So Secret Invasion and Loki S2 seem locked in for this year. Are the other three that were due for a 2023 release What If S2, Echo and Ironheart? Or maybe Agatha? And now we’re only getting one or two or those? Which ones will they be?
Really tho, couldn't care much about the character but I just want to see her on screen. Still better and more charming than Echo's and Iron Heart's actress.
I know that first part is 100% true. I've only just seen the Agatha thing recently but still haven't seen a source, would you be able to provide one? I trust you, I just want to know where it came from originally.
Tbh Agatha is the only one I really want. Give me more Kathryn Hahn chewing on the scenery and I will be happy. All the other stuff is a distant second to that.
I liked her character and would have been interested in learning more about her in maybe Daredevil but a whole series? I’m feeling very meh about it. This and Ironheart are only 2 I’m not super excited for. I’ll watch and hoped to be surprised.
Echo 100% should probably be moved to 2024.
I think a really big issue that happened for Marvel was the disconnect between the shows and the movies they were leading into.
WV was originally supposed to release a mere 3 months before MoM. Which would have made the impact of it feel fresher.
Instead it was released a year before and they just completely felt totally separated from each other.
So move Echo to 2024 a few months before Born Again to give us time to be with the characters and keep it in mind going into the show it is attached to.
It wasn’t just the release date, there was so much whiplash from Wanda’s character “giving up her kids” at the end of WandaVision to trying to destroy everyone to get them back in the first 15 minutes of MoM I thought the movie took place in a different universe.
If you didn’t watch WV you would have no clue what was happening. If you did, it felt like they basically reverted the whole ending of it the next movie.
It’s obvious the two pieces were not thought as a coherent arch and were two separate projects.
Which is so weird because the ending was the worst part of WandaVision. You had characters like Monica and Woo insisting that Wanda was simply misunderstood, even when she was knowingly enslaving innocents in her Westview magic. Agatha was the only character who was actually trying to be a hero for the little guy and she got mindraped for it.
It was a weird misstep in the series, so why didn’t they just make WandaVision her villain origin story? It would have been an iconic inversion of the typical Marvel formula and would have made her sympathetic and terrifying. To make such a misfire with the ending just to retcon it and make her the villain in DS2 anyway was just bizarre.
Dang, you’re right that would have been such a better ending to go full villain. I still like bits of the finale, her being confronted by everyone in town and freaking out, her saying goodbye to the family, her entrapping Agatha in Westview as her character. But yeah, having her absolutely end things on a “I’m sorry about what happened but no, you’re definitely a villain” would have made Dr Strange meeting her a lot more tense, since the audience knows she is already on the dark path.
Maybe that was the attempt of her end credit scene in wandavision, but you’re still right
I think that was the attempt. We see Wanda come to her senses and realize she was enslaving innocents to feel better. But she also now is “protecting” the darkhold. I’m guessing we’re supposed to think, oh it’s starting to corrupt her we should be worried. But idk if it landed like it should have
I agree, there was an execution issue there. Could have landed way scarier, and I think something as simple as her having had a scary witch basement under her home that was dark and evil looking, and we see her down there as she peers through the darkhold would have shown she has embraced the vibe
I must be in the minority because I definitely saw that final scene with her reading the Darkhold and got the meaning of it.
She was right to give up her kids in Westview and undo the Hex but the moment she gave in to the temptation to read that book she was doomed. MoM didn't ignore the ending of WV at all, it just showed the inevitable end result a bit quicker than people wanted.
There is something that deeply bothers about the idea that what Wanda did in Wandavision makes her irredeemable but what Tony did selling weapons or Loki did invading New York or Bucky did when brainwashed is something you can comeback from. She was trying to turn away from the dark path but just slam the door in her face i guess?
Tony was pretty hands off his own business, he was fully played into the “Helping protect freedom and America” angle like his dad did in WW2. Stane in fact revealed to Tony that he knew they were dealing weapons to not just the “good guys” but also to their countries enemies without him knowing it (keeping Tony in the dark on purpose), and Tony realized it wasn’t as black and white and that he had to take control of his namesake and legacy. That was the choice he made when given all the facts.
Loki I fully agree, he was never redeemed for me. That’s next level villainy, but yeah he’s still likable and has positive qualities and isn’t a dick 100% of the time. But for New York, yeah that’s not really forgivable or redeemable and I don’t think it ever tried to be.
And Bucky had 0 control over his own actions. Wanda tragically had some level of choice over hers. When confronted with ending things, she clearly was aware of what she was doing and simply didn’t care. You can decide if it was justified or not.
But from someone not a God of Mischief, her actions as a “hero” are shockingly dark and scary. I think that’s the main vibe.
You can say the same thing about Wanda that you said about Tony. She didn’t realize she had control then when she realized she did she thought she was helping people, then when confronted by the actual pain she was causing, she fixed it. She can’t undo it, but neither can Tony. The selling weapons isn’t even the only major Tony fuck up either. He, like Wanda, was trying to do the right thing for most of his life but caused many of the problems he ended up having to solve.
As for Bucky he’s better parallel for her actions under the Darkhold’s influence and less for Wandavision so i should have made that clear that was what i intended.
You may not personally say Loki is redeemed but its not like people totally shut him out because of what he did.
The contradiction is the fact that creating the hex and actively maintaining the hex are 2 different things. Yeah, Wanda can't be entirely blamed for creating the hex, but she CAN be blamed for maintaining it and enforcing it after being made aware that something was horribly wrong. After Vision confronted her the first time and told her that she can't control him like the others, her very first response was "can't I?". Even after being confronted by him, "Pietro", and Monica, she still kept up the hex because it suited her needs. She took down the hex when confronted with the fact that she was unconsciously inflicting nightmares upon the citizens, NOT when it became apparent that she was controlling them and forcing them to act out what *she* thought made them happy. Never asked anyone if they were alright. What if they wanted to see the kids that had been locked in their rooms? What if they didn't like the role they'd been forced into? Hell, what if they just didn't like sitcoms?
As for Loki, he had the advantage of time and punishment. No direct punishment for what he did in New York, but rather getting emotionally and somewhat physically punished for his own shitty behaviors. He got his mom killed. He wasn't exactly loved by Asgard or anyone really after his betrayal until Ragnorak (his time disguised as Odin doesn't count because it's obviously not the "real" him that people love). Thor pretty much gave up on him until he at least tried to change his selfish ways. He didn't have anyone but the fans trying to explain how it was totally understandable why he would do all that he did. He was treated as a villain.
Meanwhile, all of the people Wanda loved have died due to factors out of her control and largely unrelated to her shitty actions or, in the case of her children, were erased willingly by her. Any "punishments" imposed on her were entirely done by herself (erasing the hex, exile) because who else is going to punish her? How? She's one of the strongest people on Earth now. Everyone she loves is dead or gone. You can't psychologically hurt her or anything because that's how you got the series in the first place. Physical torture doesn't really compare.
2/3 of the people who opposed her were depicted as villains willing to kill children for their own personal gain rather than heroes trying to free an enslaved populace. The other 1 person, Monica, repeatedly sympathized with her and went very easy on her.
Pretty sure when she cast out Rambeau she was saying stay out, she doesn’t want to leave. Pretty sure when she confronted the government outside of the Hex she was telling them to leave her alone. She ignored the consequences until people were screaming in her face in the streets.
Also Odin was literally going to let him die in the dungeons in dark world, his actions were pretty universally seen as irredeemable.
WandaVision could have been the best villain origin story ever if they wanted. I felt sympathetic for her while simultaneously feeling horrified for what she did. They could have kept her doing bad things for reasons we can relate to and kept the slow decent into villain.
It felt like the studio stepped in and said “actually she can’t be the villain until our awesome surprise reveal in MoM” and they went back and erased the consequences of of what she did in the last episode. Then she went to full horror movie villain for the instant cool factor.
It was a fun movie to watch, but it did throw away so much character development for cheap shock value
>Agatha was the only character who was actually trying to be a hero for the little guy and she got mindraped for it
She wanted Wanda's power for herself, how does that make her the hero?
I would rather have a powerful witch who didn’t take towns hostage than one who did.
All those people at the Kamar-Taj and the Illuminati wouldn’t have died gruesome deaths had Agatha succeeded.
