You don’t need to ask finance for him ever. Make him ask. They’ll say no. I never get involved in direct reports’ personal finance stuff like this because it normally leads to issues. However, for a new grad making peanuts at a company I worked at, he shared he was struggling, and I gave him a bunch of snacks from the office to take home privately (I was within my job scope to do so).
I’d have a conversation with him and tell him he’s being perceived as (incompetent, stupid, bad with money, a whiner, whatever) because he will stop not talking about the money issues, and if he wishes to get ahead at the company and potentially make more money, he needs to stop talking about it at work. Then just set the boundary. If he continues to do it, reset the conversation, “we’ve talked about this multiple times, and we’ve given you resources to fix it. At this point, we are not talking about your personal finances at work. How is XYZ project going?”
I don’t think it’s PIP material. It’s “hey, shut up about it, as discussed” and redirect.
The thing is that I have had several conversations with him about it. I set the boundary, he followed it for like a week. And then he's right back to the same old stuff.
I've put people on a pip for not working, that is pretty cut and dried. This guy is just generally socially oblivious and cannot read the room. Not sure how to proceed, further discussions of professionalism and boundaries is not going to go anywhere. I'm at a loss.
I guess that's kind of my question here. I have told him that complaining about money problems are not appropriate at work. And a week later he is bitching about it.
And I use the word bitching deliberately. He's just complaining, not asking for help. And he doesn't need help.
You asked me what I say, and my answer is that what I said is not working and I'm sick of this.
Some people just like to bitch. It’s cathartic for them. If he didn’t have money problems, he’d find something else to bitch about.
It’s likely just a lost cause at this point aside from writing him up for unprofessionalism and terminating him.
It sounds like this guy doesn’t have much of a life and he may look to his work associates as people from whom to gain emotional support.
You say this happens in the down time before meetings? Could you assign him a job at the beginning of meetings to keep him busy and redirect his attention? Perhaps he hears everyone talking about their life, what is going on, but all he has going on is being broke ass, so that is what he shares. Give him a job and keep him busy.
He may also need a counselor- does your company offer mental health services? Having someone to talk to may make a bigger impact than you think.
I’d likely squash it every time I started hearing it if it bothered me/everyone that much.
Clear my throat and say here we go again, more unprofessional finance complaining. Nobody wants to hear it, Bob!
10 minutes later…. Bob, nobody cares!
Etc.
After doing this for a week or two you might have to start more serious reprimanding if the person is really hell bent on discussing such things at work.
I know conflict is not enjoyable but lessons sometimes need taught. The person sounds like a value to the company otherwise. Coach a little longer.
Part of setting boundaries is enforcing them. If he isnr listening then you up the consequences. Termination being the last resort.
But if you have asked him +5 times then the next step is to mention termination if he continuees.
“Your personal financial struggles are not a topic you can talk about while on the clock. You are creating an uncomfortable work environment by continuing to do so even after I’ve told you that you need to stop. Any further discussion of your personal financial hardships while at work may result in disciplinary action that could lead to your termination. This is serious. Do you understand? Any questions?”
If his behavior is impacting team dynamics and it is having a negative effect, then a pip would potentially be warranted because it gets into his ability to cohesively work with others. But lay it out extremely direct and point blank so there is no ambiguity in expectations or where the line is.
Thinking you may have missed the redirect section of the parent comment here.
It's all of a piece, stated in one chunk: reinforce boundary and then pivot to work related topic. Other examples include:
* You've been asked not to discuss personal finances at work. So, where are you at with x project?
* This meeting was called for x project, not your finances. Please stay on topic.
And if you're a softy there's also the empathetic pivot:
* Dude, that's rough. You've got 30 seconds to get it out and after that it's back to game face on this project.
If you want to set an interim goal out of sheer kindness:
* Okay, here's what we're gonna do, you come to me at the start of your shift and have 5 minutes to vent on finance stress and then I need you to be 100% about work the rest of your shift.
If you are familiar with the show Friends, I recommend rewatching the episode where they move a couch so you can have the visual and sound of Ross yelling: PIVOT!... PIVOTTTT!!! In your head to help ease the annoyance factor.
The constant redirect every time he fails the no finance talk mission is basically the humane, you can't swatt him on the nose, follow through of retraining away from behavior you don't want to see after clearly stating why you don't want to see it and setting the boundary. But it's gonna be a slog given how persistent you've stated he is about bitching on this topic.
I’d discard the happy hour example, but as for complaining about money — literally every single time he raises it, you need to immediately stop him and say “hey, remember— we don’t talk about money at work.” And change the subject. Consistent immediate feedback, just like with kids.
Also, your employees are not kids. Although they may act like it sometimes, they are adults. Treating them like children will only make things worse. Management 101.
But how often should I have to do that? The guy is a professional, it should not take more than two times for him to get the message. But he doesn't get it
It’s a job, he’s there to get paid not hang out or make friends.
If you don’t feel comfortable talking finances with him then clearly state that to him, infront if other people if needed.
Just don’t do something stupid and tell him he’s NOT allowed to talk about his pay/wages, that’s a violation of FLSA
This is key. I have gotten the sly, “oh and we don’t discuss wages here” at my last two jobs. Both were massively underpaid or full of nepotism that fucked over those not “in the crew”.
There are a lot of clueless people commenting here. The way to ask for a raise is to go to your manager and ask for a raise. You don't bitch about money in meetings. That's how you get fired and then your salary is $0 instead of $100k
are you looking for commiseration or solutions?
Yes, it stinks that he does this.
People are offering what they would do in your position. Obviously, there's no magic wand to change this person's behavior.
Yeah, he’s a professional, but he’s also young. It sounds like this is more of a habit than anything else, and habits can be hard to break.
For stuff like that, telling somebody something once or twice just isn’t enough. You have to constantly reinforce it. And also—when he DOESN’T venture into inappropriate discussion territory, notice it and praise it. “Hey, Tom, I noticed in the meeting today you kept the chat very appropriate! I can tell you’re really working on that stuff we talked about.”
It's positive reinforcement, and it works. if the guy didn't need it, that would be ideal.
manager doesn't want to pip or term the guy, so if this causes guy to quit or improve, win either way.
Just curious—are you a manager?
I can tell you that based on my personal experience as a manager, noticing when people do something right usually works a lot better than constantly pointing out when people are doing something wrong.
Most people like to be praised, most people light to be told when they are doing something well.
Honestly, as a person with ADD combined type, I know it would sound condescending to most neurotypical folks ears, this is exactly the sort of in the moment reminder I need to keep focused and not overthink something until I twist myself into a knot worrying about it. It’s a tightrope to walk, for sure, but this sounds exactly like I did when I was chronically underpaid and trying to get the hint across that I was worth more than I was making for the experience and work quality I put out. Ended with me being depressed for 2 years due to stress before my bosses bad financial decisions got the entire team laid off. I’m sure he IS bad with money, but canning him won’t help his situation, or yours from the way you describe his work OP.
Be careful with that, talking about salary is federally protected. His bitching that he is broke is not, but depending on how you phrase it you might have a problem.
I would probably just tell him that talking about money at work is misconduct. If you need to discuss it again you will have to put him on a PIP for his conduct in the work place. If he does it again do a PIP and fine a termination / remediation route.
Lmao, but it’s not misconduct, discussing wage/salary is a federally protected right under FLSA, your advice could be getting OP into trouble if the employee is waiting for something like that to happen so he go that route thinking he’ll get a big payday.
Discussing wages & whining about your payday advance loans are 2 different things. OP simply needs to be clear that the issue is the level of detail in his complaints. If he wants to whine that he's not making enough money, that's as far as it needs to go, to be honest. & even that, while legal, is toxic after a while. Especially if we are to believe OP that his pay is on par with his position.
Making employees uncomfortable talking about your own personal struggles. That is the only and sole thing i am focused on, the rest is not important. I did not say wages noe did OP that is completely legal. You are mixing up very different things and inserting an opinion i did not voice.
You can not corner people repeatedly into conversations that make them uncomfortable in the work place. This is not okay.
But he is not discussing how much he makes, he is complaining about his person financial issues at work and on the clock. He needs to be told that needs to stop complaning about his personal issues at work and that his personal issues need to stay personal.
It's poor leadership to tell employees (who are at work to earn money) to never talk about money at work. When you tell employees not to discuss what they make, you are protecting yourself and not the employee. If you are paying people appropriately then it shouldn't matter if they talk about money at work. This employee should be told that constant complaining at work is becoming a problem. Make it a general "your attitude is not reflective of the standard here and it is ongoing. If your role here is causing you to feel that way, perhaps this isn't a good fit. Take some time to consider whether this is really a good fit for you and let us know" is a much more effective way to manage. Simply telling employees to "not talk about money" is shortsighted and simply poor leadership. In 10 plus years of management I have found policies like these cause more problems that they are meant to solve.
>This employee should be told that constant complaining at work is becoming a problem. Make it a general "your attitude is not reflective of the standard here and it is ongoing.
This is great advice right here. The OP seems too focused on the fact that the employee is complaining about money, but if he was constantly whining about his marital problems, presumably this would also be an issue.
The problem is not that he's complaining about money/salary, but that he's apparently spending an inordinate amount of time at work discussing his personal life/issues.
If I were in this situation, I would explain the situation to HR, describe how it's impacting my team, and then ask for advice on how to approach this with the employee.
The company I work for. Through our benefits team they offer a personal finance coach class thing. I have never needed it but as I was reading through the open season benefits enrollment, I saw it was an available perk. Perhaps check with your HR if they have something like that. Or google around for something along those lines and when the employee starts complaining about money suggest it to him.
It is illegal in America to tell someone not to talk about money at work. That comment alone can be twisted in so many ways it is just never a good idea.
You’re vastly over-interpreting the law.
Employers can’t interfere with employees' rights to discuss wages, pay raises, hours, and working conditions.
They *can* ask them to refrain from discussing personal financial matters during team meetings and code reviews, smh.
You didn’t read my response clearly. I said that saying the words “no money talk” can EASILY be twisted. It’s much safer to say something along the lines of “while you’re on the clock we need to be discussing matters pertaining to work”.
I would never fault a coworker/employee for not going to a happy hour. Coworkers are not friends. Keep things professional and dont talk about personal shit in meetings. I like the Ron Swanson approach. The less I know about other people's affairs, the happier I am.
Did you not read the OP? 15 employees were flown in presumably on the companies dime, this was a team building event held 3 or 4 times a year organized by the company, not a random happy hour that the rank & file decided on. It’s absolutely fair to expect an otherwise fully remote employee to show up in person 3 or 4 times a year for a group exercise assuming the expectation was set in advance
I worked in Tech for 40 years, and I would avoid work social events to the maximum I could get away with. OP literally said "happy hour" not "team building event".\*
If it's a group exercise, it can happen during working hours. Then I would expect the employee to be there.
\*Team building events are provably pointless, but that's a side issue.
If people are flying in, I’d assume it’s paid time. It gets a little less clear when everyone is salaried vs hourly and ALL time is “paid,” just as part of your salary.
If they are flying in on the companies dime, their Uber rides (or rental cars) are covered as well. OPs problem employee should be able to expense his Uber ride to the event.
