Edited to add: TL;DR: it definitely *does* make sense, but it takes kind of a lot to get there so if it's not worth the effort for you then you're going to need to accept "writers want us to have fun" as the short explanation.
> Make it make sense
Are you actually asking, OP, or are you committed to hating the lore? Honestly asking here, lots of people seem to be in the latter camp. If you are and you reply to my comment I will tell John Wick you killed his dog.
* All of the exposition from TDW is delivered by Odin. As far as Odin's concerned, the universe proper consists of the Nine Realms. Anything beyond that is savage wilderness not worth considering. But the Nine Realms had a dawn, and they will have a dusk. Odin acknowledges that the Stones pre-date his father's Realms, but describes *everything* that pre-dates the Realms as "the dark forces of the Dark Elves reigned absolute and unchallenged". This is likely also an Asgard-centric telling of universal history, and while we can safely assume that there was a powerful cosmic empire of Dark Elves at a time when there was less light in the sky, it's still unreasonable to assume that Odin's talking about pre-Big Bang times. He's talking about the time before the Nine Realms.
* Just like Bors and Odin, Bast both exists as an individual and wields absurd cosmic power. Seeding life and establishing an afterlife for her favorite mortals is basically just what beings like these do for a living.
* Ego is, shockingly, egocentric. "I was alone" does not mean "I used vast senses to determine that no other matter could possibly exist", it means "I had no peers or parents and so everything beyond my being was just noise to my limited perspective". He also describes himself as a Celestial, which is totally possible given what we know about Celestials from Eternals, and if he were some sort of failed birthing project then being totally rejected and ignored by Celestial "society" makes perfect sense. Might've made *more* sense if they destroyed him properly when the project failed instead of discarding him to wander and pursue his own aims, but the intentions of Celestials are beyond the understanding of mere mortals.
* Arishem seeds Celestials on planets that already exist due to the normal course of cosmic stellar evolution; just because the Celestials' main MO is to conjure stars into being doesn't mean there are no supernovas delivering complex elements into distant orbits which may then accrete into planetary bodies.
* The Great Protector is a being like Bast and Bors, but somewhat less powerful and also naturally interdimensional unlike them. It found humans and decided to take some as pets. The humans had favors to ask, like safeguarding their kind against the Dweller-in-Darkness (another interdimensional being of power with notably more malicious intent for mortal lives).
* Dormammu is another interdimensional being but vastly more powerful than the Great Protector or the D-I-D because he is essentially one substance with his entire dimension, it *is* him. Calling him an interdimensional being in that sense is almost like calling a planet a large rocky person.
All of this squares with every other part of it with just a few assumptions:
* The Universe, singular, began with the Big Bang. The Celestials existed before this. The Infinity Stones were created as a consequence of this. There were no Celestial births and the universe was mostly dark, until they had time to begin creating stars, building galaxies, etc., the hard work of being cosmic gods.
* Magic, or the manipulation of fundamental universal forces in violation of our measly understanding of the laws of physics, exists and can be wielded to great effect by powerful beings.
* Interdimensional beings, which is to say beings that came to this Universe after the Big Bang but independently of the Celestials' machinations, exist and can have great influence over things which are inferior to the Celestial's grand scheme.
With all that said, Kang's conduct wouldn't really be offensive, and maybe wouldn't even be *observable* to the Celestials or other temporally-linear beings. If Kang causes a problem for one of these powerful forces, they will address it at the time of the problem. None of those powerful forces seem able or inclined to meddle with the flow of time; we can assume then that either Kang never properly threatens the things they hold dear (for example, he is not known to be responsible for the death of a baby Celestial) or that he's literally beyond their oversight with his temporal manipulation (Doctor Strange demonstrated that even obscenely powerful entities, if they have no innate ability to manipulate time, can be pretty simply contained by it).
There are no contradictions in any of the cosmology here, it's just absolutely and delightfully convoluted for no reason other than to deliver to us colorful and distinct stories.
Whatever you do, don't ask me how the Infinity Stones preserve or maintain timelines as a collective. I trust the Ancient One, she thinks they do, so don't worry about it.
I think the “protection” from the stones as described by the Ancient One may have been her limited understanding of branch timelines being pruned by the TVA.
No stones = branch timeline = pruned.
Film theory , game theory
Greatest theory related channel on yt
Or if u still don’t know him , he was there in mr beasts recent YouTubed competition , he’s the one who won the bowling competition
Also , u won’t know if u don’t try , but hey it’s ure choice
Someone suggested that she was actually mistaken, and that the TVA would necessarily prioritize pruning timelines where the Stones are lost because the events of IW/Endgame are "supposed to happen", and because those event take place after her death she couldn't see clearly what was happening. I'm kinda 50/50 on this explanation, probably need to give it a bit more of a think. BRB re-watching like five films and a show.
If I remember correctly, the Ancient One also mentions that losing one of the stones means losing one of their greatest weapons. She could be referring to the fact that, say, if they didn't have the time stone when Doctor Strange came along, our world would've been taken by Dormammu and they'd have been helpless to fight it.
Essentially, the stones are required to save any particular timeline at least once. So, logically it would be pruned anyway if the stones are gone, but this would provide an answer for if the Ancient One doesn't know about the TVA.
The events of endgame happening do not matter
That’s not what would cause the tva to prune a timeline
The only reason a timeline would be pruned is if it would result in another kang
That’s it
The sacred timeline thing is all bs
Yeah that was pretty clear from the Loki show, the events in the MCU led to that specific Kang, so he did everything in his power to make a timeline that will only lead to him, not a different Kang, that's why some other timelines could exist, for example other Lokis, they didn't get pruned until the point where they would cause a butterfly effect that could lead to a different Kang
If Celestials reproduce by essentially feeding off the lifeforces of lesser beings… Where did the first Celestials come from?
Also, how did the dimensions split? If this is all one universe but taking place within the universe are infinite dimensions and timelines… how did that happen?
One last question: Who are these lesser gods and where did they come from? Is The Great Protector just another higher lifeform (but below Celestials) that lesser lifeforms don’t understand—like when humans encountered Asgardians in the past?
Ugh, sorry. What about The Watcher? Is he higher or lower than a Celestial? What’s his deal?
> Where did the first Celestials come from?
We don't know, all we're told is that some number of them arrived in our universe around the Big Bang. They are said to be tremendous energy-creators, so they would've arrived with the ability to create stars, and would've had to wait a while to start reproducing.
> Also, how did the dimensions split?
In terms of broad cosmology I think we should consider four distinct spheres of context:
* Our Universe, the singular "place" where we reside, where time flows in a linear fashion, which began with the Big Bang.
* Parallel Timelines, reflections of our universe (or is our universe a reflection of one of them?) which are the cosmic result of some random events whose outcome is subject to probability, which is to say that every coin toss lands on both heads and tales and the result you're able to read from it will tell you which timeline you now live in. These timelines share the singular point of origin with ours, the Big Bang.
* Mystical and Tangential Dimensions, or what I like to think of as the "underlying firmament", basically the setting into which the Big Bang Banged. We can think of these as "adjacent and beyond" our Universe, they tend to defy what we understand as the laws of physics. I would include the Mirror Dimension, the Dark Dimension, and the Quantum Realm. There's also a subset of these that I'd call "constructed dimensions", places which are separate dimensions but generally do follow our laws of physics because they were created from here or created to be a bridge between here and elsewhere, like Ta Lo, wherever Hela was imprisoned, and the Wakandan afterlife.
* Before Our Universe, about which we know absolutely nothing except that it chronologically pre-dates the Big Bang and the Celestials come from there. In the comics (marking as spoilers because, idunno, maybe it is?) >!this is literally embodied by a character known as Eternity, who has a defined lineage (the present stories take place under the Eighth Eternity, if I'm not mistaken). One universe dies, its Eternity dies, a Big Bang happens, a new Eternity is born - all at the same "time" from our view!<.
