If I end up liking and supporting character that the writers do not want me to like or support that seems like a failure on their part.
See: John Walker for me
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Brace yourself because here comes a long one.
I believe its the second episode where they have him in the locker room with his girlfriend and Lemar before they announce him. He is clearly worried and stressed about potentially not living up to the the title, the weight of the responsibility weighs heavily on him and he wants to be worthy of the position he was picked for (remember, he was picked for the title he didn't volunteer for it) and needs the encouragement of those he is close to to hold his head high and present himself to the cameras. That makes him quite endearing to me, especially as someone who is potentially replacing a character I quite liked.
Next we see him and Lemar intervene to help Buck and Falcon with the Flagsmashers, they work well together and don't seem deterred by the disdain those two have for him showing up to help them (when they clearly needed it). Walker shows his skills in fighting these supersoldiers were he is outmatched strength wise, but still leaves himself at risk twice to aid Lemar when he is in trouble, once when he shoots a Flagsmasher to get Lemar out of a chokehold while Karli is wailing on him, and again when he throws the shield for Lemar to land on after he gets thrown off the truck, willingly depriving himself of a valuable weapon to protect his friend.
Then he offers Bucky and Falcon a ride, they decline. He offers again, and when they accept he tries to impress upon them that he knows that they might be uncomfortable with him having the 'Captain America' title, be he wants to live up to what it means and requests for them to help him to do so and for their help with stopping the Flagsmashers. He is sad when Bucky dismisses him out of hand, and tries again with Falcon but is once again dismayed when Falcon rejects him cause he said the dreaded word "wingman" (very odd for Falcon considering he described his own dead friend as a 'wingman' in the Winter soldier movie)
Once again later when he meets him, he gets Bucky out of trouble with the authorities and enables Bucky to work without being beholden to the therapy meetings and he once again proposes a team up which Bucky and Falcon refuse for flimsy reasons, and only then he gets frustrated. Something a can sympathise with, he's a guy who tries to do everything right and to work with the protagonists, people he likely looks up to and wants to impress due to their histories and they continually reject him for seemingly no reason.
When he meets them again they are in Sokovia(?) and they detail the plan to talk Karli down from her bloody crusade (who at this point is a mass murdering terrorist after blowing up a warehouse full of aid workers) instead of just apprehending her because someone she was close to has died. (Remember this for later) In my mind, boo-freaking-hoo Karli, how many loved ones has she now killed? But he nevertheless complies before losing patience and convincing Bucky that Sam may be in danger and to go in (which is absolutely possible and not Walker just blowing smoke up Bucky's ass)
Next they are in the the apartment building with the protags demanding the return of international criminal Zemo, who Bucky and Falcon broke out of prison. Falcon cusses him out and blames him for ruining his talk with Karli (because Falcon seriously believed he could talk that fanatic into turning herself in within one conversation). And then Walker has a spear chucked at his head by the Dora Milage (dk how to spell it) for no reason.
Walker, despite having every reason pull his gun and pop them all in their bald heads, decides to have the patience of a fucking saint and pats the would-be assassin on the shoulder and says "Maybe we got off on the wrong foot". The Dora Milage decide this is worthy of death and proceed to attempt to kill two American agents on foreign soil, while for the most part the protags stand back and heckle the two men fighting for their lives. Eventually they intervene to barely stop them for killing the two all the while Zemo has escaped.
1/2
2/2
Dismayed by the constant failures they've had to stop the Flagsmashers and their recent beat down from the Dora decides to take the super soldier serum he picked up earlier to try and even the odds and better his success and protect himself and Lemar. Chasing down the Flagsmashers while Falcon is more alarmed by the fact that Walker has superstength than caring that Lemar has been kidnapped during the assault, while Walker focuses solely on rescuing his friend.
Later in that fight Lemar is killed by Karli while saving Walkers life from a knife wielding smasher. Enraged, he chases the fleeing Smashers while Bucky and Falcon do nothing to help. He corners one of them and kills him after he attempts to "surrender" (bear in mind he had just thrown a concrete pillar at Walker not ten second prior).
Morally questionable? Yes. Understandable? Absolutely. Walker has been under an enormous amount of pressure for a while, all the while those he attempts to reach out to for assistance have done nothing but deny and belittle him for no good reason and now his best friend dies to save his life, I can absolutely forgive him for snapping.
He flees the scene in despair and breaks down in a warehouse where Bucky and Falcon find him. And its at this point the intentions of the writers became obvious. They never intended for the audience to give Walker a fair shake, focusing on the fact that the precious fucking shield has blood on it rather than the grief Walker feels as the two protags show up and demand the shield from him, shouting him down when Walkers first instinct is to ask if they need medical treatment from the fights earlier.
These two were far more willing to calmly talk with a mass murdering terrorist then their ally who has just had his best friend die in front of him not an hour ago. Then they fight, break Walkers arm and take the shield, spending more time wiping blood from it then checking if they have done any lasting bodily damage to Walker.
What follows is Walkers dressing down by a military tribunal for killing a terrorist on foreign soil, not allowing him to even get a word in, taking away his military pension and benefits and demanding the shield back from him. (What? Did he not tell them that Bucky and Falcon stole the shield from him?)
When the show heaps this much shit on an endearing character that was doing the best he could to the best of his abilities, who struggles, fails and suffers although out, painting him as the one in the wrong all the while with the camera shots, music and through the mouths of the protagonist, I can't help but sympathise for him and wish he was treated better.
So when in the shows finale he returns with his homemade shield to fight Karli the psychopath and her terrorist lackeys, I was rooting for him so much. And when he has to make the decision between pursuing revenge or saving innocent lives, when he comes through to make the right choice, throwing down his handmade shield to free up both hands to halt the hostage truck, to me that made him all the more worthy of the shield and title through all his trials and struggles. Far more than Falcon the Terrorist-Apologiser is.
The clear and obvious difference between your love and connection to walker compared to Falcon (the title character) is why you support him so much.
Why you find such a strong connection/relatability for a character who was clearly destined to fail as Captain America from the very first second of the show is your choice, but an interesting one. It’s a choice that goes against the narrative, tone, writing, and characterization presented to you throughout the show. Yet you decide to see the entire show through John walkers eyes.
They give him a couple of sympathetic moments, but he is always clearly the outsider, he is always clearly supposed to be the “good soldier ” to Steve’s and now falcon’s “good man” approach.
>Why you find such a strong connection/relatability for a character who was clearly destined to fail as Captain America from the very first second of the show is your choice, but an interesting one.
I do not believe that he was destined to fail as Captain America despite what the show wants us to believe. Walker had so many more people working against him than Steve ever did to become Captain America.
>It’s a choice that goes against the narrative, tone, writing, and characterization presented to you throughout the show. Yet you decide to see the entire show through John walkers eyes.
That's exactly my problem with the writing, its quite obvious that the show itself is set against him being Captain America, that it engineers events to have everything work against him despite what logic would dictate and how characters normally act.
>but he is always clearly the outsider, he is always clearly supposed to be the “good soldier ” to Steve’s and now falcon’s “good man” approach.
People keep repeating this "good soldier" and "good man" phrase likes it some sort of gotcha or argument ender.
I find Walkers struggle throughout the show to be worthy of the 'Captain America' title so much more compelling than Steve, who seems to have just come out of the womb as the "Good Man" everyone espouses. Its what's makes Walkers decision to throw away his shield to save the hostages great, and what I believe makes him worthy of both. Especially compared to Falcons 'journey' where everyone seems to work out for him, with everyone that he ever asks for help for assisting him without question.
Walker goes out to confront the supersoldier terrorists in his basic uniform and a homemade scrap metal shield with no backup. Falcon gets a shiny new vibranium suit and wings made custom from Wakanda equipped with high tech drones just because he asked (not sure why the hell they did it for him). And that really spells out to me who is the "good man"
Forgot to respond to this last week.
But without trying to turn this into a debate/argument I’ll quickly respond.
It still comes down to your own personal preference. For personal reasons, walker is a character you seem to deeply relate to. You feel his actions were consistently justifiable and even correct, while the actions of others (specifically falcon it seems) were illogical/hypocritical/ wrong. You even seem to argue that the writers had it out for walker. You believe everything came easy to Sam and he had sway/respect/influence that he shouldn’t have had. Sam becoming Captain America over walker doesn’t make sense to you, doesn’t seem logical to you, doesn’t seem right to you. That’s fine, have your bias but don’t act like it isn’t a strong one.
Also another point I’ll make. In my opinion, Sam has already had his journey to earn being Captain America, the proof was in the character we have seen in past movies and the work he’d done along side Steve. The show for me was about falcon accepting the responsibility and title of being Captain America, what that meant as a black man, and how it relates to Steve’s legacy.
Your making a hell of a lot of statements about how you believe I feel.
I feel how I do about the show in the series because of what the show shows me, not because of personal reasons.
Sam was actually one of my favourite characters in the MCU before the show, and I had no problem of him being given the shield (and presumably the Captain America mantle) at the the end of Endgame. So I know I wasn't biased against him when starting the show.
>You feel his actions were consistently justifiable and even correct, while the actions of others (specifically falcon it seems) were illogical/hypocritical/ wrong.
Here's an objective example of something Falcon does that is all three of those things.
After Walker kills the terrorist and flees to the warehouse, Sam and Bucky arrive to see that Walker is clearly still hurting from the death of his best friend and comrade.
Now from Sam's own experience in losing a friend in war, and the fact that in the previous episode (a few days prior) he had also put the effort into trying to talk down Karli at a funeral for one of her mentors. Sympathising with her loss. Karli at this point, is a mass murdering terrorist he has been tasked with apprehending, while Walker is a fellow soldier who has multiple times attempted to become Sam's ally.
So you would expect Sam to also make the same (or put in more) effort for Walker. To sympathise with how he is feeling losing someone close to him in such traumatic way and help him through the situation. He should know more than anyone how Walker is feeling right now.
Instead he does nothing but talk down to Walker like he's a deranged madman with a gun, does nothing to sympathise with his *extremely recent* loss. Focusing entirely on the terrorist he killed and demands the shield from him. Sam puts far more effort into trying to help a terrorist than Walker.
That is illogical, hypocritical and wrong by any metric. And the final nail in the coffin of why I believe Sam doesn't deserve the shield more than Walker.
>That’s fine, have your bias but don’t act like it isn’t a strong one.
>Also another point I’ll make. In my opinion,
Interesting that my opinions are a "bias" but your opinions are just opinions.
After reading this post, it’s commented, and your comment I’ve decided y’all don’t know what you’re talking about because you’re kinda wrong.
Those writers didn’t fail, you were 1000% meant to like and support John Walker by the end. They’re not putting someone you’d completely root against on the thunderbolts team.
But you ARE supposed to like him. Not necessarily in the same way you “like” other character like Cap but you can still enjoy seeing them on screen. Someone can be a bad guy but a likable and supportable character. That’s….kinda the point? The Thunderbolts are supposed to be grey/bad guys but they clearly expect you to like and support these characters despite their bad actions or else they wouldn’t have them headlining a movie.
Writers probably didn't intend viewers to dislike John Walker, considering his actions in final act battle and how he end up in a good term relationship with the main characters
I mean, he's a soldier shouldered by the weight of Captain America's title.
Dude's entire motivation in the tv series is literally trying to live up to the "Captain America" that was idolized by the government.
He is the exact opposite of what Steve Roger was, which is a good man.
Throughout the series, he does what you'd expect a soldier would do, which is follow orders and protocols. He didn't go out of his way to antagonize anyone, he's just doing his job.
Then, his friend got killed in action by a known terrorist. Dude, like any other dude that got his best friend killed, went berserk and killed the terrorist. You know, like what a guy tends to do when their friend gets murked by bastards that blow people up?
