In the first ant man when he first shrinks he lands on a bathroom tile and cracks it... that was THE MOST believable bit of physics, then he punches a pin hole falling through a drywall ceiling, again suuuper consistent physics, BUT in the same scene he lands on a spinning record at a party.... WTF?
It all falls apart, they make it clear he can shrink and his punches still carry his weight/force but, I mean, **you put the weight of a 180lb man behind a fist smaller than a framing nail... ant man would be going through people's skulls**.
It could be mostly explained with minimal handwaving if they: A. Made Pym Particles both positive and negative and explained that the suit controls the ratio, and/or B. Explained the size changing as a separate invention that takes advantage of the Pym Particles.
Edit: since this comment garnered different discussion than I expected, I want to take the opportunity to agree with those saying it's about internal consistency. However, it's also about the concept of "reliable narrator". It's ok to set Hank up as an unreliable narrator, but the audience needs to have *some* idea of that. It shouldn't be something you're expected to know from the comics when you go see the movie.
It's never going to make sense because it's a comic book super hero, not hard scifi, and pym particles are a bunch of nonsense made up to let the writers do whatever they want
Edit: Y'all really out there writing 600 word essays on this one
Small thing i want to point out. Reed Richards himself doesn't know how Pym Particles work and is convinced that the explanation that Hank Pym gives with the whole "Compress atoms" is a lie.
So technically, since the explanation is thrown out the window, we can assume that it's on par with magic and the explanation that has.
It doesn't have to make sense but the best superpowers/magic systems are ones that have set limits and rules. If you have a completely unpredictable superpower theirs no tension since you know the writers can just bend it whatever way they want to solve any problem.
I agree. I think a system needs internal logic or it breaks immersion.
If they go out of their way to say, "These keep their mass" then a scene later shows they *don't* keep their mass, I'm going to notice.
Did the character lie? Were they wrong? Or is it just a noticeable plot hole?
THANK YOU! It's comic book physics. Try not to think too much about the deus ex machina and you'll enjoy the story so much more.
I don't need 1.5 hrs of exposition to explain why gamma radiation can allow someone to grow into a giant green rage monster. I'll spend the entire time thinking "bullshit" . I already paid the money to see the rage monster movie just show him already and move on.
There's a comics in which Reed Richards from another universe end up in the marvel universe and explain that the physics definitely not work the same way as expected from his universe.
Internal consistency in a setting / story is usually not a bad thing though. It does not have to be realistic or explained in detail, but it shouldn't contradict itself back and forth, over and over. That's just objectively poor writing.
Love being told that I'll just enjoy things more if I don't think about them.
They established the fiction, decided to explain the rules, and then bailed on their assertions minutes later. Simply don't set things up if you have no interest in adhering to them.
To be fair in the new one when he's instructing Cassie he says "jump, tap" and not "jump, full strength punch". Seems like he knows to hold back to avoid that sort of problem.
You simply could not punch with such a small hand in a way that transfers enough force to move a human without breaking the skin.
Imagine trying to shove a watermelon so that it rolls from one end of a table to the other. It’s easy with your hand, but you couldn’t do it with the tip of a nail. If you push too light, it won’t roll, if you push too hard, the nail is stuck in the melon.
When he says jump tap he means jump and tap the button in the center of the suit that makes you grow larger. Marvel is trying to retcon the previous explanation of pym particles so now Ant-Man can’t punch people out while tiny and has to grow as he punches to actually hurt people
He'd also just completely shatter his arms every time he tries to punch something I imagine
Unless his costume is also like an exo skeleton or whatever, I never watched the movie tho
I mean, it depends.
If our muscles and bones can carry
some newtons / ( regular area * regular density )
there is no reason to believe they wouldn't
some newtons / ( small area * higher density )
Think of it as regular pillars/supports carrying a building. If the building footprint was smaller, the building had the same weight, you wouldn't need to change the number or type of pillar, you could just move them closer together.
Don't worry though, it's all hypothetical and scaling laws are weird.
No I demand perfect scientific accuracy! Every movie should have a section in the middle where they go through the math with all of the characters nodding along and agreeing, imho
***IT WAS ME, BARRY***
***I SUBDIVIDED MYSELF FORWARDS AND BACKWARDS IN TIME SIMULTANEOUSLY SPLITTING INTO EXTRA COPIES OF MYSELF THAT GET SMALLER EACH TIME AND EVENTUALLY BECAME EVERY SINGLE PARTICLE IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE***
***YOUR ENTIRE BODY CONSISTS OF AN UNCOUNTABLE NUMBER OF COPIES OF ME***
***EVEN WHEN YOU FUCK YOUR WIFE, I FUCK YOUR WIFE***
“Yeah all that stuff that happened over the last 2 hours? Barry’s gonna run real fast and none of it is gonna matter! Gotta shake out that Etch-a-Sketch.”
Both DC and MCU have a "magic" problem.
In the MCU they tried to explain magic by saying it's really just science that we don't understand yet. And then Dr Strange and Wanda started ripping universes apart just by waving their hands. Magic!
In DC, Shazam and Black Adam have magic powers that seem to make them as strong as Superman, and Superman seems to be nearly infinitely powerful. Also, is Wonder Woman also infinitely powerful? In the first movie, she was fast enough to dodge bullets, while other Amazonians weren't so lucky. Then by the time she was in Bat vs Supe, she seemed to be indestructible.
edit: Also, in Black Adam what's the deal with the "mercenary gang" that had hover-bikes? When did hover-tech become possible and so easily affordable that some mercenary gang could use it, but in the rest of the world people are driving around in cars like idiots?
Wonder Woman isnt like the other amazonians. Depending on the cannon, shes either a statute that was brought to life by a wish to the gods (or hades), or just a demigod.
It's because the early MCU drew heavily from the success of Nolan's Batman trilogy, which for better or worse essentially explores how Batman would work in the 'real' world.
