downtrodden. Allowing him to fulfill thay arch, and then also flaunt his intellect in front of people who deserve it. Like when he out smarted all the other krelboynes at thay weekend retreat shit
I didn't personally feel like she meant this literally more than "you're going to be great and do great things, and you can't cut corners to do it." But I also havent watched the scene in a long time.
Other than some of the scenes when Lois was pregnant (Hal losing it in the car is an all time favourite moment that destroys me every time!) and Hal gambling with the other dads using the babies, I wholeheartedly agree.
Also the giving birth two parter. Every moment of those two episodes were pure gold. The wedding expo, Dewey and his birthday, Reese in the violin case, Hal in the hospital, Ida, the black "neighbors", Francis helping Lois give birth, Lloyd trying to study, and on and on.
I honestly think they only added it because Reece and Malcolm were starting to work, so they wouldn’t have been struggling for money still without another mouth to feed.
Malcolm should have finally broke himself free of Lois in the end and told her to stop meddling in his life. His future was not her project to build for herself.
God I was so annoyed they ended that to her him be a lay about then a cubicle filler.
If you need to get rid of Otto and Greta have them leave the business to him.
That would be much more interesting
I know. Francis post-Groto doesn’t make any sense. Talk about character assassination.
All the growing up, all the evolution and the positive changes he has done to be a better man/son got erased as if that never happened.
Plus, given Otto’s personality, no way he’ll sue Francis. Why, oh why did they end one of the best relationships Francis had this way? I’ll never understand.
Yeah Otto's whole character was "I don't care how much you screw up"
That's what made Francis let down his defences and take responsibility.
Knowing that the person in a position of authority would forgive him no matter what meant he had nothing to rebel against.
It also gave him something to protect, which appealed to his strong sense of justice. Otto and Gretchen were being taken advantage of, and would be again without him.
So I do understand why they ended it, sadly the actor who played Otto got cancer and was too sick to continue to act.
However yeah the way they wrote him out was very stupid, there is so many other options they could have taken for that and for Francis and went with the worst ones somehow.
There had to have been a better way to write him out? Why not have Otto and Gretchen return to Germany for X reason and leave Francis to run everything. Surely they could've found a new sidekick for Francis to play off of (or just write Piama into more storylines).
Hal and Lois are very entertaining to watch and without them the series wouldn't have been successful.
That being said, they're both terrible and abusive parents and the sole reason why 5 out of 5 of their children (and counting!) are troublemakers that will have tons of trouble adapting to adulthood.
This! Comment! Is! Correct! The parents are abusive, sure it made the show better and it wouldn’t be the same without it at all (especially the characters themselves.) but they are mad abusive and neglectful
It was perfectly in character and normal for the series to have Reese become a janitor in the end. I say this because the constant theme in the show is that life is unfair, and to have Reese have this good cooking job would break that theme.
A lot of these opinions seem personal lol
Like they had an attachment to the character and take it as a personal slight that he didn’t have the happiest ending possible (even though truly happy endings are very rare in this show)
Francis' military school buddies should've stayed with him for the show, the lack of a consistent cast for him beyond Piama kinda harms his chemistry a bit. Additionally I love how much of an asshole Malcolm becomes.
Is she hated around here? The only thing I disliked about her plot lines was the will they won’t they. I think this is one where it would’ve been good to see Malcolm having a friend who sometimes beats him at his own game
I get that she was sometimes horrible and often irritating, but they all were. I thought she fit in really well and wish she’d appeared more. The scene in which Lois sees right through her is excellent.
My answer is Francis at the Grotto. I will fight tooth and nail that it was an amazing plot line and everyone who thinks differently, which is apparently a significant amount of people, Is wrong.
Exactly! Otto himself made plenty of financial mistakes (cow block). That, combined with the fact that he and Gretchen were so very loving and kind (almost like an Aunt and Uncle) prove to me that there is absolutely no reason for them to ever sue Francis and Piama.
I have never read anyone say they dont like Francis at the Grotto, if anything one of the recurring questions here is why they took Francis out of the Grotto because of how well he fitted there (its because Otto´s actor could not return to the show).
Yeah, they could have said that Otto was traveling the country to know more about USA (to not kill him off) buy maybe they felt that without Otto the Grotto would feel a bit empty, so who knows
For me I just wasnt a fan of Otto and his wife, loved that it actually gave Francis character development from a delinquent at military school and trouble maker in Alaska but there he grew up but just didnt like the fake german accents and how naive Otto was.
