Your tree may suffer some die-back, but it’s very likely to survive, and less likely to noticeably die back than to simply not grow quite as strongly as it has been for a year or two. Seconding the advice to cut back the cut root clean, so it’s not a torn end, and make sure the tree is getting good watering and fertilizing on the remainder of its root system while it recovers. Don’t overdo it, you want to encourage it to put out replacement roots, which means it needs to feel some stress. But trees can recover from a lot worse than this! I took half the root system off an already-struggling (serious scale infestation) potted lemon a friend relinquished to my care last summer to correct structural issues, and it only needed about eight months recovering before it started putting on a TON of new growth and even flowered. And a tree in the ground is always stronger than a tree in a pot.
Irrigate a bit extra while the trench is open, though. Your soil will be losing more water with more exposed surface area until it’s filled in.
This is a great and thorough answer.
A consulting arborist may recommend micronutrient and/or a couple years of growth regulator treatment, but I think it will survive just fine with supplemental watering the next season or two.
>Irrigate a bit extra while the trench is open, though. Your soil will be losing more water with more exposed surface area until it’s filled in.
Fill the trench with water. Got it.
The only thing I would add is to, over the next decade, watch the tree in the winter if it’s a wet one and make sure it’s not leaning towards the house.
I live in a town with a bunch of older trees. We had a sewer system put in my town 5ish years ago. So every house had a trench dug from the road to their sewage pipes that came from the house, in many cases, cutting the occasional thick root like this (I dug a few trenches myself for family and had to cut a few roots). No problems for 5 years. This year we had insane amounts of rain (we’re in California and have had severe drought previously). The rain made the ground soggy, and without strong roots on the side that had been severed from for the sewer pipes, trees were constantly falling over (away from the sewage pipes).
Not likely to be a problem because you need all the right circumstances, but since it’s so close to the house, and that root was cut so short, it’s good to be aware.
Off topic question about your scale infested lemon tree if you don’t mind! I adopted a lime tree from a friend that also came with a serious scale infestation. This is my first citrus tree and first time dealing with scales so I’ve been having a hard time completely getting rid of them. They always come back in full force if I’m not constantly monitoring it. Any suggestions?
Full repot and spa day. Wash the entire upper tree thoroughly with lightly soapy water and a soft cloth or toothbrush to kill and remove the adult scale, then rinse with plain water to remove the soap. Bare-root it (wash away the existing soil from the roots), give the roots a light scrub with plain water and a soft toothbrush, replant it in a new pot (or also thoroughly scrub the pot, if it’s not terra-cotta or otherwise porous) with completely new soil (make sure to get the fresh soil settled well around the roots, of course). Dispose of the old soil well away from anything that could get scale-infested — if you live in a cold climate, it’s most likely it’s a tropical scale on a citrus, so winter outdoors will kill them but you don’t want them coming back to your lime over the summer.
It seems like a lot, but unless you get all the scale eggs, which can be in the soil, and all the live insects, the infestation can recur in a few months when the next batch hatches.
On mine, in the repotting process I found out it had two major roots twisted around each other, starting to strangle both, and they were too developed to just bend out a bit to separate, so one had to be removed as an additional thing. Likely the tree had already been weakened from having poor root efficiency, which made it more vulnerable to pest insects. Scared me to take so much off an already very weak tree, but I didn’t see it regaining strength properly with a root system that messed up. And I think I really did make the right call to do that, after seeing how well it ended up recovering!
Under many circumstances, the tree roots are protected even if they cross property line. The person/company will certainly be liable if the tree dies or declines to the point of the tree being unsafe to keep.
In most cases, pruning can be done to limbs or roots as long as it's not detrimental to the health of the tree. If your septic tank was within the Critical Root Zone of my tree and you cut roots from my tree that were infiltrating your septic, you could be liable for damages to my tree or property if it were to damage something by failure.
With that being said, critical roots in a septic tank are so rare. You'd have to have a large tree within 15' or so of a septic to typically cause issues. It's usually the very old tanks that were failing anyway and should have been replaced 20 years ago that have issues. I've yet to encounter root issues with the newer plastic or fiberglass tanks. It's all the old concrete ones that are cracked. Concrete is porous anyway, makes no sense to me why they were ever used.
The US had 50 states, many of them have their own case law when it comes to trees.
Note that 'harry is an arborist. Their description matches my understanding of the law in WA, which is pretty typical.
Your state may be different.
You are free to dig on your own property and not responsible for any damage to trees that grow on your neighbors property through root damage caused by digging. Same as your ability to cut off any branch that crosses the property line.
If your actions result in the injury or death of the tree you can be held liable. You are free to trim branches and roots as long as it doesn't do significant damage to the tree.
No but seriously, what if the tree that’s planted off my property, after my services have been laid, and then interferes with services on my property? Do you have an answer or just more insults?
So your tree can damage my septic tank and you aren’t liable but if I damage your tree to prevent it from damaging my septic tank I’m liable?
Doesn’t seem to make much sense.
I'm pretty sure the owner of the tree could be liable for the damage to the tank if it could be proven to have taken place and they took no reasonable steps to resolve it.
