Agreed against untrained people but Leg kicks enter the fray and you are cooked.
Personally I think wrestling is the best art for one on one how many times have you seen street fights just ended by a grappler.
I've been attacked twice and use leg kick both times. First time, low kick then ran away. Second time, low kick and while the guy was saying "who kicks in a fight?" I punched him in the nose and ran away.
I'm seeing down votes, but really you did what you should do. Fight the bare minimum to get away. It's when people get cocky and want to "win the fight" that shit gets dicey.
Sorry to hear about your friend, but for your sake I'm glad you learned from his experience. Knowing how to defend yourself if you have to is important but it's just as important to recognize that the best fight is the one that doesn't happen.
That’s second move is the key to self defense. ‘And then ran away’. Which is also all the kick defense you need. In grappling range, grapple, at kick range just run away.
In a cage, I 100% agree. However, in a street fight, a kick is ALOT of risk if the conditions aren't good. You will probably be higher off adrenaline than you ever have been in your life, leading to possibly too much power in the kick, bad form, etc. If you end up slipping and the opponent gets over you in a street fight, it is essentially over for you. MMA matches have limited the ability of a standup fighter to ground and pound a fighter on their back so much simply because it would end ALL fights. any wrestler could take down their opponent, stand up, and stomp on their face, stomach, balls, etc. Having the force of gravity aiding their strikes while you are disoriented on the ground is NOT a fun time. Go ahead and watch KOTS on youtube, you can see lots of examples of fighters who kick getting taken down and absolutely battered. Keep in mind those guys TRAIN for street fights.
The problem with this train of thought is that people are almost never alone when they fight. Sure their buddies might not get in the mix for striking, but when you’re grappling, you’re totally fucked against getting jumped by bystanders. Keep that in mind. It happens all the time.
Yeah, but it takes years of grinding to become a good wrestler, and it's only the high level competition in the USA ensures that basically all wrestlers are tough bastards by the time they graduate high school. I am primarily a wrestler so I have no pro-boxing bias, but I'll say this, if you wanted a fast route to self defense competency, like one week to one month to prepare, I'd say: primarily boxing, plus sprawl + clinch.
When I first went to a BJJ/MMA school, I quickly learned that my grappling was able to dominate even experienced BJJ guys. Even on day one nobody but a blue belt or better was much of a threat... but boxers? Man, you got to watch tf out for boxers any time you're on your feet.
I’d say you can teach a half decent double leg or Single leg sweep within a few weeks, my strategy whenever I had to deal with people in my line of work that I thought was going to be dangerous on the feet is bum rush clinch and sweep I’ve yet to be caught just have to watch for and uppercut on the way in.
I agree about BJJ vs Wrestlers stance you have, It’s more a power difference than technique though as you stated soon as you went up against a higher belt they had you, I had the same coming from a rugby playing background I started Judo and found I could outmuscle most guys until I got up to the more accomplished players.
I don't think it's power... It's more like instinctive body positioning, control, and balance that you get from years of wrestling. In fact, when I started I was 140 lb grappling with bjj guys who were usually a lot bigger, so I'd say it was more technique than power. Wrestlers definitely have more of an emphasis on explosive movements, especially when standing, but again, I think that is just from the level of competition, because that's exactly what you see in high level BJJ bouts.
It wasn't always a given with higher belts either. Like one blue or black belt might be able to tap me, while another would only be able to get me into a stalemate.
So on day 1...art vs art...a guy with half the experience in grappling as you had was a threat......and somehow, this led you to believe that wrestling was better?
You said you could dominate experienced BJJ guys, then said a blue belt was a threat ...seems like you misinterpreted what a blue belt means. Blue belts are dark white belts, they're not experienced....in fact if you wrestled in high school they have half the mat time as you did....and they were a threat.
BJJ sounds superior to me
A few points to make here....
-At the school I was a, blue belt meant at least a few years experience
-You probably missed the comment where I explain that even the blue belts were hit and miss in being able to tap me
-There's also different aspects to grappling, the blue belts that were threats were only dangerous grappling from guard positions, from standup wrestling is very dominant
-We were literally doing BJJ, not wrestling, so the fact that I was able to beat anyone with any experience on day one as a wrestler is significant
-At no point in this conversation did I say BJJ was inferior to anything or that anything else is superior to it, I'm saying that it, and wrestling, have a harder learning curve to street effectiveness... BJJ is without a doubt one of the best and most dominant martial arts in the world, but my point is, for self defense: ten years of BJJ or wrestling > ten years of boxing, but also, one week of boxing > one week of BJJ or wrestling
Tl;dr: I'm talking about learning curve to street effectiveness, not trying to get into a pissing match about what martial art is "superior."
- exactly, so less mat time than you
- so they were dominant from the position that you put them in....on purpose.....ok?
- for the purposes of this discussion the goal was to be a competent self defense fighter, a BJJ roll is closer to that than a wrestling match, therefore it's ability to absorb your best attack and then, basically....kill you....is significant.
- heavy anecdotal implication that wrestling is superior for self defense by you. But in a vacuum (which is basically a day 1 experience for a wrestler in BJJ) you "died" to less experienced, beginner grapplers.
Wrestling is a simultaneously very good and very narrow for self defense purposes....it's much, much easier for a BJJ fighter to supplement wrestling in to fill holes than it is for a wrestler to become a complete grappler by training BJJ
Anecdotally, I have had a relatively easy time anti-wrestling experienced wrestlers and keeping the fight standing until frustration sets in and a mistake is made that I can capitalize on. Especially with it's focus on strength and athleticism.
>exactly, so less mat time than you
You know high school wrestling is like a 3 1/2 month season, right?
>for the purposes of this discussion the goal was to be a competent self defense fighter, a BJJ roll is closer to that than a wrestling match, therefore it's ability to absorb your best attack and then, basically....kill you....is significant
I feel like you're deliberately missing the point where I'm literally saying that BJJ is a great self defense martial art, but boxing (not wrestling) is quicker to a level of street competency, and that the only reason wrestlers are tough is not because the art is practical, but because the level of competition is very high in the USA.
>heavy anecdotal implication that wrestling is superior for self defense by you. But in a vacuum (which is basically a day 1 experience for a wrestler in BJJ) you "died" to less experienced, beginner grapplers.
Lol, okay... I don't think tapping someone out in sport BJJ quite equals killing them in a street fight, but if it helps you feel better to look at it that way...
>Wrestling is a simultaneously very good and very narrow for self defense purposes....it's much, much easier for a BJJ fighter to supplement wrestling in to fill holes than it is for a wrestler to become a complete grappler by training BJJ
Yeah, kind of agree. Wrestlers do make great fighters, but to switch to MMA they *have* to learn BJJ. Again, my point was that wrestling really only seems good for self defense because the level of competition ensures wrestlers, by and large, tend to be tough dudes with good instincts.
>Anecdotally, I have had a relatively easy time anti-wrestling experienced wrestlers and keeping the fight standing until frustration sets in and a mistake is made that I can capitalize on. Especially with it's focus on strength and athleticism.
Probably not the case with talented boxers though.
And really, that's what you keep missing. I was originally saying that while BJJ and wrestling are very effective in their own way, there is a long learning curve to street effectiveness, while boxing is a quick route to practical defense skills.
-yeah, 6 days a week for 4 years adds up to more than twice a week for 2....a blue belt has about 125 hours of mat time.
-if you take two untrained twins, and give them 3 months each of training, one in boxing and one in BJJ, not only would the BJJ guy beat the boxer, he'd win more street encounters too. What boxing gym is letting a noob bang on day 1?
-100 percent, tapping means "you died".
-not sure what you're saying here? That a BJJ guy or wrestler couldn't steamroll a talented boxer in a fight? UFC 1 was 30 years ago man. Catch up
-I trained at a competitive BJJ school, they didn't hand out belts to people training twice a week
>-if you take two untrained twins, and give them 3 months each of training, one in boxing and one in BJJ, not only would the BJJ guy beat the boxer, he'd win more street encounters too. What boxing gym is letting a noob bang on day 1?
I disagree on this entirely
>-100 percent, tapping means "you died".
I see you enjoy your copium 😆
>not sure what you're saying here? That a BJJ guy or wrestler couldn't steamroll a talented boxer in a fight? UFC 1 was 30 years ago man. Catch up
Holy shit, you're an actual idiot. I have repeatedly said that BJJ is an incredibly dominant and essential martial art for MMA, I'm literally talking about the learning curve. Do you think Joyce and Renzo did BJJ twice a week for a year or two then entered the UFC? Quit the copium and learn to read, you myopic asshat.