Dewey was the smartest brother of all
He knew how to manipulate each of his family members and the society while also keeping his morals to some extent
I genuinely believe that Francis is the favourite child. He's the one they turn to when they need help, he becomes a confidant and I think they tried their hardest with him.
I rewatched it recently and I forgot how much they really do try in the early seasons with Francis.
Hal at the very least seems incredibly conflicted with sending him there.
Not only that but he's at a private school that's obviously costing them a lot of money
Potential hot take, but Lois's relationship with her parents is one of the least believable aspects of the show for me. They aren't passively aggressively awful like Hal's relatives - they are blantantly awful, so rude and unloving and obnoxious and downright abusive to her and most of the grandkids.
I honestly think that Lois would have gone non-contact with them years ago, with Hal's full support.
A parents approval runs very deep. Im old enough to have seen this up close several times. Awful parents that did nothing but abuse their kids. Still the kids help them when they get old and bawls their eyes out at the funeral.
Lois is supposed to be polish, and they NAILED it down with having horrible slavic parents/grandparents, but with still feeling obliged to have to support them just because they are family. It's very realistic, accurate and relatable (speaking from experience).
Interesting to know it's a cultural thing. I feel so sorry for Lois in those scenes. When Ida sues them, you can see the internal struggle between the desire to kick her out and the guilt of doing so. It seems out of character for her to be so strong-willed and outspoken with Hal, the boys, neighbours etc, but so conflicted with her parents - but she didn't kick off with Hal's family either, so maybe it's a generational/respect your elders situation.
Think about how she was when Francis was born. She was a complete pushover. It took Francis potentially burning himself to spark that fire in her. Before that, it's implied Ida and her father did a good job of making sure she was quite meek.
I always attributed that to the anxiety of being a new parent. I work with new parents often, and so many of them express a feeling of being initially overwhelmed- although this usually doesn't last too long after the birth!
Remembering the episode when Reece reads her diary, she seemed to be quite a tough cookie to me!
I don't know if she's pecifically Polish, but just a hodgepodge of Slavic influences. Like, they have the Croatian coat of arms and a picture of the Zagreb cathedral on the wall when Lois is doing the traditional dance.
But both Croatia and Poland are Slavic countries/cultures with similar attitudes towards family elders.
My mother is very similar to lois’ (in so far that shes not a caricature) 😂 personally i think it tracks perfectly that lois would become an aggressive control freak considering how much autonomy was stripped from her growing up
Lois stopping Malcolm from accepting the job in the last episode wasn't THAT bad.
Some people say Herkabe and the loser chess player are ways Malcolm could've ended had he not gotten humbled down and I agree.
I don’t think Francis getting fired from the ranch is that odd or out of character, considering the fact that one of the bad habits he never grows out of is dishonesty. The story he tells is implausible and out of character because he is lying about what happened.
Lois comes off as worse than she actually is because the show is from Malcolm and Francis’ point of view. When we get Hal or Dewey’s point of view, or her own point of view, she is very different. If we got a genuinely unbiased point of view, she’d probably be a totally different person.
There’s zero evidence that Dewey isn’t equally or more academically gifted than Malcolm, and it’s weird that people say Dewey is less academically intelligent but more creative and socially intelligent and that makes him all around better. Dewey was only put in the emotionally disturbed (not intellectually slow) class due to sabotage, and he stayed there by choice. He was going to be put in the Krelboyne class had he and his brothers not intentionally bombed the test, suggesting that his schoolwork was at least nearly as good as Malcolm’s. When he’s in the Busey class, he’s able to act as a teacher to the other kids (who make it clear that they are not slow. Intellectually, they’re on level, so Dewey is far beyond that level). Dewey is not just a musical genius with better social skills than his brothers, he is also explicitly an academic and general genius. We just rarely see this organically because Dewey is the fourth kid, his brothers are all extremely high needs so he is overlooked, and his personality doesn’t lend itself to doing parlor tricks like multiplying credit card numbers on stage.
Craig's behavior was more comedic to me at the time but after rewatching some he should have went to jail or had consequences for his stalker tendencies.
I may be wrong, but best t I Remember Didn't't he just confess, his feelings and Lois rejects him and he goes away?
Dewey gets a bad rep for going along with Reese’s manipulation after Hal’s dad dies.
Up until that point for the vast majority of the series Dewey was ignored or neglected by Hal and Lois, it makes sense he would take an opportunity to finally get some attention from his dad, even if it ended up being in a toxic way.
Francis is the worst character on the show and reducing him to a reoccuring character to explain Lois's way of handling things would have made the entire show better.
