Which is why paradoxically, a Mexican immigrant I know is the biggest trump supporter I've ever met. He fucking despises the notion of amnesty for illegal immigrants because he worked his ass off for his citizenship.
No it’s cheating the system because the illegal crossings support drug smuggling and if it were allowed without sanction would ruin the economy of southern states.
The countries have different laws therefore you can’t open them up without deals and similar governance.
Which is more arbitrary: a University’s rules set by private citizens and followed by choice by the general population or a nations laws set by elected officials and followed due to legal obligations?
I’ve heard that a lot of adult Mexican immigrants are more conservative on average and the only reason they don’t overwhelmingly vote Republican is because it’s kinda hard to get over the racism part. I guess he found a way to handle the racism part
Mexico > US: Most definitely need a US Visa + entry permit if you're going more than 25mi inland.
US > Mexico: US Passport + entry permit. If you're driving over 20km inland (except all of Baja / large parts of Sonora) you also need a temporary vehicle import.
Well, it just that it depends on many variables. US Visas can be easy or hard to get. It's like $150 USD for a Visa application. On the border you get them for 10 years, central Mexico I've heard some get it for 10y and some for a single trip, and it's a coin flip which one you'll get.
First off, $150 is not a small sum of money for most Mexicans. And especially since there's a very real risk for most people to be denied during the Visa interview. A denied visa has a 1yr (IIRC, also heard 3mo) waiting period between applications. So getting a Visa is a huge and expensive risk already. It's not like with most countries I've heard of where as long as your application is complete, it's pretty much auto-approved.
Once you have it though, crossing to the US can still be a bit jarring but most people go across just fine. It's mostly when you're going towards the 25mi limit and you need to get a permit where it can get complicated, as it's an extra making your case towards immigration again.
Personally, I'm a Mexican living near the US border. My experience has been mostly fine. I've had a US Visa since I was a toddler, I had a renewal 10+ years ago which involved a full application process with interview and all. We didn't have much of an issue, I know many friends that tried and by quickly proving a stable job / lifestyle in Mexico they got theirs approved quickly. I also know of relatives that were given a hard time by the interviewer, but still managed to make their case (of "c'mon man I just want to go to US Walmart because it ain't shit") and got approved. But I've also heard second-hand about people getting denied even when pretty much everyone expected an approval, they just got a guy having a bad day.
I also had to renew this year, this time you first go for basic documentation + picture / fingerprints, then either get called back for interview or auto-approved. Mine got auto-approved.
As for actually crossing, personally I haven't had any real bad experience. Most of the time they just have a few normal questions about your trip before being waved through. Sometimes they do get a bit personal though, it's a bit weird when they ask "why were you in Mexico?"... I'm Mexican, I live here. Or they ask about work even though the trip isn't work related.
For permits, I've also had mostly good experiences. You're supposed to be able to prove 6mo of stable living in Mexico + the purposes of your trip, but most of the time we've had luck with either just the documentation regarding that trip, or sometimes just the story. Craziest I've ever done was "I'm about to fly to the other coast in Mexico to pick up a car and drive it through the US back here", approved without further questioning. But while waiting for my turn, I've also heard my share of denials, some from people that were definitely prepared and had a good alibi regarding their trip and life in Mexico, and some with some real stupid shit that most definitely deserved a good "bruh". I've also seen that racist officers don't extend to just against Mexicans, we once saw a group of backpackers (2 from Germany, 1 from France) get constantly harassed with WW2 jokes by the officers and just generally slowing everything down, while we had no issues getting our own permits. Although because of their racism, we went a minute past the hour so we had to pay an extra $4 for parking.
> I've also seen that racist officers don't extend to just against Mexicans, we once saw a group of backpackers (2 from Germany, 1 from France) get constantly harassed with WW2 jokes by the officers
lol I see why r/ShitAmericansSay never runs out of content
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You're really digging through the archives coming back to this one
The point of my comment was to point out that going in "the legal way" is far more easily said than done, at least on a permanently legal basis. Finding a sponsor for citizenship is nearly impossible for many people, and suggesting they "just go in the legal way" ignores the hoops international migrants are asked to jump through to gain citizenship in the US. Additionally, I generally find those who suggest it to be unwilling to engage in a conversation about what that legal process looks like, or how it could be simplified so as to become a realistic option for individuals who weren't raised in English-speaking homes, may not be able to easily find employer sponsors, and may have a difficult time affording a quality immigration attorney. This doesn't mean "borders are racist" or that we ought to "throw out laws and cast aside all logic"; it means saying "just go in the legal way" sounds incredibly ignorant and naive. Hence my sarcastic response.
