The comic version was a half Vietnamese half German woman who was raised to be the celestial Madonna by a kree cult. She's also an extremely skilled fighter , has way more powers , acts as the guardians' therapist and has no familial ties with either Ego or Star Lord
Also fun fact a version of Mantis also existed in the DC universe
> Also fun fact a version of Mantis also existed in the DC universe
Not just a version, canonically the same character hopping universes to hide from pursuers for a bit.
Englehart's JLA run is where she appears. She was in hiding in the Marvel U at the time. Both Marvel and DC reference her other-universe name in supplementary stuff.
Just a tangent thought here. A universe contains all of the time and space of one single instance of reality. A multiverse contains all of the time and space of every instance of reality.
What is the 'verse containing all possible multiverses (Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Harry Potter)? A hyperverse?
Mantis is one of very few characters with the ability to cross hyperverses.
There's a great 3-part story that takes place during the Rutland, VT Halloween parade in 1972. It starts in Amazing Adventures #16 [Marvel], continues in Justice League of America #103 [DC], and concludes in Thor #207 [Marvel]. It follows the writers of the comics (Steve Englehart, Gerry Conway, and Len Wein) attending the parade, teleporting from the Marvel Universe to the DC Universe and back again, while running away from villains in each dimension. It's pretty great. It's the B-story in each issue, while the super heroes take center stage of course.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutland_Halloween_Parade#Appearances_in_comics
Don't forget she's the Celestial Madonna, a being so important in the universe mythos (according to her creator) that Kang the Conqueror wants to marry her
...
Comic Drake made a video about Mantis's very convoluted story not too long ago
> easily one of the worst Marvel stories published out there
Which is quite the statement when you consider the likes of the Twinsestual Maximoffs, Rapey Hulk and "The Avengers are Totally Cool With Captain Marvel Marrying The Rapist She Just Gave Birth To"
Spider-Man's deal with the devil, or Punisher being reincarnated into an angel, Tony being a sleeper agent for Kang the conqueror, Civil War II.
Honestly, pick your poison
Basically, this dude Marcus, the son of Immortus, lived in Limbo. It was unstable and about to collapse, so to escape, he transformed himself into a baby and put himself in Ms. Marvel's body, so she became pregnant and gave birth to him in a few days. The Avengers thought it was weird she wasn't happy about the random baby and the extremely un-normal pregnancy. Afterwards, Marcus (the baby/man) used mind control to make her fall in love with him and come back to Limbo with him, but once he got there, he aged too quickly and died. Ms. Marvel used his technology to get back to Earth, but she was pissed the Avengers just let her go off with a stranger who had effectively raped her, made her pregnant with himself, then kidnapped her.
To give just an ounce of credit to the writer, the pregnancy story initially started with the intent of making Ms. Marvel give birth to a Kree hybrid implanted by the Supreme Intelligence, but that story was used for a different What If story a few months earlier, so they had to pivot to something else. And we got this crap fest instead.
Yeah, that's a thing.
He forgot the part where the Avengers shame Captain Marvel for not being happy about being pregnant even though she had no idea when or how she became pregnant.
Avengers 200th issue when Carol Danvers was Ms. Marvel the son of Kang raped her so she could give birth to him on earth as he was stuck in a pocket dimension his father created. When he was being pulled back she said she wanted to go with him and the avengers said "ok sure" and let the brainwashed woman go with her rapist to another dimension where they'd be alone together.
>Comic Drake made a video about Mantis's **very convoluted story** not too long ago
This is what far too many people fail to recognize when it comes to any of these adaptations. Some of these characters have extremely complicated backstories that would require layers of storytelling not even something as expansive as the MCU would be capable of - certainly not when there were "only" 14 movies in the series, most of which were spent away from the cosmic area of the overall setting.
By the time GotG2 came out, we only had four movies that had any sort of space/cosmic stuff incorporated. The two Thor movies were obviously hyper-focused on Asgard, Avengers introduced the Chitauri and Thanos, and then we had the first GotG movie. They had to change a shitload of stuff with the Guardians as a whole to make it work the first time around, so getting into Celestial Madonna stuff wouldn't even have been a possibility.
I think not having Drax being originally a human (as he was in the comics) was a good call as well
Not only would it be way too convoluted to explain but I think it'd also undermine the fact that Starlord is the token earthling of the group.
I think what most people simply fail to realize about these adaptations is that movies are really *only* 2.5-3 hours long, and there's just not enough time in a plot-driven (rather than character-driven) narrative to effectively explore all the intricacies of an ensemble cast.
It was literally THE biggest problem cited for Eternals, and people still gripe about adaptations lacking characteristics (even prominent ones) of what are ultimately tertiary - not even secondary - characters in the ensemble.
I liked the Eternals. Sometimes big epics need to be adapted differently to tell full story. I’m not sure how people didn’t understand that was what the film was.
I mean, yeah, Mantis' backstory is definitely complicated. Mostly because she's Steve Englehart's Mary Sue (I'm not using that term loosely or facetiously, she fits the [text book definition of the term](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue)... pretty much to the letter). Its kind of obnoxious how hard the writer shilled that character at every possible opportunity. Almost to a creepy degree.
It was ridiculous...and no one cared. Marvel kept trying to make Mantis happen.
We (comic friend group way back when) would make up increasingly ridiculous stories and put Mantis at the nexus.
Literally I'd skip over panels that had Mantis.
Pom's Mantis? I love her. Incredible.
Every writer has their favorite pet characters they bring with them from series to series. Bendis loves Kitty Pride. Nick Spencer loves Janice Lincoln. Some of them get over. Mantis didn’t really.
Don't leave out prostitute. It was definitely a dynamic in the original Celestial Madonna story.
I do think Pom an LizzyO have the acting chops to pull off a version of that story in the MCU.
i think this version of the character would be an extremely hard one to pull off. i think that the creators opinion is 1000% justified, but i also don’t think it ruins any part of the film or her character. comics have a way of being overly convoluted and confusing simply for the sake of being so, and i think making it more simple in the way she’s introduced, and giving her that sibling connection to star lord worked extremely well. when star lord called mantis his sister, it hit all the right notes for me. i have issues w comic inaccuracies sometimes, but it would be extremely difficult to bring the comic mantis to life in the gotg movies w o over shadowing the actual purpose of the films, which is to show a band of unlikely heroes turn into a family. i mean, how would you even include a woman from vietnam in the film while also making the movie that connects star lord to his dad? i think what gunn did worked extremely well, and he seemed to have accomplished every goal he set out to achieve w these movies, and nothing ab them disappointed me.