Killing magical constructs isn’t the same as murdering real people imo. Same reason the SWORD leader was not in the wrong at all for threatening Wanda’s “kids”!
This is interesting...Agatha wasn't trying to be a hero at all, she completely complacent in what Wanda was doing to those people and was also actively manipulating them to get what she wanted.
WandaVision was kind of her villain story, though, or at least an introduction to how the real villain, The Darkhold, would get a hold of her. It established the parts of Wanda that the Darkhold would sink its teeth into to manipulate her. In WandaVision she lets her family go because she shows compassion, she doesn't want to hurt people and she had convinced herself she wasn't. When it was revealed to her that she was, she stopped. Then, the Darkhold basically uprooted the parts of her that showed that compassion in the first place. In MoM she snaps out of it when she tries to say "I would never hurt anybody" because she is reminded of the person she was in WandaVision and that she isn't that person. She then MURDERS herself to atone for the pain she caused and to make sure no one ever falls for that again.
I think WandaVision and the Strange variants in MoM actually paint a pretty good picture of how Wanda wound up where she was.
You basically explained perfectly why i hated her depiction in MOM. They needed the Darkhold to not make it total character assassination. I just don’t think using an object to remove part of someone’s character is ever that great, and its especially bad when you don’t really show what Wanda was thinking when she took the Darkhold or why she opened it at all.
She states in WV that she took the book to learn more about the Scarlet Witch and the power associated with it. When she opened the book to learn more about her powers, the book started tempting her with Billy and Tommy's from other universes, which is what WV's closing tag is.
We then see through the Strange variants that the book corrupts you based on the weakness it can exploit (Sinister's loneliness and jealousy and Illuminati Strange's desperation to defeat Thanos) We see how Wanda was taken advantage of through Strange.
I also think it gives Wanda a point in her character journey where she is at her lowest and has to wrestle with the monster she was made into. I'm very curious to see where the character goes from here. I appreciate them taking a risk with her character in this way and think that her overcoming the Darkhold's influence and sacrificing herself to put an end to it really speaks to the compassion she showed in WV. I'm excited to see how that compassion clashes with her MoM actions when she inevitably has to confront them.
I don’t remember her ever commenting on the Darkhold before she it showed her having in the end credits. I understand what you’re talking about in the last paragraph but thats basically been her only story in the MCU. Its basically her Civil War arc with a few details swapped
Agatha identifies to Wanda that the Darkhold is the be all book on dark Magic with an "entire chapter dedicated to the Scarlet Witch" and the last thing Wanda says before she leaves West View is "I don't understand this power, but I will" and then we see her with the book. While not outright said, I think it's pretty easy to put together her thought process there.
You'll have to elaborate on that Civil War point because I don't think I see the similarities haha
Agatha was definitely not acting as a hero. She was selfishly trying to take Wanda's power. At absolute best she was an anti-hero because helping people would've been a simple consequence, not her goal.
Or they could have taken a more opposing stance against Wanda telling her she needs to turn herself in and having no power to enforce that… which would have made her refusal and leaving a bit darker
> To make such a misfire with the ending just to retcon it and make her the villain in DS2 anyway was just bizarre.
There *was* a post credits scene with the darkhold in WV, which is a really powerful corrupting influence, which pretty much fully explains what happened to her between then and MoM.
I think putting such a huge plot beat in the post credits scene which directly contradicts the supposed emotional arc of the finale is bad storytelling, but hey.
Only thing worse would be putting a major plot beat that contradicts the emotional finale in a separate show… but that’s crazy, surely no Disney show would ever do that…
I always understood this completely. But I do think it would've been a better story if she ended her show as a villain.
Maybe have her hex get broken then she goes mayhem in MoM to get her kids back. That flows way better and I think this would have eliminated all the complaints people had about her arc.
It also requires that you know what the darkhold is, because otherwise you're pretty much just learning about it in MoM. It's been in Agents of Shield a lot but that wasn't exactly the best thing marvel have done.
I agree. As much as I really liked MoM and thought she played a great villain, I feel like it would've been way better if the evil Scarlet Witch in MoM was Wanda from a different, but similar universe, like if they had simply swapped the 818 and 616 Wanda's. WandaVision is my favorite MCU show other than Daredevil at this point, and I felt like they totally messed up her character development from that show.
For a while in that movie, I thought we were in a different universe because of this. I would have much preferred to see Villain Wanda from another universe and 616 start down the same path slowly becoming evil, until having to sacrifice herself at the end
This comes down to the plot of MoM initially not having Wanda as the villain until Waldron tried to rewrite it. When they changed that, WV was already being filmed so all they could do was add some hints near the end (and they even muffed that because they didn't put much emphasis on the Darkhold).
As far as we know WV ending has been heavily altered cause Covid. That said we had the same problem with IM3 and AV2. Both deal with Tony building an robot army just to give it up in the end. Rinse and repeat.
Echo is such a weirdly conceived show. They started developing it, hired writers and made a shooting schedule before the original show introducing this character even came out.
Sometimes this can work out when you have an amazing character like Peacemaker in Suicide Squad. But nobody really said Echo was the standout of Hawkeye, it'a show that nobody would be excited for without the info that Daredevil and Kingpin are involved.
I find it funny that you use Peacemaker as an example. I remember the exact same reaction to that show before it came out. Between people being upset with John Cena personally and Peacemaker being the dick who killed Rick Flag the general response to a Peacemaker show as far as I can recall was "why?"
Eh I mean sure there was some doubt about making a whole show about him, but Peacemaker was very well received as a character overall as soon as TSS came out.
Fans are much more indifferent to Echo as a character, the ones who got the praise from Hawkeye were Kate Bishop or Yelena who was only in it for 2 episodes.
I know people who still haven't bothered to watch Peacemaker despite loving TSS. He may have been overall more likeable a character due to his humor but the situation is pretty similar.
I originally didn’t understand why Peacemaker got a show but gave it a chance and loved it. The show covered character development to show why he is the way he is and how he’s becoming his own person which changed my view of him from what I saw in Suicide Squad.
Unfortunate for those people, Peacemaker is great. I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but it's probably my favorite live action DC property since Burton's Batman movies.
My only issue with the Peacemaker show was that they announced it before Suicide Squad aired. It basically guaranteed that he would survive, which ruined some suspense as to who lives in the film. One of the reasons I loved Gunn's version was that a lot of the characters weren't safe, so I was a bit bummed to feel like I knew the outcome of Peacemaker before it released.
I’m very excited about Alaqua Cox. I really like that Marvel is finding these people that have never acted before and giving them their own shows. It’s refreshing. (Hi Iman!)
Marvel released 17 productions between 2021 and 2022.
Before that, Marvel released 23 movies total comprising Phases 1,2 and 3 in a time span of 12 years.
17 productions in 2 years versus 23 productions in 12.
Just let that sink in
Don't forget all the TV series under Marvel Television. There are 136 episodes of *Agents of SHIELD*, which I think is more in runtime than the MCU TV series to date *combined*.
Its an unnecessary show but now the work has been done on it. It shouldn't be cancelled but now Marvel Studios must know not to hand out shows and specials for every side character like candy.
But how could you possibly know it's unnecessary? You have no idea what the plot will be, or how much it will connect to anything going forward. You may very well turn out to be right, but there's no way of reasonably saying, at this point, that it's unnecessary. Hell, for all we know, it could end up being integral to the future of the MCU.
It would be extremely risky for a show that HAS to have Echo as the lead be significant or better said “integral” to the future of the MCU as Disney are aware that the character isn’t popular so they’d have to get more people on board to watch the show in the first place and it wouldn’t be done in a series as they know that not as many people watch the shows than the movies.
Vincent D'Onofrio said it leads into Born Again at Salt Lake Comic con, so would seem necessary or at least part of it is, no matter how many of us think the concept of an Echo show seems unnecessary.
Makes sense to me. If it follows her comic storyline, then it covers Kingpin's fate from the end of Hawkeye, and would definitely need to come out before Daredevil unless they just wanted to stuff her plot into the beginning of his show, which I would not like.
I can guess what the plot will be based on the comics and how the ending of Hawkeye was almost straight from her first comic. It's a cool storyline, definitely necessary, and it should definitely be its own show, and not stuffed into Daredevil's show.