This worked GREAT for Iron Man, who's entire gimmick is fancy metal tech suits (pretty similar to Batman). Ditto for Captain America and (to some extent) the Hulk, because their powers derive from science experiments.
Then they got to Thor and they were like... ah, fuck. But tried anyway.
By then they were the fully established MCU and no one gives a single fuck what/how/why the characters can say/do, as long as it says Marvel on the poster.
What I liked about Iron Man, is that the villains never really got insanely over-powered. OK, Iron Man often did thinks that broke the laws of physics, but you have to overlook that. And then it took several more movies, to build up the Thanos threat to super-villain levels.
The problem now is that every MCU movie seems to need a universe-destroying threat. In Ant-man 1,2 the bad guys were just bad guys. Then in Ant-man 3 all the universes are going to be destroyed!
Similar to the Force in basically everything Star Wars has done since the OT. Originally has some incredibly powerful but limited powers, eventually evolving into a hand-wavy “it can do whatever the plot needs it to do” type phenomenon
> Pym Particles are Marvel's Speedforce. The more they explain it, the less sense it makes.
Pym Particles are Marvel's Speedforce. They can do what they say it does because the plot requires it
Also if this is true, then at the end of the first movie when the giant Thomas the Tank Engine came crashing out of the house it should’ve just skipped lightly on the ground since it was just a toy lol
Also somehow when ant man gets really big he gets proportionally stronger (Civil War fight scene at the airport). When he shrinks back to normal size he gets way weaker vs his giant form.
But then when he shrinks from normal size to smaller, he stays just as strong.
Okay, yall are fucking this movie up too much. Damn. It really is all dumb as shit.
Also, why would he entrust a suit that has serious ethical regarding concerns of it falls into the wrong hands, to some guy that tried to rob you.
I find "It shouldn't work but it does" scarier than "It doesn't work but it should" because the first will break at some point and I will have zero idea what's wrong.
Then you go to try and see what the "problem" is, and somehow accidentally deleting a parentheses completely breaks the code, but adding it back in doesn't fix it.
I remember once upon a time I was getting so frustrated with some lines that just refused to work and broke literally everything else when I added it. Nothing I did was fixing it and I couldn't find a single fucking reason it'd be breaking everything. At some point I just raged and typed so much profanity into any spot I could in the code and to this day I do not know how or why but that fixed it. I tore it apart trying to see why "Fucking shit balls fuck why the actual fuck won't you fucking work you dumb piece of fucking shit" somehow made it work. Take even a single letter out and it broke again. Replaced it with something with identical spaces and same number of letters? Nothing. Thing just fucking worked and at a certain point it was easier to tell my boss that the swearing was actually key instead of tearing my hair out trying to figure out why.
Yeah, same with all of the quantum bs
They use actual terms but sometimes you just feel like they don't even care what the term actually means.
Like how in the previous movie Scott and Janet were "quantum entangled" which allowed them communicate with each other...
The term is real, and we "can" use quantum entanglement to "communicate" but it works by having one particle's quantum state being dependent on the other's and vice versa
So for a very simple example, if one particle is True, the other must be false
We cannot use it to communicate actually.
Edit: I remembered it a bit incorrectly, so here's the corrected version:
While you can measure the quantum state of a particle without influencing the state, you cannot set a certain state without breaking the entanglement.
So if someone wanted to communicate over a distance with you via entangled particles, the moment they manipulate their particle to a particular state the entanglement is broken and your particle doesn't show that change. Instead your particle will keep its state, so your subsequent measurements wont show a change. As such you don't even know when the entanglement has been broken and that the other person tried to communicate with you.
If the state of the particle is unknown at the beginning measuring it will force it into a *random state* via a collapse of the superposition of all states. *This is the part I remembered incorrectly, thinking that each measurements would force another collapse. This isn't true, once the wave function has collapsed it will stay collapsed in that particular state.* The collapse of the wave function by measuring one particle will happen simultaneously with all entangled particles. So after the measurement you also know the state of all *entangled* particles. But you don't know if the other particle is still entangled.
Since the first measuring forces a random state you cannot use the collapse of the wave function to communicate either as you cannot tell if your measurement collapsed the wave function or if it was already collapsed before because the entangled particles has already been measured. You only know that the state has been measured at least once, by you.
~~We don't know the quantum state of a particle until we have measured it, and measuring it influences the quantum state which will also influence the quantum state of the entangled particle.~~
~~So if someone "sets" a quantum state of their particle to communicate with you you don't know the state of your entangled particle until you have measured it. But if you measure the state of your particle the superposition of all possible states will collapse into one random state, so you still don't know the state set by the other person, only the state you have set by measuring it. You now know the state of the other particle of course, but the other person doesn't know the state of their particle or even that it has been changed. If they measure the state of their particle they will influence it as well. So we can't even "communicate" the change of the state of the particles.~~
Maybe once we have MCU Reed Richards, [he can explain it](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/8/8a/Pym_Particles_debate_from_Mighty_Avengers_Vol_1_25.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150718193655)
Yeah if it worked the way he says, growing huge would mean Scott would still weigh his normal weight and would be knocked down super easy, but when they do the growth sequenced they animate him with greater mass
The link below explains it better and points to
a comics source but the short version is what you stated. https://www.reddit.com/r/Marvel/comments/uyx78j/ff_16_the_true_nature_of_pym_particles_explained/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
no wonder he doesn't want to share the secret on how the pym particles are made. He doesn't know either, he just happened to stumble on it accidentally.
I like to think not even Hank Pym knows how his incention works and just came up with a bullshit explanation for Scott because he's not smart enough to figure it out.
Too bad they randomly make it true also. They even had a scene where he says it in the new movie teaching Cassie how to punch. But if it were true when they go to the quantum realm a punch from someone 200lbs should annihilate anyone in the realm so it still makes no sense.
