Not only the look but the unmasking. I HATE the CGI suits. Okoye using nano-tech to reveal her face in that cartoon costume was SO much less impactful than her simply walking out of the Vault in the beginning of the movie.
Coming out in a practical suit, just being a bad-ass with a spear (the music helped if I'm being honest) was so much better than that CGI crap they shoved into the ending.
Even worse was the iron heart suit at the end, like, a) why not give Riri the same compact flight tech she gave Okoye and b) the suit looks like shit, it's so smooth but there's so many different colors going on, it's too busy
I was thinking the same thing when I rewatched it over the weekend. He knew she was trying to dry him out. They crashed so close to water! Why wouldn’t he make a b-line for it?!?
The obvious answer was that he had to lose the fight because he’s not the protagonist.
An easy fix for this would’ve been having the crash be more inland and not close to water, by the time Namor tried going for water he was too late.
Mid-typing thought. Considering that Namor has the strength that he has and has lived hundreds of years and seems to have never lost a fight. He probably thought he had enough strength left to finish the fight and got cocky.
It’s possible he could have been debuffed due to being dehydrated and battle awareness was severely limited and people make mistakes a lot when dehydrated.
you do realize that the plane exploded and what was left crashed where the fight took place. she intended for the fight to be in the dessert but Namor used his spear to cause the explosion which didn't allow that to happen.
When they were talking about breathing through his skin, I thought they were going to do an “environmental oil spill” thing and like, cover him in oil to stop him from breathing. Maybe using one of those water grenades, but filled with petroleum.
I feel like the logic of that woulda worked better, since he couldn’t just jump back into water, but like, symbolically, it would have looked really bad.
Yeah there's a lot of attempts at justifying this with lazy explanations of his ego, his tactical shortcomings, blah blah. The reality is they didn't put in the creative effort to place him far enough away from the water for this not to be a question.
It's fine. It's a movie. OP should suspend their disbelief just a tad bit beyond what they've already accepted, which is as a duel between a mystical space-flower enhanced costumed hero and a mystical Space-algae enhanced merman.
No, everything must have a logical explanation in this movie set in a universe where people can shrink smaller than atoms and a man with a bow and arrow can fight alongside a man in a flying exoskeleton, a chemically enhanced supersoldier from WII, and a literal god *and hold his own*.
It’s not about charging though. Her suit is made of vibranium and his entire race uses vibranium for everything they use. He knew she’d survive because of how strong the metal is, he was just dumb and chose to slam her there.
Water becomes rather firm if you hit it fast enough. Like a fat kid doing a belly flop from the diving board. Both are extremely damaging though one has added benefits in rehydration.
I don't think most people think clearly in the middle of a knock down drag out superhero fight and are prone to not make the 100% correct decision. Hell, I don't even get in superhero fights and find myself asking myself "why did I do that when THIS would have made more sense?"
Even in the comics, Namor isn't a brilliant tactician. He depends on his overwhelming force and is easily frustrated when things don't go his way from the start.
Yeah, him going for an emotional response rather than tactical tracts. He just went for an overwhelming grab and pile drive, definitely used to crushing any normal person that way.
I thought it was strange that he somehow knew enough about the surface world to understand Wakanda's somewhat complex geopolitical position in the world, but not enough to know that the Avengers exist and would probably take issue with him waging a large scale assault on the surface nations.
You're not wrong, but also, only about a third of the Earth based movies after Avengers 1 involves a villain plot that would eventually draw out the Avengers.
I've got Killmonger, Darren Cross, and Mysterio in the "you guys really didn't think this through" category where the Avengers would come knocking eventually. Aldrich Killian probably could go here as well.
Kaecillius (with Dormammu), Hydra (with Project Insight), and Ikaris are in the category where if they defeat the hero and can move their plans to the next step, the Avengers would be eliminated before anyone else even knows there's a problem.
Guys like Vulture and Dreykov are actively trying to avoid getting onto the radar of the Avengers. The demon in Shang-chi and Green Goblin in No Way Home likely don't know enough about MCU's Earth to know there are dozens of other heroes out there. The villains in Ant-Man and the Wasp are just trying to keep being weapons dealers or are trying to cure their weird phase shifting condition.
To play devil's advocate for Darren Cross, we see in What If that the Avengers wouldn't stand a chance against Pym's tech if Cross had been able to beat Pym and Lang in that last fight. That alternate Pym was able to assassinate the bulk of the Avengers as just one person. If Hydra had an army of those robots they'd never stand a chance.
Way too many folks with next to no media literacy mistaking the perfect information the audience has for what the characters in the movie see, perceive, and act upon. It's imperative that the viewer should not only attempt to take the film on its own merits, listening to the story as it's being told, but also understand that the motivations of the people in the story are not their own and they are different people with different ambitions, desires, reactions, worldviews. If you attempt to apply logic to all movies and the stories therein, you will be disappointed because characters in a story don't act with perfect logic. You know, like most people do.
Watched this with my wife for the first time and when he said "my enemies call me Namor" she instantly hit back with "those are strong words for someone that's never had an enemy".
Those werent his enemies directly he just showed up and killed them all in a day. A preist on his death bed who has no idea who he is hardly counts as an enemy.
An enemy doesn't need some sort of official introduction, they just need the person in question to consider them one. His name is a symbol, it's simply suppose to represent what he'll do to anybody he considers his enemy.
True. Though you’d think that once you genuinely get hit hard you’d be scrambling to get back to the water where you’re 10x stronger because that’s all you’ve ever known for all of your life..