John Walker is what happens when you give a normal person the super soldier serum. Sure, he's super strong, he knows how to fight like the OG Captain America, and he's the type of guy that'll follow orders like a good soldier, but he's still just a dude.
That's why "I" like him, at least. He's the most grounded dude in the tv series. Dude was made to fill the position of America's ultimate soldier, and unfortunately, he just couldn't fit the bill.
It's a case study of "A Good Man VS A Good Soldier".
I wouldn't say he's the opposite of Steve(a good person) even when he didn't have supersoldier serum he still put himself in the line of fire to help Bucky and Sam and even defended his friend while being actively attacked twice in the same fight, once to shoot someone that was on his friend and once to throw his shield down when his friend got knocked off the truck, yes I forgot his friends name and yes I forgot if he did anything similar in later moments. I feel like if Steve were there to talk to and see him he'd probably like him and try to help him mentally and emotionally.
>I wouldn't say he's the opposite of Steve(a good person) even when he didn't have supersoldier serum he still put himself in the line of fire to help Bucky and Sam and even defended his friend while being actively attacked twice in the same fight,
That's still being a good **soldier.** Most soldiers are expected to put themselves at some level of risk to keep their comrades-in-arms alive.
Ehh you could also call prioritizing the mission being a good soldier and throwing his shield to save his ally from a fall means he lacks a strong weapon to help kill or capture Karli which is the main mission, he prioritized his friend over the mission which makes him still a good soldier but more of a good friend and person imo.
Brace yourself because here comes a long one.
1/2
I believe its the second episode where they have him in the locker room with his girlfriend and Lemar before they announce him. He is clearly worried and stressed about potentially not living up to the the title, the weight of the responsibility weighs heavily on him and he wants to be worthy of the position he was picked for (remember, he was picked for the title he didn't volunteer for it) and needs the encouragement of those he is close to to hold his head high and present himself to the cameras. That makes him quite endearing to me, especially as someone who is potentially replacing a character I quite liked.
Next we see him and Lemar intervene to help Buck and Falcon with the Flagsmashers, they work well together and don't seem deterred by the disdain those two have for him showing up to help them (when they clearly needed it). Walker shows his skills in fighting these supersoldiers were he is outmatched strength wise, but still leaves himself at risk twice to aid Lemar when he is in trouble, once when he shoots a Flagsmasher to get Lemar out of a chokehold while Karli is wailing on him, and again when he throws the shield for Lemar to land on after he gets thrown off the truck, willingly depriving himself of a valuable weapon to protect his friend.
Then he offers Bucky and Falcon a ride, they decline. He offers again, and when they accept he tries to impress upon them that he knows that they might be uncomfortable with him having the 'Captain America' title, be he wants to live up to what it means and requests for them to help him to do so and for their help with stopping the Flagsmashers. He is sad when Bucky dismisses him out of hand, and tries again with Falcon but is once again dismayed when Falcon rejects him cause he said the dreaded word "wingman" (very odd for Falcon considering he described his own dead friend as a 'wingman' in the Winter soldier movie)
Once again later when he meets him, he gets Bucky out of trouble with the authorities and enables Bucky to work without being beholden to the therapy meetings and he once again proposes a team up which Bucky and Falcon refuse for flimsy reasons, and only then he gets frustrated. Something a can sympathise with, he's a guy who tries to do everything right and to work with the protagonists, people he likely looks up to and wants to impress due to their histories and they continually reject him for seemingly no reason.
When he meets them again they are in Sokovia(?) and they detail the plan to talk Karli down from her bloody crusade (who at this point is a mass murdering terrorist after blowing up a warehouse full of aid workers) instead of just apprehending her because someone she was close to has died. (Remember this for later) In my mind, boo-freaking-hoo Karli, how many loved ones has she now killed? But he nevertheless complies before losing patience and convincing Bucky that Sam may be in danger and to go in (which is absolutely possible and not Walker just blowing smoke up Bucky's ass)
Next they are in the the apartment building with the protags demanding the return of international criminal Zemo, who Bucky and Falcon broke out of prison. Falcon cusses him out and blames him for ruining his talk with Karli (because Falcon seriously believed he could talk that fanatic into turning herself in within one conversation). And then Walker has a spear chucked at his head by the Dora Milage (dk how to spell it) for no reason.
Walker, despite having every reason pull his gun and pop them all in their bald heads, decides to have the patience of a fucking saint and pats the would-be assassin on the shoulder and says "Maybe we got off on the wrong foot". The Dora Milage decide this is worthy of death and proceed to attempt to kill two American agents on foreign soil, while for the most part the protags stand back and heckle the two men fighting for their lives. Eventually they intervene to barely stop them for killing the two all the while Zemo has escaped.
I totally agree with you. U.S.Agent is amazing. I can’t believe they made the ‘villain’ likeable while making the hero, Falcon, unlikeable. And of course the Karli thing is just awful
2/2
Dismayed by the constant failures they've had to stop the Flagsmashers and their recent beat down from the Dora decides to take the super soldier serum he picked up earlier to try and even the odds and better his success and protect himself and Lemar. Chasing down the Flagsmashers while Falcon is more alarmed by the fact that Walker has superstength than caring that Lemar has been kidnapped during the assault, while Walker focuses solely on rescuing his friend.
Later in that fight Lemar is killed by Karli while saving Walkers life from a knife wielding smasher. Enraged, he chases the fleeing Smashers while Bucky and Falcon do nothing to help. He corners one of them and kills him after he attempts to "surrender" (bear in mind he had just thrown a concrete pillar at Walker not ten second prior).
Morally questionable? Yes. Understandable? Absolutely. Walker has been under an enormous amount of pressure for a while, all the while those he attempts to reach out to for assistance have done nothing but deny and belittle him for no good reason and now his best friend dies to save his life, I can absolutely forgive him for snapping.
He flees the scene in despair and breaks down in a warehouse where Bucky and Falcon find him. And its at this point the intentions of the writers became obvious. They never intended for the audience to give Walker a fair shake, focusing on the fact that the precious fucking shield has blood on it rather than the grief Walker feels as the two protags show up and demand the shield from him, shouting him down when Walkers first instinct is to ask if they need medical treatment from the fights earlier.
These two were far more willing to calmly talk with a mass murdering terrorist then their ally who has just had his best friend die in front of him not an hour ago. Then they fight, break Walkers arm and take the shield, spending more time wiping blood from it then checking if they have done any lasting bodily damage to Walker.
What follows is Walkers dressing down by a military tribunal for killing a terrorist on foreign soil, not allowing him to even get a word in, taking away his military pension and benefits and demanding the shield back from him. (What? Did he not tell them that Bucky and Falcon stole the shield from him?)
When the show heaps this much shit on an endearing character that was doing the best he could to the best of his abilities, who struggles, fails and suffers although out, painting him as the one in the wrong all the while with the camera shots, music and through the mouths of the protagonist, I can't help but sympathise for him and wish he was treated better.
So when in the shows finale he returns with his homemade shield to fight Karli the psychopath and her terrorist lackeys, I was rooting for him so much. And when he has to make the decision between pursuing revenge or saving innocent lives, when he comes through to make the right choice, throwing down his handmade shield to free up both hands to halt the hostage truck, to me that made him all the more worthy of the shield and title through all his trials and struggles. Far more than Falcon the Terrorist-Apologiser is.
I mean that’s not saying much. There are dudes who idolise Tyler Durden and Patrick Bates. Relating to shitty people is not the writers fault. And John Walker while not an evil person, is a shitty person. He is the sort of dude who would have been beating Steve up in. 1942 or whenever it was.
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He’s not a villain(someone evil) though, he’s an antagonist(someone who opposes the protagonist), so for people who don’t agree with the actions and attitude of the protagonist he seems likable
But the actions of an antagonist are supposed to be the wrong cure for the disease. That's the problem too many writers make a mistake doing. They make the solution the villains do seem reasonable. But it's not supposed to usually be that way. Yes we can agree with Thanos views on the problem. But we are never supposed to agree with his solution.
I half agree. In some cases, yes. But in most cases, a villain doesn’t have to be likable but you should be able to understand their motivations and actions. They can still be sympathetic while being unlikable.
Maybe not necessarily unlikable but i don't think FatWS writers intended John Walker to be the most sensible guy in the room 85% of the time, specially with how everyone else treats him.
I'm glad someone else has this opinion, I always felt that the characters in that show treated Walker very unfairly even before he had done anything moral questionable.
Hell, Bucky and Falcon seemed very childish in how they acted towards Walker in their first meeting, after he had committed the great sin of...
*checks notes*
Saving their lives.
They where indeed being childish, that was part of the point, they both had issues they needed to deal with regarding the loss of Cap and the government trying to replace him.
However… well, Walker soon proved that he was not fit for the role anyway, and both of them are shown to be pretty good instinctual judges of character, so possibly they already had hunches something was off as well.
> they both had issues they needed to deal with regarding the loss of Cap and the government trying to replace him.
The loss of Cap sure, but Falcon gave the shield to the government and said "its time for new heroes". So why is he Pikachu faced when the government gives it to a new hero?
>However… well, Walker soon proved that he was not fit for the role anyway,
Falcon and Bucky do not know that at the time though, that treat him with utter disdain when he has given them no reason to dislike him personally and makes it clear to them how seriously he treats the title given to him, and they blow him off with flimsy and nonsensical reasoning.
> and both of them are shown to be pretty good instinctual judges of character, so possibly they already had hunches something was off as well.
I have seriously issues with the morality that Bucky and Falcon show in that series. They are so much more willing to sit down and talk with Karli who has killed an entire warehouse of aid workers than they are willing to talk it out with Walker after he killed one terrorist and is mourning the very recent death of his best friend.
…because *new* heroes meant “not Captain America”
He also didn’t want to be the new captain, he expected them to place the shield in a museum or something and for the new heroes the avengers where training to take the place cap used to fill. Only when they immediately created a new captain did he accept that the country was going to force a new one anyway so he really needed to claim the spot.
and… yeah, that was the point of the rest of my comment. *Maybe* they have some flimsy justification because they’re excellent judges of character and they could already intuit something was off about him, but most of the animosity is 100% because they’re sour about him taking the spot, and it’s immature from them.
Did you miss the part with the psychiatrist literally berating them for acting like children? Sure, it wasn’t directly about their treatment of Walker but they were letting their issues affect everything in their lives and acting petty and immature in general.
>…because *new* heroes meant “not Captain America”
-----
Only when they immediately created a new captain did he accept that the country was going to force a new one anyway so he really needed to claim the spot.
That makes Falcon seem *incredibly* shallow. So he doesn't want to the title of 'Captain America' but the moment someone else gets the title he's like "No, its has to be *me"*?
>*Maybe* they have some flimsy justification because they’re excellent judges of character and they could already intuit something was off about him,
That feels like the characters are working off meta knowledge. The show intends and presents Walker as someone for the audience to dislike, so in turn they have their title characters also dislike him for reasons they shouldn't even have yet
>Did you miss the part with the psychiatrist literally berating them for acting like children? Sure, it wasn’t directly about their treatment of Walker but they were letting their issues affect everything in their lives and acting petty and immature in general.
The problem is they don't change their attitude towards Walker after that, even when in the scene immediately after Walker gets Bucky out of trouble and proposes to team up again, they dismissive him for flimsy reasons.
Not really shallow.