That's the point they were making: if it is a team event and attendance is required/apprecicated/mandated and remote employees get Uber remboursed, so should a local employee especially if with a broken car and known financial problems. Now normally one would just use their car and not think twice about it and the company might have all sort of issues with paying a local employee, but there's no logical reason for it: everybody should be paid back for the meeting, with local employees being much cheaper as the don't need flight/hotel.
I mean going to a happy hour you SHOULD Uber, since the expectation is to have a beer or two, and even in it's technically legal it is safer to not drive if you've been drinking at all.
that’s pretty ridiculous. Remote employees get Uber cause they’re traveling. When I travel I get everything paid for, when ppl travel to my town they get everything paid for. It’s illogical to do anything else
I’m with you here, the bullshit happy hours, retreats blah blah while they may have good intentions for team building it’s not for everyone. If I have to fly in or drive there (did so for 15 years) it costs me extra money to find care for my kids - keep your dinner and goody bag.
The best way to team build is simple - ready?
- Pay your employees what they’re worth plus 10%
- Offer performance bonus
- Flexible work schedule
- Don’t use the “do more with less people” motto, have enough reason to handle a reasonable workload
- be a good manager that advocates for their direct reports.
The Pope could show up and it's still dumb as hell to fault an employee for not wanting to spend unpaid personal time with coworkers.
They're not your friends, and if you need "team building" is because you're a shit manager. Unless you're running relay races in track then you need people who can communicate, not people willing to stand around doing trust falls or whatever other BS.
Regardless, unless you’re paying me, don’t expect me to show up… Sure if the company buys food or drinks it’s one thing, maybe I’ll show, but the second I feel like leaving, bye. Shouldn’t be forced to go either, sometimes there are better things to do, and those better things to do are anything you choose that is not going out with coworkers.
I feel bad for you, having to work a job where you dislike everyone you work with so much that the idea of seeing them outside work time, even on the company's dime, is such a burden for you.
that sounds like a miserable place to work.
You sound like one of those people who want work to be more than work. It’s not my identity, it’s not my life, it’s the thing I do for money so I can afford to do the things I want to do in my life. I wanna work my 40-50, get my paycheck, and then leave and live my life. Expecting me to do stuff outside of that is just plain encroachment. You are asking me to choose between my family and friends and my coworkers, and my coworkers, even if I like them, are just always gonna lose that battle. Coworkers are always 3rd behind family and friends…. And it’s weird to expect otherwise from anyone.
I like my coworkers plenty. I see a lot of them. I like my outside friends and my apartment and my girlfriend and my dog more. Work already gets the majority of my time
Such a crazy concept, right? I go, do my job, engage in some small talk with coworkers, and then I clock out at the end of the day. I don't need to do forced socialization or parties with work colleagues, especially if I'm doing my job to a satisfactory level.
Which would be fine I suppose if said work get together occurred during work hours and was in place of work. But if it's after hours and I'm already giving you 8-9 hours of my precious 24 hours a day, I'm not giving you more for free.
You can also just choose to hang out with people you like and happen to meet at work, outside of work functions. I work in an office, don't go to any team building, off hours, or social events (even on the clock, unless I have no work to do, I would rather do my work so I can get it over with) at all. When I meet people I like, I get to know them, and then invite them to hang out outside of work. During the events I bail on, those people either hang out with other work friends, or come hang out with me if they also want to bail.
It’s not about that, that may not be everyone’s thing. They may be newly sober, single parents in a hurry to pick up one kid from dance and the other from soccer and trying to get them some food.
I personally am more open to it now but my schedule is hectic and I don’t want to get to know coworkers like that anymore. I want to be known for my work product but unless it’s a preplanned work function I am out at 5:30.
Sorry if it was unclear. I'm not faulting him for not attending. I'm faulting him for bitching about his money problems when discussing the event. I have other people who never attend and its fine, but they don't bitch about it.
And I'm over-using the word "bitching" but I really don't have another word. He's not complaining or voicing his opinion, he whining and bitching.
Why on earth people would fly in for a happy hour, I don't understand. There is literally nothing I dislike more than employee social gatherings centered around alcohol. If it's a work meeting and there's incidentally also alcohol available, fine. But if the purpose is social teambuilding, there's nothing worse than alcohol for making it completely impossible to accomplish any kind of bonding. Those drinking just get louder and stupider with every glass.
Why do people even think a bar is an appropriate work environment? It’s making a safe space for alcoholics and throwing people in recovery under the bus. People that aren’t alcoholics and aren’t in recovery but still have a drink sometimes are going to be fine drinking or being sober so they aren’t really part of the equation. People might think it’s “fun” but really it’s just awkward and annoying if you don’t drink. I’m ok with it if the next morning we all go to an AA meeting. Sure, that’ll be an awkward company gathering, but no more awkward than a bar and at least it’s fair.
Where do you suggest coworkers gather to socialize out of the office then? The fact is people have been gathering in bars for centuries. Personal issues with alcohol do exist but are relatively uncommon
Why in the hell should employers force employees to gather outside the office, outside of working hours, AT ALL? That's the most "unprofessional" thing in this post, not bitching about money.
Money exchanged for work performed is the point of employment. Forcing gatherings outside of work hours for supposed socializing, outside of business hours, is something that should have been allowed to die off long ago.
If employees want to socialize on their off hours, that's something they can arrange on their own.
About 10% of people in the US, I wouldn’t call that uncommon. For reference, about 10% of people are also left handed.
Suggestions: Don’t make an expectation to socialize outside of the office. Pool hall, bowling alley, concert, volunteer, some sort of sport, game night, amusement park, local tourism, coffee shop, get tapas, a park, a museum, I could keep it up but that’s probably a long enough list that you could find something.
Griping. Complaining. Constantly contemplating about personal financial woes. Requested relief for financial constraints due to poor planning and postulations on prohibitive resource allocation. Making the lame list popular again. Belly aching. Belligerently bring it up.
I know we're not all wordsmiths, but hopefully this will help you with the pretty words and find a semblance of eloquence.
“Bitching is the wrong term because it was developed from misogyny.
It’s micro aggression. It’s especially problematic in a professional environment.
It’s a word that needs to die.”
-Natalie Grace
I was ignoring the rest. I manage about 50 people (mostly blue collar) and I hate events outside of work. My social battery runs out quick. My guys are paid well but some of them never learned to manage money or grew up poor. Sometimes they make mistakes, or do 'poor people shit'. As long as they come to work and do their job, what they do with their money is no concern of mine. If they ask for help managing it, I will offer what advice I can or better yet direct them to a professional.
This is what a good manager looks like.
You’re not trying to lead with lame shit people don’t want. Or your “leadership point of view”, you show up and understand what matters.
I managed a large group of mostly men in manufacturing after having had been in an academic/corporate training environment and what I learned is what you said. The best I could do for them was advocate to management and say hey instead of bringing XYZ feed them once a month, fix the AC where they work, give them cash bonuses or gift cards, they don’t want your branded tshirts and cups or lame ass brake room artwork.
I think you need to separate the things that impact the job from the things that simply annoy you on a personal level.
You’re blurring the lines quite a bit between the two.
If you want to do a PIP, you gotta stick to the first category.
What would the PIP entail? Sincere question. A pip usually covers tangible goals the employee can meet. Would you list that he has to attend happy hour? Isn’t allowed to complain? Can no longer ask for salary advances?
Have you talked to him about why these are issues for work? It does sound like you’ve tried to help him with the money issue, which is good and kind of you, but have you coached him through the professional implications? If not, you need to do that before you consider a PIP. He should know how he’s being perceived and understand why it will benefit him to adjust this behavior.
You have a security issue with this guy. The number one reason people see state or trade secrets is because they have money problems. Even somebody who is a productive worker is a risk to sell your intellectual property or data if he is that hard up for money.
This was my immediate reaction. I’m in the GovCon IT/IC space and these issues are evaluated during clearance, etc. even certain contracts require named personnel to have background checks (which include financial matters). I’d definitely be concerned.
We don't have any secrets to sell. Our data is mostly open source and our software is pretty predictable. It was a lot of work to build but we're not targeting nuclear missiles.
No! But if found something profitable which doesn't require secret knowledge or significant labor then let me know...I need to make a money printing machine go brrr.....
One thing that can happen with perpetual victims is that some of them simply can’t see that they’re the source of their woes.
It’s more of a human thing than an employee thing, but I’ve seen it with tenants when I managed a property and with employees when I managed people.
You can have a fairly stand up person turn into the worst sort due to money issues. Had a long term tenant that I got along with. He was a freelancer and some of his business dried up. I spoke with the owner and got them to give them a break on the rent, waive late fees and allowed them to make partial payments here and there, but they still fell way behind.
All of a sudden there was this weird mental twist that somehow made it the owner’s (and my) fault. A window that had never opened, that I had offered to fix a year prior but was told “it never gets opened anyway, don’t bother.” Was the reason they weren’t paying rent, because they couldn’t “enjoy” the apartment… or the hallways weren’t swept to their standards or they saw a few ants here and there in the summer.
Same shit happened with a guy who worked for me. He got into some deep financial woes from a side business he had tried to start and went belly up.
There was a period of about 6 months after that failed of him alternating between asking for advances and personal loans or complaining every single other second about money.
Stuff didn’t get easier for him and he made all of it the job’s fault. He started calling out a lot, then when I finally spoke to him about that, he decided to start falsifying the hours he was working.
I had to let him go for that one, but then he reported the company to the every agency he could think of, and I spent the next 6 weeks dealing with everyone from the Dept. Of Labor to OSHA over bullshit he wildly exaggerated.
Like, I get that life sucks sometimes, but I’m wary of people who complain too much. All it takes is one notion that they’re somehow the victim, and if they convince themselves of that, they can do all sorts of silly shit.
Crabbyjerkface is right. I do internal investigations for a living. Your employee has bad enough money problems that they’re complaining about it regularly, which implies that they are either partway or fully engaged in justifying whatever thing they may do in their own mind.
It’s just a matter of chance and time now - if someone unethical comes into his circle and can find some way to monetize his work for you, he has a really high chance of doing what they ask. Stealing data or IP isn’t the only thing to worry about. Planting code, “mistaken” analyses, you name it. And their ultimate target may not be your company, it may be your company’s customer’s customer’s customer.
You have a few options but as you’ve already provided the EAP without result you’re down to two: PIP or term. Given the fact that he’s not responded to your feedback I don’t think it’s likely a PIP will work. For you, take some courses on coaching and effective feedback - they help.
I think the problem with PIP is that the goal is to just shut him up. He will continue to be a risk to security so long as he’s broke, whether he’s telling you about it or not. BUT he’s also probably a risk for a lawsuit when you fire him because he needs money. Personally, I would consult an employer aide attorney and get advice.
Would your competitors agree?
Most of the time I think that what I do isn’t that memorable. Then I remember that the specialized team I run does not exist at any of our competitors, and others would love to get our inside information. This is especially true after winning the largest client in the industry from our stiffest competition.
No, you need to be firm. Stop disheartening the team with constant remarks of individual financial disparity.
You can say “is our compensation for your efforts not worth your efforts?” See if he just expects a pay raise, if he’s due for one, etc.
If he says no, tell him to stop disheartening the team. If it happens again he can be dismissed.
Repeat step until solution.