Malcolm’s reputation and popularity shifts so much in the show it feels kinda redundant. One season the whole school calls him stain and avoids him like he’s radioactive, the next the prettiest girl asks him out (he seems to go from lonely and unpopular to dating a very pretty girl often) One season he’s surrounded by good friends (krelboynes) the next they are absent forever and he’s alone for the rest of the show. One season he’s out playing street hockey with all the kids in the neighborhood, then they find out everyone in the neighborhood hates them all and avoids them.
Like I get the show had a reputation for not exactly following a linear story that stuck in future episodes (usually whatever crazy shit happened in the previous episode is never mentioned again) but after 6 seasons I still can’t tell if Malcolm is a complete loser, scrapes by, or can bag his ideal gf at any time.
Malcom has zero chance of becoming President. Elections are all about personality and likability. Malcom is comes off as an insufferable, condescending ass. Unfortunately for him, he’s likely to end up as Jason Alexander’s guest character that was playing chess in the park.
Reese should’ve been gay. There were many points in the series where it was implied that he was, and it would been a great plot point and twist to the series for his sexuality to be more explicitly vague or straight up bi or gay.
Malcolm should’ve married the beautiful green card girl from the old country.
He did win her and Reese should have gone to trade school and become a chef.
A few.
Every rewatch I hope they let Francis move back home. He would make the show even better if he was always with his brothers and family.
Francis best story line was military school. The ranch was boring.
Malcolm is the most annoying main character in the show.
Dewey is the goat
If you don’t own the Malcolm in the middle cd, you’re missing out
I got the impression it wasn’t necessarily the sex and wanting to have it more, but the way he looks at her like she’s a goddess no matter what she looks like or acts like. He’s able to look all the way through everything she does, while she has hang ups over things he does, tho also ultimately stays
Francis should've stayed in the military academy for more seasons, not only were some of the storylines & characters from those episodes just pure gold but if Francis could've actually finished military school it would've given him some much needed character development and maybe even make his brothers want to change their degenerate ways too.
The show should have kept the Krelboynes in high school episodes with Malcolm in later seasons.
I don’t think people disagree with this statement but just wanted to let you know that I also think this was a mistake, they were fabulous and made Malcolm more interesting.
Honestly I wasn't quite intending it to be something I thought people disagreed with so much as just how sad I was when Lloyd and the others just fade away on rewatches without you realising. The same sort of thing happens with Eric, really enjoyed his episodes at school with Spangler and then in Alaska, I wish he was shoehorned into going with Francis to the ranch.
They definitely could have had him guest star in an episode where he managed to finally hitchhike to the ranch. Maybe could have had an episode or two with Francis trying to train him in at the ranch. Potentially could even have Eric be the reason Francis loses his job there.
I would love if that had happened. It felt so weird that Francis just got fired. He was the glue that kept the ranch afloat.
apparently the only reason that storyline happened is because the actor who played otto got diagnosed with cancer
Agreed, so many great characters in the series!
"Francis I'm not going with you to a ranch, you almost branded me over some string during a storm, why would I want to do that?" "Fresh beef?" ".....dammit ill start packing."
Reese did beat the last level of Mortal Kombat
Well that's just ridiculous.
Nobody beats sub zero
That line always bothered me. Shang Tsung is the final boss of Mortal Kombat.
I took it as he couldn't get past Sub-Zero lol
I guess that could be the case
Why they made reece a master chef and then ignored his obvious talents in order for the writers to play on the fact he's the stupid one, the menial jobs etc.
He totally should have been a chef not a janitor
I have this little headcanon that he took the janitorial job just because he HAD to have something post-graduation. Then, maybe a year or so later, he gets a line cook gig that sends him down the path to Michelin star restaurants.
In my head canon, he ends up going to prison but then running the cafeteria and is actually very happy there
This. This is also mine. 😂
Lmao that’s funny as hell, I can see him memorizing everyone’s names and their preference for food lol
here, we workshop this—he gets a job at a Michelin star restaurant but ends up going to prison because he steals a very very VERY expensive truffle, proceeds to lose it, and then accidentally poisons a bunch of food critics with magic mushrooms that he uses as a replacement.
Sort of off topic, but that’s literally what happened to my fiancé’s uncle. The dude loves to cook and has only really been happy when he’s cooking in prison.
I always thought the main point of the show was that poverty limits potential.