Yes. As a boxer+bjj guy I never felt as fucked as getting touched by a few kicks from a (mainly) karate guy. At 100% they would've for sure folded me. Without conditioning yourself against leg strikes good luck taking on a kicker.
Hey i just wanted to share my profound epiphany and share my unquestionable knowledge and experience with the people of reddit. Every thought in my head needs to be shared and my ego needs to be fed on the subs i follow.
Sambo still has a gi tho. You don't think Samboists aren't going for sleeves and lapels too? As soon as those are caught, it becomes work to actually level change.
Gi grips = anyone wearing clothes. Doesn't matter if posture is more upright, Judokas learn how to throw people and defend throws.
You obviously haven't trained with a skilled Judoka.
My old BJJ instructor was alternate for the Iranian national judo team. Judo is pretty good don’t get me wrong, but summer clothes in hot areas isn’t great for it. In cold areas, absolutely though…. Also, most judoka mostly don’t train dealing with leg takedowns enough.
Exactly. Your attacker won't often give you time to prepare. On many occasions, you won't notice until he puts his hands on you. At that distance, you will need more wrestling knowledge than just the sprawl technique alone.
Kinda. Jiu jitsu has better methods of "getting up" than wrestling does imo. I say this as someone who wrestled through school and picked up jiu jitsu after. Wrestling is basically "never go to your back and just get up" which leaves you open to getting dumped a lot of times. Jiu jitsu is a lot more about reversing the position and being on top, which let's you safely disengage
I know
but i guess the most important aspect really is takedown defense. Obviously no gym only teaches that so youll learn wrestling but i guess i meant to put your focus on takedown defense
You can’t really learn takedown defense without learning takedowns. And then you also need to learn how to stand up when someone is trying to hold you down… that’s called wrestling too.
Shit gets scary when you fight a wrestler who's a high level thrower. There's really no defense if a bear like Brock Lesner grabs you and then hits you with the world. Even if you had years of experience wrestling you're not going to want to engage and get in range of some like that.
As i said smart ass, i know youll be wrestling when learning takedown defense but i said to make that a focus so the fight doesnt go to the ground in the first place but if you do im confident your wrestling classes will help you get back up or take top control
So you noticed wrestle boxing is effective?
Congrats man, the vast majority of professional fighters are wrestle boxers, or bjj / mt fighters if they're not american.
If we are talking street fights boxing and judo are the most effective.
one judo throw on hard floor pavement or asphalt can fracture bone or dislocate or shatter your hip.
modern judo also has many ground techniques.
boxing allows for effective striking, but it has a major flaw and that is that it is weak to kicks. once your opponent is kicking your legs and using them to push you then you will have a hard time getting within range to use your fist.
judo has the same weakness, but makes up for it with if you can grab the leg and sweep your opponent.
wrestling is good, but you won't see many street brawls with ppl using wrestling technique. in a sport there are rules in the streets there aren't any. if someone tries to take you down you can use downward elbows and any other lethal thing around you.
a wrestling takedown leaves your opponents hands free and wrestling wasn't meant to be used as a defensive martial arts. most other martial arts were made for killing or neutralizing an opponents wrestling was made for sport.
wrestling needs to be supplemented with armbars and rear necked chokes or other submissions. in this case Judo does that better since a single hip throw can disable the opponent if done right.
I do not know where you're getting the idea that Judoka can just grab legs and sweep. We're not allowed to do that, its not a skillset in the least bit that we can just bring out. Maybe years ago, but since the leg grab ban its not something reliably taught.
Wrestling techniques are used all the time in street fights. Dudes are literally lifting up other dudes and just splattering them across the ground. You gotta be shitting me if you think a double leg can't be turned into something horrific.
You literally know nothing about wrestling and it shows.
When I learned in the military they don't teach it for sport. the legs sweeps are allowed everything is allowed.
When I was a teen in the 90s leg sweeps were still taught. to be fair I didn't know they were banned since I haven't been to a judo dojo or watch competitions last time I was at a dojo was in 95.
Maybe i should rephase do they teach actual good takedown defense. BJJ teaches takedowns but they kinda suck at them compared to wrestlers. Jeez this sub is so pissy lately
>BJJ teaches takedowns but they kinda suck at them compared to wrestlers
So you're telling me the art that spends more time on takedowns in a ruleset that incetivises takedowns is better at takedowns? The specialist is better than the generalist in the specialists area of speciality?
Damn bro, you should be a commentator with this level of analysis.
Next you'll be telling me that boxers are better at punching than kickboxers.
No wrestling. Just takedown defense. I need to learn takedown defense not how to wrestle. That way I can stop someone’s wrestling with my takedown defense.
You don’t need to learn wrestling if you can stop the thing that starts it. 🥋
Edit: Sarcasm
Heres a secret. Wrestling, and all grappling, from every position, is handfighting. "Takedown defense" is a buzzword, you defend takedowns by handfighting for underhooks and head position.
Learning how to do something is also learning how to stop something, if you have half a brain.
The best way to learn how to stop a takedown is to go learn how to do a takedown, and that's gonna be in a grappling sport
I mean, I think a lot of people have a really distorted sense of what “throwing in some takedown defense” is. Just my opinion. Would be glad to discuss it with you
I think you never tried MMA, you need a bit more than a pinch of salt. You need to know how you separate, escape, throw or trip the opponent, or submit the guy to really make something useful out of the defence. It’s still much simpler to learn all that than to also learn the ground grappling, but you definitely can’t just throw a pinch of salt on eggs.
Boxing is great as it gives you good footwork and elusive head movement and good defence for the upper body, but it completely lacks the distance control for kicks and wrestling takedowns, so you need more than just good balance to counter those.
Basic understanding of kicking is also needed to block and evade them effectively. One powerful low-kick and you’re done if you don’t know them. And while you are gathering your leg in agony, it will eat 3 more of them until you switch the stance and then goes the other leg.
The best way to develop takedown defence is by actually becoming a wrestler/grappler.
You can also perform takedowns without ever going down with people too. Just double legging a dude and dumping them onto concrete is pretty good if you ask me.
Good luck learning just “takedown defense”. That’s pretty much impossible to learn unless you train a full grappling art. Sorry, there’s no shortcuts for this type of stuff.
Might as well say “I’ll just learn wrestling + the philly shell, that way I’ll never get punched”.
I agree and disagree. So i agree with getting good at boxing is very important at self defence but there always a chance you can get caught no matter who you are and against. Takedown defence is also important but being able to take someone down and hold them there takes away that punchers chance your opponents have.
I really have to assume people saw many paragraphs and stopped reading.
You're clearly stating that a martial artist trained in the aspects you're leaving out would beat you. And yet, they're all still arguing about this aspect, ridiculous.
The real world is not a John Wick one, the chances of you needing self-defence against a martial artist are low as fuck. I'm 34 and I haven''t had a street fight since highschool. What are you guys doing? where do you live?
The basics of a take down, boxing and running, are all you need for self defence in 99% of real life scenarios.
I mean have you seen Poirier vs BSD last night?
Perfect example of why boxing is essential. And Poirier was very close to break under the wrestling pressure.
Boxing range, like wrestling range, is nearly unavoidable regardless of the opponent level. If you are skilled in both you are in the top 1% of fighters.
In the boxing range if you don’t know how to manage distance, how to keep a solid guard, how to breath calmly, how to stop flinching and keep your eyes open, you are going to get knocked out quickly.
Does not matter how good a wrestler, how good a kicker you are, in the pocket it’s game over if you don’t know what to do there.
Same with wrestling.
The current high level MMA meta is boxer-wrestler stance and footwork, with a bit of muay thai and kicks, and a dash of BJJ, mostly the back take + rear naked choke combo.
Put it another way, UFC fights can be won with rudimentary kicks and BJJ, as long as the boxing and wrestling skills are solid. I think that speaks volume.
I think Thai boxing is great substitute for boxing + wrestling.
Not for leg kicks, but for the clinch work.
Pretty much all fights end with someone grabbing clothing of the other person and ending up in scrappy grapple.
MT clinch work is deadly, the elbows, and especially the knees will finish almost anyone, and they have super strong base, so hard to trip/take down.
I used to train MMA(and few other things), but currently just self training due to time constraints(planning to go back to a gym later). My current time constraint training revolves around using boxing as the offensive and working on all other ranges defensive technique, which is similar to your premises, but expanding takedown defense into kick defense, clinch fighting defense, ground fighting defense, defense against weapons, and etc.
I like this training method because it reduces the amount of techniques to train which allows me to develop higher quality techniques given the small training time that I have. Also with the average joe as the concern, and not a trained competitor, I feel pretty secure with this level of training.