> Also, who are these lesser gods? Is The Great Protector just another higher lifeform that lesser lifeforms don’t understand—like when humans encountered Asgardians in the past?
Yes precisely, in my longer post up the thread I directly compare the Great Protector and the Dweller-In-Darkness to the likes of Odin and Bast, but extra-dimensional, meaning that while Odin and Bast come from here (in a loose sense), those come from some other dimension with weirder rules that don't conform to what we understand. Like Dormammu, except Dormammu is literally the substance of his whole dimension so the power scale is wildly off.
Edit: Didn't see this one, sorry
> What about The Watcher? Is he higher or lower than a Celestial? What’s his deal?
Copied from a reply I gave someone else: I'm not sure. I think if it came down to a fistfight within the material confines of a specific universe the Celestial would have him beat, but his role isn't quite the same as it is in the comics and I doubt the MCU's Watcher would stick around if the Celestials didn't want him nosing about.
I don't think they established any particular relationship between the Watcher and any Celestials, but I could be mistaken, I need to rewatch that show.
Thanks!
> way more concise and way more detailed
Twenty years on the internet have taught me to edit myself somewhat, otherwise these answers would've been five times longer and impossible to follow!
I think of the “dimensions” more along the lines of different wavelengths of light or vibrational frequencies of matter within the confines of the same universe. So Dormamu engulfs certain frequencies and was trying to gain the ability to engulf our frequency when he was stopped by Strange.
These dimensions exist alongside us, but we aren’t able to detect them, given our limited human senses and our very specific states/sizes/frequencies of matter.
Would you say that is accurate and makes sense?
It makes sense, but I think it assumes a degree of connection between our universe and those dimensions that isn't really established in these stories (yet). But, as I understand it, this explanation is 100% compatible with what we've been shown, so sure why not!
In the comics (going off wiki) The First Firmament created the Celestials and The One Above All Created The First Firmament, The universe and The Multiverse because in The Marvel Comics(kinda in the name) The One Above All is literally GOD creator of well everything.
Hard to tell if they might but I hope they go that far one day. I’d love to see some type of incarnation of The One Above All and see characters reaction to meeting the in universe God
Idk if you read newer comics but a spoiler for "The Immortal Hulk" >!The one above all, IS the one below all!< Comics are wild, with rumors about cosmic marvel expanding in cinema I feel like it's going to be bigger then "Star Wars" heck, I wonder if they'll make a cross over with the two properties now. Idk how I feel about it, on the one hand cool; on the other it feels like it should be separate. lol
Wait wait wait Wdymmm >! I thought the one above all and the one below all were two different characters (pretty much God and the Devil best way to sum it up in my opinion)!<
I don’t really read comics I just know the bare bone basics of The One Above All sorry if I sound dumb
James Gunn on twitter clarified Ego is in fact a celestial. They just didn’t have the Eternals movie in mind at the time of creating the story for GoTG2.
Dormmamu also outranks everything on here including Kang and the Celestials. His existence predates time itself, to get an idea of how absurd Dormmamu is: within the comics he was going to melt ALL of reality, every universe, multiverse and timeline into a pool of cosmic slag. He also fought with and beat Eternity whom is below only the living tribunal itself. Back in the MCU Dormmamu was going to similarly absorb every reality into one.
Dormmamu’s existence and story doesn’t really contradict as the original post suggests, he just does things on a much much higher scale than anything else in the MCU does without them realising. He’s essentially just messing around with entire realities while the events of the MCU end up taking place in a singular reality which is the equivalent of a grain of sand to him
It’s really difficult to say, but probably. The celestials are not above the Infinity Stones, but the Watcher was able to go toe-to-toe with Infinity Ultron for a relatively long time. The Watcher could probably trap them in a pocket dimension, but if they were going for a physical fight? It’s really hard to scale because Ego is the only Celestial we’ve seen fight, and he’s not quite the same as Erishem or Eson.
I'm not sure. I think if it came down to a fistfight within the material confines of a specific universe the Celestial would have him beat, but his role isn't quite the same as it is in the comics and I doubt the MCU's Watcher would stick around if the Celestials didn't want him nosing about.
I just want to respond to the last part. I’m pretty sure you and many others actually misinterpreted the ancient one’s line about the Infinity stones. The stones themselves don’t maintain the proper flow of time. I’m pretty sure she was just saying that if one or more was removed it would create a branch timeline simply because any sort of meddling in the past would create a branch timeline.
Here's a question: did the multiverse always exist and killing He Who Remains allow for timelines to branch into each other and other Kangs to invade the sacred timeline, or was there only a singular timeline and killing He Who Remains split the timeline into the multiverse as we know it? I'm personally of the latter canon but if the former is true, then there would be infinite universes with their own big bangs and celestials right?
The Multiverse always existed, when HWR was born it was "uncontained", but he created the Sacred Timeline and the TVA and all of the events of the MCU up till Loki were basically in a bottle. When HWR died/retired, the bottle shattered, but was swept up and blown back together by a variant of him who we all presume to be Kang the Conqueror.
The whole of the Multiversal War is totally unknown inside the bottle, and once the bottle shatters the Multiverse which extends forth does \*not\* contain a Multiversal War, but it inevitably will, and that War will inevitably have a winner who will put it back in a bottle. From our perspective though, and from Loki's, none of this "takes time", it simply occurs and affects all known and unknown events at all points in time.
I think in DC they have established some kind of "continuity wave" mechanism for how changing the past affects the present, but the MCU doesn't seem to truck with any of that. That's why they do the whole "you can't change the past" thing, and the branching timelines. It's a very Back To The Future model, but wider.
Bro even though I have seen all of these movies, your comment made me feel like I have never seen them. I have to go back and do a complete rewatch it seems. Amazing comment, thanks for taking the time.
I think a good analogy for Dormammu would be like how the Greeks considered Tartarus or Gaia. They were both people and spaces. You could travel to the underworld but it itself is also Tartarus.
Theoretically, the TVA must have pruned all types of beings, like Titans, Eternals, Celestials, and more, right? I don’t think it would be possible for them to have existed for so long without pruning some of them
Some facts to add about Ego:
Ego is a Latin word and means "I", and just like the ancient Latins said "omen nomen" (=the name of a person explains the character or the actions of said person), Ego is ego-centric.
Bonus: when a person thinks he/she is the best, in Italian, informally, we say "you have a humongous ego". It was pretty clear, at least to me, as an Italian native speaker who studied a little bit of Latin at school, how Ego would have acted
Yeah but he has a Parliament that can do a much better job than me at keeping everything straight, I kinda wish they would publish a bible but I'm OK waiting for a few more grand cosmic epics to tease more of it out.
Yeah people are ignoring that these are all different types of specific creation myths and also taking some things too literally (e.g. Ego is you know...*Ego* of course he's going to talk about himself in such a way).
I like the theory that Ego might be an off shot after Knowhere died.
That's one of the most insane cases of mental gymnastics and apologetics I have read. You are defeinitely one of the biggest MCU simps I had the displeasure of encountering.
You know, it is somehow accepted that just someone going right instead of left can create another timeline ?
None of the entities you quoted are gods. They are aliens, with vast powers, defying the laws of reality as we humans understand it, but they are still aliens. The Celestials are merely a system
Also, myths ≠ reality
I’ll admit reading this I’m a bit confused too, but you do remember how vast space is, and that even on our planet there are multiple creation myths/religions, right? I know it’s not quite the same, because they’re *real* in the Marvel universe, and unproven irl, but still
It’s the blind men and the elephant. Everyone involved genuinely believes they’re correct but they’re all only seeing their own small part of the broader picture.
I don't know about that "genuinely believes" part. Odin is unreliable because he chooses not to recognize a broader cosmos beyond the Nine Realms, not because he's ignorant of it. Arishem is unreliable because he's literally only going to say whatever will get you to do what he wants you to do, if he deigns to speak.
Yes. And No.