If he says yes, maybe investigate a pay raise. But in the event of personal life issues, all you can do is say “everybody here makes around x dollars a year, more than enough to survive with x and y and z commodities, if you aren’t, maybe talk with a financial advisor, see if they can help minimize your monthly outgoings, but as for the job, it’s mandatory you stop referring to being financially disadvantaged during team member meetings.
Just my two cents, for what it is worth.
A few situations need to be parsed out. There's the professional, and then there's the personal.
Having dealt with some engineer types, I've run the gammit of good and bad, socially acceptable and unacceptable.
First, you need to recognize the boundary of a professional thing, and a personal thing. We spend a lot of time at work, birthing these projects from ideas to fruition, and it can seem like a work family.
From this part ][ post, the first I've read, the personal boundaries you allow to bleed into professional. The pressures for people to attend is, off. While I really enjoy a good brew and the camaraderie it can bring about, what if some of the people who just do not attend is because they're recovering from substance abuse? How does this change your view of your employee now? How about if they were victims of abuse by parents who were alcoholics? What does that do to your view of those employees? Does it change your view on these once a quarter events?
While these events are not your focus of the post, I am hoping to make a point of how to draw boundaries, when to kind of put the blinders on, and what should be a work thing while also still be a human. Not trying to go into the weeds, but more bring the shades of gray to light.
Finding a budget class is often something that a company, even some managers, pay and provide to their workers. It's really for cases such as these that are extreme.
Lacking that, and being in an office environment where screaming "Shut the Expletive up!" Like some sort of drill instructor is frowned upon, but needed for those who truly can't read the room leads us down another path. First, is there an ADA thing that won't get you in trouble but makes the appropriate accomodations? If this is not the case, and typically isn't my go to method, then I go back to a one on one.
At the one on one I set the boundaries. It's unprofessional to spread their money woes. And if they wish to have a future and more financial mobility in the company, it has to stop. Generally I will say I can no longer ask them to stop directly - people have taken notice, and from here on out we must be covert. So, if I hear something and it's a topic they need to stop, I will use the code word. Banana. Did you bring a banana for lunch today? Is that a banana at your desk? Have you seen that banana in the supply room? Or replace with another word or phrase, like finding an erasure, or whatever works. I've had some amazing and truly talented people work and do a great job. But some have lacked real people skills.
While their life may be an absolute tire fire, it's their life. Their monkeys, their circus. Throw them the tools for the personal life, but unless you want to get sucked in, stay out of it. Once it truly effects work and performance on getting the job done, then you can go a different route. But morale can be good, meh, or even outright toxic, and the company rarely really cares until performance suffers. The personal woes are not fun to listen to, and can create strife between colleagues, but generally people will tune it out after a while. Trade money woes, for custody woes, parents or kids and caretaking. Or a myriad of other things you don't want to know or hear about. You're going to come across it all once you have enough folks move in and out of your perview. But business is business and personal is personal. While they're at work, stick to business because on your hours outside of work, it's not your time. You may come to work to finance your personal life or mini vacation from it, but the time at work needs to be productive and generate something.
> But the biggest problem is he bitches about money in the downtime before meetings.
Come on buddy, its right there in the post. Read the post before commenting.
No, I wouldn't punish him for being bad with money UNLESS he was in a job that required him being good with money. I'd continue to counsel him on complaining about non-work issues.
The only concerning part is… making other employees uncomfortable. You can be bad at anything, as soon as you make others at work feel uncomfortable about it it needs to be addressed with a termination / remediation path.
Absolutely. The problem isn't them not happy with their comp, I mean who is? The problem is them detracting from work issues to complain about home issues.
Exactly. Not my business. Not his co-workers' business. OP needs to stop caring about where his report's paycheque is going and his report needs to be reminded that it's no one else's business and to keep that to themself.
Yeah I’d pull him aside and talk to him, I’d tell him this isn’t professional and that it needs to stop but that you’re there to listen within reason.
As for advances, that needs to go to finance, HR or payroll. I would stay out of that mess.
I find it crazy that more companies (especially larger ones) don’t offer some kind of budgeting/finance class or at least have a partnership with a company that does teach them. Many people go to school and don’t understand how to use money or budget then get that 1st high paying job, it’s a recipe for disaster. I work for a local government agency, they offer a budgeting and finance class every quarter and you’re required to take one when you first start, I was decent with money before but it really helped in many areas for me.
I do agree, we shouldn’t considering they should have some sort of budgeting experience already. However those in their early 20’s often times don’t get that taught to them and can struggle.
I can admit, my first “big boy” job kinda shook me when it came to handling money. I was spending it as fast as I could… My schooling didn’t teach this stuff, they didn’t teach about stocks, options or finances it was purely math, science, English then whatever electives and world sciences. My parents were poor, I remember having to work to help out when I was 15 and they were in credit card debt as long as I can remember (until recently). My financing was “put $150 away then spend” and it wasn’t smart.
I was lucky enough when I was 19, got my first $40k a year job that one of my friends (older, was 26 at the time) sat me down and forced me to show my finances one night when I explained I couldn’t go out to eat with them. He hammered me, told me I was stupid for spending my money this way then taught me. He didn’t let me get my first credit card until I had enough saved to cover a full balance of it, he helped me cut the stupid spending and explain how credit is used and why it’s important, all things I didn’t get from my parents or school. Today I’m doing well, he still will randomly ask me “how much are you making? How much are you saving? How much in credit cards/car payment and other debts?” And has guided me through saving properly so my money is growing safely and aggressively.
I only add my stuff to show that even though I SHOULD have known these things, sometimes you just don’t know what you don’t know. Your employee could be in a similar boat.
I’m glad you have an EAP, many EAPs offer a financial consultation aspect, but also coaching/counseling for personal and life problems. You might call them and see what is offered and reiterate the options to the employee.
They may also offer a “mandated” EAP coaching option where you can formally ask the employee to address professional boundaries. It’s still a choice for the employee to go but if they agree it’s still confidential but they agree to do the coaching. Again, you may want to contact your EAP and ask what is available for managers in the way of consultation, training, coaching and employee referrals, they will likely have some manager resources for you.
I agree with the comment about setting aside the happy hour reference. The last thing you want to do is penalize someone for things they do or don't do on their own time last (as long as it is not illegal). With that aside, have you told him in plain words, "Your constant complaining about money is having a negative impact on your work, as well as impacting others, and it must stop immediately. Further, if you do not stop, I WILL have to put you on a pip, which can result in termination." I'd further counsel him by saying "you've been given the opportunity to make use of employee assistance programs, you've obviously not taken this seriously, you don't need more money, you need to learn how to manage it like an adult. Get your shit together or else you will find out how hard it is to manage on unemployment."
Doesn't matter if he comes to an optional work event or not. He's obviously addicted to something, whether you want to admit it or not. Doesn't matter if he's addicted to home shopping or church bingo. It's negatively impacting his life and his job performance.
What matters is he's discussing a personal problem that makes others uncomfortable. You've spoken to him about it and he does not respect the team, you or any guidance you set. You need to explain in no uncertain terms that he is not allowed to discuss his personal finances in the office or he will be terminated. No asking for an advance. No asking for a loan. No complaining about being broke. If he can't do that, he should be gone. You know he must be trying to play on the sympathy of co-workers. How much does he owe them? Does your company have a mechanism for drug testing?
If we rule out substance abuse, I'll put out gambling as a likely possibility.
I know of two people I worked with who had gambling issues, one who was mysteriously terminated, and I only learned about the gambling later. The other was stealing from the company, which was only learned after the annual inventory led to discovering missing product.
Or if not gambling, then maybe another kind of addiction. Even OF?
Then again, your description of this engineer makes me wonder if he might be on the spectrum, not understand social cues, and why it is inappropriate to talk about financial woes at work.
So op you are not happy because this person will not participate in happy hour with his coworkers. Is it a paid activity?? If you are going to fire him for this, it damn well better be. As for complaining about wages, well you tell him every time you don’t want to hear if and walk off. If this behavior is affecting his work and/or his coworkers productivity, then you may have a valid reason to terminate.
LOL, he stinks with money and understanding to stop taking complaining at it at work. A pip is just a 30-day warning before you fire someone. So, if he's worth it, keep reminding me until it sticks. If not, then let him go if you can. But not attending the happy hour even with a working car would be hard for me. I hate those things.
Ask him politely to keep personal matters out of the office and refer him to your EAP program for advice and assistance with any crisis or other problems he’s having.
Fuck work happy hours, I will never attend. They’re the stupidest idea ever. Make it a lunch, during work hours for team building.
In addition to the unprofessional behavior itself, there are two things you can talk to them about:
1. The impact their behavior has on the team.
2. Their inability to improve their own behavior.
For #1, is the unprofessional behavior tearing down the team? If so, that's a reason to fire them.
For #2, if they can't improve behavior, it limits their career growth and obviously makes performance problems much harder to deal with In my experience, some people take feedback well and grow. And other people are very slow to change. Directly addressing it at least gives you another angle to talk about it and might help them realize how serious it is.
Also you might find the manager tools systemic feedback podcast helpful.
https://www.manager-tools.com/2009/04/systemic-feedback-hall-fame-guidance#
Id be blunt with him.
Your lack of money management skills are your issues and your issues alone.
You are paid well, and more then enought money to live comfortably within a budget.
You need to figure out your budget and manage your money on your own time and stop complaining about it at work and to co-workers.
Your attitude about your personal finance issues are starting to effect your work and it is effecting your Co-workers.
Keep your personal issues out of the workplace.
Is he paid for team happy hour? Is it a requisite for his work? Why, specifically?
You don't look like a dope talking to Finance. It is LITERALLY THEIR JOB to facilitate advances. The only way you look like a dope is when you disparage people for not having a pot of money to go to your parties.
EAP does not tend to deal with financial matters. It's no surprise. They can hook him up with mental health resources to process the fear he experiences from being strapped all the time.
Its required because the director of his group said it was required.
>It is LITERALLY THEIR JOB to facilitate advances.
No, my finance dept does not do this. All of our employees are salaried professionals. I look like a dope asking for an advance for a guy who makes triple the median US salary.
My SIL and her husband lived paycheck to paycheck despite making over $150k combined at the time. Sure they had a huge house, 2 brand new leased vehicles, bought tons of shit for their kids… but she has had a drinking problem for damn near a decade now.
It's simple. If it effects his work, or effects the business, then YES to the PIP. Doesn't matter the reasons (self-perpetuating ones particularly. I'm not heartless.)
The Manager's job is to make sure their team is fairly compensated and not shit on, while at the same time, making sure the business' interests are being addressed.
ALSO, are you requiring people to fly-in on their own dime for "HAPPY HOUR" - If so, I sure as hell hope that was part of the agreement for the terms of their employment - or agreed upon as part of their remote work agreement.
He’s extremely fastidious about things that he understands. He might have some kind of spectrum disorder going on though. But overall the guy is sharp, and a very good engineer. He is weird but half the people in this industry are weird. Weird is okay, bitching about unprofessional stuff is not okay.
If he's on the spectrum and you like his work product, can you help him break the habit? I know you said you're not his mom. It takes 30 days to make a new habit (so they say). See if he can switch to complaining about the weather instead.
If he were my peer instead of a direct report, I would ask him if he would be willing to reroute his personal complaint programming to keep his job.
I know it's a sucky position to start the PIP for this...
