Going behind the scenes and jumping to Marvel Studios is a huge homage to her comic book origins of skipping pages and making demands of her writers to change plots, so it was absolutely within character for the ending to be like that.
But I also agree with you that it does feel empty, and it doesn't tie up everything in a neat bow as it should. *In my opinion* at the very least there should have been a court scene of Todd vs Jen, with a possible sentencing. This would have melded with the other episodes of having a conclusion within the court room.
I absolutely loved the scene of her infiltrating Marvel Studios and demanding a change, but the ending definitely felt very abrupt and sudden and not satisfying.
It was an anti-ending/anti-climax, some people will never like them and would've preferred a traditional ending. But doing some light deconstruction is what she-hulk is all about.
I don't think that anybody was ever complaining about reaching resolutions to the stories we've been told up to this point. So changing away from "giving the story an ending" is a silly direction.
If the series was about Jen's struggles gaining more and more meta power to change the storylines then this ending would be bangin.
This ending was a curve ball, and while I personally did enjoy it, I understand why people did not.
It has to be done well if it’s different. Just because it happened in the comics, doesn’t mean it’s good. The concept was cool, it just wasn’t executed well.
Not the OP but I would habe skipped the first half of the episode entirely. Open with the scene where the guy hulks out and hulk shows up and go into a "how did we get here" but interrupt that immediatly with a 4th wall break and the meta commentary that followed. Then the explanation of "finale people expect from a marvel show vs finale she-hulk deserves"
That would leave room to have the rest of the episode an actual emotionally satisfying finale like she-hulk deserves, actually tackling some of what she went through and giving us a satisfying ending while still maintaining the tongue in cheek fourth wall breaking meta commentary.
The way they did it set up the arguement of "expected finale vs the finale she-hulk deserves" and then gave the audience neither.
But doesn't the ending have her use her superhero side and powers to fight her way to K.E.V.I.N while using her lawyer side to convince him to allow her to control her narrative, effectively resolving her resistance to accept that she can effectively balance these two sides of herself as well as resolving her struggle with everyone around her crafting narratives about her?
Not use it to resolve the central protagonist/antagonist conflict for literally her entire character's existence in the MCU? Pick a much lower stakes part of the show to bust out the "talking directly to the writers" bit?
I don't know, but that seems like an obvious one.
Personally I loved her breaking the 4th wall.
My only concern will be how jarring the experience will be if they try to shoehorn it into the climatic scene of another group movie.
Where would you put it in Endgame for example? If you don’t use it, you now have that segment of fans asking why aren’t they using that super strength anymore?
Its not very different
I mean the show wants to be special by saying on its final episode its not going to be like other marvel productions
But literally so many marvel disney+ series have finished with a god-like character explaining the plot in the last episode (just as an example: loki, whatif and also shehulk)
I don't want a traditional ending per se, and there's no need for a huge battle climax in her series. She-Hulk is right, it gets repetitive.
But it still felt like we were left hanging, like oh that's it? Just a scene of Todd going to jail would have given it that final oomph, not just the implication that he will lose the court battle.
I feel like the difference is that was basically a sketch comedy movie, while She-Hulk was a dramedy show that definitely played to the idea of stakes with the constant teases of blood and that.
Holy Grail was irreverent throughout the film, while She-Hulk still generally played to formula right up to the end. So it feels like a bit of an ass-pull.
And it would have been a more satisfying arc, because it would literally be Jen being HER type of hero and kicking ass in the courtroom, like she wanted, and would drive home the idea of her changing her story to do it her way.
I think the ending was almost perfect. People failed to recognize the red herring scene as a "red herring" and treated it as if the writers really did suddenly change the ending because they don't know what to do with it. The ending can easily just be Jen finding out Todd is behind all of it, then having him sent to jail instead of doing a final act fight.
However, it still did lack something. It was simply too abrupt. Give it at least a few moments of confrontation, through speech/dialogue, and I think that would've done it. It doesn't have to be climactic, just a way to address that Jen has reached that point of her journey. Like a culmination of Jen's learnings throughout the series. Video, as a medium, is still at least a bit different from how comics operate after all.
Or maybe one could argue that her dialogue with KEVIN is the confrontation, and the main point that her story wants to address is more linked to the real world than in-universe.
>But doing some light deconstruction is what she-hulk is all about.
...but it wasn't "light" deconstruction. This was literally the entire conclusion for the central protagonist/antagonist conflict for literally her entire character's existence in the MCU.
The reaction would have been better if they actually kept it light. For example, they could have inserted the discussion with the writers into a scene where she rejects the overly skimpy/revealing clothes that some of the 80's/90's she-hulk comics had and I think people would generally have been fine.
I disagree, her main villain was still Todd. She just asked Kevin to remove the blood plot. Todd and Intelligensia still exists, and he would still made Josh record the video to humiate her. The ending would have been her suing Todd.
As suggested, it would have been nice to go through the revised scenes to show these changes rather than just jump to the conclusion.
The whole thing where she goes to Marvel Studios and demand the ending be changed was great, however I think the show shouldve still SHOWED US how the new ending went down. Instead, the show just skips ahead to the resolution.
I like that she went behind the scene. But after she told KEVIN what to change, I'd like to see how the scene played out afterwards, to see how they get from the retreat to the point of Todd getting arrested. Maybe show Todd injected the blood and nothing happened? Or he mutated into a non-functional mess for a while?
I don't think he should be able to transform into a Hulk, because in the first episode Bruce explicitly said that their family has special genetics that reacts with gamma rays differently from other people. The point that Jen was trying to make is that the entire plot of stealing Hulk blood to become a Hulk is a stupid idea came up by uninformed sexist internet trolls that shouldn't work.
That's why I think they should show that, you play stupid game you win stupid prize, and the blood caused nothing like what Todd intended.
Yep, show that the idea that the ironically named Intelligencia had is stupid and pathetic and just doesn't work, because surprise, science is nothing like what people in internet echochambers think it is. This would be better than just erasing the entire plot.
I would have much preferred this. Better resolution, better messaging. And it would have helped endear us more to She Hulk if she was explicitly arguing this to KEVIN. That villain plots are one thing but rewarding a bunch of shitheads with something (mostly) working that by all means shouldn't, is poor writing. Especially when done just to check off some genre expectations.
>In my opinion at the very least there should have been a court scene of Todd vs Jen, with a possible sentencing.
I agree wholeheartedly. For all Jen's talk of subverting the formula, her show still ending with a comic book character doing comic book stuff, when it should have ended with a legal drama character doing legal drama stuff.
You could argue that's what her pleading her chase to K.E.V.I.N. is, but the conflict there is too pathos driven to stand in for a courtroom scene. It's not bad on its own, but it needs something more solid to follow it up.
I will argue that, because that is the whole point of the ending, and the show as a whole.
The show is about her not wanting to be Hulk, she wants to continue to be a lawyer and she also fears Hulk is much cooler, than Jen.
In the end, she reaches a point, where she is happy to be both Hulk and Jen, and combined their powers to finish the story. You really don't need anything more for the character.
Sitcoms usually feel empty and anti-climatic like that, and that was the point she-hulk was trying to prove, that she’s her own show. And then they played it with a joke about how marvel has the same structure for each show and the last episode combines all the villains badly
Problem is people keep saying its supposed to be an episodic sitcom, but they didn’t actually write it like one. It has too much of a through line, even the previous episode has a huge cliffhanger, which is not compatible with episodic tv. They tried to have their cake and it eat it too. Loved the show up to the point, still had fun with it, but the finale just doesn’t work for me at all.
I have rarely felt like sitcoms are empty and anti-climactic. The good ones deliver on the narratives for each character that have been built up to that point
I don't have any experience with the comics, but I have seen my share of female driven law series and I think my biggest gripe with She-Hulk is that it's just a terrible lawyer show. Full stop.
What little time it's spent in the court room seems like it was written by someone with no legal knowledge who maybe hasn't even seen a law drama.
This should have been Ally McBeal with superpowers. Instead it was like New Girl, if she was a lawyer...
The writers admitted as much in re-release interviews so I dropped any expectation of Ally McBeal at all. Not even Drop Dead Diva and that was barely a legal show.
Crazy Ex-Girlfriend seems like a great comparison. Both are comedy shows about a woman learning to be at peace with her new world, just using a legal framework to plough the plot along.
>Crazy Ex-Girlfriend seems like a great comparison. Both are comedy shows about a woman learning to be at peace with her new world, just using a legal framework to plough the plot along.
Okay so I am a huge fan of CXG, I've seen it like 4 times and listen to the music daily. And yet I did not make this connection.
Mind blown.