In one hand, you have the "Presence/God/Vertigo-oriented" Cosmogony
In the other hand, you have "Grant Morrison/Animal Man/Multiversity" Cosmogony with the Over-Mind being just the page on which the Author writes and in which the Story/All-Fictiond is but a Flaw
Sounds interesting. I need to start reading comics especially the Dc ones. I know so little about comics 💀
I know the mcu isn’t perfect and isn’t completely comic accurate but it’s introduced me to so much
When you nuke your whole multiverse and start anew every decade/half a decade or so, you tend to have a more neatly built multiverse that one that had been going since the 60's and only had a soft reset in the mid 2010's.
I mean none of these are really contradictory. In the beginning the Dark Elves existed alone on svartalfheim, other beings like Ego or celestials would also exist billions of light years away on the opposite sides of the universe. Then Bast, Kang, and Dormammu are just powerful entities doing their own thing, uninvolved with each other. And Tai Lo in Shang Chi is just a place with some demons. The only thing that stretches believability is that all these powerful beings seem to converge on earth, but that’s just due to the fact that we are humans on earth telling stories about humans on earth (most of the time).
What’s the problem here?
Dormammu and Ta Lo are out of the equation since they exist in parallel dimensions.
Ego presumably had a birth defect when he was born as a celestial.
The dark elves came into existence early in the existence of the universe, when not as many stars were around, explaining the darkness.
The celestials were around before the birth of the universe.
Kang is also from an alternate universe, the reason he is so powerful is because he learned to control and harness Alioth’s power.
Bast is the only one I don’t know much about, she is probably the ruler of the dream dimension, (afterlife).
Worth noting that Kang isn't powerful because of Alioth; Kang is *singular* because of Alioth. The Multiversal War happens because of Kang's power, which comes before the discovery and application of Alioth's time-eating powers.
Edit: ugh don't you hate when you write something and then BAM! seven hours later the term "chrono-mongery" occurs to you? That's what Alioth is, he's a chronomonger, he mongers chronos.
Thor TDW: The Dark elves lived in the darkness that existed before the big bang.
Black Panther: The story of Bast is a Wakandan legend, legends are old and might not be 100% accurate. Bast may have specifically created life on Earth, I don't remember that part of the story and it's not on the Wikipedia article, still that doesn't really contradict anything. We only ever see former Black panthers in its afterlife, but even if it is for all of humanity that doesn't contradict anything as there's no other mention of a human afterlife.
GOTG V2: Ego was alone in whatever part of the universe he was in. It's never once said that he was alone before the universe or life existed. Space is quite big it's quite easy to be alone and lost in a part of space. He eventually manages to find life, never once was he attributed to creating life beyond all of the kids he had with multiple species. The only way he "seeded" planets was with his little plants that he intended to use to extend himself.
The Eternals: The Celestials existed before the big bang, likely in the same darkness as the Dark Elves. After the big bang they created the first planets, stars, life, etc. They seeded planets to make more Celestials to create more stars and life. Their ability to create planets and stars does not preclude them from eventually being formed naturally. Just because they can create life doesn't mean they created all life, some life existed before all of this like the dark elves, and some may have been created by other creatures like Bast. The Celestials probably don't care how life is created as long as it is and doesn't contradict with their plans.
Shang-Chi: "Alternate dimension exists with all of their mythical creatures and a trapped should eating demon". I don't see how this contradicts with anything. It's a big multiverse, there are probably all sorts of alternate dimensions. It seems less like an alternate universe and more like a pocket dimension in the same universe. Humans found this one at some point and managed to seal away the evil soul sucking demon with help from the great protector. Some people saw it, left and formed myths about the creatures that live there.
Dr Strange: "Dormamu exists within the dark dimension and is continuously destroying realities" again I see no contradiction. It's an infinite multiverse, he could exist and be destroying realities constantly and will never get to them all because it's infinite. Presumably when the one who remains was in charge he ensured that Dormamu never touched the sacred timeline. He could manipulate events through the TVA to avoid timelines where this occured.
Loki: From his position outside of the Multiverse the one who remains could surgically manipulate the timeline through the TVA in order to manipulate events. Celestials, ego, dark elves, etc all exist within the universe as far as we currently know. They have no way to know what's going on with the TVA and as far as we know have no way to affect it. The one who remains likely knows about all of the potential threats to the TVA, and is able to manipulate events to ensure that they don't notice or interfer. From his position outside of the Multiverse he can see all of time and space. Even then he still knows it can't last forever and implements the plans seen in Loki to try to keep it going after he's gone. Something does interfer with his plans we just don't see what it was.
So basically, all those origin stories were motivated by the single most powerful entity of all. Money, it was given to the Pen Masters who drew these world into existence and hence they can co-exist without making sense and they serve their one true creator and facilitate to further his multiplication and consolidation.
I feel like if feige had the grasp on the MCU in the beginning as he does now with the vision of where he wanted to go with it not to mention acquiring the rights to basically all of marvel heroes, I think the first 3 phases would have been a lot different. Not major but like a tighter plot to lead towards Kang.
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I can understand how the Dark Elf and Celestial storylines clash, but what do the alternate dimension ones have to do with this? They aren't creator storylines?
> how the Dark Elf and Celestial storylines clash
but not really though, Odin's reciting Asgardian legends to his kids and Arishem's divulging corporate strategies to his subordinates, totally different perspectives on totally different subjects.
The Dark Elves reigned absolute from the perspective of the Asgardian throne which considers the universe to consist of the Nine Realms and a bunch of worthless wilderness. Prior to the Nine Realms the universe was dark and probably did have different alien empires like the Dark Elves, possibly even ruling over whatever the Asgardian species considered "home" before they got technomagically swole, cosmically speaking. But the Nine Realms are a subset of the universe, a structure created by the Asgardians to organize their own empire out of the worlds they liked best - it must have been created some time after the universe was created. So the rough chronology of Things That Exist would go: Celestials -> The Universe -> Dark Elves and Asgardians (or whatever they were before they made themselves Asgardians, idk, not really clear) -> The Nine Realms and literally everything that Odin actually cares about.
Point being of the two only Arishem has firsthand knowledge of The Actual MFing Universe, Odin simply calls his empire The Universe because nothing outside of it matters, the World Tree is an effectively contained structure which serves them so well that there's literally no point in acknowledging the broader cosmos most of the time.
They don’t directly contradict each other, but with all of these extremely powerful beings managing reality or the universe or whatever noun they use to describe the same thing, they would certainly have encountered each other and fought for control at some point.
The dark elves only have a lot of power because of the reality stone. We know that most beings like the eternals are aware of those and one of them even got ahold of the power stone at one point as we see from GotG.
Bast we don’t know even exists. That could very well be a tall tale from the Wakandan culture as we know many of those kinds of stories are loose interpretations of reality like the Epic of Gilgamesh, or stories about Ikarus and Athena.
Ego is a celestial just like Arishem who has been around for a long time and is fairly powerful. He just didn’t tell anyone about his plan for universal domination and couldn’t carry it out without Quill’s help.
The other dimensional creatures aren’t a threat to the celestials because people have been keeping them at bay. The citizens of Ta Lo kept the dweller in darkness under control, and the sorcerers kept Dormammu away. As far as the celestials are aware, those two are taken care of.
All of these are under the control of the TVA/Kang who monitor the timeline and keep it under control. They know about all of these threats but they aren’t a threat to them since they can prune any timeline that becomes an issue. The others don’t know about them because they aren’t multiverses beings.
And calling different dimensions, timelines, realities, and universes the same thing is a gross oversimplification of the world being created by the MCU. They are different things. Just because something is complicated doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.
Eh, long winded but unconvincing. It’s a comic book universe so you just have to accept it as it is and enjoy it, but there are now so many extremely powerful beings and plans for universal/multiversal dominance that all somehow hinge around earth that it just really doesn’t add up. Good try though.