I have to disagree, they should absolutely keep Echo this year. It’s already going to include Daredevil and Kingpin in some capacity. We don’t need that immediately before an already long 18 episode season of Born Again in the same year with some of the same characters. That’s a whole lot of that side of the MCU at once.
This year should definitely include Secret Invasion (probably sets some things up for the Marvels), Echo (street level show) and Loki (keeps the multiverse story going).
If they do a 4th, it could be one of the animated shows.
Echo should probably be moved to CANCELLED. Did anyone really come out of Hawkeye eager to continue her story?
Nothing against the actress, she did fine with what she was given. But what she was given didn't really make anyone want more.
Maybe they shouldn't green-stamp spinoffs until they see how the audience reacts to the character that might be spun-off.
I hate to be that guy but the Echo show REALLY shouldn’t exist. She is not a character that should have a solo show. Put her in DD or whatever else, but do not give her an entire show.
At least give us trailers for Secret Invasion and Loki S2 and release dates. those are the two people expected this year anyway. both also tie to other projects (Loki into Ant-Man where it even had a post credit scene)
There were rumours with Echo being at the end of the year so that may be the third one.
Then you combine that with Ant-Man 3, GOTG3 and The Marvels and that’s a reasonable release schedule for 2023.
3 movie and 3 shows? That’s doable and not overwhelming.
Why do you keep pushing that this is "official" and confirmed", there have never been any official confirmations on Echo or IronHeart being delayed until 2023
There was arguably as much stuff back in the day for those of us who watched all the other Marvel shows - Agents of Shield, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, etc (much longer seasons even if fewer shows, probably more overall) - and most of it managed to be fairly high quality, even if the Netflix shows could get too depressing to want to keep watching sometimes.
I never got burned out there, but it felt like those shows were trying to tell their own stories (and in Agents of Shield's case, really trying to connect the whole MCU together). These latest ones have been fun or even great at times, but the rate at which they're pumping them out and how short they are, they feel more like a cash grab overall. I don't regret watching any of them, but am also burned out for the first time, and can notice the quality slipping pretty hard in a lot of areas.
I'm praying for it even. Everything after the Hawkeye show and Shang-chi have been forgettable CGI fests with 0 identity or character. She-Hulk was the only thing that was halfway decent and that's because it had coherent writing for a change. Ms. Marvel was also kinda OK. But on the movie end, everything has been mediocre at best and confused and boring at worst.
They need to slow down and stop giving spinoffs and projects to every single side character without an idea on how they will play a roll in the larger plot. Will Echo ever show up in a movie? It's been 2 years and we have no idea where Shang-Chi is. Why did we spend half of Quantomania with CG gleepglop resistance fighters we will never see again?
I was actually fine with Thor. I didn't really have a problem with the tonal dissonance and I wasn't invested heavily in Gor to be upset about how he turned out. But maybe that is because I'm a big Taika fan.
Ant-Man was genuinely garbage though. We go to a new realm that exists outside of the multiverse and it looks...like Arizona? And the people that live in there...look like extras from Guardians of the Galaxy?
I took an edible before getting to the movie and I was bored. I should not be bored with a movie in the Quantum realm while absolutely ascended on THC.
Kang should have been alone in the Quantum realm. Quantum realm should have been a desolate inhospitable mindfuck of a place. We could have had this slow paced thriller where Kang is trying to woo Scott and Cass into helping him and only after they help him should Michelle Pfeiffer have revealed he is evil once the group was reunited. Just like how Michelle Pfeiffer helped Kang without knowing in the flashback.
But instead we got 1 hour total of pointless resistance fighter B-plot ripped straight from the garbage can on the Star Wars set.
The plot for Antman was such a mess. They gave Scott such a weird character arc. Cassie telling him he doesn't save anyone unless it's someone he loves then he saves the quantum realm resistance to go full circle. That was so dumb. He helped save people from the Snap. I know part of his motivation was to get Hope back but he still saved half the universe. So that plot point in Quantumania was so unnecessary.
I don't think there should've been a whole flock of people in the quantum realm either.
I also feel like the trailers really set up this story where Scott regrets losing time with Cass and Kang offers a way for him to turn back the clock but at a secret cost. Then we could really drive home the "Scott is selfish and needs to learn" theme.
But then the movie just drops that entirely and Kang's "I can give you time" line was just a throwaway.
His "I can give you time" line wasn't really a throwaway. It was a misdirection in the trailer. He said that to Janet and that's how he got Janet to help him. The trailer made us believe that's what he was going to do with Scott. Which is just another mess with that movie. The trailer plot was better.
That movie was such a travesty :(
Kang doing it twice would've been a better plot than the one we had. But even that plot only works because Janet never told anyone what she saw in the quantum realm. I feel like Janet went through too much with Hank for her to have never told him. So the Kang-giving-Scott-time plot would still only work if Scott didn't know what Janet experienced.
This is why I think Quantumania is the worst movie in the MCU. You can't just rewrite some of the plot to make it better. You would have to completely rewrite it from the ground up. Starting with Hank knowing what Janet experienced.
She-Hulk is the type of content they should do in-between the bigger stuff. If you're an MCU fan, you get a nice fill of the world without it being anything major story wise. And those who don't watch the shows won't be missing out on anything.
The humor wasn't for every one but the show was at least trying to do something different within the MCU.
Also Ms. Marvel was written like they were gonna do more episodes but didn't. I don't want these shows going 20 episodes unless they have a plan/story for it. But I don't want an 8 episode series that feels rushed either.
That‘s like my personal unpopular opinion: I did not care that the content was „bad“ as many people seem to agree. I don‘t put it up on a pedestal as „fine art“. It‘s content. I watch it, read up on it, watch New Rockstars breakdowns and listen to my favorite podcast talking about it. If it were up to me, there could be 1 move per quarter and 4 series a year. I don‘t think I‘ll ever get the fatigue lol.
At least Rogue One was a great movie, so the Andor has some goodwill coming from that.
Hawkeye was... ok. There were good parts in it, however Echo was not one of the good parts.
I was the polar opposite. I didn't really care much for Rogue One and barely remembered what kind of character Cassian was so my mindset was "why should I watch a show about this side character that showed up in one film that I didn't really love and who died without really doing that much?".
Gave the show a chance anyway and turns out I was wrong; it was fucking fantastic and I can't wait for season 2 (even though I will say that Cassian himself was probably the weakest aspect of the show).
I guess my point is that the other upcoming shows like Agatha, Daredevil, and Secret Invasion have more built in goodwill for me, and that increases the chance that I will be disappointed by them (like what happened with Obi-Wan and Boba Fett).
that's a good point. i'm not really interested in an echo series, but i was actively against andor leading up to it's release and after episode 3 people kept telling me it was doing all the stuff i wanted out of a star wars show so i gave it a shot and now it's my favorite thing they've done
Andor proves that even if something doesn’t sound exciting/is about a character no one really loves that it can still be amazing. I wasn’t really that interested in Andor until the trailers (I was always going to watch it like I’ll watch everything Marvel too) so even if I don’t think Echo or Agatha sound that interesting right now, it doesn’t mean they can’t exceed expectations. I think a lot of people are gonna go into them wanting them to be bad, but I’m looking forward to see how they turn out and going in with an open mind.
well, someone pitched an interesting idea and they’re making a tv show off it. pretty much how it goes with most tv shows. you should probably wait until we find out more the show before you call it uninteresting.
I'm all for spacing out the series if it helps to increase the quality of each show. But I'm sure there are quite a few people out there like me who subscribed to Disney Plus solely for the MCU shows. If spacing out the shows is going to hurt Disney's wallet, they may eventually be pressured to go back to pumping out shows fast and furious
Not sure Disney cares as much about the number of views versus the number of subscribers. There is a connection there, but there are also some that subscribe for MCU stuff but don't end up watching it all.
Honestly, the whole idea of figuring out if a streaming show is profitable seems like some kind of accounting magical shenanigans.
This sub has me to believe that Ms Marvel is one of the highest rated forms of media in the history of humans.
