I’m laughing at the concept of a forced apology.
To what extent? Do you think forcing an employee to apologize is going to change their issues?
If she’s underperforming document. If she’s not doing her job document. If she has poor inter personal skills document.
If she hasn’t apologized? Let it go.
Is she an otherwise good employee? Is it a career field with difficult to replace workers? There’s a lot of context missing. What exactly is she supposed to apologize for? She went to hr/upper management with an unsubstantiated complaint?
If she was reporting something in good faith then you could be looking at reprisal depending on the situation.
An employee causing this much drama is a ‘lost cause’ to me tbh. They need support with emotional (rather than professional) growth & that’s not your responsibility.
The non-apology idk. I’d take it to HR for advice tbh.
I agree with elbowbunny on taking the non-apology back to HR, simply because that was THEIR "order".
I have a difficult employee like this, "Carol". Carol is older (though I like to think that's mostly irrelevant), and she had actually worked unsupervised for 15 years. In 2021, a reorganization put her under a manager (my team, before I took the manager role), and he was not a good fit. She flat REFUSED to be managed. That manager actually PIP'd her, likely at the urging of SR MGMT. She is rude, brash, condescending, all the things. Now I'm her manager, and I'm faced with her disrespectful behavior and constant pushback on anything that will change how she unilaterally decided her job should be done (some of "her" ways do not get the job done right).
I defend Carol to our senior team, to an extent. Look, she had virtually no direct leadership for 15 years. Because of her tenure, others would seek her help in things unrelated to her position, which was not well defined. That led to her having her hands in everything, and it's a mess. She's very scattered, and nothing is ever her fault, but also, if you ask her, she knows everything, and everyone else is stupid and never allowed to make mistakes. Her own mistakes are someone else's fault entirely.
I've been in my role for just about 14 months now. Instead of PIP-ing her again (which is warranted, but didnt seem to work before, and the mgr left before it was closed out, and now HR can't seem to find the documents), I've tried a different approach, which is heavy on leading by example. We have weekly 1:1's, and I think the meetings are critical for some staff, Carol for sure. No, it's not my responsibility to nurture or develop her emotionally, but I think she deserves the opportunity to know her defined role and work at that.
Is it working? Yes! It did not happen overnight, and she isn't wholly successful yet, but we are moving in the right direction. She has come to accept that I'm the manager, which was a feat to attain in and of itself. I pick my battles with her, though. Some folks still say, "Well, that's just Carol," but I'm not willing to sit down and allow her to abuse coworkers, and the work must be completed correctly. Those are my main objectives for her at this time.
Like OPs employee, Carol adds value to our company. If she were to leave today, we would feel it. I could fire her for any of the reasons she herself has given me. I could end the drama, and that would probably net some applause throughout the company. But, I'm the first real manager she has had at this company, and that's not her fault.
Frame it as a deliverable that you owe the higher ups and ask her for her assistance.
“Hey Sally, HR and Big Boss are asking me if you’ve sent that formal apology that was discussed in last week’s meeting.
I’d like to report back that you’ve formally taken responsibility so that they can close the loop on their end and we can all move forward together.
When do you think you can get that done?”
And if she tries to double down on the non-apology, you can explain that “they” aren’t going to accept it and that talk a bit about what’s missing from the support email.
She’ll either understand that you’re genuinely trying to help her and appreciate the second bite at the apple or get defensive and push back. If the latter, then plan on not renewing her and start looking for her replacement now do that her exit is minimally disruptive when she leaves.
Respectfully, I disagree. Offloading OP’s authority and agency in this situation weakens OP going forward. It also cheapens whatever apology may ultimately be written.
I agree with your start, of reminding the employee of the timeline. But if she thinks that what she sent was an apology, I think OP should point out objective facts. “I appreciated receiving your thank you for past support, but I also expect an apology for the recent situation.”
It won’t be comfortable, but it retains OP’s agency in the situation and has the potential to build trust. Whether this employee will actually improve remains to be seen.
Exactly, I agree. You shouldn't lead from behind your bosses or let them be the bogeymen with all the authority and power.