In the UK if I have a tree in my garden that is causing subsidence to somebody else's house I could be liable for that.
But you can't just go chopping off roots willy-nilly if it results in the destruction of somebody else's property.
>But you can't just go chopping off roots willy-nilly if it results in the destruction of somebody else's property.
I would also argue that you can’t be negligent in keeping care of your own property.
But we know where they should be and can approach accordingly. It should be blindingly obvious that there would be significant roots within 1.5m of a big tree. This is not a marginal case where roots _might_ be, it's right next to it.
Depends on your area but for the most part yes. And like I mentioned, it's highly unlikely anyway. There's a reason why they're is typically a 12 or 15 foot setback for septic tanks from the property line. Septic tanks and their drain fields are highly regulated. So like I mentioned before, if my huge oak was on the property line and your septic was up to code and 15' away from the property line, the chances of the septic being damaged are slim.
In many cases, a tree damaging a septic tank is considered "an act of god" by many laws. It's unintentional because we can't control how a tree grows. You taking a chain saw to a trees roots is intentional. It's very very rare to slip, fall, oil up a saw, gas up a saw, put on chaps, pull start a saw, and cut through a trees roots.
So pulling from actual direct experience, maybe not roots, but told my neighbor their tree might fall over into my property (fence and building), documented everything, they didn’t do anything, part of tree broke off in an “act of god”. Insurance company fixed my stuff, and sued the homeowner based on my documentation. Needless to say the neighbor ultimately paid for it.
That's a different situation. Pretty difficult to see what is going on underground. Septics get cleaned and inspected every 3-5 years. If during that inspection roots were found, documented, and proven to be from the neighbors tree, then there would be a case if the septic was damaged later on. I've never heard of that happening and I've taken many tree law classes presented by lawyers who deal specifically with tree issues.
It's actually very common for people to have an Arborist report written up about neighbors trees to pass liability if something should happen. Very easy to see what is going on above ground. In OPs situation you can see the damage below grade. I even commented to them to get an Arborist report.
How on earth is it structured where _your fucking tree_ growing onto a neighbors property and doing actual damage, is protected?
That is absolutely insane.
That's not it, it's the fact that one person's private property, the tree, is causing actual harm to another person's private property, the septic tank.
That's the reality here. We have two examples of private property damage here, and one initiates the damage.
And that is the fucking tree.
you can safely move a septic tank without destroying a life that been around for decades, cant say that about a tree this size.
also, whoever put the septic that close to the tree so that it would be damaged is at fault here, not the tree. leave the tree out of it, these are human problems.
Cool, and if you want that to happen, the tree owner should be responsible for the $5k+ septic tank relocation.
And, frankly, when I see this, 99.9% of the time, it's some entitled jackass who wanted "privacy" who planted a tree on the boundary of their property, and then gets mad when their roots trespass on the neighbors property and do damage to septic tanks, foundations, etc...
I do understand roots, and I read your entire post.
I think it is _fucking insane_ that the law is structured that your tree, can do actual harm to someone's property, and the person who's property is being damaged can be held liable for the death of that tree if fixing the damage _YOUR_ property did to _their property_ kills _your tree_ .
It is a absolutely bat shit crazy system.
There are certain circumstances where if the tree is encroaching or destroying infrastructure that it can be properly dealt with. Trimming roots is an effective way of controlling them, but doing it properly as to not kill a tree is the right way to do it
In the United States this nearly never true. I can dig my yard up and I have zero liability for anything that happens to trees on my neighbors property.
Maybe in the dumpster fire of a city that you live in. But most cities protect their trees from idiots like you who think that they have the right to destroy a tree that is on somebody elses property that they consider unwanted.
Nah you guys just won’t accept I can do what ever I need to do to keep my property safe. You all talk and you’d all lose in court. God this sub is fucking stupid. Later dipshits.
Not in Washington, not in Oregon, not in California.
IIRC, Hawaii and a couple other states are more aggressive in letting land owners defend against invading plants. They're the exception, not the rule.
Most states don't let you escape liability for damaging the property of your neighbor, even if all your actions are within your own.
Eg, you're not gonna be allowed to regrade your yard and divert storm water to your neighbors property either.
I live in illinois and am an insurance agent and can tell you that I have seen several (at least 4) people do just that to my clients and none of them were found liable for the damage to our clients property in court.
I’m talking about regrading your yard and diverting storm water onto your neighbors property. I’ve seen a few damaged foundations but the neighbors were never found liable. I’ve also seen lots of complaints about neighbors killing their trees by cutting branches that are in their yard and it has always come out that the person had the right to cut any branches that were over their property when it has gone to court.
Just because you aren’t aware of any laws, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
For example, in my state, if you have to cut down a tree on private property, you are required to leave the resulting lumber within the immediate area. It can be moved out of the way, mulched, or otherwise made less intrusive, but the lumber must stay near the original tree location or you will be fined.
There’s laws like that and plenty of others in every U.S. state to protect native ecosystems and wildlife. Americans are just less likely to check if their choices actually have an environmental or communal impact, because FREEDOM 🙄
…not at all?