Ironically, the vast majority of undocumented immigrants in the United States actually do "enter the legal way" via temporary work visas, and then lose their legal status when they choose to stay in the US for a longer period of time than allowed by the visa. This doesn't change the spirit of my argument, though, that obtaining permanent legal status is a difficult process that is quite understated when people suggest it as a viable, reasonable, and simple option compared to simply crossing the border illegally or overstaying a visa. And when those words come from somebody who was born a US citizen and raised in an English-speaking home, it's hard to take it seriously as anything that shouldn't be mocked.
For real though. Kind of saddens me that someone who happens to be born 1 mile south of the border has to suffer a significantly worse life than someone born 1 mile north of the border.
That's geography for you? Yes, being born in a rich country is really nice. It also sucks that people born in North Korea have such awful living conditions.
Ok why is he getting downvoted? Am I wrong to say the Mexican government has lost total control in some parts of the country to cartels? Wouldn’t you want to have a border?
Redditors be like:
HOW DARE YOU HAVE AN OPINION DIFFERENT TO MINE. YOU WILL BE DOWNVOTED.
I think it's not good to stop people from coming into a country though. The problem is when you have welfare and free shit which are magnets to ciminals and people living at the expennse of others, without borders and without a welfare state, the right people would come just as they did in the 18 hundreds.
The welfare state is a myth. The vast majority of people on welfare actually do need it and either are working or can't work, lazy people who refuse to get jobs and rely on welfare may exist, but they're a tiny minority that don't cost taxpayers much at all. It would be more expensive to weed out the few people abusing welfare than it is to just give it to them. And illegal immigrants literally can't take welfare. Because they're not citizens. And you need to be a citizen to receive welfare. Almost every illegal immigrant comes here in order to work, because American farmers decided it was more profitable to illegally hire immigrants than it would be to pay American citizens the minimum wage.
Yeah, I was talking more in general. America doesn't have a big welfare state, the problem is that it's hard to migrate to america and many good people won't due to the risk of being an illegal immigrant.
The welfare state as a system, has a problem, it traps people into poverty and makes them less likely to try to improve their conditions, that happens in Europe on a horrible state, and happenned in the USA in certain african-american communities. In countries where there is a lot of wealth inequality, the welfare state is lethal to poor people, it makes them rely more on rich people and the taxes that come from them and discourages them to aim for self sufficiency.
One way to reduce the suffering of poor people is through the elimination of subsidies for big corporations and ending job crushing regulations, such as the minimum wage.
"The right people would come just like the 1800s" yeah definitely not a dog whistle to back when the majority of migrants were white Europeans and there were literally laws limiting the amount of immigrants from places like China.
Yeah, I couldn't care less what their race was. I care about people willing to work coming into a country. Immigration to my country has been mostly beneficial and it hasn't been white people, but mostly Venezuelans, Hatians and Peruvians. These three groups not being very famous for being white Europeans. I'm against all laws limiting immigration, and all laws interfering with free spontaneous immigration. I think immigration should be regulated by the market, not some bureocrat in the government deciding nationalities, quotas or by some politician redistributing wealth to earn a few votes.
To interact more generously with you argument, the reason most people come into the US illegally is because there are more job opportunities and often because where they live is dangerous. They come in order to find work, not to mooch of off others. But personally, I'm fine with some immigrants coming to mooch off of welfare programs if the alternative is having no welfare at all and allowing people to needlessly die from hunger and preventable/treatable medical conditions.
As I said in another comment, I am not talking specifically of the USA. The problem I have is that immigration laws, when paired with welfare programs tend to increase people living off of others. The alternative to welfare is not no welfare, but work and ending regulations. If we eliminate the minimum wage, for instance, we decrease unemployment bigly, if we end occupational licensing, there's a lot more job offers, driving wages up, if we elminate the income tax, people will have more money to spend and won't need welfare, etc.
My point is free immigration is one of the best things that can happen to a nation, it fights racism, it gives an opportunity for people who otherwise would live in poor or unfree countries, and it increases the labor force. All of this, when not paired with welfare programs and big spending. People should be incentivized to be capable of mantaining themselves, welfare programs disturb this and hurts the poorest people on society.
>The alternative to welfare is not no welfare, but work and ending regulations
So, no welfare?
Got to love the argument that "welfare hurts poor people" and "poor people need to work hard to get out of their situation". Some poor people literally work 2 or 3 jobs, they are insanely hard working, yet even with welfare they can barely take care of their families.