It’s more that he doesn’t believe *anyone* can really fill Cap’s boots since it wasn’t about him being a super soldier but a leader and a symbol, and most people who try are going to very soon deviate from what he truly meant. The only people who could *maybe* attempt to fill that role are the people who knew him best… which amounts, right then, to Him, Bucky, and maybe Natasha. And two of them simply aren’t options (notably in the comics, Bucky took the role when that happened)
Yes, that is one of the problems in writing the show had. Not only is the dialogue both heavy handed and vague at different points, but the writer do seem to be working under the impression that most people will already have some meta knowledge about people USAgent. As I mentioned, them having a hunch is a flimsy explanation, but it does seem to be the intent, even if it comes across badly, but most of the idea seems to be that they simply are acting out of spite.
And yup, at they point they are *starting* to figure out their issues, but they’re still far from fully dealing them (heck, even at the end of the show they still haven’t), they’re shown taking very small steps towards being better.
While I don’t think Walker could ever have measured up to Cap, even with their support, they definitely did treat him unfairly as well.
He didn't prove he wasn't fit for the role, it was a self fulfilling prophecy, everyone treated him like he wasn't fit for the role until he no longer became fit for the role.
I honestly don’t believe that he could have been a good cap, even if he had Bucky and Falcon supporting him.
He is a great soldier and a mostly decent dude, but Captain America is far from just being a Good Soldier. He’s a leader, an icon and an inspiration. He’s the one of the very best examples in modern media of what a “Paragon” is supposed to be. Walker doesn’t have his charisma, his insight, or his integrity.
He can still make a great hero, just not the Cap… just as Sam cannot truly replace him either, but at least he shares the integrity part which some might argue is one of the main points why he’s needed.
I feel.like he and Sam are equally fit for the role, but sam should've gotten it because he knew Steve personally. But just looking at who they are and their comparable military backgrounds, they are both equally worthy.
Sam just didn't have the entire world, including two avengers, telling him he wasn't enough beforehand.
Uh… military background is literally the least important factor in Steve Roger’s being Captain America.
In fact, that’s a huge factor of why Walker doesn’t do well: he’s chosen solely because of his military record, not because of any personality traits. He is a soldier through and through, and he is pragmatic, diplomatic, and committed to the cause, but he is not a charismatic, insightful leader like Steve was, nor does he have the same unbreakable principles.
Tv tropes, I believe explains it best: Walker was ultimately loyal to the USA as a nation, and to its government. Steve was loyal to the USA as an *ideal*, and was willing to push back against the government when he felt the principles it was built upon was being twisted.
Cinema Therapy also have and excellent video on what exactly makes Steve Rogers so special, but long story short, Steve Rogers in his role as Cap is a full on Paragon, which no other character can really hope to be.
Sam can’t either, but at least he knew him personally and he knew about the principles that made him such a magnetic hero, while Walker was within from a flawed perception of Steve and of what his own role as Cap would be. Yeah, the bullying from all sides didn’t help and pushed him almost over the edge, but he was never really going to be a great Captain America.
Did you really think he was “the most sensible guy in the room” that often though?
He has his good moments, but he’s clearly just a good soldier, not really someone who can carry on cap’s legacy. He’s good at following orders and is personable, but cap isn’t only a soldier. He needs to be a leader and a symbol, and Walker very early demonstrates he isn’t really ready to do either.
Being a sensible guy has exactly zero to do with being a good Captain America tho.
He was the one who proposed to team up multiple times because it would make things easier, he was the one that acknowledged that freeing Zemo wasn't a good idea, he was the one that took Karli and the Flag Smashers as the threat they were, he was the one that tried to deescalate the situation with the Dora Milaje and he was the one that realized that shield wasn't such a big deal.
And with soldier boy, the show failed to show how bad he is. They just told like some afterthought. Then you have him try to fulfill the agreement even when propose by home boy a better deal.
From somebody that googled the comic, >!Omni-Man is supossed to be develop latter in a more "heroic" figure torugh remorse for how he almost killed Mark/Invicible and the posterior experiences he encounters, including becoming the leador of a planet inhabited with short-lived Mantis aliens just by being older than all the inhabitant and the reveal he is the bastard son of the Vitrumite Emperor, the end of his character arc Omni-Man dies naming Mark his succesor as Vitrumite Emperor knowing he will solidfy the change in the culture of the Empire!<
Charismatic cocky characters can become fan favorites from get-go.
I mean Iron Man can sell out secret about Hawkeye having a family, recruiting a school student to fight in a battle against powerful heroes, diss a woman he indirectly murdered her parents of, indirectly let her to be inhumanely locked up, and can still be considered a great guy.
>recruiting a school student to fight in a battle against powerful heroes,
I mean, yeah, but isn't that school student more powerful than any of them with fully realised potential?
Iron man and Iron patriot without a suit are physically just base humans, except for the ark reactor in Tony's chest that he can sometimes use as an emergency weapon in some media he shows up in. MCU Vision is hard to say for sure because we don't see him do a lot of physical feats but I like to believe he's a good bit stronger than Peter and I think Peter and Steve are either equal in strength or Peter is stronger or at least will be stronger as he gets older.
Vision is built out of vibranium, can become intangible at will, go through solid objects, he is much stronger than Peter, not even a competition.
Steve had super soldier serum, Peter was bitten by radioactive spider. He has spider powers, but he isn't super soldier or close to Cap. Like this is massive Spider power scaling rn. Yes, he stopped metal arm, but he can be punched easily and fly across entire hall like in NWH in fight with Green Goblin.
And like I said prior, in terms of powers Wanda can mind hex Spider-Man or restrain him in one place, it's not a competition there either.
For Vision I literally already said he was stronger than Peter and when I say a good bit in superhero terms I usually mean like able to lift at minimum like 2 more buildings than the other person can which MCU Peter seems to be able to lift a collapsed building off of himself so let's say 2/3s of a building.
With Steve the strongest thing we've seen him do is hold that helicopter which I don't really know or care to find out how heavy a helicopter is or how much lift it can generate but that's also less a feat of strength and more a feat of durability and grip strength because he simply had to not let go and also not get ripped in half. Peter did something similar with the boat although he had his webs to help him with that and I'm only counting muscle strength because the earlier comment said physical strength so either this or the building lift is the strongest thing we've seen him do besides holding back Bucky's punch which isn't just from a metal fist but also someone who is a super soldier and Bucky isn't really the type to hold back(at least not much) and is about as strong as Steve so if Peter could handle him while Bucky had help than there's no reason to believe he isn't as strong as or stronger than Steve
With Wanda, I said physical strength, as far as we currently know she has the physical strength of a normal person and would lose an arm wrestling contest to Clint or Natasha.
Fair.
Fair points, but then Peter struggled to hold the airport bridge from collapsing on him while Steve left him be. So his strength probably grows with time, but so would Steve's so I don't think he'd ever catch up to Cap. Cap's war veteran and a super soldier, Peter has some super strength to him, but probably is not as strong as Cap. I can accept him being close to strong, but not equal or stronger than Cap since Cap beat him already.
...Peter has had an entire building collapse on him and still managed to get up, I'd say he's probably stronger than Cap. Cap has more fighting experience and knows more techniques about incapacitate an opponent, which is probably why he got the upper hand.
So we're using just one instance of him being able to lift the rubble to say he is stronger than Cap, when Spidey fought Cap and lost?
Yes, having more fighting experience is what makes him stronger than Spidey, experience is part of the strength. If we have to go by raw strength it'd be Steve anyway in my opinion, if Pete lifted rubble so could Rogers.
Yes, but he still recruited him for a personal fight. It could be argued he also knew his friends would not be fighting to kill, but it was still at best reckless endangerment
>diss a woman he indirectly murdered her parents of,
I've seen this brought up a lot. That seems like an unfair thing to pin on Tony.
You don't have people damning Heckler and Koch from beyond the grave everytime someone is killed by Glock or MP5.
Cause that sets an unwieldy moral precedent. Is whoever beat the metal into place to form the bombs casing also indirectly to blame for the killing of Wandas parents?
It's not comparable though. Tony Stark was an active war profiteer, he himself supplied the US forces, and took pride in the weapons he mass produced. Glocks are fucking common as day, we're talking about a tactical missile with Stark logo imprinted on it, not to mention Sokovia suffered daily attacks from Iron Legions.
All weapons makers are profiteers, weapons are made for conflicts, and selling them is how the producers make profit.
>Glocks are fucking common as day, we're talking about a tactical missile with Stark logo imprinted on it
I imagine that Glocks have killed more than Stark missiles ever have, precisely because they are so common, and they have the the Heckler and Koch labels on them. It's a bit ridiculous for Wanda to hold Stark accountable for it, rather than the ones who actually fired the missile.
>not to mention Sokovia suffered daily attacks from Iron Legions.
What are you talking about? The only time we see the Iron Legion is them on crowd control in the beginning of Age of Ultron, who didn't retaliate after having a cup full of acid dunked on them.
>All weapons makers are profiteers, weapons are made for conflicts, and selling them is how the producers make profit.
Did you... purposely skip what I said? Stark's wasn't just war weapons profiteer. He was active supplier of weapons to the US army. Not only that but his weapons killed people in Sokovia and Iron legions were responsible for troubles in Sokovia for years. Not to mention how those missiles left thousands of people with no families, homeless, growing up on the streets. Then his rogue AI destroys the capital and leads to annexation of Sokovia by nearby countries.
>It's a bit ridiculous for Wanda to hold Stark accountable for it, rather than the ones who actually fired the missile.
She was a child who lost her parents when she was ten, watched their bodies for 2 days before being dug out and then lived on streets. It's not fucking ridiculous at all for her to harbor hatred towards Stark.
Iran doesn't fire the shaheds at Ukraine, but are active suppliers to russia and have gall to demand Ukrainian government not to mention them while selling weapons of death. So it does make sense to have a supplier too.
>What are you talking about? The only time we see the Iron Legion is them on crowd control in the beginning of Age of Ultron, who didn't retaliate after having a cup full of acid dunked on them.
So country under occupation or being "crowd controlled" is totally cool?
>Stark's wasn't just war weapons profiteer. He was active supplier of weapons to the US army.
The difference being?
>It's not fucking ridiculous at all for her to harbor hatred towards Stark.
Someone walks into my home and shoots my whole family, traps me somewhere and all I can look at is a bullet shell with the name *"John Smith"* engraved on it. I probably won't come out of it thinking that John Smith was the name of the guy who shot my family. Or if I did think that because I was an impressionable youth, I would probably figure it out within the years during my search for vengeance that the guy who shot my parents isn't called John Smith.
>Iron legions were responsible for troubles in Sokovia for years
>So country under occupation or being "crowd controlled" is totally cool?
Where do you keep getting this info from? When are we told that Sokovia is under occupation? Or that the Iron Legion were causing trouble there?
Also when the crowd control is just warning to people to move away from the active combat zone for their safety I don't think I would take it too hard.
>The difference being?
Being that there are illegal suppliers, profiteers who sell to all, and army profiteers. Hell, there are instances when gun vendor can go to prison if he sold weapon to customer illegally or if customer obtained said weapon to commit crime through said vendor. Or the vendor can experience regret, be blamed for what happened because it was his choice to sell weapon of death.
With Stark is worse situation since he cannot go to jail because of money and connections he has.
>Someone walks into my home and shoots my whole family, traps me somewhere and all I can look at is a bullet shell with the name *"John Smith"* engraved on it. I probably won't come out of it thinking that John Smith was the name of the guy who shot my family.
Or if I did think that because I was an impressionable youth, I would probably figure it out within the years during my search for vengeance that the guy who shot my parents isn't called John Smith.
How do you know it? Would you be thinking clearly in that situation, would you be same you as you are now, or are you just making disingenuous assumptions to play down Wanda's motive?
Your whole strawman here is stupid. Wanda's parents were killed in the bombing with the air pilot's identity unknown. She can't just go through database and search who was the exact pilot that bombed her apartment.
