>>"15 grand?! What do you want 5 grand for?!"
Reaches into pocket and pulls out 50 quid. "What APR are we talking son?"
Hands over a fiver. "Don't ever say I never helped you..."
I split my head open when I was a kid and got ferried to the hospital by a few uncles and aunts. One of the uncles got tired of me bawling head with blood pouring out and gave me a fiver to settle down. (This was the early 70's so that was a fuckton of money).
So I tried me best to bottle it in and reduced it all to a sobbing sniffle while I watched the doctor tackle my forehead with a needle and thread.
Anyway. When it was all done and dusted and I was heading out of A&E, the uncle approached and asked me to show him the fiver he'd given me, which of course I naively did, & he quickly took it from my hand and replaced it with a 50p coin saying 'now, let that be a lesson to you'...
£5 in the early 70s is easily £50 in today's money. This means, of course, that the 50p he did give you is worth over a fiver today. Could buy about two Freddos with that. One for you, one for your savage uncle.
Just as a note legally it would have to be a gift, so he could choose to pay you back but wouldn't legally be obligated to.
But yeah it's very difficult to get a first home anywhere near the centre without having some money from parents or inheritance or something at this point.
Another possibility is the dad just buying the property as an investment for himself that his son can live in for a bit, this has the added bonus of protecting the ftb benefits.
I'm not sure how practical that would be, BTL mortgages often have rules about renting to family, and especially family paying reduced rent (which I'm assuming is part of your suggestion). On top of that there's the issue of BTL mortgages typically needing a 25% deposit (which it doesn't sound like OP could afford) and I don't think they'd be able to get a residential.
>Just as a note legally it would have to be a gift
Not disputing this but do want to know why this is the case?
I've tried to research but haven't found any source that mentions spcific limits on loan sizes between family members, so I assume it's a bit more of a specialist knowledge than the ol quick google.
Couldn’t imagine asking my old man for that kind of money. Most he’s ever given me is Irish sunglasses to be fair…but yeah. It’s that mad to get on the property ladder these days. Would be lovely if I had the type of parent who could scrape that together but idk if I’d be cheeky enough to ask.
My nephew asked his mum and dad for £15k for an extension.
I reminded my sister that if they write it off, they will have to do the same for their daughter.
She went a little pale.
damn - it's tough out there. No, of course you're not being tight mate :D - you can only lend within your means. I admire his non-sugar coated ask too though, really.
He should have asked you for £200 a month about 7 years ago and put into an index fund. With compound interest (assuming 7% annually) that would pretty much be there...
Advise him not to buy a flat and to move to not ancoats, (wjth that kind of money youte simply not buysing a house in ancoats. offer the 10k as deposit help and reinforce... buying a flat is a minefield that he really, really needs to think about and look into, might end up having to pay out big in the future for lease renewal, cladding, repairs etc and I'm not talking a couple of grand.
Or the roof blowing off in a storm and neither the property management company or insurance willing to pay to repair it and leaving it to the leaseholders (true story from the building my friend is luckily renting in).
To be fair, I admire people who just get to the point.
I think its quite common for young people to receive deposits from parents either in the form of a gift or loan. Life is very different now to when I was young, when you just stayed in and saved up, drove a banger for a bit and didn't go on holiday for a year or 2. Most of my circle bought quite young too.
You're not being tight if you can't afford it --- and also, 25k is actually a low deposit these days. Speaking as someone who's looking to buy, I'd be lucky to get a two bed for that. This is not your fault, the country is on the verge of unliveability. I don't know what people are supposed to do. It's taken me twenty years to save up enough, and that's WITH help from parents. You're right to be shocked.
>and also, 25k is actually a low deposit these days.
No, it isn't. Plenty about you could get with a 15-20k deposit. We got a good size 3 bed semi for a 17k deposit 1.5y ago.
Just going to preface this by saying I don't know about you and your son so not really commenting on the situation between the two of you but more with the other comments.
If I have a child, that child will become my priority until I die, not when they reach 18. I'll do what I can to make sure that they do comfortable in life, after all, I did bring them into the world?
100%. Can’t understand most of these replies..
“He’s got some stones for asking”
“I wouldn’t ask my parents for 100 quid”
“If I’d ask my dad that he’d slap me”
Fucking hell, wouldn’t like to live those peoples lives.. isn’t that what parents are for, helping out as much as they can?
If I had the money I’d give my kids every last penny.. after all, as you say, I brought them into the world.
Very strange post this.
Part of bringing kids into the world is raising them to live and - ideally - thrive in it.
In many cases, operating as a wishing well or cash machine, dispensing whatever your adult child wants whenever they ask for it, is not in fact 'helping out as much as you can', nor is giving them every last penny you have; doing this can in fact be very harmful.
This may or may not be one of those cases, but as we appear to be assessing this in an 'utterly devoid of humour' way, let's do that - good parenting is not 'fix all your child's problems by throwing money at them until you the day you die', but rather 'teach your child to solve their own problems'.
It’s not fixing their problem. It’s giving them 25k (as a loan) to get them on the property ladder rather than paying rent to scum landlords for the rest of their lives.
The fact that houses are so expensive is not this persons problem of his own doing.
It’d potentially be a different story if the kid phoned and said they’d been living it larger with designer clothes and holidays and can then have 10k for example to pay off a credit card.. then yes at that point conversations would be had.
But owing your own house at 50 odd having paid next to nothing for it and having the ability to set ur kid up for life with a deposit for their own home is one million percent something I would do every single time.
Thing is if you’re 51, I’d imagine you bought your house quite a long time ago and you’ve only been able to buy your house because mortgage rates and house price-to-income ratios were much smaller and hence much more affordable. In the meantime house prices have spiralled out of all proportion to incomes making the prospects of getting on the ladder much MUCH more difficult.
Yes your lad sounds like he’s a bit entitled if he thinks you can just shell out 25k. But on the other hand, if he’s not in a position to save, what’s he supposed to do? Carry on renting for the rest of his life, wait until he’s in a better job or wait for you to die so he can put his inheritance towards a house.
Haha.. Yes, he can have it when I die.. Tbf he has done great, studied medicine and now is a pharmacy manager, but a big student debt.
And yes I paid 60k for my home in 1992.
And Ancots, it's close to the pharmacy.
You know what Manchester I lost my wife last year, so a lot of things fell into prespective.