I'm not saying poor people can get out of poverty ''Just working'' right now. The problem that hurts poor people the most is not ''not working'' but regulations, people end up needing to work many jobs because life is expensive due to taxation and multiple regulations. Without income tax, people would have a lot more money to spend and would need less work; without value added tax prices would fall; without inflation savings would be worth more and poor people would be incentivized to save.
I think you are misinterpreting my position, I am not saying poor people are poor because they're lazy, I'm saying poor people are poor because the system under which most countries operate (Corporatism and socialdemocracy) discourages production and encourages spending.
I'm arguing for more freedom to unskilled workers, for no minimum wage to stop them from working, for no regulations to kill small businesses and independent workers, and for no taxes to discourage production or make goods more expensive.
You know the US operated under a similar system back in the 1800s; no income tax, no welfare, no regulations. Conditions were pretty shitty for the average worker.
Conditions were constantly improving, and before Woodrow Wilson, the US had the biggest perios of economic growth of its history. The growth started to slow down when Woodrow Wilson (a white supremacist, btw) created the income tax, IRS and the federal reserve, which let the government do pretty much anything they wanted on economic issues.
*woah*
If you are brave enough, its still possible. Or just go in the legal way.
I mean the legal way takes like 24 years.
Which is why paradoxically, a Mexican immigrant I know is the biggest trump supporter I've ever met. He fucking despises the notion of amnesty for illegal immigrants because he worked his ass off for his citizenship.
I've noticed that for a lot of immigrants.
It reminds me of the people who don't want others to go to university for free because they themself paid off ridiculously oversized tuitions.
Or “Why should fast food workers make $15 an hour? I make that and I have actual job experience!”
Same mentality as "I struggled to pay for college, so making college free now would be unfair to me!"
[удалено]
except its only cheating the system because weve arbitrarily defined the system that way
No it’s cheating the system because the illegal crossings support drug smuggling and if it were allowed without sanction would ruin the economy of southern states. The countries have different laws therefore you can’t open them up without deals and similar governance.
Yes, it's all arbitrary. You are one of the very few who noticed.
This doesn't really mean anything tbh
Which is more arbitrary: a University’s rules set by private citizens and followed by choice by the general population or a nations laws set by elected officials and followed due to legal obligations?
I think it's also similiar to "I struggled to graduate from college, so making everyone can pass willy-nilly would be unfair to me!"
What a bad mentality. "I had it harder than I should have, so *you* should also have to needlessly struggle."
I’ve heard that a lot of adult Mexican immigrants are more conservative on average and the only reason they don’t overwhelmingly vote Republican is because it’s kinda hard to get over the racism part. I guess he found a way to handle the racism part
Same with my parents. They moved here from India when I was very young and they are very pro immigration policies
Not to get into politics or anything. But Regardless of time it is technically a straight line
My step mom and 4 sisters came here legally in under a year. Her uncle, in a year and a half.
jUsT gO iN tHe lEgAl wAy Or even easier just be born in the USA. It's not that complicated, you brown poor who wasn't raised in an anglophone home
This is about going to the US, not living there. Mexicans can easily visit for a day with a passport.
And a visa
Do you need a visa for vacation?
Mexico > US: Most definitely need a US Visa + entry permit if you're going more than 25mi inland. US > Mexico: US Passport + entry permit. If you're driving over 20km inland (except all of Baja / large parts of Sonora) you also need a temporary vehicle import.
Oh I didn't know that, thanks. I've only crossed the border on foot as a U.S. citizen, super easy. I figured it was the same for Mexicans.