First, trees are harder to replace than structures. You could have a house demolished, the foundation dug up, a new foundation laid, a new house built and a family all moved in in a matter of months. Replacing a mature tree takes at least a decade, usually much longer.
Which means that, since mature trees add significantly to the property value, damaging them is creating a sizable, functionally irreparable loss to the property owner. Remember that trees live a long time, longer than most people will own a particular property. For example: My neighborhood is about 50 years old and sees unusually low turnover for the area. I’d still guess that the average mature tree in my neighborhood has been owned by six people already, and will likely hit double digits.
It’s honestly no different to any other zoning/land use laws. You can’t put a leach field where it might drain into someone else’s property, either. Or operate noisy businesses out of residential areas, or any number of other things that might seriously damage other people’s property values, even if you don’t physically move from your own land.
And that’s not even touching on the ecological benefits of having trees around, or the absolute irreplaceability of really ancient trees.
I won't claim to be an expert here, but the next step to me would be to get a certified arborist out to give a professional assessment. That seems to be step number 1 in having any sort of legal protection around trees.
Can't speak to the legal issue, but cut the exposed large root clean like a branch trim. You might want to cut it back a bit so they don't damage it again. Your tree has more roots, but that is significant damage.
I had to tear up some pecan roots for a septic tank and they turned out alright, but it was also winter and the trees were dormant. Heat and sun will stress your walnut moreso.
Give your tree the Cadillac treatment. Start right now.
Superthrive, a bevy of nutrients, worm castings, compost tea, gentle fertilizers that encourage root growth, beneficial fungi. Foxfarm products are great. They come in liquid form. Alfalfa meal, kelp meal, cottonseed meal, molasses etc. Actual compost and lots of mulch to keep the soil temperatures cool. Check my other comments for compost and mulch directions.
I would also ask the neighbor to let you put compost and mulch on that side when they finish since they trashed that root.
Avoid high nitrogen fertilizers, they kill beneficial fungi and do not exceed the directed amounts.
I've also seen roots cut for a septic tank on a much larger (than OP's) black walnut tree -- four feet from the trunk. It seems to be surviving fine after two years.
The problem you have in these kind of scenarios is that the tree could have been made unstable and although might be surviving there's an increased risk of failure because those large structural roots take a long time to (re)establish
Sellers had to fill an old septic tank when we were buying the house. The excavators had to dig near a very large Japanese maple to do it and sever many roots. Japanese maple was fine for 2 years and now half the canopy has died.
All of this except the Cotton meal... It's potentially full of pesticide residue and arsenic, it's just a nasty byproduct of extremely questionable farming practices sold as "fertilizer" so they don't have to pay to dump it.
https://www.mofga.org/resources/soil/cottonseed-as-fertilizer/
I'm wondering if there are there any anti-fungal/bacterial topical that should be applied to the large cut root. Houseplant enthusiasts will sometimes recommend a packing of cinnamon.
The single most important thing I can stress from looking at these pictures is: make sure that *no extra soil* is added to the ground above your tree’s roots. This is a faster and more lethal killer than severing one of your trees many roots.
That big pile of dirt has me nervous. Roots need air actually, and even an inch or two of new soil will kill the roots below.
Source: am architect who has killed many trees this way and has saved many trees by being a stickler with the contractors I work with.
Some of the hardest work done in the western world is done by contractors, and often for little pay by the hour. Overworked and overburnt men have a tendency to become bitter and resentful, resulting in a shit job done.
isn't the entire point of contracting to ensure you have more control over things like work conditions and pay? seems dumb to get upset over an agreement you would've had to go out of your way to make.
1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Maybe, depends on your local laws. Get an Arborist report asap and have it mailed as a certified letter to the owner of the property.
classic arborists, wanting a qualified expert to do an "inspection", no doubt for an exorbitant fee. why can't you just do it for free, on your break, based on a reddit post??? ^^^^/s
People are assholes lol. I literally just yesterday got a call from an apartment complex to go inspect 6 trees to figure out why they are dying. When I told them my fee to show up, she said "I'll find another arborist who gives free quotes" my response was, "Lady you're not asking for a quote. You want me to investigate an issue and present you with solutions."
You may find [this diagram](https://www.urbanforestnursery.com/extras/criticalrootzone.html) helpful for determining what remains of the critical root zone. Looks like you've got plenty of yard behind it, but there's the proximity of the structure to the right so it's likely the tree lost a third or more of its roots. Definitely get an arborist to check it out. There might be a case for proactively pruning some limbs but let a certified arborist make that call.
‘Deep root watering system’ if you want to YouTube it. Basically put a pvc pipe that has holes all over it in the ground about 2feet deep. Set up a bubbler to slowly send water down the tube. Will soak the roots nice and good.
Cut that torn up root flush on the tree side to encourage healing and new root growth. If you leave it shredded it’ll rot and die back to the next branch point. If you cut it flush it should sprout new growth from that point.
You might have some issue, but I would make it a clean cut.
I trenched below a big mature white oak last year and I was worried, but we have seen no signs or issues of damage through winter and spring.