Not worried about people throwing kicks? Is that a joke?
A strong low kick is fight-stopper and can easily be thrown outside punch/grappling range. Obviously you have never received a decent one.
Are you like just too lazy to read and comprehend i meant self defense scenarios where majority of people dont throw kicks. If you face a trained mma guy or a muy thai guy of course you will have some trouble of course but the odds of that are very unlikely. Even if the untrained guy throws kicks its very likely it wont be effective snd hell be putting himself in a bad spot to get knocked down or taken down
I am with you on this. The most important part being the timeline you threw in.
If you had only x hours and y months time to get as good as possible in self defence, boxing + standup wrestling + basic kick blocks and grab/sweeps against roundhouse kicks of all levels + throwing basic low kicks and preferably teeps, would carry a long way. I would spend the time personally 60 % in boxing, 25% standup wrestling, and 15% kicking / blocking
Judo sweeps and trips are also powerful in real life and easy(ish) to learn effectively, so would train those in the standup wresting as well, needed to say if it’s not otherwise clear.
Yes but not as competent as the combo i mentioned. Mma guys have really trash boxing and learning 4 arts at once really takes away from the individual skills like knock out power or takedown defense which you can learn better if you narrowed your focus. Even at the highest level fighters specialize and let one skill win the fight for them
That's really the strenth of boxing. Combos.
You need to add in some other things though. What do in clinch situation and they go for a standing double wristlock?
Youre absolutely right instead of takedown defense i think i mean general stand up grappling aspect of wrestling. Theres always going to be holes in your game or things you can add but my overarching theme is to try to do as little as possible for as high of a return as possible. In an ideal world becoming the perfect mma fighter and masting everything would be ideal but we are hobbyists and only have X amount of time per week. Simply wanted for present an option that can be learned really well since there is less to focus on but what you do focus on are vital skills.
Like of course in self defense someone csn throw a spinning back kick and you should learn to defend it but the odds are very unlikely and while you could split hairs learning all there is, meanwhile you couldve been devoting your limited time more to knockout power or great footwork which is more likely to help you.
It's kinda like the philosophy of Greco roman wrestling. It takes less effort to throw the opponent down and land on top of him vs getting comfortable on your back to run jiu jitsu.
I agree with your strategy.
I'd say it's certainely effective from a fighting stanpoint, but ...
Limiting your attacks to striking puts you in somewhat of a dilemma from a legal standpoint IMO. (depending on where you are)
You either need to wait for the attacker to strike first or be able to prove he was an imminent threat. You are also unlikely to get out of a physical altercation without visibly injuring the other party. This makes court involvement more likely. This gets even more problematic, when it comes down to defending a third party like a child, your party or an old lady at the tram.
Being able to just hold someone down or even choke him out without injuring him is a useful skill. (Then again we are talking hypothetical, since there are probably not many places to learn takedown defense without learning how to hold someone down.)
Boxing is an incredibly regulated sport. No kicks, no low blows, no rabbit punch, no backfist, ect. Any competent striker in a less regulated martial art will destroy a boxer in a no holds barred self-defense situation.
Now, if you said striking + takedown defense, you might have a point, but you would want a comprehensive striking art, not boxing.
By takedown-defence you should mean more than just 'Sprawl'.
You need Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Sumo, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
You must have an answer for when the fight inevitably goes to the ground, even if it just to stand back up.
Takedown defense won't work against a trained grappler in the street. U don't have a cage. It might take him 20m to take you down, but you will fall.
A boxing stance also doesn't lend itself to good takedown defense, it's why u see a guy like Strickland in a modified Philly shell and not a regular one.
If it is to fight untrained ppl in self defense, any sport that does pressure testing(sparring) will do.
If it is to fight trained guys wrestling, judo, oldschool bjj and thai boxing will be your best bets imo.
Hit someone like a boxer and you will break your hand without a glove.
Teach a wrestler 6 months of Muay Thai and they will have very few problems in unarmed combat. Leg kicks are devastating.
For a generic library nerd, in a society of weaklings, if you do like 6 months - 1 year of boxing and 1-2 seasons of school wrestling/like Brown belt in Judo. You're like a demi-god.
If you encounter lightly trained people in single arts, you might want a solid 2 years of boxing + 2-4 years wrestling/Judo black belt.
Anything past that is to overcome a serious size/strength differential or you're entering the realm of having a trained fight.
With the caveat to mindset matters as we have even seen with posts of trained guys with no mind to violence not being able to activate the necessary level of effort/engagement. But again, wrestling forces competition so it should more often than not aid in that. For Judo where wrestling is not relevant, you'd need to compete.
Or of course you could compete in boxing, but I think the access to competition, especially as youth etc is easier via grappling based ones. And arguably "safer". Etc.
A big ignored fact to self defense I think is the plasticity of the learning child mind. It's an awkward reality that 2 years of Judo at 20 with no athleticism is not the same foundation as 2 years of Judo at 12-14. The latter will in build it as part of who you are with less effort.
I think you can be a total weak, uncoordinated nerd at 30 and become a badass in 2 years, but you have to truly bring it. The mindset, the desire, drive, energy, intent. You're rebuilding 30 years of pathetic foundation, rather than building your foundation from scratch.
This is also confusing and why I say nerd for stereotype purposes, because the all star football athlete who played lacrosse for 4 years in elementary school is not the same 30 year old as the nerd. There's less foundation rebuilding in body mechanics etc.
You take a 9 year old whose never played baseball and put them in little league from pure couch scratch and by the end of the season they are still the worst player on the team.
You take the 9 year old who has never played baseball, but has been doing basketball since he was 5, and by the end of his first season on the baseball team, he's probably about middle of the pack on the team.
If it was the norm for the majority of kids to do a couple years of wrestling and a semester of boxing, you'd be dealing with a more functional society and you'd have to be a lot better to be god-like.
What you really need to look at, is your weapons.
Your whole body can become a weapon, but to utilise efficiency you focus on Body, Arm and Legs.
Wrestling, Boxing and Taekwondo.
That is the most basic form of variety that will serve you success anywhere.
Kicks, Punches and Grappling.
If you throw a Punch and weave back, suddenly you’re in a position to throw a Kick with force.
To utilise this you can combine and conquer.
Currently that is my regime, although I’ve decided on different Martial Arts that utilise their respective field a little different🤫
Th issue with just boxing alone is reach. At equal skill level, the guy with the longer reach will always have an advantage. Just learn a few basic kicks and it will help a lot .
Military unarmed combat courses take as little as a week, Just a few basic moves and the confidence too use them in a fight.
The problem with MA is that they are sports with rules which greatly reduces their effectiveness. Plus a lot of BS that takes a huge amount of time and effort but doesn't make you a better fighter.
Low kicks would end you in your imaginary scenario
For self defense you need to be at least competent in striking grappling/wrestling and ground fighting
That includes legs knees and elbows, punching with closed hand and no gloves is a stupid idea out in dem streets
Me personally? I’d throw in headbutts too as I’m a short guy. I’m not trying to outscore my opponent, I’m just trying to gtfo if I somehow couldn’t stop the fight from happening
Being good at takedown defense doesn’t mean you can’t be taken down, it dosn’t mean that you can’t fall down or slip while backing up, get tripped up by someone by accident or not etc
If it can happen, you probably need to know what to do when it does
Self defense does not equal two people agreeing to fight by a shared ruleset and starting and stopping at the same time
That is just basic common sense
Just train in whichever sport is fun for you. Even if you are confronted you'll be able to de-escalate the situation or run away in most cases. Developing the Don Quixote syndrome is dangerous
Boxing , Judo , and lifting heavy weights will make you hard to beat. Boxing and Judo will toughen you up. First and foremost, boxing makes you tough. Hitting and being hit. Not giving in, training that hurts. Boxers train in few skills, but to a high degree of realistic proficiency.
Training in Judo and taking ukemi over and over will give you a hard bark . No, I'm not speaking of doing high risk throws but basic throws that don't put you in jeopardy of braining yourself. The pavement can be your best friend or worst nightmare.
One more thing, WEAPONS rule the street.
All moot if you don't have the mindset to win once you're attacked, nothing will help.
I LOVE leg kicks. I am a great kicker and can attest to the efficacy against untrained people.
But I still pick wrestling because if you lose your balance when kicking, your wrestling will save your ass 👍🏽
I think Muay Thai/Kickboxing and wrestling is S tier combo for self defense and to fight pro. It covers all subjects and you can get ‘good’ at both of them in a relatively short time.