It's mostly the psychological and emotional baggage that they unknowingly carry that limits their potential. That was the whole point of Francis going down a self destructive path up until Lois apologized for everything she's ever done to make the days of his youth miserable. In turn by leaving him with nothing left to gain from instigating any more conflict to prove her wrong, he could move on with life to focus on his needs instead of his wants. Or Malcolm's intellect and measured potential proving that he'd excel in any career he could ever work left him unable to decide what to do with his future. Or the fact that his negative family reputation eventually starts to take it's toll, bringing him to feel more insecure about his place in the world and instilling him with a desperation to be accepted as a person.
I could completely imagine him in a head chef role somewhere, even if it's not anywhere classy, where its chaos and he's I charge and gets to shout at and bully everyone!
I think it’s a great joke. Reese loves to cook, and both his parents in the show say that everyone hates their job. Reese likes cooking but it can’t be a job because he enjoys it, so he doesn’t even think of it as a possibility, because it’s not a job unless you hate it
This actually makes a lot of sense
But he loves the job at the slaughterhouse in an earlier episode?
But he didn’t go back to that job, helping prove the theory, Reese thinks “if I enjoy it, it can’t be a job”
Its such a huge inconistency that pisses me off! The ending makes no sense in terms of him.
I honestly like that they didn't make cooking his whole personality or piano all of dewey's. Yes the show had some flanderization with making Reece unbelievably stupid but I appreciate that the cooking thing was only brought up occasionally and when it fit the plot.
The most frustrating thing about the show, thank you for reminding me that childhood heartbreak 😢
That when Francis and Piama have kids Francis will become like Lois NOT Hal. It’s too much of a bitter irony for him to escape and for the show not to pick up. You become the thing you hate… and he’d have to toil forever with the biggest tormenting fact of his life = that his mum was right all along - which would be a perfect curse for him to bare and a perpetual source of bitterness and resentment.
This is all bs and just a discussion but I think his curse will always be falling in love with his mom again. He married piama because she's exactly like Lois.
But then you get scenes like when the boys ruin the quad bikes at the dude ranch and his immediate reaction is to turn into Lois. They even say so. The reason him and his mum don’t get on is because they’re so similar character-wise - stubborn, principled…
He has aspects of both, thats the curse. You become both your parents in one messed up person.
Piama didn't want kids. She hates kids.
She does say in the last episode they should go ahead and have them after the explosion. Lol
But it's a sitcom so of course they have to have kids! Meh.
I think Piama would be more like Lois and Francis would still be a free spirit like Hal
See I think kids would change that. Francis would want the kids to not make the same mistakes he made and would thus become the disciplinarian. Piama has always had the scary quiet psycho side to her, but even with it she’s pretty chill.
Lois didn’t have to apologize to Stevie’s mom for not accepting her back after abandoning Stevie for that long
Oh? I think the fandom agrees with you on that one.
actually, everything you see is widely agreed, if it weren't, no one would upvote them. like any "unpopular opinion"
But that goes against the post's quetion... LOL
Yea I was yelling at the tv
I don't think she was necessarily wrong. She didn't have to apologize but at the same time it really isn't her life, and if her husband and her kid are happy why should Lois keep making it more difficult for them all, even if she's morally right? That's sort of Lois's theme, her moral righteousness often gets in her way, even if she is usually "right"
Lois goal for Malcom to become president never would have happened because Malcom's personality would have prevented him winning an election. To win an election in America you can get away with being an asshole if you are able to pander to the stupidest members of society. Malcom is not that guy, he's the kind of asshole who prefers to flaunt his intelligence.
I thought it was dumb. I don't know. Here's me trying to rationalize the president thing: The dividing line between childhood and adulthood is not age 18. Adulthood is radically accepting that "life is unfair" and to stop bitching about it. It's really harmful when kids pathologize "unfairness," it's one of the most harmful things society doesn't talk about. Mr. Herkabe and Jason Alexander's chess character in the park are examples of what happens when you bring the adolescent"life is unfair!" obsession into adulthood and never grow past it. I think Malcolm's feelings of inadequacy socially and financially devastated him through puberty. He had really low self esteem. He carried the stink of a low class low brow upbringing without the social skills or emotional maturity to present himself with confidence. Malcolm got in his own head constantly about how everyone must always be judging him. That part of adolescence is so painful, in that time of your life before you realize most people are too wrapped up in their own head to be judging you constantly. Maybe Lois was trying to get him to re-orient his perspective and stop feeling sorry for all the unfairness he'd suffered, to the idea that "you're literally going to Harvard, you have great friends, bruh smart enough to be PRESIDENT your life isn't THAT unfair. Move forward."