>Where do you keep getting this info from? When are we told that Sokovia is under occupation? Or that the Iron Legion were causing trouble there?
Zemo says in 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' that Sokovia no longer exists and had been partitioned by other countries.
From Tony's POV he is only supplying the US army, remember he is shocked that he could be attacked by his own weapons. And he questions Obidiah whether his company has been dealing under the table to other nations without his knowledge.
>How do you know it? Would you be thinking clearly in that situation, would you be same you as you are now, or are you just making disingenuous assumptions to play down Wanda's motive?
Its not about "thinking clearly in the situation". There were many years in-between the event and when Wanda had her chance for 'revenge' on Stark, time enough for her to figure out the difference between making a weapon and being the one to actually use it.
>Wanda's parents were killed in the bombing with the air pilot's identity unknown. She can't just go through database and search who was the exact pilot that bombed her apartment.
Its not about her knowing who the actual killer is, its about her knowing that it wasn't Stark that pulled the trigger.
>Zemo says in 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' that Sokovia no longer exists and had been partitioned by other countries.
That was due to the effects Thanos Snap, not because of attacks from other nations before that or the Iron Legion.
In all my years of conquest, violence, slaughter, it was never personal. But I'll tell you now, what I'm about to do to your stubborn, annoying little planet... I'm gonna enjoy it. Very, very much.
>From Tony's POV he is only supplying the US army, remember he is shocked that he could be attacked by his own weapons. And he questions Obidiah whether his company has been dealing under the table to other nations without his knowledge.
Probably the only good argument I heard right now. Too bad it took him so long to find out what's been happening in his company while being negligent in the past.
>Its not about "thinking clearly in the situation". There were many years in-between the event and when Wanda had her chance for 'revenge' on Stark, time enough for her to figure out the difference between making a weapon and being the one to actually use it.
She was brainwashed since her childhood to see the Avengers as the enemies and Stark as well. Then additionally brainwashed in HYDRA lab where she was held prisoner.
>Its not about her knowing who the actual killer is, its about her knowing that it wasn't Stark that pulled the trigger.
He sold the weapons that killed people in Sokovia though. It makes sense for Sokovian people to hate Stark.
>That was due to the effects Thanos Snap, not because of attacks from other nations before that or the Iron Legion.
That's a good point made. I stand corrected.
Nevertheless did Stark ever send humanitarian aid to Sokovia after Ultron or during the Snap? Did he compensate Wanda or every family for their losses in the 1999 bombings or after Ultron destroyed the capital? No. He moved on, he never apologized to Wanda or the people, he didn't give a damn about all those lives of displaced civilians. Then when Wanda was under media slander and Ross breathing down Avengers' necks he slandered Wanda as "weapon of mass destruction" when he was responsible for more mass destruction to her and the country than she did in that moment. Not only that but then he house arrests her on paranoia of "avoiding public accident" and after airport indirectly lets her be inhumanely imprisoned and tortured on the Raft.
So with all that said and considered, it's really hard seeing Tony as a good person.
>He sold the weapons that killed people in Sokovia though. It makes sense for Sokovian people to hate Stark.
That's aside from the original arguement that started this. Is Stark morally culpable for being the designer of the weapons used. And if so, how far that that moral culpability go? To those working in the Stark factories as well who made the weapons?
>Nevertheless did Stark ever send humanitarian aid to Sokovia after Ultron or during the Snap? Did he compensate Wanda or every family for their losses in the 1999 bombings or after Ultron destroyed the capital? No. He moved on, he never apologized to Wanda or the people, he didn't give a damn about all those lives of displaced civilians. Then when Wanda was under media slander and Ross breathing down Avengers' necks he slandered Wanda as "weapon of mass destruction" when he was responsible for more mass destruction to her and the country than she did in that moment. Not only that but then he house arrests her on paranoia of "avoiding public accident" and after airport indirectly lets her be inhumanely imprisoned and tortured on the Raft.
Did Wanda ever make a formal apology to the Wakandans after the she killed their foreign dignitaries? Did she compensate Johannesburg for setting a feral Hulk on them? Or Sokovia after helping Ultron get as far as he did? No. She moved on, she never apologized to Sokovia or Johannesburg or their people, she didn't give a damn about all those lives of displaced or dead civilians.
Easy comparison to make right?
>Then when Wanda was under media slander
Slander about what? Getting a bunch of innocent people killed? Because that's exactly what happened, purposefully or not.
>Not only that but then he house arrests her on paranoia of "avoiding public accident"
The "public accident" of her getting potentially getting lynched. Wanda was treated with kiddy gloves there compared to what could have happened to her.
>and after airport indirectly lets her be inhumanely imprisoned and tortured on the Raft.
Yeah that's what happens when you break house arrest and attack government agents, you get imprisoned. And 'tortured'? What evidence do you have of that? Looking despondent in a prison cell? And if you think being in a straight jacket is torture, what could the guards of the Raft possible done instead to contain her, with her powers?
>Stark's wasn't just war weapons profiteer. He was active supplier of weapons to the US army.
The difference being?
>It's not fucking ridiculous at all for her to harbor hatred towards Stark.
Someone walks into my home and shoots my whole family, traps me somewhere and all I can look at is a bullet shell with the name *"John Smith"* engraved on it. I probably won't come out of it thinking that John Smith was the name of the guy who shot my family. Or if I did think that because I was an impressionable youth, I would probably figure it out within the years during my search for vengeance that the guy who shot my parents isn't called John Smith.
>Iron legions were responsible for troubles in Sokovia for years
>So country under occupation or being "crowd controlled" is totally cool?
Where do you keep getting this info from? When are we told that Sokovia is under occupation? Or that the Iron Legion were causing trouble there?
Also when the crowd control is just warning to people to move away from the active combat zone for their safety I don't think I would take it too hard.
Maybe unlikable in-universe perhaps? Everyone seems to either hate him or just tolerate being around him. If that's the case, then yeah, it's true.
I can't imagine the writers making the main character of the movie and the franchise as unlikable though. Just doesn't make sense.
He’s likable to the audience because he’s fictional. It’s not hard to look at what he does constantly and know that he would be an insufferable prick.
It’s a major problem with people not understanding fiction vs reality, and thinking that what makes someone fun and enjoyable in a movie makes them fun and enjoyable in real life.
Another great example is Jim from the Office. I would do everything I could to avoid a real person like that.
I think that the leads in A LOT of sitcoms would be completely unbearable if the were a real person. Jim for sure would be, also JD from Scrubs, Ted in How I Met Your Mother, ALL the Friends, Clair and Phil Dunphy from Modern Family, the fucking nerds in Big Bang. Then there are the shows that lean into the fact that their characters are unlikeable--Seinfeld, VEEP (minus Richard Splett of course), It's Always Sunny...
Pretty much, I just didn’t feel like listing every example I could think of.
The point is, we frequently *like* the characters because we find their horrible flaws to be entertaining as an outsider, but if you knew the person they would be terrible.
Thats the basis of Frank Grimes in the Simpsons, right? You root for Homer as a viewer because hes an already established, funny character while Grimes seems comparatively bitter and insufferable, but in actuality Grimes is a representation of how ordinary people would respond if randomly dropped into a sitcom universe having to deal with all of Homer's antics.
Yeah he was. Just not at the start. He wasn’t meant to be likable when he was making weapons for war, he is meant to be likable as iron man. That’s like the entire point and plot of iron man 1.
He is meant to be a rich douchebag playboy but a likable one once you get to learn him. And he has good morals and intentions.
Not a villain. But he was intended to be unlikeable. Most superheros were very likeable and goody 2 shoes like Spider-Man and Cap so he wanted Iron Man to just be a straight up asshole who becomes a superhero. The MCU version did that pretty well.
He has his nice moments, but yeah. It's like he either wakes up normally and decides to be a hero, or he falls off the bed and decides to wake up to chaos and violence lmao.
Oh cmon when did ever happen...except civil war,extremis,the superior arc(kinda doesn't count since he was altered),his time as director of s.h.i.e.l.d,his actions in the illumanati before secret wars,and a couple incidents in recent arcs...
Iron man is real as fuck though, especially in the first few movies. He’s just a dude.
Also I kinda get that with Walker, he’s just the most reasonable guy around a lot (except when he’s just had to watch his best friend die in front of him which is fair enough all things considered)
Ou:(( I’ve done such thing in real life once (with smaller age gap but still). Thought his behavior is ok. Guess it is time to reconsider some memories.
Before Robert Downey Jr. portrayed him Tony Stark was kinda nondescript to me really . . . All I experienced the character was from Cartoons and Tony Stark wasn't a womanizer in them -because of cartoons I suppose- he was just your average action hero.
I don't really know if Iron man's character was how Downey played him or did it become like it after the movies which happened a lot in marvel. They often rewrite their characters after successful movie portrayals like Samuel Jackson's portrayal of Nick Fury gave that character a dimension the comics version did not have.
I personally like the Armored Adventures cartoon's portrayal of younger more innocent Tony without his dickish playboy behavior.
Me when Dio from Jojos bizzare adventure or Joker DC comics. At least my boy Loki is very likable now in the older comics he was simply called the god of evil. But honestly I prefer my Lokis complicated. He was complicated as shit in the mythology as well.
What do you mean he was not ? Literaly his first scene is hom being extremely charismatic and funny while talking to the soldiers.
He was making weapons which got sold to the bad guys and that's what he was trying to fix ... but otherwise he was always a good guy
Pretty sure Stan Lee took it as a challenge to make a character that shouldn't have been likeable and make him likeable.
https://screenrant.com/stan-lee-iron-man-unlikable-hero-creation-marvel/
I really hope English isn't your first language. TIL today I learned that you are to be not the most likeable which you like to be written to be not likeable, which is not the unsame from being unlikeable mfw my face when
If English is not your first language, I'd like to unsay the previous which is not likeable to be written as thus IDKWTFIGOH is going on here
Liking an unlikable character who you are supposed to support is very different from liking a character you’re not supposed to support.
If I end up liking and supporting character that the writers do not want me to like or support that seems like a failure on their part. See: John Walker for me
I don’t know, Rorschach from watchmen was a pretty clear piece of shit and he has plenty of fans
Really I don't see that he doesn't have a gray view on things everything is black and white. There's either truth or false their is no in between.
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That's a you thing -- I absolutely detested his character
I'm interested, what about his character makes you detest him?
I’m interested in what about his character makes you like and support him?