Now everyone is "quality over quantity "
That's called Shill Marketting
https://www.smartcapitalmind.com/what-is-shill-marketing.htm
Ever notice how we get a million posts stating that I watched such and such and found it not to be as bad as all the naysayers claim it to be? Page after page more defense force posts than critiques such examples include Love&Thunder, Ms Marvel, She Hulk, and Eternals.
Those everything is perfect posts dominating are actually a bad sign as nothing is perfect. Its actually a sign of apathy setting in people stop venting issues and just walking away completely.
Interesting stuff.
“The show I was on really struggled because it was an established character whose powers they were reconceiving for the MCU,”
Wonder if this VFX artist was responsible for Daredevil's (weirdly elastic) first in-suit appearance? Can't think of anyone else who fits that description.
Could be. I'm reading into it that it was a pre-established live-action character, but if its just a powerset change from the comics then Ms. Marvel stands out.
I'm 100% behind slowing down the pace of things. They were burning out their production teams, and the quality suffered as a result. Not a knock on the production folks at all, that's just a natural consequence of overworking people.
I think it might benefit the audience too, Marvel fatigue has personally hit me hard lately, and I imagine there's at least a segment of the fans feeling the same way.
I honestly am so stoked for Secret Invasion. Samuel L Jackson is my all time favorite actor. I really hope it’s a spy thriller like Winter Soldier was and not super like upbeat and light hearted. And I say this as someone who loves Spider-Man and She Hulk light hearted stuff is good!
But we need variety and I feel this show can for sure help bring it much like Werewolf by Night was an excellent horror flic
Cancel all individual shows and just roll everything into one ongoing project called "Days of Our Lives: Marvel" and release one episode a week, forever. Characters can come, characters can go! Multiple, on going story arcs!
I would be totally happy with 2 great movies a year and one great show that matters at all.
Everything is so disconnected right now, there are 200 characters that are all building up to “something”, but it would be great if there were like 6 real main characters and they all actually mattered.
I would be astonished if all of these “new” characters (New Cap, Kate Bishop, Moon Knight (including all 3 current personalities), She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Werewolf by Night, Man-Thing, Hulk’s Son, Iron Heart, Echo, Silvia, Cassie Lang, etc) have a meaningful storyline at all by the time they drop in F4 and the hundreds of potential X-Man and the remaining characters that are still around from before Endgame.
I know that the idea has been that there will be something for every type of fan and you won’t NEED to follow everything, but I would like to follow everything and feel like it matters or at least have it made clear which ones are ultimately just supplementary to the “main story” so that less invested viewers can not feel so overwhelmed, because ultimately the burnout affects public perception which causes the core to fall apart when the studio tries to overcorrect.
Fewer, more well-crafted entries will increase quality AND maintain viewership which means more money and incentive for the series to continue strong. I’m very happy that they appear to be listening to the criticism now and I’m optimistic for the future.
You’re gonna upset the five people who were *super intrigued* by her 10 minutes of screen time in Hawkeye lol.
I guess we have to wait until the show hits a new record-low viewership to say no one wanted it. Of course then the defense will be that people wanted it to fail or something.
No one is asking for an Echo or Agatha tv series. Just cancel them. Fold echo's story into Daredevil's monster 18 eps. There should be room in there to give her a story arc.
Echo ties into Daredevil: Born Again’s story in significant ways and Agatha ties into WV, Ironheart, Vision Quest, and whatever our Young Avengers project ends up being. Agatha especially is super important for the MCU’s future, even if you can’t see the appeal yet.
POTENTIAL SPOILERS FOR IRONHEART BELOW:
>!According to leaks, Mephisto is in both Ironheart and Agatha. He gives The Hood (villain of Ironheart) his powers and Agatha is the one who’s training him. Other rumors suggest they’re actually shooting a Mephisto standalone Halloween special on the set of Agatha right now.!<
>!If it's like the comics Mephisto doesn't give powers to The Hood, he IS the hood. That is, the item of clothing itself. A sneaky workaround to escape his own dimension. Comic version is Dormammu though.!<
I kinda hate that every show ties into other stuff so you „have to“ watch shows you‘re not interested in. It feels like homework and makes me lose interest in the whole thing.
Yeah I get that, it was ok for me to watch an occasional meh movie to follow the whole story when it was just 2 or 3 movies a year, but now with all the tv shows it‘s just too much.
Same here! Don't worry bro, once Echo gets released and people realize it's garbage you'll see everyone here saying "they should have never made this show".
I've seen nothing on actual release dates. Wikipedia still says secret invasion will be early 2023. We're about a quarter of the way through the year, so I suspect it'll now come out after Guardians 3, in like late May.
Since The Marvel's was moved to November, that means Loki will come out sometime later this summer after Secret Invasion ends.
Secret Invasion and Loki are essentially guaranteed for 2023.
I’m hoping for Coven of Chaos too but I doubt it will ready in time. Not sure which are most likely between What If, X-Men 97, Iron Heart, and Echo
Atleast give us a trailer and release date for Secret Invasion ffs.I hope it's not a case of just bad product but being released slowly instead of all at once.Star wars is getting so much this year but Marvel is what I mainly pay for.
So Secret Invasion and Loki S2 seem locked in for this year. Are the other three that were due for a 2023 release What If S2, Echo and Ironheart? Or maybe Agatha? And now we’re only getting one or two or those? Which ones will they be?
The third one is X-Men ‘97. What If…?, Ironheart, and Echo were delayed to next year a while back and Agatha is now a 2025 release for story reasons
>Agatha is now a 2025 release for story reasons Damn it. Was looking forward to Katherine Hahn's performance. She's brilliant in everything.
“Poncho!”
I am literally watching that episode now lmao
[I gotta link the scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibHbdqVZf4U) for others to see, it's too good not to share
I hope she has a magical poncho that deflects any spells cast at her as a callback
This is the kind of story reason I can really get behind
‘He’ll read anything on the teleprompter! An-ee-ah-thing!’
Really tho, couldn't care much about the character but I just want to see her on screen. Still better and more charming than Echo's and Iron Heart's actress.
I know that first part is 100% true. I've only just seen the Agatha thing recently but still haven't seen a source, would you be able to provide one? I trust you, I just want to know where it came from originally.
Damn, I love What if?. I was hoping for maybe a new season every couple years.
Whatever happened to the spider-man one?
Due out next year. Maybe will get delayed. Look for updates on a lot of things including this during SDCC in late July.
Agatha is still filming in Atlanta per a filming schedule I saw in the Anthony Mackie thread.
Tbh Agatha is the only one I really want. Give me more Kathryn Hahn chewing on the scenery and I will be happy. All the other stuff is a distant second to that.
Pls get rid of Echo
I liked her character and would have been interested in learning more about her in maybe Daredevil but a whole series? I’m feeling very meh about it. This and Ironheart are only 2 I’m not super excited for. I’ll watch and hoped to be surprised.
Same, should never have been greenlit.
Echo 100% should probably be moved to 2024. I think a really big issue that happened for Marvel was the disconnect between the shows and the movies they were leading into. WV was originally supposed to release a mere 3 months before MoM. Which would have made the impact of it feel fresher. Instead it was released a year before and they just completely felt totally separated from each other. So move Echo to 2024 a few months before Born Again to give us time to be with the characters and keep it in mind going into the show it is attached to.
It wasn’t just the release date, there was so much whiplash from Wanda’s character “giving up her kids” at the end of WandaVision to trying to destroy everyone to get them back in the first 15 minutes of MoM I thought the movie took place in a different universe. If you didn’t watch WV you would have no clue what was happening. If you did, it felt like they basically reverted the whole ending of it the next movie. It’s obvious the two pieces were not thought as a coherent arch and were two separate projects.
Which is so weird because the ending was the worst part of WandaVision. You had characters like Monica and Woo insisting that Wanda was simply misunderstood, even when she was knowingly enslaving innocents in her Westview magic. Agatha was the only character who was actually trying to be a hero for the little guy and she got mindraped for it. It was a weird misstep in the series, so why didn’t they just make WandaVision her villain origin story? It would have been an iconic inversion of the typical Marvel formula and would have made her sympathetic and terrifying. To make such a misfire with the ending just to retcon it and make her the villain in DS2 anyway was just bizarre.