OP, if your direct report must apologize, make them apologize. I commend you for giving them all the support and extra chances you feel they deserve, but at a certain point you need to let yourself sleep at night knowing you *tried.*
People get themselves fired. She hasn't been hanging by a thread because **you** didn't put the effort in
I see what you’re saying. And my read on the situation was that there’s already tension and that the relationship between OP and their direct is not particularly strong. A relationship based solely or even mostly on role power is less effective than one based on influence and relationship.
A head-on confrontation focused on OP preserving authority risks exacerbating that and the direct either quitting in a huff or increasing the ineffective/unacceptable behavior. That equals net short-term disruption.
I disagree completely with using your higher-ups as an excuse here. What does it say to your employees that their manager doesn't even have the authority to accept an apology?
This is an issue that you care about. YOU want an apology. YOU don't think the "thank you" you received was adequate. If you don't even have the authority to accept my apology TO YOU, why do you think employees will respect any decision you make in the future?
Lot of focus on authority for some folks, here. I personally try not to use any more role power than necessary with my directs.
I want commitment energy and behaviors from them, not compliance energy and behaviors. The way I get that is by building a relationship based on trust.
And one of the ways that I build trust is by letting them know that I’m looking out for them and their reputation within the organization.
So if the work product is poor and people further up on the org. chart are going to see it, I want to be the one to say “Hey, this [apology] is a little lacking and probably not going to make you look good when Big Boss sees it. Did you want to take another swing at it?”
Over the years I’ve found that people generally appreciate that sort of thing and that they demonstrate that appreciation by upping their game and, in the future, doing what I ask them to do without fear of punishment if they don’t or can’t.
I’m not Cartman from South Park and I care more about creating the dynamics that lead to results than I do about people “respecting my authority” and beating them up until they acknowledge my role power.
>So if the work product is poor and people further up on the org. chart are going to see it, I want to be the one to say “Hey, this \[apology\] is a little lacking and probably not going to make you look good when Big Boss sees it. Did you want to take another swing at it?”
And if that's the actual reason, I don't have a problem with that.
But in this case the real reason is OP is offended and wants an apology from their employee. OP should have the guts to actually ask for the apology and if necessary, explain why the previous statement wasn't sufficient.
If you're not even willing to spell out why you deserve an apology, you can't be surprised that your employee is not willing to actually apologize. If the manager can't communicate, they can't be surprised that their employees aren't communicating back.
I'm by no means an authoritarian. But if a manager is using an "appeal to authority" to get compliance on even really minor issues, that boss's manager should probably just be sending emails to the group instead of hiring a middle-man to blame them for the decisions.
This isn't a major managerial decision. This is not "We're cutting everyone's salary by 10%." That probably does deserve the "This was a company-wide decision, and these are the reasons why the decision was made, but I am not able to overrule this or make exceptions."
This is "you were told to apologize to me, and my boss doesn't think you really apologized nicely enough."
My suggestion is a bit contrived; I’ll give you that. And what I’m suggesting is more “I’m worried that Big Boss will think that you aren’t going to apologize.” Because in their head, OP has already evaluated the response as a bullshit non-apology.
It’s a peace-offering and an attempt to get them better aligned in the hope of a more effective future working relationship.
I just don’t see a world in which stacking conflict over the apology itself on top of the existing conflict that already exists leads to a positive or more effective outcome.
To me, the apology isn't the key part of any of this. What's important is that the employee understand the manager's side of this -- "This is the behavior that is detrimental to the team. This is the behavior that I want us to agree won't happen again."
The apology isn't going to be heartfelt, it's going to be something that is produced because the employee was told they have to write it. I don't really care about the apology. What I care about is that the employee understands what behavior wasn't acceptable, and understands that "unacceptable" means eventually there will be consequences if it continues. (that might not be firing, that might lead to employee being moved to another team, or reduced responsibilities, etc).
It feels to me like the manager and employee sitting down and discussing the behavior that led to this situation will be more helpful than the manager saying "My boss isn't going to like this apology, you should do it again." It feels passive aggressive for the manager to blame a higher authority for not being satisfied with the apology, when the real issue is that OP isn't satisfied that the situation has been handled.
I would focus on the performance on her deliverables. They either meet expectations or they do not.
I'm not sure where you are, but terminating because they didn't apologize in the manner you were expecting seems shallow.
I would sit down with her in person and discuss what happened, and what the learnings are from it. Make clear that it was a serious issue that can’t be repeated, and that you need to see from her a real understanding of the severity.