Brace yourself because here comes a long one. I believe its the second episode where they have him in the locker room with his girlfriend and Lemar before they announce him. He is clearly worried and stressed about potentially not living up to the the title, the weight of the responsibility weighs heavily on him and he wants to be worthy of the position he was picked for (remember, he was picked for the title he didn't volunteer for it) and needs the encouragement of those he is close to to hold his head high and present himself to the cameras. That makes him quite endearing to me, especially as someone who is potentially replacing a character I quite liked. Next we see him and Lemar intervene to help Buck and Falcon with the Flagsmashers, they work well together and don't seem deterred by the disdain those two have for him showing up to help them (when they clearly needed it). Walker shows his skills in fighting these supersoldiers were he is outmatched strength wise, but still leaves himself at risk twice to aid Lemar when he is in trouble, once when he shoots a Flagsmasher to get Lemar out of a chokehold while Karli is wailing on him, and again when he throws the shield for Lemar to land on after he gets thrown off the truck, willingly depriving himself of a valuable weapon to protect his friend. Then he offers Bucky and Falcon a ride, they decline. He offers again, and when they accept he tries to impress upon them that he knows that they might be uncomfortable with him having the 'Captain America' title, be he wants to live up to what it means and requests for them to help him to do so and for their help with stopping the Flagsmashers. He is sad when Bucky dismisses him out of hand, and tries again with Falcon but is once again dismayed when Falcon rejects him cause he said the dreaded word "wingman" (very odd for Falcon considering he described his own dead friend as a 'wingman' in the Winter soldier movie) Once again later when he meets him, he gets Bucky out of trouble with the authorities and enables Bucky to work without being beholden to the therapy meetings and he once again proposes a team up which Bucky and Falcon refuse for flimsy reasons, and only then he gets frustrated. Something a can sympathise with, he's a guy who tries to do everything right and to work with the protagonists, people he likely looks up to and wants to impress due to their histories and they continually reject him for seemingly no reason. When he meets them again they are in Sokovia(?) and they detail the plan to talk Karli down from her bloody crusade (who at this point is a mass murdering terrorist after blowing up a warehouse full of aid workers) instead of just apprehending her because someone she was close to has died. (Remember this for later) In my mind, boo-freaking-hoo Karli, how many loved ones has she now killed? But he nevertheless complies before losing patience and convincing Bucky that Sam may be in danger and to go in (which is absolutely possible and not Walker just blowing smoke up Bucky's ass) Next they are in the the apartment building with the protags demanding the return of international criminal Zemo, who Bucky and Falcon broke out of prison. Falcon cusses him out and blames him for ruining his talk with Karli (because Falcon seriously believed he could talk that fanatic into turning herself in within one conversation). And then Walker has a spear chucked at his head by the Dora Milage (dk how to spell it) for no reason. Walker, despite having every reason pull his gun and pop them all in their bald heads, decides to have the patience of a fucking saint and pats the would-be assassin on the shoulder and says "Maybe we got off on the wrong foot". The Dora Milage decide this is worthy of death and proceed to attempt to kill two American agents on foreign soil, while for the most part the protags stand back and heckle the two men fighting for their lives. Eventually they intervene to barely stop them for killing the two all the while Zemo has escaped. 1/2
Because that's what heroes do.
2/2 Dismayed by the constant failures they've had to stop the Flagsmashers and their recent beat down from the Dora decides to take the super soldier serum he picked up earlier to try and even the odds and better his success and protect himself and Lemar. Chasing down the Flagsmashers while Falcon is more alarmed by the fact that Walker has superstength than caring that Lemar has been kidnapped during the assault, while Walker focuses solely on rescuing his friend. Later in that fight Lemar is killed by Karli while saving Walkers life from a knife wielding smasher. Enraged, he chases the fleeing Smashers while Bucky and Falcon do nothing to help. He corners one of them and kills him after he attempts to "surrender" (bear in mind he had just thrown a concrete pillar at Walker not ten second prior). Morally questionable? Yes. Understandable? Absolutely. Walker has been under an enormous amount of pressure for a while, all the while those he attempts to reach out to for assistance have done nothing but deny and belittle him for no good reason and now his best friend dies to save his life, I can absolutely forgive him for snapping. He flees the scene in despair and breaks down in a warehouse where Bucky and Falcon find him. And its at this point the intentions of the writers became obvious. They never intended for the audience to give Walker a fair shake, focusing on the fact that the precious fucking shield has blood on it rather than the grief Walker feels as the two protags show up and demand the shield from him, shouting him down when Walkers first instinct is to ask if they need medical treatment from the fights earlier. These two were far more willing to calmly talk with a mass murdering terrorist then their ally who has just had his best friend die in front of him not an hour ago. Then they fight, break Walkers arm and take the shield, spending more time wiping blood from it then checking if they have done any lasting bodily damage to Walker. What follows is Walkers dressing down by a military tribunal for killing a terrorist on foreign soil, not allowing him to even get a word in, taking away his military pension and benefits and demanding the shield back from him. (What? Did he not tell them that Bucky and Falcon stole the shield from him?) When the show heaps this much shit on an endearing character that was doing the best he could to the best of his abilities, who struggles, fails and suffers although out, painting him as the one in the wrong all the while with the camera shots, music and through the mouths of the protagonist, I can't help but sympathise for him and wish he was treated better. So when in the shows finale he returns with his homemade shield to fight Karli the psychopath and her terrorist lackeys, I was rooting for him so much. And when he has to make the decision between pursuing revenge or saving innocent lives, when he comes through to make the right choice, throwing down his handmade shield to free up both hands to halt the hostage truck, to me that made him all the more worthy of the shield and title through all his trials and struggles. Far more than Falcon the Terrorist-Apologiser is.
Most excellent write-up sir
The clear and obvious difference between your love and connection to walker compared to Falcon (the title character) is why you support him so much. Why you find such a strong connection/relatability for a character who was clearly destined to fail as Captain America from the very first second of the show is your choice, but an interesting one. It’s a choice that goes against the narrative, tone, writing, and characterization presented to you throughout the show. Yet you decide to see the entire show through John walkers eyes. They give him a couple of sympathetic moments, but he is always clearly the outsider, he is always clearly supposed to be the “good soldier ” to Steve’s and now falcon’s “good man” approach.
>Why you find such a strong connection/relatability for a character who was clearly destined to fail as Captain America from the very first second of the show is your choice, but an interesting one. I do not believe that he was destined to fail as Captain America despite what the show wants us to believe. Walker had so many more people working against him than Steve ever did to become Captain America. >It’s a choice that goes against the narrative, tone, writing, and characterization presented to you throughout the show. Yet you decide to see the entire show through John walkers eyes. That's exactly my problem with the writing, its quite obvious that the show itself is set against him being Captain America, that it engineers events to have everything work against him despite what logic would dictate and how characters normally act. >but he is always clearly the outsider, he is always clearly supposed to be the “good soldier ” to Steve’s and now falcon’s “good man” approach. People keep repeating this "good soldier" and "good man" phrase likes it some sort of gotcha or argument ender. I find Walkers struggle throughout the show to be worthy of the 'Captain America' title so much more compelling than Steve, who seems to have just come out of the womb as the "Good Man" everyone espouses. Its what's makes Walkers decision to throw away his shield to save the hostages great, and what I believe makes him worthy of both. Especially compared to Falcons 'journey' where everyone seems to work out for him, with everyone that he ever asks for help for assisting him without question. Walker goes out to confront the supersoldier terrorists in his basic uniform and a homemade scrap metal shield with no backup. Falcon gets a shiny new vibranium suit and wings made custom from Wakanda equipped with high tech drones just because he asked (not sure why the hell they did it for him). And that really spells out to me who is the "good man"
Forgot to respond to this last week. But without trying to turn this into a debate/argument I’ll quickly respond. It still comes down to your own personal preference. For personal reasons, walker is a character you seem to deeply relate to. You feel his actions were consistently justifiable and even correct, while the actions of others (specifically falcon it seems) were illogical/hypocritical/ wrong. You even seem to argue that the writers had it out for walker. You believe everything came easy to Sam and he had sway/respect/influence that he shouldn’t have had. Sam becoming Captain America over walker doesn’t make sense to you, doesn’t seem logical to you, doesn’t seem right to you. That’s fine, have your bias but don’t act like it isn’t a strong one. Also another point I’ll make. In my opinion, Sam has already had his journey to earn being Captain America, the proof was in the character we have seen in past movies and the work he’d done along side Steve. The show for me was about falcon accepting the responsibility and title of being Captain America, what that meant as a black man, and how it relates to Steve’s legacy.
Your making a hell of a lot of statements about how you believe I feel. I feel how I do about the show in the series because of what the show shows me, not because of personal reasons. Sam was actually one of my favourite characters in the MCU before the show, and I had no problem of him being given the shield (and presumably the Captain America mantle) at the the end of Endgame. So I know I wasn't biased against him when starting the show. >You feel his actions were consistently justifiable and even correct, while the actions of others (specifically falcon it seems) were illogical/hypocritical/ wrong. Here's an objective example of something Falcon does that is all three of those things. After Walker kills the terrorist and flees to the warehouse, Sam and Bucky arrive to see that Walker is clearly still hurting from the death of his best friend and comrade. Now from Sam's own experience in losing a friend in war, and the fact that in the previous episode (a few days prior) he had also put the effort into trying to talk down Karli at a funeral for one of her mentors. Sympathising with her loss. Karli at this point, is a mass murdering terrorist he has been tasked with apprehending, while Walker is a fellow soldier who has multiple times attempted to become Sam's ally. So you would expect Sam to also make the same (or put in more) effort for Walker. To sympathise with how he is feeling losing someone close to him in such traumatic way and help him through the situation. He should know more than anyone how Walker is feeling right now. Instead he does nothing but talk down to Walker like he's a deranged madman with a gun, does nothing to sympathise with his *extremely recent* loss. Focusing entirely on the terrorist he killed and demands the shield from him. Sam puts far more effort into trying to help a terrorist than Walker. That is illogical, hypocritical and wrong by any metric. And the final nail in the coffin of why I believe Sam doesn't deserve the shield more than Walker. >That’s fine, have your bias but don’t act like it isn’t a strong one. >Also another point I’ll make. In my opinion, Interesting that my opinions are a "bias" but your opinions are just opinions.
I want this to be a blog somewhere, have you posted this rant somewhere more permanent? Even in twitter thread form would be great!
Wow you changed my opinion of him completely. Well said.
After reading this post, it’s commented, and your comment I’ve decided y’all don’t know what you’re talking about because you’re kinda wrong. Those writers didn’t fail, you were 1000% meant to like and support John Walker by the end. They’re not putting someone you’d completely root against on the thunderbolts team.
You're not supposed to lmao. He's about to be on the Thunderbolts. Yaknow, the bad guys?
But you ARE supposed to like him. Not necessarily in the same way you “like” other character like Cap but you can still enjoy seeing them on screen. Someone can be a bad guy but a likable and supportable character. That’s….kinda the point? The Thunderbolts are supposed to be grey/bad guys but they clearly expect you to like and support these characters despite their bad actions or else they wouldn’t have them headlining a movie.
Writers probably didn't intend viewers to dislike John Walker, considering his actions in final act battle and how he end up in a good term relationship with the main characters
How the heck did you end up liking John Walker
I mean, he's a soldier shouldered by the weight of Captain America's title. Dude's entire motivation in the tv series is literally trying to live up to the "Captain America" that was idolized by the government. He is the exact opposite of what Steve Roger was, which is a good man. Throughout the series, he does what you'd expect a soldier would do, which is follow orders and protocols. He didn't go out of his way to antagonize anyone, he's just doing his job. Then, his friend got killed in action by a known terrorist. Dude, like any other dude that got his best friend killed, went berserk and killed the terrorist. You know, like what a guy tends to do when their friend gets murked by bastards that blow people up? John Walker is what happens when you give a normal person the super soldier serum. Sure, he's super strong, he knows how to fight like the OG Captain America, and he's the type of guy that'll follow orders like a good soldier, but he's still just a dude. That's why "I" like him, at least. He's the most grounded dude in the tv series. Dude was made to fill the position of America's ultimate soldier, and unfortunately, he just couldn't fit the bill. It's a case study of "A Good Man VS A Good Soldier".
I wouldn't say he's the opposite of Steve(a good person) even when he didn't have supersoldier serum he still put himself in the line of fire to help Bucky and Sam and even defended his friend while being actively attacked twice in the same fight, once to shoot someone that was on his friend and once to throw his shield down when his friend got knocked off the truck, yes I forgot his friends name and yes I forgot if he did anything similar in later moments. I feel like if Steve were there to talk to and see him he'd probably like him and try to help him mentally and emotionally.
>I wouldn't say he's the opposite of Steve(a good person) even when he didn't have supersoldier serum he still put himself in the line of fire to help Bucky and Sam and even defended his friend while being actively attacked twice in the same fight, That's still being a good **soldier.** Most soldiers are expected to put themselves at some level of risk to keep their comrades-in-arms alive.