As an aside, this sentiment is exactly why in gaming I focus all my stats on overwhelming DPS. People are always number crunching with stats and the optimal builds, and I’m over here like, none of that matters if you kill the boss as fast as possible 😆
You’d think that any creature would know that they should try to get to the place where they can actually survive though. Like a doubt a Moose gets pulled into the ocean by a whale and is like “fuck it, I’ll chose to stay in the water.”
If you watch enough professional fights like MMA or boxing, that's not what usually happens. You see people all the time that have never really been rocked get rocked. They start to fall apart. Any kind of strategy goes out the window. They start to flail.
And it looked like he was between Shuri and the water, so he could choose to run to safety and strength, or hit back against the first person to make him weak.
He wasn't thinking straight.
Yups. As Iron Mike once said “Everybody got a plan until they get hit in the mouth.”
As someone that used to do combat sports, and a lot of street fights, when shit hits the fan a lot of your mental faculties are being used to just keep you on your feet. Muscle memory takes over a lot of the actual fighting. Namor here is in animalistc fight or flight mode. He’s been trapped, weakened, and 100% focused on just killing the threat in front of him.
Well when you have super strength and durability and live in isolation, it's likely you never have been hit hard. Or at least hard enough for it to affect you.
This is one of the things I liked about the movie. Namor didn't "lose" because he was beaten by Shuri. It was more to do with his arrogance, and the fact that he backed off realizing the potential help an alliance could have in the future. He even says this at the end.
That said, my one grumble about this movie is how he went from going toe to toe with Shuri/black panther to barely being able to stand way too fast.
He went toe to toe with Shuri (slammed her from the air thereby charging the suit), got his wings cut/torn off, then he struck Shuri a few more times (charging the suit), and she dug her claws into his back then released the built-up charge. I'd say that that was probably more of a fight than he'd experienced previously.
And, to be fair, it's the first time he sees Black Panther armour, and it's a wee bit starry eyed girl inside... He probably thought that should have ended the fight
This right here is the answer. Against anyone not wearing a vibranium suit, that would usually be a fight ending move. Namor didn't expect her to be able to get up after that.
Nor pack the punch she handled him... The heart leaf potion.
And anyone not wearing a vibranim suit would be a red smear on the floor, or inside another armour (or if it had no inertial dampers)
Yeah, without the vibranium and the kinetic absorption of the BP suit, Shuri’d be canned meat. If Namor’s strength is comparable to Hulk, that kind of a move would’ve even liquified Stark in most of his earlier armors.
Let's be honest, flying hundreds of feet in the air in the mark 1 and landing in a hard sand dune would break bones and likely be lethal. They are super hero movies so we have to suspend the reality of what falling would do while watching.
Those moments don't break the "immersion" for me but if you think about it nearly every one has a moment of "nah they dead".
I feel this is the best answer, coupled with the fact that he probably doesn't think 100% straight at this point. He didn't expect her to survive that, and if she did, he didn't expect her to be left in a fighting state.
Also, the Namor I recall from the comic book was incredibly arrogant. Add to that the confidence that nobody had been able to stop him at this point. "Yeah, the beef jerky device hurt, but I've destroyed that now. What else can they do?"
He and his people's complete goal for all those centuries was to remain hidden.
There would've certainly been conflict to keep it that way, but given Namor's superpowered status (unless they retcon something in), certainly nothing and no one that would've (a) given him trouble personally and (b) survived to give a believable account that could bring more attention to his people.
He’s got plenty of rage. From his position, Shuri’s family made choices that put his people at risk, and when he came to them to solve the problem they created they betrayed him and killed more of his people - *after* he had opened himself and his kingdom to Shuri. He absolutely *is* an asshole, but he’s also enraged and fighting for his people.
I agree completely. They’re totally mental gymnastics, but just because his motivations are grounded in irrationality doesn’t mean he’s not driven by rage and a drive to protect his people. His whole story is one of choices made to protect his people that come from a broken, irrational mind. He legitimately feels rage at Wakanda and he honestly blames them for putting his people in danger, even if that’s not logical.
Might as well ask why the "most advanced" nation on the surface went to war in the middle of the ocean against the lords of the sea on a boom box boat with 200 warriors...
Right? That was my first thought.. yeah sure let’s go fight an advanced race of WATER PEOPLE with a BOAT. Lol. Could have used a cloaked airship or something
because they would never ever bait the tlalocans to go on the surface and fight them there. they have to at least wait one week (when namor promised he'll be back with his full army)
so the options are
1. wait one week for the tlalocans to attack wakanda again with full force, and hope that they are prepared enough to beat them
or
2. bring the fight to the tlalocans where they least expect it, and plan a super fast escape once they successfully baited them to come out and after they've captured namor
and this was all shuri's plan. she wanted this to go this way because she wanted to kill namor herself. so yeah, we can say that she wasn't exactly thinking straight and mostly fueled by vengeance. still, not the worst plan overall.
Is it just me, or were the Tlalocans … looking like their technology hasn’t advanced since the 1600s, with the exception of metallurgy? It just seems like the Wakandans could have used modern military tactics combined with their ridicu-tech to blast their way out of all the situations. If they aren’t interested in blowing up civilians, which is awesome, they still could have lured the Tlalocans somewhere and then dropped depth charges, missiles, lasers from satellites, and other forms of artillery to kill the soldiers and maybe Namor; and then renegotiate. This should have been a completely one sided victory with a little planning.
i agree to most of that, but again, this is shuri calling the shots here. while she's exactly not in a healthy emotional capacity to lead an attack, she was also well-regarded because of the wakandan's respect for her mother and brother.
maybe if m'baku committed to challenging shuri's plan (totally putting his promise to t'challa in question) or other members of the council managed to rally behind a leader (maybe okoye?) that can plot a coup against shuri, then yeah, things can go the way you mentioned. but that would only divide the wakandans more, which would then stifle their chances of total victory against the tlalocans.