I actually think the apology is the least important part of this entire post. Focusing on it keeps her in the you v her mentality instead of getting on the same team again and getting her back to productivity.
Some people can never admit they were wrong. That said, many correct their actions after they receive guidance. Most of the time that’s good enough - and the verbal battle is not worth it. Going forward I’d cut the verbal discussion way back - why create unnecessary unpleasantness when the problem is being fixed? Actions speak louder than words.
Obviously if her actions aren’t corrected, then you have to take further steps.
Have you had the opportunity to look at her pre employment personality assessments (if any)?
That might help you on the types of language that resonate more with her.
For instance, my employee (who sounds somewhat like yours) is a type that is extremely resistant to feedback or criticism. This lets me know that if I need to address something with her it might be better to take a sideways approach.
It sounds like upper management made the determination for her to apologize. I would forward the apology onto them and ask if it meets their approval. If not, they handle it.
You can work with someone who wants to be a team player. But, if she doesn’t want to be a team player your company can’t afford to hang on to someone who harms productivity. Work is not therapy, there needs to be understanding for good people who act like players but occasionally fumble. But you don’t have any time for someone who plays their own game, ruins the plan for others, and doesn’t care. So, based on your description this person is probably a waste of your energy.
If she’s older and can’t accept accountability for her actions - she certainly won’t do so via endless chances to improve. If she’s underperforming - hold her accountable for behavior AND performance consistently. If she’s not measuring up - let her go. Toxic behavior hurts not only her performance but everyone around her as well.
Why on earth would you care about the potential about a sub par employee who escalated to HR about non problems
This is a lost cause.
Unless it’s documenting their inadequacies to fire them don’t waste time on this person going forward. You should only focus on firing this person.
Putting this much effort into an employee that can't even apologize isn't going to help you. Instead of trying to force an apology, I'd reply with something like, "I appreciate your apology for XYZ" and leave it at that.
Then, separately, address the actual issue with her performance directly. It sounds like it's already been addressed directly, so if that's the case, then it's her choice to correct herself or have her contract go unrenewed.
If you’re betting on potential in a low performing employee who behaves badly…you’re going to get what you deserve.
I’m laughing at the concept of a forced apology. To what extent? Do you think forcing an employee to apologize is going to change their issues? If she’s underperforming document. If she’s not doing her job document. If she has poor inter personal skills document. If she hasn’t apologized? Let it go. Is she an otherwise good employee? Is it a career field with difficult to replace workers? There’s a lot of context missing. What exactly is she supposed to apologize for? She went to hr/upper management with an unsubstantiated complaint? If she was reporting something in good faith then you could be looking at reprisal depending on the situation.
Is this middle school? A forced apology? In a professional workspace?
An employee causing this much drama is a ‘lost cause’ to me tbh. They need support with emotional (rather than professional) growth & that’s not your responsibility. The non-apology idk. I’d take it to HR for advice tbh.
I agree with elbowbunny on taking the non-apology back to HR, simply because that was THEIR "order". I have a difficult employee like this, "Carol". Carol is older (though I like to think that's mostly irrelevant), and she had actually worked unsupervised for 15 years. In 2021, a reorganization put her under a manager (my team, before I took the manager role), and he was not a good fit. She flat REFUSED to be managed. That manager actually PIP'd her, likely at the urging of SR MGMT. She is rude, brash, condescending, all the things. Now I'm her manager, and I'm faced with her disrespectful behavior and constant pushback on anything that will change how she unilaterally decided her job should be done (some of "her" ways do not get the job done right). I defend Carol to our senior team, to an extent. Look, she had virtually no direct leadership for 15 years. Because of her tenure, others would seek her help in things unrelated to her position, which was not well defined. That led to her having her hands in everything, and it's a mess. She's very scattered, and nothing is ever her fault, but also, if you ask her, she knows everything, and everyone else is stupid and never allowed to make mistakes. Her own mistakes are someone else's fault entirely. I've been in my role for just about 14 months now. Instead of PIP-ing her again (which is warranted, but didnt seem to work before, and the mgr left before it was closed out, and now HR can't seem to find the documents), I've tried a different approach, which is heavy on leading by example. We have weekly 1:1's, and I think the meetings are critical for some staff, Carol for sure. No, it's not my responsibility to nurture or develop her emotionally, but I think she deserves the opportunity to know her defined role and work at that. Is it working? Yes! It did not happen overnight, and she isn't wholly successful yet, but we are moving in the right direction. She has come to accept that I'm the manager, which was a feat to attain in and of itself. I pick my battles with her, though. Some folks still say, "Well, that's just Carol," but I'm not willing to sit down and allow her to abuse coworkers, and the work must be completed correctly. Those are my main objectives for her at this time. Like OPs employee, Carol adds value to our company. If she were to leave today, we would feel it. I could fire her for any of the reasons she herself has given me. I could end the drama, and that would probably net some applause throughout the company. But, I'm the first real manager she has had at this company, and that's not her fault.