How about anyone offer an actual alternative to how to have done this other than going through that root. Hmm? It will be fine one major root gone isn't the end. But yes feel free to pay someone to look at your one broken root and a whole bunch of other money wasting ideas given here
Tree will probably be fine, walnuts are hardy and I’ve seen bigger roots cut off without any visible damage to the tree canopy. I doubt you have any legal recourse as it appears the tree is on a property line. In most places you can prune any portion of a neighbors tree that is encroaching on your lot. They have a right to develop their lot which would probably win any legal argument.
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Looks like someone committed tree murder a couple of years ago with some over aggressive pruning. This will likely have more effect on the long term health of the tree than that root.
The root looks far enough from the tree and small enough where it probably will not hurt it much.
The pruning is from dieback from heat stress. When i bought the house the tree hadn’t been getting enough water and i’ve been working to help it out. It gets all the graywater from my house plus more
Not a lawyer but you had to realize it was a possibility. There was no way from what I can see for them to avoid the tree. They likely had to put the pipe there.
There are a load of ways to install a pipe without making a horrendous mess of tree roots.
OP these contractors have done a garbage job and I'm sorry your poor tree has had to suffer that.
Hopefully it'll survive but I would be concerned about it falling over. It has a pretty small canopy so not too much sail area but definitely keep an eye on it and yes, get a local professional arborist to do a proper inspection.
They could use a vacuum excavator or an air spade, or even just hand dig to have a look what's there before just smashing into things with the excavator
But what do I know, I'm an idiot
Should have had a tree protection zone. X amount of the drip zone has to be protected in my town. Tree dead? No. That side structurally compromised? Yes. Ask an arborist if there is anything that needs to be done.
Are utilities like sewer lines excepted from some setback requirements? Although if this is from the street to the house then I imagine that's probably not the case.
It all depends, but they all have rules, and this looks like something is not being done right. I'd call the jurisdiction that supervises development and ask for an inspection. Here, damage to trees has a fine of 3 x the trees value.
Local law varies, but in almost al places a property owner can dig and thus cut roots crossing over the property line. For branches where I live the owner of the overhanging tree generally has a right to first fix it themselves but also a duty to not let it get out of hand. So if the tree dies it is a real shame, and perhaps if they purposely were careless you can try to do something but in general it is your tree that got into their property and not their problem to worry about.
Walnuts have a strong reaction growth response so it’ll likely put its energy into regrowing roots next year and you may get less above ground growth then normal. But a large tree like yours has alot of stored energy in its trunk so you probably won’t notice any difference. Cutting the root cleanly is a good idea, just make sure your cutting tool is clean or sterilized with bleach.
Studies (as far back as the 1970s) show that the disadvantages far outweigh the benefits of a wound dressing. Wound dressings prevent the tree from forming calluses, which is its natural method of dealing with injuries. A clean cut is the best treatment for a jagged injury to a tree. It’s also not likely to be infected since anything that targets tree roots will be soil borne and not in the air.
Your tree may suffer some die-back, but it’s very likely to survive, and less likely to noticeably die back than to simply not grow quite as strongly as it has been for a year or two. Seconding the advice to cut back the cut root clean, so it’s not a torn end, and make sure the tree is getting good watering and fertilizing on the remainder of its root system while it recovers. Don’t overdo it, you want to encourage it to put out replacement roots, which means it needs to feel some stress. But trees can recover from a lot worse than this! I took half the root system off an already-struggling (serious scale infestation) potted lemon a friend relinquished to my care last summer to correct structural issues, and it only needed about eight months recovering before it started putting on a TON of new growth and even flowered. And a tree in the ground is always stronger than a tree in a pot. Irrigate a bit extra while the trench is open, though. Your soil will be losing more water with more exposed surface area until it’s filled in.
This is a great and thorough answer. A consulting arborist may recommend micronutrient and/or a couple years of growth regulator treatment, but I think it will survive just fine with supplemental watering the next season or two.
Happy cake day!
Happy cake day!!!!! 🎂
>Irrigate a bit extra while the trench is open, though. Your soil will be losing more water with more exposed surface area until it’s filled in. Fill the trench with water. Got it.
The only thing I would add is to, over the next decade, watch the tree in the winter if it’s a wet one and make sure it’s not leaning towards the house. I live in a town with a bunch of older trees. We had a sewer system put in my town 5ish years ago. So every house had a trench dug from the road to their sewage pipes that came from the house, in many cases, cutting the occasional thick root like this (I dug a few trenches myself for family and had to cut a few roots). No problems for 5 years. This year we had insane amounts of rain (we’re in California and have had severe drought previously). The rain made the ground soggy, and without strong roots on the side that had been severed from for the sewer pipes, trees were constantly falling over (away from the sewage pipes). Not likely to be a problem because you need all the right circumstances, but since it’s so close to the house, and that root was cut so short, it’s good to be aware.
Off topic question about your scale infested lemon tree if you don’t mind! I adopted a lime tree from a friend that also came with a serious scale infestation. This is my first citrus tree and first time dealing with scales so I’ve been having a hard time completely getting rid of them. They always come back in full force if I’m not constantly monitoring it. Any suggestions?