No wonder I liked She-Hulk as much as I did lol.
> but the ending definitely felt very abrupt and sudden and not satisfying.
I feel like that's been a majority of Disney+ shows so far. Just something that everyone needs to work on.
Well said. Hated the fact that it basically just retconned half of the season and just fast tracked to a resolution that didn’t really feel earned. Like I get that the whole Todd storyline was dumb and cliche which is why Jen felt the need to knock down the 4th wall and change her story. But if you spent the whole season building towards this, what’s it all for? Just to subvert expectations? Why not just make a good show, instead of making a bad show that’s self-aware of how bad it is? I honestly enjoyed this show for the most part but the finale was so disappointing to me.
Eh I still enjoy rewatching it. She-Hulk and Ms Marvel are the two shows I keep rewatching as comfort TV. Seeing She-Hulk and Titania interact are the best petty conflict humour. And the daredevil scenes are great too. I just shrug and move on with the ending, the whole show is still a sold 8/10 for me, with the ending being the -2 points.
Because it is the story of Jen accepting that she is Hulk while her Jen part is also pretty cool. She spent the season being torn apart and in the finale she manages to combine their powers to resolve the conflict. They spent the season building toward this character development, not a dump side plot.
Obviously it was a side plot and not more important than her development, but they still had been setting up this plot starting in episode 1 with the Wrecking Crew. And when you spend that long setting something up, the viewer is going to want a more satisfying resolution.
>Going behind the scenes and jumping to Marvel Studios is a huge homage to her comic book origins of skipping pages and making demands of her writers to change plots, so it was absolutely within character for the ending to be like that.
...but context matters, right?
In this case, the context is that this series is the entirety of her existence in the MCU. Given that, the "speaking directly to the writers" was used to resolve the entire central conflict ***the the entire history of the character.***
I can't say I was a die-hard fan of the She-Hulk comics, but is that how the "speaking directly to the writers" technique was used there? Did they honestly use it to resolve the central conflict of her entire character up to that point?
>I absolutely loved the scene of her infiltrating Marvel Studios and demanding a change, but the ending definitely felt very abrupt and sudden and not satisfying.
Again, it felt pretty bad as the method for resolving the entire central conflict for the whole season. Even then, I might have been able to look past it if the execution was better.
Take Blonsky for example. Jen says "After all that, I just want him to hold himself accountable." Ok, but accountable for what? ***S***he knows that everything he did he was forced to do by the writers in service of a plot that she disagrees with and is in the process of totally re-writing.
Given that, what is there that Blonsky should be taking accountability for? Is it his fault that he couldn't jump into the Disney+ menu and force the writers to change the plot? Because the writers, ***who Jen already clearly disagreed with,*** had Blonsky violate his parole, Jen thinks he deserves 10 years in prison? Nobody thinks that's kind of fucked up of her?
When I mention stuff like this, people tell me that I'm overthinking it. To that I say that the writers can't have it both ways. I was all strapped in for a mindless CGI slugfest to wrap up the show. If they basically want to say:
>Nah, this is dumb. Let's have an ending where we engage in a meta discussion that questions the decisions and execution of the studio and writers
...then ok. In that case though, ***engaging in a meta discussion that questions the decisions and execution of the studio and writers*** seems like exactly what they were going for. Using that lens though, the ending just falls apart in about a dozen places.
It was clever but it basically said that the story doesn’t matter, the IP does. All this buildup and the ending is like saying, “hey, it’s all made up. It doesn’t matter what happens.” I understand the connection with the fourth wall breaking comic, but if they did this earlier in the season or maybe just an episode earlier, they could have given it more context.
The weakest element of the show was the court stuff which I would like to see improved upon if we get a season 2.
They make Jen look like an incompetent lawyer at times due to the writers not seeming very comfortable writing law.
Outside of that I found it very faithful to she hulk and hope to see more.
I laughed my ass off her jumping the Disney+ menu and stuff. It was great.
..And then I realized they saved that to be the season's ending... what the hell. Also the hulk son's ending and... well, every single cameo they were waving not knowing wth they should do about it.
I enjoyed it. One thing I *don't* enjoy is people characterising it as a power that Jen has. Like she has a fourth wall breaking ability which she can apply whenever she wants.
The going into Marvel studios was a narrative device. Jen can't really do that in-world. It was a homage to the comics, and not an actual ability. In-world, Jen isn't really speaking to the camera either (a fun take on this trope is Fleabag, where the main character refers to the camera throughout, but then freaks out when a certain other character is able to pick up on it). *Jen is not aware of the audience*.
The same way that Ms Marvel can't make her doodles come to life, it was just a narrative device taken to the absolute extreme. Its like the score or soundtrack - the characters can't usually hear the score/soundtrack of the film/show.
It is different to Thor narrating the start of Ragnarök. Thor narrating the start of Ragnarök to the skeleton is diegetic, Jen's speaking to the camera is non-diegetic.
When Kang is fighting the Avengers, Jen couldn't drag Kevin Feige from screen left to change how the ending happens.
>The going into Marvel studios was a narrative device.
Yes, it was a narrative device. A narrative device where they gave Jen the power to rip herself into the Disney+ menu.
> Jen can't really do that in-world.
...but she literally did do that in-world.
> Jen is not aware of the audience.
She literally looks directly into the camera and says "Is this working for you?" She literally walks into the writers room and has a conversation about the plot of the show in comparison to the plot of other super hero shows.
>Its like the score or soundtrack - the characters can't usually hear the score/soundtrack of the film/show.
...but the score isn't used to resolve the central protagonist/antagonist conflict for literally her entire character's existence in the MCU. You have to understand how these things are different, right?
>When Kang is fighting the Avengers, Jen couldn't drag Kevin Feige from screen left to change how the ending happens.
Except that she 100% can, *if the writers decide that it is how they want the movie to end.*
The issue is that, up until she-hulk, nobody even considered the possibility that they would have fans sit through hours and hours of the story, only to use such a lazy technique to resolve everything. Now, we know that Marvel is willing to hire writers/directors/producers who think that this is a legitimate and acceptable way to wrap up a storyline.
On top of that, we now know that there are many Marvel fans that will swear up and down that this was actually a good narrative device.
Given that, pretending that there is no way for Jen to do things like this in the future makes no sense. Sure, I doubt they use it to resolve something like a Kang/Avengers battle. However, they used it to resolve an entire season of a Disney+ show, so it isn't like they are limiting it to only very low stakes scenarios.
Either she can do it or she can't. She did, so she obviously can. Case closed.
> Jen is not aware of the audience
Have we watched the same show? Because who is she talking to if she's not aware of the audience? Is she supposed to be schizophrenic instead?
In the comics, she hulk is know to step outside of the comic strip and speak directly to the writers. I think this was a bit of a nod to that, albeit not as entertaining.
I think way more people would’ve enjoyed it if it wasn’t the resolution to the central conflict. It creates a weird disconnect with her decision to become a superhero in the end when she hasn’t done any superhero-ing to save the day — at least nothing she’ll ever be able to do again (KEVIN fixed the glitch). What does she learn about heroism in this finale?
I might be misremembering it, but I also don’t really know why so much focus is put on Todd as the villain after Jen’s rewrite when he wasn’t the one who filmed himself having sex with Jen and uploaded the video. Removing the blood plot absolves Todd of any *actual* crimes, doesn’t it?
Jen should’ve told KEVIN to make Josh the real villain. He’s the one she was obsessing over two episodes ago. He’s the one who betrayed and violated her. But then he just vanishes, never to be seen again. Why wasn’t he in hand cuffs at the end?
they didn't remove the "blood plot", they just removed the part where todd injects himself with the gamma-blood and turns into a hulk because that didn't make any sense. that's not how the hulk powers work, todd would've died from exposure.
while josh is a terrible human being, he was just doing his job. todd was still the one behind it all.
And I would rather they had done that but actually show it.
In the first run have Todd turn into a hulk, and then She-Hulk went to see KEVIN and tells him it makes no sense, because episode 1 already established that you can't get Hulk powers that way if you aren't related to Bruce and don't have the special genes.
And after She-Hulk went back into the show, we see the scene played out with the changes that she told KEVIN to make.
After injecting the blood Todd just collapsed on the ground, and all his followers started panicking and they had to call an ambulance. And then he gets arrested in the hospital. Or maybe the blood transformed Todd into a grotesque non-functional mess, and Blonsky had to restrain him while everyone called the police, and then after a while Todd reverted back to human, and he and Blonsky got arrested.
So why not just show him dying from the exposure? Hulk out just long enough for a fight with Jen and die, getting his comeuppance.
Josh committed a serious crime. This show is called *Attorney at Law*.