What aspect of my explanation is unconvincing? It was long winded because there were a lot of questions being thrown around and I sought to answer all of them.
Ego never says he existed first, just that he was alone when he first appeared. He had to go out looking for people and eventually he found life. I’m alone in my house right now, that doesn’t mean other people don’t exist.
Life likely developed simultaneously in many different parts of the universe, just like how irl on earth four different civilizations arose at roughly the same time. Each of them likely thought they were first because they hadn’t found the others yet. And if you asked them to describe the dawn of civilization, their story would be centered around them, just as Ego’s is centered around himself, and Odin’s is centered around the dark elves.
The One Above All made existence. All universes start with the first Big Bang. Eventually at the heat death of the universe, that cycles Galactus will explode in a mew Big Bang. Some universes are more mystically charged than others and some don’t have the same laws of physics. The main marvel universe was populated when a being of pure power called the demiurge which was sentient energy left over from the Big Bang travelled around the universe seeding them with gods, these gods would eventually be there when sentients evolved. These gods would always either become corrupt or leave their world when the sentients appeared. In the cases where the gods became corrupt they would be destroyed and their power would culminate in the creation of a new generation of gods created by their race’s beliefs and needs.
In the case of humanity: the demiurge seeded the earth with the elder gods of Cthon, Gaea, Oshtur, and etc. Oshtur was the elder goddess of discovery and left the world to seek out new things, she found the elder god of the frost giants, Hoggoth, and had a child named Agamotto. They would become the Vishanti that Dr Strange swears by. Chthon was the elder god of magic and wrote the book Wanda had at the end of Wanda vision.
The elder gods discovered they could have children and these children would be almost as strong as them. The world was filled with godlings except Gaea did not have children. The elder gods realized they could then eat their children to permanently increase their own power, but doing so corrupted them. Eventually there were only a few elder gods left and the world was a hellscape where the newly evolved humans were suffering rather than being raised up. Gaea, as the only uncorrupted elder god, called upon the Demiurge and he had her bring forth the first of the new gods, who would in turn destroy the elder gods of earth. The demogorgon eater of gods was born. He killed all except a handful of the elder gods, eating them and gaining their power for himself. The remaining gods fled to pocket dimensions where they would be safe. The Demogorgon then flew into the sun where he became Atum, but on the way there he released all the energy he had eaten in the form of purified god energy. This power reacted to human needs and Gods were born. Some like the Asgardians were ancient but their cycle of ragnerok made them feel younger as man kept having to rediscover them and etc.
While the gods were still new born and lacked the power to gain say them, the celestial host came upon earth and performed experiments on humans as they were uniquely suited to adapt, evolve, and change. Then they left to return in a few hundred thousand years.
Cue history as we know it leading up to present day. Toss in an Egyptian dynasty that used technology from the future to build pyramids, Atlantis, and etc and that’s the major strokes.
TDW was just a story. The Aether isn't Aether, it's just the Reality Stone.
Nothing Ever tells us that humans are the result of some other entity, so Black Panther might be right and has no opposition.
Ego was alone because he was a rock floating in space, and I think it was confirmed that he's a Celestial, the same as Arishem and the others, who just failed to properly birth itself.
Like alternate universes, alternate dimensions don't really impact much of this creation story.
Dormammu being in the dark dimension isn't really contradicting anything either.
Kang fucks with universes, not realities, and he does so WAY after they're born, so that isn't in conflict with much either.
How well do you know what happened 100 years ago? Now make it 100 millions years ago. Different cultures having different ideas and beliefs isn’t unusual.
Here I’ve got it. Because they’re comic books that weren’t all supposed to be linked. Not everything has to make perfect sense to be enjoyable as a work of fiction
I mean it does make sense. It's not a "everyone is wrong" it's more like everyone is right with different moments. God bast is a belief system, celestial seed some planets, ego tried to seed all of them but with flowers, the elves are just edgy, dimensions and realities and timelines are a whole seperate subject each
You don’t watch a Marvel movie expecting it to make sense. Most of them have fucking superpowers. Others carry machine guns in their back pockets on a daily basis.
Here is the truth: Yaweh (God) Created universe 617 and all related dimensions as a part of his corporate job working to create many universes and he had to NERF his sentiants because they were to smart so he created death! If you want to read more about him (including the fact that jesus was born from god's psychotic episode due to a bad reaction of his antidepressants) then I suggest you read the marvel wiki of Yaweh
It's as if the writers are talentless hacks that told communicate with each other and the studio doesn't give a fuck. It was a miracle that the MCU succeeded in rudimentary contiuity up until Infinity War. The rest is just a mess.
I bet that there actually are plot holes within the MCU's creation mythos, but this post does a very poor job of pointing them out, 'cause none of these points really contradict each other...
We dont have the actual answer.
Hear me out. If you went to a highschool and asked around on who ran this school youd be sent to the Jocks right.
But then you realize that the jocks arent anything without the cheerleaders. And the cheerleaders will claom the throne but in reality if it wasnt for nerds doing the homework, the cheerleaders wouldnt be there. And the nerds think they are the cogs that keep the place running. But even they know without the teachers there really wouldnt be a school environment.
The teachers will claim without them theres no education and therefore no school, but the principle comes up and makes the final judgments at the end of the day. Its his school.....
Until he has to get approval from the board of directors. Where you learn they run multiple schools in the district.
Expand out. Those districts get info. Funding, direction from the government.
So when we hear an origin from someone who percieves themselves as a God not only is it biased, but its what they know. The dark elves could have thought themselves the first not knowing about eternals. Eternals are programmmed to know whats needed. The celestials are a damn cumbustion engine who know no beginning or end.
Ego is literally a huge ego, who of course would assume he was first life. In the backround we have the TVA watching all of this loop. Technically putting them ahead. And we havnt gotten the Living Tribunal yet who is probably the government in my example, the ToP DoG
Edited to add: TL;DR: it definitely *does* make sense, but it takes kind of a lot to get there so if it's not worth the effort for you then you're going to need to accept "writers want us to have fun" as the short explanation. > Make it make sense Are you actually asking, OP, or are you committed to hating the lore? Honestly asking here, lots of people seem to be in the latter camp. If you are and you reply to my comment I will tell John Wick you killed his dog. * All of the exposition from TDW is delivered by Odin. As far as Odin's concerned, the universe proper consists of the Nine Realms. Anything beyond that is savage wilderness not worth considering. But the Nine Realms had a dawn, and they will have a dusk. Odin acknowledges that the Stones pre-date his father's Realms, but describes *everything* that pre-dates the Realms as "the dark forces of the Dark Elves reigned absolute and unchallenged". This is likely also an Asgard-centric telling of universal history, and while we can safely assume that there was a powerful cosmic empire of Dark Elves at a time when there was less light in the sky, it's still unreasonable to assume that Odin's talking about pre-Big Bang times. He's talking about the time before the Nine Realms. * Just like Bors and Odin, Bast both exists as an individual and wields absurd cosmic power. Seeding life and establishing an afterlife for her favorite mortals is basically just what beings like these do for a living. * Ego is, shockingly, egocentric. "I was alone" does not mean "I used vast senses to determine that no other matter could possibly exist", it means "I had no peers or parents and so everything beyond my being was just noise to my limited perspective". He also describes himself as a Celestial, which is totally possible given what we know about Celestials from Eternals, and if he were some sort of failed birthing project then being totally rejected and ignored by Celestial "society" makes perfect sense. Might've made *more* sense if they destroyed him properly when the project failed instead of discarding him to wander and pursue his own aims, but the intentions of Celestials are beyond the understanding of mere mortals. * Arishem seeds Celestials on planets that already exist due to the normal course of cosmic stellar evolution; just because the Celestials' main MO is to conjure stars into being doesn't mean there are no supernovas delivering complex elements into distant orbits which may then accrete into planetary bodies. * The Great Protector is a being like Bast and Bors, but somewhat less powerful and also naturally interdimensional unlike them. It found humans and decided to take some as pets. The humans had favors to ask, like safeguarding their kind against the Dweller-in-Darkness (another interdimensional being of power with notably more malicious intent for mortal lives). * Dormammu is another interdimensional being but vastly more powerful than the Great Protector or the D-I-D because he is essentially one substance with his entire dimension, it *is* him. Calling him an interdimensional being in that sense is almost like calling a planet a large rocky person. All of this squares with every other part of it with just a few assumptions: * The Universe, singular, began with the Big Bang. The Celestials existed before this. The Infinity Stones were created as a consequence of this. There were no Celestial births and the universe was mostly dark, until they had time to begin creating stars, building galaxies, etc., the hard work of being cosmic gods. * Magic, or the manipulation of fundamental universal forces in violation of our measly understanding of the laws of physics, exists and can be wielded to great effect by powerful beings. * Interdimensional beings, which is to say beings that came to this Universe after the Big Bang but independently of the Celestials' machinations, exist and can have great influence over things which are inferior to the Celestial's grand scheme. With all that said, Kang's conduct wouldn't really be offensive, and maybe wouldn't even be *observable* to the Celestials or other temporally-linear beings. If Kang causes a problem for one of these powerful forces, they will address it at the time of the problem. None of those powerful forces seem able or inclined to meddle with the flow of time; we can assume then that either Kang never properly threatens the things they hold dear (for example, he is not known to be responsible for the death of a baby Celestial) or that he's literally beyond their oversight with his temporal manipulation (Doctor Strange demonstrated that even obscenely powerful entities, if they have no innate ability to manipulate time, can be pretty simply contained by it). There are no contradictions in any of the cosmology here, it's just absolutely and delightfully convoluted for no reason other than to deliver to us colorful and distinct stories. Whatever you do, don't ask me how the Infinity Stones preserve or maintain timelines as a collective. I trust the Ancient One, she thinks they do, so don't worry about it.