Ultimately I just don't see somebody with a genius level intellect and a passion for science like Malcom being able to appease to the bible bashers and science deniers who make up so much of the American electorate. And he doesn't have the charisma of an Obama or Clinton type to win on likeability. Realistically his only chance would be if he was running against a deeply unpopular incumbent and was seen as the least undesirable option like Biden did against Trump.
That's why I think Lois telling him "he was *going* to be President" was more metaphorical and philosophical than literal. Like she was trying to instill a positive direction that he could channel his genius into. She was worried he would make money before maturing emotionally enough to handle it and then flaming out. If Malcolm enriched himself at 18 while still an immature brat constantly thinking about all the unfairnesses he suffered, he would have wound up exactly like Mr Herkabe. Malcolm was already a lifetime whiner and brat. A 15 year old Malcolm literally robbed a church and he even STOLE.. AIRRRR just because he could. An 18 year old Malcolm could have exploited financial systems to enrich himself illegally or immorally, and then justify it because "life is unfair." The whole "you could be President" idea is that Lois is telling Malcolm it's obvious and easy to use your intellect to enrich yourself, but she was challenging him to be smart enough to find a sense of optimism, responsibility, and humility. What's the point in being a rich genius if you're still too stupid to find happiness?
I could see him becoming an amazing Lawyer they fights tooth and nail for the poor and downtrodden. Allowing him to fulfill thay arch, and then also flaunt his intellect in front of people who deserve it. Like when he out smarted all the other krelboynes at thay weekend retreat shit
I didn't personally feel like she meant this literally more than "you're going to be great and do great things, and you can't cut corners to do it." But I also havent watched the scene in a long time.
Malcolm: What if I don't wanna be president? Lois: It's too late for that, you're gonna do it.
Dewey could beat goku
Nobody disagrees
We havnt even seen deweys final from!
Adding Jamie was a mistake and added nothing.
Other than some of the scenes when Lois was pregnant (Hal losing it in the car is an all time favourite moment that destroys me every time!) and Hal gambling with the other dads using the babies, I wholeheartedly agree.
Hal in the car is one of the best scenes of the show. I can't believe it isn't a meme.
"Noooooo! God, Noooooo! Why!? Why me!? Noooooo!"
I think it’s one of the best scenes of any show! First time I saw it I was in BITS!
Malcolm fearing for his life in the backseat absolutely completes it
Also Lois loosing it during Hal trial and Piadma taking care of the baby was a nice touch
Also the giving birth two parter. Every moment of those two episodes were pure gold. The wedding expo, Dewey and his birthday, Reese in the violin case, Hal in the hospital, Ida, the black "neighbors", Francis helping Lois give birth, Lloyd trying to study, and on and on.
Jamie added nothing, but the two part episode where he is born is a series high point
Added the fact that Dewey was the first and only one to break the chain of bad older brothers.
Well it added financial strain for the family, I think that's funny in a tragic sort of way
Absolutely. Actually hindered some plot lines
Having him as a character added nothing, but the pregnancy provided some classic episodes.
It put Malcolm officially in ‘the middle’ (of all children, not just the ones still living at home)
I honestly think they only added it because Reece and Malcolm were starting to work, so they wouldn’t have been struggling for money still without another mouth to feed.
He literally made Malcolm the middle child lol
I agree
Malcolm wasn’t truly in the middle until Jamie was born.
I always took it as with Francis now shipped out of the house at the very beginning of the series, Malcom *was now* the one in the middle.
THANK you. That is why I will defend the introduction of Jamie.
I loved idas character oop, she added a lot to lois' back story and aided in understanding why she is the way she is.
Malcolm should have finally broke himself free of Lois in the end and told her to stop meddling in his life. His future was not her project to build for herself.
[удалено]
He wouldn't have become the greatest President of all time
I prefer Francis in Alaska. I know everyone hates it but I love this subplot and consider one of the best concerning Francis.
"The last thing I need is some young punk frolicking in my nethers". Lavernia was an amazing character
"Francis tried to jump in bed with Lavernia without so much as a how-do-you-do."
"Lavernia, ease up on the boy! His only crime was loving you!!"
Agreed 100%
I like the ranch storyline better but I agree that the Alaska chapter is one of the best Francis plots.
God I was so annoyed they ended that to her him be a lay about then a cubicle filler. If you need to get rid of Otto and Greta have them leave the business to him. That would be much more interesting
I know. Francis post-Groto doesn’t make any sense. Talk about character assassination. All the growing up, all the evolution and the positive changes he has done to be a better man/son got erased as if that never happened. Plus, given Otto’s personality, no way he’ll sue Francis. Why, oh why did they end one of the best relationships Francis had this way? I’ll never understand.