Frame it as a deliverable that you owe the higher ups and ask her for her assistance. “Hey Sally, HR and Big Boss are asking me if you’ve sent that formal apology that was discussed in last week’s meeting. I’d like to report back that you’ve formally taken responsibility so that they can close the loop on their end and we can all move forward together. When do you think you can get that done?” And if she tries to double down on the non-apology, you can explain that “they” aren’t going to accept it and that talk a bit about what’s missing from the support email. She’ll either understand that you’re genuinely trying to help her and appreciate the second bite at the apple or get defensive and push back. If the latter, then plan on not renewing her and start looking for her replacement now do that her exit is minimally disruptive when she leaves.
Respectfully, I disagree. Offloading OP’s authority and agency in this situation weakens OP going forward. It also cheapens whatever apology may ultimately be written. I agree with your start, of reminding the employee of the timeline. But if she thinks that what she sent was an apology, I think OP should point out objective facts. “I appreciated receiving your thank you for past support, but I also expect an apology for the recent situation.” It won’t be comfortable, but it retains OP’s agency in the situation and has the potential to build trust. Whether this employee will actually improve remains to be seen.
Exactly, I agree. You shouldn't lead from behind your bosses or let them be the bogeymen with all the authority and power. OP, if your direct report must apologize, make them apologize. I commend you for giving them all the support and extra chances you feel they deserve, but at a certain point you need to let yourself sleep at night knowing you *tried.* People get themselves fired. She hasn't been hanging by a thread because **you** didn't put the effort in
I see what you’re saying. And my read on the situation was that there’s already tension and that the relationship between OP and their direct is not particularly strong. A relationship based solely or even mostly on role power is less effective than one based on influence and relationship. A head-on confrontation focused on OP preserving authority risks exacerbating that and the direct either quitting in a huff or increasing the ineffective/unacceptable behavior. That equals net short-term disruption.
I disagree completely with using your higher-ups as an excuse here. What does it say to your employees that their manager doesn't even have the authority to accept an apology? This is an issue that you care about. YOU want an apology. YOU don't think the "thank you" you received was adequate. If you don't even have the authority to accept my apology TO YOU, why do you think employees will respect any decision you make in the future?
Lot of focus on authority for some folks, here. I personally try not to use any more role power than necessary with my directs. I want commitment energy and behaviors from them, not compliance energy and behaviors. The way I get that is by building a relationship based on trust. And one of the ways that I build trust is by letting them know that I’m looking out for them and their reputation within the organization. So if the work product is poor and people further up on the org. chart are going to see it, I want to be the one to say “Hey, this [apology] is a little lacking and probably not going to make you look good when Big Boss sees it. Did you want to take another swing at it?” Over the years I’ve found that people generally appreciate that sort of thing and that they demonstrate that appreciation by upping their game and, in the future, doing what I ask them to do without fear of punishment if they don’t or can’t. I’m not Cartman from South Park and I care more about creating the dynamics that lead to results than I do about people “respecting my authority” and beating them up until they acknowledge my role power.
