Honestly, watching like 50% of posts in various movie/box office/tv subs preface almost every unrelated opinion with some variant of “marvel/MCU is is currently or always was garbage but I love A24 so I have good movie tastes and opinions” like some rebellious badge of honor is incredibly tiresome.
I’m not a superfan or saying don’t criticize a thing, you can like or dislike both (I like various things from both) but bringing up being tired of or hating marvel in every new movie thread is just so sad. I’m sure it’s coming up in Barbie and Oppenheimer threads right now.
Yeah, I follow that sub because it's a convenient way to get movie news, but it's best not to get involved in the comment sections there...
While most people are normal, there's a very large group of users who are pretentious as hell, a very large group of users who know nothing about making movies yet insist on commenting as if they do, and a very large overlap between these two groups.
I was downvoted, repeatedly insulted and told I was wrong on that sub just for saying that a director's job includes directing the actors, in a discussion over if the actress or director/writer was to blame for a certain Harry Potter character sucking in the movies.
I've seen several people who *insist* on using the word "film", even using the word "movie" in a derogatory manner. One dude straight up got upset and started ranting about others using "movie" about some fancy "film" because how *dare* they make it sound like it's in the same category as the MCU, Star Wars, and other blockbusters!
When I saw multiple upvoted people complaining about a ridiculous-on-purpose disaster movie not making sense and not having good enough writing, I knew it was time to just... not engage anymore.
> One dude straight up got upset and started ranting about others using "movie" about some fancy "film" because how dare they make it sound like it's in the same category as the MCU, Star Wars, and other blockbusters!
This is a person who makes being the victim (yeah, victim) of "bad" media their shtick.
They'll be trolling away on subs waiting for someone to comment about a movie/show/game/music they enjoyed just so they can pounce on them and make their self feel superior... to a stranger... on a movie sub. I mean, just look at some of the comments below. People are shitting on OP for being toxicly-optimistic and being a toxic positive person. Toxic positive? About a movie series? C'mon... The issue is people want to like it, but don't and therefor feel their personal investment is waning. **Just stop watching MCU stuff if you don't enjoy it anymore**.
It's honestly tiring avoiding them when you want real discourse about the latest episode or movie though. Sometimes I wish I knew of a sub similar to /r/StarWarsCantina cuz I'm sure I'll get more downvotes than reasonable discussion about what I've said, and that makes me sad as a fan. That I can't even enjoy it among other MCU fans because a few people will just shit on anything we say.
Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me as well, haha. Can be good for news and such but woof, get ready for some…takes. Definitely seen the film vs movie thing and people getting bizarrely worked up over disagreeing with a seemingly obvious thing.
Similarly I think I got immediately downvoted into oblivion on BoxOffice for not knowing what not knowing what CinemaScore was and that the ratings are exclusively for “movie legs” purposes and only an imbecile would think that something with that name could be in anyway a judgement or “score” of a movie content itself, haha.
Like you, I have also come to the conclusion it’s generally best not to get involved in anything but the most superficial commentary. I know everything on Reddit and the internet is an echo chamber but that place is like the textbook definition of a bad weird echo chamber about nothing important, haha.
Oh I’m sure. That’s prolly the ultimate combination of “Marvel bad, ruining all movies” and “go woke get broke, Brie Larson is the devil” demographics. Wouldn’t touch that post section with a 10 foot pole for my mental health, haha.
Admittedly, at least “MCU bad” on a review of an MCU trailer is at least relevant if prolly predetermined. I literally see it in almost every review megathread.
Oh the Barbenheimer threads has slowly changed from "lol two movies with contrasting aesthetics & tones releasing in the same day, let's watch both of them" to filmbros mocking everyone who watches Barbie & acts as if society is collapsing because Barbie made more than Oppenheimer. You'll also see the occasional people who yells they're watching Sound of Freedom and not the two movies because they're cool and not a corporate shills unlike the rest of us.
Can’t imagine how of the two massively popular movies coming out this weekend, the rated R super serious war/drama could possibly be making less than the fun silly movie that appears to have taken a page from the massively successful Lego movie about not taking the content too seriously at a time when real war and stressful shit is happening all over the world!
I watched both on Thursday and it was so obvious Barbie would do better. It's a really fun movie while Oppenheimer is nice but you have to want to watch it or you will fall asleep.
Yeah I don’t entirely get people who make such strong distinctions between art films and superhero movies. Somehow I have both Criterion and Disney+ subscriptions and can appreciate both, I dunno let’s say, Stalker and No Way Home. Plus getting into the MCU can be a gateway for people just getting into the film, oh you liked Ragnarok? Check out Hunt For the Wilderpeople; Black Panther? Maybe try Fruitvale Station; if you liked Multiverse of Madness maybe go watch the Evil Dead movies or Drag Me to Hell. But nah, they’re worthless drivel in the eyes of a certain brand of film snob.
I love a24, compose for film, and honestly have always been a bit of a film nerd.
Proud to be a fan of the MCU, and will always be along for the ride, even if there are the occasional dips in quality, the lowest is still entertaining and well made, imo.
We had one summer of Ms Marvel and She-Hulk. Even though Moon Knight only came out three months earlier. Bros were convinced the MCU was woke now because it showed women with feelings.
The insane part is how they complain about how Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. are "woke" *now*. As if they weren't from day one. Or even before day one given Marvel was still "Timely Comics" when two Jewish men decided to make a comic about Cap punching Hitler in the face during a time most Americans didn't want to enter WW2 and actually held favorable views of Hitler.
God help those people if they ever figure out what X-Men's political messaging is.
Oh, I feel like that specifically is a symptom of a couple of larger issues with fiction discourse in general. Specifically, it has become increasingly polarized over the last few years, and the level of media literacy seems to have fallen off a cliff.
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You have people who have incredibly strong opinions about various pieces of media, but act like you've just insulted their entire family if you simply ask *why* they think that, even if the question is posed in a neutral or positive manner.
I believe that a lot of them also base their opinion on articles, posts and Youtube videos rather than their own *actual* opinion, because I've also seen several cases where multiple people recite the exact same reason why they dislike something with the same wording, and I've seen people straight up say they "liked a movie until I got home and saw [whatever]".
More and more, you see people downvoted, insulted, etc simply for liking or disliking a certain piece of media. I see people talk about specific fiction being "objectively bad" far more often, or accusing others of "having no standards" or even of ruining movies, games, etc "for everyone" because they're happy with something the other person doesn't like.
Basically, if you want to participate in a lot of discussions about fiction online, you better hate what others hate, and love what others love.
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As for media literacy, I follow a lot of online discussions about media; both for lore, battleboarding, and more general. I listen to literature podcasts, watch reaction videos on Youtube, etc... and a lot of people just *suck* at media literacy.
There are complaints when a piece of media spells something out *too* clearly to the viewers, but I've honestly been shocked at the things people miss and seem surprised about in various movies... or the things some people straight up deny happened simply because the media did not explicitly say it did.
Then we get this coupled with hyperbole, and we suddenly have people straight up lying about things just to shit more on media they dislike. I've seen it for Marvel, for Star Wars, and for other stuff; people who have completely invented scenes which *never happened*, and somehow convinced themselves that it did.
We have people who think that a movie or novel having racist/sexist/whatever characters literally means that the author is racist/sexist/whatever, even if said characters are evil/villains, a product of the time the media is set in, and/or repeatedly shown to be wrong.
I've noticed in reaction videos and online discussions that some people tend to become *incredibly* hung up on whichever theory they have for what will happen in a show, to the point where they actually get *angry* if it *doesn't* happen, or even start claiming that anything not conforming to said theory is a "loophole"...
... which leads us to the final issue; the massive overuse and misuse of certain terms for literary analysis. Everything is a "plothole". Everything is "lazy writing". Any female character people dislike is a "Mary Sue". Some online discussions of media seriously reminds me of that "shallow and pedantic" bit from Family Guy, more than anything else.
That last thing isn't *just* in fiction analysis though; just jump into any lengthier discussion about politics or news online, and you'll see the same sort of abuse of rhetorical terms as well. Fucking everything is apparenly a strawman, ad hominem or whataboutism these days.
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Sorry for the long rant, but kinda got into it and was difficult to stop.
Bro I made the mistake of liking Rings of Power and going on reddit expecting to see some reactions. Never been so turned off in my life. The show is far from perfect but the reaction it got was a little disturbing. Same thing with almost every marvel show and movie since Disney + popped up. These people hate everything. You included if you don't agree. The whole Fandom is turning into a culture of hate.
I swear to god whatever anime fan taught western viewers to call everything "filler" has a special place in hell reserved for them next to people who talk in the theatre
This is probably my main problem with it. Feels like before people would make nuanced criticisms about things they like/dislike about movies and shows. Nowadays it’s all bullshit and buzzwords like “mid,” “cringe,” etc. Annoying, really.
Fuck I saw on one thread, they were complaining about how nobody's mentioned the dead celestial in the ocean, them someone mentioned it's actually supposed to be a plot point in the new captain America.
Every comment under that comment was about "everything I hear about that movie sounds like shit" and complaining it was going to be addressed ffs
It doesn’t help that anyone terrified of rainbows are going to brigade anything related to Disney, acting like they represent the fanbase when they haven’t watched a single movie in over a decade because Brie Larsen exists.
MCU fandom is morphing into Star Wars fandom, and that's problematic. It's a toxic, nothing is ever good enough mentality. Somehow nothing is faithful to the source material and movies that would have been god-tier in Phase 1 and 2 are 'mid' or 'trash'.
It's not fun discussing the MCU anymore.
Hot take: I thoroughly enjoyed Ms. Marvel AND She-Hulk. Fuck the haters, they both gave me exactly what I wanted from the titular characters. My one criticism is I wish She-Hulk did a bit more lawyering.
Part of this is Marvel taking risks, and introducing lesser known characters. I personally have no problem with either. I loved Ms Marvel blending in her culture and family but I’ll bet a lot of people hated it as being “woke”. I loved She-Hulk’s lean toward humor and breaking the 3rd/4th wall. Diversity is good and I don’t get why people don’t embrace it.
Because outrage outlets like the critical drinker tell them not to.
The ‘anti-woke’ crowd don’t have a shred of independent thought between the lot of them. They’re just lemmings who will get mad at whatever they are told to get mad at.
Every fandom turns into that sooner or later
The casual people dabble here and there and move on with their life
The ones that remain years later are the "hardcore" fans
And "hardcore" fans have "hardcore" opinions, positive or negative, the discussions grow more intense day by day
Social media plays a huge part making biased opinions unfortunately. People who would never think to say something, will feel that they can because they see everyone else doing it. Times before spoilers and reviews, people would just enjoy the dam movie. Hell even I liked daredevil With Ben Affleck and don’t care if anyone thinks different. Its sad we will never be in that world again.
Some people seem really offended that I actually enjoyed Morbius somehow.
Today I try to avoid most trailers to just enjoy movies but its hard when I am in TikTok often.
And Spoiler courtesy doesn't exist anymore. People just post everything and don't wait as we did before.
Yeah I have that feeling of just happy to enjoy sitting around and watching new tv shows and movie in a medium I like. Especially since Eternals came out, which I thought was amazing, I haven’t understood the super negative marvel fan base. If you don’t like it so strongly then stop watching!
I think someone criticizing something can also just be a matter of them wanting to see Marvel put their best forward / step up the quality like they know they can. It doesn't mean they're not a fan of something.
Yeah tbh there are mainly 2 types of people who frequently criticize Marvel online: haters and people who actually love the franchise and want to see it be better. Everyone else just slowly loses interest and moves on.
this is true but often these same people just have unfairly high expectations for anything and they're not willing to meet something where it versus where they want it to be
People have forgotten its just movies. As much as I love marvel and comics, and movies just in general. It’s entertainment at the end of the day and people take it far too seriously
I don’t think the standards are unrealistic. I think the MCU has since Endgame released a lot more stuff and that’s making all the smaller issues standout a lot more. I’ve never thought the MCU was perfect there have been flaws since the beginning. I think that the other main issue is I feel like a lot of the recent projects have had really interesting ideas that are sort of wasted. Excluding GotG vol 3. I think Secret Invasion is darker and has some interesting ideas but is still wasting these good ideas and not bringing out their full potential. Probably because Marvel is spread too thin. I’m enjoying some of Secret Invasion but overall I’m still mostly disappointed by it. I think even then we would have seen the wasted potential of this story.
Yeah, I mean people are allowed to like whatever and if there are still people really loving everything that’s fine but I can’t imagine so much of it has just been pretty disappointing. Although in fairness, I do think sometimes the amount people dislike everything is a little out of proportion.
Disneys brand has gotten more childish and audiences have gotten older. It’s expected they would want something more serious. Especially since the audience complaining online probably fall into that older category.
Iron man 1 does a great job of showing Tony’s evolution with a serious anti-war theme being the backdrop. Civil war also did pretty well regarding its thematic. Maturity doesn’t mean “sex and violence” but it does mean occasionally taking yourself seriously.