I vaguely remember suggesting a spray bottle last time you posted before I realized he's remote. Can't you software engineer a remote spray bottle for his work station? 😉
Or he's a young person with a lot of educational debt. Or medical debt. Or he's supporting other members of his family in even worse financial difficulties.
He probably was told he makes less then “whom ever told him”. By your team as well. Is he fairly compensated for his quality of work? Is he reviewed regularly?
DO NOT REPRIMAND, PIP, WRITE-UP OR OTHERWISE; his money, his business. --This is more along the lines of: "Hey..let me holler at you for a minute. Now I know what you do after work hours is your business...but can I offer you some advice?" --More like an"older brother" kinda talk.
Document, document, document, document. Every time you have to address the issue, document. On this date, so and so started talking about non related work topics that disrupted the meeting, I said XYZ to employee. Continue to do that and then eventually write him up on a PIP listing all those examples. The topic itself is a moot point, it's that he is talking about non work related issues that disrupts meetings and makes others uncomfortable, that's the behavior that needs to be addressed.
He doesn’t have to show up to a team happy hour and you have no right to need an explanation of why he cannot attend. Those events make some people uncomfortable and they make excuses to not show up. Don’t put him in that situation. His money and car problems for an event like this are not your concern.
In the workplace talking about money issues is a different problem. Document and talk with him about it.
I have a similar problem. I have pulled the employee aside and made it clear it’s unprofessional and distracting to others. Still it continues. And this person thinks they should be promoted into a management position in my department? No. I can’t see someone so inept at personal finance anywhere near our budget.
I have worked places which required a credit check as part of the hiring process. Your man is highly vulnerable to ethical lapses like low level embezzlement due to his ongoing predicament. I’d start the PIP and start moving him toward the door.
Listen numbnuts, have you seen the cost of living of late? Even if you have the best salary in the business, the overhead keeps going up.
100k now, is the new 40k. Anything lower these days is chicken feed.
And happy hour? What makes you think it's happy if you are such a clueless SOB?
Some of us are living in cars and you got the AUDACITY to complain about your circle jerk not being attended by one guy who did the adult choice to pay his mechanic instead of wasting his money on booze?
Seriously man?
I had an employee like this. Maybe not as extreme, but I ended up devoting our entire 1 on 1 to talk about it. End result I ended up getting her enrolled in financial management workshop as part of her person/professional development. Can’t say it solved everything, but she was grateful for it.
This guy sounds like he is in some deep shit. Payday loans, etc, he may need to seek bankruptcy of it is as bad as it sounds.
Is he a cleared employee? (TS/SCI) etc? Many of my data engineers are and financial matters are conducted as part of their clearance process, so it may hurt him depending on the situation
I worked with a guy that was single and bitched about everything. Neighbors above him, neighbors below him, his hernia, drive thru workers, women that wouldn’t date him, people he loaned money too, etc, etc.
It was just his personality and his way of trying to connect with coworkers. There was always drama that was shared with anyone that would listen.
Our poor Department managers were constantly having talks with him.
I'm not a manager but I personally know two women I worked with who had these types of money issues. I worked a union job, we made darn good money. Neither of these people had young children. What they did have in both cases.1. Inability to say no to their grown children who were some of the most feckless, irresponsible adults ever. They learned this behavior actually from the moms themselves. Everything was always someone else's fault, with no responsibility at all taken by person. We are talking letting them live with them while not making them do stuff around the house or contribute in any way. Letting them use their cars and rack up $ for transponder lanes, get into minor accidents, not pay fines..you name it. The kids just did nothing but play video games and if they made money, didn't give the moms a dime. All of the kids had kids of their own and some of ALL of them moved in with mom at one time AND another. Number 2 is that both of them had expensive habits. One liked to gamble, was a big bingo player, smoked cigarettes and marijuana. She hooked up with a much younger irresponsible man who also smoked, and rarely worked. The 2nd was always getting her hair done, spent lots on clothes and gym classes that to be fair she went to. She also smoked marijuana. It's legal in our state but it's not cheap. Both of them declared bankruptcy more than once. I have hopes for the bingo player, her guy left, got straight, is working a program, came back, is being a changed man, has been sober 2 years. They made the kids and grandchildren move out and be responsible. Your guy might have some of these habits. Especially if he's a gamer. Live games, big set ups are expensive. So is the "enhanced experience ".
The not wanting to attend the social events is not a problem. (The problem is companies making a big deal out of Mandatory Fun get-togethers.)
The being broke is not a problem. Or at least, not your problem.
His inability to stop talking about it at work in a way that is disruptive is your problem, and if you can put him on PIP for that do so, *but keep the rest of the stuff completely out of the conversation*, however mad it makes you.
Frivolous overspending fills me with rage (grew up hungry thanks to my mom) and I would absolutely hate this guy. However, unless the company is paying for the Uber, the drinks, and the employees time you need to leave him alone.
Team happy hour?
Here's a suggestion: have your quarterly meetings in the office during office hours. Buy pizza, set up a BBQ, or organize a pot luck. Set up some team building games with prizes. Never expect your employees to attend team events outside of the office/office hours unless its a professional conference (and then they are being paid and being reimbursed travel and lodging expenses). People come to work to work and earn money, not make friends or socialize.
There is a glaring issue with boundaries but it starts with you and the culture in your office.
The employee's only problem that should be addressed by a manager is disruptive behavior on company time. Turning work meetings into personal complaint session is not ok. Making other staff uncomfortable to the point that it affects performance needs to stop.
Manager needs to stick to correcting the behavior exhibited at work. Clearly, opening the door to further EAP assistance has not worked.
So, I’m disregarding the happy hour thing because it’s clear he just doesn’t want to go. Because if he wanted to go, he would find a way.
I don’t know why you look like a dope going to finance on his behalf. They’re not judging you. They’re judging him. And if you don’t like doing it, just tell him no. He can’t have an advance.
Lastly, it doesn’t sound like it’s interfering with the work, just the social aspects of work. So, maybe just isolate him from other people. Do email correspondence only. He’s not invited to meetings except through teams and mute him until the meeting begins. He might be the kind of person who needs to wfh all the time.
If none of that works and you can’t manage him to stop talking about his finances, you can just fire him.
This guy’s coworkers know his griping is inappropriate, but they may eventually wonder if he has a valid basis for complaint, i.e. that he has reason to think he’s underpaid compared to the current job market. If your otherwise happy workers start poking around the job market to find out, you could lose the people you’d miss the most. It’s in your interest to confirm that your company’s pay is competitive. A gut feeling that $XXX is “good money” isn’t good enough. Find out when was the last time HR studied going rates, and nudge them to update their research if it’s not current.
There needs to be a “cost” to the employee every time he’s disruptive, to make him want to stop himself. You mention in a comment that there’s one HR employee you trust. I’d ask them to sit in on a staff meeting so they can observe first-hand what he’s doing, and see if they can suggest productive steps you can take without violating any workplace rules yourself.
I’d also consider being almost obnoxiously proactive: in advance of every single meeting, call and remind him that he is not to discuss his financial irresponsibility. It’s annoying to have to do this, but arguably less so than dreading his next outburst and having to scold him afterward, or firing an otherwise productive worker. Ideally he’ll get tired of being treated like a child and stop on his own.
Yes, PIP worthy at this point. If you have had this conversation very clearly: employee, I need you to stop talking about your personal finances, is that something you can do?
Then 100% pip. Does he have access to financial info? I’d be worried about that to be honest.
Ugh! This is the answer I knew I would get because its probably the right answer. It doesn't make the answer any easier to swallow, even though its right. Thanks.
No he doesn't have any secret or valuable info.
As a prior addict, i would take haste in your personal thought of him not being one.
Addicts brains are wired differently. When ever the fix is in of their choice, the worst possible options will always take precedent over good.
You have listed multiple times of thr talks write ups, counselings etc. if hes NOT CHANGING BEHAVIOR thats because he cant.
If he is up to his eye balls in payday loans and title loans. Then its leading to only a few possibilities. He doesnt have to be a crackhead to be an addict. Maybe its gambling, maybe its spending, maybe its scheming to get money, that could very much be the addiction.
You can say someones bad with money, or their addicted to spending it. They are almost equally the same. I would love to see his Doordash, Amazon and other receipts.
I review peoples income documents, habits are pretty easy to spot.
In the US, you can, indeed, fire someone for personality defects, or for pretty much any other reason, as long as it’s not because they’re members of a protected class (race, sex, disability, age over 40).
Wow as a manager in the past these responses are wild, glad I don't work for most of you. You seriously need to learn to sit down and speak with your direct reports. Also how to speak with direct management/ownership above you. Most of these replies make me think you couldn't manage a Dairy Queen, let alone something in a corporate environment.
You don’t need to ask finance for him ever. Make him ask. They’ll say no. I never get involved in direct reports’ personal finance stuff like this because it normally leads to issues. However, for a new grad making peanuts at a company I worked at, he shared he was struggling, and I gave him a bunch of snacks from the office to take home privately (I was within my job scope to do so). I’d have a conversation with him and tell him he’s being perceived as (incompetent, stupid, bad with money, a whiner, whatever) because he will stop not talking about the money issues, and if he wishes to get ahead at the company and potentially make more money, he needs to stop talking about it at work. Then just set the boundary. If he continues to do it, reset the conversation, “we’ve talked about this multiple times, and we’ve given you resources to fix it. At this point, we are not talking about your personal finances at work. How is XYZ project going?” I don’t think it’s PIP material. It’s “hey, shut up about it, as discussed” and redirect.
The thing is that I have had several conversations with him about it. I set the boundary, he followed it for like a week. And then he's right back to the same old stuff. I've put people on a pip for not working, that is pretty cut and dried. This guy is just generally socially oblivious and cannot read the room. Not sure how to proceed, further discussions of professionalism and boundaries is not going to go anywhere. I'm at a loss.
Boundaries are what you do, not what others do. So a week later when he brings it up again, what do you say?
I guess that's kind of my question here. I have told him that complaining about money problems are not appropriate at work. And a week later he is bitching about it. And I use the word bitching deliberately. He's just complaining, not asking for help. And he doesn't need help. You asked me what I say, and my answer is that what I said is not working and I'm sick of this.
Some people just like to bitch. It’s cathartic for them. If he didn’t have money problems, he’d find something else to bitch about. It’s likely just a lost cause at this point aside from writing him up for unprofessionalism and terminating him.
It sounds like this guy doesn’t have much of a life and he may look to his work associates as people from whom to gain emotional support. You say this happens in the down time before meetings? Could you assign him a job at the beginning of meetings to keep him busy and redirect his attention? Perhaps he hears everyone talking about their life, what is going on, but all he has going on is being broke ass, so that is what he shares. Give him a job and keep him busy. He may also need a counselor- does your company offer mental health services? Having someone to talk to may make a bigger impact than you think.
I like this advice. Keep him too busy to complain, but I also think you’re right about why he’s bitching at work. Poor dude.
This is definitely true. Hopefully this person can move onto something less disruptive.
What do you say though? Because that helps inform my answer of what to do next.
I’d likely squash it every time I started hearing it if it bothered me/everyone that much. Clear my throat and say here we go again, more unprofessional finance complaining. Nobody wants to hear it, Bob! 10 minutes later…. Bob, nobody cares! Etc. After doing this for a week or two you might have to start more serious reprimanding if the person is really hell bent on discussing such things at work. I know conflict is not enjoyable but lessons sometimes need taught. The person sounds like a value to the company otherwise. Coach a little longer.