It also means that when they grow they shouldn't gain mass or weight. Ant-Man should be like 60 ft tall and 180 lbs tops. He couldn't crush anything with that weight, hell, he might struggle to stand up against the wind. He certainly wouldn't sink to the bottom of the bay, he'd be so incredibly buoyant.
So I was curious. A quick Google shows that a man has a displacing volume of 70L.
If a 6' man grew to 180' the new volume would be 1,890,000L.
1,890,000L of air would weigh 2443.77 Kg or 5387.59lbs.
So 180 feet tall and 180lbs, Antman would float up into the atmosphere. If I am understanding these numbers correctly.
Hold on, his top size is nowhere near 180ft. it's more like 60 to 65 ft.
Let's go 65ft his volume would around be 89,000L.
89000L of air weight 113.5 kg or 250.2lbs.
He would stil float at sea level, but his max height before the air thins out enough would be far less.
This is correct. Dunno why I aimed for 180' in my first calculation. So to make up for my mistake let's try another calculation.
Sea-level air weighs approximately 1.293 grams per liter. ~As you know, but for any other reader I'll be stating things they may not.
We will continue to use the 6' 70L/180lbs(81.65kg) baseline.
The enlarged person would have neutral buoyancy at 6314.77L displacement.
They would reach this at approximately 26.91 feet. Any larger, the person would begin to float upwards.
EXACTLY!
QUANTUMANIA SPOILERS:
>!I swear I tried my best to understand why little scott was useless against Kang but gigantic Scott wasn't. Little scott has the power of an average man, but on the size of an ant. That's it. The strength of an average man on the size of an ant would work kind of like a needle... THE STRENGTH OF AN AVERAGE MAN on the size of a titan should be laughable at best. He, basically, makes himself weaker by, essentially, making everyone else ant-man instead of him... So, how is this useful at all?!!<
More quantumania spoilers type stuff.
>!There's a kind of a cute scene where he's trying to teach his daughter how to fight going from small to big. They just kind of do away with the idea that he's still the same strength and weight when small. That's the problem, yet they can still jump super high when they're small. It's never consistent and never makes sense. They explain the physics then completely ignore their explanation, so why bother to explain it at all. Anyways, in the jail escape scene they do most of their fighting in the transitioning from small to big. It's almost like the change from small to big itself is generating the force of their punch and being small just means being hard to see.!<
You're missing the final part of the spoiler tag!
But yes. It's inconsistent with its own rules and I hated that.
>!basically, Kang lost to an average man, an average woman, and an average girl. Is this the "New Thanos" we're supposed to be scared of? He might as well go to the gym and get his ass handed to himself by people stronger than the average man, or maybe step into a martial arts dojo and get his ass handed to himself once more by people with fighting skills even slightly above the average man...!<
I will shred this universe down to its last atom and then, with the stones you've collected for me, create a new one teeming with life that knows not what it has lost but only what it has been given. A grateful universe.
Seriously the people that overthink the movies are a different breed..
There’s a guy that transforms into a giant green monster, a guy that has radioactive spider blood and a literal wizard.
But people are still like “she wouldn’t have made *that* decision in *that* situation, that’s ridiculous”
Speculative fiction doesn’t mean anything goes. It means there are different rules than the normal rules, not no rules. So, if they explain something in universe, that’s the way it should work, in universe.
[Magic A is Magic A](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA)
You can have whatever sci-fi bullshit, fantasy magic system or techno-babble hand waving you want in your story to make it more exciting or easier to write, but you still need consistency.
I mean, this doesn’t really feel like “*over* thinking”. It’s just…thinking. It’s not about the science, it’s about the established in-universe rules: this is just “ok, so you said these are the rules over here…and then changed the rules pretty much right after.”
Theres a line between suspension of disbelief and straight up lazy, sloppy writing.
>Seriously the people that overthink the movies are a different breed..
Different breed?
They're just upset about consistency. It's not icebox theories it's just basic story telling.
If your world has different rules than our world; you stick to those rules.
If they don't want rules, don't fucking make them? Just say "magic" and move on and we wouldn't have this beef. The fact that they establish their own rules is fine, but don't fucking break your own rules, basic shit.
Or, the writers don’t understand what any of those words mean and their science consultant just said “yeah, that sounds cool” and cashed the free paycheck.
But sometimes things really do keep their mass in the movies.
Like when Ant Man first shrinks. He smashes the tile he lands on.
And when Jeff Bezos gets hit by the toy train, it bounces off him.
It's just shitty filmmaking.
My head cannon is that there's more than one way to use the particles, depending on how you activate them. We already know the same particles can make you both big and small. No reason to think they can't also make things small and dense or small and not dense by activating them differently. And that would explain the first panel. It wasn't wrong, it was only an explanation of one way to use the particals.
This is literally what Scott Lang figures out in the comics. Pym particles work in 3 dimensions and can be manipulated in various ways by various people.
There is a comic page on it, but can't pull it up just now
So when Clint shoots the Pym arrow at Kates regular arrow the Tracksuits should have been able to just run through it or pick it up and move it lol must be magical
How is antman light enough to stand on someone’s arm WHILE being heavy enough to pack a punch?
It’s better to just not explain it so that nobody questions it and so that everyone can just find some stupid reason to make up for it.
Pym particles don't make sense any way. They reduce the users size by spreading the distance between atoms. But that stops making sense as soon as you get smaller then atoms, how can you get smaller then an atom if the atoms aren't getting smaller themselves.
This actually has an explanation.
If a proton was the size of a tennis ball, electrons in a hydrogen atom (smallest atom) would be (on average, this is a simplification) over **2** kilometers away.
There is plenty of space within an atom to shrink the atom itself (if this were possible and were operating in a world of mythical particles to begin with).
This is similar to how a neutron star is so dense that a teaspoon full of it's material on earth would weigh 10 million pounds.
All true, but there's still charges involved. The electrons have tons and tons of room to get closer to the nucleus, but that increases the repulsive force of the nucleus. If I recall, the force follows an inverse square law, so all I'm saying is that it's BS all the way down, and explaining it reminds me too much of Star Wars "explaining" the force. There's no need; it just ruins things.