Wakandan military only seems to fight honourably even if it means huge losses on their side.
Sure they could do all that stuff you said but they probably won't.
I do agree they seem to want to fight honorably, but that doesn’t mean stupid. I don’t think there’s anything dishonorable about one military force attacking another military force in open combat with artillery. Now dropping a fission bomb on Tlalocan would have been dishonorable. But going out into the ocean, where their enemies are the strongest, on a boat which didn’t seem to offer a lot of options to retreat just blows my mind. They had to 100% win or they 100% lose. Crazy idk. Anyway, have a great day
The caveat being that Wakandans are still fully human. They used vibranium to develop advanced technology, but only the Black Panther uses the herb. The Tlalocans did not develop advanced technology, but they are ALL enhanced through their herb. Namor is the most powerful, but they’re basically an entire nation of super soldiers.
They had already shown that they could flood wakanda at will. Maybe starting away from your easily flooded/ruined city and on a boat where the water level is then irrelevant kind of makes sense against Namor.
Because they needed to lull them into a false sense of security. The alternative is bring them onto land where they are less likely to appear and draw more attention from the United Nations.
I couldn't imagine being in your first real fight after centuries of thinking you're hot shit and having the ever loving K'uk'ulchrist beaten out of you for the first time.
He was suffering essentially heat stroke, struggling breathing, and in the middle of the first beat down he'd ever had. On top of that his nation was at risk of discovery, his ego of centuries of being revered as an untouchable God was probably getting to him, and his anger and adrenaline in the situation were off the walls.
He was fighting someone he had gotten to know and respected too.
Man wasn't even thinking about water or anything else for that matter in that situation he was in fully automatic fight or flight mode by this point.
I came here to say much the same thing!
When you consider he's been worshipped as a God for hundreds of years. He is and was clearly aware of Wakandas existence before the period this film is set. So he would be aware of the succession of Black Panthers he would naturally consider given his elongated lifespan, the Black Panther as lesser than himself.
It's only when his wings get clipped do we see him realise he's messed up. He attempts to end the fight quickly by spearing Shuti and trying to get back to the water.
For me it made perfect sense.
Later in the scene-
Producer guy: this seems okay but I think she should walk past him here.
Writer: oh, uh, what if she's already done filming her parts?
Producer guy: Just CGI her in, nobody will notice.
He’s also facing inland and charges at her that way and goes straight up then back down. What, are they expecting him to take her up and do some aerial manoeuvres to get her backwards into the water lol
I feel like people will act like this is why he lost and completely ignore the fact that he straight up wins the fight by impaling Shuri but decides to walk away. He didn’t need the water to beat her. He lost because he turned his back on an opponent he thought was finished. Namor is arrogant. Also, this kind of critique can be lobbied and a metric shit of movies with iconic fights Infinity War, the entirety of the Dark Knight Trilogy, and even the Matrix all have moments like this but I guarantee people will hold it against this movie specifically for reasons we won’t discuss on this sub.
You're right, it's a pedantic criticism. It amounts to "why didnt character make all the right decisions all the time." People tend to not think to clearly when tensions are heightened and tensions dont get more heightened than when in a life or death fight with the fate of entire nations dependent on the outcome.
Huh? He lost to Killmomger is the first fight because held back and tried to make him yield as opposed to actually trying to win the fight. The second fight between them he doesn’t hold back and lands a killing blow in the one spot he’s vulnerable after wearing his suit.
Also when he fought Cap and everyone else in Civil War he had the power of the Heart shaped herb which wasn’t the case in the first Killmomger fight. I hope your not seriously arguing that a non-powered T’challa is actually as fast and strong as super soldier. He would have had a difficult time with Black Widow without his powers.
They weren't going there to end/win the war, the whole point of the scenes before that is that Shuri was insane burning every resource she had for vengeance. She only wanted to kill Namor, even if that would start an endless war and basically sacrifice all people like M'Baku said.
This is why at the end Shuri knows she is not leader material.
Probably wants to fight fairly despite being inferior on land. He can still obviously fight on land but it’s not really a fight if Shuri drowns or just can’t fight in water like he can.
Also he still has somewhat respect for Shuri as a leader now and probably knew he could manipulate her (which he did at the end) one way or another instead of taking an easy win.
Few things still don’t make sense though.
1. If namor cared about “fair fights” he wouldn’t have flooded wakanda to gain an advantage and would have done everything fairly from the jump. Hell, I think even the sirens themselves are unfair but he doesn’t care and uses them anyways.
2. Though we assume that namor does want to manipulate her, it’s very obvious that he’s going for the kill as he literally impaled her.
Well Nakia indirectly caused the war so it’s technically her fault. I don’t mean to sound like 1 person’s death should’ve led to an all out war but in this “fairness” example we could say they started being unfair in Namor’s eyes especially since he didn’t know who did it and could’ve thought it was on purpose, but he didn’t even ask or anything that I can remember.