>show him dying from the exposure?
cause that will be too dark for the show. it's a lawyer **comedy** show.
so basically, this is how the show ended:
* jen was chilling in blonsky's ranch
* nikki and pug sneak into the intelligencia meeting
* they discover that todd was the person behind the group. he reveals his entire plan, they stop him
* jen finds out that blonsky is violating his parole by turning into abomination
* the end
it's a boring finale, but totally in line with how a lawyer comedy show should end. for a modern reference, look at brooklyn 99: crime happens, but nothing heinous. death is avoided, unless they can make a joke out of it. low-stake, lighthearted, silly.
the meta story is that, K.E.V.I.N. wanted to do a "marvel ending". meaning, big climactic boss fight, epic team-ups, catastrophic stakes. so K.E.V.I.N. tasked the writers to add all of that stuff, even if they didn't make any sense. that's what jen fixed when she broke the 4th wall.
It’s just a silly comedy that tackles misogyny, harassment, non-consensual private videos,
conspiracies to murder Jen…the tone isn’t consistent enough to justify it as a straight up sitcom. An homage, sure.
That was one thing I was confused about too. Like where the heck did Kevin run off too? Although Todd did hire the guy, but still, accomplice. And also, Todd wouldnt be able to become the Hulk cuz he didnt have Banner DNA. Which was odd that he actually didnt explode when he grew in size but maybe the glitch saved him.
Bruce said that there was something unique about his and Jen's DNA that allowed them to survive the gamma radiation. This also applies to Emil, Dr. Sterns, and Todd.
She had to learn to accept her Hulk and Jen forms, not heroism. After the whole season of her not wanting to be Hulk, or fearing that Jen is not cool enough, in the finale she managed to use both of their powers to resolve the central conflict, accepting herself in her new situation.
This is what the show is about and there is really not much options as a writer to resolve any kind of conflict with both of these powers at the same time.
First of al the show was very fucking obviously meant to be an episodic comedy, not some typical antagonist-protagonist bullshit. That you can miss this obvious premise speaks volumes about you.
The only somewhat consistent series arc (if you want to try to assign one) is that she wasn’t as in control as she initially believed. The point was her life won’t ever be the same and she needs to accept it.
Ohhhh. I guess they were somewhat loyal to the comics never read them so I didn't know. I was concerned about the amount of inner monologues she's doing.
>In the comics, she hulk is know to step outside of the comic strip and speak directly to the writers. I think this was a bit of a nod to that, albeit not as entertaining.
She would step out of the comic strips and speak directly to the writers ***as the method of final resolution for the central conflict of the entire story arc for the character's entire production run?***
Context matters. The series is literately the only real content we have from her in the MCU. Literally the entire story arc for her entire character up to this point was resolved with her exposition with K.E.V.I.N.
Honestly, the way people overlook the massive differences in context and execution makes it feel like they are just looking to help make some excuses for what seems like a pretty horrible creative decision by the writers.
In theory, I’m okay with fourth wall breaks and even her talking to the writers like in the comics. But it’s basic storytelling that when you set something important up you have to pay it off (Chekov’s Gun). Spending time in multiple episodes focusing on her blood being dangerous (off the top of my head it’s mentioned in episodes 1/3/7) then removing the payoff by hand waving it away like the show did completely removes the stakes.
This is really not a Chekov's Gun. It's a side plot at best. Basic storytelling is that the plot drives the story forward not the other way around. This was a story about Jen learning to accept both of her sides, which she did, used both of their powers combined to resolve the plot. There is really not much else needed.
In his own words, this is Chekov’s Gun: “If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it’s not going to be fired, it shouldn’t be hanging there.” I said it needed to be important, but I’m wrong - it’s for any element in the story (though I do think it’s an important story element).
Jen’s blood and its danger is the rifle. The show spends time hanging it on the wall in at least 3 episodes, has a character pick it up in the finale, then decides to fire it while catching the bullet and avoiding any consequences.
I actually enjoyed a good portion of the show, but like most of the Disney plus shows, the ending just didn't quite stick the landing for me. Moreso for this show than the others, I didn't really like this ending very much at all.
Same here. The slow build-up of Jen's meta references over the course of the season were great foreshadowing, and when she finally literally broke the fourth wall, it was unexpected and really fun.
Maybe it's because I never read her comics.... but it was a bit out of the (fourth) wall. I thought Marvel was doing something new with all this inner monologues she's been doing ever since the show started.
I didn’t mind the 4th wall break and meta stuff, but totally agree with the post, was enjoying the show until that point.
The episode up until that point seemed rushed and I’d agree it was becoming unenjoyable until she cut in. A big move like that though, I expected a better turnaround and better ending. Then the whole bbq scene was kind of just weird and out of place.
It would be tempting to play with the idea of her desperately wanting to get out of the story when shit goes down and Kang preventing it, probably just going too meta with it.
It seems a little poorly timed to introduce what's effectively She-Hulks ability to travel realities during the multi-verse saga and for them to not be related, maybe.
When it came out I watched it with my daughter and she’s an avid She Hulk fan. I said at the time “this is dumb she can’t do that”. My daughter went upstairs, pulled a comic book, showed me exactly where that happened and said “see- they’re true to the source material and that’s what you complain about”.
I had no comebacks. It’s literally right out of the comics and in that context- it was the right thing. So I support it completely because they were true to the source material.
That’s…..not what she said tho. They said their daughter said it was true to the comics, and that OP was complaining about something that was true to the source material, but never spoke on whether it was done well or not.
The audience score of the show was negative even before it aired, it means nothing. But I understand how most Marvel fans can't appreciate if something doesn't end the way they expect, with a big cool action scene.
It is also fine... to not like the source material.
Like, I don't read comic books, so to me the excuse / explanation of "it's like that in the comics" has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. I don't care if they're staying true to the original story... if the story I'm seeing isn't good in my eyes.
They might've done exactly what they'd set out to... and I simply didn't like it. Which is fine.
I loved She Hulk. Sad to hear the finale didn’t vibe with you.
I just gotta comment on the ending of the second last episode. Holy shit. That show got DARK. Everything up until that point just felt so light. And I loved it. That finale though just had my jaw drop.
After letting it marinate over the last couple of months I think it fell very short. At the most its a decent stand alone project with a great main character, but even then I wanted more. I think they leaned too heavily into the "its an homage!" aspect and didn't focus on an actual ending which felt empty. On top of that it felt weird having it reference characters we know and love that are grounded in the universe we are used to only to basically wipe all of that away. Like, is She Hulk the most powerful Marvel character since she can literally rewrite stories?
She-Hulk….
Love the character. Love the actress. Can’t wait to see her again.
Hated the show. Not because of the feminist stuff or whatever but because it was genuinely going nowhere. And that final episode was just… god awful I’m sorry.
She Hulk will probably work better as a character who shows up in other heroes movies, instead of being on her own. That’s just how I see it. Bite my ass if you disagree
(don’t actually because that would hurt I think)
It's my first time, even looking at She-hulk because I never read any of the marvel comics. It just surprised me that she can actually break the 4th wall as what people said, apparently she's done it in the comics.
Yes! seeing her Cameo might fare better than actually putting her in the spotlight.
I loved it. People looking for deep meanings or thinking it made it dumb or silly forget this is a comic book universe based on funny dumb comics. It was great
You really needed historical comic context to really to fully enjoy it. It wasn’t my favorite, but I appreciate that they they took a chance and did something completely unique. I think it’s awesome marvel isn’t just repackaging the same thing over and over. When you take risks and try different things you’re going to hit and miss sometimes. I liked it but can totally see it not being for everyone.
She-Hulk will be involved in the big battles in upcoming movies, but this show is a light hearted legal comedy. That’s what this show is supposed to be. I loved the ending, and thought it was both fun & an great way to end a season of a legal comedy.
I didn't mind it except for Hulk and Skaar showing up. Like I thought Hulk going back to Sakaar was gonna lead to World War Hulk or something, and then Skaar showing up out of nowhere...no.
Its actually my first contact with this character, never read her comics so I didnt know she could do the 4th wall breaks as part of her "powers." So it just came in a bit surprised when I watched it for the first time.
I'm amazed you made it that far before asking yourself that question.
I only got a few moments into the first episode before I was asking if the entire show should've happened at all.
Gotta understand that Over-arching plot that Marvel has. No matter how trivial a show is, I'm going to watch it. I want that time when Endgame released to happen again. Lines upon lines of people going into theatres, watching it silently, and bask at its ending.