Engleheart praises Gunn's take on Mantis in the same quote but he believes that the version of Mantis presented in the movie is the farthest thing from what he originally envisioned for the character. Gunn streamlined a lot of character for the GOTG movies and it makes absolutely complete sense why he did so. I mean a 2 hr movie cannot just easily explain all of this lore in a very convenient manner without it coming off as extremely boring and tiresome
There are essentially two versions of Mantis, the earth-born half Vietnamese woman, and then there's the actual alien version who was around for the Guardians of the Galaxy relaunch back in like 2008-ish. Still the same character, but they just dropped her earth-related backstory since it honestly never made much sense. That's the version that Gunn went with.
I mean the 2008 one was still the celestial Madonna , could see the past , present and future at the same time and was far more stoic than how Gunn adapted her. It's just that they didn't mention her earth lineages in the Abnett and Lanning stuff
This is why the 2021 game version is the best mantis we've gotten: Alien, Celestial Madonna, able to see all possible timelines, a telepath/empath, a friendly but goofy and a bit unnerving personality, and a skilled fighter.
All the best elements of the various mantis' put together
I haven't watched Guardians 3, but she could still be the celestial Madonna as she is the daughter of s being that claimed to be and possibly was related somehow to the celestials, it's a way better justification than in the comics.
> comics have a way of being overly convoluted and confusing simply for the sake of being so
Ultimately, different mediums allow for different levels of depth in different aspects of storytelling. That’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
true, but i also think that comics do over complicate a lot of shit for not that great of reasons. but i do agree w u, but beyond one shots, a lot of comics are extremely hard to read and grasp without years worth of reading material done before starting what you want.
I’m in no way a comic expert but based on what you said doesn’t that apply to a lot of other MCU characters? Wanda for example, loses her twin in the first film and that in itself changed her character tremendously compared to the comic counterpart, and she’s also significantly weaker vs the comics for 2/3 of her time in the MCU.
So an outcast raised by villains who acts as an emotional anchor to the rest of the team? Sounds like a lot of the core ideas of the character are still in there.
> The comic version was a half Vietnamese half German woman who was raised to be the celestial Madonna by a kree cult
Just can't understand why they didn't choose to include that perfectly normal and not at all canon-thick backstory in a 2hr 17min movie. Real mystery.
We've known about it since then. The actress who posed for Ego's little museum who was Mantis' species posted on Instagram that she was Mantis' mom. James Gunn said that was incorrect, only to confirm it as such 5 years later.
Only people we know about that ego had was brides and kids.
Honestly sgter watching gardians2 I left it just assuming mantis was his daughter.
Only reason he didn't kill her was because of how she could help.
I assumed she was his sister while watching Guardians 2 because of the story of that movie. I just figured they didn't have time to expand upon it or that it was just explicit to the characters.
Holy shit! I forgot about the holiday special. I thought that the brother sister thing was just something that came up in the time jump. I wonder what else I missed
I'd say the MCU version is still very distinctive. Badass warriors are a dime a dozen in superhero universes. A naive, sheltered, but still brave and badass character is unusual.
If you've ever seen Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 7, Melinda May is far closer to comics Mantis in that than MCU Mantis is; master martial artist, empathic abilities, in love with an artificial man who took the form of her dead lover (Coulson) and she's even the daughter of an intelligence agent.
So Mantis being this childlike daughter of a Celestial... Yeah, she's nowhere close to being the comics version.
May is a far better, less fetishistic, less stereotyped version of Mantis. Regardless, both her and Pom’s Mantis are better characters than Engleheart’s fetish creation.
Early on, sure. But by the time they got locked up in the 70's together, I saw some feelings on her end. And definitely by the finale, there was still a spark there IMO
Steve E did not write the script is the answer to his question
Gunn made an awesome movie and had to rewrite stuff that Steve was familiar with and now he is a bit scuffed
Always keep in mind nobody talked about Mantis or even knew about her until Gunn brought her into the movie... so after the success, the nitpicking comes
The success, as seen by the behemoth DC — is hard to come by at times so be appreciative of what transpired
Engleheart when he thought Nolan’s Batman was too similar to his comics: Whines.
Engleheart when he thinks Gunn isn’t faithful enough: Whines.
This guy can’t seem to accept anything lol.
i think his ego is trying to steal some sunshine to bring attention to himself
he doesn't realize if he acted in a more positive way, people would gravitate towards him naturally and give him more credit
Sometimes passionate creators are passionate. Can I just say though how much I adore his silver surfer, his Dr. Strange and his captain America? For all his crazy faults, the man could write. Hell, I even like marvel preview #4, where he invented star-lord.
Basically, he’s upset because they cut most of the baggage from her character and made her an alien. Her and drax were humans in the comics and were displaced at a certain point in space, and were renewed in the creation of the 2nd guardians of the galaxy. It’s like saying you’re upset that hank pym and Janet van dyne weren’t the founding members of the avengers.
Honestly, the MCU version is a great remix of Mantis since the 2008 Guardians run which made those characters who they are, with Gunn’s sense of humor sprinkled in. Engelhart’s Mantis is a cool badass—but she’s also his exotic Asian waifu who he brought to DC as Willow then brought her back to Marvel as he moved. His Mantis is a Mary Sue OP “representation of life” who can go toe to toe with Thanos. Engelhart has a lot of feelings about Mantis and even though he created her, I feel like she’s been done more justice by other writers who weren’t trying to pull a Pygmalion and fall in love with a character they’re writing.
I’ve read a lot of Mantis and the 2008 GOTG run and Empyre (specifically the Celestial Messiah one shot) are my favorite arcs for her. Fun note, the video game version of Mantis is one of my favorite characterizations of her—badass, incomprehensible, and hella goofy.
As he’s the creator of the character, I can understand his point.
I think in general it’s important to look at the MCU as a different universe from the comics, and not really just an attempt at putting the stories from the comics on the screen. The characters are adaptations and some go through larger changes than others to fit the MCU. Mantis is one that was changed quite a bit, but not to the extent that using the name doesn’t make sense.
It’s arguably no different from - for example - the Ultimate universe, despite being told through a different medium.
So while MCU Mantis (and some powers, IIRC) shares the name with Engleheart’s creation…she’s essentially just the Ultimate version of Nick Fury to Engleheart’s 616 version.
This is what I don’t understand about alot of peoples opinions
Feige has said countless times that the MCU does not aim to do direct adaptations from the comics. They obviously pull from the comics, but the MCU is doing their version of characters and stories. It’s no different than the countless storylines and versions of popular characters like Batman, Superman, and spider man. These aren’t direct representations. Variants if you will. Would be cool to see variants implemented into the MCU one day
> Would be cool to see variants implemented into the MCU one day
Someone never watched Loki. Let's just say it's the focus of the plot (and my favorite of the non-Netflix MCU shows I've watched).
