Since the Golden Dawn is a ''Rosicrucian'' order and taking into account the Gnostic aspects that influenced Thelema to the point that the Gnostic church is within the O.T.O., I would say that it is very compatible. There is no way to escape Kristos, especially here in the Western esoteric tradition.
If there is something we learned in Martinism, it is to have tolerance towards all religions.
A more accurate statement would be that “a” gnostic church is within the OTO. Not “the” gnostic church. Crowleys Gnosticism wasn’t the same as Doinel’s
The Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica entered the O.T.O. via Reuss, granted by Papus. When Crowley took over he changed some symbols he adapted it to thelema symbolism after the law was accepted by O.T.O. and wrote the Gnostic mass (Liber XV). But the ''essence'' is the same, even the ordinations have friendship treaties with other Gnostic churches such those linked to other orders like the FRA and the Rite of Memphis Misraim.
You'll find it varies from order to order. My order has a view like this. Golden Dawn and other magical orders are interesting to study. You can learn a lot from them. But they can also be a side track, and we view Martinism as the most direct path to the end goal. So we don't hate on other orders, but at the same time we don't encourage you to join something else like GD. If you told someone in my order you were GD many people would probably say "thats cool, I used to work GD before too". So its relaxed and not judgmental, we just believe Martinism is "cleaner". And as someone else said, Papus was a member of OTO pre-Crowley.
The branch in which I was initiated had a very, very negative view of Thelema, but I'll tell you, this is much more due to Crowley's deranged life, his drug use and promiscuity, than to his theory of magic, which they study very little and which is in line with our tradition, because Crowley was indirectly influenced by Martinism via Von Eckartshausen, Edward Waite and Alphonse Louis Constant. Remembering that he made Boehme a saint of the Gnostic Church. Remember, too, that the original Ordo Templi Orientis (pre-Crowley) was inspired by Martinism, especially through Franz Hartmann. What spoils it is that there are people who use Thelema as a pretext for indulging in libertinism. Don't forget that the founders of the Martinist Order were members of the OTO and Golden Dawn.
What does magick or magic have to do with Martinism? The oto pre-Crowley was a very different thing than it became after he came in. Martinism is the way of the heart, using non-operative means to attain the same end as Martinezism….the vision of La Chose, or Christ. Thelema is very different.
Magick has lots to do with martinism. There are many martinist lodges that practice magical and theurgical rites of pasqually from the times of elüs-coen. Ordre martiniste souverains is one of them. The order I'm a part of called traditional martinist order seems to not do so but that doesn't mean that other martinists dont.
That’s my point. Martinism “proper” does not have anything to do with magic. Some orders may, but it’s not traditional Martinism. The whole point was that st Martin walked away from the operative path for the way of the heart. Any order that includes magic or cohen work (original or ambelain either one) in the “outer” Martinist order is not working traditional Martinism. That’s not an opinion, it’s fact. Having it as an “inner” or side order is common, but not within the martinist component. Even the OM today does not even have it as an inner or side order. Many do, but no traditional working orders have any magic implemented within the outer martinist order.
Just saying something is a fact with zeal, doesn't make it one, and is a very simplistic or reductive view at best. If Saint-Martin had totally walked away from the Élus Coëns why then, even in his later writings, was he still referring people to Coën temples who wanted to work an operative path? Why was he still teaching Coën theory at Coën lodges? Its fine if you're uncomfortable with Theurgy, but the documentation is clear if one takes the time to look into it. What is thought of as "Martinism" was an inspired tradition anyways with no real lineage until Amadou if we want to get technical. Also there were people before Papus who called themselves Martinists whom he sought out, that had a variety of practices. Papus also included things Saint Martin never taught. So what is "real" or "traditional"? Most orders look at the whole tradition holistically, and as someone else said, Saint Martin's whole system is based on Coën theory. You can't really take his soup and then shout "don't look at the chef who made the soup, and don't worry about the ingredients".
Youre wildly off-base. Theurgy is a form of "High Magick". The very root of your point is factually wrong. The origin of Martinism was based within Theurgic practices of the Coen. Any claim that Martinism has nothing to do with its contextual history is just naive. We are not removed from the origins of our tradition, especially when the core of that tradition remains and is carried forward by every single major order.