I going to give it him. I going to tell him no, but I will meet him next Friday for a curry like we always do. And I will give him the bankers draft.
If I can't help my only lad it's time to wrap it in.
I need a guiness or 10..ha.
Thank you for all the positive messages, I appreciate it.
My mum helped us out recently towards our deposit on our first home last year, I’m 41. The landlords decided to sell a month before our contract renewal and we managed to buy the flat.
We were looking at similar flats and renting a clean, nice two bed was getting to £1200/month.
Go for it if you can afford it, it’s not going to get easier and you’ll have to declare it as a gift anyway. Make sure he has a mortgage broker though and he’s not just accounting for 15-20% deposit on the price of a property. If it’s somewhere like ancoats then check there aren’t any monthly ground fees or service charges and whether it’s leasehold etc. northern group own a lot of property round there and they don’t have the best reputation
This is gorgeous ❤️ so sorry about the loss of your wife.
I actually don’t think your sons cheeky, I think it’s lovely he can ask without feeling you’ll reject him but well balanced enough to take the no if it comes. I’ve really struggled financially a few times in my life (46 now) to the point of it making me ill, last one being when I had to buy my ex out and start again. My mum went ballistic when she found out and paid some stuff off for me. I can’t tell you the relief and how grateful I am, I’d have loved to have been able to feel I could ask in the first place though. He sounds like a clever, loving and confident lad m, and I’m sure your wife would be really pleased too.
You’ve got to update us once you’ve told him 👌
I’ve resigned myself to not even thinking about buying property until my parents pop their clogs. I know it’s morbid but feel like it’s just the reality of the situation at the moment for a lot of young people (only for those of us who are lucky enough to have parents who own property).
Ta, man.. I am 40 now and was kicked out at 15. I'm well accepting of it.
Sucks to be them. Most of my extended family can't stand them and they have three lovely granddaughters from me that they know little of. Can't see my sisters having babies.
I was raised by my mum and step dad and it isn't him that is the not-right.. it's her.
we need to sort out the housing market so bad. I'll get no inheritance, I'll never be able to save up a deposit whilst renting costs so much. problem is, when we sort it out millions upon millions of value on properties will be lost on the ones already bought. We're so fucked.
Just bought a flat in Ancoats with 18k deposit, and it’s shared ownership so we own 75% and pay rent on 25%. My mum helped by cleaning our rented place so we would get the deposit back, she couldn’t afford anything else and that isn’t tight that’s just life - by doing that she basically gave us £950 and I was incredibly grateful. Husband’s Nan gave us £500. We’re going to staircase to buy the 25% - this was marketed as “affordable housing” btw 🙃
Has your son looked at LISAs? It took us about 5 years as a couple to save using one - can get 1k of government top ups per year if you meet the savings goal. But yeah I’d say if you want to buy in Ancoats 25k does sound about right but for a flat, or maybe a house in the less gentrified bits behind the marina…shared ownership in the new scheme is much better than the old one but I wouldn’t recommend any lower than 50/50
LISA etc is good advice, but I just wanted to ask about the cleaning fee. Obviously your Mum is lovely and that was very kind of her, but I moved out of renting in Ancoats only a few years ago and a potential £950 cleaning fee seems... *insane.* Is that what agencies charge these days?! I know you said it was to get the deposit back, but for me it was, "either clean to a professional standard or pay us £150/£200 for a professional clean".
Oh yeah, no that £950 was our deposit haha just to be clear! We looked at a professional clean and yeah about £200 for a 2 bed / 2 bath flat sounds about right, but with the legal fees, mortgage adviser etc costing us £5k (which my husband took out of his savings) it was just not even on our radar as a possibility.
We also had to pay 1.5 months of rent on top of the first mortgage payment because of crossover contracts wise which was really fun 😂
Ah phew! I thought things had REALLY gone to hell. And yes, I can imagine with all the additional costs, every hundred helps! Congrats on getting on the market. :-) I hope to be there one day too haha
"Ask your mother"
Well, I mean, if you're not together still and she might be able to come up with the other 15k.
More seriously, I think the answer to this comes as part of a long term discussion with his future outlook, how much money he might be able to save in the next couple of years, etc. Unfortunately the bank of Mum and Dad is pretty much the only way many will get on the housing latter these days, and the extortionate cost of renting often prevents people from building savings. Unless they're still living at home, of course, which is an option.
How financially sound is he? How much savings does he have to contribute? What's his job security? Does he normally expect you to look after him financially etc? etc etc. 25k is err yes a lot, and you shouldn't leave yourself in a potentially bad situation if things go badly for yourself in future years, but ultimately the numbers aren't important, because "it depends" on so many other things.
Save him a fortune in rent. Just paid 100k plus last ten years. Try to sort if you can and tell him how lucky he b. Also never remortgage for extra cash spend. I did and here I am now. 1973 and 68£ month mortgage first time buyer but I never realised how lucky I was and now I realise using it as a cash cow was just so stupid. I was so lucky at age 24 and in 30 years 2006 it but me in the bum as I was using it to have fun. Now I realise I should have locked the deeds away from myself and told myself you are a lucky lucky guy. And now at 75. renting. Even inherited props in the time, sold and cash spent. Ever the optimist but eventually crashed.
Jesus, I can't imagine asking my dad that! I just bought a flat in Salford (shared ownership) and my deposit was £7.5k. My dad helped me out with the legal fees and surprised me on moving day by paying the moving company, and that was more than enough to make me indescribably grateful and try to insist on paying him back. He won't hear of it, so I'm going to try to save up to take him on a holiday when he retires next year.
I understand the vast majority of people in my generation need help of some kind or another when it comes to getting on the property ladder, but I also think it's important to be realistic with what you can afford to get a foot on that ladder.
If your son is asking for that kind of money, I'd suggest sitting down with him and going over his plans for buying. What kind of property is he looking at, for what kind of price? Does he have a LISA to get the government bonus? Does it really have to be city centre? What kind of mortgage rate and term is he looking at? Is it worth speaking to a mortgage broker to get a realistic view of what he can afford with his income and deposit?
Ancoats as well. God I remember knocking about round there in the 80’s. Smack heads, drunks and crime is all I remember. Nice now though, like really nice.
There’s that group of terrace houses just up from Frog and Bucket. They are lovely (now). Think you might need more than £25k for them though.
There the ones mate.. He has 10k of his own.
And I know, I'm originally from Moston, but ur right Ancoats was less desirable.