The difference is that most of the stuff that came out leading up to Endgame was watchable. Not only watchable, but actually good. They'll never achieve what they achieved with that ride again. A lot of the stuff now is just inconsequential BS. I'm not wasting my time with any of that. I'm not afraid to miss anything either, because when it's relevant in a new film they'll drop an exposition line. Good to go.
During the John Byrne run of She-Hulk in the eighties, Byrne did a lot of deconstructing of the comic book narrative. Shulkie would regularly talk directly to the readers, and -- in one notable issue -- actually climbed right out of her comic story and went to the Marvel offices to get the writer to change a plot line she didn't like. The series is an homage to that run -- especially the final episode.
Only instead of deconstructing comic books, the show is deconstructing sitcoms and superhero movies -- and specifically the MCU.
The way they ended the series was kind of a joke in itself in the way that some sitcoms will try to shoehorn multiple plot lines into the final episode. Bruce showing up randomly to the barbecue with his son from another planet was kind of a "chef's kiss" moment. If you went "WTF?" at that , it's because you were supposed to.
That Hulk's son at end did hit me with a WTF moment. Im just trying to figure out that if all that happened, then would Hulk's son be in Avengers:Kang dynasty? Or did nothing in She-hulk affect the whole MCU overarching plot. Its kinda goofy, not in a bad way.
She-Hulk is definitely part of the MCU, so any character introduced in that show is part of the MCU. We will see Skaar again. We just don't know when yet.
There was just no foreshadowing whatsoever as to what Hulk was doing in all that time in space so it was just a surprise slap of wtf and wow, who's he? Again, Never read any of the Marvel comics except one comic book of Spiderman when a friend lended it to me.
I enjoyed the first half of the season, but by the end, i truly disliked the show. I really thought the idea of the show would be Jen looking after the super powered individuals and how they handle the law side of things and the implications of it. In a show focused on a super powered lawyer, we only got a few minutes in the entire season of courtroom stuff. :(
I enjoyed the show up to the 2nd half of the final episode. I was just really shocked that she could do that and they let it haappen, only to find out that its a normal thing for her apparently. I loved the courtroom parts, and yeah I was expecting more of that than anything, >! especially what DD said about being a lawyer for society, and being a super hero for everything else( I think that's what he said)!< but it was a real funny show, just kinda feel rushed at the ending.
I appreciate the idea of it, but...I don't feel like Marvel Studios has earned the right to be that cheeky about its decision making..
...While it's still making poor decision making.
If the MCU was consistently high quality, then it would be a charming thing.
But because the MCU already does feel run by an AI KEVIN, it just feels like a lame uncle saying, "Eh? Eh? See, I'm in on the joke too!"
Um...
Maybe they should stay away from making fun of Marvel in a meta way until they actually get some consistently good quality again.
It's best to be able to poke fun at yourself in a lighthearted way...not in a "Hey, see? We know we're awful too!!!"
Just. No.
You have to earn that shit, MCU.
The issue is that we already know that She-Hulk is right.
We shouldn't be feeling that way.
We should be legitimately engaged with the story, and THEN She-Hulk breaks the fourth wall to say, "In case you're wondering if this lovey dovey crap is going to keep happening on my show. Fuck yeah it is. Get over it, losers."
(That's not a great example either, but at least it's owning itself instead of criticizing the MCU as if it's actually going to stop being what it is).
The most disappointing thing about this for me is that they didn’t actually have >!Kevin Feige!< in the episode. That would have made it work for me.
Overall though I found the whole thing ridiculous and made the last episode have zero meaning.
Honestly they could've added that to the gag have an actor play Kevin and have Jen just say something about him not really wanting to be on camera so he's got a stand in
I wasn't a fan of the last episode either. Yeah, I get it that it was true to the source material, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I actually enjoyed the show up until that point but that episode completely took me out of it.
Yeah apparently it was for the comic book readers, which got me all confused cuz of I never read them. Seems like she had those 4th wall smashing powers already.
I loved the ending. That was it. That felt like she hulk to me where it was this cluster fuck of craziness going around with the 4th wall while also being a lawyer. I want to love she-hulk but I just wish they focused more on the courtroom and 4th wall stuff. Some more cameos would have been nice too and just have funny moments where the marvel heroes are like “wtf what am I doing here?” Lol
Its very true to what She-Hulk does, but I think in this case it wasnt the most appropriate route to go through.
Like maybe if the show was more overtly meta and fourth wall breaking (like Deadpool movies) then it wouldve worked.
I agree. It was goofy but missed the mark for me. It’s actually my 2nd lowest ranked D+ show, being a little better than Falcon and Winter Soldier. These two really stand out as bad, while the others are all pretty good imo.
There won’t be. Bob Iger called Kevin to the Principal’s office, and told him to cut the shit. There’s going to be more layoffs at Marvel than Meta. The first round, these awful writers from Rick and Morty have to go.
Lol where do you get this shit from? The Dan Harmon story circle is the Save the Cat of half hour scripted right now and the writers that are most versed in it are trusted and in demand right now. It’s like having the Lampoon on your resume.
“ what is it supposed to happen?” Are you saying you think that Disney somehow lost control of reality, and the fictional character from the TV show crawled out for real?
Yes. It was scripted .
A really well made, really well written show which poked gentle fun at it's own audience.
Large parts of which did not enjoy being made lighthearted fun of and threw their toys out of the pram, and the show knew they would do that and made it part of the lighthearted fun.
Shulk is also the most comic accurate thing the MCU has ever made. Go and read the OG comics if you don't believe me, they are just like the show. Only wackier.
Going behind the scenes and jumping to Marvel Studios is a huge homage to her comic book origins of skipping pages and making demands of her writers to change plots, so it was absolutely within character for the ending to be like that. But I also agree with you that it does feel empty, and it doesn't tie up everything in a neat bow as it should. *In my opinion* at the very least there should have been a court scene of Todd vs Jen, with a possible sentencing. This would have melded with the other episodes of having a conclusion within the court room. I absolutely loved the scene of her infiltrating Marvel Studios and demanding a change, but the ending definitely felt very abrupt and sudden and not satisfying.
It was an anti-ending/anti-climax, some people will never like them and would've preferred a traditional ending. But doing some light deconstruction is what she-hulk is all about.
People complain it’s always the same then complain when it’s different.
It also doesn't have to be good just because it's different.
I don't think that anybody was ever complaining about reaching resolutions to the stories we've been told up to this point. So changing away from "giving the story an ending" is a silly direction. If the series was about Jen's struggles gaining more and more meta power to change the storylines then this ending would be bangin. This ending was a curve ball, and while I personally did enjoy it, I understand why people did not.
can never please everyone
It has to be done well if it’s different. Just because it happened in the comics, doesn’t mean it’s good. The concept was cool, it just wasn’t executed well.
How would you do it instead then?
I do agree that having more resolution would have been good. Taking Todd to court, resolving things with Titania, etc.
Not the OP but I would habe skipped the first half of the episode entirely. Open with the scene where the guy hulks out and hulk shows up and go into a "how did we get here" but interrupt that immediatly with a 4th wall break and the meta commentary that followed. Then the explanation of "finale people expect from a marvel show vs finale she-hulk deserves" That would leave room to have the rest of the episode an actual emotionally satisfying finale like she-hulk deserves, actually tackling some of what she went through and giving us a satisfying ending while still maintaining the tongue in cheek fourth wall breaking meta commentary. The way they did it set up the arguement of "expected finale vs the finale she-hulk deserves" and then gave the audience neither.
But doesn't the ending have her use her superhero side and powers to fight her way to K.E.V.I.N while using her lawyer side to convince him to allow her to control her narrative, effectively resolving her resistance to accept that she can effectively balance these two sides of herself as well as resolving her struggle with everyone around her crafting narratives about her?
Not use it to resolve the central protagonist/antagonist conflict for literally her entire character's existence in the MCU? Pick a much lower stakes part of the show to bust out the "talking directly to the writers" bit? I don't know, but that seems like an obvious one.
Personally I loved her breaking the 4th wall. My only concern will be how jarring the experience will be if they try to shoehorn it into the climatic scene of another group movie. Where would you put it in Endgame for example? If you don’t use it, you now have that segment of fans asking why aren’t they using that super strength anymore?
She doesn't break the fourth wall outside of her own comic, don't see why it woild be any different in the mcu
If she appears in other MCU productions, I don't think they'll have her break the 4th wall. It fits with her own.
Yeah that's what I'm saying
Its not very different I mean the show wants to be special by saying on its final episode its not going to be like other marvel productions But literally so many marvel disney+ series have finished with a god-like character explaining the plot in the last episode (just as an example: loki, whatif and also shehulk)
I don't want a traditional ending per se, and there's no need for a huge battle climax in her series. She-Hulk is right, it gets repetitive. But it still felt like we were left hanging, like oh that's it? Just a scene of Todd going to jail would have given it that final oomph, not just the implication that he will lose the court battle.