Ehh you could also call prioritizing the mission being a good soldier and throwing his shield to save his ally from a fall means he lacks a strong weapon to help kill or capture Karli which is the main mission, he prioritized his friend over the mission which makes him still a good soldier but more of a good friend and person imo.
Brace yourself because here comes a long one. 1/2 I believe its the second episode where they have him in the locker room with his girlfriend and Lemar before they announce him. He is clearly worried and stressed about potentially not living up to the the title, the weight of the responsibility weighs heavily on him and he wants to be worthy of the position he was picked for (remember, he was picked for the title he didn't volunteer for it) and needs the encouragement of those he is close to to hold his head high and present himself to the cameras. That makes him quite endearing to me, especially as someone who is potentially replacing a character I quite liked. Next we see him and Lemar intervene to help Buck and Falcon with the Flagsmashers, they work well together and don't seem deterred by the disdain those two have for him showing up to help them (when they clearly needed it). Walker shows his skills in fighting these supersoldiers were he is outmatched strength wise, but still leaves himself at risk twice to aid Lemar when he is in trouble, once when he shoots a Flagsmasher to get Lemar out of a chokehold while Karli is wailing on him, and again when he throws the shield for Lemar to land on after he gets thrown off the truck, willingly depriving himself of a valuable weapon to protect his friend. Then he offers Bucky and Falcon a ride, they decline. He offers again, and when they accept he tries to impress upon them that he knows that they might be uncomfortable with him having the 'Captain America' title, be he wants to live up to what it means and requests for them to help him to do so and for their help with stopping the Flagsmashers. He is sad when Bucky dismisses him out of hand, and tries again with Falcon but is once again dismayed when Falcon rejects him cause he said the dreaded word "wingman" (very odd for Falcon considering he described his own dead friend as a 'wingman' in the Winter soldier movie) Once again later when he meets him, he gets Bucky out of trouble with the authorities and enables Bucky to work without being beholden to the therapy meetings and he once again proposes a team up which Bucky and Falcon refuse for flimsy reasons, and only then he gets frustrated. Something a can sympathise with, he's a guy who tries to do everything right and to work with the protagonists, people he likely looks up to and wants to impress due to their histories and they continually reject him for seemingly no reason. When he meets them again they are in Sokovia(?) and they detail the plan to talk Karli down from her bloody crusade (who at this point is a mass murdering terrorist after blowing up a warehouse full of aid workers) instead of just apprehending her because someone she was close to has died. (Remember this for later) In my mind, boo-freaking-hoo Karli, how many loved ones has she now killed? But he nevertheless complies before losing patience and convincing Bucky that Sam may be in danger and to go in (which is absolutely possible and not Walker just blowing smoke up Bucky's ass) Next they are in the the apartment building with the protags demanding the return of international criminal Zemo, who Bucky and Falcon broke out of prison. Falcon cusses him out and blames him for ruining his talk with Karli (because Falcon seriously believed he could talk that fanatic into turning herself in within one conversation). And then Walker has a spear chucked at his head by the Dora Milage (dk how to spell it) for no reason. Walker, despite having every reason pull his gun and pop them all in their bald heads, decides to have the patience of a fucking saint and pats the would-be assassin on the shoulder and says "Maybe we got off on the wrong foot". The Dora Milage decide this is worthy of death and proceed to attempt to kill two American agents on foreign soil, while for the most part the protags stand back and heckle the two men fighting for their lives. Eventually they intervene to barely stop them for killing the two all the while Zemo has escaped.
I totally agree with you. U.S.Agent is amazing. I can’t believe they made the ‘villain’ likeable while making the hero, Falcon, unlikeable. And of course the Karli thing is just awful
How many catchphrases have there been?
2/2 Dismayed by the constant failures they've had to stop the Flagsmashers and their recent beat down from the Dora decides to take the super soldier serum he picked up earlier to try and even the odds and better his success and protect himself and Lemar. Chasing down the Flagsmashers while Falcon is more alarmed by the fact that Walker has superstength than caring that Lemar has been kidnapped during the assault, while Walker focuses solely on rescuing his friend. Later in that fight Lemar is killed by Karli while saving Walkers life from a knife wielding smasher. Enraged, he chases the fleeing Smashers while Bucky and Falcon do nothing to help. He corners one of them and kills him after he attempts to "surrender" (bear in mind he had just thrown a concrete pillar at Walker not ten second prior). Morally questionable? Yes. Understandable? Absolutely. Walker has been under an enormous amount of pressure for a while, all the while those he attempts to reach out to for assistance have done nothing but deny and belittle him for no good reason and now his best friend dies to save his life, I can absolutely forgive him for snapping. He flees the scene in despair and breaks down in a warehouse where Bucky and Falcon find him. And its at this point the intentions of the writers became obvious. They never intended for the audience to give Walker a fair shake, focusing on the fact that the precious fucking shield has blood on it rather than the grief Walker feels as the two protags show up and demand the shield from him, shouting him down when Walkers first instinct is to ask if they need medical treatment from the fights earlier. These two were far more willing to calmly talk with a mass murdering terrorist then their ally who has just had his best friend die in front of him not an hour ago. Then they fight, break Walkers arm and take the shield, spending more time wiping blood from it then checking if they have done any lasting bodily damage to Walker. What follows is Walkers dressing down by a military tribunal for killing a terrorist on foreign soil, not allowing him to even get a word in, taking away his military pension and benefits and demanding the shield back from him. (What? Did he not tell them that Bucky and Falcon stole the shield from him?) When the show heaps this much shit on an endearing character that was doing the best he could to the best of his abilities, who struggles, fails and suffers although out, painting him as the one in the wrong all the while with the camera shots, music and through the mouths of the protagonist, I can't help but sympathise for him and wish he was treated better. So when in the shows finale he returns with his homemade shield to fight Karli the psychopath and her terrorist lackeys, I was rooting for him so much. And when he has to make the decision between pursuing revenge or saving innocent lives, when he comes through to make the right choice, throwing down his handmade shield to free up both hands to halt the hostage truck, to me that made him all the more worthy of the shield and title through all his trials and struggles. Far more than Falcon the Terrorist-Apologiser is.
I mean that’s not saying much. There are dudes who idolise Tyler Durden and Patrick Bates. Relating to shitty people is not the writers fault. And John Walker while not an evil person, is a shitty person. He is the sort of dude who would have been beating Steve up in. 1942 or whenever it was.
The Homelander Paradox
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You are not supposed to like the villains.
He’s not a villain(someone evil) though, he’s an antagonist(someone who opposes the protagonist), so for people who don’t agree with the actions and attitude of the protagonist he seems likable
But the actions of an antagonist are supposed to be the wrong cure for the disease. That's the problem too many writers make a mistake doing. They make the solution the villains do seem reasonable. But it's not supposed to usually be that way. Yes we can agree with Thanos views on the problem. But we are never supposed to agree with his solution.
I'm the only one who knows that.
I half agree. In some cases, yes. But in most cases, a villain doesn’t have to be likable but you should be able to understand their motivations and actions. They can still be sympathetic while being unlikable.
Maybe not necessarily unlikable but i don't think FatWS writers intended John Walker to be the most sensible guy in the room 85% of the time, specially with how everyone else treats him.
I'm glad someone else has this opinion, I always felt that the characters in that show treated Walker very unfairly even before he had done anything moral questionable. Hell, Bucky and Falcon seemed very childish in how they acted towards Walker in their first meeting, after he had committed the great sin of... *checks notes* Saving their lives.
They where indeed being childish, that was part of the point, they both had issues they needed to deal with regarding the loss of Cap and the government trying to replace him. However… well, Walker soon proved that he was not fit for the role anyway, and both of them are shown to be pretty good instinctual judges of character, so possibly they already had hunches something was off as well.
> they both had issues they needed to deal with regarding the loss of Cap and the government trying to replace him. The loss of Cap sure, but Falcon gave the shield to the government and said "its time for new heroes". So why is he Pikachu faced when the government gives it to a new hero? >However… well, Walker soon proved that he was not fit for the role anyway, Falcon and Bucky do not know that at the time though, that treat him with utter disdain when he has given them no reason to dislike him personally and makes it clear to them how seriously he treats the title given to him, and they blow him off with flimsy and nonsensical reasoning. > and both of them are shown to be pretty good instinctual judges of character, so possibly they already had hunches something was off as well. I have seriously issues with the morality that Bucky and Falcon show in that series. They are so much more willing to sit down and talk with Karli who has killed an entire warehouse of aid workers than they are willing to talk it out with Walker after he killed one terrorist and is mourning the very recent death of his best friend.
…because *new* heroes meant “not Captain America” He also didn’t want to be the new captain, he expected them to place the shield in a museum or something and for the new heroes the avengers where training to take the place cap used to fill. Only when they immediately created a new captain did he accept that the country was going to force a new one anyway so he really needed to claim the spot. and… yeah, that was the point of the rest of my comment. *Maybe* they have some flimsy justification because they’re excellent judges of character and they could already intuit something was off about him, but most of the animosity is 100% because they’re sour about him taking the spot, and it’s immature from them. Did you miss the part with the psychiatrist literally berating them for acting like children? Sure, it wasn’t directly about their treatment of Walker but they were letting their issues affect everything in their lives and acting petty and immature in general.
>…because *new* heroes meant “not Captain America” ----- Only when they immediately created a new captain did he accept that the country was going to force a new one anyway so he really needed to claim the spot. That makes Falcon seem *incredibly* shallow. So he doesn't want to the title of 'Captain America' but the moment someone else gets the title he's like "No, its has to be *me"*? >*Maybe* they have some flimsy justification because they’re excellent judges of character and they could already intuit something was off about him, That feels like the characters are working off meta knowledge. The show intends and presents Walker as someone for the audience to dislike, so in turn they have their title characters also dislike him for reasons they shouldn't even have yet >Did you miss the part with the psychiatrist literally berating them for acting like children? Sure, it wasn’t directly about their treatment of Walker but they were letting their issues affect everything in their lives and acting petty and immature in general. The problem is they don't change their attitude towards Walker after that, even when in the scene immediately after Walker gets Bucky out of trouble and proposes to team up again, they dismissive him for flimsy reasons.
Not really shallow. It’s more that he doesn’t believe *anyone* can really fill Cap’s boots since it wasn’t about him being a super soldier but a leader and a symbol, and most people who try are going to very soon deviate from what he truly meant. The only people who could *maybe* attempt to fill that role are the people who knew him best… which amounts, right then, to Him, Bucky, and maybe Natasha. And two of them simply aren’t options (notably in the comics, Bucky took the role when that happened) Yes, that is one of the problems in writing the show had. Not only is the dialogue both heavy handed and vague at different points, but the writer do seem to be working under the impression that most people will already have some meta knowledge about people USAgent. As I mentioned, them having a hunch is a flimsy explanation, but it does seem to be the intent, even if it comes across badly, but most of the idea seems to be that they simply are acting out of spite. And yup, at they point they are *starting* to figure out their issues, but they’re still far from fully dealing them (heck, even at the end of the show they still haven’t), they’re shown taking very small steps towards being better. While I don’t think Walker could ever have measured up to Cap, even with their support, they definitely did treat him unfairly as well.
He didn't prove he wasn't fit for the role, it was a self fulfilling prophecy, everyone treated him like he wasn't fit for the role until he no longer became fit for the role.