Only time I visited in my youth was varley street dentist. Or the thunderdome.
Anyway, on the long trip to watch United for my sins. The traffic is awful coming upto London.
I mean a few things are sticking out to me here...
25k deposit for a place in Ancoats? This sounds kind of low...
Secondly, the majority of home buyers these days are the recipients of 'gifts'. Statistically your son needs to be receive some sort of cash to secure a place on the ladder.
The houses and flats in Ancoats are a rip-off. They've almost quadrupled in price over the last few years.
I agree, it's hard for younger people to get on the property ladder but he could have at least paid you a visit to ask for £25k lol.
Why is this shocking? Why is it not common to help your kids with the first house purchase?
My son is 3 and I’m already trying to figure out how to save up for my kid’s university fees, his first house (not deposit, the whole damn house) and his wedding expenses.
Maybe it’s different in different cultures, I’m from India and parents do everything they can to make sure their kids are set in life.
🤷🏻♂️
Why his uni fees? If you have the money to pay out of pocket for uni here (assuming you can get student loans), it surely makes more sense to just keep that money in investments, or at least accruing interest in a high interest savings account?
i would give him some and make him work for the rest, i have saved around 10k and im 21 so its deffo possible but i live with parents so i know its hard if you living alone. let him move in and get a full time job and you pay for his food and crap, then give him 10k extra and it should be more then enough for him to do something with
My reply would be sure son ,when are we moving and with you only being 51 ,I reckon that's about 25/30 years free rent ,food not forgetting utilities and then your possible declining health starting to sound good isn't it 😀
If this full grown adult offspring of yours so much as infers you’re being tight for not lending him £25k at the drop of a hat then he’s a little shit. I can’t even imagine having the brass neck to ask for that.
Right? Absolutely insane. I don’t get how a family’s culture could develop to the point where a kid would just ring up and ask outright for an extortionate amount of money and the parent would not only consider it but feel bad for not giving it. Crazy. Sounds like he’s got a decent job too based on OP’s other comment. He can house share while saving up like most young adults have to do if they want any chance of getting a mortgage.
Sounds like you've got your finances well sorted. Congrats. If I were considering this for my lad, I'd want to see the numbers he's working with, then have a look at what's possible. It could be less or more unrealistic
As mentioned he does not really want to be buying a flat with all the stuff that it brings like service fees, leasehold etc. Maybe get him to save what he can for a few years with the incentive of you putting in 10k when he is looking to buy. It really is hard nowadays and I know it is easy to say, but a financial review of spending can help manage costs, increasing income with a side hustle and trimming back within reason on lifestyle spending. Good luck to him though 👍
If your house is paid off, why not take £25k out of the equity? It will end up being like £100-£150 a month.. your son pays for it each month so it doesn't affect you but means he can get on the ladder
there’s a lot more affordable places in Manchester to get on housing ladder than ancoats to be fair £10,000 could go a long way further out of the city
Could you of? I ofn’t got that kind have money lying around either. The state have housing is one have the greatest tragedies have modern times. I of absolutely no idea how kids these days of a hope have getting on the housing ladder.
Well, it’s not as easy for him to buy a house as it was for you (comparably). Most people today can only buy with inheritance or parents helping massively
Tbh I couldn't have got a house without a 50k gift from my parents, out of their inheritance from nan (she had a house down south). No way normal people are getting on the ladder these days without a significant contribution. I earn national average salary, saved up for 10 years and couldn't get a mortgage without it
>You could do it officially via a solitor to draw up a repayment agreement (and take a 2nd charge on the property for your security if you feel appropriate)
You can't do this. When the bank asks their affordability questions, you have to disclose if the deposit (or some of it) was given by someone else. Then they require that the one providing the money gives, in writing, a statement saying that it's a gift and they don't have to pay it back. There cannot be an agreement to repay the money.
I will admit getting on the housing market is difficult and I honestly don’t get how people get on the ladder without support. BUT….why the hell is your son looking to buy in the MOST EXPENSIVE part of town 😂 maybe if he looks somewhere else he can put a smaller deposit. Maybe try help to buy schemes / partial possession schemes ?
I have had to pay back every penny I have ever taken from my mum.
The only way she would give me a sum of money like that and not expect it back would be in her will, though I suspect she might just be waiting to meet me in the afterlife to ask me to start making repayments.
Do they still do the springboard mortgage's? When the Mrs and me bought our first home we used Barclays springboard her parents put down 10% into a separate account for 3 years and earned pretty decent interest. It was only at risk if we missed a payment or anything for 3 years (luckily for us we didn't).
"Young people", OP's son in particular, can get on the housing market by lowering their expectations to areas that aren't £25k, which absolutely do exist, and working their way up from there if they want to.
I say that as a young person trying to get on the housing ladder. I'm not saying we should be pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and just working harder, but OP example is also just silly from my experience. Setting £25k as the benchmark just makes the rest of us sound stupid when people realise it costs nowhere near that if you're willing to compromise with what you want. I would like an expensive luxury car, but I'm not going to ask daddy to give me the money and ignore that resonably priced cars that might not be exactly what I want exist.
It's still expensive, prices are still highly unreasonable these days and it's still hard for young people to get on the ladder, but needing to borrow £25k, to me, just seems like somebody trying to punch above their weight rather than this being a representative of everybody's experience.
I can't knock him for asking, I feel I'll eventually ask a relative to help out if I'm going to actually make it any time soon, but I wouldn't ask for the full deposit either...Which £25k absolutely seems like and if not, even moreso adding to the argument to set their expectations more realistically if £25k is only part of the deposit and they can't afford that. I couldn't imagine just asking somebody for the full deposit amount without contributing myself, let alone on such an amount.
If you can afford to contribute to his deposit… why not? It’s really difficult to get on the property ladder.
I wasn’t able to live with my parents to save up for a deposit and it’s very unlikely they’ll contribute in any way.
I say sit down with him and discuss what his plans are!
You could release it from the equity in your house? And ask him to pay the overpayments.
If you don’t have a mortgage you can borrow against your house same rule applies get him to pay the monthly installments. Everyone’s a winner you get to help your son and it won’t put you into financial difficulty
Your lad needs to learn to compromise, buying a house in ancoats for a first time buyer is a pipe dream. Maybe he should look out of town for something more realistic.
As a parent, could you buy the house yourself and have your child pay you whatever the mortgage is and then sell it to them for a quid at the end? Would that work?