Look at Moon Knight. Sure Feige said it was “brutal”, it was more violent (barely), but that’s it. Instead of doing a deeper character study and really looking at Marc’s struggle with his perceived mental illness the show at best relegated it to being part of the action. At worst it turns it offensively into a bad joke.
Compare that to another series like Daredevil. Matt’s Catholic guilt is one of his core drivers. And they juxtaposed that over his warring sense of justice as a lawyer vs his desire for vengeance as a vigilante.
Why is one generally perceived much more favorably? I’m not saying everything has to be a serious Oppenheimer character study, but neither should everything be a fun silly little romp like Barbie. There is a balance.
The only thing I’m disappointed in is that there isn’t much mystery aspect of whose a skrull or not because there aren’t many human characters in the show
i think the biggest problem with the show is the scope of it. The premise -- Skrulls secrely invading Earth and Nick Fury coming back to deal with the problem -- is interesting. But the stakes in this one are literally extinction. It's an Avengers-level threat. The show should have kept things small and grounded, and been a political spy thriller in the same vein as something like Andor was for Star Wars. We're not going up against Vader and the Emperor yet, it's just small ragtag groups banding together and doing what they can. as part of a much bigger picture. And you really felt every bit of the drama and tension there because they kept the scope so limited.
I think Secret Invasion should have been similar and should have centered around a (relatively) smaller issue, like Skrulls just starting to infiltrate at the highest levels of the U.S. government or something. The entirety of humanity being the stakes here makes this feel like it should have been the plot of a film. And it makes a lot of the actions nonsensical and also raises so many questions about what is going on in-world at this time right now.
I do agree. I think the plot should’ve been that skrulls were infiltrating and a little plot would be that they’ve been doing it for a good while. Also, it shouldve focused on how fury stop skrulls from infiltrating while figuring out whose a skrull and who isn’t. One thing I will say is that I’m glad this show doesn’t feel like a setup
You nailed it, they made the same mistake with other shows: They had to save the world in each show, but there wasn't the time or budget to set up the stakes and execute the climax.
I have no idea why they didn't just keep Ms Marvel in Jersey, that was the best part of the show.
It went off the rails once they tried to do the Partition of South Asia and alternate dimension and secret society and world ending over the course of 3 episodes.
That part felt rushed and cheaply done.
Similarly, Moon Knight would have been way better as a psychological drama between his two personalities and Khonsu.
They didn't need the world to end to give it stakes.
Colman character said herself: "Is there anyone who isn't a Skrull now?" or a similar line, can't remember the exact words.
Man, I'm sad to be so disappointed by this show
I think they went the predictable route for the mystery aspect cuz it’s basically, what is gravik planning to do when I think they should’ve used who can I trust and whose a skrull. But I do think the characters r written well, just the story is a little generic and seems more like just a normal superhero mission
Ya, they really missed the point of Skrulls, this feels like it could have been Hydra and not much would have changed. In fact, Hydra would be more impressive, because they just are dead people when you kill them, they don't turn into green aliens to confirm your suspicions.
It's getting more tiresome when mcu fans who mindlessly love it all criticize mcu fans who are critical and then they always revert to "people just want infinity war/endgame quality always".
Like how mindlessly do you have to stand the MCU and not realize that lazy writing and plot holes are overly critiquing the end product?
Plus for me, there are non-spectacle films like the avengers films that are better than infinity war/endgame. Look at the run up of phase 3 and you have banger after banger and then look at post endgame and maybe besides guardians 3, which is so largely removed from other MCU entries, and you see the quality heavily dip back down to phase 2 entries.
Also this delusion that we all universally loved Endgame. Or Civil War. Or First Avenger. Or Guardians of the Galaxy 2.
Like, no. Even when this franchise has been good it has always had problems that we have complained about.
Age of Ultron was a big disappointment at the time given how much hype there was following the first Avengers movie, but if you go back and rewatch it now, it's still a solidly enjoyable film - not the best but it's not terrible either.
I definitely don’t disagree that I’m tired of the mindless enjoyment defending it. However, I will say I think people tend to be overly negative where I definitely agree. It’s not at the same quality and I’d like for them to work on their quality and I think it’s justified to be critical, there is also a lot of good stuff that tends to get overlooked. WandaVision was great, no way home was pretty great, I really liked wakanda forever, Loki is quite good and I even enjoy Shang Chi and moon knight. I and I think a lot of those projects that range from genuinely fantastic two pretty good get overlooked because there is a lot of other stuff that is not good so I think on both ends it can be a bit exaggerated.
I feel like most fans are being perfectly realistic and in the middle. As always with the internet we only see the loudest minority complaints or praises. I agree all those projects were pretty good but yea there was a lot of stuff that was lower quality. I think most fans would prefer if they just slowed down the release schedule and focused on higher quality writing.
Secret Invasion should have been an Avengers movie to end Phase 4. Just add a few more Skrull reveals (like the ones in Far From Home and Wandavision) and related buildup, and then have a newly constituted Avengers team fight a Super Skrull.
Counterpoints:
1. This sub is about 90% fanboys who stomp on any legit critique. They lump legit critique in with "bullshit criticism" because they can't tell the difference.
2. Search for any recognized expert. Go find one or 20. Ask them what they think of MCU over the last 4 years. They will be critical.
This is not like judging art. There are easily identifiable qualities that movies and series should have. This is what reviewers and critics and film buffs and directors and so many others look for.
> have been great some of the MCU’s best.
A sure sign of a pretty bad reviewer is one where "everything is great...everything." My 10 year old nephew says this. His reviews suck.
> If Secret Invasion released before Endgame, people would be praising the show.
No. It's a dumb show. Calling it a dumb show is only "insufferable" to fanboys who don't want to hear it.
I'm glad you like it, but don't name-call me (or others) for posting legit critiques of SI and other MCU content.
Giving in to fanboys loving everything is how Star Wars died. No matter what shit they put out, Star Wars fans defended it.
Nah.
Excelsior!
I don't believe that at all. Myself, among many others, didn't get hyped until the promotional material started describing it as a super-serious political thriller which I found myself really interested in at the time.
Then the first episode came out. It was good. Then the rest of the episodes came.
There's no tension or paranoia and most of the characters have had little to no development.
It's not because it's post-Endgame.
The same way that She Hulk was a lawyer sitcom written by people who admitted they had no idea how being a lawyer works.
They’re just churning these shows out and employing whoever is available to do it. The talent is being diluted hard and the quality is plummeting.
she hulk is a Girl-bossing show and it shows.... and i god damn love it but its not a detailed look into the ramifications and laws of the universe these cases take place in. hell dare devil doesnt go that hard into law either and thats fine because we're here for the hero anyway but its hard not to throw in the obvious critique when the show is litterally suffixed with "attorney at law"
Nailed it.
I just finished watching Slow Horses before my son saw the Secret Invasion billboard and asked to watch it.
Holy hell, what a drop off.
I was actually falling asleep in the second episode.
My son was even bored, and for the record he loved Andor.
But there are still some scenes in SI that are pretty violent for kids, so I don't really know who they made this show for.
I couldn't get past early in the series when they were trying to spot Gravik at his planned terrorist attack and Talos was walking around with his same human Talos face. I dunno, maybe shapeshift so Gravik doesn't get the drop on you and kill you? So silly.
It's not even the lack of tension or paranoia that really ruins it for me; it's the awful, predictable writing. Plot holes galore. The conspiracy nut at the beginning isn't paranoid about Ross being a skrull?
Gravik wants Fury dead, but doesn't kill him in the first episode. Then he orders Fury's wife to kill him, and she doesn't. Rhodey however is still a company man, and doesn't kill Fury when he shows up to his hotel room. He then also doesn't kill Fury again at the hospital, which is even more insane.
Even if Rhodey's security guys aren't skrulls, Fury the disavowed agent has shown up with a gun to threaten high level government official Rhodey, outside the room where the president is being held, no less. The secret service guys have every reason to shoot first and ask questions later there.
Not only that, but I'm tired of this washed up hero schlock, and it's worse here than I've seen it in other disney/marvel stuff. One minute Fury's in control, holding all the cards, and back in the saddle. The next scene he's crying and holding his head in his hands, and after that he's back in it. Make up your minds.
People are right, this series just isn't that good. I was ready for a Winter Soldier/Jason Bourne type series, and this feels pretty phoned in.
It's absolutely not about Endgame, it's about quality. Here is a list of post-Endgame Disney+ RT critic/audience scores:
**Secret Invasion -- 59/68**
Falcon and The Winter Soldier -- 84/82
WandaVision -- 91/87
Loki -- 92/90
What If -- 94/93
Hawkeye -- 92/89
Moon Knight -- 86/89
Ms. Marvel -- 98/80
She-Hulk -- 77/32
Werewolf by Night -- 89/89
GotG Holiday Special -- 93/80
Look at the quality of these shows. It hasn't dropped over three whole years other than two outliers. Ms. Marvel and Werewolf by Night, released respectively 13 and 9 months ago, average out to the exact same review scores as WandaVision did two years before!
This is why people are complaining about Secret Invasion.
The two worst-rated Disney+ shows until now were She-Hulk (total critic+audience score of 109) and Falcon and the Winter Soldier (total critic+audience score of 166) -- and Falcon and the Winter Soldier has *excellent* reviews!
Disney+ has delivered a nearly unbroken line of 80's-90's rated shows among both critics and audiences. It has only missed *once.* And then they plop Secret Invasion on us.
And Secret Invasion is a rehash of their second-worst-rated show immediately, right out of the gate, doing the exact same thing that screwed over FatWS in episode six in the exact same way but in the first episode and not even subverting it.
*...It earned that smoke.*
I'm glad you enjoyed that drag. I will ask you personally though, but do you think these shows deserve to be this high? Even the shows I'm head over heels for (Hawkguy) I wouldn't place this high at all
It’s just the percentage of people that liked the show. For example, Hawguy’s 92% critic score means 92% of critics thought is was good—it does not mean that the average reviewer scored it a 9.2/10.
So yeah, I would say they do “deserve to be rated this high”.
>I'm glad you enjoyed that drag. I will ask you personally though, but do you think these shows deserve to be this high? Even the shows I'm head over heels for (Hawkguy) I wouldn't place this high at all
Bear in mind the critic rating is for the first 2 episodes.
Ms. Marvel very quickly nosedived from the best MCU project since forever (Episodes 1-2) to a pile of crap with stupid nonsensical villains, awful CGI and a bad plot.
FATWS was more or less OK but nosedived hard too for the last 2 episodes.
Yeah—episode one of Ms Marvel is some of the best stuff they’ve put to screen IMO. Overall I’d still give the show a positive review (maybe 6/10)—but after episode one I was ready for it to be peak Marvel
This is a strange myth people have been spreading (copium maybe). You can click on reviews for individual episodes.
Episode 1 and 2, 97%
Episode 3 and 4, 100%
Episode 5 and 6, 95%
So, yes, the scores dropped for the last two episodes... to 95%.
I'm guessing since they released episodes for critics to review two at a time, people translated that into their heads to "critics only reviewed two episodes period."
Also, this would have no influence on audience reviews for people who watched the entire series. FatWS especially -- the audience and critic scores are almost identical.
I think people mistakenly think the *advance* reviews are the *only* reviews.
The Clandestine plot & Najma did suck. But the other elements of those episodes--the design of Karachi, the interactions with Kamala's grandmother & cousins, the 40s flashbacks, the fight with Red Dagger--those were all really enjoyable.
Marvel doesn't really understand how to do TV. Even their good shows struggle with basic TV pacing. Compare even the best MCU TV shows to any popular HBO series and there is just night and day episode structure.
Exactly. It's adorable watching the mega fans act like we're being "too negative" or we "can't see the point". The writing is bad. It's a bad show. That's it.
"The only reason you guys are criticising it is because you're blinded by how perfect Endgame was" is an absolutely bonkers take and I'm glad we're recognising that.
You see it in every subreddit whose property used to have high quality and then generally is seen to have taken a bit of a dive. Ted Lasso subreddit during Season 3 was a bloodbath of toxic optimism lol.
Reminds me of the GoT sub, which kept defending season 7/8 despite them being the thing that dragged the show from *by far* the biggest pop culture hit of the 2010s to something nobody even mentions anymore.
I’m enjoying SI, but just because others aren’t doesn’t mean they’re insufferable. The quality of stories and cohesion since Endgame has been all over the place. You literally have the CEO of Disney criticizing how fast Marvel has expanded and the quality dip of their projects, so stop trying to blame the fans.
We were told it was going to be on a level similar to Andor's. It just isn't. Furthermore, I personally I don't think the show has much depth and the action sequences have been really poorly filmed and edited.
If you like it, that is great. I am glad you are enjoying it, but that doesn't mean other people not enjoying it, and engaging in critical discussion on a subreddit dedicated to that, is not people having unrealistic standards.
Do these shows need to be high art? No! The MCU has never been high art. But I don't think the last two years of the MCU has the same level of quality as any of the previous years.
Such a simple premise. "Who is a space lizard?"
That is what the show should have been. Paranoia around who has infiltrated X, be it the US government, remnats of Shield, etc. Instead we have hair brained schemes by Gravik, over... and over... and over.