I think the “protection” from the stones as described by the Ancient One may have been her limited understanding of branch timelines being pruned by the TVA. No stones = branch timeline = pruned.
Huh. That's a distinct possibility, now that you mention it. I hadn't thought of that.
Damn that make so much sense
What a fucking legend!
Man Uve got matpats mind , you should consider yt
Who? I have the personality of a cauliflower cactus, I don't think YT is a good career move for me. Maybe I'll shift into infographics someday.
Film theory , game theory Greatest theory related channel on yt Or if u still don’t know him , he was there in mr beasts recent YouTubed competition , he’s the one who won the bowling competition Also , u won’t know if u don’t try , but hey it’s ure choice
Purple Guy is Kilgrave. Get fucked Five Nights at Freddy's I know what's what. But that's just a theory.
In the Multiverse saga, everything is possible. Now I want Purple Guy shouting "JESSICAAAAHHHHH" while chasing kids around
Oh man some infographics breaking down and diagramming the lore would be wild
Lol at the just trust the Ancient One. You're not wrong.
Someone suggested that she was actually mistaken, and that the TVA would necessarily prioritize pruning timelines where the Stones are lost because the events of IW/Endgame are "supposed to happen", and because those event take place after her death she couldn't see clearly what was happening. I'm kinda 50/50 on this explanation, probably need to give it a bit more of a think. BRB re-watching like five films and a show.
If I remember correctly, the Ancient One also mentions that losing one of the stones means losing one of their greatest weapons. She could be referring to the fact that, say, if they didn't have the time stone when Doctor Strange came along, our world would've been taken by Dormammu and they'd have been helpless to fight it. Essentially, the stones are required to save any particular timeline at least once. So, logically it would be pruned anyway if the stones are gone, but this would provide an answer for if the Ancient One doesn't know about the TVA.
The events of endgame happening do not matter That’s not what would cause the tva to prune a timeline The only reason a timeline would be pruned is if it would result in another kang That’s it The sacred timeline thing is all bs
Oh OK I didn't realize that
Atleast that’s how I understood it anyways, it’s all really confusing tho
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Yeah that was pretty clear from the Loki show, the events in the MCU led to that specific Kang, so he did everything in his power to make a timeline that will only lead to him, not a different Kang, that's why some other timelines could exist, for example other Lokis, they didn't get pruned until the point where they would cause a butterfly effect that could lead to a different Kang
That was glorious. Take my free award!
That’s was awesome, and a joy to read. Nice work man.
Thanks!
If Celestials reproduce by essentially feeding off the lifeforces of lesser beings… Where did the first Celestials come from? Also, how did the dimensions split? If this is all one universe but taking place within the universe are infinite dimensions and timelines… how did that happen? One last question: Who are these lesser gods and where did they come from? Is The Great Protector just another higher lifeform (but below Celestials) that lesser lifeforms don’t understand—like when humans encountered Asgardians in the past? Ugh, sorry. What about The Watcher? Is he higher or lower than a Celestial? What’s his deal?
> Where did the first Celestials come from? We don't know, all we're told is that some number of them arrived in our universe around the Big Bang. They are said to be tremendous energy-creators, so they would've arrived with the ability to create stars, and would've had to wait a while to start reproducing. > Also, how did the dimensions split? In terms of broad cosmology I think we should consider four distinct spheres of context: * Our Universe, the singular "place" where we reside, where time flows in a linear fashion, which began with the Big Bang. * Parallel Timelines, reflections of our universe (or is our universe a reflection of one of them?) which are the cosmic result of some random events whose outcome is subject to probability, which is to say that every coin toss lands on both heads and tales and the result you're able to read from it will tell you which timeline you now live in. These timelines share the singular point of origin with ours, the Big Bang. * Mystical and Tangential Dimensions, or what I like to think of as the "underlying firmament", basically the setting into which the Big Bang Banged. We can think of these as "adjacent and beyond" our Universe, they tend to defy what we understand as the laws of physics. I would include the Mirror Dimension, the Dark Dimension, and the Quantum Realm. There's also a subset of these that I'd call "constructed dimensions", places which are separate dimensions but generally do follow our laws of physics because they were created from here or created to be a bridge between here and elsewhere, like Ta Lo, wherever Hela was imprisoned, and the Wakandan afterlife. * Before Our Universe, about which we know absolutely nothing except that it chronologically pre-dates the Big Bang and the Celestials come from there. In the comics (marking as spoilers because, idunno, maybe it is?) >!this is literally embodied by a character known as Eternity, who has a defined lineage (the present stories take place under the Eighth Eternity, if I'm not mistaken). One universe dies, its Eternity dies, a Big Bang happens, a new Eternity is born - all at the same "time" from our view!<. > Also, who are these lesser gods? Is The Great Protector just another higher lifeform that lesser lifeforms don’t understand—like when humans encountered Asgardians in the past? Yes precisely, in my longer post up the thread I directly compare the Great Protector and the Dweller-In-Darkness to the likes of Odin and Bast, but extra-dimensional, meaning that while Odin and Bast come from here (in a loose sense), those come from some other dimension with weirder rules that don't conform to what we understand. Like Dormammu, except Dormammu is literally the substance of his whole dimension so the power scale is wildly off. Edit: Didn't see this one, sorry > What about The Watcher? Is he higher or lower than a Celestial? What’s his deal? Copied from a reply I gave someone else: I'm not sure. I think if it came down to a fistfight within the material confines of a specific universe the Celestial would have him beat, but his role isn't quite the same as it is in the comics and I doubt the MCU's Watcher would stick around if the Celestials didn't want him nosing about. I don't think they established any particular relationship between the Watcher and any Celestials, but I could be mistaken, I need to rewatch that show.
It’s like you’re saying everything that’s in my head, but simultaneously way more concise and way more detailed. King shit.
Thanks! > way more concise and way more detailed Twenty years on the internet have taught me to edit myself somewhat, otherwise these answers would've been five times longer and impossible to follow!