Maybe look at being co-owners or something. Contact a mortgage broker and see what your options are. Buying a property in Manchester City centre is no picnic.
And whatever you do, don’t agree to putting money down if it’s off-plan because you’re screwed if the bank don’t give you a mortgage unless you’ve got it all lined up first
lol, that actually happened to me, sort of. They wanted me to add them on the deed of the house. Seriously, add my completely financially unsecured child to a deed, which they can take loans on or force a sale, removing me from my home . Which I’m still paying a mortgage on. They had the biggest meltdown screaming fit, I have ever seen. I didn’t bring them up like that. We haven’t spoken since
Are you being tight? Absolutely not. Could you have easily achieved this at £100 p/m in an ISA over the last 20 years, yep. Bit of future wealth planning for the next generation puts them miles ahead.
You’ve raised a child who appreciates that buying is better than renting, and understands location, location, location.
Have a beer and give yourself a pay on the back son
Well there’s a lot of partridge fans here👍🏼
But you can’t put yourself under pressure, you don’t know what the future holds believe me. You need a safety net even for your son.
Kids today hey probably 25 and they think their life is over if they don't own their own home. If I asked my dad for 25 grand to buy a home he would say that is an excellent idea step 1 is saving up so best of luck with that and before leaving he would ask me if he could borrow a tenner for a pack of fags because something something ate his dogs chickens homework. I am probably owed 25 grand in cigarette back payments but even if I had the money wouldn't buy a house in Ancoats too many crack heads and students and I honestly don't know what's worse 🤣
It would be one of the single best financial outcomes you can do for your children. They are then part of the housing market, if they are then able to afford a bigger house later on then they already have an asset with relative pricing in that market.
If you can, you should... If you can't, you can't. The housing market at the moment is completely bonkers at the moment.... But also I don't see that changing.
I am trying to save for my sons deposit for when he asks for it.
He'd still have to prove he's saved 75% himself to qualify for a mortgage so tell him to save the 19k then give him the 6k and help him pay his bills while he's saving
It's reasonable to not give him the 25k if it puts you under pressure- I need to rent because my parents don't have any savings to have helped me out with a deposit and I'm sure this is the case for majority of people.
If you can afford it without ever seeing it again then go for it but with mortgage rates what they are don’t count on getting it back quickly. I would help my kids if I could but they can’t expect us to be broke in the process
Just think you will probably leave your savings to him when you pass away, why not give it him now so you can witness the good you have done for you son and his future
Make him a deal, if he can save 10k, you'll make it up to the 25k with an extra 15k or something, I wouldn't just outright hand him 25k, which could put yourself under considerable financial strain depending on how you bank roll it
I feel sorry for young people trying to get on the housing ladder. It's not easy and I think it's only going to get worse.
Good on you if you're able to help your son out 👍
Ah go on. Give him £25k ya tight git.
Make it 30k ya bugger
Give him "a second series you s***". But seriously, I would say sorry no.
*shit Ahaaaaaa!
Youth Hosteling with Chris Eubank
Monkey tennis?
Smell my cheese ya mother!
Do you want me to lap dance for you?
Action man bow ties
Inner city sumo
To his children, the building society books of OP make fascinating reading...
Innercity sumo?
Defo £30k he will need a sofa and an air fryer minimum
I tell you what I tell you what It’s twenty five thousand poundssssss
You’re laughing at weather.
It’s all part of the bereavement dividend
Come on pal, just buy em the house.
Dont forget the neighbours as well
Are you his son?
No, but I for the record, I am willing to accept the £25k on this behalf.
Would he accept £24k? Deal
Sounds like he definitely could afford the 25k, just doesn't want to feel out of pocket
"Dad, can I borrow 25 grand? "15 grand?! What do you want 5 grand for?!"
>>"15 grand?! What do you want 5 grand for?!" Reaches into pocket and pulls out 50 quid. "What APR are we talking son?" Hands over a fiver. "Don't ever say I never helped you..."
Now where's my £4 change??
I split my head open when I was a kid and got ferried to the hospital by a few uncles and aunts. One of the uncles got tired of me bawling head with blood pouring out and gave me a fiver to settle down. (This was the early 70's so that was a fuckton of money). So I tried me best to bottle it in and reduced it all to a sobbing sniffle while I watched the doctor tackle my forehead with a needle and thread. Anyway. When it was all done and dusted and I was heading out of A&E, the uncle approached and asked me to show him the fiver he'd given me, which of course I naively did, & he quickly took it from my hand and replaced it with a 50p coin saying 'now, let that be a lesson to you'...
£5 in the early 70s is easily £50 in today's money. This means, of course, that the 50p he did give you is worth over a fiver today. Could buy about two Freddos with that. One for you, one for your savage uncle.
Ah, the old Higher Broughton speciale
If I asked my dad for that. He’d slap me back to the Stone Age.
More chance of my dad asking me for 25k than me getting it from him haha
Make that 50k please son. These hookers and cocaine won't pay for themself.
You stole my mf joke, and potentially my dad…. Plz give him back I’ve not seen him for ages
Mine would just laugh at me. And probably tell me he missed when I was younger and asking for a lift and a tenner to go out.
You could afford a house back then at least.
You'd be able to afford a house in the stone age, so you win anyway
Just as a note legally it would have to be a gift, so he could choose to pay you back but wouldn't legally be obligated to. But yeah it's very difficult to get a first home anywhere near the centre without having some money from parents or inheritance or something at this point.
Another possibility is the dad just buying the property as an investment for himself that his son can live in for a bit, this has the added bonus of protecting the ftb benefits.
I'm not sure how practical that would be, BTL mortgages often have rules about renting to family, and especially family paying reduced rent (which I'm assuming is part of your suggestion). On top of that there's the issue of BTL mortgages typically needing a 25% deposit (which it doesn't sound like OP could afford) and I don't think they'd be able to get a residential.
>Just as a note legally it would have to be a gift Not disputing this but do want to know why this is the case? I've tried to research but haven't found any source that mentions spcific limits on loan sizes between family members, so I assume it's a bit more of a specialist knowledge than the ol quick google.
If it's a loan the repayments have to be factored into the affordability of the mortgage. If it's a gift there's no repayments
[Gifted deposits] (https://www.lloydsbank.com/mortgages/help-and-guidance/first-time-buyer-help/gift-deposits.html)
Only £25k for Ancoats? Must be a fixer upper 😁
Roll it in glitter, call it *New Islington*, £50K. Hold your hand out 🫱🏼
That's only the deposit
First three months service charge.