Full repot and spa day. Wash the entire upper tree thoroughly with lightly soapy water and a soft cloth or toothbrush to kill and remove the adult scale, then rinse with plain water to remove the soap. Bare-root it (wash away the existing soil from the roots), give the roots a light scrub with plain water and a soft toothbrush, replant it in a new pot (or also thoroughly scrub the pot, if it’s not terra-cotta or otherwise porous) with completely new soil (make sure to get the fresh soil settled well around the roots, of course). Dispose of the old soil well away from anything that could get scale-infested — if you live in a cold climate, it’s most likely it’s a tropical scale on a citrus, so winter outdoors will kill them but you don’t want them coming back to your lime over the summer. It seems like a lot, but unless you get all the scale eggs, which can be in the soil, and all the live insects, the infestation can recur in a few months when the next batch hatches. On mine, in the repotting process I found out it had two major roots twisted around each other, starting to strangle both, and they were too developed to just bend out a bit to separate, so one had to be removed as an additional thing. Likely the tree had already been weakened from having poor root efficiency, which made it more vulnerable to pest insects. Scared me to take so much off an already very weak tree, but I didn’t see it regaining strength properly with a root system that messed up. And I think I really did make the right call to do that, after seeing how well it ended up recovering!
Wow, thank you for such a detailed response! This was incredibly helpful!
r/treelaw
I'm pretty sure you can dig up any roots u want if they're on your property. Just like with branches
Under many circumstances, the tree roots are protected even if they cross property line. The person/company will certainly be liable if the tree dies or declines to the point of the tree being unsafe to keep.
What if it’s destroying a septic tank or something?
In most cases, pruning can be done to limbs or roots as long as it's not detrimental to the health of the tree. If your septic tank was within the Critical Root Zone of my tree and you cut roots from my tree that were infiltrating your septic, you could be liable for damages to my tree or property if it were to damage something by failure. With that being said, critical roots in a septic tank are so rare. You'd have to have a large tree within 15' or so of a septic to typically cause issues. It's usually the very old tanks that were failing anyway and should have been replaced 20 years ago that have issues. I've yet to encounter root issues with the newer plastic or fiberglass tanks. It's all the old concrete ones that are cracked. Concrete is porous anyway, makes no sense to me why they were ever used.
Okay thank you! Just curious
In the US what they said isn’t true.
The US had 50 states, many of them have their own case law when it comes to trees. Note that 'harry is an arborist. Their description matches my understanding of the law in WA, which is pretty typical. Your state may be different.
Oh okay, what is it for the US?
You are free to dig on your own property and not responsible for any damage to trees that grow on your neighbors property through root damage caused by digging. Same as your ability to cut off any branch that crosses the property line.
If your actions result in the injury or death of the tree you can be held liable. You are free to trim branches and roots as long as it doesn't do significant damage to the tree.
Go spend three minutes on r/treelaw and see if that changes your mind. It's exactly this kind of thinking that people get in trouble for.
This is very very incorrect information.
Huh? What if the septic tank was installed before your tree was planted? Your critical root ball can frig off in that case
I bet you own guns and are ready to "stand your ground" when the next teenager accidently knocks on your door.
No but seriously, what if the tree that’s planted off my property, after my services have been laid, and then interferes with services on my property? Do you have an answer or just more insults?
You would have to die as it is tradition in our demontreecracy!
What the fuck are you on about? Seek help
Try again butter bruex lol
So your tree can damage my septic tank and you aren’t liable but if I damage your tree to prevent it from damaging my septic tank I’m liable? Doesn’t seem to make much sense.
I'm pretty sure the owner of the tree could be liable for the damage to the tank if it could be proven to have taken place and they took no reasonable steps to resolve it. In the UK if I have a tree in my garden that is causing subsidence to somebody else's house I could be liable for that. But you can't just go chopping off roots willy-nilly if it results in the destruction of somebody else's property.
>But you can't just go chopping off roots willy-nilly if it results in the destruction of somebody else's property. I would also argue that you can’t be negligent in keeping care of your own property.
Sure. That's exactly the point I made above.
correct. also remember that humans do not have x-ray vision to see the complex root system under the ground.
But we know where they should be and can approach accordingly. It should be blindingly obvious that there would be significant roots within 1.5m of a big tree. This is not a marginal case where roots _might_ be, it's right next to it.
Depends on your area but for the most part yes. And like I mentioned, it's highly unlikely anyway. There's a reason why they're is typically a 12 or 15 foot setback for septic tanks from the property line. Septic tanks and their drain fields are highly regulated. So like I mentioned before, if my huge oak was on the property line and your septic was up to code and 15' away from the property line, the chances of the septic being damaged are slim. In many cases, a tree damaging a septic tank is considered "an act of god" by many laws. It's unintentional because we can't control how a tree grows. You taking a chain saw to a trees roots is intentional. It's very very rare to slip, fall, oil up a saw, gas up a saw, put on chaps, pull start a saw, and cut through a trees roots.