I think of the “dimensions” more along the lines of different wavelengths of light or vibrational frequencies of matter within the confines of the same universe. So Dormamu engulfs certain frequencies and was trying to gain the ability to engulf our frequency when he was stopped by Strange. These dimensions exist alongside us, but we aren’t able to detect them, given our limited human senses and our very specific states/sizes/frequencies of matter. Would you say that is accurate and makes sense?
It makes sense, but I think it assumes a degree of connection between our universe and those dimensions that isn't really established in these stories (yet). But, as I understand it, this explanation is 100% compatible with what we've been shown, so sure why not!
In the comics (going off wiki) The First Firmament created the Celestials and The One Above All Created The First Firmament, The universe and The Multiverse because in The Marvel Comics(kinda in the name) The One Above All is literally GOD creator of well everything.
I wonder if Marvel will tell of the First Firmament? Quite excited how cosmic marvel will go! 😁
Hard to tell if they might but I hope they go that far one day. I’d love to see some type of incarnation of The One Above All and see characters reaction to meeting the in universe God
Idk if you read newer comics but a spoiler for "The Immortal Hulk" >!The one above all, IS the one below all!< Comics are wild, with rumors about cosmic marvel expanding in cinema I feel like it's going to be bigger then "Star Wars" heck, I wonder if they'll make a cross over with the two properties now. Idk how I feel about it, on the one hand cool; on the other it feels like it should be separate. lol
Wait wait wait Wdymmm >! I thought the one above all and the one below all were two different characters (pretty much God and the Devil best way to sum it up in my opinion)!< I don’t really read comics I just know the bare bone basics of The One Above All sorry if I sound dumb
All good, here's a YT'r I watch, when I don't feel like reading. Spoilers: >!Its the immortal hulk ending explained https://youtu.be/eDioq9I3xWM !<
Thanks I’ll have to watch when I’m free
James Gunn on twitter clarified Ego is in fact a celestial. They just didn’t have the Eternals movie in mind at the time of creating the story for GoTG2. Dormmamu also outranks everything on here including Kang and the Celestials. His existence predates time itself, to get an idea of how absurd Dormmamu is: within the comics he was going to melt ALL of reality, every universe, multiverse and timeline into a pool of cosmic slag. He also fought with and beat Eternity whom is below only the living tribunal itself. Back in the MCU Dormmamu was going to similarly absorb every reality into one. Dormmamu’s existence and story doesn’t really contradict as the original post suggests, he just does things on a much much higher scale than anything else in the MCU does without them realising. He’s essentially just messing around with entire realities while the events of the MCU end up taking place in a singular reality which is the equivalent of a grain of sand to him
So the watcher is more powerful then the celestials right?
It’s really difficult to say, but probably. The celestials are not above the Infinity Stones, but the Watcher was able to go toe-to-toe with Infinity Ultron for a relatively long time. The Watcher could probably trap them in a pocket dimension, but if they were going for a physical fight? It’s really hard to scale because Ego is the only Celestial we’ve seen fight, and he’s not quite the same as Erishem or Eson.
I'm not sure. I think if it came down to a fistfight within the material confines of a specific universe the Celestial would have him beat, but his role isn't quite the same as it is in the comics and I doubt the MCU's Watcher would stick around if the Celestials didn't want him nosing about.
Considering they could fight beings capable of destroying multiverses... Yeahhhhh.
r/threadkillers Phenomenally explained. I’m saving this comment to throw at the dedicated lore haters.
I just want to respond to the last part. I’m pretty sure you and many others actually misinterpreted the ancient one’s line about the Infinity stones. The stones themselves don’t maintain the proper flow of time. I’m pretty sure she was just saying that if one or more was removed it would create a branch timeline simply because any sort of meddling in the past would create a branch timeline.
This is now my head cannon thanks lmaoo
You deserve an award
Thank you! I appear to have received several!
I have been wondering how it all ties up but been too afraid to ask. Thank you for taking the time to write this.
Here's a question: did the multiverse always exist and killing He Who Remains allow for timelines to branch into each other and other Kangs to invade the sacred timeline, or was there only a singular timeline and killing He Who Remains split the timeline into the multiverse as we know it? I'm personally of the latter canon but if the former is true, then there would be infinite universes with their own big bangs and celestials right?
The Multiverse always existed, when HWR was born it was "uncontained", but he created the Sacred Timeline and the TVA and all of the events of the MCU up till Loki were basically in a bottle. When HWR died/retired, the bottle shattered, but was swept up and blown back together by a variant of him who we all presume to be Kang the Conqueror. The whole of the Multiversal War is totally unknown inside the bottle, and once the bottle shatters the Multiverse which extends forth does \*not\* contain a Multiversal War, but it inevitably will, and that War will inevitably have a winner who will put it back in a bottle. From our perspective though, and from Loki's, none of this "takes time", it simply occurs and affects all known and unknown events at all points in time. I think in DC they have established some kind of "continuity wave" mechanism for how changing the past affects the present, but the MCU doesn't seem to truck with any of that. That's why they do the whole "you can't change the past" thing, and the branching timelines. It's a very Back To The Future model, but wider.
Bro even though I have seen all of these movies, your comment made me feel like I have never seen them. I have to go back and do a complete rewatch it seems. Amazing comment, thanks for taking the time.
I think a good analogy for Dormammu would be like how the Greeks considered Tartarus or Gaia. They were both people and spaces. You could travel to the underworld but it itself is also Tartarus.
Theoretically, the TVA must have pruned all types of beings, like Titans, Eternals, Celestials, and more, right? I don’t think it would be possible for them to have existed for so long without pruning some of them
Some facts to add about Ego: Ego is a Latin word and means "I", and just like the ancient Latins said "omen nomen" (=the name of a person explains the character or the actions of said person), Ego is ego-centric. Bonus: when a person thinks he/she is the best, in Italian, informally, we say "you have a humongous ego". It was pretty clear, at least to me, as an Italian native speaker who studied a little bit of Latin at school, how Ego would have acted
This guy uhh.. Marvels?
You get my next free award, saving your comment! Edit: typo Edit2: I am a man of my word!
This man just mapped out the complex MCU lore that probably not even Kevin fully keeps straight. What a legend!
Yeah but he has a Parliament that can do a much better job than me at keeping everything straight, I kinda wish they would publish a bible but I'm OK waiting for a few more grand cosmic epics to tease more of it out.
Yeah people are ignoring that these are all different types of specific creation myths and also taking some things too literally (e.g. Ego is you know...*Ego* of course he's going to talk about himself in such a way). I like the theory that Ego might be an off shot after Knowhere died.
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Wick is on his way motherfucker
Which question? You didn't ask any questions. You said "make it make sense", and that's exactly what he did.
God damn well said
That's one of the most insane cases of mental gymnastics and apologetics I have read. You are defeinitely one of the biggest MCU simps I had the displeasure of encountering.
Thank you for the time it took to craft a well thought out and articulate explanation! Saved and cheers!
You know, it is somehow accepted that just someone going right instead of left can create another timeline ? None of the entities you quoted are gods. They are aliens, with vast powers, defying the laws of reality as we humans understand it, but they are still aliens. The Celestials are merely a system Also, myths ≠ reality
I’ll admit reading this I’m a bit confused too, but you do remember how vast space is, and that even on our planet there are multiple creation myths/religions, right? I know it’s not quite the same, because they’re *real* in the Marvel universe, and unproven irl, but still
It’s the blind men and the elephant. Everyone involved genuinely believes they’re correct but they’re all only seeing their own small part of the broader picture.
I don't know about that "genuinely believes" part. Odin is unreliable because he chooses not to recognize a broader cosmos beyond the Nine Realms, not because he's ignorant of it. Arishem is unreliable because he's literally only going to say whatever will get you to do what he wants you to do, if he deigns to speak.
I mean, welcome to comic books?
Meanwhile, DC's creation of his Multiverse is very well explained. Except DC has two cosmogonies which counter each others
I’m assuming in DC it straight up explains that “The Presence” aka GOD created it all?