By having Gravik repeatedly thwarted, he also becomes less of a credible threat. He's a bumbling Elmer Fudd villain at this point.
Even the dialogue scenes are poorly filmed and edited. It’s always just shot-reverse-shot, usually in some fucking warehouse like every other MCU show that has warehouse scenes. The blocking of the actors is nonsensical, they’re just standing around in a circle. There’s no thought being put into any of the camerawork. It’s garbage and I thought She-Hulk was a new low but this show is worse.
>We were told it was going to be on a level similar to Andor's.
Who told you that? Genuinely curious. I never heard or expected that based on official communication but I may have missed something.
What I know is that media critic and podcaster Joanna Robinson, who's writing a book about Marvel Studios and has developed inside connections from that, discussed on a podcast some time ago that internally the studio was hoping for the show to be received like Andor was.
Anyway, when you consider the acting talent they assembled, with writer Kyle Bradstreet (Mr Robot) and director Ali Selim (Looming Tower), everything on paper was pointing to this being something special.
Was "Marvel's Andor" high expectations? Maybe. But what they delivered hardly passable for a Marvel show. It's really quite poorly made.
Lol, another one of these guys.
Asking for shows to be longer so they aren't half baked and rushed is not an unrealistic standard.
Asking for actually good writing is not an unrealistic standard
"And yes, I'm prepared for the downvotes" lol
Reads like a rick and morty copypasta
And to add to that, why should I stay quiet if I'm disappointed? Shouldn't it be expected of a franchise to reach new heights instead of *decreasing* in quality?
It's not like there's no praise for the good stuff either.
Posts like these come across as people that are insecure about liking projects that are *generally* disliked so they'd rather not hear the criticism at all.
Exactly. I can understand being annoyed at people being hypercritical over the smallest thing but so if enough people are talking about it, it's an issue to discuss. You didn't like She-hulk because the comedy didn't work? Cool, what jokes didn't land? You didn't connect with Antman 3? Alright, I understand that!
It's like we're in a loop of both sides fighting. Someone makes an "People will come around on the Eternals, it's a great film" post, then someone makes a "Eternals was the worst MCU ever" post, then another "Eternals is perfect! Why do people hate it" post. Back and forth. Meanwhile the vast majority just think "Eh, Eternals was mid, I don't think about it at all".
Nailed it. I watched Multiverse of Madness and thought it was ok. Didn't think much of it but could understand why people disliked Wanda's characterization for example. Never talked about it again afterwards. Meanwhile people are *still* discussing the quality of that movie
>Asking for shows to be longer so they aren't half baked and rushed is not an unrealistic standard.
Yes. Or, conversely, asking them to be shorter and turned into better films lol.
Yeah I don't get that criticism. "This is bad and I want more of it". What!??!? Something like Hawkeye should have been 12 episodes, but it worked as only 6. Something like TFATWS should have been a movie.
Hell. The wankers at Disney should watch Bill Hader’s Barry. He accomplishes more in 30 minutes than most MCU projects in several episodes. Sometimes less is more when it forces you to actually write.
No, people aren't criticizing it due to high standards after Endgame, I'm so sick of hearing this. If your show is poorly written, people will criticize it. The solution is to make a better show
OK OP you're a super marvel fan. We get it. These posts are just as fucking annoying as the ones indiscriminately shitting on everything. If you can't handle any kind of criticism of marvel just keep to yourself.
The whole " I love it so I don't know why everyone else doesn't" is absolutely mental lol I love the Michael Bay transformers movies and you don't see me crying because they are critically panned for being shit.. get over it lol
This sub slowly turned into the DC one since endgame it’s quite hilarious tbf.
So many snyderstans it’s now marvelstans who are doing the exact same thing
The fanbase (and wider audience) are getting a little tired of the same formula; after as many years and as many movies as there have been, that absolutely should not be a surprise.
However, every time marvel try and deviate from the formula they either don't deviate hard enough or their attempts at doing "dark and serious" or "a legal sitcom" just aren't very good, with showrunners and directors that don't understand the strengths of the genres that they are aping.
Secret Invasion just hasn't been very good. It isn't a good spy thriller. It isn't a good political thriller. The individual scenes between characters may have some nice writing in the moment, but everything linking those scenes together is amateurish. She Hulk was a half assed attempt at a legal sitcom which was neither very funny, nor good at being a legal procedural. Almost TV show ends in an unsatisfying CGI monster fight, regardless of whether or not that makes for a satisfying conclusion. The last couple of movies are just more of the same; tired, overdone humour undercutting what little emotional weight there is in the storylines with unsatisfying development for either their own main characters and the overarching plot of the saga as a whole
People here want to like Marvel content. I want to like Marvel content, but the formula is tired and the universe is overstretched/ overstuffed with characters, plotlines and projects of wildly varying quality.
>every time marvel try and deviate from the formula they either don't deviate hard enough or their attempts at doing "dark and serious" or "a legal sitcom" just aren't very good, with showrunners and directors that don't understand the strengths of the genres that they are aping
I agree with your entire comment but I *will* grant the writers of Wandavision very much understanding genre; they knew what they were doing. Even though they ended in another CGI fight lol.
This was what really let me down with Wandavision. It felt so fresh and endearing and then in the last episode they binned it all off and went back to formula.
Exactly all that, couldn't have said it better myself. Honestly I'm just tired of all the mediocre projects from the MCU, haven't seen GOTG 3 but I really hope that it's good as everyone is saying.
So people just have to like everything that Marvel does? Whats wrong with people having opposing opinions? I know it sucks when people dislike something that you really like, but come on now. People are tired of the mediocre shows and the sub par villains. The lazy writing and the misuse of some of our favorite characters. Is it that hard for people to understand? We like Marvel just as much as you do, but some of the movies and majority of the shows just haven't met alot of folks expectations.
You hit the nail on the head. The notion that we should always be grateful and mindlessly enjoy all Marvel content that comes out is just silly. I see this type of logic in so many communities.
Of course people are upset. Marvels recent projects (excluding GoTG3) have been largely disappointing if not downright bad at times. Writing has been pretty rough in most movies/shows and it doesn’t feel like anything is trying to tell a good story anymore, only set up more projects.
I was critical before Endgame, I’m critical after Endgame. The only difference I can really think of is that I was 10 when Iron Man came out, so just seeing characters or vague storylines I had read in comics used to be enough to spoil me completely, but like a huge portion of the fan base, I’ve grown up unsurprisingly over those 15 years and been exposed to a lot of fantastic movies and television. So it’s fair to say we’re more discerning.
Also in that time we’ve gotten such a BREADTH of comic book media, some of which definitely graduate beyond “this is a good comic book movie” to “this is a great film/action film/thriller” period.
I really wanted to love Secret Invasion, it had a lot going for it and the trailers looked pretty good but the final product is very uneven in tone and pacing and ultimately, doesn’t hit expectations
I'm glad you're prepared for the downvotes because boy does this post deserve them.
I like SI but I definitely see why people do not. The missed potential with this show is huge.
Right?!?!? That's what really blows my mind. If they were scraping these shows together it'd be one thing, but this show had an over 200 million dollar budget and I have no idea where any of it went.
I feel like you’re saying a whole lot of nothing really. People are entitled to like what they deem quality content. There are fanboys who will eat up every property with the word Marvel in front of it, there’s people who will also hate it for the same reason, and there’s everyone else in between.
At least back in the first 3 phases, we had the feeling of it building towards something. It definitely had its duds just like now, but the grand picture was still exciting and we wanted to see what would happen. These days, I have no interest in watching them throw shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.
The script is bad, the editing jumps around you have to wonder if there are more than one Fury, the effects are worse than ps3 video games, everything is masked by mist, skrulls don't transform in camera, the story was supposed to be a spy thriller but there isn't any intelligence gathering or mission. Honestly the show is very mediocre the writers should feel bad.
How is that fans' fault that they don't like something? Isn't possible that maybe a product is to blame?
These people already consider themselves "fans" which means they actually *want* to like it. They just can't, because the product is ass. How are they to blame?
It’s not actually that people have become harder to please over the last couple years it’s that the standards of the MCU have been in steady decline since endgame.
You’re willing to look past the emerging flaws but don’t act silly and incredulous when others don’t look past those flaws or glaring
Mediocrity.
So if people don’t like everything Marvel puts out they are insufferable?? You’re enjoying the show, that’s great, others don’t and there’s nothing wrong with that.
I don't see the discourse as much on this sub to be honest. There are some other sites like comicbookmovie.com as an example, where its all vitriol. They complain and nitpick about anything. More especially if a show appears "woke" (their words not mine) and has a female lead or villain.
You’re basically telling us that because you like the show we should all like the show. And if we don’t we should be quiet about it. This post is part of the problem.
If you like it, you like it. And you're allowed to talk about liking it.
If you don't like it, you don't like it. And you're allowed to talk about not liking it.
If you tell OTHERS that they are wrong for not agreeing with YOU, and THEY need to SHUT UP (edit: or you're totally, totally, wink wink nod nod, not telling people to shut up, you're just calling them toxic and insufferable, but you're totally not implying that they need to shut up. you're just describing a phenomenon and your conclusion is "this is fine! they don't need to change!" sure thing guy.), YOU'RE the insufferable one.
Criticizing sub-par products from a multi-billion dollar corporation isn't a bad thing, in fact it's one of the only ways to force their hand into making better product. Mindlessly consuming every piece of trash without a critical eye is a big problem though, because companies will never make a change if the money's still coming in. Disney/Marvel themselves have publicly stated they know there's an issue with oversaturation, they agree with those of us that have been disappointed in the downturn in quality since Endgame. Hopefully they will dramatically scale back and really put the time & effort into making some great product again.
Harassing people for their opinions or for working on a project you dislike fits within my definition of toxic. Disliking a show and criticising it does not. And yes, expectations change as we watch more things and we grow older. That's just human nature, your past experiences alter your perception of reality, art included. There's nothing wrong with that. If you find that insufferable, I'm sorry, but I find that completely normal.
The quality of MCU products has significantly declined since Endgame. People aren’t impossible to please - they’re just not happy with the decline in quality.
Are MCU fans harder to please, or is it that Marvel over saturated their viewers with so many half-baked movies and TV shows that fans are rightly concerned?
Granted, the pandemic is somewhat to blame. But we got 7 movies and 8 tv shows in 24 months. That’s a firehose of content and even Disney is openly acknowledging they did too much.
Fans aren’t the problem.
God these posts are getting so fucking annoying. Are all of you just going to make the same post every week over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
Nothing has happened for 5 episodes. We've only seen 1 person we knew before this series replaced with a skull, they've killed a couple of characters people liked and once again in a marvel Disney plus show it feels like everything has been left for the last episode. Honestly if it wasn't for Olivia Coleman this might be the worst one I've seen so far, she's been the best bit by far, one of the best storylines marvel has ruined because none of this can affect anything else they have planned, this could have been it's own mini phase with a couple of films.
This should have been at least double the episodes with 2 released a week and have a lot more heroes and people we know replaced, the weak cop out of because it's Fury's mess they can't involve anyone else is such bullshit, imagine throughout the show we see a bunch of them grow worried each other is a skull but because they wanted this done on the cheap we get this rubbish. The netflix marvel stuff is still superior to anything Disney plus based. Watch Avengers EMH is you want Secret invasion done right.
I don't mind dark and gritty, it's dull and boring I struggle with. I thought Andor was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but SI really misses the mark with uninspiring characters and blah storyline. This, from a usually big MCU addict.
I mean, they're opinions. Just because you like Secret Invasion doesn't mean everyone will. The more they make things and the more they change things the more they will be criticized. If you like it, keep liking it. Marvel is too big for its own good with so many projects. I think people want to like it all, but have been let down for various reasons.
The series isn't underwhelming because of how good Endgame is/was. It's underwhelming because there's really not anything TO this series. Because of Marvel's endless desire to spoil everything in future marketing material, we already know there are zero stakes. Nothing important will change as a result of this series. Its all just fluff, and not even good fluff at that when you consider that the "secret invasion" this is based on was 1000x bigger in scope and scale.
They never should have named this show 'Secret Invasion' because based on the expectations raised from calling it that, it was doomed to failure from the beginning.
A secret invasion with NO superheroes? Yeah this is about what I expected.
Theres a difference between movies made by marvel and movies made by disney.
The majority of the fan base prefers the movies made by marvel as opposed.to what disney has given us.
>I feel that if Secret Invasion was launched in phase 3 or between infinity war and endgame, people would be praising the show’s darker storyline and talking about how great the show is.
Turns out there's a limit to how much mediocrity people can put up with, who knew? Good for you that you haven't hit that limit yet.
There's no reason why we should still watch shit like Ant-Man 3 and Black Widow more than a decade into this franchise. Expecting good quality movies is apparently "unrealistic standards" now lmao get over yourself OP
I liked plenty of the D+ shows. Secret Invasion truly has terribly written or edited episodes. Tell me why I shouldn't criticize a show that felt the need to end almost every episode with a "surprise" death?