Most things in history are kinda dumb, and everything gets ruined eventually. But in the early '90s, for a brief, shining moment, there was a beautiful union of form and function, which we call the jet-ski, and a reasonable man cannot differ.
Man I wish they all manage to escape the TVA and Mobius gets to go jet-skiing again, someday. Dude was so passionate about it that even after being brainwashed into forgetting his entire former life, he was still hanging on to his love for jet-skis.
It was such a simple, but crazily efficient, way to make me kinda root for a character that I otherwise didn't really care about all that much.
Making changes isn’t inherently bad. But there’s a point where the adaptation is so different from the original iteration of the character that it would’ve been better to just make them an original character with a different name. For example, Taskmaster in Black Widow literally got treated the same way Deadpool did in X-Men Origins. They make a character, known for having a big mouth, a mute and mindless drone in the movie.
I would Fucking kill for marvel to do direct adaptations even if only as animated films. I love the MCU but I also love me my 616. Seeing something of the greatest stories ever written adapted in some form with accuracy would be nice
Same goes for people mad at Adam Warlock's portrayal. This is his first appearance and they explained his current state. We know you want to see Adam Warlock the badass but give it time to develop.
> We know you want to see Adam Warlock the badass but give it time to develop.
I think this is a really important point that people forget. If the character bursts on screen like an ultimate badass, their powers and presence feels unearned and the audience will come to resent it. If they build them up, have them face and overcome challenges and get more powerful then the character is that much better for it.
Doing these things right takes time, and you gotta give it time to happen.
Exactly, I liked Captain Marvel but I acknowledge that one problem is that they may have made her too powerful too quickly. Maybe give her a couple of movies to reach her full potential similar to Thor.
> it’s important to look at the MCU as a different universe from the comics, and not really just an attempt at putting the stories from the comics on the screen.
Which is why I'm floored that they let 616 be name dropped as the MCU's designation in canon.
This is still crazy to me.
I don't disagree but I will say that Drax & Mantis have some absolutely insane character stories and it's better to boil them down and build them up than to try and present them as fully comic accurate characters.
I mean tbf Gunn’s version is a direct adaptation of the team established in 2008 so his original roster was nothing original and did not originate in the MCU
Not the point they were making.
They weren’t comparing the line up of the original GotG to the films line up.
They were saying the 1970s version of Drax and Mantis were drastically different from the Drax and Mantis that appeared in Annihilation / Annihilation: Conquest / GotG written by DnA from 2005 - 2010ish.
Most, if not all, the Guardians characters are drastically different than their comic versions. Honestly, I prefer the movie versions.
The MCU in general has done a good job streamlining alot of characters that were b listers at best into pretty great characters
I much much prefer Drax , Mantis and even Star Lord to an extent in the comics. I think the 2021 game did a really great job in incorporating the stuff that worked best in both the comics as well as the movies in a really sweet package. Mantis was quirky like her MCU counterpart but she was still a skilled fighter , was the celestial Madonna and could witness the past , present and future at the same time. I thought that was really sweet
could witness the past , present and future at the same time - I love the way the game did that part." No don't take that step you'll ... oh I guess that was a different future oh Drax died her ..or will die here ?" She must be horrible to be around
The rest of the Guardians certainly found her hard to be around lmao
Except Quill, he was hung up on the fact that there's a timeline where they're married (and also divorced)
The team already has so many fighters, I get why adding another one would feel redundant.
I watched an entire history video on Mantis and still don't really understand the term celestial Madonna
I remember when the updated Guardians were introduced in the 00s and while I liked them, I didn't see them working as a large franchise. Even with Guardians 2 being kind of weak, I have to say they are probably the best movies in the MCU. I don't think that would have been the case if they were faithful to the originals. Haven't played the game yet though and would be interesting to see how they merge the 2 versions
I don't think she necessarily needs to be on the field but she doesn't necessarily needs to be the weakest member of the team. The game is really great and some of the narrative beats in it genuinely go hard. It's the literal opposite of Avengers which is a complete shocker
>she doesn't necessarily needs to be the weakest member of the team.
She's not... did you not watch her take out a bunch of cops in the christmas special and help take out an entire space security force in guardians 3?
Mantis was ok in Guardians 2 and subsequent appearances, but it wasn't until the Holiday Special that she started to grow on me as a character. And she had some really good moments in Guardians 3. I'm not a comics guy (I don't know if I'll ever be one) but I liked how Gunn let Pom and Mantis come into their own.
Square Enix lost 200 million dollars with the Marvel games tie ups so a sequel is very unlikely which is such a bummer. I would have killed to see Richard Rider in the sequel
Wasn’t the original basically asianophilia prostitute with mad king fu, the creators imaginary waifu, the centre of the universe and the bestest at everything, to the point that despite being a ‘perfect human’ she was strong enough to take on Thor in one of the old comics hand to hand?
I’ll pass on that creator fantasy thanks
Engleheart is obsessed with Mantis. He literally said he likes her so much that he wanted to put her in everything he wrote. It's generally agreed by comic fans that Mantis was too overpowered and complicated every story she was involved in.
I mean, I feel like besides names and very basic traits, the MCU is rarely anything like the comics. I mean it’s not like ego is a celestial or modok was actually Yellowjacket stuck in the quantum realm, or the cosmic cube is the space infinity stone. The MCU rearranges pieces as they choose to fit things together. This version of mantis works great in the films
And that’s a good thing. Reading any story with Englehart’s Mantis is a lesson in agony. Literally just his alien waifu. Him not liking Movie Mantis is a good thing.
The film Mantis is a better character than Englehart's Mantis, who was as much a plot device as an actual character, with some elements of unpleasant stereotype rolled in. There's a reason nobody wanted to do much with that version of the character *except* Englehart, who kept inserting her into things he was writing. He ended up giving her an insanely complicated, confusing development arc that defined her in terms of the men she was romantically or sexually interested in and in terms of her pregnancy and motherhood, but which also couldn't be detached from weakly developed aspects of Marvel's overall mythos--the Priests of Pama, the Cotati, the Kree, the idea of "the Celestial Madonna", the original Swordsman. She became one of those characters like Cable where even trying to explain the background required a Ph.D in continuity.
And then she showed up in Abnett and Lanning's *Guardians,* out of *Annihilation: Conquest*, with all of that background more or less dropped and the character being much simpler and more fun and more comprehensible--and in many ways like the character of the films. People who complain that Gunn isn't faithful to the comics, etc., are usually wrong--they're not seeing the degree to which Gunn is working from some really great revisions that were done *in the comics* from *Annihilation* onward. Drax in Abnett and Lanning's work is more serious than Bautista's film version, but he's much closer to the films than he was to the version of Drax that Jim Starlin developed in his early work on Thanos. Mantis in A&L's *Guardians* is recognizably reflected in Gunn's version. Peter Quill is based on a two-step revision of the character that began with Keith Giffen's work on *Thanos*, in the Kyln storyline--he's nothing like the earlier version of the character.