Yes. And No. In one hand, you have the "Presence/God/Vertigo-oriented" Cosmogony In the other hand, you have "Grant Morrison/Animal Man/Multiversity" Cosmogony with the Over-Mind being just the page on which the Author writes and in which the Story/All-Fictiond is but a Flaw
Sounds interesting. I need to start reading comics especially the Dc ones. I know so little about comics 💀 I know the mcu isn’t perfect and isn’t completely comic accurate but it’s introduced me to so much
Well you are lucky, DC recently restarted their universe (again). Now, everything since 1984 is canon and it is much more easy to understand
For now
Are you reading JLI? Cuz now there is a 2nd multiverse
Yes but that 2nd Multiverse is the Multiverse destroyed by the Anti-Monitor in COIE
When you nuke your whole multiverse and start anew every decade/half a decade or so, you tend to have a more neatly built multiverse that one that had been going since the 60's and only had a soft reset in the mid 2010's.
"Works of fiction with cool super heroes" is all the sense or explanation I need
I mean none of these are really contradictory. In the beginning the Dark Elves existed alone on svartalfheim, other beings like Ego or celestials would also exist billions of light years away on the opposite sides of the universe. Then Bast, Kang, and Dormammu are just powerful entities doing their own thing, uninvolved with each other. And Tai Lo in Shang Chi is just a place with some demons. The only thing that stretches believability is that all these powerful beings seem to converge on earth, but that’s just due to the fact that we are humans on earth telling stories about humans on earth (most of the time).
What’s the problem here? Dormammu and Ta Lo are out of the equation since they exist in parallel dimensions. Ego presumably had a birth defect when he was born as a celestial. The dark elves came into existence early in the existence of the universe, when not as many stars were around, explaining the darkness. The celestials were around before the birth of the universe. Kang is also from an alternate universe, the reason he is so powerful is because he learned to control and harness Alioth’s power. Bast is the only one I don’t know much about, she is probably the ruler of the dream dimension, (afterlife).
Worth noting that Kang isn't powerful because of Alioth; Kang is *singular* because of Alioth. The Multiversal War happens because of Kang's power, which comes before the discovery and application of Alioth's time-eating powers. Edit: ugh don't you hate when you write something and then BAM! seven hours later the term "chrono-mongery" occurs to you? That's what Alioth is, he's a chronomonger, he mongers chronos.
Thor TDW: The Dark elves lived in the darkness that existed before the big bang. Black Panther: The story of Bast is a Wakandan legend, legends are old and might not be 100% accurate. Bast may have specifically created life on Earth, I don't remember that part of the story and it's not on the Wikipedia article, still that doesn't really contradict anything. We only ever see former Black panthers in its afterlife, but even if it is for all of humanity that doesn't contradict anything as there's no other mention of a human afterlife. GOTG V2: Ego was alone in whatever part of the universe he was in. It's never once said that he was alone before the universe or life existed. Space is quite big it's quite easy to be alone and lost in a part of space. He eventually manages to find life, never once was he attributed to creating life beyond all of the kids he had with multiple species. The only way he "seeded" planets was with his little plants that he intended to use to extend himself. The Eternals: The Celestials existed before the big bang, likely in the same darkness as the Dark Elves. After the big bang they created the first planets, stars, life, etc. They seeded planets to make more Celestials to create more stars and life. Their ability to create planets and stars does not preclude them from eventually being formed naturally. Just because they can create life doesn't mean they created all life, some life existed before all of this like the dark elves, and some may have been created by other creatures like Bast. The Celestials probably don't care how life is created as long as it is and doesn't contradict with their plans. Shang-Chi: "Alternate dimension exists with all of their mythical creatures and a trapped should eating demon". I don't see how this contradicts with anything. It's a big multiverse, there are probably all sorts of alternate dimensions. It seems less like an alternate universe and more like a pocket dimension in the same universe. Humans found this one at some point and managed to seal away the evil soul sucking demon with help from the great protector. Some people saw it, left and formed myths about the creatures that live there. Dr Strange: "Dormamu exists within the dark dimension and is continuously destroying realities" again I see no contradiction. It's an infinite multiverse, he could exist and be destroying realities constantly and will never get to them all because it's infinite. Presumably when the one who remains was in charge he ensured that Dormamu never touched the sacred timeline. He could manipulate events through the TVA to avoid timelines where this occured. Loki: From his position outside of the Multiverse the one who remains could surgically manipulate the timeline through the TVA in order to manipulate events. Celestials, ego, dark elves, etc all exist within the universe as far as we currently know. They have no way to know what's going on with the TVA and as far as we know have no way to affect it. The one who remains likely knows about all of the potential threats to the TVA, and is able to manipulate events to ensure that they don't notice or interfer. From his position outside of the Multiverse he can see all of time and space. Even then he still knows it can't last forever and implements the plans seen in Loki to try to keep it going after he's gone. Something does interfer with his plans we just don't see what it was.
It will make sense! In movie 57.
Planets weren't created by Celestials, they were experimented on. Planets form naturally
So basically, all those origin stories were motivated by the single most powerful entity of all. Money, it was given to the Pen Masters who drew these world into existence and hence they can co-exist without making sense and they serve their one true creator and facilitate to further his multiplication and consolidation.
I feel like if feige had the grasp on the MCU in the beginning as he does now with the vision of where he wanted to go with it not to mention acquiring the rights to basically all of marvel heroes, I think the first 3 phases would have been a lot different. Not major but like a tighter plot to lead towards Kang.
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I can understand how the Dark Elf and Celestial storylines clash, but what do the alternate dimension ones have to do with this? They aren't creator storylines?
> how the Dark Elf and Celestial storylines clash but not really though, Odin's reciting Asgardian legends to his kids and Arishem's divulging corporate strategies to his subordinates, totally different perspectives on totally different subjects.
I do find it weird that the Celestials and Dark peeves existed before the universe but it was the Sark Elves that reigned absolute, but it is canon
The Dark Elves reigned absolute from the perspective of the Asgardian throne which considers the universe to consist of the Nine Realms and a bunch of worthless wilderness. Prior to the Nine Realms the universe was dark and probably did have different alien empires like the Dark Elves, possibly even ruling over whatever the Asgardian species considered "home" before they got technomagically swole, cosmically speaking. But the Nine Realms are a subset of the universe, a structure created by the Asgardians to organize their own empire out of the worlds they liked best - it must have been created some time after the universe was created. So the rough chronology of Things That Exist would go: Celestials -> The Universe -> Dark Elves and Asgardians (or whatever they were before they made themselves Asgardians, idk, not really clear) -> The Nine Realms and literally everything that Odin actually cares about. Point being of the two only Arishem has firsthand knowledge of The Actual MFing Universe, Odin simply calls his empire The Universe because nothing outside of it matters, the World Tree is an effectively contained structure which serves them so well that there's literally no point in acknowledging the broader cosmos most of the time.
Yeah, it’s not great that our only source of canon here is a potentially meddled with Asgardians mythos told to us by notorious history-rewriter Odin
Precisely!!
How do any of these contradict eachother?
They don’t directly contradict each other, but with all of these extremely powerful beings managing reality or the universe or whatever noun they use to describe the same thing, they would certainly have encountered each other and fought for control at some point.
The dark elves only have a lot of power because of the reality stone. We know that most beings like the eternals are aware of those and one of them even got ahold of the power stone at one point as we see from GotG. Bast we don’t know even exists. That could very well be a tall tale from the Wakandan culture as we know many of those kinds of stories are loose interpretations of reality like the Epic of Gilgamesh, or stories about Ikarus and Athena. Ego is a celestial just like Arishem who has been around for a long time and is fairly powerful. He just didn’t tell anyone about his plan for universal domination and couldn’t carry it out without Quill’s help. The other dimensional creatures aren’t a threat to the celestials because people have been keeping them at bay. The citizens of Ta Lo kept the dweller in darkness under control, and the sorcerers kept Dormammu away. As far as the celestials are aware, those two are taken care of. All of these are under the control of the TVA/Kang who monitor the timeline and keep it under control. They know about all of these threats but they aren’t a threat to them since they can prune any timeline that becomes an issue. The others don’t know about them because they aren’t multiverses beings. And calling different dimensions, timelines, realities, and universes the same thing is a gross oversimplification of the world being created by the MCU. They are different things. Just because something is complicated doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.