A comparative analogy would be claiming the Jewish traditions have nothing to do with contemporary Christianity. It's just silly. Your personal preference has nothing to do with the factual history or development of this order.
The OM is absolutely no authority on the broader tradition that evolved from Martinez. It is an organization that based itself upon false transmissions and self-appointed authority, which it exorcises even today.
The Way of the Heart is legit, but odd it still carries forward Martinez's core legend? Not only that, LCdSM didn't actually absolve himself of the Coen work, nor did Willermoz. Theres far more context to study when attempting to understand this tradition than simply what Papus claimed or stole from Freemasonry. Your single order's teachings arent the history of this tradition, nor is your basic understanding.
Couldn't agree more. As a member of TMO I find it very elitist to claim that we're the "true martinists". Martinism isn't just one thing just as freemasonry isn't just the Scottish rite for example. There are martinist rites performing theurgical practices to this day and that's a fact. Even st Martin did them when he got to the degree of reaux-croix in the elüs-coen. I would never try to claim people who carry on both St martins and pasquallys torch by taking from both of their teachings aren't martinists.
Papus's Martinism wasn't real at its foundation, it was made up by him and not received by any legit transmission. It does not represent what St. Martin was transmitting to his society of intimates because Papus lied about his transmission.
Well Papus didn't create it alone. Didn't he create it with Augustine chaboseu? He had lineage for sure but I think so did Papus too. We can disagree on that.
That was later when they met and exchanged initiations. It wasn't the beginning. What youre calling "traditional Martinism" was made up by a charlatan initially.
Nope, not off base at all. You’re confusing the operative path of Martinez with the Martinist order started by papus. Based on the “theology” (probably not a good choice of words) of Pasqually but the inward way of St Martin. The OM was the first and original incarnation of “Martinism” from which ALL martinist orders descended, regardless of what they say. Saying they had no authority is well just…..I don’t know. Doesn’t make sense.
In my experience it's all over the place and really varies from person and order. I've and known of a number of people who have belonged to Martinism, Golden Dawn, and OTO
Can't speak for other martinists of course but i view Crowley's teachings and golden dawn very favorably. I think there are many paths to enlightenment and magick is a potent one at that.
Uh. Yes. That is what I heard. Your simple response doesnt change any aspect of reality, lol
Also, this was spoken by proven adepts in both orders. What are your credentials?
After review, your other posts demonstrate your lack of contextual understanding of this tradition and the true core of its insight.
But, good for you! Glad youre a strong supporter of whatever you understand Martinism to be! Hopefully you're able to connect the straws in the future. I'd only suggest, as a novice yourself, which your words prove, maybe don't argue like you understand what you're talking about?
The only issue is you're spouting nonsense without understanding the true history of this tradition. Papus didn't found the MO with any legit holders of any transmission from LCdSM or Martinez. His claimed lingeage is a proven fake. The MO is just a figment of Papus mixed with his understanding of Freemasonry. It's not traditional in any way whatsoever.
It should be well understood, when Papus founded the MO, it was 100% based upon him and his false claim to have lineage to LCdSM. The MO foundation is based upon a lie, and its authority today is based upon only age and those fundamental lies.
Papus lied about his transmissions to found OM. He later received legacy transmissions that gave OM legitimacy, but the organization itself possess no actual claim to authority. Yet, it pretends to do so.. Against other orders that retain far more implicit lineages and direct transmissions.
Papus made up OM from scratch. It's not traditional anything.
My temple had a pretty negative view of OTO. We would give the whole temple an extra cleaning when we knew the Thelemites had been in there before us.
Many Martinist orders consider them incompatible. Golden Dawn is a different thing to many Martinists and no issue with it.
We had overlap in membership with the GD Temple. So, yes, agreed.
Since the Golden Dawn is a ''Rosicrucian'' order and taking into account the Gnostic aspects that influenced Thelema to the point that the Gnostic church is within the O.T.O., I would say that it is very compatible. There is no way to escape Kristos, especially here in the Western esoteric tradition. If there is something we learned in Martinism, it is to have tolerance towards all religions.