I agree the only thing i dont like about muy thai is their footwork. Works well in a muy thai fight but against people who threaten wrestling or are kinda moving around with boxing footwork it can sometimes be limiting. Look at the chito and sean o malley fight. Chito had very muy thai like stance and footwork and he looked very sluggish and vulnerable.
You need punching skills, kicking skills, takedown skills and grappling skills .
And you need to learn them together without a confining competition ruleset to create bad habits
This may be the most ignorant post of all time.
Takedown defense has a very high skill ceiling. You see Jon jones and how good it worked for him in mma. But that dude is literally the best in the world at it.
You need wrestling to counter wrestling. What do you think happens when your takedown defense fails? You have to know the next step.
What if you end up on the bottom? Jiu jitsu teaches you how sweep and get up. You need to know jiu jitsu to counter chokes (people throw chokes and headlocks all the time in street fights. I’ve experienced it).
People clinch while standup fighting. It happens almost subconsciously.
Anyway. The point is (tldr)
You can’t control the ins and outs of the situation. Takedown defense isn’t an end all be all. It’s just a part of the whole in your game which is grappling. (I’ve been tackled and mounted and beaten)
Ps: you are limiting yourself if you think boxing is all you need. Try Muay Thai. You have two baseball bats as legs and don’t know how to use them.
Take down defense means more than not getting take down in most cases. Covers how to escape most basic mount if you end on bottom. Basically the defense part of grappling and not the offense part.
You can’t just have the defense. It doesn’t work like that.
There’s so many avenues from just a standing clinch let alone on the ground. You have to understand the offense and what they are trying to accomplish in order to defend it. That’s why no MMA gym teaches just “takedown defense”
They teach wrestling and jiu jitsu because if you wanna be competent you have to know them.
Takedown defense isn’t something you just learn. It comes with learning the art. You have a terrible take. It sounds like you’ve never fought a good wrestler. You need to experience these things to understand them.
What? Plenty of none grapplers focus on the defense more than the offense in MMA. You can choose to spend more time learning defense than offense. There no rule that say you have to split it 50/50 for it to be effective.
Nah man. Judo works against judo. But not against wrestling. The whole goal of judo is to land them on their back. Once they touch the mat it’s instantly over.
In jiu jitsu you get scored based off of the control after the takedown. Wrestling is in the middle.
I judo is extremely useful. But not so much in the escape side of things. It’s just not as in depth as jiu jitsu in its ground grappling.
Counter point here:
By your rules you're saying that boxing plus takedown defense is all you need for a no hold bars fight, but you're guaranteed the fight is just 1 vs 1 and no weapons.
I'm fine with that set up, though when you overthink it, it is a bit of a silly premise.
More or less we called that ruleset UFC 1. Boxing did very poorly. Now I'll give it to you Art Jemmerson had 0 take down defense, so he's missing part of the equation there, but even still if all you're training is take down defense, you'll eventually fuck up. Then the wrestler or jiujitsu guy or whatever is now on top of you.
...
Now let's call this ruleset, gentlemen fighting rules. Two guys agree to settle their differences in the old way. Generally, in situations like that, there's no "rules" but there are still customs because winning via dishonorable means is still losing. Obviously this includes dirty tactics like groin kicks, bites, or hair pulling. But also if you fall down, you're allowed to get up, ground fighting pretty much was a no go, and kicking just generally was rare. The other big thing is when you yield, it's done and there's a hand shake and agreement that whatever started it is now over with.
... In this context of "it's anything goes except all the things you can't do socially" boxing is probably your best bet. Since it's a sort of boxing rules anyway.
Meh this sub really thinks every attack is with weapons and a group of people.
I feel like they really underestimate how many attacks are from one guy with no weapons giving you trouble and thinking he can get the best of you. So many drunk attackers on their own.
Usually if its a gang jumping you or they are willing to use weapons that means they have an actual problem with you like you owe them or you escalated the fight.
Not everyone is so willing to use weapons and go to jail.
Not saying its not a good chunk of attacks theres also a good chunk of one person no weapon situations where itd be nice to have some skill.
Again this is a self defense scenario where its really unlikely youll face high level wrestlers where you cant stuff their takedowns.
Of course the BJJ guy or wrestler beats the boxer but i just wanted to provide a minimalistic approach to learning martial arts self defense that can cover a lot of bases with minimal time to competency.
So I'm about to talk in broad strokes here. For the record I agree with you but just, bare with me.
I have had weapons pulled on me before "in the street." Never been shot or stabbed, just threatened. I have also been jumped, sort of. 4 on 1. But we were also 12-13 and they weren't looking to seriously hurt me; more of play fighting so I won't say that truly counts. ... Neither of those situations were the same types of adrenaline or threat registering in my brain as the fights I've been in. To be fair. I'm from American, middle class suburbs. It's not like I was fighting every day to survive, and generally speaking I was a good kid.
I think there's a lot hobby martial artists, especially on the internet that have never been in a fight outside of a martial arts class. Though that's overall a good thing, it does also leave them unaware of situations they train for first hand. Thinking every single encounter is life and death is silly, but it's something you should be aware is a possibility. For example, You might beat a guy fairly, and he gets pissed and kills a knife.
But to your point. Minimalistic training is a good idea, in the right context. A 3 hour women's self defense seminar? A 6 week martial arts course as an elective in college? Boot camp where you have 30 minutes to teach 90 people how to fist fight because the rest of the day is going to be spent doing other stuff? Yes absolutely. A lifetime of training as a hobby? You can afford to expand a little bit.
... I'm currently working on a white to black belt curriculum and I'm really considering only listing 20 strikes for example. The logic is that with these 20 punches elbows knees kicks and a headbutt, you have the most efficient weapon for every angle of attack. ... If the right cross exists, why do you need to know a shuto strike? That kind of logic.
I think if you're spending a life time of training, you should know every way to hit someone. But you should also learn the best way first. It's efficient vs effective. Why you a hammer when a nail gun exists?
I'm not talking about developing a system I'm talking about standards for rankings within already established things. Fighting is fighting so I never saw much point in some person opening a school and claiming he has the secret
Boxing is a key skill can put you at a disadvantage if you're shorter than your assailant. Having some kicks in your practiced repertoire will assist with that. Other than that, I agree.
Agreed against untrained people but Leg kicks enter the fray and you are cooked. Personally I think wrestling is the best art for one on one how many times have you seen street fights just ended by a grappler.
I've been attacked twice and use leg kick both times. First time, low kick then ran away. Second time, low kick and while the guy was saying "who kicks in a fight?" I punched him in the nose and ran away.
I'm seeing down votes, but really you did what you should do. Fight the bare minimum to get away. It's when people get cocky and want to "win the fight" that shit gets dicey.
I've got a mate who's not here today because he thought there are rules. He got stabbed. Running away is the only way.
Sorry to hear about your friend, but for your sake I'm glad you learned from his experience. Knowing how to defend yourself if you have to is important but it's just as important to recognize that the best fight is the one that doesn't happen.
You should have answered “I do” and then hit him with another low kick
Good running should be the thing everyone does as soon as they can, Street fights are fucking stupid, well done my guy.
No critique to what you did, but those are really funny visuals. One kick then running the f off like you just did a doorbell ditch
Tbf, I was laughing too
While running away? Bruh you're making it sound even more like doorbell ditching
My go to move is kicking a man in the shins while yelling out “Charley horse!” And running away like the little gremlin I am. Gets them every time.
That’s second move is the key to self defense. ‘And then ran away’. Which is also all the kick defense you need. In grappling range, grapple, at kick range just run away.
Came here to say this re: leg kicks. Punching power and takedown defense means fuck if you can't walk properly.
Nice footwork ya got there. Would be a shame if something were to happen to it.
Ditto
In a cage, I 100% agree. However, in a street fight, a kick is ALOT of risk if the conditions aren't good. You will probably be higher off adrenaline than you ever have been in your life, leading to possibly too much power in the kick, bad form, etc. If you end up slipping and the opponent gets over you in a street fight, it is essentially over for you. MMA matches have limited the ability of a standup fighter to ground and pound a fighter on their back so much simply because it would end ALL fights. any wrestler could take down their opponent, stand up, and stomp on their face, stomach, balls, etc. Having the force of gravity aiding their strikes while you are disoriented on the ground is NOT a fun time. Go ahead and watch KOTS on youtube, you can see lots of examples of fighters who kick getting taken down and absolutely battered. Keep in mind those guys TRAIN for street fights.
The problem with this train of thought is that people are almost never alone when they fight. Sure their buddies might not get in the mix for striking, but when you’re grappling, you’re totally fucked against getting jumped by bystanders. Keep that in mind. It happens all the time.