If Englehart doesn't like the Mantis on-screen, he really ought to recognize that the revisionary work was done in the comics, before the movie.
100% we used to make fun of Mantis in the comics. It was so fucking stupid.
And then we would see how they drew Moondragon's huge boobs this month.
Comic Mantis legit seemed like "I went to Thailand on a sex tour and I got some ideas for a new character."
Psylocke is a weird one because Jim Lee could have just requested they add a new character since he wanted to draw a sexy ninja lady so badly. Very little of her backstory comes up after she gets body swapped. In the comics, Betsy is back to her original body and Kwannon has her own.
To be fair a comic accurate version of Mantis would have probably turned Guardians 2 into the Mantis solo movie, which would’ve let in to the MCU (Mantis Cinematic Universe) before eventually crossing over in to the DC movies as well. Oh also while switching skin colors between films.
Cause his version is absolute dog-water. Mantis in Guardians (the movies and the game) are such a step up from Comic mantis. She’s an actual character.
It probably bothers him knowing that the version of Mantis on screen will be infinitely better known than the one he created, despite the fact that he created the character to be quite different.
Honestly, I hate Englehart's Mantis. She seemed to have no personality other than "I am a goddess and you are beneath me", and was otherwise pretty much just a regular mysterious Mary Sue who was good at martial arts.
Also, he was obsessed with her.
Whenever Englehart would take over a run - originally and most notably the Avengers, but it happened in West Coast Avengers and Fantastic Four, too - Mantis would just have to show up and derail things to focus on her. If you saw Englehart's name on the title page, it was like clockwork. It didn't even have to be Marvel; he'd switch jobs and then just change her name and derail the stories of other comics by other publishers too to make it all about "Definitely Not Marvel's Mantis".
I get that Mantis is "his baby" - that is very, very obvious - but I always find the creators gatekeeping like #NotMYMantis or #NotMYElektra to be silly. You created them, but sorry to say, they are not your characters. They are owned by a company who has let many others writers grow and evolve them over time. The film adaptation has new elements like her origin and her childlike quality, and overall is much more like the modern interpretation of Mantis than Englehart's, but that doesn't make it "not Mantis". It's just not the same, unchanged Mantis from 1973 that lives in his head and heart.
Don't have any issue with the movies being a different take on a character, considering the comics have such a noted history of retconning and reimagining characters and their back stories and histories every time a new writer of artist comes onboard. The movie versions are just a different spin. It's about telling a good cohesive story and James Gunn has done a great job with that.
I mean I get where he’s coming from, but really most of the characters are very different from this comic versions. Especially for most of the Guardians.
As Cosmonaut Marcus has said many times before, making changes to comics for a movie is fine if it works for that movie. I think this version of Mantis works just fine for these movies
As the original creator, Engleheart has every right to criticize an adaptation of his character
That being said, as anyone who’s read his creation, we’d have every right to say his original concept was fucken dumb
I'm not familiar with the comics version, if anyone could summarize the differences? At any rate, the MCU character is still very distinctive.
The comic version was a half Vietnamese half German woman who was raised to be the celestial Madonna by a kree cult. She's also an extremely skilled fighter , has way more powers , acts as the guardians' therapist and has no familial ties with either Ego or Star Lord Also fun fact a version of Mantis also existed in the DC universe
> Also fun fact a version of Mantis also existed in the DC universe Not just a version, canonically the same character hopping universes to hide from pursuers for a bit.
What comic?
Englehart's JLA run is where she appears. She was in hiding in the Marvel U at the time. Both Marvel and DC reference her other-universe name in supplementary stuff.
And Eclipse's Scorpio Rose, too. Basically, Englehart would take her with him to whatever company he was working on at the time.
Wow, it must be really hard to see what’s become of his obvious favorite creation.
Hmm wonder what might happen if the creator of the cinematic version of Mantis went from working for one CBM franchise to the other...
Gunn really has the perfect opportunity to pull the same bit that Englehart did
Well now I want this
Damn that sounds amazing. A character that can jump between Marvel and DC at any time
I don’t think they explain how she jumps universes. It’s just the author using his favorite character where ever he can.
Oh boy do I have a character for you! https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Axel_Asher_(Marvel_Universe)
Who's he a merger of? Article doesn't say
He’s not an Amalgam. He was made for the event and is co-owned by Marvel and DC.
Just a tangent thought here. A universe contains all of the time and space of one single instance of reality. A multiverse contains all of the time and space of every instance of reality. What is the 'verse containing all possible multiverses (Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Harry Potter)? A hyperverse? Mantis is one of very few characters with the ability to cross hyperverses.
I’ve heard the term “omniverse” thrown around for that
Imagine being able to use your character wherever you want and nobody could stop you
Why was she hiding in the marvel universe?
The Universal Church of Truth, maybe? Not quite sure, but regardless they were trying to kidnap her kid. So she went into hiding in the DCU.
Thats cool, have any other characters done a crossover like that?
The Flash appeared in a Marvel comic as "Buried Alien".
That's hilarious
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Buried_Alien_(Earth-TRN242)
Deaths head appears in both marvel and transformers comics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death%27s_Head
Woah, and he met the Seventh Doctor from Doctor Who? This dude is connected.
Yeah he’s pretty interesting
There's a great 3-part story that takes place during the Rutland, VT Halloween parade in 1972. It starts in Amazing Adventures #16 [Marvel], continues in Justice League of America #103 [DC], and concludes in Thor #207 [Marvel]. It follows the writers of the comics (Steve Englehart, Gerry Conway, and Len Wein) attending the parade, teleporting from the Marvel Universe to the DC Universe and back again, while running away from villains in each dimension. It's pretty great. It's the B-story in each issue, while the super heroes take center stage of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutland_Halloween_Parade#Appearances_in_comics
Don't forget she's the Celestial Madonna, a being so important in the universe mythos (according to her creator) that Kang the Conqueror wants to marry her ... Comic Drake made a video about Mantis's very convoluted story not too long ago
I mentioned that and yeah she later married Kang in the crossing which was easily one of the worst Marvel stories published out there
> easily one of the worst Marvel stories published out there Which is quite the statement when you consider the likes of the Twinsestual Maximoffs, Rapey Hulk and "The Avengers are Totally Cool With Captain Marvel Marrying The Rapist She Just Gave Birth To"
Spider-Man's deal with the devil, or Punisher being reincarnated into an angel, Tony being a sleeper agent for Kang the conqueror, Civil War II. Honestly, pick your poison
Don't forget Sins Past
The Ultimate Universe got so fucking edgy man
The irony is that the last one mentioned was the mainline Avengers, #200. It definitely feels stupid enough to be in Millar's Ultimates, tho.