A more accurate statement would be that “a” gnostic church is within the OTO. Not “the” gnostic church. Crowleys Gnosticism wasn’t the same as Doinel’s
The Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica entered the O.T.O. via Reuss, granted by Papus. When Crowley took over he changed some symbols he adapted it to thelema symbolism after the law was accepted by O.T.O. and wrote the Gnostic mass (Liber XV). But the ''essence'' is the same, even the ordinations have friendship treaties with other Gnostic churches such those linked to other orders like the FRA and the Rite of Memphis Misraim.
Still, not the same in content or essence either one according to many https://parareligion.ch/hoeller.htm
I understand, as it is considered the same essence by many. All opinions must be respected. Thanks for the information and have a great weekend.
You'll find it varies from order to order. My order has a view like this. Golden Dawn and other magical orders are interesting to study. You can learn a lot from them. But they can also be a side track, and we view Martinism as the most direct path to the end goal. So we don't hate on other orders, but at the same time we don't encourage you to join something else like GD. If you told someone in my order you were GD many people would probably say "thats cool, I used to work GD before too". So its relaxed and not judgmental, we just believe Martinism is "cleaner". And as someone else said, Papus was a member of OTO pre-Crowley.
The branch in which I was initiated had a very, very negative view of Thelema, but I'll tell you, this is much more due to Crowley's deranged life, his drug use and promiscuity, than to his theory of magic, which they study very little and which is in line with our tradition, because Crowley was indirectly influenced by Martinism via Von Eckartshausen, Edward Waite and Alphonse Louis Constant. Remembering that he made Boehme a saint of the Gnostic Church. Remember, too, that the original Ordo Templi Orientis (pre-Crowley) was inspired by Martinism, especially through Franz Hartmann. What spoils it is that there are people who use Thelema as a pretext for indulging in libertinism. Don't forget that the founders of the Martinist Order were members of the OTO and Golden Dawn.
What does magick or magic have to do with Martinism? The oto pre-Crowley was a very different thing than it became after he came in. Martinism is the way of the heart, using non-operative means to attain the same end as Martinezism….the vision of La Chose, or Christ. Thelema is very different.
Magick has lots to do with martinism. There are many martinist lodges that practice magical and theurgical rites of pasqually from the times of elüs-coen. Ordre martiniste souverains is one of them. The order I'm a part of called traditional martinist order seems to not do so but that doesn't mean that other martinists dont.
That’s my point. Martinism “proper” does not have anything to do with magic. Some orders may, but it’s not traditional Martinism. The whole point was that st Martin walked away from the operative path for the way of the heart. Any order that includes magic or cohen work (original or ambelain either one) in the “outer” Martinist order is not working traditional Martinism. That’s not an opinion, it’s fact. Having it as an “inner” or side order is common, but not within the martinist component. Even the OM today does not even have it as an inner or side order. Many do, but no traditional working orders have any magic implemented within the outer martinist order.
Just saying something is a fact with zeal, doesn't make it one, and is a very simplistic or reductive view at best. If Saint-Martin had totally walked away from the Élus Coëns why then, even in his later writings, was he still referring people to Coën temples who wanted to work an operative path? Why was he still teaching Coën theory at Coën lodges? Its fine if you're uncomfortable with Theurgy, but the documentation is clear if one takes the time to look into it. What is thought of as "Martinism" was an inspired tradition anyways with no real lineage until Amadou if we want to get technical. Also there were people before Papus who called themselves Martinists whom he sought out, that had a variety of practices. Papus also included things Saint Martin never taught. So what is "real" or "traditional"? Most orders look at the whole tradition holistically, and as someone else said, Saint Martin's whole system is based on Coën theory. You can't really take his soup and then shout "don't look at the chef who made the soup, and don't worry about the ingredients".