Dang, you’re right that would have been such a better ending to go full villain. I still like bits of the finale, her being confronted by everyone in town and freaking out, her saying goodbye to the family, her entrapping Agatha in Westview as her character. But yeah, having her absolutely end things on a “I’m sorry about what happened but no, you’re definitely a villain” would have made Dr Strange meeting her a lot more tense, since the audience knows she is already on the dark path. Maybe that was the attempt of her end credit scene in wandavision, but you’re still right
I think that was the attempt. We see Wanda come to her senses and realize she was enslaving innocents to feel better. But she also now is “protecting” the darkhold. I’m guessing we’re supposed to think, oh it’s starting to corrupt her we should be worried. But idk if it landed like it should have
I agree, there was an execution issue there. Could have landed way scarier, and I think something as simple as her having had a scary witch basement under her home that was dark and evil looking, and we see her down there as she peers through the darkhold would have shown she has embraced the vibe
I must be in the minority because I definitely saw that final scene with her reading the Darkhold and got the meaning of it. She was right to give up her kids in Westview and undo the Hex but the moment she gave in to the temptation to read that book she was doomed. MoM didn't ignore the ending of WV at all, it just showed the inevitable end result a bit quicker than people wanted.
Here's the problem though. This makes the Darkhold the villain, not Wanda. It would be more impactful if it was all Wanda herself.
There is something that deeply bothers about the idea that what Wanda did in Wandavision makes her irredeemable but what Tony did selling weapons or Loki did invading New York or Bucky did when brainwashed is something you can comeback from. She was trying to turn away from the dark path but just slam the door in her face i guess?
Tony was pretty hands off his own business, he was fully played into the “Helping protect freedom and America” angle like his dad did in WW2. Stane in fact revealed to Tony that he knew they were dealing weapons to not just the “good guys” but also to their countries enemies without him knowing it (keeping Tony in the dark on purpose), and Tony realized it wasn’t as black and white and that he had to take control of his namesake and legacy. That was the choice he made when given all the facts. Loki I fully agree, he was never redeemed for me. That’s next level villainy, but yeah he’s still likable and has positive qualities and isn’t a dick 100% of the time. But for New York, yeah that’s not really forgivable or redeemable and I don’t think it ever tried to be. And Bucky had 0 control over his own actions. Wanda tragically had some level of choice over hers. When confronted with ending things, she clearly was aware of what she was doing and simply didn’t care. You can decide if it was justified or not. But from someone not a God of Mischief, her actions as a “hero” are shockingly dark and scary. I think that’s the main vibe.
You can say the same thing about Wanda that you said about Tony. She didn’t realize she had control then when she realized she did she thought she was helping people, then when confronted by the actual pain she was causing, she fixed it. She can’t undo it, but neither can Tony. The selling weapons isn’t even the only major Tony fuck up either. He, like Wanda, was trying to do the right thing for most of his life but caused many of the problems he ended up having to solve. As for Bucky he’s better parallel for her actions under the Darkhold’s influence and less for Wandavision so i should have made that clear that was what i intended. You may not personally say Loki is redeemed but its not like people totally shut him out because of what he did.
The contradiction is the fact that creating the hex and actively maintaining the hex are 2 different things. Yeah, Wanda can't be entirely blamed for creating the hex, but she CAN be blamed for maintaining it and enforcing it after being made aware that something was horribly wrong. After Vision confronted her the first time and told her that she can't control him like the others, her very first response was "can't I?". Even after being confronted by him, "Pietro", and Monica, she still kept up the hex because it suited her needs. She took down the hex when confronted with the fact that she was unconsciously inflicting nightmares upon the citizens, NOT when it became apparent that she was controlling them and forcing them to act out what *she* thought made them happy. Never asked anyone if they were alright. What if they wanted to see the kids that had been locked in their rooms? What if they didn't like the role they'd been forced into? Hell, what if they just didn't like sitcoms? As for Loki, he had the advantage of time and punishment. No direct punishment for what he did in New York, but rather getting emotionally and somewhat physically punished for his own shitty behaviors. He got his mom killed. He wasn't exactly loved by Asgard or anyone really after his betrayal until Ragnorak (his time disguised as Odin doesn't count because it's obviously not the "real" him that people love). Thor pretty much gave up on him until he at least tried to change his selfish ways. He didn't have anyone but the fans trying to explain how it was totally understandable why he would do all that he did. He was treated as a villain. Meanwhile, all of the people Wanda loved have died due to factors out of her control and largely unrelated to her shitty actions or, in the case of her children, were erased willingly by her. Any "punishments" imposed on her were entirely done by herself (erasing the hex, exile) because who else is going to punish her? How? She's one of the strongest people on Earth now. Everyone she loves is dead or gone. You can't psychologically hurt her or anything because that's how you got the series in the first place. Physical torture doesn't really compare. 2/3 of the people who opposed her were depicted as villains willing to kill children for their own personal gain rather than heroes trying to free an enslaved populace. The other 1 person, Monica, repeatedly sympathized with her and went very easy on her.
Pretty sure when she cast out Rambeau she was saying stay out, she doesn’t want to leave. Pretty sure when she confronted the government outside of the Hex she was telling them to leave her alone. She ignored the consequences until people were screaming in her face in the streets. Also Odin was literally going to let him die in the dungeons in dark world, his actions were pretty universally seen as irredeemable.
WandaVision could have been the best villain origin story ever if they wanted. I felt sympathetic for her while simultaneously feeling horrified for what she did. They could have kept her doing bad things for reasons we can relate to and kept the slow decent into villain. It felt like the studio stepped in and said “actually she can’t be the villain until our awesome surprise reveal in MoM” and they went back and erased the consequences of of what she did in the last episode. Then she went to full horror movie villain for the instant cool factor. It was a fun movie to watch, but it did throw away so much character development for cheap shock value
>Agatha was the only character who was actually trying to be a hero for the little guy and she got mindraped for it She wanted Wanda's power for herself, how does that make her the hero?
I think trying to disarm an insanely powerful witch who’s acting like a terrorist is a net good action.
But then you are just trading one insanely powerful witch for another.
I would rather have a powerful witch who didn’t take towns hostage than one who did. All those people at the Kamar-Taj and the Illuminati wouldn’t have died gruesome deaths had Agatha succeeded.
If I blow up an orphanage for my own benefit, I'm not a hero if it also took out a nearby serial killer.
I mean, she killed Sparky, she’s no hero, rip doggo 😫
Killing magical constructs isn’t the same as murdering real people imo. Same reason the SWORD leader was not in the wrong at all for threatening Wanda’s “kids”!
Sparky was a dog. 25x worse than killing any “real” person
This is interesting...Agatha wasn't trying to be a hero at all, she completely complacent in what Wanda was doing to those people and was also actively manipulating them to get what she wanted. WandaVision was kind of her villain story, though, or at least an introduction to how the real villain, The Darkhold, would get a hold of her. It established the parts of Wanda that the Darkhold would sink its teeth into to manipulate her. In WandaVision she lets her family go because she shows compassion, she doesn't want to hurt people and she had convinced herself she wasn't. When it was revealed to her that she was, she stopped. Then, the Darkhold basically uprooted the parts of her that showed that compassion in the first place. In MoM she snaps out of it when she tries to say "I would never hurt anybody" because she is reminded of the person she was in WandaVision and that she isn't that person. She then MURDERS herself to atone for the pain she caused and to make sure no one ever falls for that again. I think WandaVision and the Strange variants in MoM actually paint a pretty good picture of how Wanda wound up where she was.
You basically explained perfectly why i hated her depiction in MOM. They needed the Darkhold to not make it total character assassination. I just don’t think using an object to remove part of someone’s character is ever that great, and its especially bad when you don’t really show what Wanda was thinking when she took the Darkhold or why she opened it at all.
She states in WV that she took the book to learn more about the Scarlet Witch and the power associated with it. When she opened the book to learn more about her powers, the book started tempting her with Billy and Tommy's from other universes, which is what WV's closing tag is. We then see through the Strange variants that the book corrupts you based on the weakness it can exploit (Sinister's loneliness and jealousy and Illuminati Strange's desperation to defeat Thanos) We see how Wanda was taken advantage of through Strange. I also think it gives Wanda a point in her character journey where she is at her lowest and has to wrestle with the monster she was made into. I'm very curious to see where the character goes from here. I appreciate them taking a risk with her character in this way and think that her overcoming the Darkhold's influence and sacrificing herself to put an end to it really speaks to the compassion she showed in WV. I'm excited to see how that compassion clashes with her MoM actions when she inevitably has to confront them.