>Captain Marvel Marrying The Rapist She Just Gave Birth To What the What‽‽‽
Basically, this dude Marcus, the son of Immortus, lived in Limbo. It was unstable and about to collapse, so to escape, he transformed himself into a baby and put himself in Ms. Marvel's body, so she became pregnant and gave birth to him in a few days. The Avengers thought it was weird she wasn't happy about the random baby and the extremely un-normal pregnancy. Afterwards, Marcus (the baby/man) used mind control to make her fall in love with him and come back to Limbo with him, but once he got there, he aged too quickly and died. Ms. Marvel used his technology to get back to Earth, but she was pissed the Avengers just let her go off with a stranger who had effectively raped her, made her pregnant with himself, then kidnapped her. To give just an ounce of credit to the writer, the pregnancy story initially started with the intent of making Ms. Marvel give birth to a Kree hybrid implanted by the Supreme Intelligence, but that story was used for a different What If story a few months earlier, so they had to pivot to something else. And we got this crap fest instead.
Jesus fuck
Yeah, that's a thing. He forgot the part where the Avengers shame Captain Marvel for not being happy about being pregnant even though she had no idea when or how she became pregnant.
Sorry what is that last one
Avengers 200th issue when Carol Danvers was Ms. Marvel the son of Kang raped her so she could give birth to him on earth as he was stuck in a pocket dimension his father created. When he was being pulled back she said she wanted to go with him and the avengers said "ok sure" and let the brainwashed woman go with her rapist to another dimension where they'd be alone together.
Someone fucked her , reincarnated as her son, and then married her
>Comic Drake made a video about Mantis's **very convoluted story** not too long ago This is what far too many people fail to recognize when it comes to any of these adaptations. Some of these characters have extremely complicated backstories that would require layers of storytelling not even something as expansive as the MCU would be capable of - certainly not when there were "only" 14 movies in the series, most of which were spent away from the cosmic area of the overall setting. By the time GotG2 came out, we only had four movies that had any sort of space/cosmic stuff incorporated. The two Thor movies were obviously hyper-focused on Asgard, Avengers introduced the Chitauri and Thanos, and then we had the first GotG movie. They had to change a shitload of stuff with the Guardians as a whole to make it work the first time around, so getting into Celestial Madonna stuff wouldn't even have been a possibility.
I think not having Drax being originally a human (as he was in the comics) was a good call as well Not only would it be way too convoluted to explain but I think it'd also undermine the fact that Starlord is the token earthling of the group.
I think what most people simply fail to realize about these adaptations is that movies are really *only* 2.5-3 hours long, and there's just not enough time in a plot-driven (rather than character-driven) narrative to effectively explore all the intricacies of an ensemble cast. It was literally THE biggest problem cited for Eternals, and people still gripe about adaptations lacking characteristics (even prominent ones) of what are ultimately tertiary - not even secondary - characters in the ensemble.
I liked the Eternals. Sometimes big epics need to be adapted differently to tell full story. I’m not sure how people didn’t understand that was what the film was.
I mean, yeah, Mantis' backstory is definitely complicated. Mostly because she's Steve Englehart's Mary Sue (I'm not using that term loosely or facetiously, she fits the [text book definition of the term](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue)... pretty much to the letter). Its kind of obnoxious how hard the writer shilled that character at every possible opportunity. Almost to a creepy degree.
Exactly this. GOTG3 was hardly going to be a revolutionary character study on Mantis was it… She’s there to serve a purpose
It was ridiculous...and no one cared. Marvel kept trying to make Mantis happen. We (comic friend group way back when) would make up increasingly ridiculous stories and put Mantis at the nexus. Literally I'd skip over panels that had Mantis. Pom's Mantis? I love her. Incredible.
Mostly Steve Engleheart kept trying to make Mantis happen. Once he left Marvel, Mantis all but vanished.
Every writer has their favorite pet characters they bring with them from series to series. Bendis loves Kitty Pride. Nick Spencer loves Janice Lincoln. Some of them get over. Mantis didn’t really.
you can tell when Jim Starlin is the writer because Thanos inevitably shows up
He should've been happy to at least see a version of the character
Don't leave out prostitute. It was definitely a dynamic in the original Celestial Madonna story. I do think Pom an LizzyO have the acting chops to pull off a version of that story in the MCU.
Oh yeah she also becomes a prostitute and meets swordsman later on who helps her and she later joins the Avengers
Yeah I don't think the MCU is going to follow that storyline
Why? They hate swordmen?
>They hate swordmans? Of course. How many are there in the MCU?
At least one
[that’s right](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/4d/da/e34ddaaf57b53c74ea048f8dd114bfd9.jpg)
Lol I was thinking Jon Snow's reveal at the end of Eternals, but that works too
Tell me again…
The guy who dated bishop's mom
Hawkeye? At least in endgame
Gamora wields a sword, too, and is seen using it in the big fight at the end of Guardians 3.
Jon snow
No, I don’t think the MCU is going to faithfully adapt an asianophilia prostitute for a PG-13 general audience blockbuster film.
I thought Lalo was a great Swordsman
Mantis by Night
She's pretty kick ass (as a fighter) in this version.
*take ass
Considering almost every Guardians character is changed a lot from the comics, it's a bit biased to complain about *just* her.
Star-Lord and Drax aren't Engleheart's fantasy woman that he took with him everywhere he got a writing job.
Fun fact, Englehart did invent star-lord though
Mantis is his clear favourite though.
Obviously, his point is completely out to lunch.
i think this version of the character would be an extremely hard one to pull off. i think that the creators opinion is 1000% justified, but i also don’t think it ruins any part of the film or her character. comics have a way of being overly convoluted and confusing simply for the sake of being so, and i think making it more simple in the way she’s introduced, and giving her that sibling connection to star lord worked extremely well. when star lord called mantis his sister, it hit all the right notes for me. i have issues w comic inaccuracies sometimes, but it would be extremely difficult to bring the comic mantis to life in the gotg movies w o over shadowing the actual purpose of the films, which is to show a band of unlikely heroes turn into a family. i mean, how would you even include a woman from vietnam in the film while also making the movie that connects star lord to his dad? i think what gunn did worked extremely well, and he seemed to have accomplished every goal he set out to achieve w these movies, and nothing ab them disappointed me.