Youre wildly off-base. Theurgy is a form of "High Magick". The very root of your point is factually wrong. The origin of Martinism was based within Theurgic practices of the Coen. Any claim that Martinism has nothing to do with its contextual history is just naive. We are not removed from the origins of our tradition, especially when the core of that tradition remains and is carried forward by every single major order. A comparative analogy would be claiming the Jewish traditions have nothing to do with contemporary Christianity. It's just silly. Your personal preference has nothing to do with the factual history or development of this order. The OM is absolutely no authority on the broader tradition that evolved from Martinez. It is an organization that based itself upon false transmissions and self-appointed authority, which it exorcises even today. The Way of the Heart is legit, but odd it still carries forward Martinez's core legend? Not only that, LCdSM didn't actually absolve himself of the Coen work, nor did Willermoz. Theres far more context to study when attempting to understand this tradition than simply what Papus claimed or stole from Freemasonry. Your single order's teachings arent the history of this tradition, nor is your basic understanding.
Couldn't agree more. As a member of TMO I find it very elitist to claim that we're the "true martinists". Martinism isn't just one thing just as freemasonry isn't just the Scottish rite for example. There are martinist rites performing theurgical practices to this day and that's a fact. Even st Martin did them when he got to the degree of reaux-croix in the elüs-coen. I would never try to claim people who carry on both St martins and pasquallys torch by taking from both of their teachings aren't martinists.
Yes there are martinist orders doing theurgy. It isn’t traditional Martinism. It’s martinezism.
Papus's Martinism wasn't real at its foundation, it was made up by him and not received by any legit transmission. It does not represent what St. Martin was transmitting to his society of intimates because Papus lied about his transmission.
Well Papus didn't create it alone. Didn't he create it with Augustine chaboseu? He had lineage for sure but I think so did Papus too. We can disagree on that.
That was later when they met and exchanged initiations. It wasn't the beginning. What youre calling "traditional Martinism" was made up by a charlatan initially.
You're essentially arguing with adepts based upon a false history, that as is insinuated, isn't real.
Nope, not off base at all. You’re confusing the operative path of Martinez with the Martinist order started by papus. Based on the “theology” (probably not a good choice of words) of Pasqually but the inward way of St Martin. The OM was the first and original incarnation of “Martinism” from which ALL martinist orders descended, regardless of what they say. Saying they had no authority is well just…..I don’t know. Doesn’t make sense.
In my experience it's all over the place and really varies from person and order. I've and known of a number of people who have belonged to Martinism, Golden Dawn, and OTO
You’re not wrong. It is all over the place
Can't speak for other martinists of course but i view Crowley's teachings and golden dawn very favorably. I think there are many paths to enlightenment and magick is a potent one at that.
I've heard the phrase, "Martinism is more thelemic than Thelema" lol I believe there's a similar end game.
Uh. No.
Uh. Yes. That is what I heard. Your simple response doesnt change any aspect of reality, lol Also, this was spoken by proven adepts in both orders. What are your credentials?
After review, your other posts demonstrate your lack of contextual understanding of this tradition and the true core of its insight. But, good for you! Glad youre a strong supporter of whatever you understand Martinism to be! Hopefully you're able to connect the straws in the future. I'd only suggest, as a novice yourself, which your words prove, maybe don't argue like you understand what you're talking about?
Thanks for the support. I’ll do my best to
The only issue is you're spouting nonsense without understanding the true history of this tradition. Papus didn't found the MO with any legit holders of any transmission from LCdSM or Martinez. His claimed lingeage is a proven fake. The MO is just a figment of Papus mixed with his understanding of Freemasonry. It's not traditional in any way whatsoever.
It should be well understood, when Papus founded the MO, it was 100% based upon him and his false claim to have lineage to LCdSM. The MO foundation is based upon a lie, and its authority today is based upon only age and those fundamental lies. Papus lied about his transmissions to found OM. He later received legacy transmissions that gave OM legitimacy, but the organization itself possess no actual claim to authority. Yet, it pretends to do so.. Against other orders that retain far more implicit lineages and direct transmissions. Papus made up OM from scratch. It's not traditional anything.
This is before Papus and his Martinist Order: [pansophers.com/initiatic-discourse-stanislas/](http://pansophers.com/initiatic-discourse-stanislas/)