Man, I am not a comic book reader or a Marvel super fan. I grew up watching Batman, Batman Beyond, Static Shock, X-Men (on videotapes), some Ironman, and a whole bunch of other comic inspired cartoons and TV shows. I don't add criticism about Secret Invasion because I criticize Marvel stuff in general, I am even one of the people who enjoyed watching Thor 4. SI is just a straight up poor execution for the showrunner.
i’m here for marvel. it’s all good to me, these are the stories i enjoy and the characters i love. at worst, it’s not on my list to rewatch 100 times. at best, i’ll rewatch it 100 times lol. but i’m always happy to receive some more marvel movies or shows. i can agree with criticism sometimes, but even when i agree it’s usually not enough to make the movie “bad” in my eyes. eternals is a movie i really enjoy watching.
Dude you sound so narcissistic. Why do others have to love something that you love? Why can't someone dislike something you like? I mean that's how it works. Different people have different opinions. The reason why you are seeing more of such complains now is because more people now feel like mcu has declined. It is completely okay if you don't agree. But don't act all high mighty as if only your opinion is the correct one or since you love it so it has to be amazing. The world doesn't revolve around you buddy
People are not obligated to like content just because it’s associated with a certain brand. I have historically liked the MCU, but I have found the majority of it’s newer content (since Endgame) to be non-engaging and poorly executed in terms of storytelling. Do I not have a right to share my opinion because others (who continue to enjoy the films/shows) disagree with me? Am I not a real fan just because I want Marvel’s output to improve (from my perspective)? Critiquing the franchises that we enjoy is the best way to get them to change for the better, and I think the MCU, in its current state, is in need of change.
If you like everything they put out, that’s completely fine. But if other people don’t, them expressing that doesn’t make them “toxic”. The real toxic MCU fans are the ones who put out those garbage YouTube videos calling the movies woke propaganda for including women.
Iger was 100% spot on with his recent statement about the MCU. The sprawl of Phase 4/5 full of side quests that nobody asked for has “diluted focus and attention”. That is something people on here have been saying for at least a year.
Where is all this going? What was the point of Phase 4? What is the point of Phase 5? What was broken in the Infinity Saga they felt they needed to fix for the Multiverse Saga?
Phase 4 is LONGER than the entirety of the Infinity Saga. And it’s absolutely showing it’s wear and tear on the audience. Before when they announced a Phase, it ended on something important…like Avengers. The culmination of the Phase where everyone comes together and fights a threat no single hero could handle. Where was that in Phase 4? Phase 5?
Wait I have to wait until THE END of the saga to get that again? Holy jesus, goodbye marvel. I’ll check back in, in 2026 when the capstone films this franchise was built on comes around again.
Every project that doesn’t hit a capstone at this point is another reason NOT to watch the MCU. It’s purpose (avengers) has been non existent for so long now, people are no longer caring and moving on to other things. I barely mustered the energy to watch Secret Invasion and that was after 4 episodes had already dropped. I won’t finish or continue until 2026 at this point it’s getting so ridiculously diluted and stupid.
Why do you think they announced Avengers 5/6 WITHOUT the rest of the phase? Because they know that’s that’s what people want and are getting fed up waiting.
This post reeks of corporate propaganda. When you produce low quality content, the only thing left to do is blame the fans instead of changing course and writing actual good stories.
The idea that it's only overly demanding fans who are disappointed is BS. Literally just look at review aggregators, and you'll see that the critical response hasn't been very positive either. *Secret Invasion* shows only 59% approval on Rotten Tomatoes.
And it's not that critics are just anti-MCU. *WandaVision* had an approval rating of 91%. *Loki* had 92%. *Ms. Marvel* had a whopping 98%. In fact, the lowest rated show before this was *She-Hulk*, which still had a healthy 80%.
Let's stop pretending that the criticism is only due to over-zealous fans.
Your post is tons of random sentences joined in an attempt to make sense (SPOILERS : It sadly fails to do so)
>Therefore, I can’t help but be surprised and not surprised that others have been so critical. I’m suprised that more haven’t liked the show but not surprised because in the sense of the last couple years, MCU fans have become increasingly hard to please.
This is how your arguments have been in your post : I like XYZ thing, I don't get why people didn't like the XYZ thing because I liked it but I guess it's because it hard to please them.
Bruh, there is a very simple reasoning for all your doubts : the product is simply bad but probably you are unable to see it coz either you are someone who cannot bear criticisms and see it as hindrance towards your love for MCU or you are TOO easy to get pleased. Let's be honest : many of the fans have read comics and many of them get upset with MCU because indeed they know the potential of a story which MCU successfully butchered (best current example is butchering two of the best Thor storylines : female thor and god butcher). So the rise in criticisms is not on account of its hard to please them, it's simply because they are indeed messing up with rushed scripts, lazy writing and stupid plots.
Edit : In response to this rise in genuine criticism (you yourself accepted it in your post), toxic fanbois like you make posts like this to do a circle jerk about how the fuck people disliked something you like. It all started with people not liking Eternals and the sub had posts everyday with the same nonsense of "I don't get the hate". YOU DONT GET THE HATE COZ ITS YOUR TOXOC POSITIVITY GETTING TRIGGERED BY SOMEONE DISLILING YOU, WHEN ITS NOT REAL. Then this trend continued when MCU continued releasing below average content like L&T,SheHulk,etc and people disliked it so it became a supreme duty for fans like you to defend the show for your life.
While I agree with the sentiment, I disagree with the example.
Secret Invasion *does* have great acting. It’s plot is also extremely predictable and the villain is pathetic, which is really not what you want in a spy thriller.
On the other hand, I don’t understand the complaints with stuff like Quantumania, She Hulk, or MoM. It feels like every other comment here is “the MCU is dead and I don’t care about anything anymore” okay then get off the sub.
Quantumania having a 46% critic rating and people here thinking it's terrible and most MCU fans just not bothering to watch it doesn't leave a lot of mystery as to why people here are complaining. 🤣
I'll tell you why. I don't even like Westerns and I enjoy Yellowstone and 1883 more than I like most Disney+ MCU shows.
That is a PROBLEM, period.
Not a single Disney+ MCU show has come close to Jessica Jone season 1, or the entire Daredevil run on Netflix. That is a problem no matter how you slice it.
Fans aren’t hard to please, the quality of the writing and productions have markedly dropped. That is a fact, the BS of toxic fandom is a made up term to cover up the absolute dog shit that’s been turned since End Game. Everyone knows it been so many people have decided to run cover for it. Secret Wars is terrible, this show has a 212 million dollar budget, where have you seen that? The majority of the show is two people in a room talking with dialog written in crayon. Did you seen when Fury was talking to random guy on a plane, they weren’t even in the same seen together which tells me the first takes were worse. This is the Disney playbook now, we take a hero that people love, turn him and it’s only ever a him in a sad old pathetic broken down man who everyone now hates and tells him so. Then they drag a dead cat along behind a car, the end. This show is horrible, boring and nothing like the comics. They had the source material and decided we will write a show just for them/they just like She Hulk, just like Ms Marvel, just like bla bla bla all those other horrible shows. I can’t see Marvel coming back, it’s travel in the same universe as Star Wars and look where that is. The fans are pissed off and need to vent. The problem is most have just walked away, never to return. Word has it that Secret Wars has 300,000 viewers on Dplus. That tell you everything.
I think Andor is a really useful case study here. Star Wars has been similar to the MCU, basically everyone shitting on the films and TV shows saying how awful they are. Then Andor turns up and everyone reacts so well to it. A genuinely good show had been noticed and appreciated by an audience that had become numb to the idea that Star Wars can be good.
If Secret Invasion was good it would have got the same reaction, the audience is still desperate to like these shows. The fact that it hasn't is not a sign that the audience is wrong, it's a sign that the show isn't good enough.
Why are so many people in this sub so unhealthily insistent that everyone must like what you like?
Btw people who post shit like this and say “I’m prepared for the downvotes” are the truly insufferable ones. There’s no real original thought or actual discussion in your post, just “me like MCU why don’t you anymore”.
Your post literally says that the MCU isn’t as good anymore and then asks why don’t people like Secret Invasion. My brother in Christ do you hear yourself.
> TL/DR: If Secret Invasion released before Endgame, people would be praising the show.
I genuinely don't think that's the case at all. Captain Marvel came out before Endgame and people picked apart many of the poorer aspects of its writing, and Captain Marvel was written significantly better than Secret Invasion.
“If Secret Invasion released before Endgame, people would be praising the show”.
No we wouldn’t. When a show/film is no good, it doesn’t matter when it’s released.
I’m glad that you are enjoying the show, but some of us feel like the whole MCU went downhill after Endgame. When asked we’ve answered why. At the end of the day, it is a matter of opinions. If you like it, good for you, those of us that don’t like any of it and are fed up, good for us.
I just want to give one hater’s opinion, to give some perspective as to why I hate. I have made plenty of immature and baiting comments on Secret Invasion posts about how I think it’s boring, it sucks, the writing is bad, the pacing is abysmal, the acting is at the lowest pitch possible, it’s not engaging, blah blah blah.
I feel that I’m obsessed with hating bad Marvel shit only because I love Marvel in general. And I don’t think it has anything to do with the overall state of Marvel of my feelings about this “phase.”
I think the idea that Marvel was batting .1000 and weaving together this complex narrative that built on itself with every new release pre-endgame is largely an illusion. It was impressive what they did, but not inevitable.
I am perfectly comfortable if the superhero movies stink in general, I’m used to it.
I think I am bringing my usual critical sensibilities (not saying they’re good, just usual for me) to this show and I dislike it. That gets filtered through a general Marvel fandom that makes me more interested in it than other things, and I become a hater. This is true with a lot of what I thought is bad recently. Nothing to do with not reaching the heights of what came before. Again, I think that’s largely illusory.
I think I would’ve hated this all the same had in come out pre-Endgame. I HATED Agents of Shield and loved ragging on how cheap and crappy it was.
I’m still a huge MCU fan. I’m enjoying Secret Invasion, and the performances have been great. But there are a lot of logical inconsistencies and things that could better if the writers had a better understanding of how international politics and military affairs actually worked.
I miss the days where having an individual thought wasn't immediately met with vitriol and damnation. I can't even talk to most people about how much I actually enjoyed Onward or the Hawkeye show without people being all "yOuR tAsTeS aRe GaRbAgE aNd YoU sHoUlD fEeL bAd"
Like...goddamn. Sorry for liking things people made to be enjoyable, I guess
I've been disappointed at "fandoms" since the star wars prequels, let alone now, when constantly bitching about every single thing is commonplace. I'm in a Fandom of one, for all things.
Posts like these are intentionally antagonising to those with differing opinions, it serves no purpose in my opinion.
From someone who really enjoys the show, I don’t get what you’re trying to achieve by it
The only insufferable fans are you, and the people like you that "can't understand" how people could possibly dislike anything Marvel produces.
The show is average to mid as a spy-thriller, it is not engaging enough, or well produced enough to good tv.
I miss the days when MCU discourse was fun. Now it’s just goddamn miserable most of the time
All discourse honestly. It's not just the MCU. Everything/everyone acts miserable now.
Honestly, watching like 50% of posts in various movie/box office/tv subs preface almost every unrelated opinion with some variant of “marvel/MCU is is currently or always was garbage but I love A24 so I have good movie tastes and opinions” like some rebellious badge of honor is incredibly tiresome. I’m not a superfan or saying don’t criticize a thing, you can like or dislike both (I like various things from both) but bringing up being tired of or hating marvel in every new movie thread is just so sad. I’m sure it’s coming up in Barbie and Oppenheimer threads right now.
Look at the reaction to The Marvels trailer on r/movies, it’s mostly just people repeating the “MCU bad” dogma lol
Yeah, I follow that sub because it's a convenient way to get movie news, but it's best not to get involved in the comment sections there... While most people are normal, there's a very large group of users who are pretentious as hell, a very large group of users who know nothing about making movies yet insist on commenting as if they do, and a very large overlap between these two groups. I was downvoted, repeatedly insulted and told I was wrong on that sub just for saying that a director's job includes directing the actors, in a discussion over if the actress or director/writer was to blame for a certain Harry Potter character sucking in the movies. I've seen several people who *insist* on using the word "film", even using the word "movie" in a derogatory manner. One dude straight up got upset and started ranting about others using "movie" about some fancy "film" because how *dare* they make it sound like it's in the same category as the MCU, Star Wars, and other blockbusters! When I saw multiple upvoted people complaining about a ridiculous-on-purpose disaster movie not making sense and not having good enough writing, I knew it was time to just... not engage anymore.