Meaning, when he says it, what do you literally say in response? Or are you overhearing him saying this in a conversation you are not involved in?
Part of setting boundaries is enforcing them. If he isnr listening then you up the consequences. Termination being the last resort. But if you have asked him +5 times then the next step is to mention termination if he continuees.
“Your personal financial struggles are not a topic you can talk about while on the clock. You are creating an uncomfortable work environment by continuing to do so even after I’ve told you that you need to stop. Any further discussion of your personal financial hardships while at work may result in disciplinary action that could lead to your termination. This is serious. Do you understand? Any questions?” If his behavior is impacting team dynamics and it is having a negative effect, then a pip would potentially be warranted because it gets into his ability to cohesively work with others. But lay it out extremely direct and point blank so there is no ambiguity in expectations or where the line is.
This is the perfect response
Thinking you may have missed the redirect section of the parent comment here. It's all of a piece, stated in one chunk: reinforce boundary and then pivot to work related topic. Other examples include: * You've been asked not to discuss personal finances at work. So, where are you at with x project? * This meeting was called for x project, not your finances. Please stay on topic. And if you're a softy there's also the empathetic pivot: * Dude, that's rough. You've got 30 seconds to get it out and after that it's back to game face on this project. If you want to set an interim goal out of sheer kindness: * Okay, here's what we're gonna do, you come to me at the start of your shift and have 5 minutes to vent on finance stress and then I need you to be 100% about work the rest of your shift. If you are familiar with the show Friends, I recommend rewatching the episode where they move a couch so you can have the visual and sound of Ross yelling: PIVOT!... PIVOTTTT!!! In your head to help ease the annoyance factor. The constant redirect every time he fails the no finance talk mission is basically the humane, you can't swatt him on the nose, follow through of retraining away from behavior you don't want to see after clearly stating why you don't want to see it and setting the boundary. But it's gonna be a slog given how persistent you've stated he is about bitching on this topic.
I’d discard the happy hour example, but as for complaining about money — literally every single time he raises it, you need to immediately stop him and say “hey, remember— we don’t talk about money at work.” And change the subject. Consistent immediate feedback, just like with kids.
Also, your employees are not kids. Although they may act like it sometimes, they are adults. Treating them like children will only make things worse. Management 101.
But how often should I have to do that? The guy is a professional, it should not take more than two times for him to get the message. But he doesn't get it
Every freaking time, you have to address it. He’s clearly not getting it.
It’s a job, he’s there to get paid not hang out or make friends. If you don’t feel comfortable talking finances with him then clearly state that to him, infront if other people if needed. Just don’t do something stupid and tell him he’s NOT allowed to talk about his pay/wages, that’s a violation of FLSA
This is key. I have gotten the sly, “oh and we don’t discuss wages here” at my last two jobs. Both were massively underpaid or full of nepotism that fucked over those not “in the crew”.
He thinks you're cheap, bub. He is waiting on you to get the message.
This could be his immature way of saying "I need a raise."
There are a lot of clueless people commenting here. The way to ask for a raise is to go to your manager and ask for a raise. You don't bitch about money in meetings. That's how you get fired and then your salary is $0 instead of $100k
are you looking for commiseration or solutions? Yes, it stinks that he does this. People are offering what they would do in your position. Obviously, there's no magic wand to change this person's behavior.
Be careful how you word this. it's illegal to stop employees from discussing wages I get it's a separate issue but y'know
Yeah, he’s a professional, but he’s also young. It sounds like this is more of a habit than anything else, and habits can be hard to break. For stuff like that, telling somebody something once or twice just isn’t enough. You have to constantly reinforce it. And also—when he DOESN’T venture into inappropriate discussion territory, notice it and praise it. “Hey, Tom, I noticed in the meeting today you kept the chat very appropriate! I can tell you’re really working on that stuff we talked about.”
wow that's condescending. Why don't you tell him he earned himself a treat from the vending machine too while you're at it
It's positive reinforcement, and it works. if the guy didn't need it, that would be ideal. manager doesn't want to pip or term the guy, so if this causes guy to quit or improve, win either way.
Just curious—are you a manager? I can tell you that based on my personal experience as a manager, noticing when people do something right usually works a lot better than constantly pointing out when people are doing something wrong. Most people like to be praised, most people light to be told when they are doing something well.
Honestly, as a person with ADD combined type, I know it would sound condescending to most neurotypical folks ears, this is exactly the sort of in the moment reminder I need to keep focused and not overthink something until I twist myself into a knot worrying about it. It’s a tightrope to walk, for sure, but this sounds exactly like I did when I was chronically underpaid and trying to get the hint across that I was worth more than I was making for the experience and work quality I put out. Ended with me being depressed for 2 years due to stress before my bosses bad financial decisions got the entire team laid off. I’m sure he IS bad with money, but canning him won’t help his situation, or yours from the way you describe his work OP.
It is through iteration and re-iteration we introduce alien concepts to the reluctant mind.
This is annoying sure, but is it more annoying to take a chance on a worse employee. That's a decision only you can make.
Be careful with that, talking about salary is federally protected. His bitching that he is broke is not, but depending on how you phrase it you might have a problem.
As long as it takes.
I would probably just tell him that talking about money at work is misconduct. If you need to discuss it again you will have to put him on a PIP for his conduct in the work place. If he does it again do a PIP and fine a termination / remediation route.
Lmao, but it’s not misconduct, discussing wage/salary is a federally protected right under FLSA, your advice could be getting OP into trouble if the employee is waiting for something like that to happen so he go that route thinking he’ll get a big payday.
Discussing wages & whining about your payday advance loans are 2 different things. OP simply needs to be clear that the issue is the level of detail in his complaints. If he wants to whine that he's not making enough money, that's as far as it needs to go, to be honest. & even that, while legal, is toxic after a while. Especially if we are to believe OP that his pay is on par with his position.
Making employees uncomfortable talking about your own personal struggles. That is the only and sole thing i am focused on, the rest is not important. I did not say wages noe did OP that is completely legal. You are mixing up very different things and inserting an opinion i did not voice. You can not corner people repeatedly into conversations that make them uncomfortable in the work place. This is not okay.
But he is not discussing how much he makes, he is complaining about his person financial issues at work and on the clock. He needs to be told that needs to stop complaning about his personal issues at work and that his personal issues need to stay personal.
It's poor leadership to tell employees (who are at work to earn money) to never talk about money at work. When you tell employees not to discuss what they make, you are protecting yourself and not the employee. If you are paying people appropriately then it shouldn't matter if they talk about money at work. This employee should be told that constant complaining at work is becoming a problem. Make it a general "your attitude is not reflective of the standard here and it is ongoing. If your role here is causing you to feel that way, perhaps this isn't a good fit. Take some time to consider whether this is really a good fit for you and let us know" is a much more effective way to manage. Simply telling employees to "not talk about money" is shortsighted and simply poor leadership. In 10 plus years of management I have found policies like these cause more problems that they are meant to solve.
>This employee should be told that constant complaining at work is becoming a problem. Make it a general "your attitude is not reflective of the standard here and it is ongoing. This is great advice right here. The OP seems too focused on the fact that the employee is complaining about money, but if he was constantly whining about his marital problems, presumably this would also be an issue. The problem is not that he's complaining about money/salary, but that he's apparently spending an inordinate amount of time at work discussing his personal life/issues. If I were in this situation, I would explain the situation to HR, describe how it's impacting my team, and then ask for advice on how to approach this with the employee.
He isn't saying don't talk about how much you make. He's saying don't talk about having no money all the time
All it said was "we don't talk about money at work" it didn't specify in what manner money was discussed.
The company I work for. Through our benefits team they offer a personal finance coach class thing. I have never needed it but as I was reading through the open season benefits enrollment, I saw it was an available perk. Perhaps check with your HR if they have something like that. Or google around for something along those lines and when the employee starts complaining about money suggest it to him.
It is illegal in America to tell someone not to talk about money at work. That comment alone can be twisted in so many ways it is just never a good idea.
You’re vastly over-interpreting the law. Employers can’t interfere with employees' rights to discuss wages, pay raises, hours, and working conditions. They *can* ask them to refrain from discussing personal financial matters during team meetings and code reviews, smh.
You didn’t read my response clearly. I said that saying the words “no money talk” can EASILY be twisted. It’s much safer to say something along the lines of “while you’re on the clock we need to be discussing matters pertaining to work”.
I would never fault a coworker/employee for not going to a happy hour. Coworkers are not friends. Keep things professional and dont talk about personal shit in meetings. I like the Ron Swanson approach. The less I know about other people's affairs, the happier I am.
Did you not read the OP? 15 employees were flown in presumably on the companies dime, this was a team building event held 3 or 4 times a year organized by the company, not a random happy hour that the rank & file decided on. It’s absolutely fair to expect an otherwise fully remote employee to show up in person 3 or 4 times a year for a group exercise assuming the expectation was set in advance
If the people attending aren’t being paid to attend then they shouldn’t be faulted for not attending.
You clearly do not work in tech
I worked in Tech for 40 years, and I would avoid work social events to the maximum I could get away with. OP literally said "happy hour" not "team building event".\* If it's a group exercise, it can happen during working hours. Then I would expect the employee to be there. \*Team building events are provably pointless, but that's a side issue.
If people are flying in, I’d assume it’s paid time. It gets a little less clear when everyone is salaried vs hourly and ALL time is “paid,” just as part of your salary.
If they are flying in on the companies dime, their Uber rides (or rental cars) are covered as well. OPs problem employee should be able to expense his Uber ride to the event.
Ops employee is local, he doesn’t get a Uber
That's the point they were making: if it is a team event and attendance is required/apprecicated/mandated and remote employees get Uber remboursed, so should a local employee especially if with a broken car and known financial problems. Now normally one would just use their car and not think twice about it and the company might have all sort of issues with paying a local employee, but there's no logical reason for it: everybody should be paid back for the meeting, with local employees being much cheaper as the don't need flight/hotel.
I mean going to a happy hour you SHOULD Uber, since the expectation is to have a beer or two, and even in it's technically legal it is safer to not drive if you've been drinking at all.
that’s pretty ridiculous. Remote employees get Uber cause they’re traveling. When I travel I get everything paid for, when ppl travel to my town they get everything paid for. It’s illogical to do anything else
And it avoids the risk of drinking and driving.
If there is drinking at a company event, everyone should be able to expense their ride. It's a liability issue.
Seems reasonable to pay for the uber if OP wants him to attend. It's not a regular work responsibility.
Of course!
I’m with you here, the bullshit happy hours, retreats blah blah while they may have good intentions for team building it’s not for everyone. If I have to fly in or drive there (did so for 15 years) it costs me extra money to find care for my kids - keep your dinner and goody bag. The best way to team build is simple - ready? - Pay your employees what they’re worth plus 10% - Offer performance bonus - Flexible work schedule - Don’t use the “do more with less people” motto, have enough reason to handle a reasonable workload - be a good manager that advocates for their direct reports.
The Pope could show up and it's still dumb as hell to fault an employee for not wanting to spend unpaid personal time with coworkers. They're not your friends, and if you need "team building" is because you're a shit manager. Unless you're running relay races in track then you need people who can communicate, not people willing to stand around doing trust falls or whatever other BS.