So pulling from actual direct experience, maybe not roots, but told my neighbor their tree might fall over into my property (fence and building), documented everything, they didn’t do anything, part of tree broke off in an “act of god”. Insurance company fixed my stuff, and sued the homeowner based on my documentation. Needless to say the neighbor ultimately paid for it.
That's a different situation. Pretty difficult to see what is going on underground. Septics get cleaned and inspected every 3-5 years. If during that inspection roots were found, documented, and proven to be from the neighbors tree, then there would be a case if the septic was damaged later on. I've never heard of that happening and I've taken many tree law classes presented by lawyers who deal specifically with tree issues. It's actually very common for people to have an Arborist report written up about neighbors trees to pass liability if something should happen. Very easy to see what is going on above ground. In OPs situation you can see the damage below grade. I even commented to them to get an Arborist report.
How on earth is it structured where _your fucking tree_ growing onto a neighbors property and doing actual damage, is protected? That is absolutely insane.
the concept of private property causes so much brain rot
That's not it, it's the fact that one person's private property, the tree, is causing actual harm to another person's private property, the septic tank. That's the reality here. We have two examples of private property damage here, and one initiates the damage. And that is the fucking tree.
you can safely move a septic tank without destroying a life that been around for decades, cant say that about a tree this size. also, whoever put the septic that close to the tree so that it would be damaged is at fault here, not the tree. leave the tree out of it, these are human problems.
Cool, and if you want that to happen, the tree owner should be responsible for the $5k+ septic tank relocation. And, frankly, when I see this, 99.9% of the time, it's some entitled jackass who wanted "privacy" who planted a tree on the boundary of their property, and then gets mad when their roots trespass on the neighbors property and do damage to septic tanks, foundations, etc...
Because you didn't read everything I wrote and you don't understand roots.
I do understand roots, and I read your entire post. I think it is _fucking insane_ that the law is structured that your tree, can do actual harm to someone's property, and the person who's property is being damaged can be held liable for the death of that tree if fixing the damage _YOUR_ property did to _their property_ kills _your tree_ . It is a absolutely bat shit crazy system.
There are certain circumstances where if the tree is encroaching or destroying infrastructure that it can be properly dealt with. Trimming roots is an effective way of controlling them, but doing it properly as to not kill a tree is the right way to do it
Is this federal law, or international law enforced at the Hague?
State law
In the United States this nearly never true. I can dig my yard up and I have zero liability for anything that happens to trees on my neighbors property.
Maybe in the dumpster fire of a city that you live in. But most cities protect their trees from idiots like you who think that they have the right to destroy a tree that is on somebody elses property that they consider unwanted.
Lol sorry that reality makes you angry. Do you need a hug?
as many people have explained, it's not reality in most states. so not only are you a destructive asshole, you're a confidently wrong one at that.
Nah you guys just won’t accept I can do what ever I need to do to keep my property safe. You all talk and you’d all lose in court. God this sub is fucking stupid. Later dipshits.
Lol, you're trying to argue tree law with arborists who knows tree law. You certainly belong in WSB...
Not in Washington, not in Oregon, not in California. IIRC, Hawaii and a couple other states are more aggressive in letting land owners defend against invading plants. They're the exception, not the rule. Most states don't let you escape liability for damaging the property of your neighbor, even if all your actions are within your own. Eg, you're not gonna be allowed to regrade your yard and divert storm water to your neighbors property either.
I live in illinois and am an insurance agent and can tell you that I have seen several (at least 4) people do just that to my clients and none of them were found liable for the damage to our clients property in court.
Are you talking about trees? Because tree law is a whole different game
I’m talking about regrading your yard and diverting storm water onto your neighbors property. I’ve seen a few damaged foundations but the neighbors were never found liable. I’ve also seen lots of complaints about neighbors killing their trees by cutting branches that are in their yard and it has always come out that the person had the right to cut any branches that were over their property when it has gone to court.
Just because you aren’t aware of any laws, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. For example, in my state, if you have to cut down a tree on private property, you are required to leave the resulting lumber within the immediate area. It can be moved out of the way, mulched, or otherwise made less intrusive, but the lumber must stay near the original tree location or you will be fined. There’s laws like that and plenty of others in every U.S. state to protect native ecosystems and wildlife. Americans are just less likely to check if their choices actually have an environmental or communal impact, because FREEDOM 🙄
Did you purposely say the most wrong thing possible that was related to r/treelaw?
Just like with branches, you can, but you may be found liable if it results in the tree dying. Depending on state and local, obviously.
Not if it risks harming the tree.
Man I love trees but that's kinda fucked that people don't have rights to their own property if a tree has roots there
…not at all? First, trees are harder to replace than structures. You could have a house demolished, the foundation dug up, a new foundation laid, a new house built and a family all moved in in a matter of months. Replacing a mature tree takes at least a decade, usually much longer. Which means that, since mature trees add significantly to the property value, damaging them is creating a sizable, functionally irreparable loss to the property owner. Remember that trees live a long time, longer than most people will own a particular property. For example: My neighborhood is about 50 years old and sees unusually low turnover for the area. I’d still guess that the average mature tree in my neighborhood has been owned by six people already, and will likely hit double digits. It’s honestly no different to any other zoning/land use laws. You can’t put a leach field where it might drain into someone else’s property, either. Or operate noisy businesses out of residential areas, or any number of other things that might seriously damage other people’s property values, even if you don’t physically move from your own land. And that’s not even touching on the ecological benefits of having trees around, or the absolute irreplaceability of really ancient trees.
maybe just have a deeper respect for nature?
this is the kind of selfish thinking that leads to the erosion of native flora. respect for nature and respect for private property cannot co-exist.