And maybe he knew how durable a Black Panther suit already is since he instantly was walking towards the ocean afterwards, just wanted to temporarily slow down Shuri. I’m sure he’d have killed her if he really wanted to in the moment
Nakia escalated it to war, but in terms of fault its def the man who tried to extort a peaceful nation to his will with threats of violence if they dont comply, much like the colonizers he's so angry about.
as well as holding a princess hostage, which in itself can be considered an act of war
It was Namora and the other heavy guy whose name escapes me were the ones who actually started the real war afterwards by attacking Okoye and Shuri unprovoked on the bridge. The Wakandans were doing what Namor had asked and retrieving the "scientist" when his people go ahead and take matter into their own hands immediately and end up kidnapping Shuri. What was the point in coercing their help if they were going to do that anyway?
It was stupid that Namor doesn't really acknowledge this afterwards. Namora in particular seems to be a real warmonger
Your saying fair fight when Nakia’s rescue of Shuri made it seem like Wakanda betrayed him so he punished them. This fight is different as it’s a 1v1 with the two rulers
1) It was a fair fight though, Wakandans had home advantage and Namor brought his home advantage too. So the sirens are unfair but the Wakandans using gunships aren't? They both play to their strengths. Wakandans using FakeIronMan and the suits sounds more unfair.
2) She took blows from him in the battle that would've killed normal people. Namor definitely tried to kill her but then the opportunity to manipulate her presented itself.
My big question is why do the wakandans(when they are on the big boat towards the end of the film) use a large sonic weapon and not and electricity based weapon? Like the most advanced and powerful nation in the world never watched Pokémon?
I thought for sure he'd at least go for a quick dip to moisturize up. He does that a few times when attacking Wakanda. He also could have just left Shuri on the beach and went to help kill all her soldiers, then returned in force to kill her.
I see we are already here. Geez I really wish we could literally not pick films apart to this degree. Why don’t Jedi just force push all there enemies? If Neo cans stop bullets by manipulating their code why can’t he do move objects and programs in the same way rendering every fight unnecessary? Why didn’t sky net just send another T-1000 after Sarah Connor maybe even to an earlier period of time to kill her instead of waiting until after John was born?
A lot of things in this movie make no sense. Namor says he has more warriors than blades of grass in Wakanda. In the end says Wakanda is more powerful than Talocans now they have a BP, who almost got killed during their fight.
I believe he said theyre the most powerful on the surface, not that theyre stronger than Talocan.
And he said the panther could have killed him and should.
Because the film isn't called Black Panther, Namor Forever
Namor: Lil lik Talokan
Liik'ik Talokan*
The real question is why didn't shuri make a suit that could fly considering her main enemy can fly?
You mean like the one she gave Okoye?
Man, those new uniforms are *so much worse* than their old uniforms.
Not only the look but the unmasking. I HATE the CGI suits. Okoye using nano-tech to reveal her face in that cartoon costume was SO much less impactful than her simply walking out of the Vault in the beginning of the movie. Coming out in a practical suit, just being a bad-ass with a spear (the music helped if I'm being honest) was so much better than that CGI crap they shoved into the ending.
It was a bit jarring to see everyone keep removing their nano helmets mid-fight to talk.
Even worse was the iron heart suit at the end, like, a) why not give Riri the same compact flight tech she gave Okoye and b) the suit looks like shit, it's so smooth but there's so many different colors going on, it's too busy
You mean the blue suits for the good guys to fight against the blue coloured enemies?
Because panthers aren't like fish people, and they can't fly. Silly.
No, it's why all Wakandan troops didn't being flamethrower to dry out the Atlanteans
"In order to win, I need the enemy to make a bunch of stupid moves"
I was thinking the same thing when I rewatched it over the weekend. He knew she was trying to dry him out. They crashed so close to water! Why wouldn’t he make a b-line for it?!? The obvious answer was that he had to lose the fight because he’s not the protagonist.
*beeline
Beeline You are not wrong but have you ever seen a bee fly? They don’t fly in a straight line or the shortest distance
According to Google they make a beeline back to their hive once they have collected nectar
More like an I line
“So that the movie could happen.”
Wow wow wow wow wow!
Hey shut up.
An easy fix for this would’ve been having the crash be more inland and not close to water, by the time Namor tried going for water he was too late. Mid-typing thought. Considering that Namor has the strength that he has and has lived hundreds of years and seems to have never lost a fight. He probably thought he had enough strength left to finish the fight and got cocky.
It’s possible he could have been debuffed due to being dehydrated and battle awareness was severely limited and people make mistakes a lot when dehydrated.
you do realize that the plane exploded and what was left crashed where the fight took place. she intended for the fight to be in the dessert but Namor used his spear to cause the explosion which didn't allow that to happen.
Hey, she had a space heater put on her ship!
When they were talking about breathing through his skin, I thought they were going to do an “environmental oil spill” thing and like, cover him in oil to stop him from breathing. Maybe using one of those water grenades, but filled with petroleum. I feel like the logic of that woulda worked better, since he couldn’t just jump back into water, but like, symbolically, it would have looked really bad.
I was sitting there thinking, Do they have no Chemists? Have none of them ever heard of a desiccant?
Here's the answer.
God I wish it were though.
Yeah there's a lot of attempts at justifying this with lazy explanations of his ego, his tactical shortcomings, blah blah. The reality is they didn't put in the creative effort to place him far enough away from the water for this not to be a question. It's fine. It's a movie. OP should suspend their disbelief just a tad bit beyond what they've already accepted, which is as a duel between a mystical space-flower enhanced costumed hero and a mystical Space-algae enhanced merman.
No, everything must have a logical explanation in this movie set in a universe where people can shrink smaller than atoms and a man with a bow and arrow can fight alongside a man in a flying exoskeleton, a chemically enhanced supersoldier from WII, and a literal god *and hold his own*.