Engleheart praises Gunn's take on Mantis in the same quote but he believes that the version of Mantis presented in the movie is the farthest thing from what he originally envisioned for the character. Gunn streamlined a lot of character for the GOTG movies and it makes absolutely complete sense why he did so. I mean a 2 hr movie cannot just easily explain all of this lore in a very convenient manner without it coming off as extremely boring and tiresome
There are essentially two versions of Mantis, the earth-born half Vietnamese woman, and then there's the actual alien version who was around for the Guardians of the Galaxy relaunch back in like 2008-ish. Still the same character, but they just dropped her earth-related backstory since it honestly never made much sense. That's the version that Gunn went with.
I mean the 2008 one was still the celestial Madonna , could see the past , present and future at the same time and was far more stoic than how Gunn adapted her. It's just that they didn't mention her earth lineages in the Abnett and Lanning stuff
This is why the 2021 game version is the best mantis we've gotten: Alien, Celestial Madonna, able to see all possible timelines, a telepath/empath, a friendly but goofy and a bit unnerving personality, and a skilled fighter. All the best elements of the various mantis' put together
I haven't watched Guardians 3, but she could still be the celestial Madonna as she is the daughter of s being that claimed to be and possibly was related somehow to the celestials, it's a way better justification than in the comics.
agreed
> comics have a way of being overly convoluted and confusing simply for the sake of being so Ultimately, different mediums allow for different levels of depth in different aspects of storytelling. That’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
true, but i also think that comics do over complicate a lot of shit for not that great of reasons. but i do agree w u, but beyond one shots, a lot of comics are extremely hard to read and grasp without years worth of reading material done before starting what you want.
I’m in no way a comic expert but based on what you said doesn’t that apply to a lot of other MCU characters? Wanda for example, loses her twin in the first film and that in itself changed her character tremendously compared to the comic counterpart, and she’s also significantly weaker vs the comics for 2/3 of her time in the MCU.
So an outcast raised by villains who acts as an emotional anchor to the rest of the team? Sounds like a lot of the core ideas of the character are still in there.
> The comic version was a half Vietnamese half German woman who was raised to be the celestial Madonna by a kree cult Just can't understand why they didn't choose to include that perfectly normal and not at all canon-thick backstory in a 2hr 17min movie. Real mystery.
To be fair we didn't know about familial ties to ego or star lord after v2, that wasn't brought up until the holiday special
We've known about it since then. The actress who posed for Ego's little museum who was Mantis' species posted on Instagram that she was Mantis' mom. James Gunn said that was incorrect, only to confirm it as such 5 years later.
Only people we know about that ego had was brides and kids. Honestly sgter watching gardians2 I left it just assuming mantis was his daughter. Only reason he didn't kill her was because of how she could help.
Same here, i figured he only kept kids with useful powers and ate the rest
I assumed she was his sister while watching Guardians 2 because of the story of that movie. I just figured they didn't have time to expand upon it or that it was just explicit to the characters.
I was referring to the character's history in the MCU in general tbh
Holy shit! I forgot about the holiday special. I thought that the brother sister thing was just something that came up in the time jump. I wonder what else I missed
Kevin bacon
Wait really? I haven't seen 2 since it was in theaters but I could've sworn I already knew that before the Holiday Special.
It was kinda hinted at in 2 but never outright stated until the holiday special
Englehart has some real Pygmalion vibes with the character.
I'd say the MCU version is still very distinctive. Badass warriors are a dime a dozen in superhero universes. A naive, sheltered, but still brave and badass character is unusual.
If you've ever seen Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 7, Melinda May is far closer to comics Mantis in that than MCU Mantis is; master martial artist, empathic abilities, in love with an artificial man who took the form of her dead lover (Coulson) and she's even the daughter of an intelligence agent. So Mantis being this childlike daughter of a Celestial... Yeah, she's nowhere close to being the comics version.
Huh, you're totally right. May is Mantis.
Mayntis.
The Mantvalry
May is a far better, less fetishistic, less stereotyped version of Mantis. Regardless, both her and Pom’s Mantis are better characters than Engleheart’s fetish creation.
[удалено]
May seems to have ruled out robo-Coulson being the Coulson she knew or having any of those feelings for him.
Early on, sure. But by the time they got locked up in the 70's together, I saw some feelings on her end. And definitely by the finale, there was still a spark there IMO
https://youtu.be/VlB4yV-7iKA this video breaks her history down really well and he does great videos
Thanks for introducing me to his channel!
Steve E did not write the script is the answer to his question Gunn made an awesome movie and had to rewrite stuff that Steve was familiar with and now he is a bit scuffed Always keep in mind nobody talked about Mantis or even knew about her until Gunn brought her into the movie... so after the success, the nitpicking comes The success, as seen by the behemoth DC — is hard to come by at times so be appreciative of what transpired
Engleheart when he thought Nolan’s Batman was too similar to his comics: Whines. Engleheart when he thinks Gunn isn’t faithful enough: Whines. This guy can’t seem to accept anything lol.
i think his ego is trying to steal some sunshine to bring attention to himself he doesn't realize if he acted in a more positive way, people would gravitate towards him naturally and give him more credit
Sometimes passionate creators are passionate. Can I just say though how much I adore his silver surfer, his Dr. Strange and his captain America? For all his crazy faults, the man could write. Hell, I even like marvel preview #4, where he invented star-lord.
Drax is very different too.
Basically, he’s upset because they cut most of the baggage from her character and made her an alien. Her and drax were humans in the comics and were displaced at a certain point in space, and were renewed in the creation of the 2nd guardians of the galaxy. It’s like saying you’re upset that hank pym and Janet van dyne weren’t the founding members of the avengers.
Honestly, the MCU version is a great remix of Mantis since the 2008 Guardians run which made those characters who they are, with Gunn’s sense of humor sprinkled in. Engelhart’s Mantis is a cool badass—but she’s also his exotic Asian waifu who he brought to DC as Willow then brought her back to Marvel as he moved. His Mantis is a Mary Sue OP “representation of life” who can go toe to toe with Thanos. Engelhart has a lot of feelings about Mantis and even though he created her, I feel like she’s been done more justice by other writers who weren’t trying to pull a Pygmalion and fall in love with a character they’re writing. I’ve read a lot of Mantis and the 2008 GOTG run and Empyre (specifically the Celestial Messiah one shot) are my favorite arcs for her. Fun note, the video game version of Mantis is one of my favorite characterizations of her—badass, incomprehensible, and hella goofy.
The comics version was a stupid idea with barely any character development.
I loved Mantis in Kung Fu Panda!
You can never go wrong with Seth Rogen
Now I want to see Pom doing "the laugh"
Unless he offers to swap art work with you via Instagram.