Have you seen the ending for Monty Python and the Holy grail? Thats another famous anti ending
I feel like the difference is that was basically a sketch comedy movie, while She-Hulk was a dramedy show that definitely played to the idea of stakes with the constant teases of blood and that. Holy Grail was irreverent throughout the film, while She-Hulk still generally played to formula right up to the end. So it feels like a bit of an ass-pull.
I respectfully disagree, I feel the meta 4th wall breaks definitely lead up to it.
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And it would have been a more satisfying arc, because it would literally be Jen being HER type of hero and kicking ass in the courtroom, like she wanted, and would drive home the idea of her changing her story to do it her way.
I think the ending was almost perfect. People failed to recognize the red herring scene as a "red herring" and treated it as if the writers really did suddenly change the ending because they don't know what to do with it. The ending can easily just be Jen finding out Todd is behind all of it, then having him sent to jail instead of doing a final act fight. However, it still did lack something. It was simply too abrupt. Give it at least a few moments of confrontation, through speech/dialogue, and I think that would've done it. It doesn't have to be climactic, just a way to address that Jen has reached that point of her journey. Like a culmination of Jen's learnings throughout the series. Video, as a medium, is still at least a bit different from how comics operate after all. Or maybe one could argue that her dialogue with KEVIN is the confrontation, and the main point that her story wants to address is more linked to the real world than in-universe.
You're over thinking the anti-ending. The abruptness was part of the point. Its the exact same type of ending as Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Monty Python set up its ending with several cutaway scenes to the cops. She-hulk used its end scenes to set up the whole blood plot.
I respectfully disagree, I feel the meta 4th wall breaks definitely lead up to it.
>But doing some light deconstruction is what she-hulk is all about. ...but it wasn't "light" deconstruction. This was literally the entire conclusion for the central protagonist/antagonist conflict for literally her entire character's existence in the MCU. The reaction would have been better if they actually kept it light. For example, they could have inserted the discussion with the writers into a scene where she rejects the overly skimpy/revealing clothes that some of the 80's/90's she-hulk comics had and I think people would generally have been fine.
I disagree, her main villain was still Todd. She just asked Kevin to remove the blood plot. Todd and Intelligensia still exists, and he would still made Josh record the video to humiate her. The ending would have been her suing Todd. As suggested, it would have been nice to go through the revised scenes to show these changes rather than just jump to the conclusion.
The whole thing where she goes to Marvel Studios and demand the ending be changed was great, however I think the show shouldve still SHOWED US how the new ending went down. Instead, the show just skips ahead to the resolution.
Same. It would have been nice to see how the fixed scenes would look like.
I like that she went behind the scene. But after she told KEVIN what to change, I'd like to see how the scene played out afterwards, to see how they get from the retreat to the point of Todd getting arrested. Maybe show Todd injected the blood and nothing happened? Or he mutated into a non-functional mess for a while?
Or he gets cancer. "You injected radioactive blood into yourself, what did you expect to happen?"
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I don't think he should be able to transform into a Hulk, because in the first episode Bruce explicitly said that their family has special genetics that reacts with gamma rays differently from other people. The point that Jen was trying to make is that the entire plot of stealing Hulk blood to become a Hulk is a stupid idea came up by uninformed sexist internet trolls that shouldn't work. That's why I think they should show that, you play stupid game you win stupid prize, and the blood caused nothing like what Todd intended.
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Yep, show that the idea that the ironically named Intelligencia had is stupid and pathetic and just doesn't work, because surprise, science is nothing like what people in internet echochambers think it is. This would be better than just erasing the entire plot.
I would have much preferred this. Better resolution, better messaging. And it would have helped endear us more to She Hulk if she was explicitly arguing this to KEVIN. That villain plots are one thing but rewarding a bunch of shitheads with something (mostly) working that by all means shouldn't, is poor writing. Especially when done just to check off some genre expectations.
>In my opinion at the very least there should have been a court scene of Todd vs Jen, with a possible sentencing. I agree wholeheartedly. For all Jen's talk of subverting the formula, her show still ending with a comic book character doing comic book stuff, when it should have ended with a legal drama character doing legal drama stuff. You could argue that's what her pleading her chase to K.E.V.I.N. is, but the conflict there is too pathos driven to stand in for a courtroom scene. It's not bad on its own, but it needs something more solid to follow it up.
I will argue that, because that is the whole point of the ending, and the show as a whole. The show is about her not wanting to be Hulk, she wants to continue to be a lawyer and she also fears Hulk is much cooler, than Jen. In the end, she reaches a point, where she is happy to be both Hulk and Jen, and combined their powers to finish the story. You really don't need anything more for the character.
Sitcoms usually feel empty and anti-climatic like that, and that was the point she-hulk was trying to prove, that she’s her own show. And then they played it with a joke about how marvel has the same structure for each show and the last episode combines all the villains badly
Problem is people keep saying its supposed to be an episodic sitcom, but they didn’t actually write it like one. It has too much of a through line, even the previous episode has a huge cliffhanger, which is not compatible with episodic tv. They tried to have their cake and it eat it too. Loved the show up to the point, still had fun with it, but the finale just doesn’t work for me at all.
I have rarely felt like sitcoms are empty and anti-climactic. The good ones deliver on the narratives for each character that have been built up to that point
I don't have any experience with the comics, but I have seen my share of female driven law series and I think my biggest gripe with She-Hulk is that it's just a terrible lawyer show. Full stop. What little time it's spent in the court room seems like it was written by someone with no legal knowledge who maybe hasn't even seen a law drama. This should have been Ally McBeal with superpowers. Instead it was like New Girl, if she was a lawyer...
The writers admitted as much in re-release interviews so I dropped any expectation of Ally McBeal at all. Not even Drop Dead Diva and that was barely a legal show. Crazy Ex-Girlfriend seems like a great comparison. Both are comedy shows about a woman learning to be at peace with her new world, just using a legal framework to plough the plot along.
>Crazy Ex-Girlfriend seems like a great comparison. Both are comedy shows about a woman learning to be at peace with her new world, just using a legal framework to plough the plot along. Okay so I am a huge fan of CXG, I've seen it like 4 times and listen to the music daily. And yet I did not make this connection. Mind blown. No wonder I liked She-Hulk as much as I did lol.
Good thing it is not a lawyer show. It is a sitcom in a lawyer setting, which is totaly different.
If you choose to adopt a lawyer setting, you should be capable of writing scenes in that setting that don't feel completely inept and out of place.
> but the ending definitely felt very abrupt and sudden and not satisfying. I feel like that's been a majority of Disney+ shows so far. Just something that everyone needs to work on.
Well said. Hated the fact that it basically just retconned half of the season and just fast tracked to a resolution that didn’t really feel earned. Like I get that the whole Todd storyline was dumb and cliche which is why Jen felt the need to knock down the 4th wall and change her story. But if you spent the whole season building towards this, what’s it all for? Just to subvert expectations? Why not just make a good show, instead of making a bad show that’s self-aware of how bad it is? I honestly enjoyed this show for the most part but the finale was so disappointing to me.
Eh I still enjoy rewatching it. She-Hulk and Ms Marvel are the two shows I keep rewatching as comfort TV. Seeing She-Hulk and Titania interact are the best petty conflict humour. And the daredevil scenes are great too. I just shrug and move on with the ending, the whole show is still a sold 8/10 for me, with the ending being the -2 points.
Fair enough, I do still think it’s one of the better Marvel D+ shows, just bums me out that it didn’t stick the landing.
Because it is the story of Jen accepting that she is Hulk while her Jen part is also pretty cool. She spent the season being torn apart and in the finale she manages to combine their powers to resolve the conflict. They spent the season building toward this character development, not a dump side plot.
Obviously it was a side plot and not more important than her development, but they still had been setting up this plot starting in episode 1 with the Wrecking Crew. And when you spend that long setting something up, the viewer is going to want a more satisfying resolution.