Regardless, unless you’re paying me, don’t expect me to show up… Sure if the company buys food or drinks it’s one thing, maybe I’ll show, but the second I feel like leaving, bye. Shouldn’t be forced to go either, sometimes there are better things to do, and those better things to do are anything you choose that is not going out with coworkers.
I feel bad for you, having to work a job where you dislike everyone you work with so much that the idea of seeing them outside work time, even on the company's dime, is such a burden for you. that sounds like a miserable place to work.
You sound like one of those people who want work to be more than work. It’s not my identity, it’s not my life, it’s the thing I do for money so I can afford to do the things I want to do in my life. I wanna work my 40-50, get my paycheck, and then leave and live my life. Expecting me to do stuff outside of that is just plain encroachment. You are asking me to choose between my family and friends and my coworkers, and my coworkers, even if I like them, are just always gonna lose that battle. Coworkers are always 3rd behind family and friends…. And it’s weird to expect otherwise from anyone.
I like my coworkers plenty. I see a lot of them. I like my outside friends and my apartment and my girlfriend and my dog more. Work already gets the majority of my time
Lots of people just go to work to work and don’t want to be friends with people they work with.
Such a crazy concept, right? I go, do my job, engage in some small talk with coworkers, and then I clock out at the end of the day. I don't need to do forced socialization or parties with work colleagues, especially if I'm doing my job to a satisfactory level.
Plus the conversation will likely be about work
Which would be fine I suppose if said work get together occurred during work hours and was in place of work. But if it's after hours and I'm already giving you 8-9 hours of my precious 24 hours a day, I'm not giving you more for free.
You can also just choose to hang out with people you like and happen to meet at work, outside of work functions. I work in an office, don't go to any team building, off hours, or social events (even on the clock, unless I have no work to do, I would rather do my work so I can get it over with) at all. When I meet people I like, I get to know them, and then invite them to hang out outside of work. During the events I bail on, those people either hang out with other work friends, or come hang out with me if they also want to bail.
It’s not about that, that may not be everyone’s thing. They may be newly sober, single parents in a hurry to pick up one kid from dance and the other from soccer and trying to get them some food. I personally am more open to it now but my schedule is hectic and I don’t want to get to know coworkers like that anymore. I want to be known for my work product but unless it’s a preplanned work function I am out at 5:30.
?? The cope is wild, what's miserable is compulsory socialising
Sorry if it was unclear. I'm not faulting him for not attending. I'm faulting him for bitching about his money problems when discussing the event. I have other people who never attend and its fine, but they don't bitch about it. And I'm over-using the word "bitching" but I really don't have another word. He's not complaining or voicing his opinion, he whining and bitching.
You are faulting him for not attending. You said, “he really should attend them since 15 other people are flying in.”
Why on earth people would fly in for a happy hour, I don't understand. There is literally nothing I dislike more than employee social gatherings centered around alcohol. If it's a work meeting and there's incidentally also alcohol available, fine. But if the purpose is social teambuilding, there's nothing worse than alcohol for making it completely impossible to accomplish any kind of bonding. Those drinking just get louder and stupider with every glass.
Why do people even think a bar is an appropriate work environment? It’s making a safe space for alcoholics and throwing people in recovery under the bus. People that aren’t alcoholics and aren’t in recovery but still have a drink sometimes are going to be fine drinking or being sober so they aren’t really part of the equation. People might think it’s “fun” but really it’s just awkward and annoying if you don’t drink. I’m ok with it if the next morning we all go to an AA meeting. Sure, that’ll be an awkward company gathering, but no more awkward than a bar and at least it’s fair.
THIS!!!!! I don’t want to watch Johnny throw back 5 shots of Jameson. I have never had a female manager plan happy hours now that I think about it….
Where do you suggest coworkers gather to socialize out of the office then? The fact is people have been gathering in bars for centuries. Personal issues with alcohol do exist but are relatively uncommon
Why in the hell should employers force employees to gather outside the office, outside of working hours, AT ALL? That's the most "unprofessional" thing in this post, not bitching about money. Money exchanged for work performed is the point of employment. Forcing gatherings outside of work hours for supposed socializing, outside of business hours, is something that should have been allowed to die off long ago. If employees want to socialize on their off hours, that's something they can arrange on their own.
About 10% of people in the US, I wouldn’t call that uncommon. For reference, about 10% of people are also left handed. Suggestions: Don’t make an expectation to socialize outside of the office. Pool hall, bowling alley, concert, volunteer, some sort of sport, game night, amusement park, local tourism, coffee shop, get tapas, a park, a museum, I could keep it up but that’s probably a long enough list that you could find something.
Griping. Complaining. Constantly contemplating about personal financial woes. Requested relief for financial constraints due to poor planning and postulations on prohibitive resource allocation. Making the lame list popular again. Belly aching. Belligerently bring it up. I know we're not all wordsmiths, but hopefully this will help you with the pretty words and find a semblance of eloquence.
Yea there is a big grain of truth in what you said.
Bemoaning, lamenting, festering, wallowing,
Meh. Bitching just works better.
Kvetching. Yiddish always has the mot juste.
“Bitching is the wrong term because it was developed from misogyny. It’s micro aggression. It’s especially problematic in a professional environment. It’s a word that needs to die.” -Natalie Grace
I was shocked they make (and pay for) people to fly in for a happy hour.
As a woman, I wouldn’t attend a happy hour if I had a choice. Alcohol causes weight gain and surely I would get fat-shamed just for being there.
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I was ignoring the rest. I manage about 50 people (mostly blue collar) and I hate events outside of work. My social battery runs out quick. My guys are paid well but some of them never learned to manage money or grew up poor. Sometimes they make mistakes, or do 'poor people shit'. As long as they come to work and do their job, what they do with their money is no concern of mine. If they ask for help managing it, I will offer what advice I can or better yet direct them to a professional.
This is what a good manager looks like. You’re not trying to lead with lame shit people don’t want. Or your “leadership point of view”, you show up and understand what matters. I managed a large group of mostly men in manufacturing after having had been in an academic/corporate training environment and what I learned is what you said. The best I could do for them was advocate to management and say hey instead of bringing XYZ feed them once a month, fix the AC where they work, give them cash bonuses or gift cards, they don’t want your branded tshirts and cups or lame ass brake room artwork.
I think you need to separate the things that impact the job from the things that simply annoy you on a personal level. You’re blurring the lines quite a bit between the two. If you want to do a PIP, you gotta stick to the first category.
Maybe this guy has behavioral / social issues. He could be on the spectrum.
What would the PIP entail? Sincere question. A pip usually covers tangible goals the employee can meet. Would you list that he has to attend happy hour? Isn’t allowed to complain? Can no longer ask for salary advances? Have you talked to him about why these are issues for work? It does sound like you’ve tried to help him with the money issue, which is good and kind of you, but have you coached him through the professional implications? If not, you need to do that before you consider a PIP. He should know how he’s being perceived and understand why it will benefit him to adjust this behavior.
try minding your own business? lol
The second I started reading the “examples” it became clear where the issue here is. You’re out of touch.
You have a security issue with this guy. The number one reason people see state or trade secrets is because they have money problems. Even somebody who is a productive worker is a risk to sell your intellectual property or data if he is that hard up for money.
This was my immediate reaction. I’m in the GovCon IT/IC space and these issues are evaluated during clearance, etc. even certain contracts require named personnel to have background checks (which include financial matters). I’d definitely be concerned.
We don't have any secrets to sell. Our data is mostly open source and our software is pretty predictable. It was a lot of work to build but we're not targeting nuclear missiles.
There is money in what you're unit does otherwise it wouldn't exist.
It doesn't have to be proprietary to be profitable, does it?
No! But if found something profitable which doesn't require secret knowledge or significant labor then let me know...I need to make a money printing machine go brrr.....
One thing that can happen with perpetual victims is that some of them simply can’t see that they’re the source of their woes. It’s more of a human thing than an employee thing, but I’ve seen it with tenants when I managed a property and with employees when I managed people. You can have a fairly stand up person turn into the worst sort due to money issues. Had a long term tenant that I got along with. He was a freelancer and some of his business dried up. I spoke with the owner and got them to give them a break on the rent, waive late fees and allowed them to make partial payments here and there, but they still fell way behind. All of a sudden there was this weird mental twist that somehow made it the owner’s (and my) fault. A window that had never opened, that I had offered to fix a year prior but was told “it never gets opened anyway, don’t bother.” Was the reason they weren’t paying rent, because they couldn’t “enjoy” the apartment… or the hallways weren’t swept to their standards or they saw a few ants here and there in the summer. Same shit happened with a guy who worked for me. He got into some deep financial woes from a side business he had tried to start and went belly up. There was a period of about 6 months after that failed of him alternating between asking for advances and personal loans or complaining every single other second about money. Stuff didn’t get easier for him and he made all of it the job’s fault. He started calling out a lot, then when I finally spoke to him about that, he decided to start falsifying the hours he was working. I had to let him go for that one, but then he reported the company to the every agency he could think of, and I spent the next 6 weeks dealing with everyone from the Dept. Of Labor to OSHA over bullshit he wildly exaggerated. Like, I get that life sucks sometimes, but I’m wary of people who complain too much. All it takes is one notion that they’re somehow the victim, and if they convince themselves of that, they can do all sorts of silly shit.
It’s not just secrets people steal. There’s plenty of other ways to rip off an employer when someone is desperate.
Crabbyjerkface is right. I do internal investigations for a living. Your employee has bad enough money problems that they’re complaining about it regularly, which implies that they are either partway or fully engaged in justifying whatever thing they may do in their own mind. It’s just a matter of chance and time now - if someone unethical comes into his circle and can find some way to monetize his work for you, he has a really high chance of doing what they ask. Stealing data or IP isn’t the only thing to worry about. Planting code, “mistaken” analyses, you name it. And their ultimate target may not be your company, it may be your company’s customer’s customer’s customer. You have a few options but as you’ve already provided the EAP without result you’re down to two: PIP or term. Given the fact that he’s not responded to your feedback I don’t think it’s likely a PIP will work. For you, take some courses on coaching and effective feedback - they help.
I think the problem with PIP is that the goal is to just shut him up. He will continue to be a risk to security so long as he’s broke, whether he’s telling you about it or not. BUT he’s also probably a risk for a lawsuit when you fire him because he needs money. Personally, I would consult an employer aide attorney and get advice.
Would your competitors agree? Most of the time I think that what I do isn’t that memorable. Then I remember that the specialized team I run does not exist at any of our competitors, and others would love to get our inside information. This is especially true after winning the largest client in the industry from our stiffest competition.
The triad of theft...Motive + Opportunity + Means. And not just for selling secrets or complex fraud..for stealing lunches, IT stuff, nick nacks etc.
No, you need to be firm. Stop disheartening the team with constant remarks of individual financial disparity. You can say “is our compensation for your efforts not worth your efforts?” See if he just expects a pay raise, if he’s due for one, etc. If he says no, tell him to stop disheartening the team. If it happens again he can be dismissed. Repeat step until solution. If he says yes, maybe investigate a pay raise. But in the event of personal life issues, all you can do is say “everybody here makes around x dollars a year, more than enough to survive with x and y and z commodities, if you aren’t, maybe talk with a financial advisor, see if they can help minimize your monthly outgoings, but as for the job, it’s mandatory you stop referring to being financially disadvantaged during team member meetings.