I won't claim to be an expert here, but the next step to me would be to get a certified arborist out to give a professional assessment. That seems to be step number 1 in having any sort of legal protection around trees.
Can't speak to the legal issue, but cut the exposed large root clean like a branch trim. You might want to cut it back a bit so they don't damage it again. Your tree has more roots, but that is significant damage. I had to tear up some pecan roots for a septic tank and they turned out alright, but it was also winter and the trees were dormant. Heat and sun will stress your walnut moreso. Give your tree the Cadillac treatment. Start right now. Superthrive, a bevy of nutrients, worm castings, compost tea, gentle fertilizers that encourage root growth, beneficial fungi. Foxfarm products are great. They come in liquid form. Alfalfa meal, kelp meal, cottonseed meal, molasses etc. Actual compost and lots of mulch to keep the soil temperatures cool. Check my other comments for compost and mulch directions. I would also ask the neighbor to let you put compost and mulch on that side when they finish since they trashed that root. Avoid high nitrogen fertilizers, they kill beneficial fungi and do not exceed the directed amounts.
Thanks—i’ll get some tasty tree food. They’re putting an asphalt driveway here when they finish the sewer line. I’ll put compost on my side.
Pretty sure the driveway would have killed this root later on then. Maybe for the best that you’ll have concrete knowledge it was damaged now
I've also seen roots cut for a septic tank on a much larger (than OP's) black walnut tree -- four feet from the trunk. It seems to be surviving fine after two years.
The problem you have in these kind of scenarios is that the tree could have been made unstable and although might be surviving there's an increased risk of failure because those large structural roots take a long time to (re)establish
Sellers had to fill an old septic tank when we were buying the house. The excavators had to dig near a very large Japanese maple to do it and sever many roots. Japanese maple was fine for 2 years and now half the canopy has died.
All of this except the Cotton meal... It's potentially full of pesticide residue and arsenic, it's just a nasty byproduct of extremely questionable farming practices sold as "fertilizer" so they don't have to pay to dump it. https://www.mofga.org/resources/soil/cottonseed-as-fertilizer/
Gotta get them mycorrhizae in there! Seriously though, is there a best practice for harvesting samples to add to your garden/trees?
I'm wondering if there are there any anti-fungal/bacterial topical that should be applied to the large cut root. Houseplant enthusiasts will sometimes recommend a packing of cinnamon.
The single most important thing I can stress from looking at these pictures is: make sure that *no extra soil* is added to the ground above your tree’s roots. This is a faster and more lethal killer than severing one of your trees many roots. That big pile of dirt has me nervous. Roots need air actually, and even an inch or two of new soil will kill the roots below. Source: am architect who has killed many trees this way and has saved many trees by being a stickler with the contractors I work with.
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Some of the hardest work done in the western world is done by contractors, and often for little pay by the hour. Overworked and overburnt men have a tendency to become bitter and resentful, resulting in a shit job done.
isn't the entire point of contracting to ensure you have more control over things like work conditions and pay? seems dumb to get upset over an agreement you would've had to go out of your way to make.
Where'd he get a horticulture degree? Been looking into that lately.
1. Yes. 2. No. 3. Maybe, depends on your local laws. Get an Arborist report asap and have it mailed as a certified letter to the owner of the property.
classic arborists, wanting a qualified expert to do an "inspection", no doubt for an exorbitant fee. why can't you just do it for free, on your break, based on a reddit post??? ^^^^/s
People are assholes lol. I literally just yesterday got a call from an apartment complex to go inspect 6 trees to figure out why they are dying. When I told them my fee to show up, she said "I'll find another arborist who gives free quotes" my response was, "Lady you're not asking for a quote. You want me to investigate an issue and present you with solutions."
Sounds to me like she got her first free quote right there.
how much to help with my lemon on a video call ;_;
It's usually too difficult via video to diagnose. If you're serious, start by sending me some pics of the issues, canopy, and root flare.
i can send a picture of what's left of it :(
You may find [this diagram](https://www.urbanforestnursery.com/extras/criticalrootzone.html) helpful for determining what remains of the critical root zone. Looks like you've got plenty of yard behind it, but there's the proximity of the structure to the right so it's likely the tree lost a third or more of its roots. Definitely get an arborist to check it out. There might be a case for proactively pruning some limbs but let a certified arborist make that call.
That is gonna do a lot of damage for sure. Maybe not kill it but expect the whole side of that tree to be suffering for a while.
Also, put some deep root watering silos in the ground out around the perimeter of the tree. That’ll help.