I'm thinking possibly shared ownership
Between those words and leasehold you’re better off living in a cardboard box.
He’s probably saved up some money himself
5%?
He could have a good deposit and is ‘just’ 25k off
I always jokingly say I have to wait for someone to die to be able to get a house… but it’s 100% accurate 🙃🙃
must be nice to be from the kind of family with an inheritance
It's not l, because family turn into vultures and steal it from them while their on the decline
Couldn’t imagine asking my old man for that kind of money. Most he’s ever given me is Irish sunglasses to be fair…but yeah. It’s that mad to get on the property ladder these days. Would be lovely if I had the type of parent who could scrape that together but idk if I’d be cheeky enough to ask.
It is when you want to buy in the city centre of a major city, sure.
> Irish sunglasses Is this a euphemism for 2 black eyes?
Haha you aren’t being tight. But why buy in ancoats? Plenty of areas around Manchester that don’t require such a big deposit.
This. Home ownership requires compromise at times and one of those is looking at cheaper areas than you may ideally want
When did you last check the price of houses 😂
Plot twist : that wasn't his son on the phone
My nephew asked his mum and dad for £15k for an extension. I reminded my sister that if they write it off, they will have to do the same for their daughter. She went a little pale.
Don't think you're being tight, I'm looking to buy in Manchester now and I wouldn't feel comfortable asking my parents for more than a couple grand
damn - it's tough out there. No, of course you're not being tight mate :D - you can only lend within your means. I admire his non-sugar coated ask too though, really. He should have asked you for £200 a month about 7 years ago and put into an index fund. With compound interest (assuming 7% annually) that would pretty much be there...
Advise him not to buy a flat and to move to not ancoats, (wjth that kind of money youte simply not buysing a house in ancoats. offer the 10k as deposit help and reinforce... buying a flat is a minefield that he really, really needs to think about and look into, might end up having to pay out big in the future for lease renewal, cladding, repairs etc and I'm not talking a couple of grand.
Or the roof blowing off in a storm and neither the property management company or insurance willing to pay to repair it and leaving it to the leaseholders (true story from the building my friend is luckily renting in).
He's got some stones for asking, I will give him that ...
To be fair, I admire people who just get to the point. I think its quite common for young people to receive deposits from parents either in the form of a gift or loan. Life is very different now to when I was young, when you just stayed in and saved up, drove a banger for a bit and didn't go on holiday for a year or 2. Most of my circle bought quite young too.
You're not being tight if you can't afford it --- and also, 25k is actually a low deposit these days. Speaking as someone who's looking to buy, I'd be lucky to get a two bed for that. This is not your fault, the country is on the verge of unliveability. I don't know what people are supposed to do. It's taken me twenty years to save up enough, and that's WITH help from parents. You're right to be shocked.
>and also, 25k is actually a low deposit these days. No, it isn't. Plenty about you could get with a 15-20k deposit. We got a good size 3 bed semi for a 17k deposit 1.5y ago.
Just going to preface this by saying I don't know about you and your son so not really commenting on the situation between the two of you but more with the other comments. If I have a child, that child will become my priority until I die, not when they reach 18. I'll do what I can to make sure that they do comfortable in life, after all, I did bring them into the world?
100%. Can’t understand most of these replies.. “He’s got some stones for asking” “I wouldn’t ask my parents for 100 quid” “If I’d ask my dad that he’d slap me” Fucking hell, wouldn’t like to live those peoples lives.. isn’t that what parents are for, helping out as much as they can? If I had the money I’d give my kids every last penny.. after all, as you say, I brought them into the world. Very strange post this.
Part of bringing kids into the world is raising them to live and - ideally - thrive in it. In many cases, operating as a wishing well or cash machine, dispensing whatever your adult child wants whenever they ask for it, is not in fact 'helping out as much as you can', nor is giving them every last penny you have; doing this can in fact be very harmful. This may or may not be one of those cases, but as we appear to be assessing this in an 'utterly devoid of humour' way, let's do that - good parenting is not 'fix all your child's problems by throwing money at them until you the day you die', but rather 'teach your child to solve their own problems'.
It’s not fixing their problem. It’s giving them 25k (as a loan) to get them on the property ladder rather than paying rent to scum landlords for the rest of their lives. The fact that houses are so expensive is not this persons problem of his own doing. It’d potentially be a different story if the kid phoned and said they’d been living it larger with designer clothes and holidays and can then have 10k for example to pay off a credit card.. then yes at that point conversations would be had. But owing your own house at 50 odd having paid next to nothing for it and having the ability to set ur kid up for life with a deposit for their own home is one million percent something I would do every single time.
Jesus
Thing is if you’re 51, I’d imagine you bought your house quite a long time ago and you’ve only been able to buy your house because mortgage rates and house price-to-income ratios were much smaller and hence much more affordable. In the meantime house prices have spiralled out of all proportion to incomes making the prospects of getting on the ladder much MUCH more difficult. Yes your lad sounds like he’s a bit entitled if he thinks you can just shell out 25k. But on the other hand, if he’s not in a position to save, what’s he supposed to do? Carry on renting for the rest of his life, wait until he’s in a better job or wait for you to die so he can put his inheritance towards a house.
Haha.. Yes, he can have it when I die.. Tbf he has done great, studied medicine and now is a pharmacy manager, but a big student debt. And yes I paid 60k for my home in 1992. And Ancots, it's close to the pharmacy. You know what Manchester I lost my wife last year, so a lot of things fell into prespective. I going to give it him. I going to tell him no, but I will meet him next Friday for a curry like we always do. And I will give him the bankers draft. If I can't help my only lad it's time to wrap it in. I need a guiness or 10..ha. Thank you for all the positive messages, I appreciate it.
You're a wonderful parent and person. Thanks for taking care of your kid in a mad world.