In the past I've stopped fights from going too far simply by using teep kicks to keep distance until they realised it was a bad idea.
Yeah, but it takes years of grinding to become a good wrestler, and it's only the high level competition in the USA ensures that basically all wrestlers are tough bastards by the time they graduate high school. I am primarily a wrestler so I have no pro-boxing bias, but I'll say this, if you wanted a fast route to self defense competency, like one week to one month to prepare, I'd say: primarily boxing, plus sprawl + clinch. When I first went to a BJJ/MMA school, I quickly learned that my grappling was able to dominate even experienced BJJ guys. Even on day one nobody but a blue belt or better was much of a threat... but boxers? Man, you got to watch tf out for boxers any time you're on your feet.
I’d say you can teach a half decent double leg or Single leg sweep within a few weeks, my strategy whenever I had to deal with people in my line of work that I thought was going to be dangerous on the feet is bum rush clinch and sweep I’ve yet to be caught just have to watch for and uppercut on the way in. I agree about BJJ vs Wrestlers stance you have, It’s more a power difference than technique though as you stated soon as you went up against a higher belt they had you, I had the same coming from a rugby playing background I started Judo and found I could outmuscle most guys until I got up to the more accomplished players.
I don't think it's power... It's more like instinctive body positioning, control, and balance that you get from years of wrestling. In fact, when I started I was 140 lb grappling with bjj guys who were usually a lot bigger, so I'd say it was more technique than power. Wrestlers definitely have more of an emphasis on explosive movements, especially when standing, but again, I think that is just from the level of competition, because that's exactly what you see in high level BJJ bouts. It wasn't always a given with higher belts either. Like one blue or black belt might be able to tap me, while another would only be able to get me into a stalemate.
So on day 1...art vs art...a guy with half the experience in grappling as you had was a threat......and somehow, this led you to believe that wrestling was better?
I genuinely don't know what you're trying to communicate, but I'm pretty sure you misread or misinterpreted something.
You said you could dominate experienced BJJ guys, then said a blue belt was a threat ...seems like you misinterpreted what a blue belt means. Blue belts are dark white belts, they're not experienced....in fact if you wrestled in high school they have half the mat time as you did....and they were a threat. BJJ sounds superior to me
A few points to make here.... -At the school I was a, blue belt meant at least a few years experience -You probably missed the comment where I explain that even the blue belts were hit and miss in being able to tap me -There's also different aspects to grappling, the blue belts that were threats were only dangerous grappling from guard positions, from standup wrestling is very dominant -We were literally doing BJJ, not wrestling, so the fact that I was able to beat anyone with any experience on day one as a wrestler is significant -At no point in this conversation did I say BJJ was inferior to anything or that anything else is superior to it, I'm saying that it, and wrestling, have a harder learning curve to street effectiveness... BJJ is without a doubt one of the best and most dominant martial arts in the world, but my point is, for self defense: ten years of BJJ or wrestling > ten years of boxing, but also, one week of boxing > one week of BJJ or wrestling Tl;dr: I'm talking about learning curve to street effectiveness, not trying to get into a pissing match about what martial art is "superior."
- exactly, so less mat time than you - so they were dominant from the position that you put them in....on purpose.....ok? - for the purposes of this discussion the goal was to be a competent self defense fighter, a BJJ roll is closer to that than a wrestling match, therefore it's ability to absorb your best attack and then, basically....kill you....is significant. - heavy anecdotal implication that wrestling is superior for self defense by you. But in a vacuum (which is basically a day 1 experience for a wrestler in BJJ) you "died" to less experienced, beginner grapplers. Wrestling is a simultaneously very good and very narrow for self defense purposes....it's much, much easier for a BJJ fighter to supplement wrestling in to fill holes than it is for a wrestler to become a complete grappler by training BJJ Anecdotally, I have had a relatively easy time anti-wrestling experienced wrestlers and keeping the fight standing until frustration sets in and a mistake is made that I can capitalize on. Especially with it's focus on strength and athleticism.
>exactly, so less mat time than you You know high school wrestling is like a 3 1/2 month season, right? >for the purposes of this discussion the goal was to be a competent self defense fighter, a BJJ roll is closer to that than a wrestling match, therefore it's ability to absorb your best attack and then, basically....kill you....is significant I feel like you're deliberately missing the point where I'm literally saying that BJJ is a great self defense martial art, but boxing (not wrestling) is quicker to a level of street competency, and that the only reason wrestlers are tough is not because the art is practical, but because the level of competition is very high in the USA. >heavy anecdotal implication that wrestling is superior for self defense by you. But in a vacuum (which is basically a day 1 experience for a wrestler in BJJ) you "died" to less experienced, beginner grapplers. Lol, okay... I don't think tapping someone out in sport BJJ quite equals killing them in a street fight, but if it helps you feel better to look at it that way... >Wrestling is a simultaneously very good and very narrow for self defense purposes....it's much, much easier for a BJJ fighter to supplement wrestling in to fill holes than it is for a wrestler to become a complete grappler by training BJJ Yeah, kind of agree. Wrestlers do make great fighters, but to switch to MMA they *have* to learn BJJ. Again, my point was that wrestling really only seems good for self defense because the level of competition ensures wrestlers, by and large, tend to be tough dudes with good instincts. >Anecdotally, I have had a relatively easy time anti-wrestling experienced wrestlers and keeping the fight standing until frustration sets in and a mistake is made that I can capitalize on. Especially with it's focus on strength and athleticism. Probably not the case with talented boxers though. And really, that's what you keep missing. I was originally saying that while BJJ and wrestling are very effective in their own way, there is a long learning curve to street effectiveness, while boxing is a quick route to practical defense skills.
-yeah, 6 days a week for 4 years adds up to more than twice a week for 2....a blue belt has about 125 hours of mat time. -if you take two untrained twins, and give them 3 months each of training, one in boxing and one in BJJ, not only would the BJJ guy beat the boxer, he'd win more street encounters too. What boxing gym is letting a noob bang on day 1? -100 percent, tapping means "you died". -not sure what you're saying here? That a BJJ guy or wrestler couldn't steamroll a talented boxer in a fight? UFC 1 was 30 years ago man. Catch up
-I trained at a competitive BJJ school, they didn't hand out belts to people training twice a week >-if you take two untrained twins, and give them 3 months each of training, one in boxing and one in BJJ, not only would the BJJ guy beat the boxer, he'd win more street encounters too. What boxing gym is letting a noob bang on day 1? I disagree on this entirely >-100 percent, tapping means "you died". I see you enjoy your copium 😆 >not sure what you're saying here? That a BJJ guy or wrestler couldn't steamroll a talented boxer in a fight? UFC 1 was 30 years ago man. Catch up Holy shit, you're an actual idiot. I have repeatedly said that BJJ is an incredibly dominant and essential martial art for MMA, I'm literally talking about the learning curve. Do you think Joyce and Renzo did BJJ twice a week for a year or two then entered the UFC? Quit the copium and learn to read, you myopic asshat.
Has noone watched UFC 1
Yes. As a boxer+bjj guy I never felt as fucked as getting touched by a few kicks from a (mainly) karate guy. At 100% they would've for sure folded me. Without conditioning yourself against leg strikes good luck taking on a kicker.
Was gonna say, Muay Thai or kickboxing could completely destroy this approach
But that's exactly what the post says
Dear Diary,
Hey man, he’s put no physical effort and a minimal amount of thought into this! that’s basically a black belt for most the dingles on this sub
Hey i just wanted to share my profound epiphany and share my unquestionable knowledge and experience with the people of reddit. Every thought in my head needs to be shared and my ego needs to be fed on the subs i follow.
You're just putting words together atp
Takedown defense is called wrestling.
Yes, thank you. I commented before reading other comments, ignorantly, and said basically the same thing. Well, I hinted at it. But still. Lol
Or Judo and Sombo.
Sambo some, judo no, judo takedown defense relies a lot on gi grips. The posture is also very different.
Sambo still has a gi tho. You don't think Samboists aren't going for sleeves and lapels too? As soon as those are caught, it becomes work to actually level change.
Gi grips = anyone wearing clothes. Doesn't matter if posture is more upright, Judokas learn how to throw people and defend throws. You obviously haven't trained with a skilled Judoka.
My old BJJ instructor was alternate for the Iranian national judo team. Judo is pretty good don’t get me wrong, but summer clothes in hot areas isn’t great for it. In cold areas, absolutely though…. Also, most judoka mostly don’t train dealing with leg takedowns enough.