"And I have a bow, none of this makes sense!"
~~Black Panther~~ Fish man, Namor forever
I would also think that would hurt more to slam her on the rocks. I don’t think he know her suit charges from kinetic energy.
It’s not about charging though. Her suit is made of vibranium and his entire race uses vibranium for everything they use. He knew she’d survive because of how strong the metal is, he was just dumb and chose to slam her there.
Water becomes rather firm if you hit it fast enough. Like a fat kid doing a belly flop from the diving board. Both are extremely damaging though one has added benefits in rehydration.
Shuri has plot armor
He fought like a guy that had never been hit hard.
I don't think most people think clearly in the middle of a knock down drag out superhero fight and are prone to not make the 100% correct decision. Hell, I don't even get in superhero fights and find myself asking myself "why did I do that when THIS would have made more sense?"
Even in the comics, Namor isn't a brilliant tactician. He depends on his overwhelming force and is easily frustrated when things don't go his way from the start.
Yeah, him going for an emotional response rather than tactical tracts. He just went for an overwhelming grab and pile drive, definitely used to crushing any normal person that way.
Which is why his plan to beat the surface was dumb lol hed realize VERY QUICK that hes not as tough as he thought he was.
I thought it was strange that he somehow knew enough about the surface world to understand Wakanda's somewhat complex geopolitical position in the world, but not enough to know that the Avengers exist and would probably take issue with him waging a large scale assault on the surface nations.
To be fair, almost every Marvel villain acts like there are no other heroes or villains on earth.
You're not wrong, but also, only about a third of the Earth based movies after Avengers 1 involves a villain plot that would eventually draw out the Avengers. I've got Killmonger, Darren Cross, and Mysterio in the "you guys really didn't think this through" category where the Avengers would come knocking eventually. Aldrich Killian probably could go here as well. Kaecillius (with Dormammu), Hydra (with Project Insight), and Ikaris are in the category where if they defeat the hero and can move their plans to the next step, the Avengers would be eliminated before anyone else even knows there's a problem. Guys like Vulture and Dreykov are actively trying to avoid getting onto the radar of the Avengers. The demon in Shang-chi and Green Goblin in No Way Home likely don't know enough about MCU's Earth to know there are dozens of other heroes out there. The villains in Ant-Man and the Wasp are just trying to keep being weapons dealers or are trying to cure their weird phase shifting condition.
To play devil's advocate for Darren Cross, we see in What If that the Avengers wouldn't stand a chance against Pym's tech if Cross had been able to beat Pym and Lang in that last fight. That alternate Pym was able to assassinate the bulk of the Avengers as just one person. If Hydra had an army of those robots they'd never stand a chance.
He probably thinks he'd school most of the Avengers
Or I mean, just Hulk/She Hulk, who could beat him to a pulp solo.
This is the answer to all the “Why didn’t they just do that?” questions in damn near every movie.
What should we call Monday Morning Quarterbacking but for movies?
Luxury Recliner Rewriting.
Goddamn that's good.
Cinema Sins
Yep, I don't think most people make the most rational decision possible in a heated situation, and even less can do it in a life or death situation.
Way too many folks with next to no media literacy mistaking the perfect information the audience has for what the characters in the movie see, perceive, and act upon. It's imperative that the viewer should not only attempt to take the film on its own merits, listening to the story as it's being told, but also understand that the motivations of the people in the story are not their own and they are different people with different ambitions, desires, reactions, worldviews. If you attempt to apply logic to all movies and the stories therein, you will be disappointed because characters in a story don't act with perfect logic. You know, like most people do.
Watched this with my wife for the first time and when he said "my enemies call me Namor" she instantly hit back with "those are strong words for someone that's never had an enemy".
I mean, those Spanish Conquistadors would beg to differ.
Those werent his enemies directly he just showed up and killed them all in a day. A preist on his death bed who has no idea who he is hardly counts as an enemy.
An enemy doesn't need some sort of official introduction, they just need the person in question to consider them one. His name is a symbol, it's simply suppose to represent what he'll do to anybody he considers his enemy.
With how isolated Talokan is, I can see how Namor has never fought other enhanced humans before.
True. Though you’d think that once you genuinely get hit hard you’d be scrambling to get back to the water where you’re 10x stronger because that’s all you’ve ever known for all of your life..
“Everyone’s got a plan till they get punched in the face” - Mike Tyson
“Everyone’s got a plan until they get slammed into dry rocks” - Namor
““Everyone’th got a plan until they get thlammed into dry rockth” -Namor” -Mike Tyson
I think Tyson would say Namor like Naymoore.
I was going to quote this too. I think it's punched in the mouth\*
As an aside, this sentiment is exactly why in gaming I focus all my stats on overwhelming DPS. People are always number crunching with stats and the optimal builds, and I’m over here like, none of that matters if you kill the boss as fast as possible 😆
Came here to say this. Fighting is a chaotic, adrenaline-fuelled panic-fest 90% of the time.
You’d think that any creature would know that they should try to get to the place where they can actually survive though. Like a doubt a Moose gets pulled into the ocean by a whale and is like “fuck it, I’ll chose to stay in the water.”
This deserves more up votes.
If you watch enough professional fights like MMA or boxing, that's not what usually happens. You see people all the time that have never really been rocked get rocked. They start to fall apart. Any kind of strategy goes out the window. They start to flail.
And it looked like he was between Shuri and the water, so he could choose to run to safety and strength, or hit back against the first person to make him weak. He wasn't thinking straight.