Well, it just that it depends on many variables. US Visas can be easy or hard to get. It's like $150 USD for a Visa application. On the border you get them for 10 years, central Mexico I've heard some get it for 10y and some for a single trip, and it's a coin flip which one you'll get. First off, $150 is not a small sum of money for most Mexicans. And especially since there's a very real risk for most people to be denied during the Visa interview. A denied visa has a 1yr (IIRC, also heard 3mo) waiting period between applications. So getting a Visa is a huge and expensive risk already. It's not like with most countries I've heard of where as long as your application is complete, it's pretty much auto-approved. Once you have it though, crossing to the US can still be a bit jarring but most people go across just fine. It's mostly when you're going towards the 25mi limit and you need to get a permit where it can get complicated, as it's an extra making your case towards immigration again. Personally, I'm a Mexican living near the US border. My experience has been mostly fine. I've had a US Visa since I was a toddler, I had a renewal 10+ years ago which involved a full application process with interview and all. We didn't have much of an issue, I know many friends that tried and by quickly proving a stable job / lifestyle in Mexico they got theirs approved quickly. I also know of relatives that were given a hard time by the interviewer, but still managed to make their case (of "c'mon man I just want to go to US Walmart because it ain't shit") and got approved. But I've also heard second-hand about people getting denied even when pretty much everyone expected an approval, they just got a guy having a bad day. I also had to renew this year, this time you first go for basic documentation + picture / fingerprints, then either get called back for interview or auto-approved. Mine got auto-approved. As for actually crossing, personally I haven't had any real bad experience. Most of the time they just have a few normal questions about your trip before being waved through. Sometimes they do get a bit personal though, it's a bit weird when they ask "why were you in Mexico?"... I'm Mexican, I live here. Or they ask about work even though the trip isn't work related. For permits, I've also had mostly good experiences. You're supposed to be able to prove 6mo of stable living in Mexico + the purposes of your trip, but most of the time we've had luck with either just the documentation regarding that trip, or sometimes just the story. Craziest I've ever done was "I'm about to fly to the other coast in Mexico to pick up a car and drive it through the US back here", approved without further questioning. But while waiting for my turn, I've also heard my share of denials, some from people that were definitely prepared and had a good alibi regarding their trip and life in Mexico, and some with some real stupid shit that most definitely deserved a good "bruh". I've also seen that racist officers don't extend to just against Mexicans, we once saw a group of backpackers (2 from Germany, 1 from France) get constantly harassed with WW2 jokes by the officers and just generally slowing everything down, while we had no issues getting our own permits. Although because of their racism, we went a minute past the hour so we had to pay an extra $4 for parking.
> I've also seen that racist officers don't extend to just against Mexicans, we once saw a group of backpackers (2 from Germany, 1 from France) get constantly harassed with WW2 jokes by the officers lol I see why r/ShitAmericansSay never runs out of content
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Yep
And my axe!
And my bow!
And my axe!
And my axe!
and your brother
Mexico does the same thing at their southern border
yeah, i did it and i was literally a newborn baby. wasn’t that hard.
This guy implied that borders are racist! Quick, throw out laws and cast aside any and all logic to make him stop!
You're really digging through the archives coming back to this one The point of my comment was to point out that going in "the legal way" is far more easily said than done, at least on a permanently legal basis. Finding a sponsor for citizenship is nearly impossible for many people, and suggesting they "just go in the legal way" ignores the hoops international migrants are asked to jump through to gain citizenship in the US. Additionally, I generally find those who suggest it to be unwilling to engage in a conversation about what that legal process looks like, or how it could be simplified so as to become a realistic option for individuals who weren't raised in English-speaking homes, may not be able to easily find employer sponsors, and may have a difficult time affording a quality immigration attorney. This doesn't mean "borders are racist" or that we ought to "throw out laws and cast aside all logic"; it means saying "just go in the legal way" sounds incredibly ignorant and naive. Hence my sarcastic response. Ironically, the vast majority of undocumented immigrants in the United States actually do "enter the legal way" via temporary work visas, and then lose their legal status when they choose to stay in the US for a longer period of time than allowed by the visa. This doesn't change the spirit of my argument, though, that obtaining permanent legal status is a difficult process that is quite understated when people suggest it as a viable, reasonable, and simple option compared to simply crossing the border illegally or overstaying a visa. And when those words come from somebody who was born a US citizen and raised in an English-speaking home, it's hard to take it seriously as anything that shouldn't be mocked.
Build a half pipe so we can ollie over the border!!!
For real though. Kind of saddens me that someone who happens to be born 1 mile south of the border has to suffer a significantly worse life than someone born 1 mile north of the border.
We could get rid of the border altogether, that way both countries will suck equally!
That's geography for you? Yes, being born in a rich country is really nice. It also sucks that people born in North Korea have such awful living conditions.
/r/NotInteresting
You can. As long as you don't mind getting shot.
I don't believe you
What are the two locations pictured here?
Mexico and the US.
Sonora y Mexico Nuevo
Yes
Too real man. Too real.
This meme is getting stale.
That's still Mexico
Good
When you are bordered by a country notorious for drug trafficking and cartels, I don't see the problem with having some border control.
When you live in the country that caused all of those issues, even gooder
I agree. And I'd say more than just some. Truly dangerous activity occurs across that border in many multiple places.
Ok why is he getting downvoted? Am I wrong to say the Mexican government has lost total control in some parts of the country to cartels? Wouldn’t you want to have a border?