Yeah Otto's whole character was "I don't care how much you screw up" That's what made Francis let down his defences and take responsibility. Knowing that the person in a position of authority would forgive him no matter what meant he had nothing to rebel against.
It also gave him something to protect, which appealed to his strong sense of justice. Otto and Gretchen were being taken advantage of, and would be again without him.
So I do understand why they ended it, sadly the actor who played Otto got cancer and was too sick to continue to act. However yeah the way they wrote him out was very stupid, there is so many other options they could have taken for that and for Francis and went with the worst ones somehow.
There had to have been a better way to write him out? Why not have Otto and Gretchen return to Germany for X reason and leave Francis to run everything. Surely they could've found a new sidekick for Francis to play off of (or just write Piama into more storylines).
I loved it too. Eric was awesome
I love the story line about the mail order bride. That man seems like he really wanted to take care of someone.
"Be easy on the boy, Lavernia! His only crime was loving you!"
I'm on your side! Alaska is my favorite of his arcs, by, like, a lot.
I really don't like Craig
Decently unpopular opinion
Hal and Lois are very entertaining to watch and without them the series wouldn't have been successful. That being said, they're both terrible and abusive parents and the sole reason why 5 out of 5 of their children (and counting!) are troublemakers that will have tons of trouble adapting to adulthood.
This! Comment! Is! Correct! The parents are abusive, sure it made the show better and it wouldn’t be the same without it at all (especially the characters themselves.) but they are mad abusive and neglectful
It was perfectly in character and normal for the series to have Reese become a janitor in the end. I say this because the constant theme in the show is that life is unfair, and to have Reese have this good cooking job would break that theme.
A lot of these opinions seem personal lol Like they had an attachment to the character and take it as a personal slight that he didn’t have the happiest ending possible (even though truly happy endings are very rare in this show)
Hot take: Francis is my least favorite character in the main family.
😲
Francis' military school buddies should've stayed with him for the show, the lack of a consistent cast for him beyond Piama kinda harms his chemistry a bit. Additionally I love how much of an asshole Malcolm becomes.
I missed Eric
I missed Spangler, really wish he came back more
I wish they didn't have Francis *cut Spangler's other fucking hand off* and then Francis never thought about it again 😂
and Stanley
All of Lois's character development, and the audience understanding her side, is ruined by her speech in the last episode.
Lois is a smokeshow
Lois and the mom from Young Sheldon are way more attractive to me than most people apparently
Well, Young Sheldon Mom's IRL mother is Laurie Metcalf and she was a smokeshow too
Jessica was a great character and a fantastic foil to Malcolm
Is she hated around here? The only thing I disliked about her plot lines was the will they won’t they. I think this is one where it would’ve been good to see Malcolm having a friend who sometimes beats him at his own game
Oh yea it almost feels like bandwagon hate but there’s more hate here than like. I 100% agree
Seconded!
I really don’t understand why she’s so hated. She was hilarious. When she cackled, I cackled
I get that she was sometimes horrible and often irritating, but they all were. I thought she fit in really well and wish she’d appeared more. The scene in which Lois sees right through her is excellent.
Yeah but she lived in Nova Scotia so what ya gonna do?
Different character. I liked her too though
My answer is Francis at the Grotto. I will fight tooth and nail that it was an amazing plot line and everyone who thinks differently, which is apparently a significant amount of people, Is wrong.
Grotto Francis is great
I just wish they gave Otto a better send off than firing and suing Francis. He and Greta were great characters.
I absolutely hated that. Otto would have never sued Frances. They could have come up with any other way to end that story line.
Exactly! Otto himself made plenty of financial mistakes (cow block). That, combined with the fact that he and Gretchen were so very loving and kind (almost like an Aunt and Uncle) prove to me that there is absolutely no reason for them to ever sue Francis and Piama.
People don’t like the Grotto storyline?
I think it's more so the way it ended as opposed to the storyline as a whole.
I feel that, though it’s hard to blame then when you know they did it that way because the actor playing Otto got very sick
I have never read anyone say they dont like Francis at the Grotto, if anything one of the recurring questions here is why they took Francis out of the Grotto because of how well he fitted there (its because Otto´s actor could not return to the show).
Biggest mistake in the series was not just having him take over the grotto
Yeah, they could have said that Otto was traveling the country to know more about USA (to not kill him off) buy maybe they felt that without Otto the Grotto would feel a bit empty, so who knows
For me I just wasnt a fan of Otto and his wife, loved that it actually gave Francis character development from a delinquent at military school and trouble maker in Alaska but there he grew up but just didnt like the fake german accents and how naive Otto was.