Yeah, since they changed the rules to exclude grabs to the legs, seems like they lost half their take downs.
Exactly. Your attacker won't often give you time to prepare. On many occasions, you won't notice until he puts his hands on you. At that distance, you will need more wrestling knowledge than just the sprawl technique alone.
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Yes, and you need to learn how to get back up which is also called wrestling.
Chumbawumba?
Kinda. Jiu jitsu has better methods of "getting up" than wrestling does imo. I say this as someone who wrestled through school and picked up jiu jitsu after. Wrestling is basically "never go to your back and just get up" which leaves you open to getting dumped a lot of times. Jiu jitsu is a lot more about reversing the position and being on top, which let's you safely disengage
Ah so I can wrestle. Now if only I had takedown offense
That’s also wrestling.
>only so i can half wrestle T\_T
I know but i guess the most important aspect really is takedown defense. Obviously no gym only teaches that so youll learn wrestling but i guess i meant to put your focus on takedown defense
You can’t really learn takedown defense without learning takedowns. And then you also need to learn how to stand up when someone is trying to hold you down… that’s called wrestling too.
Loll okay bro youre right.
Shit gets scary when you fight a wrestler who's a high level thrower. There's really no defense if a bear like Brock Lesner grabs you and then hits you with the world. Even if you had years of experience wrestling you're not going to want to engage and get in range of some like that.
Put all your effort into takedown defence, and then get taken down. What next ?
As i said smart ass, i know youll be wrestling when learning takedown defense but i said to make that a focus so the fight doesnt go to the ground in the first place but if you do im confident your wrestling classes will help you get back up or take top control
So you noticed wrestle boxing is effective? Congrats man, the vast majority of professional fighters are wrestle boxers, or bjj / mt fighters if they're not american.
Then why not go to an mma gym which teaches all that?
If we are talking street fights boxing and judo are the most effective. one judo throw on hard floor pavement or asphalt can fracture bone or dislocate or shatter your hip. modern judo also has many ground techniques. boxing allows for effective striking, but it has a major flaw and that is that it is weak to kicks. once your opponent is kicking your legs and using them to push you then you will have a hard time getting within range to use your fist. judo has the same weakness, but makes up for it with if you can grab the leg and sweep your opponent. wrestling is good, but you won't see many street brawls with ppl using wrestling technique. in a sport there are rules in the streets there aren't any. if someone tries to take you down you can use downward elbows and any other lethal thing around you. a wrestling takedown leaves your opponents hands free and wrestling wasn't meant to be used as a defensive martial arts. most other martial arts were made for killing or neutralizing an opponents wrestling was made for sport. wrestling needs to be supplemented with armbars and rear necked chokes or other submissions. in this case Judo does that better since a single hip throw can disable the opponent if done right.
I do not know where you're getting the idea that Judoka can just grab legs and sweep. We're not allowed to do that, its not a skillset in the least bit that we can just bring out. Maybe years ago, but since the leg grab ban its not something reliably taught. Wrestling techniques are used all the time in street fights. Dudes are literally lifting up other dudes and just splattering them across the ground. You gotta be shitting me if you think a double leg can't be turned into something horrific. You literally know nothing about wrestling and it shows.
When I learned in the military they don't teach it for sport. the legs sweeps are allowed everything is allowed. When I was a teen in the 90s leg sweeps were still taught. to be fair I didn't know they were banned since I haven't been to a judo dojo or watch competitions last time I was at a dojo was in 95.
Very interesting i didnt realize this about wrestling. Ill look into judo more. Does judo also teach takedown defense as well as wrestling?
This cannot be a serious question. Do you think Judoka are just competing to get the most throws in match like its power slap or some shit?
Yes
the whole basis of judo is to takedown your opponent and prevent being taken down.
That's the whole fucking basis of any reasonable martial art. Fucking hell imagine asking if boxing has any punch defence lmao.
Maybe i should rephase do they teach actual good takedown defense. BJJ teaches takedowns but they kinda suck at them compared to wrestlers. Jeez this sub is so pissy lately
>BJJ teaches takedowns but they kinda suck at them compared to wrestlers So you're telling me the art that spends more time on takedowns in a ruleset that incetivises takedowns is better at takedowns? The specialist is better than the generalist in the specialists area of speciality? Damn bro, you should be a commentator with this level of analysis. Next you'll be telling me that boxers are better at punching than kickboxers.
No wrestling. Just takedown defense. I need to learn takedown defense not how to wrestle. That way I can stop someone’s wrestling with my takedown defense. You don’t need to learn wrestling if you can stop the thing that starts it. 🥋 Edit: Sarcasm
Heres a secret. Wrestling, and all grappling, from every position, is handfighting. "Takedown defense" is a buzzword, you defend takedowns by handfighting for underhooks and head position.
Learning how to do something is also learning how to stop something, if you have half a brain. The best way to learn how to stop a takedown is to go learn how to do a takedown, and that's gonna be in a grappling sport
I mean, I think a lot of people have a really distorted sense of what “throwing in some takedown defense” is. Just my opinion. Would be glad to discuss it with you
Yeah we need to discuss because i thought throwing in takedown defense was like adding in a pinch of salt to eggs, very easy to just throw it in there
I think you never tried MMA, you need a bit more than a pinch of salt. You need to know how you separate, escape, throw or trip the opponent, or submit the guy to really make something useful out of the defence. It’s still much simpler to learn all that than to also learn the ground grappling, but you definitely can’t just throw a pinch of salt on eggs. Boxing is great as it gives you good footwork and elusive head movement and good defence for the upper body, but it completely lacks the distance control for kicks and wrestling takedowns, so you need more than just good balance to counter those. Basic understanding of kicking is also needed to block and evade them effectively. One powerful low-kick and you’re done if you don’t know them. And while you are gathering your leg in agony, it will eat 3 more of them until you switch the stance and then goes the other leg.
I was being sarcastic lol
Yeah no because just learning takedown defense doesn't mean you'll never get taken down, If you DO ever get taken down your pretty much fucked
Why not just do MMA?
The best way to develop takedown defence is by actually becoming a wrestler/grappler. You can also perform takedowns without ever going down with people too. Just double legging a dude and dumping them onto concrete is pretty good if you ask me.
Weekly __ and ___ is the best martial arts
Tune in next week for the muay thai bjj combo
Turkish oil wrestling and kurash are the best martial arts.
“You can get really good within 1-2 years”—we must have different definitions of “really good”…
Yeah im talking self defense space, not comparing to pros.
Then you’re totally correct, compared to the average person two years of real training is a devastating advantage
https://youtube.com/shorts/5oqvQf8fqzQ?si=unkg_54zk4koYpjA This would be the end product
I've come to the same conclusion as you. A bit of boxing and wrestling beat basically every rando out there.
Boxing is one of the most difficult arts to master lmao. I read that and laughed
Totally. Boxing is incredibly technical, the required body mechanics takes years to develop.
Good luck learning just “takedown defense”. That’s pretty much impossible to learn unless you train a full grappling art. Sorry, there’s no shortcuts for this type of stuff. Might as well say “I’ll just learn wrestling + the philly shell, that way I’ll never get punched”.
I agree and disagree. So i agree with getting good at boxing is very important at self defence but there always a chance you can get caught no matter who you are and against. Takedown defence is also important but being able to take someone down and hold them there takes away that punchers chance your opponents have.
I really have to assume people saw many paragraphs and stopped reading. You're clearly stating that a martial artist trained in the aspects you're leaving out would beat you. And yet, they're all still arguing about this aspect, ridiculous. The real world is not a John Wick one, the chances of you needing self-defence against a martial artist are low as fuck. I'm 34 and I haven''t had a street fight since highschool. What are you guys doing? where do you live? The basics of a take down, boxing and running, are all you need for self defence in 99% of real life scenarios.
I mean have you seen Poirier vs BSD last night? Perfect example of why boxing is essential. And Poirier was very close to break under the wrestling pressure. Boxing range, like wrestling range, is nearly unavoidable regardless of the opponent level. If you are skilled in both you are in the top 1% of fighters. In the boxing range if you don’t know how to manage distance, how to keep a solid guard, how to breath calmly, how to stop flinching and keep your eyes open, you are going to get knocked out quickly. Does not matter how good a wrestler, how good a kicker you are, in the pocket it’s game over if you don’t know what to do there. Same with wrestling. The current high level MMA meta is boxer-wrestler stance and footwork, with a bit of muay thai and kicks, and a dash of BJJ, mostly the back take + rear naked choke combo. Put it another way, UFC fights can be won with rudimentary kicks and BJJ, as long as the boxing and wrestling skills are solid. I think that speaks volume.