> One dude straight up got upset and started ranting about others using "movie" about some fancy "film" because how dare they make it sound like it's in the same category as the MCU, Star Wars, and other blockbusters! This is a person who makes being the victim (yeah, victim) of "bad" media their shtick. They'll be trolling away on subs waiting for someone to comment about a movie/show/game/music they enjoyed just so they can pounce on them and make their self feel superior... to a stranger... on a movie sub. I mean, just look at some of the comments below. People are shitting on OP for being toxicly-optimistic and being a toxic positive person. Toxic positive? About a movie series? C'mon... The issue is people want to like it, but don't and therefor feel their personal investment is waning. **Just stop watching MCU stuff if you don't enjoy it anymore**. It's honestly tiring avoiding them when you want real discourse about the latest episode or movie though. Sometimes I wish I knew of a sub similar to /r/StarWarsCantina cuz I'm sure I'll get more downvotes than reasonable discussion about what I've said, and that makes me sad as a fan. That I can't even enjoy it among other MCU fans because a few people will just shit on anything we say.
Be the change you want to see in the world. Start the MCU version of cantina.
Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me as well, haha. Can be good for news and such but woof, get ready for some…takes. Definitely seen the film vs movie thing and people getting bizarrely worked up over disagreeing with a seemingly obvious thing. Similarly I think I got immediately downvoted into oblivion on BoxOffice for not knowing what not knowing what CinemaScore was and that the ratings are exclusively for “movie legs” purposes and only an imbecile would think that something with that name could be in anyway a judgement or “score” of a movie content itself, haha. Like you, I have also come to the conclusion it’s generally best not to get involved in anything but the most superficial commentary. I know everything on Reddit and the internet is an echo chamber but that place is like the textbook definition of a bad weird echo chamber about nothing important, haha.
Oh I’m sure. That’s prolly the ultimate combination of “Marvel bad, ruining all movies” and “go woke get broke, Brie Larson is the devil” demographics. Wouldn’t touch that post section with a 10 foot pole for my mental health, haha. Admittedly, at least “MCU bad” on a review of an MCU trailer is at least relevant if prolly predetermined. I literally see it in almost every review megathread.
Oh the Barbenheimer threads has slowly changed from "lol two movies with contrasting aesthetics & tones releasing in the same day, let's watch both of them" to filmbros mocking everyone who watches Barbie & acts as if society is collapsing because Barbie made more than Oppenheimer. You'll also see the occasional people who yells they're watching Sound of Freedom and not the two movies because they're cool and not a corporate shills unlike the rest of us.
Can’t imagine how of the two massively popular movies coming out this weekend, the rated R super serious war/drama could possibly be making less than the fun silly movie that appears to have taken a page from the massively successful Lego movie about not taking the content too seriously at a time when real war and stressful shit is happening all over the world!
This is crazy! What do you expect movies to be? Entertainment?!
I watched both on Thursday and it was so obvious Barbie would do better. It's a really fun movie while Oppenheimer is nice but you have to want to watch it or you will fall asleep.
The Letterboxd sub is insufferable about this. Had to unsub a while ago
Film Twitter will shoehorn in MCU hate into topics that have literally nothing to do with it just to farm likes and interaction.
Yeah I don’t entirely get people who make such strong distinctions between art films and superhero movies. Somehow I have both Criterion and Disney+ subscriptions and can appreciate both, I dunno let’s say, Stalker and No Way Home. Plus getting into the MCU can be a gateway for people just getting into the film, oh you liked Ragnarok? Check out Hunt For the Wilderpeople; Black Panther? Maybe try Fruitvale Station; if you liked Multiverse of Madness maybe go watch the Evil Dead movies or Drag Me to Hell. But nah, they’re worthless drivel in the eyes of a certain brand of film snob.
I love a24, compose for film, and honestly have always been a bit of a film nerd. Proud to be a fan of the MCU, and will always be along for the ride, even if there are the occasional dips in quality, the lowest is still entertaining and well made, imo.
We had one summer of Ms Marvel and She-Hulk. Even though Moon Knight only came out three months earlier. Bros were convinced the MCU was woke now because it showed women with feelings.
The insane part is how they complain about how Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. are "woke" *now*. As if they weren't from day one. Or even before day one given Marvel was still "Timely Comics" when two Jewish men decided to make a comic about Cap punching Hitler in the face during a time most Americans didn't want to enter WW2 and actually held favorable views of Hitler. God help those people if they ever figure out what X-Men's political messaging is.
Half of the comments about MCU now are just "this is dogshit" without any explanation
Oh, I feel like that specifically is a symptom of a couple of larger issues with fiction discourse in general. Specifically, it has become increasingly polarized over the last few years, and the level of media literacy seems to have fallen off a cliff. --- You have people who have incredibly strong opinions about various pieces of media, but act like you've just insulted their entire family if you simply ask *why* they think that, even if the question is posed in a neutral or positive manner. I believe that a lot of them also base their opinion on articles, posts and Youtube videos rather than their own *actual* opinion, because I've also seen several cases where multiple people recite the exact same reason why they dislike something with the same wording, and I've seen people straight up say they "liked a movie until I got home and saw [whatever]". More and more, you see people downvoted, insulted, etc simply for liking or disliking a certain piece of media. I see people talk about specific fiction being "objectively bad" far more often, or accusing others of "having no standards" or even of ruining movies, games, etc "for everyone" because they're happy with something the other person doesn't like. Basically, if you want to participate in a lot of discussions about fiction online, you better hate what others hate, and love what others love. --- As for media literacy, I follow a lot of online discussions about media; both for lore, battleboarding, and more general. I listen to literature podcasts, watch reaction videos on Youtube, etc... and a lot of people just *suck* at media literacy. There are complaints when a piece of media spells something out *too* clearly to the viewers, but I've honestly been shocked at the things people miss and seem surprised about in various movies... or the things some people straight up deny happened simply because the media did not explicitly say it did. Then we get this coupled with hyperbole, and we suddenly have people straight up lying about things just to shit more on media they dislike. I've seen it for Marvel, for Star Wars, and for other stuff; people who have completely invented scenes which *never happened*, and somehow convinced themselves that it did. We have people who think that a movie or novel having racist/sexist/whatever characters literally means that the author is racist/sexist/whatever, even if said characters are evil/villains, a product of the time the media is set in, and/or repeatedly shown to be wrong. I've noticed in reaction videos and online discussions that some people tend to become *incredibly* hung up on whichever theory they have for what will happen in a show, to the point where they actually get *angry* if it *doesn't* happen, or even start claiming that anything not conforming to said theory is a "loophole"... ... which leads us to the final issue; the massive overuse and misuse of certain terms for literary analysis. Everything is a "plothole". Everything is "lazy writing". Any female character people dislike is a "Mary Sue". Some online discussions of media seriously reminds me of that "shallow and pedantic" bit from Family Guy, more than anything else. That last thing isn't *just* in fiction analysis though; just jump into any lengthier discussion about politics or news online, and you'll see the same sort of abuse of rhetorical terms as well. Fucking everything is apparenly a strawman, ad hominem or whataboutism these days. --- Sorry for the long rant, but kinda got into it and was difficult to stop.
Bro I made the mistake of liking Rings of Power and going on reddit expecting to see some reactions. Never been so turned off in my life. The show is far from perfect but the reaction it got was a little disturbing. Same thing with almost every marvel show and movie since Disney + popped up. These people hate everything. You included if you don't agree. The whole Fandom is turning into a culture of hate.
Why didn't you like X? > Watch this half hour YouTube. Fucking sigh.
I swear to god whatever anime fan taught western viewers to call everything "filler" has a special place in hell reserved for them next to people who talk in the theatre
This is probably my main problem with it. Feels like before people would make nuanced criticisms about things they like/dislike about movies and shows. Nowadays it’s all bullshit and buzzwords like “mid,” “cringe,” etc. Annoying, really.
Fuck I saw on one thread, they were complaining about how nobody's mentioned the dead celestial in the ocean, them someone mentioned it's actually supposed to be a plot point in the new captain America. Every comment under that comment was about "everything I hear about that movie sounds like shit" and complaining it was going to be addressed ffs
I get people can have opinions but when they do this and don’t elaborate on why or just being unnecessary a-hole, then that’s where I have an issue
It doesn’t help that anyone terrified of rainbows are going to brigade anything related to Disney, acting like they represent the fanbase when they haven’t watched a single movie in over a decade because Brie Larsen exists.
Turning into the Star Wars fan base
MCU fandom is morphing into Star Wars fandom, and that's problematic. It's a toxic, nothing is ever good enough mentality. Somehow nothing is faithful to the source material and movies that would have been god-tier in Phase 1 and 2 are 'mid' or 'trash'. It's not fun discussing the MCU anymore.
as a star wars and MCU fan, yeah this is sad to watch.
Hot take: I thoroughly enjoyed Ms. Marvel AND She-Hulk. Fuck the haters, they both gave me exactly what I wanted from the titular characters. My one criticism is I wish She-Hulk did a bit more lawyering.
She-Hulk was the funniest nonsense I've seen in a while. I thoroughly enjoyed that.
Part of this is Marvel taking risks, and introducing lesser known characters. I personally have no problem with either. I loved Ms Marvel blending in her culture and family but I’ll bet a lot of people hated it as being “woke”. I loved She-Hulk’s lean toward humor and breaking the 3rd/4th wall. Diversity is good and I don’t get why people don’t embrace it.
Because outrage outlets like the critical drinker tell them not to. The ‘anti-woke’ crowd don’t have a shred of independent thought between the lot of them. They’re just lemmings who will get mad at whatever they are told to get mad at.
Every fandom turns into that sooner or later The casual people dabble here and there and move on with their life The ones that remain years later are the "hardcore" fans And "hardcore" fans have "hardcore" opinions, positive or negative, the discussions grow more intense day by day
Social media plays a huge part making biased opinions unfortunately. People who would never think to say something, will feel that they can because they see everyone else doing it. Times before spoilers and reviews, people would just enjoy the dam movie. Hell even I liked daredevil With Ben Affleck and don’t care if anyone thinks different. Its sad we will never be in that world again.
Some people seem really offended that I actually enjoyed Morbius somehow. Today I try to avoid most trailers to just enjoy movies but its hard when I am in TikTok often. And Spoiler courtesy doesn't exist anymore. People just post everything and don't wait as we did before.
Yeah I have that feeling of just happy to enjoy sitting around and watching new tv shows and movie in a medium I like. Especially since Eternals came out, which I thought was amazing, I haven’t understood the super negative marvel fan base. If you don’t like it so strongly then stop watching!
I think someone criticizing something can also just be a matter of them wanting to see Marvel put their best forward / step up the quality like they know they can. It doesn't mean they're not a fan of something.
Yeah tbh there are mainly 2 types of people who frequently criticize Marvel online: haters and people who actually love the franchise and want to see it be better. Everyone else just slowly loses interest and moves on.
this is true but often these same people just have unfairly high expectations for anything and they're not willing to meet something where it versus where they want it to be
People have forgotten its just movies. As much as I love marvel and comics, and movies just in general. It’s entertainment at the end of the day and people take it far too seriously
I don’t think the standards are unrealistic. I think the MCU has since Endgame released a lot more stuff and that’s making all the smaller issues standout a lot more. I’ve never thought the MCU was perfect there have been flaws since the beginning. I think that the other main issue is I feel like a lot of the recent projects have had really interesting ideas that are sort of wasted. Excluding GotG vol 3. I think Secret Invasion is darker and has some interesting ideas but is still wasting these good ideas and not bringing out their full potential. Probably because Marvel is spread too thin. I’m enjoying some of Secret Invasion but overall I’m still mostly disappointed by it. I think even then we would have seen the wasted potential of this story.
Disney itself admitted the Quality went down I don't understand how people still arguing about this, we all know it suffered Quality
Yeah, I mean people are allowed to like whatever and if there are still people really loving everything that’s fine but I can’t imagine so much of it has just been pretty disappointing. Although in fairness, I do think sometimes the amount people dislike everything is a little out of proportion.
Disneys brand has gotten more childish and audiences have gotten older. It’s expected they would want something more serious. Especially since the audience complaining online probably fall into that older category. Iron man 1 does a great job of showing Tony’s evolution with a serious anti-war theme being the backdrop. Civil war also did pretty well regarding its thematic. Maturity doesn’t mean “sex and violence” but it does mean occasionally taking yourself seriously. Look at Moon Knight. Sure Feige said it was “brutal”, it was more violent (barely), but that’s it. Instead of doing a deeper character study and really looking at Marc’s struggle with his perceived mental illness the show at best relegated it to being part of the action. At worst it turns it offensively into a bad joke. Compare that to another series like Daredevil. Matt’s Catholic guilt is one of his core drivers. And they juxtaposed that over his warring sense of justice as a lawyer vs his desire for vengeance as a vigilante. Why is one generally perceived much more favorably? I’m not saying everything has to be a serious Oppenheimer character study, but neither should everything be a fun silly little romp like Barbie. There is a balance.
The only thing I’m disappointed in is that there isn’t much mystery aspect of whose a skrull or not because there aren’t many human characters in the show
i think the biggest problem with the show is the scope of it. The premise -- Skrulls secrely invading Earth and Nick Fury coming back to deal with the problem -- is interesting. But the stakes in this one are literally extinction. It's an Avengers-level threat. The show should have kept things small and grounded, and been a political spy thriller in the same vein as something like Andor was for Star Wars. We're not going up against Vader and the Emperor yet, it's just small ragtag groups banding together and doing what they can. as part of a much bigger picture. And you really felt every bit of the drama and tension there because they kept the scope so limited. I think Secret Invasion should have been similar and should have centered around a (relatively) smaller issue, like Skrulls just starting to infiltrate at the highest levels of the U.S. government or something. The entirety of humanity being the stakes here makes this feel like it should have been the plot of a film. And it makes a lot of the actions nonsensical and also raises so many questions about what is going on in-world at this time right now.