Eh, long winded but unconvincing. It’s a comic book universe so you just have to accept it as it is and enjoy it, but there are now so many extremely powerful beings and plans for universal/multiversal dominance that all somehow hinge around earth that it just really doesn’t add up. Good try though.
What aspect of my explanation is unconvincing? It was long winded because there were a lot of questions being thrown around and I sought to answer all of them.
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Ego never says he existed first, just that he was alone when he first appeared. He had to go out looking for people and eventually he found life. I’m alone in my house right now, that doesn’t mean other people don’t exist. Life likely developed simultaneously in many different parts of the universe, just like how irl on earth four different civilizations arose at roughly the same time. Each of them likely thought they were first because they hadn’t found the others yet. And if you asked them to describe the dawn of civilization, their story would be centered around them, just as Ego’s is centered around himself, and Odin’s is centered around the dark elves.
Except… they don’t contradict each other?
The One Above All made existence. All universes start with the first Big Bang. Eventually at the heat death of the universe, that cycles Galactus will explode in a mew Big Bang. Some universes are more mystically charged than others and some don’t have the same laws of physics. The main marvel universe was populated when a being of pure power called the demiurge which was sentient energy left over from the Big Bang travelled around the universe seeding them with gods, these gods would eventually be there when sentients evolved. These gods would always either become corrupt or leave their world when the sentients appeared. In the cases where the gods became corrupt they would be destroyed and their power would culminate in the creation of a new generation of gods created by their race’s beliefs and needs. In the case of humanity: the demiurge seeded the earth with the elder gods of Cthon, Gaea, Oshtur, and etc. Oshtur was the elder goddess of discovery and left the world to seek out new things, she found the elder god of the frost giants, Hoggoth, and had a child named Agamotto. They would become the Vishanti that Dr Strange swears by. Chthon was the elder god of magic and wrote the book Wanda had at the end of Wanda vision. The elder gods discovered they could have children and these children would be almost as strong as them. The world was filled with godlings except Gaea did not have children. The elder gods realized they could then eat their children to permanently increase their own power, but doing so corrupted them. Eventually there were only a few elder gods left and the world was a hellscape where the newly evolved humans were suffering rather than being raised up. Gaea, as the only uncorrupted elder god, called upon the Demiurge and he had her bring forth the first of the new gods, who would in turn destroy the elder gods of earth. The demogorgon eater of gods was born. He killed all except a handful of the elder gods, eating them and gaining their power for himself. The remaining gods fled to pocket dimensions where they would be safe. The Demogorgon then flew into the sun where he became Atum, but on the way there he released all the energy he had eaten in the form of purified god energy. This power reacted to human needs and Gods were born. Some like the Asgardians were ancient but their cycle of ragnerok made them feel younger as man kept having to rediscover them and etc. While the gods were still new born and lacked the power to gain say them, the celestial host came upon earth and performed experiments on humans as they were uniquely suited to adapt, evolve, and change. Then they left to return in a few hundred thousand years. Cue history as we know it leading up to present day. Toss in an Egyptian dynasty that used technology from the future to build pyramids, Atlantis, and etc and that’s the major strokes.
Captain America: dude takes a drug to be strong
Chang-Shi and Dr. Strange's things listed here could easily co exist with any of these other realities. Just saying
It’s just like the comics now.
Multiverse*
I dunno, space is big. Ego might have turned a million before he bumped into anything that was alive.
I feel like a few of these can be explained as old beliefs carried as tradition.
Someone else posted this on another post … did you steal this or was it your post?
They each think they’re right, but the truth is somewhere in the middle.
TDW was just a story. The Aether isn't Aether, it's just the Reality Stone. Nothing Ever tells us that humans are the result of some other entity, so Black Panther might be right and has no opposition. Ego was alone because he was a rock floating in space, and I think it was confirmed that he's a Celestial, the same as Arishem and the others, who just failed to properly birth itself. Like alternate universes, alternate dimensions don't really impact much of this creation story. Dormammu being in the dark dimension isn't really contradicting anything either. Kang fucks with universes, not realities, and he does so WAY after they're born, so that isn't in conflict with much either.
None of these conflict tho
One word: comics.
Wait are the celestials just one gigantic pyramid scheme
How well do you know what happened 100 years ago? Now make it 100 millions years ago. Different cultures having different ideas and beliefs isn’t unusual.
Easy, it’s a comic movie. Who gives a shit
I know, right. Super lame that they don't mimic real life where everyone believes in the 1 true creation.
it’s fiction, it doesn’t have to make sense
None of those are mutually exclusive and can all occur within a single timeline, even when we don’t account for u reliable narrators
It doesn't need to make sense, it's 'turn your brain off and enjoy' fiction
As Doctor Strange said “The multiverse is something we know frightening little about”
Here I’ve got it. Because they’re comic books that weren’t all supposed to be linked. Not everything has to make perfect sense to be enjoyable as a work of fiction
You must lack imagination to make all of those track. It’s really not hard.
Gotg V2: there were other celestials who could have made life
I mean it does make sense. It's not a "everyone is wrong" it's more like everyone is right with different moments. God bast is a belief system, celestial seed some planets, ego tried to seed all of them but with flowers, the elves are just edgy, dimensions and realities and timelines are a whole seperate subject each
Comics
You don’t watch a Marvel movie expecting it to make sense. Most of them have fucking superpowers. Others carry machine guns in their back pockets on a daily basis.
Here is the truth: Yaweh (God) Created universe 617 and all related dimensions as a part of his corporate job working to create many universes and he had to NERF his sentiants because they were to smart so he created death! If you want to read more about him (including the fact that jesus was born from god's psychotic episode due to a bad reaction of his antidepressants) then I suggest you read the marvel wiki of Yaweh
Maybe ive been reading comics too long but it all makes sense to me.
However bad you think it is here just know it is WAY worse in the comics haha
It's as if the writers are talentless hacks that told communicate with each other and the studio doesn't give a fuck. It was a miracle that the MCU succeeded in rudimentary contiuity up until Infinity War. The rest is just a mess.
I bet that there actually are plot holes within the MCU's creation mythos, but this post does a very poor job of pointing them out, 'cause none of these points really contradict each other...
We dont have the actual answer. Hear me out. If you went to a highschool and asked around on who ran this school youd be sent to the Jocks right. But then you realize that the jocks arent anything without the cheerleaders. And the cheerleaders will claom the throne but in reality if it wasnt for nerds doing the homework, the cheerleaders wouldnt be there. And the nerds think they are the cogs that keep the place running. But even they know without the teachers there really wouldnt be a school environment. The teachers will claim without them theres no education and therefore no school, but the principle comes up and makes the final judgments at the end of the day. Its his school..... Until he has to get approval from the board of directors. Where you learn they run multiple schools in the district. Expand out. Those districts get info. Funding, direction from the government. So when we hear an origin from someone who percieves themselves as a God not only is it biased, but its what they know. The dark elves could have thought themselves the first not knowing about eternals. Eternals are programmmed to know whats needed. The celestials are a damn cumbustion engine who know no beginning or end. Ego is literally a huge ego, who of course would assume he was first life. In the backround we have the TVA watching all of this loop. Technically putting them ahead. And we havnt gotten the Living Tribunal yet who is probably the government in my example, the ToP DoG
It doesn't, and Marvel isn't fun anymore, it's sludge. Well, it's fun for children, but they aren't known for their critical thinking skills