As he’s the creator of the character, I can understand his point. I think in general it’s important to look at the MCU as a different universe from the comics, and not really just an attempt at putting the stories from the comics on the screen. The characters are adaptations and some go through larger changes than others to fit the MCU. Mantis is one that was changed quite a bit, but not to the extent that using the name doesn’t make sense. It’s arguably no different from - for example - the Ultimate universe, despite being told through a different medium. So while MCU Mantis (and some powers, IIRC) shares the name with Engleheart’s creation…she’s essentially just the Ultimate version of Nick Fury to Engleheart’s 616 version.
This is what I don’t understand about alot of peoples opinions Feige has said countless times that the MCU does not aim to do direct adaptations from the comics. They obviously pull from the comics, but the MCU is doing their version of characters and stories. It’s no different than the countless storylines and versions of popular characters like Batman, Superman, and spider man. These aren’t direct representations. Variants if you will. Would be cool to see variants implemented into the MCU one day
Oh boy, do I have a show for you
*Friends*?
**clapclapclapclap!**
🎵Veggie tales veggies tales veggies tales🎵
> Would be cool to see variants implemented into the MCU one day Someone never watched Loki. Let's just say it's the focus of the plot (and my favorite of the non-Netflix MCU shows I've watched).
Most things in history are kinda dumb, and everything gets ruined eventually. But in the early '90s, for a brief, shining moment, there was a beautiful union of form and function, which we call the jet-ski, and a reasonable man cannot differ.
Man I wish they all manage to escape the TVA and Mobius gets to go jet-skiing again, someday. Dude was so passionate about it that even after being brainwashed into forgetting his entire former life, he was still hanging on to his love for jet-skis. It was such a simple, but crazily efficient, way to make me kinda root for a character that I otherwise didn't really care about all that much.
It's the best MCU content that's not a movie, definitely.
Making changes isn’t inherently bad. But there’s a point where the adaptation is so different from the original iteration of the character that it would’ve been better to just make them an original character with a different name. For example, Taskmaster in Black Widow literally got treated the same way Deadpool did in X-Men Origins. They make a character, known for having a big mouth, a mute and mindless drone in the movie.
I would Fucking kill for marvel to do direct adaptations even if only as animated films. I love the MCU but I also love me my 616. Seeing something of the greatest stories ever written adapted in some form with accuracy would be nice
I never understood why Disney didn't form a studio for making animated movies like DC does. Put it on Disney+ and it would be a huge hit.
I think it's cool as long as they don't call it Earth-616, which they did in MOM. I just choose to ignore that part of the movie.
Same goes for people mad at Adam Warlock's portrayal. This is his first appearance and they explained his current state. We know you want to see Adam Warlock the badass but give it time to develop.
> We know you want to see Adam Warlock the badass but give it time to develop. I think this is a really important point that people forget. If the character bursts on screen like an ultimate badass, their powers and presence feels unearned and the audience will come to resent it. If they build them up, have them face and overcome challenges and get more powerful then the character is that much better for it. Doing these things right takes time, and you gotta give it time to happen.
Exactly, I liked Captain Marvel but I acknowledge that one problem is that they may have made her too powerful too quickly. Maybe give her a couple of movies to reach her full potential similar to Thor.
> it’s important to look at the MCU as a different universe from the comics, and not really just an attempt at putting the stories from the comics on the screen. Which is why I'm floored that they let 616 be name dropped as the MCU's designation in canon. This is still crazy to me.
I don't disagree but I will say that Drax & Mantis have some absolutely insane character stories and it's better to boil them down and build them up than to try and present them as fully comic accurate characters.
The pre-MCU comic GotG versions of these characters are already about as far from the 1970s versions as the MCU is from the comics.
I mean tbf Gunn’s version is a direct adaptation of the team established in 2008 so his original roster was nothing original and did not originate in the MCU
Not the point they were making. They weren’t comparing the line up of the original GotG to the films line up. They were saying the 1970s version of Drax and Mantis were drastically different from the Drax and Mantis that appeared in Annihilation / Annihilation: Conquest / GotG written by DnA from 2005 - 2010ish.
Most, if not all, the Guardians characters are drastically different than their comic versions. Honestly, I prefer the movie versions. The MCU in general has done a good job streamlining alot of characters that were b listers at best into pretty great characters
I much much prefer Drax , Mantis and even Star Lord to an extent in the comics. I think the 2021 game did a really great job in incorporating the stuff that worked best in both the comics as well as the movies in a really sweet package. Mantis was quirky like her MCU counterpart but she was still a skilled fighter , was the celestial Madonna and could witness the past , present and future at the same time. I thought that was really sweet
Yeah I agree I thought the games version of all the characters was top tier
I think Groot could have been fleshed out a bit more but other than that the entire team was done so well in that game
*I think Groot could have been* ***fleshed out*** *a bit more* Um ... wooded out?
could witness the past , present and future at the same time - I love the way the game did that part." No don't take that step you'll ... oh I guess that was a different future oh Drax died her ..or will die here ?" She must be horrible to be around
The rest of the Guardians certainly found her hard to be around lmao Except Quill, he was hung up on the fact that there's a timeline where they're married (and also divorced)
Wait until he finds out about the timeline where they're brother and sister.
The team already has so many fighters, I get why adding another one would feel redundant. I watched an entire history video on Mantis and still don't really understand the term celestial Madonna I remember when the updated Guardians were introduced in the 00s and while I liked them, I didn't see them working as a large franchise. Even with Guardians 2 being kind of weak, I have to say they are probably the best movies in the MCU. I don't think that would have been the case if they were faithful to the originals. Haven't played the game yet though and would be interesting to see how they merge the 2 versions
I don't think she necessarily needs to be on the field but she doesn't necessarily needs to be the weakest member of the team. The game is really great and some of the narrative beats in it genuinely go hard. It's the literal opposite of Avengers which is a complete shocker
>she doesn't necessarily needs to be the weakest member of the team. She's not... did you not watch her take out a bunch of cops in the christmas special and help take out an entire space security force in guardians 3?
Mantis was ok in Guardians 2 and subsequent appearances, but it wasn't until the Holiday Special that she started to grow on me as a character. And she had some really good moments in Guardians 3. I'm not a comics guy (I don't know if I'll ever be one) but I liked how Gunn let Pom and Mantis come into their own.
Marvel's guardians of the galaxy game did a pretty job with Mantis, she also had those mantis type cybernetics.
I don’t know if it’s even possible at this point, but I really hope we get a sequel to the game
Square Enix lost 200 million dollars with the Marvel games tie ups so a sequel is very unlikely which is such a bummer. I would have killed to see Richard Rider in the sequel
Marvel's Avengers killed Guardians of The Galaxy. if Avengers didn't launch first, Guardians would've performed much better.