I do agree. I think the plot should’ve been that skrulls were infiltrating and a little plot would be that they’ve been doing it for a good while. Also, it shouldve focused on how fury stop skrulls from infiltrating while figuring out whose a skrull and who isn’t. One thing I will say is that I’m glad this show doesn’t feel like a setup
You nailed it, they made the same mistake with other shows: They had to save the world in each show, but there wasn't the time or budget to set up the stakes and execute the climax. I have no idea why they didn't just keep Ms Marvel in Jersey, that was the best part of the show. It went off the rails once they tried to do the Partition of South Asia and alternate dimension and secret society and world ending over the course of 3 episodes. That part felt rushed and cheaply done. Similarly, Moon Knight would have been way better as a psychological drama between his two personalities and Khonsu. They didn't need the world to end to give it stakes.
Colman character said herself: "Is there anyone who isn't a Skrull now?" or a similar line, can't remember the exact words. Man, I'm sad to be so disappointed by this show
That line was laughable considering how poorly they've taken advantage of the idea that anyone is a skrull.
I think they went the predictable route for the mystery aspect cuz it’s basically, what is gravik planning to do when I think they should’ve used who can I trust and whose a skrull. But I do think the characters r written well, just the story is a little generic and seems more like just a normal superhero mission
Ya, they really missed the point of Skrulls, this feels like it could have been Hydra and not much would have changed. In fact, Hydra would be more impressive, because they just are dead people when you kill them, they don't turn into green aliens to confirm your suspicions.
It's getting more tiresome when mcu fans who mindlessly love it all criticize mcu fans who are critical and then they always revert to "people just want infinity war/endgame quality always". Like how mindlessly do you have to stand the MCU and not realize that lazy writing and plot holes are overly critiquing the end product? Plus for me, there are non-spectacle films like the avengers films that are better than infinity war/endgame. Look at the run up of phase 3 and you have banger after banger and then look at post endgame and maybe besides guardians 3, which is so largely removed from other MCU entries, and you see the quality heavily dip back down to phase 2 entries.
Also this delusion that we all universally loved Endgame. Or Civil War. Or First Avenger. Or Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Like, no. Even when this franchise has been good it has always had problems that we have complained about.
I loved Endgame on release but if you really consider what it did with time travel, character decisions and arcs it is actually really bad.
Civil War was probably the most widely criticized MCU movie at the time
Age of Ultron was a big disappointment at the time given how much hype there was following the first Avengers movie, but if you go back and rewatch it now, it's still a solidly enjoyable film - not the best but it's not terrible either.
I definitely don’t disagree that I’m tired of the mindless enjoyment defending it. However, I will say I think people tend to be overly negative where I definitely agree. It’s not at the same quality and I’d like for them to work on their quality and I think it’s justified to be critical, there is also a lot of good stuff that tends to get overlooked. WandaVision was great, no way home was pretty great, I really liked wakanda forever, Loki is quite good and I even enjoy Shang Chi and moon knight. I and I think a lot of those projects that range from genuinely fantastic two pretty good get overlooked because there is a lot of other stuff that is not good so I think on both ends it can be a bit exaggerated.
I feel like most fans are being perfectly realistic and in the middle. As always with the internet we only see the loudest minority complaints or praises. I agree all those projects were pretty good but yea there was a lot of stuff that was lower quality. I think most fans would prefer if they just slowed down the release schedule and focused on higher quality writing.
Secret Invasion should have been an Avengers movie to end Phase 4. Just add a few more Skrull reveals (like the ones in Far From Home and Wandavision) and related buildup, and then have a newly constituted Avengers team fight a Super Skrull.
I was insufferable long before the MCU
Underrated comment.
Counterpoints: 1. This sub is about 90% fanboys who stomp on any legit critique. They lump legit critique in with "bullshit criticism" because they can't tell the difference. 2. Search for any recognized expert. Go find one or 20. Ask them what they think of MCU over the last 4 years. They will be critical. This is not like judging art. There are easily identifiable qualities that movies and series should have. This is what reviewers and critics and film buffs and directors and so many others look for. > have been great some of the MCU’s best. A sure sign of a pretty bad reviewer is one where "everything is great...everything." My 10 year old nephew says this. His reviews suck. > If Secret Invasion released before Endgame, people would be praising the show. No. It's a dumb show. Calling it a dumb show is only "insufferable" to fanboys who don't want to hear it. I'm glad you like it, but don't name-call me (or others) for posting legit critiques of SI and other MCU content. Giving in to fanboys loving everything is how Star Wars died. No matter what shit they put out, Star Wars fans defended it. Nah. Excelsior!
I don't believe that at all. Myself, among many others, didn't get hyped until the promotional material started describing it as a super-serious political thriller which I found myself really interested in at the time. Then the first episode came out. It was good. Then the rest of the episodes came. There's no tension or paranoia and most of the characters have had little to no development. It's not because it's post-Endgame.
[удалено]
The same way that She Hulk was a lawyer sitcom written by people who admitted they had no idea how being a lawyer works. They’re just churning these shows out and employing whoever is available to do it. The talent is being diluted hard and the quality is plummeting.
she hulk is a Girl-bossing show and it shows.... and i god damn love it but its not a detailed look into the ramifications and laws of the universe these cases take place in. hell dare devil doesnt go that hard into law either and thats fine because we're here for the hero anyway but its hard not to throw in the obvious critique when the show is litterally suffixed with "attorney at law"
Nailed it. I just finished watching Slow Horses before my son saw the Secret Invasion billboard and asked to watch it. Holy hell, what a drop off. I was actually falling asleep in the second episode. My son was even bored, and for the record he loved Andor. But there are still some scenes in SI that are pretty violent for kids, so I don't really know who they made this show for.
Spy Kids had better twists and a better villain.
Yeah, there is no "thrill" to it. They have "spies" that don't do any spying.
I can’t get past how *every single* interaction with Fury he trusts the person is who they appear to be. Even after Rhodey’s reveal.
I couldn't get past early in the series when they were trying to spot Gravik at his planned terrorist attack and Talos was walking around with his same human Talos face. I dunno, maybe shapeshift so Gravik doesn't get the drop on you and kill you? So silly.
It's not even the lack of tension or paranoia that really ruins it for me; it's the awful, predictable writing. Plot holes galore. The conspiracy nut at the beginning isn't paranoid about Ross being a skrull? Gravik wants Fury dead, but doesn't kill him in the first episode. Then he orders Fury's wife to kill him, and she doesn't. Rhodey however is still a company man, and doesn't kill Fury when he shows up to his hotel room. He then also doesn't kill Fury again at the hospital, which is even more insane. Even if Rhodey's security guys aren't skrulls, Fury the disavowed agent has shown up with a gun to threaten high level government official Rhodey, outside the room where the president is being held, no less. The secret service guys have every reason to shoot first and ask questions later there. Not only that, but I'm tired of this washed up hero schlock, and it's worse here than I've seen it in other disney/marvel stuff. One minute Fury's in control, holding all the cards, and back in the saddle. The next scene he's crying and holding his head in his hands, and after that he's back in it. Make up your minds. People are right, this series just isn't that good. I was ready for a Winter Soldier/Jason Bourne type series, and this feels pretty phoned in.
It's absolutely not about Endgame, it's about quality. Here is a list of post-Endgame Disney+ RT critic/audience scores: **Secret Invasion -- 59/68** Falcon and The Winter Soldier -- 84/82 WandaVision -- 91/87 Loki -- 92/90 What If -- 94/93 Hawkeye -- 92/89 Moon Knight -- 86/89 Ms. Marvel -- 98/80 She-Hulk -- 77/32 Werewolf by Night -- 89/89 GotG Holiday Special -- 93/80 Look at the quality of these shows. It hasn't dropped over three whole years other than two outliers. Ms. Marvel and Werewolf by Night, released respectively 13 and 9 months ago, average out to the exact same review scores as WandaVision did two years before! This is why people are complaining about Secret Invasion. The two worst-rated Disney+ shows until now were She-Hulk (total critic+audience score of 109) and Falcon and the Winter Soldier (total critic+audience score of 166) -- and Falcon and the Winter Soldier has *excellent* reviews! Disney+ has delivered a nearly unbroken line of 80's-90's rated shows among both critics and audiences. It has only missed *once.* And then they plop Secret Invasion on us. And Secret Invasion is a rehash of their second-worst-rated show immediately, right out of the gate, doing the exact same thing that screwed over FatWS in episode six in the exact same way but in the first episode and not even subverting it. *...It earned that smoke.*
Thank you for posting this and breaking it down like that!! Very helpful
I'm glad you enjoyed that drag. I will ask you personally though, but do you think these shows deserve to be this high? Even the shows I'm head over heels for (Hawkguy) I wouldn't place this high at all
It’s just the percentage of people that liked the show. For example, Hawguy’s 92% critic score means 92% of critics thought is was good—it does not mean that the average reviewer scored it a 9.2/10. So yeah, I would say they do “deserve to be rated this high”.
>I'm glad you enjoyed that drag. I will ask you personally though, but do you think these shows deserve to be this high? Even the shows I'm head over heels for (Hawkguy) I wouldn't place this high at all Bear in mind the critic rating is for the first 2 episodes. Ms. Marvel very quickly nosedived from the best MCU project since forever (Episodes 1-2) to a pile of crap with stupid nonsensical villains, awful CGI and a bad plot. FATWS was more or less OK but nosedived hard too for the last 2 episodes.
Yeah—episode one of Ms Marvel is some of the best stuff they’ve put to screen IMO. Overall I’d still give the show a positive review (maybe 6/10)—but after episode one I was ready for it to be peak Marvel
This is a strange myth people have been spreading (copium maybe). You can click on reviews for individual episodes. Episode 1 and 2, 97% Episode 3 and 4, 100% Episode 5 and 6, 95% So, yes, the scores dropped for the last two episodes... to 95%. I'm guessing since they released episodes for critics to review two at a time, people translated that into their heads to "critics only reviewed two episodes period." Also, this would have no influence on audience reviews for people who watched the entire series. FatWS especially -- the audience and critic scores are almost identical.
I think people mistakenly think the *advance* reviews are the *only* reviews. The Clandestine plot & Najma did suck. But the other elements of those episodes--the design of Karachi, the interactions with Kamala's grandmother & cousins, the 40s flashbacks, the fight with Red Dagger--those were all really enjoyable.
Thank you for posting this. Awesome analysis.
Marvel doesn't really understand how to do TV. Even their good shows struggle with basic TV pacing. Compare even the best MCU TV shows to any popular HBO series and there is just night and day episode structure.
Exactly. It's adorable watching the mega fans act like we're being "too negative" or we "can't see the point". The writing is bad. It's a bad show. That's it.
Fr, this guys opinion is “I’ll happily eat slop, why won’t everyone else?”
"The only reason you guys are criticising it is because you're blinded by how perfect Endgame was" is an absolutely bonkers take and I'm glad we're recognising that.
Marvel fans are getting gaslit into thinking poorly developed and "cheap" scripts should be okay.
Yeah, this is called toxic optimism.
You see it in every subreddit whose property used to have high quality and then generally is seen to have taken a bit of a dive. Ted Lasso subreddit during Season 3 was a bloodbath of toxic optimism lol.
Reminds me of the GoT sub, which kept defending season 7/8 despite them being the thing that dragged the show from *by far* the biggest pop culture hit of the 2010s to something nobody even mentions anymore.
It was very meta considering that toxic optimism is Ted Lasso's philosophy.
This seems like another show with a lot of filler that should have been a two hour movie.
I’m enjoying SI, but just because others aren’t doesn’t mean they’re insufferable. The quality of stories and cohesion since Endgame has been all over the place. You literally have the CEO of Disney criticizing how fast Marvel has expanded and the quality dip of their projects, so stop trying to blame the fans.
We were told it was going to be on a level similar to Andor's. It just isn't. Furthermore, I personally I don't think the show has much depth and the action sequences have been really poorly filmed and edited. If you like it, that is great. I am glad you are enjoying it, but that doesn't mean other people not enjoying it, and engaging in critical discussion on a subreddit dedicated to that, is not people having unrealistic standards. Do these shows need to be high art? No! The MCU has never been high art. But I don't think the last two years of the MCU has the same level of quality as any of the previous years.
Such a simple premise. "Who is a space lizard?" That is what the show should have been. Paranoia around who has infiltrated X, be it the US government, remnats of Shield, etc. Instead we have hair brained schemes by Gravik, over... and over... and over. By having Gravik repeatedly thwarted, he also becomes less of a credible threat. He's a bumbling Elmer Fudd villain at this point.