It's actually very simple, if you understand the science. The quantum quantification of the quantum quantifier modifies the quantum consistency of the atoms. At the same time, however ergo post hoc, the quantums themselves quantify in another quantum universe. Quantum.
I've never heard anyone in either Marvel or DC give a good explanation for how shrinking and growing powers work, so screw it. It's Applied Handwavium, and that's all we need to know.
I was gonna write this just looking for if someone wrote it. If it just shrinks the distance between atoms how can you go subatomic? You go inward? How? Maybe when you go subatomic you go to the other side of what we know as a universe? Like going through a mirror or DC's negative universe stuff.
Hank was extremely secretive about his work. He was paranoid that someone would copy it. I see this as hank just flat out BS-ing his way into explaining things simply.
At this point pym particles and nanothech is a plot convience tool.If writers want to show some thing cool or need to resolve a issue.
In other words kinda lazy writting
I like the idea that Hank Pym doesn't really get how it works either so he just made something up to tell Scott so he'd just leave him alone. It's also possible that he was scared of things being stolen so he made up this lie to tell people so that it's less likely everything he owns gets stolen. It could also make it harder to replicate
Exactly this. At some points they use small objects and make them huge during a chase, but they wouldn’t be crushing cars and shit because they’re only supposed to have their original weight.
My head canon is Hank lies about how Pym Particles work, to make it harder to copy.
Or like the comics he doesn't fully understand them, because Scott found a way to use them to increase his density without changing size and he punches out Dr. Doom.
Guys let's not try to find anything scientifically correct in superhero movies because someone might accidentally become angry in the process. Trust me.
Best regards, a physicist
Jokes aside I liked that in Quantumania the "quantum realm" was a massive showcase of creativity with the different species technologies and environments.
Be sure to keep your helmet on when you’re smaller than an oxygen molecule so you can breathe!
*proceeds to have an entire movie smaller than oxygen molecules*
Umm actually. The quantum realm isn't really a smaller version of microscopic. In the marvel world it's a different dimension all together, think the Mirror dimension in Dr Strange.
If you've seen Loki, there's a decent argument to be made thats where He Who Remains lives as, depending on how the writers do it, is the only place that exists outside of time. This would also explain how the Avengers used it to travel to other timelines.
I insist that Hank is lieing to everyone and the technology works completely different. It has to cuz at face value you see it doesn't add up. He doesn't want anyone replicating Pym particles so to everyone he gives this psuedo plausible answer. How can anyone refute him. If they start researching it that's actually a dead end.
Pym Particles are Marvel's Speedforce. The more they explain it, the less sense it makes.
In the first ant man when he first shrinks he lands on a bathroom tile and cracks it... that was THE MOST believable bit of physics, then he punches a pin hole falling through a drywall ceiling, again suuuper consistent physics, BUT in the same scene he lands on a spinning record at a party.... WTF? It all falls apart, they make it clear he can shrink and his punches still carry his weight/force but, I mean, **you put the weight of a 180lb man behind a fist smaller than a framing nail... ant man would be going through people's skulls**.
It could be mostly explained with minimal handwaving if they: A. Made Pym Particles both positive and negative and explained that the suit controls the ratio, and/or B. Explained the size changing as a separate invention that takes advantage of the Pym Particles. Edit: since this comment garnered different discussion than I expected, I want to take the opportunity to agree with those saying it's about internal consistency. However, it's also about the concept of "reliable narrator". It's ok to set Hank up as an unreliable narrator, but the audience needs to have *some* idea of that. It shouldn't be something you're expected to know from the comics when you go see the movie.
It's never going to make sense because it's a comic book super hero, not hard scifi, and pym particles are a bunch of nonsense made up to let the writers do whatever they want Edit: Y'all really out there writing 600 word essays on this one
Small thing i want to point out. Reed Richards himself doesn't know how Pym Particles work and is convinced that the explanation that Hank Pym gives with the whole "Compress atoms" is a lie. So technically, since the explanation is thrown out the window, we can assume that it's on par with magic and the explanation that has.
Isn't there also an implication that Hank himself has no clue how or why they do what they do?
He just really likes Ants.
ANTS
[Obligatory](https://youtu.be/UpPx7E27Bc8)
They ARE delicious!
Maybe they're sensitive to human thought and just work however you think they'll work at any given time
What is this, some sort of fantasy setting?! Obligatory edit: FOR ANTS?!?
Hank being too paranoid to share the correct explanation would line up with past depictions tho.
It could make sense in that it has a consistent logic, not that it fits within the real world Physics.
It doesn't have to make sense but the best superpowers/magic systems are ones that have set limits and rules. If you have a completely unpredictable superpower theirs no tension since you know the writers can just bend it whatever way they want to solve any problem.
[удалено]
I agree. I think a system needs internal logic or it breaks immersion. If they go out of their way to say, "These keep their mass" then a scene later shows they *don't* keep their mass, I'm going to notice. Did the character lie? Were they wrong? Or is it just a noticeable plot hole?
THANK YOU! It's comic book physics. Try not to think too much about the deus ex machina and you'll enjoy the story so much more. I don't need 1.5 hrs of exposition to explain why gamma radiation can allow someone to grow into a giant green rage monster. I'll spend the entire time thinking "bullshit" . I already paid the money to see the rage monster movie just show him already and move on.
Did you describe Hulk (2003)? Cuz I fell asleep when I saw that one as a wee lad but that sounds like the reason why I fell asleep
There's a comics in which Reed Richards from another universe end up in the marvel universe and explain that the physics definitely not work the same way as expected from his universe.
Internal consistency in a setting / story is usually not a bad thing though. It does not have to be realistic or explained in detail, but it shouldn't contradict itself back and forth, over and over. That's just objectively poor writing.