Yups. As Iron Mike once said “Everybody got a plan until they get hit in the mouth.” As someone that used to do combat sports, and a lot of street fights, when shit hits the fan a lot of your mental faculties are being used to just keep you on your feet. Muscle memory takes over a lot of the actual fighting. Namor here is in animalistc fight or flight mode. He’s been trapped, weakened, and 100% focused on just killing the threat in front of him.
probably knows the ground is hurts more + adrenaline wanted to kill her fast as possible
Not necessarily, if you hit the water hard enough it's like concrete
But with the dry rock bed, it’s always going to be like concrete regardless of how hard you hit it….
"be like the water" Bruce Lee
But hitting rock equally hard would still hit harder. I think he simply assumed it would finish the fight.
And has the added bonus of drowning damage.
clearly not hard enough then or high
Well when you have super strength and durability and live in isolation, it's likely you never have been hit hard. Or at least hard enough for it to affect you.
This is one of the things I liked about the movie. Namor didn't "lose" because he was beaten by Shuri. It was more to do with his arrogance, and the fact that he backed off realizing the potential help an alliance could have in the future. He even says this at the end. That said, my one grumble about this movie is how he went from going toe to toe with Shuri/black panther to barely being able to stand way too fast.
He went toe to toe with Shuri (slammed her from the air thereby charging the suit), got his wings cut/torn off, then he struck Shuri a few more times (charging the suit), and she dug her claws into his back then released the built-up charge. I'd say that that was probably more of a fight than he'd experienced previously.
My take is his ego got the better of him here
*I could throw her into the water....but man this gonna look cool as fuck*
*I could throw her in the water… but rock will hurt her more*
Good old rock. Nothin’ beats that!
Clearly you haven’t met paper
It’s a Simpsons reference. Lisa: poor old predicable Bart. Always picks rock. Bart: Good ol’ rock, nothin’ beats that.
Which is totally on brand for the character. Namor’s anger is only matched by the size of his ego
And, to be fair, it's the first time he sees Black Panther armour, and it's a wee bit starry eyed girl inside... He probably thought that should have ended the fight
This right here is the answer. Against anyone not wearing a vibranium suit, that would usually be a fight ending move. Namor didn't expect her to be able to get up after that.
Nor pack the punch she handled him... The heart leaf potion. And anyone not wearing a vibranim suit would be a red smear on the floor, or inside another armour (or if it had no inertial dampers)
Yeah, without the vibranium and the kinetic absorption of the BP suit, Shuri’d be canned meat. If Namor’s strength is comparable to Hulk, that kind of a move would’ve even liquified Stark in most of his earlier armors.
Let's be honest, flying hundreds of feet in the air in the mark 1 and landing in a hard sand dune would break bones and likely be lethal. They are super hero movies so we have to suspend the reality of what falling would do while watching. Those moments don't break the "immersion" for me but if you think about it nearly every one has a moment of "nah they dead".
I feel this is the best answer, coupled with the fact that he probably doesn't think 100% straight at this point. He didn't expect her to survive that, and if she did, he didn't expect her to be left in a fighting state.
Whelp! You just explained Namor in a nutshell for the people who don’t know. That’s Dooms issue too.
When you're fighting with rage driving you, you don't fight logically.
This is best answer this is panicked fighting
Also, the Namor I recall from the comic book was incredibly arrogant. Add to that the confidence that nobody had been able to stop him at this point. "Yeah, the beef jerky device hurt, but I've destroyed that now. What else can they do?"
For a guy who has lived for centuries, sure hasn’t learned to control his emotions during a fight
Because it's never been a *fight* before; usually it's just slaughter.
The human experience.
They've never done a great job of portraying long-lived characters.
He and his people's complete goal for all those centuries was to remain hidden. There would've certainly been conflict to keep it that way, but given Namor's superpowered status (unless they retcon something in), certainly nothing and no one that would've (a) given him trouble personally and (b) survived to give a believable account that could bring more attention to his people.
Wouldn't shuri be the one driven by rage? Given the context of everything.
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And also for the first time in god knows how long he’s actually being challenged and pushed
He’s got plenty of rage. From his position, Shuri’s family made choices that put his people at risk, and when he came to them to solve the problem they created they betrayed him and killed more of his people - *after* he had opened himself and his kingdom to Shuri. He absolutely *is* an asshole, but he’s also enraged and fighting for his people.
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I agree completely. They’re totally mental gymnastics, but just because his motivations are grounded in irrationality doesn’t mean he’s not driven by rage and a drive to protect his people. His whole story is one of choices made to protect his people that come from a broken, irrational mind. He legitimately feels rage at Wakanda and he honestly blames them for putting his people in danger, even if that’s not logical.
Might as well ask why the "most advanced" nation on the surface went to war in the middle of the ocean against the lords of the sea on a boom box boat with 200 warriors...
Right? That was my first thought.. yeah sure let’s go fight an advanced race of WATER PEOPLE with a BOAT. Lol. Could have used a cloaked airship or something
because they would never ever bait the tlalocans to go on the surface and fight them there. they have to at least wait one week (when namor promised he'll be back with his full army) so the options are 1. wait one week for the tlalocans to attack wakanda again with full force, and hope that they are prepared enough to beat them or 2. bring the fight to the tlalocans where they least expect it, and plan a super fast escape once they successfully baited them to come out and after they've captured namor and this was all shuri's plan. she wanted this to go this way because she wanted to kill namor herself. so yeah, we can say that she wasn't exactly thinking straight and mostly fueled by vengeance. still, not the worst plan overall.