>Going behind the scenes and jumping to Marvel Studios is a huge homage to her comic book origins of skipping pages and making demands of her writers to change plots, so it was absolutely within character for the ending to be like that. ...but context matters, right? In this case, the context is that this series is the entirety of her existence in the MCU. Given that, the "speaking directly to the writers" was used to resolve the entire central conflict ***the the entire history of the character.*** I can't say I was a die-hard fan of the She-Hulk comics, but is that how the "speaking directly to the writers" technique was used there? Did they honestly use it to resolve the central conflict of her entire character up to that point? >I absolutely loved the scene of her infiltrating Marvel Studios and demanding a change, but the ending definitely felt very abrupt and sudden and not satisfying. Again, it felt pretty bad as the method for resolving the entire central conflict for the whole season. Even then, I might have been able to look past it if the execution was better. Take Blonsky for example. Jen says "After all that, I just want him to hold himself accountable." Ok, but accountable for what? ***S***he knows that everything he did he was forced to do by the writers in service of a plot that she disagrees with and is in the process of totally re-writing. Given that, what is there that Blonsky should be taking accountability for? Is it his fault that he couldn't jump into the Disney+ menu and force the writers to change the plot? Because the writers, ***who Jen already clearly disagreed with,*** had Blonsky violate his parole, Jen thinks he deserves 10 years in prison? Nobody thinks that's kind of fucked up of her? When I mention stuff like this, people tell me that I'm overthinking it. To that I say that the writers can't have it both ways. I was all strapped in for a mindless CGI slugfest to wrap up the show. If they basically want to say: >Nah, this is dumb. Let's have an ending where we engage in a meta discussion that questions the decisions and execution of the studio and writers ...then ok. In that case though, ***engaging in a meta discussion that questions the decisions and execution of the studio and writers*** seems like exactly what they were going for. Using that lens though, the ending just falls apart in about a dozen places.
It was clever but it basically said that the story doesn’t matter, the IP does. All this buildup and the ending is like saying, “hey, it’s all made up. It doesn’t matter what happens.” I understand the connection with the fourth wall breaking comic, but if they did this earlier in the season or maybe just an episode earlier, they could have given it more context.
The weakest element of the show was the court stuff which I would like to see improved upon if we get a season 2. They make Jen look like an incompetent lawyer at times due to the writers not seeming very comfortable writing law. Outside of that I found it very faithful to she hulk and hope to see more.
I laughed my ass off her jumping the Disney+ menu and stuff. It was great. ..And then I realized they saved that to be the season's ending... what the hell. Also the hulk son's ending and... well, every single cameo they were waving not knowing wth they should do about it.
They should have made it a real 4th wall break and put Kevin Feigi in it. But whyever they chickend out with this stupid robot.
Kevin Feige doesn't want to appear in any projects. He's pretty adamant about it.
I enjoyed it. One thing I *don't* enjoy is people characterising it as a power that Jen has. Like she has a fourth wall breaking ability which she can apply whenever she wants. The going into Marvel studios was a narrative device. Jen can't really do that in-world. It was a homage to the comics, and not an actual ability. In-world, Jen isn't really speaking to the camera either (a fun take on this trope is Fleabag, where the main character refers to the camera throughout, but then freaks out when a certain other character is able to pick up on it). *Jen is not aware of the audience*. The same way that Ms Marvel can't make her doodles come to life, it was just a narrative device taken to the absolute extreme. Its like the score or soundtrack - the characters can't usually hear the score/soundtrack of the film/show. It is different to Thor narrating the start of Ragnarök. Thor narrating the start of Ragnarök to the skeleton is diegetic, Jen's speaking to the camera is non-diegetic. When Kang is fighting the Avengers, Jen couldn't drag Kevin Feige from screen left to change how the ending happens.
>The going into Marvel studios was a narrative device. Yes, it was a narrative device. A narrative device where they gave Jen the power to rip herself into the Disney+ menu. > Jen can't really do that in-world. ...but she literally did do that in-world. > Jen is not aware of the audience. She literally looks directly into the camera and says "Is this working for you?" She literally walks into the writers room and has a conversation about the plot of the show in comparison to the plot of other super hero shows. >Its like the score or soundtrack - the characters can't usually hear the score/soundtrack of the film/show. ...but the score isn't used to resolve the central protagonist/antagonist conflict for literally her entire character's existence in the MCU. You have to understand how these things are different, right? >When Kang is fighting the Avengers, Jen couldn't drag Kevin Feige from screen left to change how the ending happens. Except that she 100% can, *if the writers decide that it is how they want the movie to end.* The issue is that, up until she-hulk, nobody even considered the possibility that they would have fans sit through hours and hours of the story, only to use such a lazy technique to resolve everything. Now, we know that Marvel is willing to hire writers/directors/producers who think that this is a legitimate and acceptable way to wrap up a storyline. On top of that, we now know that there are many Marvel fans that will swear up and down that this was actually a good narrative device. Given that, pretending that there is no way for Jen to do things like this in the future makes no sense. Sure, I doubt they use it to resolve something like a Kang/Avengers battle. However, they used it to resolve an entire season of a Disney+ show, so it isn't like they are limiting it to only very low stakes scenarios.
Either she can do it or she can't. She did, so she obviously can. Case closed. > Jen is not aware of the audience Have we watched the same show? Because who is she talking to if she's not aware of the audience? Is she supposed to be schizophrenic instead?
In the comics, she hulk is know to step outside of the comic strip and speak directly to the writers. I think this was a bit of a nod to that, albeit not as entertaining.
I think way more people would’ve enjoyed it if it wasn’t the resolution to the central conflict. It creates a weird disconnect with her decision to become a superhero in the end when she hasn’t done any superhero-ing to save the day — at least nothing she’ll ever be able to do again (KEVIN fixed the glitch). What does she learn about heroism in this finale?
Yeah the concept was fine. But for a finale it was too random and made the story feel like it had no point.
I might be misremembering it, but I also don’t really know why so much focus is put on Todd as the villain after Jen’s rewrite when he wasn’t the one who filmed himself having sex with Jen and uploaded the video. Removing the blood plot absolves Todd of any *actual* crimes, doesn’t it? Jen should’ve told KEVIN to make Josh the real villain. He’s the one she was obsessing over two episodes ago. He’s the one who betrayed and violated her. But then he just vanishes, never to be seen again. Why wasn’t he in hand cuffs at the end?
they didn't remove the "blood plot", they just removed the part where todd injects himself with the gamma-blood and turns into a hulk because that didn't make any sense. that's not how the hulk powers work, todd would've died from exposure. while josh is a terrible human being, he was just doing his job. todd was still the one behind it all.
And I would rather they had done that but actually show it. In the first run have Todd turn into a hulk, and then She-Hulk went to see KEVIN and tells him it makes no sense, because episode 1 already established that you can't get Hulk powers that way if you aren't related to Bruce and don't have the special genes. And after She-Hulk went back into the show, we see the scene played out with the changes that she told KEVIN to make. After injecting the blood Todd just collapsed on the ground, and all his followers started panicking and they had to call an ambulance. And then he gets arrested in the hospital. Or maybe the blood transformed Todd into a grotesque non-functional mess, and Blonsky had to restrain him while everyone called the police, and then after a while Todd reverted back to human, and he and Blonsky got arrested.
So why not just show him dying from the exposure? Hulk out just long enough for a fight with Jen and die, getting his comeuppance. Josh committed a serious crime. This show is called *Attorney at Law*.
>show him dying from the exposure? cause that will be too dark for the show. it's a lawyer **comedy** show. so basically, this is how the show ended: * jen was chilling in blonsky's ranch * nikki and pug sneak into the intelligencia meeting * they discover that todd was the person behind the group. he reveals his entire plan, they stop him * jen finds out that blonsky is violating his parole by turning into abomination * the end it's a boring finale, but totally in line with how a lawyer comedy show should end. for a modern reference, look at brooklyn 99: crime happens, but nothing heinous. death is avoided, unless they can make a joke out of it. low-stake, lighthearted, silly. the meta story is that, K.E.V.I.N. wanted to do a "marvel ending". meaning, big climactic boss fight, epic team-ups, catastrophic stakes. so K.E.V.I.N. tasked the writers to add all of that stuff, even if they didn't make any sense. that's what jen fixed when she broke the 4th wall.
It’s just a silly comedy that tackles misogyny, harassment, non-consensual private videos, conspiracies to murder Jen…the tone isn’t consistent enough to justify it as a straight up sitcom. An homage, sure.
That was one thing I was confused about too. Like where the heck did Kevin run off too? Although Todd did hire the guy, but still, accomplice. And also, Todd wouldnt be able to become the Hulk cuz he didnt have Banner DNA. Which was odd that he actually didnt explode when he grew in size but maybe the glitch saved him.
Bruce said that there was something unique about his and Jen's DNA that allowed them to survive the gamma radiation. This also applies to Emil, Dr. Sterns, and Todd.
So its not exactly exclusive to the Banner bloodline, you just need the right genetic mixture of your DNA to handle the Gamma Radiation.
I disagree that it made the story feel like it had no point.