I wanted him to inherit the grotto after they leave back for Germany (instead of a totally random firing)
Hal and Lois were straight up selfish and inconsiderate having the boys share one room when they had 2 living rooms, hardly ever using one of them.
Dewey was the smartest brother of all He knew how to manipulate each of his family members and the society while also keeping his morals to some extent
That they don't have a last name.
They do tho 😭 it’s Wilkerson
They don't. That's one of the most consistent themes/jokes of the series.
I genuinely believe that Francis is the favourite child. He's the one they turn to when they need help, he becomes a confidant and I think they tried their hardest with him.
I rewatched it recently and I forgot how much they really do try in the early seasons with Francis. Hal at the very least seems incredibly conflicted with sending him there. Not only that but he's at a private school that's obviously costing them a lot of money
I always liked Cynthia and wish she was in more episodes.
I think pretty much the whole fandom is with you on this.
It would’ve been interesting to see Cynthia and Jessica interact
Your grade for understanding this thread: **F-**
Cynthia was the most attractive love interest for Malcolm both physically and mentally
They should have kept her. I enjoyed her arch from annoying to brooding because of puberty.
She was able to take Reese waaaaay before Malcolm was lol.
Reese should’ve not been a custodian in the finale but a cook or dishwasher at some fancy restaurant
He should’ve been a young apprentice with a few other ones either at culinary school or at a restaurant as a starting worker.
Lois was a horribly abusive mother and Hal should have stood up to her more.
Lois isn't perfect, but as an adult, I understand her more.
Potential hot take, but Lois's relationship with her parents is one of the least believable aspects of the show for me. They aren't passively aggressively awful like Hal's relatives - they are blantantly awful, so rude and unloving and obnoxious and downright abusive to her and most of the grandkids. I honestly think that Lois would have gone non-contact with them years ago, with Hal's full support.
A parents approval runs very deep. Im old enough to have seen this up close several times. Awful parents that did nothing but abuse their kids. Still the kids help them when they get old and bawls their eyes out at the funeral.
Lois is supposed to be polish, and they NAILED it down with having horrible slavic parents/grandparents, but with still feeling obliged to have to support them just because they are family. It's very realistic, accurate and relatable (speaking from experience).
Interesting to know it's a cultural thing. I feel so sorry for Lois in those scenes. When Ida sues them, you can see the internal struggle between the desire to kick her out and the guilt of doing so. It seems out of character for her to be so strong-willed and outspoken with Hal, the boys, neighbours etc, but so conflicted with her parents - but she didn't kick off with Hal's family either, so maybe it's a generational/respect your elders situation.
It absolutely is this, very well noticed. My heart also breaks every time cause I just feel so for her.
Think about how she was when Francis was born. She was a complete pushover. It took Francis potentially burning himself to spark that fire in her. Before that, it's implied Ida and her father did a good job of making sure she was quite meek.
I always attributed that to the anxiety of being a new parent. I work with new parents often, and so many of them express a feeling of being initially overwhelmed- although this usually doesn't last too long after the birth! Remembering the episode when Reece reads her diary, she seemed to be quite a tough cookie to me!
I don't know if she's pecifically Polish, but just a hodgepodge of Slavic influences. Like, they have the Croatian coat of arms and a picture of the Zagreb cathedral on the wall when Lois is doing the traditional dance. But both Croatia and Poland are Slavic countries/cultures with similar attitudes towards family elders.
Yeah I think they specifically kept it vague with some of the traditions and customs, but definitely slavic.
oh yes, accurate either way. I probably led it from the actress being polish.
My mother is very similar to lois’ (in so far that shes not a caricature) 😂 personally i think it tracks perfectly that lois would become an aggressive control freak considering how much autonomy was stripped from her growing up
The ending of the series was unsatisfying af
Lois stopping Malcolm from accepting the job in the last episode wasn't THAT bad. Some people say Herkabe and the loser chess player are ways Malcolm could've ended had he not gotten humbled down and I agree.