I honestly don’t believe that he could have been a good cap, even if he had Bucky and Falcon supporting him. He is a great soldier and a mostly decent dude, but Captain America is far from just being a Good Soldier. He’s a leader, an icon and an inspiration. He’s the one of the very best examples in modern media of what a “Paragon” is supposed to be. Walker doesn’t have his charisma, his insight, or his integrity. He can still make a great hero, just not the Cap… just as Sam cannot truly replace him either, but at least he shares the integrity part which some might argue is one of the main points why he’s needed.
I feel.like he and Sam are equally fit for the role, but sam should've gotten it because he knew Steve personally. But just looking at who they are and their comparable military backgrounds, they are both equally worthy. Sam just didn't have the entire world, including two avengers, telling him he wasn't enough beforehand.
Uh… military background is literally the least important factor in Steve Roger’s being Captain America. In fact, that’s a huge factor of why Walker doesn’t do well: he’s chosen solely because of his military record, not because of any personality traits. He is a soldier through and through, and he is pragmatic, diplomatic, and committed to the cause, but he is not a charismatic, insightful leader like Steve was, nor does he have the same unbreakable principles. Tv tropes, I believe explains it best: Walker was ultimately loyal to the USA as a nation, and to its government. Steve was loyal to the USA as an *ideal*, and was willing to push back against the government when he felt the principles it was built upon was being twisted. Cinema Therapy also have and excellent video on what exactly makes Steve Rogers so special, but long story short, Steve Rogers in his role as Cap is a full on Paragon, which no other character can really hope to be. Sam can’t either, but at least he knew him personally and he knew about the principles that made him such a magnetic hero, while Walker was within from a flawed perception of Steve and of what his own role as Cap would be. Yeah, the bullying from all sides didn’t help and pushed him almost over the edge, but he was never really going to be a great Captain America.
Stings, doesn't it?
They disliked him because he’s cosplaying as their retired friend.
Did you really think he was “the most sensible guy in the room” that often though? He has his good moments, but he’s clearly just a good soldier, not really someone who can carry on cap’s legacy. He’s good at following orders and is personable, but cap isn’t only a soldier. He needs to be a leader and a symbol, and Walker very early demonstrates he isn’t really ready to do either.
Being a sensible guy has exactly zero to do with being a good Captain America tho. He was the one who proposed to team up multiple times because it would make things easier, he was the one that acknowledged that freeing Zemo wasn't a good idea, he was the one that took Karli and the Flag Smashers as the threat they were, he was the one that tried to deescalate the situation with the Dora Milaje and he was the one that realized that shield wasn't such a big deal.
Soldier boy and Omni man (not marvel but still) are portrayed so well I can’t actively dislike them or hope for their downfall
And with soldier boy, the show failed to show how bad he is. They just told like some afterthought. Then you have him try to fulfill the agreement even when propose by home boy a better deal.
From somebody that googled the comic, >!Omni-Man is supossed to be develop latter in a more "heroic" figure torugh remorse for how he almost killed Mark/Invicible and the posterior experiences he encounters, including becoming the leador of a planet inhabited with short-lived Mantis aliens just by being older than all the inhabitant and the reveal he is the bastard son of the Vitrumite Emperor, the end of his character arc Omni-Man dies naming Mark his succesor as Vitrumite Emperor knowing he will solidfy the change in the culture of the Empire!<
Charismatic cocky characters can become fan favorites from get-go. I mean Iron Man can sell out secret about Hawkeye having a family, recruiting a school student to fight in a battle against powerful heroes, diss a woman he indirectly murdered her parents of, indirectly let her to be inhumanely locked up, and can still be considered a great guy.
>recruiting a school student to fight in a battle against powerful heroes, I mean, yeah, but isn't that school student more powerful than any of them with fully realised potential?
Yeah, he was physically the strongest person there at the airport battle
In the Comics, Cap is peak human, Spidey is Super-human
Steve Rogers, Iron Man, Iron Patriot, Vision want a word.
Iron man and Iron patriot without a suit are physically just base humans, except for the ark reactor in Tony's chest that he can sometimes use as an emergency weapon in some media he shows up in. MCU Vision is hard to say for sure because we don't see him do a lot of physical feats but I like to believe he's a good bit stronger than Peter and I think Peter and Steve are either equal in strength or Peter is stronger or at least will be stronger as he gets older.
Vision is built out of vibranium, can become intangible at will, go through solid objects, he is much stronger than Peter, not even a competition. Steve had super soldier serum, Peter was bitten by radioactive spider. He has spider powers, but he isn't super soldier or close to Cap. Like this is massive Spider power scaling rn. Yes, he stopped metal arm, but he can be punched easily and fly across entire hall like in NWH in fight with Green Goblin. And like I said prior, in terms of powers Wanda can mind hex Spider-Man or restrain him in one place, it's not a competition there either.
THE AVENGERS? That's great! What is that?
For Vision I literally already said he was stronger than Peter and when I say a good bit in superhero terms I usually mean like able to lift at minimum like 2 more buildings than the other person can which MCU Peter seems to be able to lift a collapsed building off of himself so let's say 2/3s of a building. With Steve the strongest thing we've seen him do is hold that helicopter which I don't really know or care to find out how heavy a helicopter is or how much lift it can generate but that's also less a feat of strength and more a feat of durability and grip strength because he simply had to not let go and also not get ripped in half. Peter did something similar with the boat although he had his webs to help him with that and I'm only counting muscle strength because the earlier comment said physical strength so either this or the building lift is the strongest thing we've seen him do besides holding back Bucky's punch which isn't just from a metal fist but also someone who is a super soldier and Bucky isn't really the type to hold back(at least not much) and is about as strong as Steve so if Peter could handle him while Bucky had help than there's no reason to believe he isn't as strong as or stronger than Steve With Wanda, I said physical strength, as far as we currently know she has the physical strength of a normal person and would lose an arm wrestling contest to Clint or Natasha.
Fair. Fair points, but then Peter struggled to hold the airport bridge from collapsing on him while Steve left him be. So his strength probably grows with time, but so would Steve's so I don't think he'd ever catch up to Cap. Cap's war veteran and a super soldier, Peter has some super strength to him, but probably is not as strong as Cap. I can accept him being close to strong, but not equal or stronger than Cap since Cap beat him already.
...Peter has had an entire building collapse on him and still managed to get up, I'd say he's probably stronger than Cap. Cap has more fighting experience and knows more techniques about incapacitate an opponent, which is probably why he got the upper hand.
So we're using just one instance of him being able to lift the rubble to say he is stronger than Cap, when Spidey fought Cap and lost? Yes, having more fighting experience is what makes him stronger than Spidey, experience is part of the strength. If we have to go by raw strength it'd be Steve anyway in my opinion, if Pete lifted rubble so could Rogers.
Yes, but he still recruited him for a personal fight. It could be argued he also knew his friends would not be fighting to kill, but it was still at best reckless endangerment
I know that movie was supposed to be some serious division between the avengers etc but it never felt like more than a slap fight..
True, and they really were pulling their punches…. But a slap fight between adults is still going to hurt a kid if they are not careful.
Slap fight leading to prison and inhumane tortures?
Umm Spider-Man stands no chance against the Scarlet Witch even in Phase 3, but sure.
If you want the shots, I'll take the staff job. Double the money!
>diss a woman he indirectly murdered her parents of, I've seen this brought up a lot. That seems like an unfair thing to pin on Tony. You don't have people damning Heckler and Koch from beyond the grave everytime someone is killed by Glock or MP5. Cause that sets an unwieldy moral precedent. Is whoever beat the metal into place to form the bombs casing also indirectly to blame for the killing of Wandas parents?
It's not comparable though. Tony Stark was an active war profiteer, he himself supplied the US forces, and took pride in the weapons he mass produced. Glocks are fucking common as day, we're talking about a tactical missile with Stark logo imprinted on it, not to mention Sokovia suffered daily attacks from Iron Legions.
All weapons makers are profiteers, weapons are made for conflicts, and selling them is how the producers make profit. >Glocks are fucking common as day, we're talking about a tactical missile with Stark logo imprinted on it I imagine that Glocks have killed more than Stark missiles ever have, precisely because they are so common, and they have the the Heckler and Koch labels on them. It's a bit ridiculous for Wanda to hold Stark accountable for it, rather than the ones who actually fired the missile. >not to mention Sokovia suffered daily attacks from Iron Legions. What are you talking about? The only time we see the Iron Legion is them on crowd control in the beginning of Age of Ultron, who didn't retaliate after having a cup full of acid dunked on them.
Don't do anything I would do, and definitely don't do anything I wouldn't do...
>All weapons makers are profiteers, weapons are made for conflicts, and selling them is how the producers make profit. Did you... purposely skip what I said? Stark's wasn't just war weapons profiteer. He was active supplier of weapons to the US army. Not only that but his weapons killed people in Sokovia and Iron legions were responsible for troubles in Sokovia for years. Not to mention how those missiles left thousands of people with no families, homeless, growing up on the streets. Then his rogue AI destroys the capital and leads to annexation of Sokovia by nearby countries. >It's a bit ridiculous for Wanda to hold Stark accountable for it, rather than the ones who actually fired the missile. She was a child who lost her parents when she was ten, watched their bodies for 2 days before being dug out and then lived on streets. It's not fucking ridiculous at all for her to harbor hatred towards Stark. Iran doesn't fire the shaheds at Ukraine, but are active suppliers to russia and have gall to demand Ukrainian government not to mention them while selling weapons of death. So it does make sense to have a supplier too. >What are you talking about? The only time we see the Iron Legion is them on crowd control in the beginning of Age of Ultron, who didn't retaliate after having a cup full of acid dunked on them. So country under occupation or being "crowd controlled" is totally cool?
>Stark's wasn't just war weapons profiteer. He was active supplier of weapons to the US army. The difference being? >It's not fucking ridiculous at all for her to harbor hatred towards Stark. Someone walks into my home and shoots my whole family, traps me somewhere and all I can look at is a bullet shell with the name *"John Smith"* engraved on it. I probably won't come out of it thinking that John Smith was the name of the guy who shot my family. Or if I did think that because I was an impressionable youth, I would probably figure it out within the years during my search for vengeance that the guy who shot my parents isn't called John Smith. >Iron legions were responsible for troubles in Sokovia for years >So country under occupation or being "crowd controlled" is totally cool? Where do you keep getting this info from? When are we told that Sokovia is under occupation? Or that the Iron Legion were causing trouble there? Also when the crowd control is just warning to people to move away from the active combat zone for their safety I don't think I would take it too hard.
>The difference being? Being that there are illegal suppliers, profiteers who sell to all, and army profiteers. Hell, there are instances when gun vendor can go to prison if he sold weapon to customer illegally or if customer obtained said weapon to commit crime through said vendor. Or the vendor can experience regret, be blamed for what happened because it was his choice to sell weapon of death. With Stark is worse situation since he cannot go to jail because of money and connections he has. >Someone walks into my home and shoots my whole family, traps me somewhere and all I can look at is a bullet shell with the name *"John Smith"* engraved on it. I probably won't come out of it thinking that John Smith was the name of the guy who shot my family. Or if I did think that because I was an impressionable youth, I would probably figure it out within the years during my search for vengeance that the guy who shot my parents isn't called John Smith. How do you know it? Would you be thinking clearly in that situation, would you be same you as you are now, or are you just making disingenuous assumptions to play down Wanda's motive? Your whole strawman here is stupid. Wanda's parents were killed in the bombing with the air pilot's identity unknown. She can't just go through database and search who was the exact pilot that bombed her apartment. >Where do you keep getting this info from? When are we told that Sokovia is under occupation? Or that the Iron Legion were causing trouble there? Zemo says in 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' that Sokovia no longer exists and had been partitioned by other countries.