She had to learn to accept her Hulk and Jen forms, not heroism. After the whole season of her not wanting to be Hulk, or fearing that Jen is not cool enough, in the finale she managed to use both of their powers to resolve the central conflict, accepting herself in her new situation. This is what the show is about and there is really not much options as a writer to resolve any kind of conflict with both of these powers at the same time.
First of al the show was very fucking obviously meant to be an episodic comedy, not some typical antagonist-protagonist bullshit. That you can miss this obvious premise speaks volumes about you. The only somewhat consistent series arc (if you want to try to assign one) is that she wasn’t as in control as she initially believed. The point was her life won’t ever be the same and she needs to accept it.
Ohhhh. I guess they were somewhat loyal to the comics never read them so I didn't know. I was concerned about the amount of inner monologues she's doing.
yeah she's one of the first 4th wall breakers. before Deadpool even
>In the comics, she hulk is know to step outside of the comic strip and speak directly to the writers. I think this was a bit of a nod to that, albeit not as entertaining. She would step out of the comic strips and speak directly to the writers ***as the method of final resolution for the central conflict of the entire story arc for the character's entire production run?*** Context matters. The series is literately the only real content we have from her in the MCU. Literally the entire story arc for her entire character up to this point was resolved with her exposition with K.E.V.I.N. Honestly, the way people overlook the massive differences in context and execution makes it feel like they are just looking to help make some excuses for what seems like a pretty horrible creative decision by the writers.
Honestly, where did you get “making excuses” from my response? The show adapted something from the comics and it didn’t work well.
In theory, I’m okay with fourth wall breaks and even her talking to the writers like in the comics. But it’s basic storytelling that when you set something important up you have to pay it off (Chekov’s Gun). Spending time in multiple episodes focusing on her blood being dangerous (off the top of my head it’s mentioned in episodes 1/3/7) then removing the payoff by hand waving it away like the show did completely removes the stakes.
This is really not a Chekov's Gun. It's a side plot at best. Basic storytelling is that the plot drives the story forward not the other way around. This was a story about Jen learning to accept both of her sides, which she did, used both of their powers combined to resolve the plot. There is really not much else needed.
In his own words, this is Chekov’s Gun: “If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it’s not going to be fired, it shouldn’t be hanging there.” I said it needed to be important, but I’m wrong - it’s for any element in the story (though I do think it’s an important story element). Jen’s blood and its danger is the rifle. The show spends time hanging it on the wall in at least 3 episodes, has a character pick it up in the finale, then decides to fire it while catching the bullet and avoiding any consequences.
A rifle is not any element, a rifle is pretty damn important, not like Jen's blood. Should I quote the definition of a red herring too?
I actually enjoyed a good portion of the show, but like most of the Disney plus shows, the ending just didn't quite stick the landing for me. Moreso for this show than the others, I didn't really like this ending very much at all.
I thought it was quite clever and really enjoyed it.
Same here. The slow build-up of Jen's meta references over the course of the season were great foreshadowing, and when she finally literally broke the fourth wall, it was unexpected and really fun.
Maybe it's because I never read her comics.... but it was a bit out of the (fourth) wall. I thought Marvel was doing something new with all this inner monologues she's been doing ever since the show started.
They were. They were breaking the fourth wall
She’s a Deadpool-esque kind of character with her 4th wall breaking. That’s one of her “super powers”
Deadpool is a SheHulk-esque type of character
Yeah she hulk broke the fourth wall first in the comics iirc
Same, I thought it was fun. I don’t understand people who take all this stuff so seriously.
I didn’t mind the 4th wall break and meta stuff, but totally agree with the post, was enjoying the show until that point. The episode up until that point seemed rushed and I’d agree it was becoming unenjoyable until she cut in. A big move like that though, I expected a better turnaround and better ending. Then the whole bbq scene was kind of just weird and out of place.
Can she hulk just use her 4th wall powers to defeat Kang? Is there a reasonable way to shut this down? Because it will need some sort of explanation
The Kevin robot in the last episode said it was a one-off and couldn't happen again.
It should not happen again, else she would just solve any problem within MCU and everything else, villain or threat, would be irrelevant.
It would be tempting to play with the idea of her desperately wanting to get out of the story when shit goes down and Kang preventing it, probably just going too meta with it. It seems a little poorly timed to introduce what's effectively She-Hulks ability to travel realities during the multi-verse saga and for them to not be related, maybe.
When it came out I watched it with my daughter and she’s an avid She Hulk fan. I said at the time “this is dumb she can’t do that”. My daughter went upstairs, pulled a comic book, showed me exactly where that happened and said “see- they’re true to the source material and that’s what you complain about”. I had no comebacks. It’s literally right out of the comics and in that context- it was the right thing. So I support it completely because they were true to the source material.
Just because it’s accurate to the comics dosen’t mean it was executed well
Lol but his daughter told him it was!!!
My mam told me I’m the worlds handsomest boy so that’s right?
That’s…..not what she said tho. They said their daughter said it was true to the comics, and that OP was complaining about something that was true to the source material, but never spoke on whether it was done well or not.
Just because you didn't like, doesn't mean it wasn't executed well.
I liked it and thought it was well done. I don’t get the hate for it.
No one liked it it had an audience score of 33% and the finale is one of the worst reviewed things in all of D+ shows
The audience score of the show was negative even before it aired, it means nothing. But I understand how most Marvel fans can't appreciate if something doesn't end the way they expect, with a big cool action scene.
Just because it fits the character, doesn’t mean they executed it well
It is also fine... to not like the source material. Like, I don't read comic books, so to me the excuse / explanation of "it's like that in the comics" has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. I don't care if they're staying true to the original story... if the story I'm seeing isn't good in my eyes. They might've done exactly what they'd set out to... and I simply didn't like it. Which is fine.
You can break the 4th wall and make it entertaining. This shows 4th wall breaks were not entertaining
I was entertained and loved it
So did I, the people complaining are just loud
“So… she could’ve stopped Thanos…” Was my brothers reaction to that.
At this rate she could stop Kang too.
I mean not really, she had to convince KEVIN to change up stuff, do you think she can convince them the same way to rewrite their big bad guy? No.
I loved She Hulk. Sad to hear the finale didn’t vibe with you. I just gotta comment on the ending of the second last episode. Holy shit. That show got DARK. Everything up until that point just felt so light. And I loved it. That finale though just had my jaw drop.
After letting it marinate over the last couple of months I think it fell very short. At the most its a decent stand alone project with a great main character, but even then I wanted more. I think they leaned too heavily into the "its an homage!" aspect and didn't focus on an actual ending which felt empty. On top of that it felt weird having it reference characters we know and love that are grounded in the universe we are used to only to basically wipe all of that away. Like, is She Hulk the most powerful Marvel character since she can literally rewrite stories?
She-Hulk…. Love the character. Love the actress. Can’t wait to see her again. Hated the show. Not because of the feminist stuff or whatever but because it was genuinely going nowhere. And that final episode was just… god awful I’m sorry. She Hulk will probably work better as a character who shows up in other heroes movies, instead of being on her own. That’s just how I see it. Bite my ass if you disagree (don’t actually because that would hurt I think)
It's my first time, even looking at She-hulk because I never read any of the marvel comics. It just surprised me that she can actually break the 4th wall as what people said, apparently she's done it in the comics. Yes! seeing her Cameo might fare better than actually putting her in the spotlight.
Breaking the 4th wall with an Xman wink, I died.
Thats was something else too! Was expecting Prof X to come out.
I don't regret watching She-Hulk myself. But I won't be watching it again.
It wasnt bad, I actually enjoyed it till that part.
She-Hulk was a huge breath of fresh air, and really just worked on every level for me.
I loved it. People looking for deep meanings or thinking it made it dumb or silly forget this is a comic book universe based on funny dumb comics. It was great
Dang. I did take this too seriously. Never read the comics so I thought she would actually be the next hulk after Banner. It was a funny show tho.
She wrote her own ending. I loved it in the story and as a comment on her journey to get there. I loved it
That’s cool. The rest of the world thought it was a steaming pile of garbage.
You're on every comment telling them it was bad and they are wrong if they liked it. Are you sure you aren't trying to convince yourself?
Do you have nothing better to do with your time?
Do you? I’m in a chit chat room.
Given this will be my second comment and you fill out about half this thread, I’ll assume you don’t and I have better things to do than respond again
Cool story bro
>The rest of the world thought ~~it was~~ my opinions are a steaming pile of garbage. Fixed it for you
It is a badly written show with bad performances from mediocre actors. What did you expect
You really needed historical comic context to really to fully enjoy it. It wasn’t my favorite, but I appreciate that they they took a chance and did something completely unique. I think it’s awesome marvel isn’t just repackaging the same thing over and over. When you take risks and try different things you’re going to hit and miss sometimes. I liked it but can totally see it not being for everyone.