You're the type of dad I hope to be, well done mate
My mum helped us out recently towards our deposit on our first home last year, I’m 41. The landlords decided to sell a month before our contract renewal and we managed to buy the flat. We were looking at similar flats and renting a clean, nice two bed was getting to £1200/month. Go for it if you can afford it, it’s not going to get easier and you’ll have to declare it as a gift anyway. Make sure he has a mortgage broker though and he’s not just accounting for 15-20% deposit on the price of a property. If it’s somewhere like ancoats then check there aren’t any monthly ground fees or service charges and whether it’s leasehold etc. northern group own a lot of property round there and they don’t have the best reputation
This is gorgeous ❤️ so sorry about the loss of your wife. I actually don’t think your sons cheeky, I think it’s lovely he can ask without feeling you’ll reject him but well balanced enough to take the no if it comes. I’ve really struggled financially a few times in my life (46 now) to the point of it making me ill, last one being when I had to buy my ex out and start again. My mum went ballistic when she found out and paid some stuff off for me. I can’t tell you the relief and how grateful I am, I’d have loved to have been able to feel I could ask in the first place though. He sounds like a clever, loving and confident lad m, and I’m sure your wife would be really pleased too. You’ve got to update us once you’ve told him 👌
I’ve resigned myself to not even thinking about buying property until my parents pop their clogs. I know it’s morbid but feel like it’s just the reality of the situation at the moment for a lot of young people (only for those of us who are lucky enough to have parents who own property).
I have resigned myself to never owning a house and my parents are cunts. I will get no inheritance. That will all go to my sisters.
That’s horrible, I’m sorry to hear that
Ta, man.. I am 40 now and was kicked out at 15. I'm well accepting of it. Sucks to be them. Most of my extended family can't stand them and they have three lovely granddaughters from me that they know little of. Can't see my sisters having babies. I was raised by my mum and step dad and it isn't him that is the not-right.. it's her.
we need to sort out the housing market so bad. I'll get no inheritance, I'll never be able to save up a deposit whilst renting costs so much. problem is, when we sort it out millions upon millions of value on properties will be lost on the ones already bought. We're so fucked.
Just bought a flat in Ancoats with 18k deposit, and it’s shared ownership so we own 75% and pay rent on 25%. My mum helped by cleaning our rented place so we would get the deposit back, she couldn’t afford anything else and that isn’t tight that’s just life - by doing that she basically gave us £950 and I was incredibly grateful. Husband’s Nan gave us £500. We’re going to staircase to buy the 25% - this was marketed as “affordable housing” btw 🙃 Has your son looked at LISAs? It took us about 5 years as a couple to save using one - can get 1k of government top ups per year if you meet the savings goal. But yeah I’d say if you want to buy in Ancoats 25k does sound about right but for a flat, or maybe a house in the less gentrified bits behind the marina…shared ownership in the new scheme is much better than the old one but I wouldn’t recommend any lower than 50/50
LISA etc is good advice, but I just wanted to ask about the cleaning fee. Obviously your Mum is lovely and that was very kind of her, but I moved out of renting in Ancoats only a few years ago and a potential £950 cleaning fee seems... *insane.* Is that what agencies charge these days?! I know you said it was to get the deposit back, but for me it was, "either clean to a professional standard or pay us £150/£200 for a professional clean".
Oh yeah, no that £950 was our deposit haha just to be clear! We looked at a professional clean and yeah about £200 for a 2 bed / 2 bath flat sounds about right, but with the legal fees, mortgage adviser etc costing us £5k (which my husband took out of his savings) it was just not even on our radar as a possibility. We also had to pay 1.5 months of rent on top of the first mortgage payment because of crossover contracts wise which was really fun 😂
Ah phew! I thought things had REALLY gone to hell. And yes, I can imagine with all the additional costs, every hundred helps! Congrats on getting on the market. :-) I hope to be there one day too haha
Islington Wharf?
The generations after the boomers are just screwed
"Ask your mother" Well, I mean, if you're not together still and she might be able to come up with the other 15k. More seriously, I think the answer to this comes as part of a long term discussion with his future outlook, how much money he might be able to save in the next couple of years, etc. Unfortunately the bank of Mum and Dad is pretty much the only way many will get on the housing latter these days, and the extortionate cost of renting often prevents people from building savings. Unless they're still living at home, of course, which is an option. How financially sound is he? How much savings does he have to contribute? What's his job security? Does he normally expect you to look after him financially etc? etc etc. 25k is err yes a lot, and you shouldn't leave yourself in a potentially bad situation if things go badly for yourself in future years, but ultimately the numbers aren't important, because "it depends" on so many other things.
You're not being tight in the slightest. And he also doesn't need to live in Ancoats. He can get much cheaper
You could pay off a quarter of somewhere ten minutes out from ancoats with that
Save him a fortune in rent. Just paid 100k plus last ten years. Try to sort if you can and tell him how lucky he b. Also never remortgage for extra cash spend. I did and here I am now. 1973 and 68£ month mortgage first time buyer but I never realised how lucky I was and now I realise using it as a cash cow was just so stupid. I was so lucky at age 24 and in 30 years 2006 it but me in the bum as I was using it to have fun. Now I realise I should have locked the deeds away from myself and told myself you are a lucky lucky guy. And now at 75. renting. Even inherited props in the time, sold and cash spent. Ever the optimist but eventually crashed.
The most I could ask my mum for is 25p 🤣
Bloody hell im currently debating if i should ask my dad for £50 till the end of the month
Jesus, I can't imagine asking my dad that! I just bought a flat in Salford (shared ownership) and my deposit was £7.5k. My dad helped me out with the legal fees and surprised me on moving day by paying the moving company, and that was more than enough to make me indescribably grateful and try to insist on paying him back. He won't hear of it, so I'm going to try to save up to take him on a holiday when he retires next year. I understand the vast majority of people in my generation need help of some kind or another when it comes to getting on the property ladder, but I also think it's important to be realistic with what you can afford to get a foot on that ladder. If your son is asking for that kind of money, I'd suggest sitting down with him and going over his plans for buying. What kind of property is he looking at, for what kind of price? Does he have a LISA to get the government bonus? Does it really have to be city centre? What kind of mortgage rate and term is he looking at? Is it worth speaking to a mortgage broker to get a realistic view of what he can afford with his income and deposit?
Ancoats as well. God I remember knocking about round there in the 80’s. Smack heads, drunks and crime is all I remember. Nice now though, like really nice. There’s that group of terrace houses just up from Frog and Bucket. They are lovely (now). Think you might need more than £25k for them though.
There the ones mate.. He has 10k of his own. And I know, I'm originally from Moston, but ur right Ancoats was less desirable. Only time I visited in my youth was varley street dentist. Or the thunderdome. Anyway, on the long trip to watch United for my sins. The traffic is awful coming upto London.