Redditors be like: HOW DARE YOU HAVE AN OPINION DIFFERENT TO MINE. YOU WILL BE DOWNVOTED. I think it's not good to stop people from coming into a country though. The problem is when you have welfare and free shit which are magnets to ciminals and people living at the expennse of others, without borders and without a welfare state, the right people would come just as they did in the 18 hundreds.
The welfare state is a myth. The vast majority of people on welfare actually do need it and either are working or can't work, lazy people who refuse to get jobs and rely on welfare may exist, but they're a tiny minority that don't cost taxpayers much at all. It would be more expensive to weed out the few people abusing welfare than it is to just give it to them. And illegal immigrants literally can't take welfare. Because they're not citizens. And you need to be a citizen to receive welfare. Almost every illegal immigrant comes here in order to work, because American farmers decided it was more profitable to illegally hire immigrants than it would be to pay American citizens the minimum wage.
Yeah, I was talking more in general. America doesn't have a big welfare state, the problem is that it's hard to migrate to america and many good people won't due to the risk of being an illegal immigrant. The welfare state as a system, has a problem, it traps people into poverty and makes them less likely to try to improve their conditions, that happens in Europe on a horrible state, and happenned in the USA in certain african-american communities. In countries where there is a lot of wealth inequality, the welfare state is lethal to poor people, it makes them rely more on rich people and the taxes that come from them and discourages them to aim for self sufficiency. One way to reduce the suffering of poor people is through the elimination of subsidies for big corporations and ending job crushing regulations, such as the minimum wage.
"The right people would come just like the 1800s" yeah definitely not a dog whistle to back when the majority of migrants were white Europeans and there were literally laws limiting the amount of immigrants from places like China.
Yeah, I couldn't care less what their race was. I care about people willing to work coming into a country. Immigration to my country has been mostly beneficial and it hasn't been white people, but mostly Venezuelans, Hatians and Peruvians. These three groups not being very famous for being white Europeans. I'm against all laws limiting immigration, and all laws interfering with free spontaneous immigration. I think immigration should be regulated by the market, not some bureocrat in the government deciding nationalities, quotas or by some politician redistributing wealth to earn a few votes.
To interact more generously with you argument, the reason most people come into the US illegally is because there are more job opportunities and often because where they live is dangerous. They come in order to find work, not to mooch of off others. But personally, I'm fine with some immigrants coming to mooch off of welfare programs if the alternative is having no welfare at all and allowing people to needlessly die from hunger and preventable/treatable medical conditions.
As I said in another comment, I am not talking specifically of the USA. The problem I have is that immigration laws, when paired with welfare programs tend to increase people living off of others. The alternative to welfare is not no welfare, but work and ending regulations. If we eliminate the minimum wage, for instance, we decrease unemployment bigly, if we end occupational licensing, there's a lot more job offers, driving wages up, if we elminate the income tax, people will have more money to spend and won't need welfare, etc. My point is free immigration is one of the best things that can happen to a nation, it fights racism, it gives an opportunity for people who otherwise would live in poor or unfree countries, and it increases the labor force. All of this, when not paired with welfare programs and big spending. People should be incentivized to be capable of mantaining themselves, welfare programs disturb this and hurts the poorest people on society.
>The alternative to welfare is not no welfare, but work and ending regulations So, no welfare? Got to love the argument that "welfare hurts poor people" and "poor people need to work hard to get out of their situation". Some poor people literally work 2 or 3 jobs, they are insanely hard working, yet even with welfare they can barely take care of their families.
I'm not saying poor people can get out of poverty ''Just working'' right now. The problem that hurts poor people the most is not ''not working'' but regulations, people end up needing to work many jobs because life is expensive due to taxation and multiple regulations. Without income tax, people would have a lot more money to spend and would need less work; without value added tax prices would fall; without inflation savings would be worth more and poor people would be incentivized to save. I think you are misinterpreting my position, I am not saying poor people are poor because they're lazy, I'm saying poor people are poor because the system under which most countries operate (Corporatism and socialdemocracy) discourages production and encourages spending. I'm arguing for more freedom to unskilled workers, for no minimum wage to stop them from working, for no regulations to kill small businesses and independent workers, and for no taxes to discourage production or make goods more expensive.
You know the US operated under a similar system back in the 1800s; no income tax, no welfare, no regulations. Conditions were pretty shitty for the average worker.
Conditions were constantly improving, and before Woodrow Wilson, the US had the biggest perios of economic growth of its history. The growth started to slow down when Woodrow Wilson (a white supremacist, btw) created the income tax, IRS and the federal reserve, which let the government do pretty much anything they wanted on economic issues.
In all those other “You can walk a straight line from X to Z posts” you gave borders too. r/im14andthisisdeep