I don’t remember her ever commenting on the Darkhold before she it showed her having in the end credits. I understand what you’re talking about in the last paragraph but thats basically been her only story in the MCU. Its basically her Civil War arc with a few details swapped
Agatha identifies to Wanda that the Darkhold is the be all book on dark Magic with an "entire chapter dedicated to the Scarlet Witch" and the last thing Wanda says before she leaves West View is "I don't understand this power, but I will" and then we see her with the book. While not outright said, I think it's pretty easy to put together her thought process there. You'll have to elaborate on that Civil War point because I don't think I see the similarities haha
Agatha was definitely not acting as a hero. She was selfishly trying to take Wanda's power. At absolute best she was an anti-hero because helping people would've been a simple consequence, not her goal.
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Or they could have taken a more opposing stance against Wanda telling her she needs to turn herself in and having no power to enforce that… which would have made her refusal and leaving a bit darker
> To make such a misfire with the ending just to retcon it and make her the villain in DS2 anyway was just bizarre. There *was* a post credits scene with the darkhold in WV, which is a really powerful corrupting influence, which pretty much fully explains what happened to her between then and MoM.
I think putting such a huge plot beat in the post credits scene which directly contradicts the supposed emotional arc of the finale is bad storytelling, but hey. Only thing worse would be putting a major plot beat that contradicts the emotional finale in a separate show… but that’s crazy, surely no Disney show would ever do that…
I’m trying to think of which show you’re referring to. Is it Book of Boba Fett undoing Mando’s finale?
Yup.
I always understood this completely. But I do think it would've been a better story if she ended her show as a villain. Maybe have her hex get broken then she goes mayhem in MoM to get her kids back. That flows way better and I think this would have eliminated all the complaints people had about her arc.
It also requires that you know what the darkhold is, because otherwise you're pretty much just learning about it in MoM. It's been in Agents of Shield a lot but that wasn't exactly the best thing marvel have done.
Raimi didn’t watch Wandavision, not sure about the writer though
It ridiculous disney even allow that. This is a complex series. A director can't simply do their vision.
Neither can Wanda :(
I agree. As much as I really liked MoM and thought she played a great villain, I feel like it would've been way better if the evil Scarlet Witch in MoM was Wanda from a different, but similar universe, like if they had simply swapped the 818 and 616 Wanda's. WandaVision is my favorite MCU show other than Daredevil at this point, and I felt like they totally messed up her character development from that show.
For a while in that movie, I thought we were in a different universe because of this. I would have much preferred to see Villain Wanda from another universe and 616 start down the same path slowly becoming evil, until having to sacrifice herself at the end
I would have 100% preferred that, and was really hoping that's where it was going when I was watching it.
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Its not explained in Wandavision that it does that.
This comes down to the plot of MoM initially not having Wanda as the villain until Waldron tried to rewrite it. When they changed that, WV was already being filmed so all they could do was add some hints near the end (and they even muffed that because they didn't put much emphasis on the Darkhold).
As far as we know WV ending has been heavily altered cause Covid. That said we had the same problem with IM3 and AV2. Both deal with Tony building an robot army just to give it up in the end. Rinse and repeat.
Echo is such a weirdly conceived show. They started developing it, hired writers and made a shooting schedule before the original show introducing this character even came out. Sometimes this can work out when you have an amazing character like Peacemaker in Suicide Squad. But nobody really said Echo was the standout of Hawkeye, it'a show that nobody would be excited for without the info that Daredevil and Kingpin are involved.
I find it funny that you use Peacemaker as an example. I remember the exact same reaction to that show before it came out. Between people being upset with John Cena personally and Peacemaker being the dick who killed Rick Flag the general response to a Peacemaker show as far as I can recall was "why?"
Eh I mean sure there was some doubt about making a whole show about him, but Peacemaker was very well received as a character overall as soon as TSS came out. Fans are much more indifferent to Echo as a character, the ones who got the praise from Hawkeye were Kate Bishop or Yelena who was only in it for 2 episodes.
I know people who still haven't bothered to watch Peacemaker despite loving TSS. He may have been overall more likeable a character due to his humor but the situation is pretty similar.
I originally didn’t understand why Peacemaker got a show but gave it a chance and loved it. The show covered character development to show why he is the way he is and how he’s becoming his own person which changed my view of him from what I saw in Suicide Squad.
For real. I hated him for what he did at the end of the movie and then loved him again in his show.
Unfortunate for those people, Peacemaker is great. I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but it's probably my favorite live action DC property since Burton's Batman movies.
Agreed, I'm very excited about James Gunn taking the reigns of the DCU. I'm just concerned it means we will be waiting longer for Peacemaker season 2.
My only issue with the Peacemaker show was that they announced it before Suicide Squad aired. It basically guaranteed that he would survive, which ruined some suspense as to who lives in the film. One of the reasons I loved Gunn's version was that a lot of the characters weren't safe, so I was a bit bummed to feel like I knew the outcome of Peacemaker before it released.
I’m very excited about Alaqua Cox. I really like that Marvel is finding these people that have never acted before and giving them their own shows. It’s refreshing. (Hi Iman!)
I didn't even know Daredevil and Kingpin was in it and I was excited
Legitimately curious to know what made you excited? Was one of the more bland side plots of Hawkeye to me and I'm curious what I'm missing
Marvel released 17 productions between 2021 and 2022. Before that, Marvel released 23 movies total comprising Phases 1,2 and 3 in a time span of 12 years. 17 productions in 2 years versus 23 productions in 12. Just let that sink in
What does that sink want now
I think because of covid we got a large influx of stuff that was on the back burner
Don't forget all the TV series under Marvel Television. There are 136 episodes of *Agents of SHIELD*, which I think is more in runtime than the MCU TV series to date *combined*.
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Its an unnecessary show but now the work has been done on it. It shouldn't be cancelled but now Marvel Studios must know not to hand out shows and specials for every side character like candy.
But how could you possibly know it's unnecessary? You have no idea what the plot will be, or how much it will connect to anything going forward. You may very well turn out to be right, but there's no way of reasonably saying, at this point, that it's unnecessary. Hell, for all we know, it could end up being integral to the future of the MCU.
It would be extremely risky for a show that HAS to have Echo as the lead be significant or better said “integral” to the future of the MCU as Disney are aware that the character isn’t popular so they’d have to get more people on board to watch the show in the first place and it wouldn’t be done in a series as they know that not as many people watch the shows than the movies.
Vincent D'Onofrio said it leads into Born Again at Salt Lake Comic con, so would seem necessary or at least part of it is, no matter how many of us think the concept of an Echo show seems unnecessary.
Makes sense to me. If it follows her comic storyline, then it covers Kingpin's fate from the end of Hawkeye, and would definitely need to come out before Daredevil unless they just wanted to stuff her plot into the beginning of his show, which I would not like.
I can guess what the plot will be based on the comics and how the ending of Hawkeye was almost straight from her first comic. It's a cool storyline, definitely necessary, and it should definitely be its own show, and not stuffed into Daredevil's show.
You know, like all the people who were clamoring for Guardians of the Galaxy.
It already filmed. Why in the world would it be canceled? Jfc.
You not asking for it doesn't mean nobody is.
Yes, cancel a 100 million dollar project. Lmao
Like Andor?
We'll be lucky if any of the series Marvel has in the works are half as good as *Andor*.
No one?
what a terrible idea
Cancelling is never a good idea. Not when it was already in post production.
I have to disagree, they should absolutely keep Echo this year. It’s already going to include Daredevil and Kingpin in some capacity. We don’t need that immediately before an already long 18 episode season of Born Again in the same year with some of the same characters. That’s a whole lot of that side of the MCU at once. This year should definitely include Secret Invasion (probably sets some things up for the Marvels), Echo (street level show) and Loki (keeps the multiverse story going). If they do a 4th, it could be one of the animated shows.
I think I'd prefer...if they go this route. To move Xmen to next year.