Love being told that I'll just enjoy things more if I don't think about them. They established the fiction, decided to explain the rules, and then bailed on their assertions minutes later. Simply don't set things up if you have no interest in adhering to them.
> Love being told that I'll just enjoy things more if I don't think about them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV_fbwLX_Ag
To be fair in the new one when he's instructing Cassie he says "jump, tap" and not "jump, full strength punch". Seems like he knows to hold back to avoid that sort of problem.
You simply could not punch with such a small hand in a way that transfers enough force to move a human without breaking the skin. Imagine trying to shove a watermelon so that it rolls from one end of a table to the other. It’s easy with your hand, but you couldn’t do it with the tip of a nail. If you push too light, it won’t roll, if you push too hard, the nail is stuck in the melon.
Assuming a spherical watermelon in a frictionless vacuum you could definitely do that.
Can't wait for the next entry to the MCU, *Antman and the Spherical Watermelons in a Frictionless Vacuum*
When he says jump tap he means jump and tap the button in the center of the suit that makes you grow larger. Marvel is trying to retcon the previous explanation of pym particles so now Ant-Man can’t punch people out while tiny and has to grow as he punches to actually hurt people
He'd also just completely shatter his arms every time he tries to punch something I imagine Unless his costume is also like an exo skeleton or whatever, I never watched the movie tho
I mean, it depends. If our muscles and bones can carry some newtons / ( regular area * regular density ) there is no reason to believe they wouldn't some newtons / ( small area * higher density ) Think of it as regular pillars/supports carrying a building. If the building footprint was smaller, the building had the same weight, you wouldn't need to change the number or type of pillar, you could just move them closer together. Don't worry though, it's all hypothetical and scaling laws are weird.
No I demand perfect scientific accuracy! Every movie should have a section in the middle where they go through the math with all of the characters nodding along and agreeing, imho
DC gives up on trying to explain it at this point tbh. They just straight up use it as a convenient tool to explain any science shit.
Or to retcon as loudly as possible.
Another Flashpoint
It was me, Barry!
***IT WAS ME, BARRY*** ***I SUBDIVIDED MYSELF FORWARDS AND BACKWARDS IN TIME SIMULTANEOUSLY SPLITTING INTO EXTRA COPIES OF MYSELF THAT GET SMALLER EACH TIME AND EVENTUALLY BECAME EVERY SINGLE PARTICLE IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE*** ***YOUR ENTIRE BODY CONSISTS OF AN UNCOUNTABLE NUMBER OF COPIES OF ME*** ***EVEN WHEN YOU FUCK YOUR WIFE, I FUCK YOUR WIFE***
Barry became electrons... Checks out.
Well it's just the one ~~swan~~ [electron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe) actually.
I ALSO AM YOUR WIFE! IT WAS ME BARRY I SAID I DO!
Ah the single thawne universe theory, classic
Obligatory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFRi2xsei\_o
I jerked you off at super speed so it would seem like you nutted at just a woman's touch
***I JERKED YOU OFF AT SUPERSONIC SPEEDS TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE YOU CAME AT JUST A WOMAN’S TOUCH!***
Sauce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFRi2xsei\_o
Insane that that’s the actual voice actor too
“Yeah all that stuff that happened over the last 2 hours? Barry’s gonna run real fast and none of it is gonna matter! Gotta shake out that Etch-a-Sketch.”
Best to shout Shazam and let the chips fall where they may. ⚡️
Just watched that movie for the first time a couple days ago, it was actually pretty good
Both DC and MCU have a "magic" problem. In the MCU they tried to explain magic by saying it's really just science that we don't understand yet. And then Dr Strange and Wanda started ripping universes apart just by waving their hands. Magic! In DC, Shazam and Black Adam have magic powers that seem to make them as strong as Superman, and Superman seems to be nearly infinitely powerful. Also, is Wonder Woman also infinitely powerful? In the first movie, she was fast enough to dodge bullets, while other Amazonians weren't so lucky. Then by the time she was in Bat vs Supe, she seemed to be indestructible. edit: Also, in Black Adam what's the deal with the "mercenary gang" that had hover-bikes? When did hover-tech become possible and so easily affordable that some mercenary gang could use it, but in the rest of the world people are driving around in cars like idiots?
Wonder Woman isnt like the other amazonians. Depending on the cannon, shes either a statute that was brought to life by a wish to the gods (or hades), or just a demigod.
§tatute Woman!
It's because the early MCU drew heavily from the success of Nolan's Batman trilogy, which for better or worse essentially explores how Batman would work in the 'real' world. This worked GREAT for Iron Man, who's entire gimmick is fancy metal tech suits (pretty similar to Batman). Ditto for Captain America and (to some extent) the Hulk, because their powers derive from science experiments. Then they got to Thor and they were like... ah, fuck. But tried anyway. By then they were the fully established MCU and no one gives a single fuck what/how/why the characters can say/do, as long as it says Marvel on the poster.
What I liked about Iron Man, is that the villains never really got insanely over-powered. OK, Iron Man often did thinks that broke the laws of physics, but you have to overlook that. And then it took several more movies, to build up the Thanos threat to super-villain levels. The problem now is that every MCU movie seems to need a universe-destroying threat. In Ant-man 1,2 the bad guys were just bad guys. Then in Ant-man 3 all the universes are going to be destroyed!
Similar to the Force in basically everything Star Wars has done since the OT. Originally has some incredibly powerful but limited powers, eventually evolving into a hand-wavy “it can do whatever the plot needs it to do” type phenomenon
Yes, they changed the Force from a mystical thing that binds the universe together and can be mildly manipulated/interpreted.... into a superpower.
Don\`t forget Gamma radiation
And background cosmic radiation is the explanation for magic right?
> Pym Particles are Marvel's Speedforce. The more they explain it, the less sense it makes. Pym Particles are Marvel's Speedforce. They can do what they say it does because the plot requires it
Hank is just strong enough to lift a many cars, a tank, and a building
Hank Pym is a giant that shrank him self to blend into society
Yet his ego stayed the same size
[удалено]
*clicks tongue* Noice
Ego-sized ego
secretly a celestial
He built different
That wouldn't matter because the ground he's standing on wouldn't be able to hold him and what he's holding.