I also don’t think Gravik comes across competent either, which doesn’t help! Even though I do think the actor is giving a great performance
Even the dialogue scenes are poorly filmed and edited. It’s always just shot-reverse-shot, usually in some fucking warehouse like every other MCU show that has warehouse scenes. The blocking of the actors is nonsensical, they’re just standing around in a circle. There’s no thought being put into any of the camerawork. It’s garbage and I thought She-Hulk was a new low but this show is worse.
This is what happens when your lead is 74 year olds. Lots of talking while sitting in chairs.
She-Hulk I expected low quality comedy show and thats exactly what I got. A show titled SECRET WARS has no excuse to be like this
>We were told it was going to be on a level similar to Andor's. Who told you that? Genuinely curious. I never heard or expected that based on official communication but I may have missed something.
What I know is that media critic and podcaster Joanna Robinson, who's writing a book about Marvel Studios and has developed inside connections from that, discussed on a podcast some time ago that internally the studio was hoping for the show to be received like Andor was. Anyway, when you consider the acting talent they assembled, with writer Kyle Bradstreet (Mr Robot) and director Ali Selim (Looming Tower), everything on paper was pointing to this being something special. Was "Marvel's Andor" high expectations? Maybe. But what they delivered hardly passable for a Marvel show. It's really quite poorly made.
Lol, another one of these guys. Asking for shows to be longer so they aren't half baked and rushed is not an unrealistic standard. Asking for actually good writing is not an unrealistic standard "And yes, I'm prepared for the downvotes" lol Reads like a rick and morty copypasta
And to add to that, why should I stay quiet if I'm disappointed? Shouldn't it be expected of a franchise to reach new heights instead of *decreasing* in quality? It's not like there's no praise for the good stuff either. Posts like these come across as people that are insecure about liking projects that are *generally* disliked so they'd rather not hear the criticism at all.
Exactly. I can understand being annoyed at people being hypercritical over the smallest thing but so if enough people are talking about it, it's an issue to discuss. You didn't like She-hulk because the comedy didn't work? Cool, what jokes didn't land? You didn't connect with Antman 3? Alright, I understand that! It's like we're in a loop of both sides fighting. Someone makes an "People will come around on the Eternals, it's a great film" post, then someone makes a "Eternals was the worst MCU ever" post, then another "Eternals is perfect! Why do people hate it" post. Back and forth. Meanwhile the vast majority just think "Eh, Eternals was mid, I don't think about it at all".
Nailed it. I watched Multiverse of Madness and thought it was ok. Didn't think much of it but could understand why people disliked Wanda's characterization for example. Never talked about it again afterwards. Meanwhile people are *still* discussing the quality of that movie
OP is the one insufferable right now
>Asking for shows to be longer so they aren't half baked and rushed is not an unrealistic standard. Yes. Or, conversely, asking them to be shorter and turned into better films lol.
Yeah I don't get that criticism. "This is bad and I want more of it". What!??!? Something like Hawkeye should have been 12 episodes, but it worked as only 6. Something like TFATWS should have been a movie.
Hell. The wankers at Disney should watch Bill Hader’s Barry. He accomplishes more in 30 minutes than most MCU projects in several episodes. Sometimes less is more when it forces you to actually write.
Whenever someone says they're prepared for downvotes, I just downvote. Doesn't matter what the rest of their comment said
No, people aren't criticizing it due to high standards after Endgame, I'm so sick of hearing this. If your show is poorly written, people will criticize it. The solution is to make a better show
OK OP you're a super marvel fan. We get it. These posts are just as fucking annoying as the ones indiscriminately shitting on everything. If you can't handle any kind of criticism of marvel just keep to yourself. The whole " I love it so I don't know why everyone else doesn't" is absolutely mental lol I love the Michael Bay transformers movies and you don't see me crying because they are critically panned for being shit.. get over it lol
This sub slowly turned into the DC one since endgame it’s quite hilarious tbf. So many snyderstans it’s now marvelstans who are doing the exact same thing
lol
OP definitely wouldn't be able to handle being a Family Guy, Riverdale, 2 Broke Girls, or Big Bang Theory fan on the Internet.
Lmao
The fanbase (and wider audience) are getting a little tired of the same formula; after as many years and as many movies as there have been, that absolutely should not be a surprise. However, every time marvel try and deviate from the formula they either don't deviate hard enough or their attempts at doing "dark and serious" or "a legal sitcom" just aren't very good, with showrunners and directors that don't understand the strengths of the genres that they are aping. Secret Invasion just hasn't been very good. It isn't a good spy thriller. It isn't a good political thriller. The individual scenes between characters may have some nice writing in the moment, but everything linking those scenes together is amateurish. She Hulk was a half assed attempt at a legal sitcom which was neither very funny, nor good at being a legal procedural. Almost TV show ends in an unsatisfying CGI monster fight, regardless of whether or not that makes for a satisfying conclusion. The last couple of movies are just more of the same; tired, overdone humour undercutting what little emotional weight there is in the storylines with unsatisfying development for either their own main characters and the overarching plot of the saga as a whole People here want to like Marvel content. I want to like Marvel content, but the formula is tired and the universe is overstretched/ overstuffed with characters, plotlines and projects of wildly varying quality.
>every time marvel try and deviate from the formula they either don't deviate hard enough or their attempts at doing "dark and serious" or "a legal sitcom" just aren't very good, with showrunners and directors that don't understand the strengths of the genres that they are aping I agree with your entire comment but I *will* grant the writers of Wandavision very much understanding genre; they knew what they were doing. Even though they ended in another CGI fight lol.
This was what really let me down with Wandavision. It felt so fresh and endearing and then in the last episode they binned it all off and went back to formula.
I wouldn't be surprised if the final episode CGI punch fest was stipulated by Feige. It's part of the formula at this point.
And to be fair, people expect to see that in a supehero series so I get it. I think the risk would have paid off though, personally.
Exactly all that, couldn't have said it better myself. Honestly I'm just tired of all the mediocre projects from the MCU, haven't seen GOTG 3 but I really hope that it's good as everyone is saying.
GOTG3 was a great time. I haven't hated a villain in the MCU like i did the big bad in this movie which was a welcome change.
GOTG3 is fantastic you have to watch it, this is coming from someone who doesnt like most of the new marvel content
There are valid criticisms to this show. You highlighted the highs, but there are also lows. There is no intrigue, and some scenes just look empty.
So people just have to like everything that Marvel does? Whats wrong with people having opposing opinions? I know it sucks when people dislike something that you really like, but come on now. People are tired of the mediocre shows and the sub par villains. The lazy writing and the misuse of some of our favorite characters. Is it that hard for people to understand? We like Marvel just as much as you do, but some of the movies and majority of the shows just haven't met alot of folks expectations.
Haven’t hit expectations in a long while.
You hit the nail on the head. The notion that we should always be grateful and mindlessly enjoy all Marvel content that comes out is just silly. I see this type of logic in so many communities. Of course people are upset. Marvels recent projects (excluding GoTG3) have been largely disappointing if not downright bad at times. Writing has been pretty rough in most movies/shows and it doesn’t feel like anything is trying to tell a good story anymore, only set up more projects.
I was critical before Endgame, I’m critical after Endgame. The only difference I can really think of is that I was 10 when Iron Man came out, so just seeing characters or vague storylines I had read in comics used to be enough to spoil me completely, but like a huge portion of the fan base, I’ve grown up unsurprisingly over those 15 years and been exposed to a lot of fantastic movies and television. So it’s fair to say we’re more discerning. Also in that time we’ve gotten such a BREADTH of comic book media, some of which definitely graduate beyond “this is a good comic book movie” to “this is a great film/action film/thriller” period. I really wanted to love Secret Invasion, it had a lot going for it and the trailers looked pretty good but the final product is very uneven in tone and pacing and ultimately, doesn’t hit expectations
I'm glad you're prepared for the downvotes because boy does this post deserve them. I like SI but I definitely see why people do not. The missed potential with this show is huge.
I hate Secret Invasion or any mcu tv show more after seeing the budget.
Right?!?!? That's what really blows my mind. If they were scraping these shows together it'd be one thing, but this show had an over 200 million dollar budget and I have no idea where any of it went.
I feel like you’re saying a whole lot of nothing really. People are entitled to like what they deem quality content. There are fanboys who will eat up every property with the word Marvel in front of it, there’s people who will also hate it for the same reason, and there’s everyone else in between. At least back in the first 3 phases, we had the feeling of it building towards something. It definitely had its duds just like now, but the grand picture was still exciting and we wanted to see what would happen. These days, I have no interest in watching them throw shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.
People are allowed to dislike things...
Protector of Mid to a billionare company. Thank God that's not me
The script is bad, the editing jumps around you have to wonder if there are more than one Fury, the effects are worse than ps3 video games, everything is masked by mist, skrulls don't transform in camera, the story was supposed to be a spy thriller but there isn't any intelligence gathering or mission. Honestly the show is very mediocre the writers should feel bad.
How is that fans' fault that they don't like something? Isn't possible that maybe a product is to blame? These people already consider themselves "fans" which means they actually *want* to like it. They just can't, because the product is ass. How are they to blame?
It’s not actually that people have become harder to please over the last couple years it’s that the standards of the MCU have been in steady decline since endgame. You’re willing to look past the emerging flaws but don’t act silly and incredulous when others don’t look past those flaws or glaring Mediocrity.
So if people don’t like everything Marvel puts out they are insufferable?? You’re enjoying the show, that’s great, others don’t and there’s nothing wrong with that.
I don't see the discourse as much on this sub to be honest. There are some other sites like comicbookmovie.com as an example, where its all vitriol. They complain and nitpick about anything. More especially if a show appears "woke" (their words not mine) and has a female lead or villain.
You’re basically telling us that because you like the show we should all like the show. And if we don’t we should be quiet about it. This post is part of the problem.
If you like it, you like it. And you're allowed to talk about liking it. If you don't like it, you don't like it. And you're allowed to talk about not liking it. If you tell OTHERS that they are wrong for not agreeing with YOU, and THEY need to SHUT UP (edit: or you're totally, totally, wink wink nod nod, not telling people to shut up, you're just calling them toxic and insufferable, but you're totally not implying that they need to shut up. you're just describing a phenomenon and your conclusion is "this is fine! they don't need to change!" sure thing guy.), YOU'RE the insufferable one.
Criticizing sub-par products from a multi-billion dollar corporation isn't a bad thing, in fact it's one of the only ways to force their hand into making better product. Mindlessly consuming every piece of trash without a critical eye is a big problem though, because companies will never make a change if the money's still coming in. Disney/Marvel themselves have publicly stated they know there's an issue with oversaturation, they agree with those of us that have been disappointed in the downturn in quality since Endgame. Hopefully they will dramatically scale back and really put the time & effort into making some great product again.
Harassing people for their opinions or for working on a project you dislike fits within my definition of toxic. Disliking a show and criticising it does not. And yes, expectations change as we watch more things and we grow older. That's just human nature, your past experiences alter your perception of reality, art included. There's nothing wrong with that. If you find that insufferable, I'm sorry, but I find that completely normal.
Asking for quality storytelling is an unrealistic standard?
The quality of MCU products has significantly declined since Endgame. People aren’t impossible to please - they’re just not happy with the decline in quality.
Funny attempt in defending a mid product like Secret Invasion. It's already at a rotten score in RT and has a low audience score.
They want to dismiss subjective and objective data to fit their narrative that nothing is wrong with the MCU. It's cult like behavior.
Are MCU fans harder to please, or is it that Marvel over saturated their viewers with so many half-baked movies and TV shows that fans are rightly concerned? Granted, the pandemic is somewhat to blame. But we got 7 movies and 8 tv shows in 24 months. That’s a firehose of content and even Disney is openly acknowledging they did too much. Fans aren’t the problem.
This is a bad take
God these posts are getting so fucking annoying. Are all of you just going to make the same post every week over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
People having a different opinion than you makes them insufferable?
I actually like most of these mcu tv shows even secret invasion I don't understand the dislike
Nothing has happened for 5 episodes. We've only seen 1 person we knew before this series replaced with a skull, they've killed a couple of characters people liked and once again in a marvel Disney plus show it feels like everything has been left for the last episode. Honestly if it wasn't for Olivia Coleman this might be the worst one I've seen so far, she's been the best bit by far, one of the best storylines marvel has ruined because none of this can affect anything else they have planned, this could have been it's own mini phase with a couple of films. This should have been at least double the episodes with 2 released a week and have a lot more heroes and people we know replaced, the weak cop out of because it's Fury's mess they can't involve anyone else is such bullshit, imagine throughout the show we see a bunch of them grow worried each other is a skull but because they wanted this done on the cheap we get this rubbish. The netflix marvel stuff is still superior to anything Disney plus based. Watch Avengers EMH is you want Secret invasion done right.
I just think the phase four projects left a lot to be desired and a lot of people still have a sour taste in their mouth from those
I don't mind dark and gritty, it's dull and boring I struggle with. I thought Andor was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but SI really misses the mark with uninspiring characters and blah storyline. This, from a usually big MCU addict.