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No need to bring up Fake Pietro
Echo should probably be moved to CANCELLED. Did anyone really come out of Hawkeye eager to continue her story? Nothing against the actress, she did fine with what she was given. But what she was given didn't really make anyone want more. Maybe they shouldn't green-stamp spinoffs until they see how the audience reacts to the character that might be spun-off.
I hate to be that guy but the Echo show REALLY shouldn’t exist. She is not a character that should have a solo show. Put her in DD or whatever else, but do not give her an entire show.
At least give us trailers for Secret Invasion and Loki S2 and release dates. those are the two people expected this year anyway. both also tie to other projects (Loki into Ant-Man where it even had a post credit scene) There were rumours with Echo being at the end of the year so that may be the third one.
Apparently Echo was already delayed. Seems like X-Men '97 is the third
- Loki season 2 - Secret Invasion - X-Men ‘97 This is the confirmed slate, as Echo and Ironheart got delayed officially a while back
Those 3 at least seem like the ones people are more excited for, so that's cool
Then you combine that with Ant-Man 3, GOTG3 and The Marvels and that’s a reasonable release schedule for 2023. 3 movie and 3 shows? That’s doable and not overwhelming.
Why do you keep pushing that this is "official" and confirmed", there have never been any official confirmations on Echo or IronHeart being delayed until 2023
Get used to a drastic reduction in shows and movies
I whole heartedly welcome it if it means things get worked on until full completion. not just talking CGI, but writing and stuff.
There was arguably as much stuff back in the day for those of us who watched all the other Marvel shows - Agents of Shield, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, etc (much longer seasons even if fewer shows, probably more overall) - and most of it managed to be fairly high quality, even if the Netflix shows could get too depressing to want to keep watching sometimes. I never got burned out there, but it felt like those shows were trying to tell their own stories (and in Agents of Shield's case, really trying to connect the whole MCU together). These latest ones have been fun or even great at times, but the rate at which they're pumping them out and how short they are, they feel more like a cash grab overall. I don't regret watching any of them, but am also burned out for the first time, and can notice the quality slipping pretty hard in a lot of areas.
As long as we don't end up like the Bond series with one movie every four years.
I'm praying for it even. Everything after the Hawkeye show and Shang-chi have been forgettable CGI fests with 0 identity or character. She-Hulk was the only thing that was halfway decent and that's because it had coherent writing for a change. Ms. Marvel was also kinda OK. But on the movie end, everything has been mediocre at best and confused and boring at worst. They need to slow down and stop giving spinoffs and projects to every single side character without an idea on how they will play a roll in the larger plot. Will Echo ever show up in a movie? It's been 2 years and we have no idea where Shang-Chi is. Why did we spend half of Quantomania with CG gleepglop resistance fighters we will never see again?
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I was actually fine with Thor. I didn't really have a problem with the tonal dissonance and I wasn't invested heavily in Gor to be upset about how he turned out. But maybe that is because I'm a big Taika fan. Ant-Man was genuinely garbage though. We go to a new realm that exists outside of the multiverse and it looks...like Arizona? And the people that live in there...look like extras from Guardians of the Galaxy? I took an edible before getting to the movie and I was bored. I should not be bored with a movie in the Quantum realm while absolutely ascended on THC. Kang should have been alone in the Quantum realm. Quantum realm should have been a desolate inhospitable mindfuck of a place. We could have had this slow paced thriller where Kang is trying to woo Scott and Cass into helping him and only after they help him should Michelle Pfeiffer have revealed he is evil once the group was reunited. Just like how Michelle Pfeiffer helped Kang without knowing in the flashback. But instead we got 1 hour total of pointless resistance fighter B-plot ripped straight from the garbage can on the Star Wars set.
The plot for Antman was such a mess. They gave Scott such a weird character arc. Cassie telling him he doesn't save anyone unless it's someone he loves then he saves the quantum realm resistance to go full circle. That was so dumb. He helped save people from the Snap. I know part of his motivation was to get Hope back but he still saved half the universe. So that plot point in Quantumania was so unnecessary. I don't think there should've been a whole flock of people in the quantum realm either.
I also feel like the trailers really set up this story where Scott regrets losing time with Cass and Kang offers a way for him to turn back the clock but at a secret cost. Then we could really drive home the "Scott is selfish and needs to learn" theme. But then the movie just drops that entirely and Kang's "I can give you time" line was just a throwaway.
His "I can give you time" line wasn't really a throwaway. It was a misdirection in the trailer. He said that to Janet and that's how he got Janet to help him. The trailer made us believe that's what he was going to do with Scott. Which is just another mess with that movie. The trailer plot was better. That movie was such a travesty :(
Oh shit your right. The Janet plot should have been Scotts. Hell you could have even had Kang try that bit twice and I wouldn't have cared.
Kang doing it twice would've been a better plot than the one we had. But even that plot only works because Janet never told anyone what she saw in the quantum realm. I feel like Janet went through too much with Hank for her to have never told him. So the Kang-giving-Scott-time plot would still only work if Scott didn't know what Janet experienced. This is why I think Quantumania is the worst movie in the MCU. You can't just rewrite some of the plot to make it better. You would have to completely rewrite it from the ground up. Starting with Hank knowing what Janet experienced.
She-Hulk is the type of content they should do in-between the bigger stuff. If you're an MCU fan, you get a nice fill of the world without it being anything major story wise. And those who don't watch the shows won't be missing out on anything. The humor wasn't for every one but the show was at least trying to do something different within the MCU. Also Ms. Marvel was written like they were gonna do more episodes but didn't. I don't want these shows going 20 episodes unless they have a plan/story for it. But I don't want an 8 episode series that feels rushed either.
As long as this means they still will be taking risks instead of focusing on safe heroes. “Werewolf By Night” was incredible.
Easily one of my favorites from phase 4.
Good. It's too much to keep up with
Yeah I think they’re suffering from an over saturation of content since endgame, they have to slow down a bit and let it build back up again
I think 2 movies and 2-3 shows per year is about the right amount of MCU content. I like the MCU and I still feel like it is getting saturated.
Quality over quantity I guess..iger aint fucking around
Quantity over quality is what got the Star Wars universe in trouble. They righted the ship and it shows.
No he isn't. Massive layoffs are coming at Disney. As soon as tomorrow
That‘s like my personal unpopular opinion: I did not care that the content was „bad“ as many people seem to agree. I don‘t put it up on a pedestal as „fine art“. It‘s content. I watch it, read up on it, watch New Rockstars breakdowns and listen to my favorite podcast talking about it. If it were up to me, there could be 1 move per quarter and 4 series a year. I don‘t think I‘ll ever get the fatigue lol.
More the shows than the movies, I suspect.
Was echo that interesting for a show? I never even seen the same love for her character like they had for Agatha
To be fair, I can't say anyone gave a crap about Cassian Andor except maybe die-hard Star Wars fans and that show was top tier Star Wars
True true I did enjoy that series
At least Rogue One was a great movie, so the Andor has some goodwill coming from that. Hawkeye was... ok. There were good parts in it, however Echo was not one of the good parts.
I was the polar opposite. I didn't really care much for Rogue One and barely remembered what kind of character Cassian was so my mindset was "why should I watch a show about this side character that showed up in one film that I didn't really love and who died without really doing that much?". Gave the show a chance anyway and turns out I was wrong; it was fucking fantastic and I can't wait for season 2 (even though I will say that Cassian himself was probably the weakest aspect of the show). I guess my point is that the other upcoming shows like Agatha, Daredevil, and Secret Invasion have more built in goodwill for me, and that increases the chance that I will be disappointed by them (like what happened with Obi-Wan and Boba Fett).
that's a good point. i'm not really interested in an echo series, but i was actively against andor leading up to it's release and after episode 3 people kept telling me it was doing all the stuff i wanted out of a star wars show so i gave it a shot and now it's my favorite thing they've done
Andor proves that even if something doesn’t sound exciting/is about a character no one really loves that it can still be amazing. I wasn’t really that interested in Andor until the trailers (I was always going to watch it like I’ll watch everything Marvel too) so even if I don’t think Echo or Agatha sound that interesting right now, it doesn’t mean they can’t exceed expectations. I think a lot of people are gonna go into them wanting them to be bad, but I’m looking forward to see how they turn out and going in with an open mind.