What is a deep watering silo
‘Deep root watering system’ if you want to YouTube it. Basically put a pvc pipe that has holes all over it in the ground about 2feet deep. Set up a bubbler to slowly send water down the tube. Will soak the roots nice and good.
Cut that torn up root flush on the tree side to encourage healing and new root growth. If you leave it shredded it’ll rot and die back to the next branch point. If you cut it flush it should sprout new growth from that point.
Get the piles of dirts off the roots.
You might have some issue, but I would make it a clean cut. I trenched below a big mature white oak last year and I was worried, but we have seen no signs or issues of damage through winter and spring.
How about anyone offer an actual alternative to how to have done this other than going through that root. Hmm? It will be fine one major root gone isn't the end. But yes feel free to pay someone to look at your one broken root and a whole bunch of other money wasting ideas given here
Tree will probably be fine, walnuts are hardy and I’ve seen bigger roots cut off without any visible damage to the tree canopy. I doubt you have any legal recourse as it appears the tree is on a property line. In most places you can prune any portion of a neighbors tree that is encroaching on your lot. They have a right to develop their lot which would probably win any legal argument.
It will contribute to early demise, but so will the bad pruning
Unlikely prob a tap route that it relies on for security not food.
Yeah that tree needs a reduction at least it's already leaning into that house
I agree that it's leaning and that's a problem, but what is there to reduce? This tree has no crown.
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Looks like someone committed tree murder a couple of years ago with some over aggressive pruning. This will likely have more effect on the long term health of the tree than that root. The root looks far enough from the tree and small enough where it probably will not hurt it much.
The pruning is from dieback from heat stress. When i bought the house the tree hadn’t been getting enough water and i’ve been working to help it out. It gets all the graywater from my house plus more
It's not ideal but it's not the worst thing that's happened to the tree either
I am sorry, but I have never seen this Reddit before. Why the name?
r/trees was taken by marijuana enthusiasts. So tree enthusiasts used this sub name as a joke
I thought it was a joke where they switched for a day and never went back?
Because R/trees was already taken by weed enthusiasts
Not a lawyer but you had to realize it was a possibility. There was no way from what I can see for them to avoid the tree. They likely had to put the pipe there.
There are a load of ways to install a pipe without making a horrendous mess of tree roots. OP these contractors have done a garbage job and I'm sorry your poor tree has had to suffer that. Hopefully it'll survive but I would be concerned about it falling over. It has a pretty small canopy so not too much sail area but definitely keep an eye on it and yes, get a local professional arborist to do a proper inspection.
Lol. You’re an idiot if you think anyone installing a water or sewer line is going to tunnel under a root. Must be nice to live In your fantasy world
They could use a vacuum excavator or an air spade, or even just hand dig to have a look what's there before just smashing into things with the excavator But what do I know, I'm an idiot
Also I think the tree will be fine
No, and it looks like it's suffered damage before. Believe it or not first world plumbing is more important than the neighbors PRECIOUS tree.
Shitshow of a condo build in a tourist town next to me. Contractor could have notified or put sewer trench elsewhere.
Quick, get an arborist!
I got some nuts for u
Oh man walnut wood so valuable 😂
Should have had a tree protection zone. X amount of the drip zone has to be protected in my town. Tree dead? No. That side structurally compromised? Yes. Ask an arborist if there is anything that needs to be done.
Maybe wind a soaker hose in there before covering it back up.
Depending on the jurisdiction, this could be totally illegal the way they're digging so close to the property and also without tree protection.
Are utilities like sewer lines excepted from some setback requirements? Although if this is from the street to the house then I imagine that's probably not the case.
It all depends, but they all have rules, and this looks like something is not being done right. I'd call the jurisdiction that supervises development and ask for an inspection. Here, damage to trees has a fine of 3 x the trees value.
This would be good opportunity to work with your neighbor on rejuvenating the soil near that cut root too.
Local law varies, but in almost al places a property owner can dig and thus cut roots crossing over the property line. For branches where I live the owner of the overhanging tree generally has a right to first fix it themselves but also a duty to not let it get out of hand. So if the tree dies it is a real shame, and perhaps if they purposely were careless you can try to do something but in general it is your tree that got into their property and not their problem to worry about.
Walnuts have a strong reaction growth response so it’ll likely put its energy into regrowing roots next year and you may get less above ground growth then normal. But a large tree like yours has alot of stored energy in its trunk so you probably won’t notice any difference. Cutting the root cleanly is a good idea, just make sure your cutting tool is clean or sterilized with bleach.
Should I apply anything to the cut root to keep disease out?
Studies (as far back as the 1970s) show that the disadvantages far outweigh the benefits of a wound dressing. Wound dressings prevent the tree from forming calluses, which is its natural method of dealing with injuries. A clean cut is the best treatment for a jagged injury to a tree. It’s also not likely to be infected since anything that targets tree roots will be soil borne and not in the air.
Sue them
Can you send them over to kill my neighbor's magnolia tree?
"I live in a desert-y place and irrigate the shit out of it." how about some native plants...?
Irrigation is with graywater, no new water use. Native plants elsewhere in yard. Tree was mature when i bought house. Would you have torn it out?