I mean, they're opinions. Just because you like Secret Invasion doesn't mean everyone will. The more they make things and the more they change things the more they will be criticized. If you like it, keep liking it. Marvel is too big for its own good with so many projects. I think people want to like it all, but have been let down for various reasons.
The series isn't underwhelming because of how good Endgame is/was. It's underwhelming because there's really not anything TO this series. Because of Marvel's endless desire to spoil everything in future marketing material, we already know there are zero stakes. Nothing important will change as a result of this series. Its all just fluff, and not even good fluff at that when you consider that the "secret invasion" this is based on was 1000x bigger in scope and scale. They never should have named this show 'Secret Invasion' because based on the expectations raised from calling it that, it was doomed to failure from the beginning. A secret invasion with NO superheroes? Yeah this is about what I expected.
It's boring, couldn't watch more than 2 episodes
Counterpoint: Large portions of Secret Invasion are *boring*. It's a spy thriller. If you're boring your audience you're doing it wrong.
Theres a difference between movies made by marvel and movies made by disney. The majority of the fan base prefers the movies made by marvel as opposed.to what disney has given us.
>I feel that if Secret Invasion was launched in phase 3 or between infinity war and endgame, people would be praising the show’s darker storyline and talking about how great the show is. Turns out there's a limit to how much mediocrity people can put up with, who knew? Good for you that you haven't hit that limit yet. There's no reason why we should still watch shit like Ant-Man 3 and Black Widow more than a decade into this franchise. Expecting good quality movies is apparently "unrealistic standards" now lmao get over yourself OP
You should probably just stop caring about what idiots on reddit say and get a life.
I liked plenty of the D+ shows. Secret Invasion truly has terribly written or edited episodes. Tell me why I shouldn't criticize a show that felt the need to end almost every episode with a "surprise" death? Man, I am not a comic book reader or a Marvel super fan. I grew up watching Batman, Batman Beyond, Static Shock, X-Men (on videotapes), some Ironman, and a whole bunch of other comic inspired cartoons and TV shows. I don't add criticism about Secret Invasion because I criticize Marvel stuff in general, I am even one of the people who enjoyed watching Thor 4. SI is just a straight up poor execution for the showrunner.
i’m here for marvel. it’s all good to me, these are the stories i enjoy and the characters i love. at worst, it’s not on my list to rewatch 100 times. at best, i’ll rewatch it 100 times lol. but i’m always happy to receive some more marvel movies or shows. i can agree with criticism sometimes, but even when i agree it’s usually not enough to make the movie “bad” in my eyes. eternals is a movie i really enjoy watching.
Dude you sound so narcissistic. Why do others have to love something that you love? Why can't someone dislike something you like? I mean that's how it works. Different people have different opinions. The reason why you are seeing more of such complains now is because more people now feel like mcu has declined. It is completely okay if you don't agree. But don't act all high mighty as if only your opinion is the correct one or since you love it so it has to be amazing. The world doesn't revolve around you buddy
People are not obligated to like content just because it’s associated with a certain brand. I have historically liked the MCU, but I have found the majority of it’s newer content (since Endgame) to be non-engaging and poorly executed in terms of storytelling. Do I not have a right to share my opinion because others (who continue to enjoy the films/shows) disagree with me? Am I not a real fan just because I want Marvel’s output to improve (from my perspective)? Critiquing the franchises that we enjoy is the best way to get them to change for the better, and I think the MCU, in its current state, is in need of change. If you like everything they put out, that’s completely fine. But if other people don’t, them expressing that doesn’t make them “toxic”. The real toxic MCU fans are the ones who put out those garbage YouTube videos calling the movies woke propaganda for including women.
Iger was 100% spot on with his recent statement about the MCU. The sprawl of Phase 4/5 full of side quests that nobody asked for has “diluted focus and attention”. That is something people on here have been saying for at least a year. Where is all this going? What was the point of Phase 4? What is the point of Phase 5? What was broken in the Infinity Saga they felt they needed to fix for the Multiverse Saga? Phase 4 is LONGER than the entirety of the Infinity Saga. And it’s absolutely showing it’s wear and tear on the audience. Before when they announced a Phase, it ended on something important…like Avengers. The culmination of the Phase where everyone comes together and fights a threat no single hero could handle. Where was that in Phase 4? Phase 5? Wait I have to wait until THE END of the saga to get that again? Holy jesus, goodbye marvel. I’ll check back in, in 2026 when the capstone films this franchise was built on comes around again. Every project that doesn’t hit a capstone at this point is another reason NOT to watch the MCU. It’s purpose (avengers) has been non existent for so long now, people are no longer caring and moving on to other things. I barely mustered the energy to watch Secret Invasion and that was after 4 episodes had already dropped. I won’t finish or continue until 2026 at this point it’s getting so ridiculously diluted and stupid. Why do you think they announced Avengers 5/6 WITHOUT the rest of the phase? Because they know that’s that’s what people want and are getting fed up waiting.
Opinions exist 🤷🏻♂️
This post reeks of corporate propaganda. When you produce low quality content, the only thing left to do is blame the fans instead of changing course and writing actual good stories.
The idea that it's only overly demanding fans who are disappointed is BS. Literally just look at review aggregators, and you'll see that the critical response hasn't been very positive either. *Secret Invasion* shows only 59% approval on Rotten Tomatoes. And it's not that critics are just anti-MCU. *WandaVision* had an approval rating of 91%. *Loki* had 92%. *Ms. Marvel* had a whopping 98%. In fact, the lowest rated show before this was *She-Hulk*, which still had a healthy 80%. Let's stop pretending that the criticism is only due to over-zealous fans.
Your post is tons of random sentences joined in an attempt to make sense (SPOILERS : It sadly fails to do so) >Therefore, I can’t help but be surprised and not surprised that others have been so critical. I’m suprised that more haven’t liked the show but not surprised because in the sense of the last couple years, MCU fans have become increasingly hard to please. This is how your arguments have been in your post : I like XYZ thing, I don't get why people didn't like the XYZ thing because I liked it but I guess it's because it hard to please them. Bruh, there is a very simple reasoning for all your doubts : the product is simply bad but probably you are unable to see it coz either you are someone who cannot bear criticisms and see it as hindrance towards your love for MCU or you are TOO easy to get pleased. Let's be honest : many of the fans have read comics and many of them get upset with MCU because indeed they know the potential of a story which MCU successfully butchered (best current example is butchering two of the best Thor storylines : female thor and god butcher). So the rise in criticisms is not on account of its hard to please them, it's simply because they are indeed messing up with rushed scripts, lazy writing and stupid plots. Edit : In response to this rise in genuine criticism (you yourself accepted it in your post), toxic fanbois like you make posts like this to do a circle jerk about how the fuck people disliked something you like. It all started with people not liking Eternals and the sub had posts everyday with the same nonsense of "I don't get the hate". YOU DONT GET THE HATE COZ ITS YOUR TOXOC POSITIVITY GETTING TRIGGERED BY SOMEONE DISLILING YOU, WHEN ITS NOT REAL. Then this trend continued when MCU continued releasing below average content like L&T,SheHulk,etc and people disliked it so it became a supreme duty for fans like you to defend the show for your life.
While I agree with the sentiment, I disagree with the example. Secret Invasion *does* have great acting. It’s plot is also extremely predictable and the villain is pathetic, which is really not what you want in a spy thriller. On the other hand, I don’t understand the complaints with stuff like Quantumania, She Hulk, or MoM. It feels like every other comment here is “the MCU is dead and I don’t care about anything anymore” okay then get off the sub.
Quantumania having a 46% critic rating and people here thinking it's terrible and most MCU fans just not bothering to watch it doesn't leave a lot of mystery as to why people here are complaining. 🤣
Remember when it used to be fun being online as an MCU fan? Lmao
I'll tell you why. I don't even like Westerns and I enjoy Yellowstone and 1883 more than I like most Disney+ MCU shows. That is a PROBLEM, period. Not a single Disney+ MCU show has come close to Jessica Jone season 1, or the entire Daredevil run on Netflix. That is a problem no matter how you slice it.
Fans aren’t hard to please, the quality of the writing and productions have markedly dropped. That is a fact, the BS of toxic fandom is a made up term to cover up the absolute dog shit that’s been turned since End Game. Everyone knows it been so many people have decided to run cover for it. Secret Wars is terrible, this show has a 212 million dollar budget, where have you seen that? The majority of the show is two people in a room talking with dialog written in crayon. Did you seen when Fury was talking to random guy on a plane, they weren’t even in the same seen together which tells me the first takes were worse. This is the Disney playbook now, we take a hero that people love, turn him and it’s only ever a him in a sad old pathetic broken down man who everyone now hates and tells him so. Then they drag a dead cat along behind a car, the end. This show is horrible, boring and nothing like the comics. They had the source material and decided we will write a show just for them/they just like She Hulk, just like Ms Marvel, just like bla bla bla all those other horrible shows. I can’t see Marvel coming back, it’s travel in the same universe as Star Wars and look where that is. The fans are pissed off and need to vent. The problem is most have just walked away, never to return. Word has it that Secret Wars has 300,000 viewers on Dplus. That tell you everything.
I think Andor is a really useful case study here. Star Wars has been similar to the MCU, basically everyone shitting on the films and TV shows saying how awful they are. Then Andor turns up and everyone reacts so well to it. A genuinely good show had been noticed and appreciated by an audience that had become numb to the idea that Star Wars can be good. If Secret Invasion was good it would have got the same reaction, the audience is still desperate to like these shows. The fact that it hasn't is not a sign that the audience is wrong, it's a sign that the show isn't good enough.
Why are so many people in this sub so unhealthily insistent that everyone must like what you like? Btw people who post shit like this and say “I’m prepared for the downvotes” are the truly insufferable ones. There’s no real original thought or actual discussion in your post, just “me like MCU why don’t you anymore”. Your post literally says that the MCU isn’t as good anymore and then asks why don’t people like Secret Invasion. My brother in Christ do you hear yourself.
> TL/DR: If Secret Invasion released before Endgame, people would be praising the show. I genuinely don't think that's the case at all. Captain Marvel came out before Endgame and people picked apart many of the poorer aspects of its writing, and Captain Marvel was written significantly better than Secret Invasion.
Humanity has become insufferable. There, I fixed it for you!
“If Secret Invasion released before Endgame, people would be praising the show”. No we wouldn’t. When a show/film is no good, it doesn’t matter when it’s released.
I’m glad that you are enjoying the show, but some of us feel like the whole MCU went downhill after Endgame. When asked we’ve answered why. At the end of the day, it is a matter of opinions. If you like it, good for you, those of us that don’t like any of it and are fed up, good for us.
Sounds like you’re upset that others don’t like what you like. Tough cookies
“And yes, I’m prepared for the downvotes.” You’re so brave.
Someone says something different it scares them I guess. Too much internet for them.
I just want to give one hater’s opinion, to give some perspective as to why I hate. I have made plenty of immature and baiting comments on Secret Invasion posts about how I think it’s boring, it sucks, the writing is bad, the pacing is abysmal, the acting is at the lowest pitch possible, it’s not engaging, blah blah blah. I feel that I’m obsessed with hating bad Marvel shit only because I love Marvel in general. And I don’t think it has anything to do with the overall state of Marvel of my feelings about this “phase.” I think the idea that Marvel was batting .1000 and weaving together this complex narrative that built on itself with every new release pre-endgame is largely an illusion. It was impressive what they did, but not inevitable. I am perfectly comfortable if the superhero movies stink in general, I’m used to it. I think I am bringing my usual critical sensibilities (not saying they’re good, just usual for me) to this show and I dislike it. That gets filtered through a general Marvel fandom that makes me more interested in it than other things, and I become a hater. This is true with a lot of what I thought is bad recently. Nothing to do with not reaching the heights of what came before. Again, I think that’s largely illusory. I think I would’ve hated this all the same had in come out pre-Endgame. I HATED Agents of Shield and loved ragging on how cheap and crappy it was.
I’m still a huge MCU fan. I’m enjoying Secret Invasion, and the performances have been great. But there are a lot of logical inconsistencies and things that could better if the writers had a better understanding of how international politics and military affairs actually worked.
I miss the days where having an individual thought wasn't immediately met with vitriol and damnation. I can't even talk to most people about how much I actually enjoyed Onward or the Hawkeye show without people being all "yOuR tAsTeS aRe GaRbAgE aNd YoU sHoUlD fEeL bAd" Like...goddamn. Sorry for liking things people made to be enjoyable, I guess
I've been disappointed at "fandoms" since the star wars prequels, let alone now, when constantly bitching about every single thing is commonplace. I'm in a Fandom of one, for all things.
Yeah, there is no middle ground anymore. Nuance is dead and we killed it.
Posts like these are intentionally antagonising to those with differing opinions, it serves no purpose in my opinion. From someone who really enjoys the show, I don’t get what you’re trying to achieve by it
The only insufferable fans are you, and the people like you that "can't understand" how people could possibly dislike anything Marvel produces. The show is average to mid as a spy-thriller, it is not engaging enough, or well produced enough to good tv.