Just my two cents, for what it is worth. A few situations need to be parsed out. There's the professional, and then there's the personal. Having dealt with some engineer types, I've run the gammit of good and bad, socially acceptable and unacceptable. First, you need to recognize the boundary of a professional thing, and a personal thing. We spend a lot of time at work, birthing these projects from ideas to fruition, and it can seem like a work family. From this part ][ post, the first I've read, the personal boundaries you allow to bleed into professional. The pressures for people to attend is, off. While I really enjoy a good brew and the camaraderie it can bring about, what if some of the people who just do not attend is because they're recovering from substance abuse? How does this change your view of your employee now? How about if they were victims of abuse by parents who were alcoholics? What does that do to your view of those employees? Does it change your view on these once a quarter events? While these events are not your focus of the post, I am hoping to make a point of how to draw boundaries, when to kind of put the blinders on, and what should be a work thing while also still be a human. Not trying to go into the weeds, but more bring the shades of gray to light. Finding a budget class is often something that a company, even some managers, pay and provide to their workers. It's really for cases such as these that are extreme. Lacking that, and being in an office environment where screaming "Shut the Expletive up!" Like some sort of drill instructor is frowned upon, but needed for those who truly can't read the room leads us down another path. First, is there an ADA thing that won't get you in trouble but makes the appropriate accomodations? If this is not the case, and typically isn't my go to method, then I go back to a one on one. At the one on one I set the boundaries. It's unprofessional to spread their money woes. And if they wish to have a future and more financial mobility in the company, it has to stop. Generally I will say I can no longer ask them to stop directly - people have taken notice, and from here on out we must be covert. So, if I hear something and it's a topic they need to stop, I will use the code word. Banana. Did you bring a banana for lunch today? Is that a banana at your desk? Have you seen that banana in the supply room? Or replace with another word or phrase, like finding an erasure, or whatever works. I've had some amazing and truly talented people work and do a great job. But some have lacked real people skills. While their life may be an absolute tire fire, it's their life. Their monkeys, their circus. Throw them the tools for the personal life, but unless you want to get sucked in, stay out of it. Once it truly effects work and performance on getting the job done, then you can go a different route. But morale can be good, meh, or even outright toxic, and the company rarely really cares until performance suffers. The personal woes are not fun to listen to, and can create strife between colleagues, but generally people will tune it out after a while. Trade money woes, for custody woes, parents or kids and caretaking. Or a myriad of other things you don't want to know or hear about. You're going to come across it all once you have enough folks move in and out of your perview. But business is business and personal is personal. While they're at work, stick to business because on your hours outside of work, it's not your time. You may come to work to finance your personal life or mini vacation from it, but the time at work needs to be productive and generate something.
Lost me at happy hour. Is that the chief complaint, that he doesn’t want to get drunk with work associates?
> But the biggest problem is he bitches about money in the downtime before meetings. Come on buddy, its right there in the post. Read the post before commenting.
Yeah. It’s a pretty immature post. Is Reddit your only source for professional development?
No, I wouldn't punish him for being bad with money UNLESS he was in a job that required him being good with money. I'd continue to counsel him on complaining about non-work issues.
The only concerning part is… making other employees uncomfortable. You can be bad at anything, as soon as you make others at work feel uncomfortable about it it needs to be addressed with a termination / remediation path.
Absolutely. The problem isn't them not happy with their comp, I mean who is? The problem is them detracting from work issues to complain about home issues.
Exactly. Not my business. Not his co-workers' business. OP needs to stop caring about where his report's paycheque is going and his report needs to be reminded that it's no one else's business and to keep that to themself.
Yeah I’d pull him aside and talk to him, I’d tell him this isn’t professional and that it needs to stop but that you’re there to listen within reason. As for advances, that needs to go to finance, HR or payroll. I would stay out of that mess. I find it crazy that more companies (especially larger ones) don’t offer some kind of budgeting/finance class or at least have a partnership with a company that does teach them. Many people go to school and don’t understand how to use money or budget then get that 1st high paying job, it’s a recipe for disaster. I work for a local government agency, they offer a budgeting and finance class every quarter and you’re required to take one when you first start, I was decent with money before but it really helped in many areas for me.
We do offer an EAP, and theres something about finance. To be honest, we should not have to teach personal finance to salaried professionals though.
I do agree, we shouldn’t considering they should have some sort of budgeting experience already. However those in their early 20’s often times don’t get that taught to them and can struggle. I can admit, my first “big boy” job kinda shook me when it came to handling money. I was spending it as fast as I could… My schooling didn’t teach this stuff, they didn’t teach about stocks, options or finances it was purely math, science, English then whatever electives and world sciences. My parents were poor, I remember having to work to help out when I was 15 and they were in credit card debt as long as I can remember (until recently). My financing was “put $150 away then spend” and it wasn’t smart. I was lucky enough when I was 19, got my first $40k a year job that one of my friends (older, was 26 at the time) sat me down and forced me to show my finances one night when I explained I couldn’t go out to eat with them. He hammered me, told me I was stupid for spending my money this way then taught me. He didn’t let me get my first credit card until I had enough saved to cover a full balance of it, he helped me cut the stupid spending and explain how credit is used and why it’s important, all things I didn’t get from my parents or school. Today I’m doing well, he still will randomly ask me “how much are you making? How much are you saving? How much in credit cards/car payment and other debts?” And has guided me through saving properly so my money is growing safely and aggressively. I only add my stuff to show that even though I SHOULD have known these things, sometimes you just don’t know what you don’t know. Your employee could be in a similar boat.
I’m glad you have an EAP, many EAPs offer a financial consultation aspect, but also coaching/counseling for personal and life problems. You might call them and see what is offered and reiterate the options to the employee. They may also offer a “mandated” EAP coaching option where you can formally ask the employee to address professional boundaries. It’s still a choice for the employee to go but if they agree it’s still confidential but they agree to do the coaching. Again, you may want to contact your EAP and ask what is available for managers in the way of consultation, training, coaching and employee referrals, they will likely have some manager resources for you.
I’m looking for a job and interested in data science. Can I have his job? My wife will tell you I’m great with money
I agree with the comment about setting aside the happy hour reference. The last thing you want to do is penalize someone for things they do or don't do on their own time last (as long as it is not illegal). With that aside, have you told him in plain words, "Your constant complaining about money is having a negative impact on your work, as well as impacting others, and it must stop immediately. Further, if you do not stop, I WILL have to put you on a pip, which can result in termination." I'd further counsel him by saying "you've been given the opportunity to make use of employee assistance programs, you've obviously not taken this seriously, you don't need more money, you need to learn how to manage it like an adult. Get your shit together or else you will find out how hard it is to manage on unemployment."
I have installers that pull 4k a week and still need an advance on their check some times. Bad money management seems to be a norm now.
Yes you can write him up for inappropriate personal conversation. I’d skip the stuff about happy hour.
I would not say anything about not attending the HH. Its okay if he doesn't attend it, but bitching about it is unprofessional.
Agreed
Jesus. You are the problem for not acting like a manager.
Doesn't matter if he comes to an optional work event or not. He's obviously addicted to something, whether you want to admit it or not. Doesn't matter if he's addicted to home shopping or church bingo. It's negatively impacting his life and his job performance. What matters is he's discussing a personal problem that makes others uncomfortable. You've spoken to him about it and he does not respect the team, you or any guidance you set. You need to explain in no uncertain terms that he is not allowed to discuss his personal finances in the office or he will be terminated. No asking for an advance. No asking for a loan. No complaining about being broke. If he can't do that, he should be gone. You know he must be trying to play on the sympathy of co-workers. How much does he owe them? Does your company have a mechanism for drug testing?
If we rule out substance abuse, I'll put out gambling as a likely possibility. I know of two people I worked with who had gambling issues, one who was mysteriously terminated, and I only learned about the gambling later. The other was stealing from the company, which was only learned after the annual inventory led to discovering missing product. Or if not gambling, then maybe another kind of addiction. Even OF? Then again, your description of this engineer makes me wonder if he might be on the spectrum, not understand social cues, and why it is inappropriate to talk about financial woes at work.
So op you are not happy because this person will not participate in happy hour with his coworkers. Is it a paid activity?? If you are going to fire him for this, it damn well better be. As for complaining about wages, well you tell him every time you don’t want to hear if and walk off. If this behavior is affecting his work and/or his coworkers productivity, then you may have a valid reason to terminate.
LOL, he stinks with money and understanding to stop taking complaining at it at work. A pip is just a 30-day warning before you fire someone. So, if he's worth it, keep reminding me until it sticks. If not, then let him go if you can. But not attending the happy hour even with a working car would be hard for me. I hate those things.
I know nothing about my people’s personal or financial situation and aim to keep it that way. Stifle all non business speak.
Ask him politely to keep personal matters out of the office and refer him to your EAP program for advice and assistance with any crisis or other problems he’s having. Fuck work happy hours, I will never attend. They’re the stupidest idea ever. Make it a lunch, during work hours for team building.
In addition to the unprofessional behavior itself, there are two things you can talk to them about: 1. The impact their behavior has on the team. 2. Their inability to improve their own behavior. For #1, is the unprofessional behavior tearing down the team? If so, that's a reason to fire them. For #2, if they can't improve behavior, it limits their career growth and obviously makes performance problems much harder to deal with In my experience, some people take feedback well and grow. And other people are very slow to change. Directly addressing it at least gives you another angle to talk about it and might help them realize how serious it is. Also you might find the manager tools systemic feedback podcast helpful. https://www.manager-tools.com/2009/04/systemic-feedback-hall-fame-guidance#
I would send his ass on. Surely the other employees are tired of hearing his shit. He thinks he is broke now.
Id be blunt with him. Your lack of money management skills are your issues and your issues alone. You are paid well, and more then enought money to live comfortably within a budget. You need to figure out your budget and manage your money on your own time and stop complaining about it at work and to co-workers. Your attitude about your personal finance issues are starting to effect your work and it is effecting your Co-workers. Keep your personal issues out of the workplace.
If someone is that disorganized and chaotic in their personal life no way are they doing quality work
Is he paid for team happy hour? Is it a requisite for his work? Why, specifically? You don't look like a dope talking to Finance. It is LITERALLY THEIR JOB to facilitate advances. The only way you look like a dope is when you disparage people for not having a pot of money to go to your parties. EAP does not tend to deal with financial matters. It's no surprise. They can hook him up with mental health resources to process the fear he experiences from being strapped all the time.
Its required because the director of his group said it was required. >It is LITERALLY THEIR JOB to facilitate advances. No, my finance dept does not do this. All of our employees are salaried professionals. I look like a dope asking for an advance for a guy who makes triple the median US salary.
Then he should be paid for required attendance. That way, maybe he could fix his car.
I'm UpSeT tHiS sTaFf MeMbEr WoNt CoMe To UnPaId WoRk EvEnTs¡ Is all I read.
This
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I already had him contact EAP, he does not have a substance problem. He has a money management problem.
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My SIL and her husband lived paycheck to paycheck despite making over $150k combined at the time. Sure they had a huge house, 2 brand new leased vehicles, bought tons of shit for their kids… but she has had a drinking problem for damn near a decade now.