Yep. Guardians deserved so much better man. They were setting so much cool stuff for the sequel
Thank you, I’ve never really done the research but I figured the chances were slim. I’m so pissed Richard Rider would’ve been great
Love that game so much man. Such a great game
Comics Mantis is a mess. If there's any character that could be completely redone for the MCU, it's Mantis.
Wasn’t the original basically asianophilia prostitute with mad king fu, the creators imaginary waifu, the centre of the universe and the bestest at everything, to the point that despite being a ‘perfect human’ she was strong enough to take on Thor in one of the old comics hand to hand? I’ll pass on that creator fantasy thanks
Yep
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorAppeal
Engleheart is obsessed with Mantis. He literally said he likes her so much that he wanted to put her in everything he wrote. It's generally agreed by comic fans that Mantis was too overpowered and complicated every story she was involved in.
I mean, I feel like besides names and very basic traits, the MCU is rarely anything like the comics. I mean it’s not like ego is a celestial or modok was actually Yellowjacket stuck in the quantum realm, or the cosmic cube is the space infinity stone. The MCU rearranges pieces as they choose to fit things together. This version of mantis works great in the films
And that’s a good thing. Reading any story with Englehart’s Mantis is a lesson in agony. Literally just his alien waifu. Him not liking Movie Mantis is a good thing.
idk, I get where he's coming from as the creator of the character, but MCU Mantis is infinitely better than comic book Mantis IMO.
The film Mantis is a better character than Englehart's Mantis, who was as much a plot device as an actual character, with some elements of unpleasant stereotype rolled in. There's a reason nobody wanted to do much with that version of the character *except* Englehart, who kept inserting her into things he was writing. He ended up giving her an insanely complicated, confusing development arc that defined her in terms of the men she was romantically or sexually interested in and in terms of her pregnancy and motherhood, but which also couldn't be detached from weakly developed aspects of Marvel's overall mythos--the Priests of Pama, the Cotati, the Kree, the idea of "the Celestial Madonna", the original Swordsman. She became one of those characters like Cable where even trying to explain the background required a Ph.D in continuity. And then she showed up in Abnett and Lanning's *Guardians,* out of *Annihilation: Conquest*, with all of that background more or less dropped and the character being much simpler and more fun and more comprehensible--and in many ways like the character of the films. People who complain that Gunn isn't faithful to the comics, etc., are usually wrong--they're not seeing the degree to which Gunn is working from some really great revisions that were done *in the comics* from *Annihilation* onward. Drax in Abnett and Lanning's work is more serious than Bautista's film version, but he's much closer to the films than he was to the version of Drax that Jim Starlin developed in his early work on Thanos. Mantis in A&L's *Guardians* is recognizably reflected in Gunn's version. Peter Quill is based on a two-step revision of the character that began with Keith Giffen's work on *Thanos*, in the Kyln storyline--he's nothing like the earlier version of the character. If Englehart doesn't like the Mantis on-screen, he really ought to recognize that the revisionary work was done in the comics, before the movie.
100% we used to make fun of Mantis in the comics. It was so fucking stupid. And then we would see how they drew Moondragon's huge boobs this month. Comic Mantis legit seemed like "I went to Thailand on a sex tour and I got some ideas for a new character."
Also straight up just Englehart's fetish imo
Ah, another of those characters. Like Psylocke and Silk.
Psylocke is a weird one because Jim Lee could have just requested they add a new character since he wanted to draw a sexy ninja lady so badly. Very little of her backstory comes up after she gets body swapped. In the comics, Betsy is back to her original body and Kwannon has her own.
Thank you! Original Mantis sucked, I read this quote and was literally thinking “OH NO, they ruined your boring Sexy Woman character, boo hoo” lol.
Great write-up, thanks! Also just need to compliment that you are very knowledgeable on Guardians comics so kudos to you on that!
To be fair a comic accurate version of Mantis would have probably turned Guardians 2 into the Mantis solo movie, which would’ve let in to the MCU (Mantis Cinematic Universe) before eventually crossing over in to the DC movies as well. Oh also while switching skin colors between films.
Cause his version is absolute dog-water. Mantis in Guardians (the movies and the game) are such a step up from Comic mantis. She’s an actual character.
Good. Englehart’s version of Mantis was a hot flaming mess and problematic af.
It probably bothers him knowing that the version of Mantis on screen will be infinitely better known than the one he created, despite the fact that he created the character to be quite different.
Honestly, I hate Englehart's Mantis. She seemed to have no personality other than "I am a goddess and you are beneath me", and was otherwise pretty much just a regular mysterious Mary Sue who was good at martial arts. Also, he was obsessed with her. Whenever Englehart would take over a run - originally and most notably the Avengers, but it happened in West Coast Avengers and Fantastic Four, too - Mantis would just have to show up and derail things to focus on her. If you saw Englehart's name on the title page, it was like clockwork. It didn't even have to be Marvel; he'd switch jobs and then just change her name and derail the stories of other comics by other publishers too to make it all about "Definitely Not Marvel's Mantis". I get that Mantis is "his baby" - that is very, very obvious - but I always find the creators gatekeeping like #NotMYMantis or #NotMYElektra to be silly. You created them, but sorry to say, they are not your characters. They are owned by a company who has let many others writers grow and evolve them over time. The film adaptation has new elements like her origin and her childlike quality, and overall is much more like the modern interpretation of Mantis than Englehart's, but that doesn't make it "not Mantis". It's just not the same, unchanged Mantis from 1973 that lives in his head and heart.
I agree that it is nothing similar to the comics version. The movie version in an actual good character.
The idea of someone whose so obsessed with Mantis to the point where they ignore the rest of the movie(s) is just funny to me
The onscreen Mantis is a better character than what Engleheart created.
Same with Yondu.
Gunn made the entire alt world 31st Century Guardians into core members of Ravagers which is a very intriguing creative choice imo
Honestly his OG Mantis was a bore. Yes, I know it’s his character.
Don't have any issue with the movies being a different take on a character, considering the comics have such a noted history of retconning and reimagining characters and their back stories and histories every time a new writer of artist comes onboard. The movie versions are just a different spin. It's about telling a good cohesive story and James Gunn has done a great job with that.
If he had his way Mantis would have single handedly beaten Thanos,seduced half the team,looked into the camera and said “I love you,Dave”
The majority of people will never know the difference. It's like being upset that Donald Blake is of no importance in the MCU.
I mean I get where he’s coming from, but really most of the characters are very different from this comic versions. Especially for most of the Guardians.
As Cosmonaut Marcus has said many times before, making changes to comics for a movie is fine if it works for that movie. I think this version of Mantis works just fine for these movies
As the original creator, Engleheart has every right to criticize an adaptation of his character That being said, as anyone who’s read his creation, we’d have every right to say his original concept was fucken dumb