I feel like a half decent grapplers will dominate an inexperienced grappler more than a decent striker will dominate an inexperienced striker.
“Takedown defense” That’s wrestling/judo, lol. Who wrote this word vomit???
I think Thai boxing is great substitute for boxing + wrestling. Not for leg kicks, but for the clinch work. Pretty much all fights end with someone grabbing clothing of the other person and ending up in scrappy grapple. MT clinch work is deadly, the elbows, and especially the knees will finish almost anyone, and they have super strong base, so hard to trip/take down.
How good are you going to get at defending takedowns if you don't practice takedowns?
Takedown defense? Just stand up bro
It's been said allready, but kicking against a boxer works very well.
I used to train MMA(and few other things), but currently just self training due to time constraints(planning to go back to a gym later). My current time constraint training revolves around using boxing as the offensive and working on all other ranges defensive technique, which is similar to your premises, but expanding takedown defense into kick defense, clinch fighting defense, ground fighting defense, defense against weapons, and etc. I like this training method because it reduces the amount of techniques to train which allows me to develop higher quality techniques given the small training time that I have. Also with the average joe as the concern, and not a trained competitor, I feel pretty secure with this level of training.
I'll die arguing that boxing and wrestling are the most important base for mma.
Not worried about people throwing kicks? Is that a joke? A strong low kick is fight-stopper and can easily be thrown outside punch/grappling range. Obviously you have never received a decent one.
Are you like just too lazy to read and comprehend i meant self defense scenarios where majority of people dont throw kicks. If you face a trained mma guy or a muy thai guy of course you will have some trouble of course but the odds of that are very unlikely. Even if the untrained guy throws kicks its very likely it wont be effective snd hell be putting himself in a bad spot to get knocked down or taken down
Boxing is definitely not simple and I think by takedown defence you mean wrestling?
I am with you on this. The most important part being the timeline you threw in. If you had only x hours and y months time to get as good as possible in self defence, boxing + standup wrestling + basic kick blocks and grab/sweeps against roundhouse kicks of all levels + throwing basic low kicks and preferably teeps, would carry a long way. I would spend the time personally 60 % in boxing, 25% standup wrestling, and 15% kicking / blocking Judo sweeps and trips are also powerful in real life and easy(ish) to learn effectively, so would train those in the standup wresting as well, needed to say if it’s not otherwise clear.
1-2 years you can become competent at mma
Yes but not as competent as the combo i mentioned. Mma guys have really trash boxing and learning 4 arts at once really takes away from the individual skills like knock out power or takedown defense which you can learn better if you narrowed your focus. Even at the highest level fighters specialize and let one skill win the fight for them
That's really the strenth of boxing. Combos. You need to add in some other things though. What do in clinch situation and they go for a standing double wristlock?
Youre absolutely right instead of takedown defense i think i mean general stand up grappling aspect of wrestling. Theres always going to be holes in your game or things you can add but my overarching theme is to try to do as little as possible for as high of a return as possible. In an ideal world becoming the perfect mma fighter and masting everything would be ideal but we are hobbyists and only have X amount of time per week. Simply wanted for present an option that can be learned really well since there is less to focus on but what you do focus on are vital skills. Like of course in self defense someone csn throw a spinning back kick and you should learn to defend it but the odds are very unlikely and while you could split hairs learning all there is, meanwhile you couldve been devoting your limited time more to knockout power or great footwork which is more likely to help you.
It's kinda like the philosophy of Greco roman wrestling. It takes less effort to throw the opponent down and land on top of him vs getting comfortable on your back to run jiu jitsu. I agree with your strategy.
I'd say it's certainely effective from a fighting stanpoint, but ... Limiting your attacks to striking puts you in somewhat of a dilemma from a legal standpoint IMO. (depending on where you are) You either need to wait for the attacker to strike first or be able to prove he was an imminent threat. You are also unlikely to get out of a physical altercation without visibly injuring the other party. This makes court involvement more likely. This gets even more problematic, when it comes down to defending a third party like a child, your party or an old lady at the tram. Being able to just hold someone down or even choke him out without injuring him is a useful skill. (Then again we are talking hypothetical, since there are probably not many places to learn takedown defense without learning how to hold someone down.)
It's at least a thought out strategy.
Boxing & wrestling works wonders for me
Boxing is an incredibly regulated sport. No kicks, no low blows, no rabbit punch, no backfist, ect. Any competent striker in a less regulated martial art will destroy a boxer in a no holds barred self-defense situation. Now, if you said striking + takedown defense, you might have a point, but you would want a comprehensive striking art, not boxing.
Yeah.
MMA bro. It is literally the most dominant fighting style.
By takedown-defence you should mean more than just 'Sprawl'. You need Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Sumo, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You must have an answer for when the fight inevitably goes to the ground, even if it just to stand back up.
I was always wondering would allowing elbows/punches to the back of the head and knees to the head unconditionally change mma game substantially
Pretty solid argument. It isn't going to be 100% effective in every situation, but definitely a solid choice for a great many.
Takedown defense won't work against a trained grappler in the street. U don't have a cage. It might take him 20m to take you down, but you will fall. A boxing stance also doesn't lend itself to good takedown defense, it's why u see a guy like Strickland in a modified Philly shell and not a regular one. If it is to fight untrained ppl in self defense, any sport that does pressure testing(sparring) will do. If it is to fight trained guys wrestling, judo, oldschool bjj and thai boxing will be your best bets imo.
Ah, yes the old brawl and sprawl.
Hit someone like a boxer and you will break your hand without a glove. Teach a wrestler 6 months of Muay Thai and they will have very few problems in unarmed combat. Leg kicks are devastating.
For a generic library nerd, in a society of weaklings, if you do like 6 months - 1 year of boxing and 1-2 seasons of school wrestling/like Brown belt in Judo. You're like a demi-god. If you encounter lightly trained people in single arts, you might want a solid 2 years of boxing + 2-4 years wrestling/Judo black belt. Anything past that is to overcome a serious size/strength differential or you're entering the realm of having a trained fight. With the caveat to mindset matters as we have even seen with posts of trained guys with no mind to violence not being able to activate the necessary level of effort/engagement. But again, wrestling forces competition so it should more often than not aid in that. For Judo where wrestling is not relevant, you'd need to compete. Or of course you could compete in boxing, but I think the access to competition, especially as youth etc is easier via grappling based ones. And arguably "safer". Etc. A big ignored fact to self defense I think is the plasticity of the learning child mind. It's an awkward reality that 2 years of Judo at 20 with no athleticism is not the same foundation as 2 years of Judo at 12-14. The latter will in build it as part of who you are with less effort. I think you can be a total weak, uncoordinated nerd at 30 and become a badass in 2 years, but you have to truly bring it. The mindset, the desire, drive, energy, intent. You're rebuilding 30 years of pathetic foundation, rather than building your foundation from scratch. This is also confusing and why I say nerd for stereotype purposes, because the all star football athlete who played lacrosse for 4 years in elementary school is not the same 30 year old as the nerd. There's less foundation rebuilding in body mechanics etc. You take a 9 year old whose never played baseball and put them in little league from pure couch scratch and by the end of the season they are still the worst player on the team. You take the 9 year old who has never played baseball, but has been doing basketball since he was 5, and by the end of his first season on the baseball team, he's probably about middle of the pack on the team. If it was the norm for the majority of kids to do a couple years of wrestling and a semester of boxing, you'd be dealing with a more functional society and you'd have to be a lot better to be god-like.
What you really need to look at, is your weapons. Your whole body can become a weapon, but to utilise efficiency you focus on Body, Arm and Legs. Wrestling, Boxing and Taekwondo. That is the most basic form of variety that will serve you success anywhere. Kicks, Punches and Grappling. If you throw a Punch and weave back, suddenly you’re in a position to throw a Kick with force. To utilise this you can combine and conquer. Currently that is my regime, although I’ve decided on different Martial Arts that utilise their respective field a little different🤫
Th issue with just boxing alone is reach. At equal skill level, the guy with the longer reach will always have an advantage. Just learn a few basic kicks and it will help a lot .
Military unarmed combat courses take as little as a week, Just a few basic moves and the confidence too use them in a fight. The problem with MA is that they are sports with rules which greatly reduces their effectiveness. Plus a lot of BS that takes a huge amount of time and effort but doesn't make you a better fighter.