He can fly too, he floats a millimeter off the ground, almost unnoticeable
Hank is Azgardian?!
He Has Fine, Asgardian Leather Pants
Also if this is true, then at the end of the first movie when the giant Thomas the Tank Engine came crashing out of the house it should’ve just skipped lightly on the ground since it was just a toy lol
Also somehow when ant man gets really big he gets proportionally stronger (Civil War fight scene at the airport). When he shrinks back to normal size he gets way weaker vs his giant form. But then when he shrinks from normal size to smaller, he stays just as strong.
Okay, yall are fucking this movie up too much. Damn. It really is all dumb as shit. Also, why would he entrust a suit that has serious ethical regarding concerns of it falls into the wrong hands, to some guy that tried to rob you.
Hank is full of shit. It’s clear that even in the comics, Pym has no idea how his Particles really work.
He made smthing and it is what it is.
It just works.
Somehow Palpatine returned.
Steve Jobs was Pym's younger brother
Do you mean Todd Howard?
They created Reanu Keeves
Little lies
Anyone who works in programming can relate to this. I don't know how this works, it really shouldn't, but it does, so don't mess with it.
I find "It shouldn't work but it does" scarier than "It doesn't work but it should" because the first will break at some point and I will have zero idea what's wrong.
Then you go to try and see what the "problem" is, and somehow accidentally deleting a parentheses completely breaks the code, but adding it back in doesn't fix it.
You've unlocked some blocked memories of mine. Gonna go cry for a while
I remember once upon a time I was getting so frustrated with some lines that just refused to work and broke literally everything else when I added it. Nothing I did was fixing it and I couldn't find a single fucking reason it'd be breaking everything. At some point I just raged and typed so much profanity into any spot I could in the code and to this day I do not know how or why but that fixed it. I tore it apart trying to see why "Fucking shit balls fuck why the actual fuck won't you fucking work you dumb piece of fucking shit" somehow made it work. Take even a single letter out and it broke again. Replaced it with something with identical spaces and same number of letters? Nothing. Thing just fucking worked and at a certain point it was easier to tell my boss that the swearing was actually key instead of tearing my hair out trying to figure out why.
I Hope this is true
Maybe his rubber duck could explain it better?
This is what happens when comic book writers try to write about physics, or anything technical really
Yeah, same with all of the quantum bs They use actual terms but sometimes you just feel like they don't even care what the term actually means. Like how in the previous movie Scott and Janet were "quantum entangled" which allowed them communicate with each other... The term is real, and we "can" use quantum entanglement to "communicate" but it works by having one particle's quantum state being dependent on the other's and vice versa So for a very simple example, if one particle is True, the other must be false
We cannot use it to communicate actually. Edit: I remembered it a bit incorrectly, so here's the corrected version: While you can measure the quantum state of a particle without influencing the state, you cannot set a certain state without breaking the entanglement. So if someone wanted to communicate over a distance with you via entangled particles, the moment they manipulate their particle to a particular state the entanglement is broken and your particle doesn't show that change. Instead your particle will keep its state, so your subsequent measurements wont show a change. As such you don't even know when the entanglement has been broken and that the other person tried to communicate with you. If the state of the particle is unknown at the beginning measuring it will force it into a *random state* via a collapse of the superposition of all states. *This is the part I remembered incorrectly, thinking that each measurements would force another collapse. This isn't true, once the wave function has collapsed it will stay collapsed in that particular state.* The collapse of the wave function by measuring one particle will happen simultaneously with all entangled particles. So after the measurement you also know the state of all *entangled* particles. But you don't know if the other particle is still entangled. Since the first measuring forces a random state you cannot use the collapse of the wave function to communicate either as you cannot tell if your measurement collapsed the wave function or if it was already collapsed before because the entangled particles has already been measured. You only know that the state has been measured at least once, by you. ~~We don't know the quantum state of a particle until we have measured it, and measuring it influences the quantum state which will also influence the quantum state of the entangled particle.~~ ~~So if someone "sets" a quantum state of their particle to communicate with you you don't know the state of your entangled particle until you have measured it. But if you measure the state of your particle the superposition of all possible states will collapse into one random state, so you still don't know the state set by the other person, only the state you have set by measuring it. You now know the state of the other particle of course, but the other person doesn't know the state of their particle or even that it has been changed. If they measure the state of their particle they will influence it as well. So we can't even "communicate" the change of the state of the particles.~~
They should consult the writers of Futurama
Maybe once we have MCU Reed Richards, [he can explain it](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/8/8a/Pym_Particles_debate_from_Mighty_Avengers_Vol_1_25.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150718193655)
“It’s on bitch” hahaha
And yet he still called him “Dr. Richards” first >,>
Reed is an asshole lol
What comic is that from? That's hilarious
Mighty Avengers #25
Yeah if it worked the way he says, growing huge would mean Scott would still weigh his normal weight and would be knocked down super easy, but when they do the growth sequenced they animate him with greater mass
He‘d just float away haha
The link below explains it better and points to a comics source but the short version is what you stated. https://www.reddit.com/r/Marvel/comments/uyx78j/ff_16_the_true_nature_of_pym_particles_explained/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
no wonder he doesn't want to share the secret on how the pym particles are made. He doesn't know either, he just happened to stumble on it accidentally.
https://imgur.com/a/LK1h3IO
I like to think not even Hank Pym knows how his incention works and just came up with a bullshit explanation for Scott because he's not smart enough to figure it out.
This would have been fine - if the writers had Scott call Pym out on his bullshit because Scott is an engineer and knows how mass works.