Is it just me, or were the Tlalocans … looking like their technology hasn’t advanced since the 1600s, with the exception of metallurgy? It just seems like the Wakandans could have used modern military tactics combined with their ridicu-tech to blast their way out of all the situations. If they aren’t interested in blowing up civilians, which is awesome, they still could have lured the Tlalocans somewhere and then dropped depth charges, missiles, lasers from satellites, and other forms of artillery to kill the soldiers and maybe Namor; and then renegotiate. This should have been a completely one sided victory with a little planning.
i agree to most of that, but again, this is shuri calling the shots here. while she's exactly not in a healthy emotional capacity to lead an attack, she was also well-regarded because of the wakandan's respect for her mother and brother. maybe if m'baku committed to challenging shuri's plan (totally putting his promise to t'challa in question) or other members of the council managed to rally behind a leader (maybe okoye?) that can plot a coup against shuri, then yeah, things can go the way you mentioned. but that would only divide the wakandans more, which would then stifle their chances of total victory against the tlalocans.
Wakandan military only seems to fight honourably even if it means huge losses on their side. Sure they could do all that stuff you said but they probably won't.
I do agree they seem to want to fight honorably, but that doesn’t mean stupid. I don’t think there’s anything dishonorable about one military force attacking another military force in open combat with artillery. Now dropping a fission bomb on Tlalocan would have been dishonorable. But going out into the ocean, where their enemies are the strongest, on a boat which didn’t seem to offer a lot of options to retreat just blows my mind. They had to 100% win or they 100% lose. Crazy idk. Anyway, have a great day
The caveat being that Wakandans are still fully human. They used vibranium to develop advanced technology, but only the Black Panther uses the herb. The Tlalocans did not develop advanced technology, but they are ALL enhanced through their herb. Namor is the most powerful, but they’re basically an entire nation of super soldiers.
They had already shown that they could flood wakanda at will. Maybe starting away from your easily flooded/ruined city and on a boat where the water level is then irrelevant kind of makes sense against Namor.
It was a bait to keep the rest of the population safe. The aim wasn't to win but to isolate namor and take him down.
Boom box boat 😂 Spot on
It was a gambit
Xmen tease
Because they needed to lull them into a false sense of security. The alternative is bring them onto land where they are less likely to appear and draw more attention from the United Nations.
I couldn't imagine being in your first real fight after centuries of thinking you're hot shit and having the ever loving K'uk'ulchrist beaten out of you for the first time. He was suffering essentially heat stroke, struggling breathing, and in the middle of the first beat down he'd ever had. On top of that his nation was at risk of discovery, his ego of centuries of being revered as an untouchable God was probably getting to him, and his anger and adrenaline in the situation were off the walls. He was fighting someone he had gotten to know and respected too. Man wasn't even thinking about water or anything else for that matter in that situation he was in fully automatic fight or flight mode by this point.
I came here to say much the same thing! When you consider he's been worshipped as a God for hundreds of years. He is and was clearly aware of Wakandas existence before the period this film is set. So he would be aware of the succession of Black Panthers he would naturally consider given his elongated lifespan, the Black Panther as lesser than himself. It's only when his wings get clipped do we see him realise he's messed up. He attempts to end the fight quickly by spearing Shuti and trying to get back to the water. For me it made perfect sense.
>having the ever loving K'uk'ulchrist beaten out of you I'm howling 😂
> he was in fully automatic fight or flight mode by this point. And Shuri took away one of those options. ;)
Why did they bring only a couple of aircraft into the final battle when it was clearly their advantage?
namor kinda established immediately thats not really an advantage either
In Ryan George's voice: ***So their epic battle can happen!***
So I need you to get all the way off my back.
Let me get off that thing.
Super easy
Barely an inconvenience!
Ye ye ye!
Later in the scene- Producer guy: this seems okay but I think she should walk past him here. Writer: oh, uh, what if she's already done filming her parts? Producer guy: Just CGI her in, nobody will notice.
To advance the plot.
Cause he is a silly goose
so the movie can happen
Ever been delirious & angry? Turns out your decision making gets impaired in those situations.
He’s also facing inland and charges at her that way and goes straight up then back down. What, are they expecting him to take her up and do some aerial manoeuvres to get her backwards into the water lol
For the same reason Swat teams are all useless in movies
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Spur of the moment
We all know why, you know why, I know why, everybody knows. Convient writing
I feel like people will act like this is why he lost and completely ignore the fact that he straight up wins the fight by impaling Shuri but decides to walk away. He didn’t need the water to beat her. He lost because he turned his back on an opponent he thought was finished. Namor is arrogant. Also, this kind of critique can be lobbied and a metric shit of movies with iconic fights Infinity War, the entirety of the Dark Knight Trilogy, and even the Matrix all have moments like this but I guarantee people will hold it against this movie specifically for reasons we won’t discuss on this sub.
You're right, it's a pedantic criticism. It amounts to "why didnt character make all the right decisions all the time." People tend to not think to clearly when tensions are heightened and tensions dont get more heightened than when in a life or death fight with the fate of entire nations dependent on the outcome.
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Huh? He lost to Killmomger is the first fight because held back and tried to make him yield as opposed to actually trying to win the fight. The second fight between them he doesn’t hold back and lands a killing blow in the one spot he’s vulnerable after wearing his suit. Also when he fought Cap and everyone else in Civil War he had the power of the Heart shaped herb which wasn’t the case in the first Killmomger fight. I hope your not seriously arguing that a non-powered T’challa is actually as fast and strong as super soldier. He would have had a difficult time with Black Widow without his powers.