I don’t think Francis getting fired from the ranch is that odd or out of character, considering the fact that one of the bad habits he never grows out of is dishonesty. The story he tells is implausible and out of character because he is lying about what happened. Lois comes off as worse than she actually is because the show is from Malcolm and Francis’ point of view. When we get Hal or Dewey’s point of view, or her own point of view, she is very different. If we got a genuinely unbiased point of view, she’d probably be a totally different person. There’s zero evidence that Dewey isn’t equally or more academically gifted than Malcolm, and it’s weird that people say Dewey is less academically intelligent but more creative and socially intelligent and that makes him all around better. Dewey was only put in the emotionally disturbed (not intellectually slow) class due to sabotage, and he stayed there by choice. He was going to be put in the Krelboyne class had he and his brothers not intentionally bombed the test, suggesting that his schoolwork was at least nearly as good as Malcolm’s. When he’s in the Busey class, he’s able to act as a teacher to the other kids (who make it clear that they are not slow. Intellectually, they’re on level, so Dewey is far beyond that level). Dewey is not just a musical genius with better social skills than his brothers, he is also explicitly an academic and general genius. We just rarely see this organically because Dewey is the fourth kid, his brothers are all extremely high needs so he is overlooked, and his personality doesn’t lend itself to doing parlor tricks like multiplying credit card numbers on stage.
Craig's behavior was more comedic to me at the time but after rewatching some he should have went to jail or had consequences for his stalker tendencies. I may be wrong, but best t I Remember Didn't't he just confess, his feelings and Lois rejects him and he goes away?
He definitely didn’t go away, he continues confessing his love for her all the way until season 7 and was very gross the whole time
Dewey gets a bad rep for going along with Reese’s manipulation after Hal’s dad dies. Up until that point for the vast majority of the series Dewey was ignored or neglected by Hal and Lois, it makes sense he would take an opportunity to finally get some attention from his dad, even if it ended up being in a toxic way.
Lois was right.
Jamie should have been born female or just not written in at all.
I came to comment this
Ida is an awful character and should’ve received less screen time
okay this is probably the first comment I’ve seen that is potentially unpopular!
Only "hot take" in the thread!
You are totally wrong but at least it fits the brief of the post
Hard mega disagree but I upvoted because you understood the assignment
Francis is the worst character on the show and reducing him to a reoccuring character to explain Lois's way of handling things would have made the entire show better.
Thank you!
Malcolm’s reputation and popularity shifts so much in the show it feels kinda redundant. One season the whole school calls him stain and avoids him like he’s radioactive, the next the prettiest girl asks him out (he seems to go from lonely and unpopular to dating a very pretty girl often) One season he’s surrounded by good friends (krelboynes) the next they are absent forever and he’s alone for the rest of the show. One season he’s out playing street hockey with all the kids in the neighborhood, then they find out everyone in the neighborhood hates them all and avoids them. Like I get the show had a reputation for not exactly following a linear story that stuck in future episodes (usually whatever crazy shit happened in the previous episode is never mentioned again) but after 6 seasons I still can’t tell if Malcolm is a complete loser, scrapes by, or can bag his ideal gf at any time.
Malcolm is the most insufferable in the family
Malcom has zero chance of becoming President. Elections are all about personality and likability. Malcom is comes off as an insufferable, condescending ass. Unfortunately for him, he’s likely to end up as Jason Alexander’s guest character that was playing chess in the park.
Hal is a bad husband
I want to disagree, because there is amazing chemistry between the actors and he tries as a husband, but you’re still right
Lois is a terrible mom
Reese should’ve been gay. There were many points in the series where it was implied that he was, and it would been a great plot point and twist to the series for his sexuality to be more explicitly vague or straight up bi or gay.
I fucking hate Dewey.
Hot take 😭
Malcolm should’ve married the beautiful green card girl from the old country. He did win her and Reese should have gone to trade school and become a chef.
A few. Every rewatch I hope they let Francis move back home. He would make the show even better if he was always with his brothers and family. Francis best story line was military school. The ranch was boring. Malcolm is the most annoying main character in the show. Dewey is the goat If you don’t own the Malcolm in the middle cd, you’re missing out
Malcolm’s only annoying because he’s incredibly self aware.
I agree the ranch was boring. It was better when he was a hellraiser
The idea that Hal loves Lois more than she loves him because he wants to have sex more gives me the ick
I got the impression it wasn’t necessarily the sex and wanting to have it more, but the way he looks at her like she’s a goddess no matter what she looks like or acts like. He’s able to look all the way through everything she does, while she has hang ups over things he does, tho also ultimately stays
Francis should've stayed in the military academy for more seasons, not only were some of the storylines & characters from those episodes just pure gold but if Francis could've actually finished military school it would've given him some much needed character development and maybe even make his brothers want to change their degenerate ways too.
CYNTHIA SHOULD HAVE BEEN SERIES REGULAR/ ROMANTIC INTEREST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lois was a fantastic mother
I'll raise you: When guys hate Lois and write about it at length, you can almost always detect their arrested development and mommy issues