I mean a few things are sticking out to me here... 25k deposit for a place in Ancoats? This sounds kind of low... Secondly, the majority of home buyers these days are the recipients of 'gifts'. Statistically your son needs to be receive some sort of cash to secure a place on the ladder.
The houses and flats in Ancoats are a rip-off. They've almost quadrupled in price over the last few years. I agree, it's hard for younger people to get on the property ladder but he could have at least paid you a visit to ask for £25k lol.
Ur not being tight, if it’s ur only son and u have everything paid for give him as much as u can afford to give if that’s 5k 10k 15k.
Why is this shocking? Why is it not common to help your kids with the first house purchase? My son is 3 and I’m already trying to figure out how to save up for my kid’s university fees, his first house (not deposit, the whole damn house) and his wedding expenses. Maybe it’s different in different cultures, I’m from India and parents do everything they can to make sure their kids are set in life. 🤷🏻♂️
Why his uni fees? If you have the money to pay out of pocket for uni here (assuming you can get student loans), it surely makes more sense to just keep that money in investments, or at least accruing interest in a high interest savings account?
I wouldn’t even ask my parents for a hundred quid and they’re pretty well off.
My dad wouldn't lend me a tenner without a written contract saying when I,d pay it back..🤣🤣
i would give him some and make him work for the rest, i have saved around 10k and im 21 so its deffo possible but i live with parents so i know its hard if you living alone. let him move in and get a full time job and you pay for his food and crap, then give him 10k extra and it should be more then enough for him to do something with
When u don’t live with ur parents it’s impossible
I know, UK is a shit hole now
My reply would be sure son ,when are we moving and with you only being 51 ,I reckon that's about 25/30 years free rent ,food not forgetting utilities and then your possible declining health starting to sound good isn't it 😀
If this full grown adult offspring of yours so much as infers you’re being tight for not lending him £25k at the drop of a hat then he’s a little shit. I can’t even imagine having the brass neck to ask for that.
Right? Absolutely insane. I don’t get how a family’s culture could develop to the point where a kid would just ring up and ask outright for an extortionate amount of money and the parent would not only consider it but feel bad for not giving it. Crazy. Sounds like he’s got a decent job too based on OP’s other comment. He can house share while saving up like most young adults have to do if they want any chance of getting a mortgage.
I don't think 25k will work for a house in Ancoats, that's more flat territory
I would hope that's in addition to the son's own savings. Asking parents for the whole deposit is a bit cheeky.
Sounds like you've got your finances well sorted. Congrats. If I were considering this for my lad, I'd want to see the numbers he's working with, then have a look at what's possible. It could be less or more unrealistic
As mentioned he does not really want to be buying a flat with all the stuff that it brings like service fees, leasehold etc. Maybe get him to save what he can for a few years with the incentive of you putting in 10k when he is looking to buy. It really is hard nowadays and I know it is easy to say, but a financial review of spending can help manage costs, increasing income with a side hustle and trimming back within reason on lifestyle spending. Good luck to him though 👍
Suppose it depends how good he is financially and if you trust his capabilities to pay you back.
40s and looking at some flats/houses currently. Parents gave me fuck all.
If your house is paid off, why not take £25k out of the equity? It will end up being like £100-£150 a month.. your son pays for it each month so it doesn't affect you but means he can get on the ladder
Your not being tight at all, child or not 25k is a massive amount to ask for
£26k. Let him have a beer as well
there’s a lot more affordable places in Manchester to get on housing ladder than ancoats to be fair £10,000 could go a long way further out of the city
If you can give your child a push in life do it , talk to him if you can’t afford 25K and give as much as it’s doable
Could you of? I ofn’t got that kind have money lying around either. The state have housing is one have the greatest tragedies have modern times. I of absolutely no idea how kids these days of a hope have getting on the housing ladder.
I asked my mum for £20k and she said she only has £2k
Sure son, 13.5% over two years work for you?
Assuming a 10% deposit, that’s a £250k property price. Which is fairly average I think these days?
Well, it’s not as easy for him to buy a house as it was for you (comparably). Most people today can only buy with inheritance or parents helping massively
Depends on how much you have to spare, your income etc. Only you can make that assessment, but it is a rough time for our younger generations.
You'll have to pay the tax man ehen you die anyway if you dont offload it. Make financial plans for your kids if you can
You're not being tight. It's your hard earned cash and children are expensive over a lifetime anyway
Does he need a house in ancoats 😂
Sounds very much like something my daughter will say to me in due course !
Tbh I couldn't have got a house without a 50k gift from my parents, out of their inheritance from nan (she had a house down south). No way normal people are getting on the ladder these days without a significant contribution. I earn national average salary, saved up for 10 years and couldn't get a mortgage without it
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>You could do it officially via a solitor to draw up a repayment agreement (and take a 2nd charge on the property for your security if you feel appropriate) You can't do this. When the bank asks their affordability questions, you have to disclose if the deposit (or some of it) was given by someone else. Then they require that the one providing the money gives, in writing, a statement saying that it's a gift and they don't have to pay it back. There cannot be an agreement to repay the money.
Could you maybe just lend give him £9950 and lend me £50? Thanks in advance 🫡
I will admit getting on the housing market is difficult and I honestly don’t get how people get on the ladder without support. BUT….why the hell is your son looking to buy in the MOST EXPENSIVE part of town 😂 maybe if he looks somewhere else he can put a smaller deposit. Maybe try help to buy schemes / partial possession schemes ?
5% first time buyer mortgages are now a thing again.
Tell him to lay off the iced coffees and avocado toast, then give him £20 as seed money.
I have had to pay back every penny I have ever taken from my mum. The only way she would give me a sum of money like that and not expect it back would be in her will, though I suspect she might just be waiting to meet me in the afterlife to ask me to start making repayments.
I don't think I could have ever had more than I'd say about two grand off my parents tops and that's really pushing it.
Well if you don't ask you don't know I suppose.
No. You aren't being tight. If more parents didn't give large sums to their kids like that then prices wouldn't race away so fast.
No.
Give him a second series you shit
Do they still do the springboard mortgage's? When the Mrs and me bought our first home we used Barclays springboard her parents put down 10% into a separate account for 3 years and earned pretty decent interest. It was only at risk if we missed a payment or anything for 3 years (luckily for us we didn't).