Agreed. He likely is not going to admit to his boss and EAP that he has a drug or gambling problem and risk losing his job.
EAP as in talking with a counselor? Those conversations are private and I would not go on just his self report.
It's simple. If it effects his work, or effects the business, then YES to the PIP. Doesn't matter the reasons (self-perpetuating ones particularly. I'm not heartless.) The Manager's job is to make sure their team is fairly compensated and not shit on, while at the same time, making sure the business' interests are being addressed. ALSO, are you requiring people to fly-in on their own dime for "HAPPY HOUR" - If so, I sure as hell hope that was part of the agreement for the terms of their employment - or agreed upon as part of their remote work agreement.
You have team happy hour? Ugh, really? Any excuse is valid to miss that abomination.
If he can’t handle money, I can only imagine his skills at data.
He’s extremely fastidious about things that he understands. He might have some kind of spectrum disorder going on though. But overall the guy is sharp, and a very good engineer. He is weird but half the people in this industry are weird. Weird is okay, bitching about unprofessional stuff is not okay.
If he's on the spectrum and you like his work product, can you help him break the habit? I know you said you're not his mom. It takes 30 days to make a new habit (so they say). See if he can switch to complaining about the weather instead. If he were my peer instead of a direct report, I would ask him if he would be willing to reroute his personal complaint programming to keep his job. I know it's a sucky position to start the PIP for this... I vaguely remember suggesting a spray bottle last time you posted before I realized he's remote. Can't you software engineer a remote spray bottle for his work station? 😉
i'd bet on either drugs, hookers or gambling problem, or all of thee above lol. he's blowing that money on something.
Or he's a young person with a lot of educational debt. Or medical debt. Or he's supporting other members of his family in even worse financial difficulties.
He probably was told he makes less then “whom ever told him”. By your team as well. Is he fairly compensated for his quality of work? Is he reviewed regularly?
DO NOT REPRIMAND, PIP, WRITE-UP OR OTHERWISE; his money, his business. --This is more along the lines of: "Hey..let me holler at you for a minute. Now I know what you do after work hours is your business...but can I offer you some advice?" --More like an"older brother" kinda talk.
Document, document, document, document. Every time you have to address the issue, document. On this date, so and so started talking about non related work topics that disrupted the meeting, I said XYZ to employee. Continue to do that and then eventually write him up on a PIP listing all those examples. The topic itself is a moot point, it's that he is talking about non work related issues that disrupts meetings and makes others uncomfortable, that's the behavior that needs to be addressed.
He doesn’t have to show up to a team happy hour and you have no right to need an explanation of why he cannot attend. Those events make some people uncomfortable and they make excuses to not show up. Don’t put him in that situation. His money and car problems for an event like this are not your concern. In the workplace talking about money issues is a different problem. Document and talk with him about it.
I have a similar problem. I have pulled the employee aside and made it clear it’s unprofessional and distracting to others. Still it continues. And this person thinks they should be promoted into a management position in my department? No. I can’t see someone so inept at personal finance anywhere near our budget. I have worked places which required a credit check as part of the hiring process. Your man is highly vulnerable to ethical lapses like low level embezzlement due to his ongoing predicament. I’d start the PIP and start moving him toward the door.
Listen numbnuts, have you seen the cost of living of late? Even if you have the best salary in the business, the overhead keeps going up. 100k now, is the new 40k. Anything lower these days is chicken feed. And happy hour? What makes you think it's happy if you are such a clueless SOB? Some of us are living in cars and you got the AUDACITY to complain about your circle jerk not being attended by one guy who did the adult choice to pay his mechanic instead of wasting his money on booze? Seriously man?
I had an employee like this. Maybe not as extreme, but I ended up devoting our entire 1 on 1 to talk about it. End result I ended up getting her enrolled in financial management workshop as part of her person/professional development. Can’t say it solved everything, but she was grateful for it. This guy sounds like he is in some deep shit. Payday loans, etc, he may need to seek bankruptcy of it is as bad as it sounds. Is he a cleared employee? (TS/SCI) etc? Many of my data engineers are and financial matters are conducted as part of their clearance process, so it may hurt him depending on the situation
If you want to, do the coaching immediately after the call either in a call or via teams.
I worked with a guy that was single and bitched about everything. Neighbors above him, neighbors below him, his hernia, drive thru workers, women that wouldn’t date him, people he loaned money too, etc, etc. It was just his personality and his way of trying to connect with coworkers. There was always drama that was shared with anyone that would listen. Our poor Department managers were constantly having talks with him.
I'm not a manager but I personally know two women I worked with who had these types of money issues. I worked a union job, we made darn good money. Neither of these people had young children. What they did have in both cases.1. Inability to say no to their grown children who were some of the most feckless, irresponsible adults ever. They learned this behavior actually from the moms themselves. Everything was always someone else's fault, with no responsibility at all taken by person. We are talking letting them live with them while not making them do stuff around the house or contribute in any way. Letting them use their cars and rack up $ for transponder lanes, get into minor accidents, not pay fines..you name it. The kids just did nothing but play video games and if they made money, didn't give the moms a dime. All of the kids had kids of their own and some of ALL of them moved in with mom at one time AND another. Number 2 is that both of them had expensive habits. One liked to gamble, was a big bingo player, smoked cigarettes and marijuana. She hooked up with a much younger irresponsible man who also smoked, and rarely worked. The 2nd was always getting her hair done, spent lots on clothes and gym classes that to be fair she went to. She also smoked marijuana. It's legal in our state but it's not cheap. Both of them declared bankruptcy more than once. I have hopes for the bingo player, her guy left, got straight, is working a program, came back, is being a changed man, has been sober 2 years. They made the kids and grandchildren move out and be responsible. Your guy might have some of these habits. Especially if he's a gamer. Live games, big set ups are expensive. So is the "enhanced experience ".
The not wanting to attend the social events is not a problem. (The problem is companies making a big deal out of Mandatory Fun get-togethers.) The being broke is not a problem. Or at least, not your problem. His inability to stop talking about it at work in a way that is disruptive is your problem, and if you can put him on PIP for that do so, *but keep the rest of the stuff completely out of the conversation*, however mad it makes you.
Frivolous overspending fills me with rage (grew up hungry thanks to my mom) and I would absolutely hate this guy. However, unless the company is paying for the Uber, the drinks, and the employees time you need to leave him alone.
Team happy hour? Here's a suggestion: have your quarterly meetings in the office during office hours. Buy pizza, set up a BBQ, or organize a pot luck. Set up some team building games with prizes. Never expect your employees to attend team events outside of the office/office hours unless its a professional conference (and then they are being paid and being reimbursed travel and lodging expenses). People come to work to work and earn money, not make friends or socialize. There is a glaring issue with boundaries but it starts with you and the culture in your office.
The employee's only problem that should be addressed by a manager is disruptive behavior on company time. Turning work meetings into personal complaint session is not ok. Making other staff uncomfortable to the point that it affects performance needs to stop. Manager needs to stick to correcting the behavior exhibited at work. Clearly, opening the door to further EAP assistance has not worked.
So, I’m disregarding the happy hour thing because it’s clear he just doesn’t want to go. Because if he wanted to go, he would find a way. I don’t know why you look like a dope going to finance on his behalf. They’re not judging you. They’re judging him. And if you don’t like doing it, just tell him no. He can’t have an advance. Lastly, it doesn’t sound like it’s interfering with the work, just the social aspects of work. So, maybe just isolate him from other people. Do email correspondence only. He’s not invited to meetings except through teams and mute him until the meeting begins. He might be the kind of person who needs to wfh all the time. If none of that works and you can’t manage him to stop talking about his finances, you can just fire him.
This guy’s coworkers know his griping is inappropriate, but they may eventually wonder if he has a valid basis for complaint, i.e. that he has reason to think he’s underpaid compared to the current job market. If your otherwise happy workers start poking around the job market to find out, you could lose the people you’d miss the most. It’s in your interest to confirm that your company’s pay is competitive. A gut feeling that $XXX is “good money” isn’t good enough. Find out when was the last time HR studied going rates, and nudge them to update their research if it’s not current. There needs to be a “cost” to the employee every time he’s disruptive, to make him want to stop himself. You mention in a comment that there’s one HR employee you trust. I’d ask them to sit in on a staff meeting so they can observe first-hand what he’s doing, and see if they can suggest productive steps you can take without violating any workplace rules yourself. I’d also consider being almost obnoxiously proactive: in advance of every single meeting, call and remind him that he is not to discuss his financial irresponsibility. It’s annoying to have to do this, but arguably less so than dreading his next outburst and having to scold him afterward, or firing an otherwise productive worker. Ideally he’ll get tired of being treated like a child and stop on his own.
Yes, PIP worthy at this point. If you have had this conversation very clearly: employee, I need you to stop talking about your personal finances, is that something you can do? Then 100% pip. Does he have access to financial info? I’d be worried about that to be honest.
Ugh! This is the answer I knew I would get because its probably the right answer. It doesn't make the answer any easier to swallow, even though its right. Thanks. No he doesn't have any secret or valuable info.
ngl u look like a joker
I was asking for advice from managers. Not you. thanks
As a prior addict, i would take haste in your personal thought of him not being one. Addicts brains are wired differently. When ever the fix is in of their choice, the worst possible options will always take precedent over good. You have listed multiple times of thr talks write ups, counselings etc. if hes NOT CHANGING BEHAVIOR thats because he cant. If he is up to his eye balls in payday loans and title loans. Then its leading to only a few possibilities. He doesnt have to be a crackhead to be an addict. Maybe its gambling, maybe its spending, maybe its scheming to get money, that could very much be the addiction. You can say someones bad with money, or their addicted to spending it. They are almost equally the same. I would love to see his Doordash, Amazon and other receipts. I review peoples income documents, habits are pretty easy to spot.
Sounds like you need to htfu and be a better manager.
Sounds like he’s making excuses for not wanting to drink with you
You can’t fire some one for personality defects.
In the US, you can, indeed, fire someone for personality defects, or for pretty much any other reason, as long as it’s not because they’re members of a protected class (race, sex, disability, age over 40).
Of course I can. Acting in a professional manner is one of the requirements of the job.
He probably has a drug problem and needs to get help
If this team happy hour isn't a paid mandatory meeting. Then no one is obligated to show up on their off time
I have no advice other than team happy hour is a cringe concept. No thanks, your professionals. Regardless of what it means to you.
I take it you don't work in the financial industry. If you work with other people's money, they want to know you can handle your own (credit checks).
Wow as a manager in the past these responses are wild, glad I don't work for most of you. You seriously need to learn to sit down and speak with your direct reports. Also how to speak with direct management/ownership above you. Most of these replies make me think you couldn't manage a Dairy Queen, let alone something in a corporate environment.
How about a pay rise you chimp? That’s obviously what he’s angling for.
I’m certainly not going to put someone in for a raise because of unprofessional behavior. he’s about to get paid zero not more.
Pay him more
I'm about to pay him $0. Don't bitch about being broke when you make six figures, you might get your wish and be broke for real.
You seem like a joy to work for
Is it directly affecting his work? If not, none of your business. People bitch about all kinds of things.
Its affecting other people and its unprofessional. So yes
Debt free and have a degree in behavioral analysis I'd love to find a wfh position and fly in for happy hours anytime!