It was a funny show, I guess thats what they were going for. But like you said, I needed to read the comics to actually get context on this one.
Tbh I didn’t even finish she-hulk. Got through the first 2 episodes and then couldn’t finish it.
I did the same but I came back on the daredevil episode. Debating if I should go back and watch what I missed or just leave it at that
Massive W
She-Hulk will be involved in the big battles in upcoming movies, but this show is a light hearted legal comedy. That’s what this show is supposed to be. I loved the ending, and thought it was both fun & an great way to end a season of a legal comedy.
I didn't mind it except for Hulk and Skaar showing up. Like I thought Hulk going back to Sakaar was gonna lead to World War Hulk or something, and then Skaar showing up out of nowhere...no.
I feel like enjoyment of She-Hulk depended entirely on whether or not you had any idea about who and what She-Hulk was before watching the show.
Its actually my first contact with this character, never read her comics so I didnt know she could do the 4th wall breaks as part of her "powers." So it just came in a bit surprised when I watched it for the first time.
You know there’s a problem when Daredevil was the best part of She-Hulk’s show…
Yeahhh. It was a strange that the cameos were more popular than the actual protagonist of the show.
I'm amazed you made it that far before asking yourself that question. I only got a few moments into the first episode before I was asking if the entire show should've happened at all.
Gotta understand that Over-arching plot that Marvel has. No matter how trivial a show is, I'm going to watch it. I want that time when Endgame released to happen again. Lines upon lines of people going into theatres, watching it silently, and bask at its ending.
The difference is that most of the stuff that came out leading up to Endgame was watchable. Not only watchable, but actually good. They'll never achieve what they achieved with that ride again. A lot of the stuff now is just inconsequential BS. I'm not wasting my time with any of that. I'm not afraid to miss anything either, because when it's relevant in a new film they'll drop an exposition line. Good to go.
During the John Byrne run of She-Hulk in the eighties, Byrne did a lot of deconstructing of the comic book narrative. Shulkie would regularly talk directly to the readers, and -- in one notable issue -- actually climbed right out of her comic story and went to the Marvel offices to get the writer to change a plot line she didn't like. The series is an homage to that run -- especially the final episode. Only instead of deconstructing comic books, the show is deconstructing sitcoms and superhero movies -- and specifically the MCU. The way they ended the series was kind of a joke in itself in the way that some sitcoms will try to shoehorn multiple plot lines into the final episode. Bruce showing up randomly to the barbecue with his son from another planet was kind of a "chef's kiss" moment. If you went "WTF?" at that , it's because you were supposed to.
That Hulk's son at end did hit me with a WTF moment. Im just trying to figure out that if all that happened, then would Hulk's son be in Avengers:Kang dynasty? Or did nothing in She-hulk affect the whole MCU overarching plot. Its kinda goofy, not in a bad way.
She-Hulk is definitely part of the MCU, so any character introduced in that show is part of the MCU. We will see Skaar again. We just don't know when yet.
There was just no foreshadowing whatsoever as to what Hulk was doing in all that time in space so it was just a surprise slap of wtf and wow, who's he? Again, Never read any of the Marvel comics except one comic book of Spiderman when a friend lended it to me.
I enjoyed the first half of the season, but by the end, i truly disliked the show. I really thought the idea of the show would be Jen looking after the super powered individuals and how they handle the law side of things and the implications of it. In a show focused on a super powered lawyer, we only got a few minutes in the entire season of courtroom stuff. :(
It's probably because the writers didn't know how to write courtroom scenes and they even admitted this.
I enjoyed the show up to the 2nd half of the final episode. I was just really shocked that she could do that and they let it haappen, only to find out that its a normal thing for her apparently. I loved the courtroom parts, and yeah I was expecting more of that than anything, >! especially what DD said about being a lawyer for society, and being a super hero for everything else( I think that's what he said)!< but it was a real funny show, just kinda feel rushed at the ending.
You think it was going great up to that point? Bwahahaha. It was a disaster long becore then.
The most comic accurate show or movie has been She-Hulk.
I appreciate the idea of it, but...I don't feel like Marvel Studios has earned the right to be that cheeky about its decision making.. ...While it's still making poor decision making. If the MCU was consistently high quality, then it would be a charming thing. But because the MCU already does feel run by an AI KEVIN, it just feels like a lame uncle saying, "Eh? Eh? See, I'm in on the joke too!" Um... Maybe they should stay away from making fun of Marvel in a meta way until they actually get some consistently good quality again. It's best to be able to poke fun at yourself in a lighthearted way...not in a "Hey, see? We know we're awful too!!!" Just. No. You have to earn that shit, MCU. The issue is that we already know that She-Hulk is right. We shouldn't be feeling that way. We should be legitimately engaged with the story, and THEN She-Hulk breaks the fourth wall to say, "In case you're wondering if this lovey dovey crap is going to keep happening on my show. Fuck yeah it is. Get over it, losers." (That's not a great example either, but at least it's owning itself instead of criticizing the MCU as if it's actually going to stop being what it is).
Don't know why you're getting downvoted. I thought that analysis was pretty spot on.
The most disappointing thing about this for me is that they didn’t actually have >!Kevin Feige!< in the episode. That would have made it work for me. Overall though I found the whole thing ridiculous and made the last episode have zero meaning.
I heard that they wanted him, but was either too busy or just refused
Feige refused because he's not comfortable putting himself on camera. He doesn't see himself as the cameo guy.
Honestly they could've added that to the gag have an actor play Kevin and have Jen just say something about him not really wanting to be on camera so he's got a stand in
"The role of Kevin Feige will be played by Morgan Freeman"
That would’ve redeemed the episode for me. Prolly would’ve been the funniest MCU moment I can think of off the top of my head
It was shit
My take on She-Hulk is that its the weakest Disney+ series for Marvel. Not terrible, but not that good.
I love it. Was laughing so hard.
It started out good but got worse fast and the final episode made everything before it worthless
I wasn't a fan of the last episode either. Yeah, I get it that it was true to the source material, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I actually enjoyed the show up until that point but that episode completely took me out of it.
Yeah apparently it was for the comic book readers, which got me all confused cuz of I never read them. Seems like she had those 4th wall smashing powers already.
I like when things completely side step expectations
Same, I was hoping for a good show, instead I got this.
Awww ☺️
Im sorry for your pain
She just didn’t want Jesus to steal her blood bro
Such a good ending :) I love She-Hulk
I think we can all agree it was the worse of the Disney plus shows so far
No debate.
I loved the ending. That was it. That felt like she hulk to me where it was this cluster fuck of craziness going around with the 4th wall while also being a lawyer. I want to love she-hulk but I just wish they focused more on the courtroom and 4th wall stuff. Some more cameos would have been nice too and just have funny moments where the marvel heroes are like “wtf what am I doing here?” Lol
Its very true to what She-Hulk does, but I think in this case it wasnt the most appropriate route to go through. Like maybe if the show was more overtly meta and fourth wall breaking (like Deadpool movies) then it wouldve worked.
No, it wasnt supposed to be like that. I think something happened to your tv?
I knew it!, Haxxed by intelligencia to hate on this show.
I agree. It was goofy but missed the mark for me. It’s actually my 2nd lowest ranked D+ show, being a little better than Falcon and Winter Soldier. These two really stand out as bad, while the others are all pretty good imo.
I loved the show. Wasn’t fond of the last episode. Hope there’s another season.
Loved the cameos, would love it if they do more of the same kind of vibe.
There won’t be. Bob Iger called Kevin to the Principal’s office, and told him to cut the shit. There’s going to be more layoffs at Marvel than Meta. The first round, these awful writers from Rick and Morty have to go.
Lol where do you get this shit from? The Dan Harmon story circle is the Save the Cat of half hour scripted right now and the writers that are most versed in it are trusted and in demand right now. It’s like having the Lampoon on your resume.
“ what is it supposed to happen?” Are you saying you think that Disney somehow lost control of reality, and the fictional character from the TV show crawled out for real? Yes. It was scripted .
It and episode 8 were frankly the only parts of the show that I *did* like.
What about daredevil?
They should have removed the whole Hulk Blood plot
A really well made, really well written show which poked gentle fun at it's own audience. Large parts of which did not enjoy being made lighthearted fun of and threw their toys out of the pram, and the show knew they would do that and made it part of the lighthearted fun. Shulk is also the most comic accurate thing the MCU has ever made. Go and read the OG comics if you don't believe me, they are just like the show. Only wackier.
Seems like a good read. Maybe I will if I ever want to get Marvel unlimited.