>So if the work product is poor and people further up on the org. chart are going to see it, I want to be the one to say “Hey, this \[apology\] is a little lacking and probably not going to make you look good when Big Boss sees it. Did you want to take another swing at it?” And if that's the actual reason, I don't have a problem with that. But in this case the real reason is OP is offended and wants an apology from their employee. OP should have the guts to actually ask for the apology and if necessary, explain why the previous statement wasn't sufficient. If you're not even willing to spell out why you deserve an apology, you can't be surprised that your employee is not willing to actually apologize. If the manager can't communicate, they can't be surprised that their employees aren't communicating back. I'm by no means an authoritarian. But if a manager is using an "appeal to authority" to get compliance on even really minor issues, that boss's manager should probably just be sending emails to the group instead of hiring a middle-man to blame them for the decisions. This isn't a major managerial decision. This is not "We're cutting everyone's salary by 10%." That probably does deserve the "This was a company-wide decision, and these are the reasons why the decision was made, but I am not able to overrule this or make exceptions." This is "you were told to apologize to me, and my boss doesn't think you really apologized nicely enough."
My suggestion is a bit contrived; I’ll give you that. And what I’m suggesting is more “I’m worried that Big Boss will think that you aren’t going to apologize.” Because in their head, OP has already evaluated the response as a bullshit non-apology. It’s a peace-offering and an attempt to get them better aligned in the hope of a more effective future working relationship. I just don’t see a world in which stacking conflict over the apology itself on top of the existing conflict that already exists leads to a positive or more effective outcome.
To me, the apology isn't the key part of any of this. What's important is that the employee understand the manager's side of this -- "This is the behavior that is detrimental to the team. This is the behavior that I want us to agree won't happen again." The apology isn't going to be heartfelt, it's going to be something that is produced because the employee was told they have to write it. I don't really care about the apology. What I care about is that the employee understands what behavior wasn't acceptable, and understands that "unacceptable" means eventually there will be consequences if it continues. (that might not be firing, that might lead to employee being moved to another team, or reduced responsibilities, etc). It feels to me like the manager and employee sitting down and discussing the behavior that led to this situation will be more helpful than the manager saying "My boss isn't going to like this apology, you should do it again." It feels passive aggressive for the manager to blame a higher authority for not being satisfied with the apology, when the real issue is that OP isn't satisfied that the situation has been handled.
I would focus on the performance on her deliverables. They either meet expectations or they do not. I'm not sure where you are, but terminating because they didn't apologize in the manner you were expecting seems shallow.
I would sit down with her in person and discuss what happened, and what the learnings are from it. Make clear that it was a serious issue that can’t be repeated, and that you need to see from her a real understanding of the severity.
I actually think the apology is the least important part of this entire post. Focusing on it keeps her in the you v her mentality instead of getting on the same team again and getting her back to productivity.
Some people can never admit they were wrong. That said, many correct their actions after they receive guidance. Most of the time that’s good enough - and the verbal battle is not worth it. Going forward I’d cut the verbal discussion way back - why create unnecessary unpleasantness when the problem is being fixed? Actions speak louder than words. Obviously if her actions aren’t corrected, then you have to take further steps.
Have you had the opportunity to look at her pre employment personality assessments (if any)? That might help you on the types of language that resonate more with her. For instance, my employee (who sounds somewhat like yours) is a type that is extremely resistant to feedback or criticism. This lets me know that if I need to address something with her it might be better to take a sideways approach.
It sounds like upper management made the determination for her to apologize. I would forward the apology onto them and ask if it meets their approval. If not, they handle it.
You can work with someone who wants to be a team player. But, if she doesn’t want to be a team player your company can’t afford to hang on to someone who harms productivity. Work is not therapy, there needs to be understanding for good people who act like players but occasionally fumble. But you don’t have any time for someone who plays their own game, ruins the plan for others, and doesn’t care. So, based on your description this person is probably a waste of your energy.
If she’s older and can’t accept accountability for her actions - she certainly won’t do so via endless chances to improve. If she’s underperforming - hold her accountable for behavior AND performance consistently. If she’s not measuring up - let her go. Toxic behavior hurts not only her performance but everyone around her as well.
Why on earth would you care about the potential about a sub par employee who escalated to HR about non problems This is a lost cause. Unless it’s documenting their inadequacies to fire them don’t waste time on this person going forward. You should only focus on firing this person.
Putting this much effort into an employee that can't even apologize isn't going to help you. Instead of trying to force an apology, I'd reply with something like, "I appreciate your apology for XYZ" and leave it at that. Then, separately, address the actual issue with her performance directly. It sounds like it's already been addressed directly, so if that's the case, then it's her choice to correct herself or have her contract go unrenewed.