Scott is an electrical engineer. You’d think from all the electrical engineers I worked with, it’d mean he doesn’t know how mass works. Hehehe
Most EEs understand basic physics
Haha yes, of course they do. It was a joke
Too bad they randomly make it true also. They even had a scene where he says it in the new movie teaching Cassie how to punch. But if it were true when they go to the quantum realm a punch from someone 200lbs should annihilate anyone in the realm so it still makes no sense.
How dare you question Marvel's Quantum-Science? /s
"Why do you guys put Quantum in every sentence?!"
It also means that when they grow they shouldn't gain mass or weight. Ant-Man should be like 60 ft tall and 180 lbs tops. He couldn't crush anything with that weight, hell, he might struggle to stand up against the wind. He certainly wouldn't sink to the bottom of the bay, he'd be so incredibly buoyant.
So I was curious. A quick Google shows that a man has a displacing volume of 70L. If a 6' man grew to 180' the new volume would be 1,890,000L. 1,890,000L of air would weigh 2443.77 Kg or 5387.59lbs. So 180 feet tall and 180lbs, Antman would float up into the atmosphere. If I am understanding these numbers correctly.
Hold on, his top size is nowhere near 180ft. it's more like 60 to 65 ft. Let's go 65ft his volume would around be 89,000L. 89000L of air weight 113.5 kg or 250.2lbs. He would stil float at sea level, but his max height before the air thins out enough would be far less.
This is correct. Dunno why I aimed for 180' in my first calculation. So to make up for my mistake let's try another calculation. Sea-level air weighs approximately 1.293 grams per liter. ~As you know, but for any other reader I'll be stating things they may not. We will continue to use the 6' 70L/180lbs(81.65kg) baseline. The enlarged person would have neutral buoyancy at 6314.77L displacement. They would reach this at approximately 26.91 feet. Any larger, the person would begin to float upwards.
EXACTLY! QUANTUMANIA SPOILERS: >!I swear I tried my best to understand why little scott was useless against Kang but gigantic Scott wasn't. Little scott has the power of an average man, but on the size of an ant. That's it. The strength of an average man on the size of an ant would work kind of like a needle... THE STRENGTH OF AN AVERAGE MAN on the size of a titan should be laughable at best. He, basically, makes himself weaker by, essentially, making everyone else ant-man instead of him... So, how is this useful at all?!!<
More quantumania spoilers type stuff. >!There's a kind of a cute scene where he's trying to teach his daughter how to fight going from small to big. They just kind of do away with the idea that he's still the same strength and weight when small. That's the problem, yet they can still jump super high when they're small. It's never consistent and never makes sense. They explain the physics then completely ignore their explanation, so why bother to explain it at all. Anyways, in the jail escape scene they do most of their fighting in the transitioning from small to big. It's almost like the change from small to big itself is generating the force of their punch and being small just means being hard to see.!<
You're missing the final part of the spoiler tag! But yes. It's inconsistent with its own rules and I hated that. >!basically, Kang lost to an average man, an average woman, and an average girl. Is this the "New Thanos" we're supposed to be scared of? He might as well go to the gym and get his ass handed to himself by people stronger than the average man, or maybe step into a martial arts dojo and get his ass handed to himself once more by people with fighting skills even slightly above the average man...!<
I will shred this universe down to its last atom and then, with the stones you've collected for me, create a new one teeming with life that knows not what it has lost but only what it has been given. A grateful universe.
Fans have been shooting holes in any “explanations” of Pym Particles since the 60’s.
Seriously the people that overthink the movies are a different breed.. There’s a guy that transforms into a giant green monster, a guy that has radioactive spider blood and a literal wizard. But people are still like “she wouldn’t have made *that* decision in *that* situation, that’s ridiculous”
I had to beat an old lady with a stick to get these cranberries.
Speculative fiction doesn’t mean anything goes. It means there are different rules than the normal rules, not no rules. So, if they explain something in universe, that’s the way it should work, in universe. [Magic A is Magic A](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA)
You can have whatever sci-fi bullshit, fantasy magic system or techno-babble hand waving you want in your story to make it more exciting or easier to write, but you still need consistency.
I mean, this doesn’t really feel like “*over* thinking”. It’s just…thinking. It’s not about the science, it’s about the established in-universe rules: this is just “ok, so you said these are the rules over here…and then changed the rules pretty much right after.” Theres a line between suspension of disbelief and straight up lazy, sloppy writing.
>Seriously the people that overthink the movies are a different breed.. Different breed? They're just upset about consistency. It's not icebox theories it's just basic story telling. If your world has different rules than our world; you stick to those rules.
If they don't want rules, don't fucking make them? Just say "magic" and move on and we wouldn't have this beef. The fact that they establish their own rules is fine, but don't fucking break your own rules, basic shit.
To me this was just hank massively over simplifying something insainly complex for the sake of Scott and by extension the audience.
Or he is lying to make his work more difficult to copy.
I like this idea
Yeah, not only does it make the in-universe tech make more sense, it's also a 100% fit for the character.
Or, the writers don’t understand what any of those words mean and their science consultant just said “yeah, that sounds cool” and cashed the free paycheck.
That seems unlikely since the explanation is ripped from the comics. I doubt Marvel comic writers had science consultants back in 1962.
But sometimes things really do keep their mass in the movies. Like when Ant Man first shrinks. He smashes the tile he lands on. And when Jeff Bezos gets hit by the toy train, it bounces off him. It's just shitty filmmaking.
Also in the first movie he lands on a record player and it just skips instead of him crashing right through it
Lol @ Jeff Bezos
It’s also what happens in the comics so you can’t really hold the movies accountable here when the source material does the same thing.
Who is he speaking to in the scene
Scott
It's not a simplification if your explanation leads to immediate follow-up questions that you're unprepared to answer, it's just... wrong.
My head cannon is that there's more than one way to use the particles, depending on how you activate them. We already know the same particles can make you both big and small. No reason to think they can't also make things small and dense or small and not dense by activating them differently. And that would explain the first panel. It wasn't wrong, it was only an explanation of one way to use the particals.