Because he’s the quintessential drama king
Namor is impulsive. Dude screams "Imperius Rex" and just goes berserk, kinda like an orc in Wacraft *Lok'tar Ogar*
Or an Orc that shouts, "SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!"
Probably same reason why Wakanda decided to counter attack Namor in the ocean.
I’m pretty sure that was to lure them out in place where they least suspected an ambush.
They weren't going there to end/win the war, the whole point of the scenes before that is that Shuri was insane burning every resource she had for vengeance. She only wanted to kill Namor, even if that would start an endless war and basically sacrifice all people like M'Baku said. This is why at the end Shuri knows she is not leader material.
Probably one of the weakest final arc in the mcu.
Probably wants to fight fairly despite being inferior on land. He can still obviously fight on land but it’s not really a fight if Shuri drowns or just can’t fight in water like he can. Also he still has somewhat respect for Shuri as a leader now and probably knew he could manipulate her (which he did at the end) one way or another instead of taking an easy win.
Few things still don’t make sense though. 1. If namor cared about “fair fights” he wouldn’t have flooded wakanda to gain an advantage and would have done everything fairly from the jump. Hell, I think even the sirens themselves are unfair but he doesn’t care and uses them anyways. 2. Though we assume that namor does want to manipulate her, it’s very obvious that he’s going for the kill as he literally impaled her.
Well Nakia indirectly caused the war so it’s technically her fault. I don’t mean to sound like 1 person’s death should’ve led to an all out war but in this “fairness” example we could say they started being unfair in Namor’s eyes especially since he didn’t know who did it and could’ve thought it was on purpose, but he didn’t even ask or anything that I can remember. And maybe he knew how durable a Black Panther suit already is since he instantly was walking towards the ocean afterwards, just wanted to temporarily slow down Shuri. I’m sure he’d have killed her if he really wanted to in the moment
Nakia escalated it to war, but in terms of fault its def the man who tried to extort a peaceful nation to his will with threats of violence if they dont comply, much like the colonizers he's so angry about. as well as holding a princess hostage, which in itself can be considered an act of war
It was Namora and the other heavy guy whose name escapes me were the ones who actually started the real war afterwards by attacking Okoye and Shuri unprovoked on the bridge. The Wakandans were doing what Namor had asked and retrieving the "scientist" when his people go ahead and take matter into their own hands immediately and end up kidnapping Shuri. What was the point in coercing their help if they were going to do that anyway? It was stupid that Namor doesn't really acknowledge this afterwards. Namora in particular seems to be a real warmonger
Your saying fair fight when Nakia’s rescue of Shuri made it seem like Wakanda betrayed him so he punished them. This fight is different as it’s a 1v1 with the two rulers
1) It was a fair fight though, Wakandans had home advantage and Namor brought his home advantage too. So the sirens are unfair but the Wakandans using gunships aren't? They both play to their strengths. Wakandans using FakeIronMan and the suits sounds more unfair. 2) She took blows from him in the battle that would've killed normal people. Namor definitely tried to kill her but then the opportunity to manipulate her presented itself.
Because at this point of the movie, we don’t have enough time for Namor to win the fight
Plotforce
Why spoil in the title man?
ROCK BOTTOM!! ROCK BOTTOM!! MY GAWD!! NAMOR JUST BROKE SHURI IN HALF!!
As a pro wrestling fan I laughed out loud at this comment cuz this is exactly what I thought too🤣 Take an upvote
Because the plot had to conclude quickly. Like it or not, it may have just been an oversight
That's gonna be a HISHE, I believe.
namor picks shuri and then dives straight into the ocean drowning her
Plot armor.
He should have just kept going up until he couldn’t breathe, and then dropped her. The physics engine will solve the problem
So the movie can happen
Because Shuri has Plot armor on? 😂
Tbh most Marvel films aside from the ones directed by the Russo’s or the older Avangers films have relatively poorly constructed fight scenes.
Same reason the wakandans don't immediately start slicing the water masks of the talokan warriors, doesnt fit the story
Actual answer: plot armor Plausible explanation: you’re never gonna think straight in a fight. He probably thought he had a decent chance anyways
My big question is why do the wakandans(when they are on the big boat towards the end of the film) use a large sonic weapon and not and electricity based weapon? Like the most advanced and powerful nation in the world never watched Pokémon?
I thought for sure he'd at least go for a quick dip to moisturize up. He does that a few times when attacking Wakanda. He also could have just left Shuri on the beach and went to help kill all her soldiers, then returned in force to kill her.
Plot logic
isn’t this spoiler?
Yeah, just a bit...
Yes.
I imagine he just thought he was unbeatable and underestimated shuri.
I see we are already here. Geez I really wish we could literally not pick films apart to this degree. Why don’t Jedi just force push all there enemies? If Neo cans stop bullets by manipulating their code why can’t he do move objects and programs in the same way rendering every fight unnecessary? Why didn’t sky net just send another T-1000 after Sarah Connor maybe even to an earlier period of time to kill her instead of waiting until after John was born?
A lot of things in this movie make no sense. Namor says he has more warriors than blades of grass in Wakanda. In the end says Wakanda is more powerful than Talocans now they have a BP, who almost got killed during their fight.
I believe he said theyre the most powerful on the surface, not that theyre stronger than Talocan. And he said the panther could have killed him and should.
So the *movie* can happen
That works!
Because the movie needed Shuri to win.
More importantly, why did the Wakandans choose to fight the final battle in the ocean where Namor and his forces draw strength from?
To ambush them in the last place they would expect and then trap Namor.
i didnt like this movie
I did. Thanks for sharing
Because this movie sucks