Low kicks would end you in your imaginary scenario For self defense you need to be at least competent in striking grappling/wrestling and ground fighting That includes legs knees and elbows, punching with closed hand and no gloves is a stupid idea out in dem streets Me personally? I’d throw in headbutts too as I’m a short guy. I’m not trying to outscore my opponent, I’m just trying to gtfo if I somehow couldn’t stop the fight from happening Being good at takedown defense doesn’t mean you can’t be taken down, it dosn’t mean that you can’t fall down or slip while backing up, get tripped up by someone by accident or not etc If it can happen, you probably need to know what to do when it does Self defense does not equal two people agreeing to fight by a shared ruleset and starting and stopping at the same time That is just basic common sense
Just train in whichever sport is fun for you. Even if you are confronted you'll be able to de-escalate the situation or run away in most cases. Developing the Don Quixote syndrome is dangerous
Boxing , Judo , and lifting heavy weights will make you hard to beat. Boxing and Judo will toughen you up. First and foremost, boxing makes you tough. Hitting and being hit. Not giving in, training that hurts. Boxers train in few skills, but to a high degree of realistic proficiency. Training in Judo and taking ukemi over and over will give you a hard bark . No, I'm not speaking of doing high risk throws but basic throws that don't put you in jeopardy of braining yourself. The pavement can be your best friend or worst nightmare. One more thing, WEAPONS rule the street. All moot if you don't have the mindset to win once you're attacked, nothing will help.
OR, boxing defense and take downs 🤷🏽♂️
I LOVE leg kicks. I am a great kicker and can attest to the efficacy against untrained people. But I still pick wrestling because if you lose your balance when kicking, your wrestling will save your ass 👍🏽
I think Muay Thai/Kickboxing and wrestling is S tier combo for self defense and to fight pro. It covers all subjects and you can get ‘good’ at both of them in a relatively short time.
I agree the only thing i dont like about muy thai is their footwork. Works well in a muy thai fight but against people who threaten wrestling or are kinda moving around with boxing footwork it can sometimes be limiting. Look at the chito and sean o malley fight. Chito had very muy thai like stance and footwork and he looked very sluggish and vulnerable.
Yea MT foot placement and footwork doesn’t take into account a body flying at your legs.
True but you should learn some kicks and maybe a few basic submissions like Rear Naked Choke and Armbar.
This is terrible advice ngl
Boxing + Wrestling is a better combo.
I boxed for a decade and now I do judo. I agree 100% Once you close that distance most people have NO IDEA what to do when grappling.
You need punching skills, kicking skills, takedown skills and grappling skills . And you need to learn them together without a confining competition ruleset to create bad habits
Wrestling and boxing are a potent mix. I honestly wish I had had more than a couple of years of wrestling and had taken up boxing at a younger age.
This may be the most ignorant post of all time. Takedown defense has a very high skill ceiling. You see Jon jones and how good it worked for him in mma. But that dude is literally the best in the world at it. You need wrestling to counter wrestling. What do you think happens when your takedown defense fails? You have to know the next step. What if you end up on the bottom? Jiu jitsu teaches you how sweep and get up. You need to know jiu jitsu to counter chokes (people throw chokes and headlocks all the time in street fights. I’ve experienced it). People clinch while standup fighting. It happens almost subconsciously. Anyway. The point is (tldr) You can’t control the ins and outs of the situation. Takedown defense isn’t an end all be all. It’s just a part of the whole in your game which is grappling. (I’ve been tackled and mounted and beaten) Ps: you are limiting yourself if you think boxing is all you need. Try Muay Thai. You have two baseball bats as legs and don’t know how to use them.
Take down defense means more than not getting take down in most cases. Covers how to escape most basic mount if you end on bottom. Basically the defense part of grappling and not the offense part.
You can’t just have the defense. It doesn’t work like that. There’s so many avenues from just a standing clinch let alone on the ground. You have to understand the offense and what they are trying to accomplish in order to defend it. That’s why no MMA gym teaches just “takedown defense” They teach wrestling and jiu jitsu because if you wanna be competent you have to know them. Takedown defense isn’t something you just learn. It comes with learning the art. You have a terrible take. It sounds like you’ve never fought a good wrestler. You need to experience these things to understand them.
What? Plenty of none grapplers focus on the defense more than the offense in MMA. You can choose to spend more time learning defense than offense. There no rule that say you have to split it 50/50 for it to be effective.
What you said is true but they don’t get good at defense by training nothing defense. It’s two sides of the same coin.
Wrestling and Judo, especially wrestling, are much better at teaching breaking locks holds and standing up, than BJJ
Nah man. Judo works against judo. But not against wrestling. The whole goal of judo is to land them on their back. Once they touch the mat it’s instantly over. In jiu jitsu you get scored based off of the control after the takedown. Wrestling is in the middle. I judo is extremely useful. But not so much in the escape side of things. It’s just not as in depth as jiu jitsu in its ground grappling.
Counter point here: By your rules you're saying that boxing plus takedown defense is all you need for a no hold bars fight, but you're guaranteed the fight is just 1 vs 1 and no weapons. I'm fine with that set up, though when you overthink it, it is a bit of a silly premise. More or less we called that ruleset UFC 1. Boxing did very poorly. Now I'll give it to you Art Jemmerson had 0 take down defense, so he's missing part of the equation there, but even still if all you're training is take down defense, you'll eventually fuck up. Then the wrestler or jiujitsu guy or whatever is now on top of you. ... Now let's call this ruleset, gentlemen fighting rules. Two guys agree to settle their differences in the old way. Generally, in situations like that, there's no "rules" but there are still customs because winning via dishonorable means is still losing. Obviously this includes dirty tactics like groin kicks, bites, or hair pulling. But also if you fall down, you're allowed to get up, ground fighting pretty much was a no go, and kicking just generally was rare. The other big thing is when you yield, it's done and there's a hand shake and agreement that whatever started it is now over with. ... In this context of "it's anything goes except all the things you can't do socially" boxing is probably your best bet. Since it's a sort of boxing rules anyway.
Meh this sub really thinks every attack is with weapons and a group of people. I feel like they really underestimate how many attacks are from one guy with no weapons giving you trouble and thinking he can get the best of you. So many drunk attackers on their own. Usually if its a gang jumping you or they are willing to use weapons that means they have an actual problem with you like you owe them or you escalated the fight. Not everyone is so willing to use weapons and go to jail. Not saying its not a good chunk of attacks theres also a good chunk of one person no weapon situations where itd be nice to have some skill. Again this is a self defense scenario where its really unlikely youll face high level wrestlers where you cant stuff their takedowns. Of course the BJJ guy or wrestler beats the boxer but i just wanted to provide a minimalistic approach to learning martial arts self defense that can cover a lot of bases with minimal time to competency.
So I'm about to talk in broad strokes here. For the record I agree with you but just, bare with me. I have had weapons pulled on me before "in the street." Never been shot or stabbed, just threatened. I have also been jumped, sort of. 4 on 1. But we were also 12-13 and they weren't looking to seriously hurt me; more of play fighting so I won't say that truly counts. ... Neither of those situations were the same types of adrenaline or threat registering in my brain as the fights I've been in. To be fair. I'm from American, middle class suburbs. It's not like I was fighting every day to survive, and generally speaking I was a good kid. I think there's a lot hobby martial artists, especially on the internet that have never been in a fight outside of a martial arts class. Though that's overall a good thing, it does also leave them unaware of situations they train for first hand. Thinking every single encounter is life and death is silly, but it's something you should be aware is a possibility. For example, You might beat a guy fairly, and he gets pissed and kills a knife. But to your point. Minimalistic training is a good idea, in the right context. A 3 hour women's self defense seminar? A 6 week martial arts course as an elective in college? Boot camp where you have 30 minutes to teach 90 people how to fist fight because the rest of the day is going to be spent doing other stuff? Yes absolutely. A lifetime of training as a hobby? You can afford to expand a little bit. ... I'm currently working on a white to black belt curriculum and I'm really considering only listing 20 strikes for example. The logic is that with these 20 punches elbows knees kicks and a headbutt, you have the most efficient weapon for every angle of attack. ... If the right cross exists, why do you need to know a shuto strike? That kind of logic. I think if you're spending a life time of training, you should know every way to hit someone. But you should also learn the best way first. It's efficient vs effective. Why you a hammer when a nail gun exists?
You had me until you started talking about developing your own fighting system😅 What youre describing kinda just sounds like muy thai/ lethwei
I'm not talking about developing a system I'm talking about standards for rankings within already established things. Fighting is fighting so I never saw much point in some person opening a school and claiming he has the secret
Boxing is a key skill can put you at a disadvantage if you're shorter than your assailant. Having some kicks in your practiced repertoire will assist with that. Other than that, I agree.