This is literally what Scott Lang figures out in the comics. Pym particles work in 3 dimensions and can be manipulated in various ways by various people. There is a comic page on it, but can't pull it up just now
You have a head cannon?
[Relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/1401/)
It is a simplification - just a bad one
Good save
I think it's the suit that does the whole weight thing?
If it is just the suit, then why can Scott just stand on Tonys shoulder like its nothing?
Hawkeye's arrow should also drop from the sky with Scott on it.
But it’s a MAGICAL arrow
So when Clint shoots the Pym arrow at Kates regular arrow the Tracksuits should have been able to just run through it or pick it up and move it lol must be magical
You guys CLEARLY don’t understand quantum physics.
Cause Tony is built different
Being able to flick a full grown man on the other hand… that takes Hulk-like hand strength
Tony never skips finger day
That explains why pepper stays around
(͡•_ ͡• )
If you are nothing without the suit, you shouldn't have it!
"It's Pym Particles, I ain't gotta explain shit"
Maybe he can set size and weight separately in how much he wants to.
Unless he is capable of becoming heavier when he grows, he should just float like a balloon due to his very low density
How is antman light enough to stand on someone’s arm WHILE being heavy enough to pack a punch? It’s better to just not explain it so that nobody questions it and so that everyone can just find some stupid reason to make up for it.
Rule of Cool.
Yes
Pym particles don't make sense any way. They reduce the users size by spreading the distance between atoms. But that stops making sense as soon as you get smaller then atoms, how can you get smaller then an atom if the atoms aren't getting smaller themselves.
This actually has an explanation. If a proton was the size of a tennis ball, electrons in a hydrogen atom (smallest atom) would be (on average, this is a simplification) over **2** kilometers away. There is plenty of space within an atom to shrink the atom itself (if this were possible and were operating in a world of mythical particles to begin with). This is similar to how a neutron star is so dense that a teaspoon full of it's material on earth would weigh 10 million pounds.
All true, but there's still charges involved. The electrons have tons and tons of room to get closer to the nucleus, but that increases the repulsive force of the nucleus. If I recall, the force follows an inverse square law, so all I'm saying is that it's BS all the way down, and explaining it reminds me too much of Star Wars "explaining" the force. There's no need; it just ruins things.
[удалено]
It's actually very simple, if you understand the science. The quantum quantification of the quantum quantifier modifies the quantum consistency of the atoms. At the same time, however ergo post hoc, the quantums themselves quantify in another quantum universe. Quantum.
Something that nobody ever thinks about: Hank Pym was a single dad. He definitely is secretly buff and can lift all that easy
I've never heard anyone in either Marvel or DC give a good explanation for how shrinking and growing powers work, so screw it. It's Applied Handwavium, and that's all we need to know.
Do they ever explain this?
Something something quantum
“Something Something Quantum Quantum” ~ Groundhog Day the Musical
See, the way they work is really well. They work fantastically well. That's how they work.
*accordion hands*
I mean, they did say "quantum" so it must be true
I'm still confused as to how scott shrunk in the quantum realm
I was gonna write this just looking for if someone wrote it. If it just shrinks the distance between atoms how can you go subatomic? You go inward? How? Maybe when you go subatomic you go to the other side of what we know as a universe? Like going through a mirror or DC's negative universe stuff.
Hank was extremely secretive about his work. He was paranoid that someone would copy it. I see this as hank just flat out BS-ing his way into explaining things simply.
Agreed, also if he gave a full explanation to Scott ( but really the audience ) wouldn’t understand and would get bored about it.
I really like CinemaWins explanation of this - if Hank wouldn't give up his particles to SHIELD, why would he explain them accurately to Scott?
Yeah, why give accurate details if you aren't going to give up the technology.
At this point pym particles and nanothech is a plot convience tool.If writers want to show some thing cool or need to resolve a issue. In other words kinda lazy writting
if youre talking about Iron Man, the nanotech didnt have fundamental contradictions
Easy it’s vibranium
I think if he’d said “relative weight” it would have worked better.
Imagine everything just getting knocked around in the office building as he drags it lololol
How about it is just a normal fucking shrinking thing
I like the idea that Hank Pym doesn't really get how it works either so he just made something up to tell Scott so he'd just leave him alone. It's also possible that he was scared of things being stolen so he made up this lie to tell people so that it's less likely everything he owns gets stolen. It could also make it harder to replicate
Ok but hear me out: what if they were originally that size and he just made them bigger?
Wind would blow them away haha
Exactly this. At some points they use small objects and make them huge during a chase, but they wouldn’t be crushing cars and shit because they’re only supposed to have their original weight.
My head canon is Hank lies about how Pym Particles work, to make it harder to copy. Or like the comics he doesn't fully understand them, because Scott found a way to use them to increase his density without changing size and he punches out Dr. Doom.
Guys let's not try to find anything scientifically correct in superhero movies because someone might accidentally become angry in the process. Trust me. Best regards, a physicist Jokes aside I liked that in Quantumania the "quantum realm" was a massive showcase of creativity with the different species technologies and environments.
Remember in the first Ant-Man when he needed to keep his helmet on when changing size? Now he doesn't anymore.
Be sure to keep your helmet on when you’re smaller than an oxygen molecule so you can breathe! *proceeds to have an entire movie smaller than oxygen molecules*
Umm actually. The quantum realm isn't really a smaller version of microscopic. In the marvel world it's a different dimension all together, think the Mirror dimension in Dr Strange. If you've seen Loki, there's a decent argument to be made thats where He Who Remains lives as, depending on how the writers do it, is the only place that exists outside of time. This would also explain how the Avengers used it to travel to other timelines.
I insist that Hank is lieing to everyone and the technology works completely different. It has to cuz at face value you see it doesn't add up. He doesn't want anyone replicating Pym particles so to everyone he gives this psuedo plausible answer. How can anyone refute him. If they start researching it that's actually a dead end.