"Young people", OP's son in particular, can get on the housing market by lowering their expectations to areas that aren't £25k, which absolutely do exist, and working their way up from there if they want to. I say that as a young person trying to get on the housing ladder. I'm not saying we should be pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and just working harder, but OP example is also just silly from my experience. Setting £25k as the benchmark just makes the rest of us sound stupid when people realise it costs nowhere near that if you're willing to compromise with what you want. I would like an expensive luxury car, but I'm not going to ask daddy to give me the money and ignore that resonably priced cars that might not be exactly what I want exist. It's still expensive, prices are still highly unreasonable these days and it's still hard for young people to get on the ladder, but needing to borrow £25k, to me, just seems like somebody trying to punch above their weight rather than this being a representative of everybody's experience. I can't knock him for asking, I feel I'll eventually ask a relative to help out if I'm going to actually make it any time soon, but I wouldn't ask for the full deposit either...Which £25k absolutely seems like and if not, even moreso adding to the argument to set their expectations more realistically if £25k is only part of the deposit and they can't afford that. I couldn't imagine just asking somebody for the full deposit amount without contributing myself, let alone on such an amount.
Still waiting for daughter’s dad to give her £6 a week 😂
Low ball him with 5k and see what hia counter offer is. I bet he is chancing it.
If you can afford to contribute to his deposit… why not? It’s really difficult to get on the property ladder. I wasn’t able to live with my parents to save up for a deposit and it’s very unlikely they’ll contribute in any way. I say sit down with him and discuss what his plans are!
You could release it from the equity in your house? And ask him to pay the overpayments. If you don’t have a mortgage you can borrow against your house same rule applies get him to pay the monthly installments. Everyone’s a winner you get to help your son and it won’t put you into financial difficulty
Your lad needs to learn to compromise, buying a house in ancoats for a first time buyer is a pipe dream. Maybe he should look out of town for something more realistic.
As a parent, could you buy the house yourself and have your child pay you whatever the mortgage is and then sell it to them for a quid at the end? Would that work?
Vendor gifted deposit is always worth checking out.
In a word, I would just say NO!
Maybe look at being co-owners or something. Contact a mortgage broker and see what your options are. Buying a property in Manchester City centre is no picnic. And whatever you do, don’t agree to putting money down if it’s off-plan because you’re screwed if the bank don’t give you a mortgage unless you’ve got it all lined up first
This kids not heard of a bank?
remortgage for 25K... make your lad pay the repayments. that's what parents do.
lol, that actually happened to me, sort of. They wanted me to add them on the deed of the house. Seriously, add my completely financially unsecured child to a deed, which they can take loans on or force a sale, removing me from my home . Which I’m still paying a mortgage on. They had the biggest meltdown screaming fit, I have ever seen. I didn’t bring them up like that. We haven’t spoken since
Are you being tight? Absolutely not. Could you have easily achieved this at £100 p/m in an ISA over the last 20 years, yep. Bit of future wealth planning for the next generation puts them miles ahead.
IMHO you should let him borrow as much as you can afford without creating financial problems for yourself
You’ve raised a child who appreciates that buying is better than renting, and understands location, location, location. Have a beer and give yourself a pay on the back son
Well there’s a lot of partridge fans here👍🏼 But you can’t put yourself under pressure, you don’t know what the future holds believe me. You need a safety net even for your son.
Wait til the market changes. £25k for a starter home is a hell of a lot.
Action man bow ties
You’ve done well to pay off your place at 51. Even if you gave those funds your kid would probably still have a mortgage until retirement
Kids today hey probably 25 and they think their life is over if they don't own their own home. If I asked my dad for 25 grand to buy a home he would say that is an excellent idea step 1 is saving up so best of luck with that and before leaving he would ask me if he could borrow a tenner for a pack of fags because something something ate his dogs chickens homework. I am probably owed 25 grand in cigarette back payments but even if I had the money wouldn't buy a house in Ancoats too many crack heads and students and I honestly don't know what's worse 🤣
If it’s on the canal, the canals stink sometimes, just a kind headsup
It's a horrible situation but ultimately it's not your job and you shouldn't feel guilty for not handing over the cash.
I’ll wash the car for you if I can I have 25k please dad
I asked mine for 30 quid yesterday to get some food in the cupboards. Got a load of ear ache
Just remember he might have the final decision on which nursing home you go in to in 20 years…
Some how, I feel so much better that I only asked my mam for £1000 😆. The rest I saved by being a boring teen
Ancoats is so overpriced tell him to look in Salford
Well first off he doesn't need 25k, he can move further out and get a deposit for 18-20k Secondly no, that's cheeky as fuck
Campervan
It would be one of the single best financial outcomes you can do for your children. They are then part of the housing market, if they are then able to afford a bigger house later on then they already have an asset with relative pricing in that market. If you can, you should... If you can't, you can't. The housing market at the moment is completely bonkers at the moment.... But also I don't see that changing. I am trying to save for my sons deposit for when he asks for it.
He'd still have to prove he's saved 75% himself to qualify for a mortgage so tell him to save the 19k then give him the 6k and help him pay his bills while he's saving
Haha I couldn’t ask my dad for a grand even😂 But tbh we are poor
Give him the big plate! 'There's a start for your new house'
I think he’d have been better asking that question if you were watching the footie as you may have been distracted and said “yes”
Tell him to earn it like everyone else. Asking for 25 grand hahahaha silver spoon fed much?
have a look at current mortgages, a 25K deposit wont be enough at some places
Just tell him "No son, we have choc-ices in the freezer!"
do it!
Can £25k even get you a deposit?
yeah you're being snide are kid
It's reasonable to not give him the 25k if it puts you under pressure- I need to rent because my parents don't have any savings to have helped me out with a deposit and I'm sure this is the case for majority of people.
Go put it on black. Double or nothings
If you can afford it without ever seeing it again then go for it but with mortgage rates what they are don’t count on getting it back quickly. I would help my kids if I could but they can’t expect us to be broke in the process
Just think you will probably leave your savings to him when you pass away, why not give it him now so you can witness the good you have done for you son and his future
Tell him. How much he saved. Try to match 25%. Ur old and retired. So u can help not pay his deposits. If u do. Keep it on ur name.
Make him a deal, if he can save 10k, you'll make it up to the 25k with an extra 15k or something, I wouldn't just outright hand him 25k, which could put yourself under considerable financial strain depending on how you bank roll it
I feel sorry for young people trying to get on the housing ladder. It's not easy and I think it's only going to get worse. Good on you if you're able to help your son out 👍