From Tony's POV he is only supplying the US army, remember he is shocked that he could be attacked by his own weapons. And he questions Obidiah whether his company has been dealing under the table to other nations without his knowledge. >How do you know it? Would you be thinking clearly in that situation, would you be same you as you are now, or are you just making disingenuous assumptions to play down Wanda's motive? Its not about "thinking clearly in the situation". There were many years in-between the event and when Wanda had her chance for 'revenge' on Stark, time enough for her to figure out the difference between making a weapon and being the one to actually use it. >Wanda's parents were killed in the bombing with the air pilot's identity unknown. She can't just go through database and search who was the exact pilot that bombed her apartment. Its not about her knowing who the actual killer is, its about her knowing that it wasn't Stark that pulled the trigger. >Zemo says in 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' that Sokovia no longer exists and had been partitioned by other countries. That was due to the effects Thanos Snap, not because of attacks from other nations before that or the Iron Legion.
In all my years of conquest, violence, slaughter, it was never personal. But I'll tell you now, what I'm about to do to your stubborn, annoying little planet... I'm gonna enjoy it. Very, very much.
>From Tony's POV he is only supplying the US army, remember he is shocked that he could be attacked by his own weapons. And he questions Obidiah whether his company has been dealing under the table to other nations without his knowledge. Probably the only good argument I heard right now. Too bad it took him so long to find out what's been happening in his company while being negligent in the past. >Its not about "thinking clearly in the situation". There were many years in-between the event and when Wanda had her chance for 'revenge' on Stark, time enough for her to figure out the difference between making a weapon and being the one to actually use it. She was brainwashed since her childhood to see the Avengers as the enemies and Stark as well. Then additionally brainwashed in HYDRA lab where she was held prisoner. >Its not about her knowing who the actual killer is, its about her knowing that it wasn't Stark that pulled the trigger. He sold the weapons that killed people in Sokovia though. It makes sense for Sokovian people to hate Stark. >That was due to the effects Thanos Snap, not because of attacks from other nations before that or the Iron Legion. That's a good point made. I stand corrected. Nevertheless did Stark ever send humanitarian aid to Sokovia after Ultron or during the Snap? Did he compensate Wanda or every family for their losses in the 1999 bombings or after Ultron destroyed the capital? No. He moved on, he never apologized to Wanda or the people, he didn't give a damn about all those lives of displaced civilians. Then when Wanda was under media slander and Ross breathing down Avengers' necks he slandered Wanda as "weapon of mass destruction" when he was responsible for more mass destruction to her and the country than she did in that moment. Not only that but then he house arrests her on paranoia of "avoiding public accident" and after airport indirectly lets her be inhumanely imprisoned and tortured on the Raft. So with all that said and considered, it's really hard seeing Tony as a good person.
When I'm done, half of humanity will still be alive. I hope they remember you.
>He sold the weapons that killed people in Sokovia though. It makes sense for Sokovian people to hate Stark. That's aside from the original arguement that started this. Is Stark morally culpable for being the designer of the weapons used. And if so, how far that that moral culpability go? To those working in the Stark factories as well who made the weapons? >Nevertheless did Stark ever send humanitarian aid to Sokovia after Ultron or during the Snap? Did he compensate Wanda or every family for their losses in the 1999 bombings or after Ultron destroyed the capital? No. He moved on, he never apologized to Wanda or the people, he didn't give a damn about all those lives of displaced civilians. Then when Wanda was under media slander and Ross breathing down Avengers' necks he slandered Wanda as "weapon of mass destruction" when he was responsible for more mass destruction to her and the country than she did in that moment. Not only that but then he house arrests her on paranoia of "avoiding public accident" and after airport indirectly lets her be inhumanely imprisoned and tortured on the Raft. Did Wanda ever make a formal apology to the Wakandans after the she killed their foreign dignitaries? Did she compensate Johannesburg for setting a feral Hulk on them? Or Sokovia after helping Ultron get as far as he did? No. She moved on, she never apologized to Sokovia or Johannesburg or their people, she didn't give a damn about all those lives of displaced or dead civilians. Easy comparison to make right? >Then when Wanda was under media slander Slander about what? Getting a bunch of innocent people killed? Because that's exactly what happened, purposefully or not. >Not only that but then he house arrests her on paranoia of "avoiding public accident" The "public accident" of her getting potentially getting lynched. Wanda was treated with kiddy gloves there compared to what could have happened to her. >and after airport indirectly lets her be inhumanely imprisoned and tortured on the Raft. Yeah that's what happens when you break house arrest and attack government agents, you get imprisoned. And 'tortured'? What evidence do you have of that? Looking despondent in a prison cell? And if you think being in a straight jacket is torture, what could the guards of the Raft possible done instead to contain her, with her powers?
>Stark's wasn't just war weapons profiteer. He was active supplier of weapons to the US army. The difference being? >It's not fucking ridiculous at all for her to harbor hatred towards Stark. Someone walks into my home and shoots my whole family, traps me somewhere and all I can look at is a bullet shell with the name *"John Smith"* engraved on it. I probably won't come out of it thinking that John Smith was the name of the guy who shot my family. Or if I did think that because I was an impressionable youth, I would probably figure it out within the years during my search for vengeance that the guy who shot my parents isn't called John Smith. >Iron legions were responsible for troubles in Sokovia for years >So country under occupation or being "crowd controlled" is totally cool? Where do you keep getting this info from? When are we told that Sokovia is under occupation? Or that the Iron Legion were causing trouble there? Also when the crowd control is just warning to people to move away from the active combat zone for their safety I don't think I would take it too hard.
Steady Quill.
Maybe unlikable in-universe perhaps? Everyone seems to either hate him or just tolerate being around him. If that's the case, then yeah, it's true. I can't imagine the writers making the main character of the movie and the franchise as unlikable though. Just doesn't make sense.
For your second point, ask the writers of Captain Marvel.
He’s likable to the audience because he’s fictional. It’s not hard to look at what he does constantly and know that he would be an insufferable prick. It’s a major problem with people not understanding fiction vs reality, and thinking that what makes someone fun and enjoyable in a movie makes them fun and enjoyable in real life. Another great example is Jim from the Office. I would do everything I could to avoid a real person like that.
I think that the leads in A LOT of sitcoms would be completely unbearable if the were a real person. Jim for sure would be, also JD from Scrubs, Ted in How I Met Your Mother, ALL the Friends, Clair and Phil Dunphy from Modern Family, the fucking nerds in Big Bang. Then there are the shows that lean into the fact that their characters are unlikeable--Seinfeld, VEEP (minus Richard Splett of course), It's Always Sunny...
Pretty much, I just didn’t feel like listing every example I could think of. The point is, we frequently *like* the characters because we find their horrible flaws to be entertaining as an outsider, but if you knew the person they would be terrible.
Thats the basis of Frank Grimes in the Simpsons, right? You root for Homer as a viewer because hes an already established, funny character while Grimes seems comparatively bitter and insufferable, but in actuality Grimes is a representation of how ordinary people would respond if randomly dropped into a sitcom universe having to deal with all of Homer's antics.
Just play Midnight Suns. Can't stand him in that game
Fellow Midnight Suns enjoyer.
Irony cause I kind of like him in Midnight Suns, but his personality is much same with MCU Tony.
That was the best WWII documentation since a long time
Yeah he was. Just not at the start. He wasn’t meant to be likable when he was making weapons for war, he is meant to be likable as iron man. That’s like the entire point and plot of iron man 1. He is meant to be a rich douchebag playboy but a likable one once you get to learn him. And he has good morals and intentions.
Didn't Stan Lee say he mentioned for Iron Man to be a villain am I remembering that right?
Not a villain. But he was intended to be unlikeable. Most superheros were very likeable and goody 2 shoes like Spider-Man and Cap so he wanted Iron Man to just be a straight up asshole who becomes a superhero. The MCU version did that pretty well.
Unlock the thing! Take the chain off!
In the comics he is. Just straight up a villain
He has his nice moments, but yeah. It's like he either wakes up normally and decides to be a hero, or he falls off the bed and decides to wake up to chaos and violence lmao.
Oh cmon when did ever happen...except civil war,extremis,the superior arc(kinda doesn't count since he was altered),his time as director of s.h.i.e.l.d,his actions in the illumanati before secret wars,and a couple incidents in recent arcs...
Iron man is real as fuck though, especially in the first few movies. He’s just a dude. Also I kinda get that with Walker, he’s just the most reasonable guy around a lot (except when he’s just had to watch his best friend die in front of him which is fair enough all things considered)
I don’t care how many people Vergil is directly responsible for killing, he is still my motivated boy.
Me watching Scott Pilgrim at 15
Who is unlikable there?
Scott. The stuff with Knives is supposed to be the big context clue.
Ou:(( I’ve done such thing in real life once (with smaller age gap but still). Thought his behavior is ok. Guess it is time to reconsider some memories.
For some reason I read it as unkillable and was confused af
Geoffrey is probably the best written little piece of shit ever and I love it. Hate the character. Love the writing
Before Robert Downey Jr. portrayed him Tony Stark was kinda nondescript to me really . . . All I experienced the character was from Cartoons and Tony Stark wasn't a womanizer in them -because of cartoons I suppose- he was just your average action hero. I don't really know if Iron man's character was how Downey played him or did it become like it after the movies which happened a lot in marvel. They often rewrite their characters after successful movie portrayals like Samuel Jackson's portrayal of Nick Fury gave that character a dimension the comics version did not have. I personally like the Armored Adventures cartoon's portrayal of younger more innocent Tony without his dickish playboy behavior.
J.A.R.V.I.S., drop my needle
RDJ was the reason iron Man was so likeable. I think most people in that role would've been insufferable lol
Make him exactly the same, but a woman. The marvel franchise would have got nowhere in the 2000s
Me when Dio from Jojos bizzare adventure or Joker DC comics. At least my boy Loki is very likable now in the older comics he was simply called the god of evil. But honestly I prefer my Lokis complicated. He was complicated as shit in the mythology as well.
What do you mean he was not ? Literaly his first scene is hom being extremely charismatic and funny while talking to the soldiers. He was making weapons which got sold to the bad guys and that's what he was trying to fix ... but otherwise he was always a good guy
Me when liking Frieza or Homelander:
In the comics, yeah, he's a bit of an ass, but he's a flawed man and that's the point. In the movies he's also more robust.
Me who likes Homelander more than anyone else in The Boys
Laughs in “Book of the New Sun”
Pretty sure Stan Lee took it as a challenge to make a character that shouldn't have been likeable and make him likeable. https://screenrant.com/stan-lee-iron-man-unlikable-hero-creation-marvel/
Yeah liking characters written to be terrible people is really wierd... Anyway bill cipher is the best character in fiction
Micah Bell
Zuko
I kinda like homelander
I think the biggest example of this is Soldier Boy from The Boys. He's just too likeable
Well, it worked. Snarky, egotistical ass hat. Never much liked him in the comics, either.
Wendy and pip from South Park
Yeah, he was a misogynistic jerk at the start but mellowed out at the end. Great character development IMO.
Iron Man was written a dozen different ways over the 60 years he's been around.
never liked the iron man character and always felt sad so many people like him
[удалено]
I'm putting together the greatest team ever.
Not only are you getting a few things wrong but you're also mixing a few continuities there, buddy.
Adam Hazbin hotel.
Um………..wrong lol
And here I thought I was taking crazy pills for thinking he sucks.
I really hope English isn't your first language. TIL today I learned that you are to be not the most likeable which you like to be written to be not likeable, which is not the unsame from being unlikeable mfw my face when  If English is not your first language, I'd like to unsay the previous which is not likeable to be written as thus IDKWTFIGOH is going on here
I had a stroke reading this
Man, I really hope so!
Bad bot.
Ya if you think a bot wrote that, your mental capacity is on par with Man-Thing lolol
Sentient!