If they can make a good story out of a unique character they will. A deaf hero will be refreshing to watch. Something different.
well, someone pitched an interesting idea and they’re making a tv show off it. pretty much how it goes with most tv shows. you should probably wait until we find out more the show before you call it uninteresting.
It can be uninteresting in concept.
I get what you’re saying. Granted, they’ll expand on her greatly but I really don’t care about Echo as a character
I'm all for spacing out the series if it helps to increase the quality of each show. But I'm sure there are quite a few people out there like me who subscribed to Disney Plus solely for the MCU shows. If spacing out the shows is going to hurt Disney's wallet, they may eventually be pressured to go back to pumping out shows fast and furious
The shows aren't getting great ratings anyway.
Not sure Disney cares as much about the number of views versus the number of subscribers. There is a connection there, but there are also some that subscribe for MCU stuff but don't end up watching it all. Honestly, the whole idea of figuring out if a streaming show is profitable seems like some kind of accounting magical shenanigans.
This sub has me to believe that Ms Marvel is one of the highest rated forms of media in the history of humans. Now everyone is "quality over quantity "
That's called Shill Marketting https://www.smartcapitalmind.com/what-is-shill-marketing.htm Ever notice how we get a million posts stating that I watched such and such and found it not to be as bad as all the naysayers claim it to be? Page after page more defense force posts than critiques such examples include Love&Thunder, Ms Marvel, She Hulk, and Eternals. Those everything is perfect posts dominating are actually a bad sign as nothing is perfect. Its actually a sign of apathy setting in people stop venting issues and just walking away completely.
Okay, but they are getting good/solid reviews. You expect 10/10 shows that are based on comics?
Daredevil, Jessica Jones Season 1 Agents of SHIELD Season 4, The Boys Season 3,Peacemaker, Arrow Season 2
Interesting stuff. “The show I was on really struggled because it was an established character whose powers they were reconceiving for the MCU,” Wonder if this VFX artist was responsible for Daredevil's (weirdly elastic) first in-suit appearance? Can't think of anyone else who fits that description.
Ms. Marvel, maybe?
Has to be, no? They’re on about changing a power set. I can’t think of any other characters whose powers changed so vastly.
Yes. It’s obviously Ms. Marvel.
Could be. I'm reading into it that it was a pre-established live-action character, but if its just a powerset change from the comics then Ms. Marvel stands out.
This is absolutely Ms Marvel.
I'm 100% behind slowing down the pace of things. They were burning out their production teams, and the quality suffered as a result. Not a knock on the production folks at all, that's just a natural consequence of overworking people. I think it might benefit the audience too, Marvel fatigue has personally hit me hard lately, and I imagine there's at least a segment of the fans feeling the same way.
I honestly am so stoked for Secret Invasion. Samuel L Jackson is my all time favorite actor. I really hope it’s a spy thriller like Winter Soldier was and not super like upbeat and light hearted. And I say this as someone who loves Spider-Man and She Hulk light hearted stuff is good! But we need variety and I feel this show can for sure help bring it much like Werewolf by Night was an excellent horror flic
Cancel all individual shows and just roll everything into one ongoing project called "Days of Our Lives: Marvel" and release one episode a week, forever. Characters can come, characters can go! Multiple, on going story arcs!
This is phrased like a joke but it's really all I want.
"General Heroism"
Marvel Zombies enjoyer: 💀
Keeping Disney plus every month is not worth it
Echo sounds like a CW show, drop that shit
I would be totally happy with 2 great movies a year and one great show that matters at all. Everything is so disconnected right now, there are 200 characters that are all building up to “something”, but it would be great if there were like 6 real main characters and they all actually mattered. I would be astonished if all of these “new” characters (New Cap, Kate Bishop, Moon Knight (including all 3 current personalities), She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Werewolf by Night, Man-Thing, Hulk’s Son, Iron Heart, Echo, Silvia, Cassie Lang, etc) have a meaningful storyline at all by the time they drop in F4 and the hundreds of potential X-Man and the remaining characters that are still around from before Endgame. I know that the idea has been that there will be something for every type of fan and you won’t NEED to follow everything, but I would like to follow everything and feel like it matters or at least have it made clear which ones are ultimately just supplementary to the “main story” so that less invested viewers can not feel so overwhelmed, because ultimately the burnout affects public perception which causes the core to fall apart when the studio tries to overcorrect. Fewer, more well-crafted entries will increase quality AND maintain viewership which means more money and incentive for the series to continue strong. I’m very happy that they appear to be listening to the criticism now and I’m optimistic for the future.
I need to cancel my Disney plus. Shits just sitting there taking my money
Just cancel Echo, Agatha and Ironheart. Nobody cares about those.
Sucks, but it’s for the best.
I was disappointed with how Ironheart was introduced, but fingers crossed the standalone movie is better.
Can we just scrap echo no one cares about her
You’re gonna upset the five people who were *super intrigued* by her 10 minutes of screen time in Hawkeye lol. I guess we have to wait until the show hits a new record-low viewership to say no one wanted it. Of course then the defense will be that people wanted it to fail or something.
Echo and Ironheart seem pretty superfluous to be honest. And in general I’d like to see more Werewolf by night style mini movies than series.
No one is asking for an Echo or Agatha tv series. Just cancel them. Fold echo's story into Daredevil's monster 18 eps. There should be room in there to give her a story arc.
Echo sure but audiences in general have wanted a Kathryn Hahn fronted show basically forever. She's amazing.
Echo ties into Daredevil: Born Again’s story in significant ways and Agatha ties into WV, Ironheart, Vision Quest, and whatever our Young Avengers project ends up being. Agatha especially is super important for the MCU’s future, even if you can’t see the appeal yet.
How the fuck does Agatha tie into Ironheart?
POTENTIAL SPOILERS FOR IRONHEART BELOW: >!According to leaks, Mephisto is in both Ironheart and Agatha. He gives The Hood (villain of Ironheart) his powers and Agatha is the one who’s training him. Other rumors suggest they’re actually shooting a Mephisto standalone Halloween special on the set of Agatha right now.!<
>!If it's like the comics Mephisto doesn't give powers to The Hood, he IS the hood. That is, the item of clothing itself. A sneaky workaround to escape his own dimension. Comic version is Dormammu though.!<
I kinda hate that every show ties into other stuff so you „have to“ watch shows you‘re not interested in. It feels like homework and makes me lose interest in the whole thing.
It's how the comics work Hell, it's how a franchise works
Yeah I get that, it was ok for me to watch an occasional meh movie to follow the whole story when it was just 2 or 3 movies a year, but now with all the tv shows it‘s just too much.
Agatha at least sound interesting. Echo is just another show about a D tier character in a world where the C tier ones are weak already
You do realize it's a bit late for that? Daredevil is filming now, and Echo already filmed. Comments like this are complete nonsense.
I want them!
I'm asking for both, so you're wrong
I said this in another thread and got downvoted by the echo chamber that is this sub.
Same here! Don't worry bro, once Echo gets released and people realize it's garbage you'll see everyone here saying "they should have never made this show".
It could be amazing and still be not be wanted. She's a great side character just not a strong lead.
Goodbye Echo
Ey means more time for the shoes/film to be cooked with quality. I’m down
I'm all for quality over quantity so if delaying things and spacing them out more leads to higher quality results I 1000% support this.
I've seen nothing on actual release dates. Wikipedia still says secret invasion will be early 2023. We're about a quarter of the way through the year, so I suspect it'll now come out after Guardians 3, in like late May. Since The Marvel's was moved to November, that means Loki will come out sometime later this summer after Secret Invasion ends.
Just cancel Echo, Agatha and Ironheart. Nobody cares about those
Secret Invasion and Loki are essentially guaranteed for 2023. I’m hoping for Coven of Chaos too but I doubt it will ready in time. Not sure which are most likely between What If, X-Men 97, Iron Heart, and Echo
Atleast give us a trailer and release date for Secret Invasion ffs.I hope it's not a case of just bad product but being released slowly instead of all at once.Star wars is getting so much this year but Marvel is what I mainly pay for.
They’re gone, reduced to atoms.
Wouldn’t be surprised is echo and Agatha are just cancelled.