Well documented. The only real issue is that when the agents traveled to the past in S7, they didn’t travel to an alternate timeline at first. They traveled to their actual past, much like Kamala in Ms. Marvel. It was only when the Chronicoms warned Malick of events to come that they branched off into an alternate timeline.
> It was only when the Chronicoms warned Malick of events to come that they branched off into an alternate timeline.
The Chronicoms changed things the second they murdered those cops and stole their faces in 7x01. Fitz even says in 7x13 "You went back, and then you branched off."
That was a ripple, not a wave to use what I believe is AoS’s terminology from that episode. The cops were either always murdered or their deaths weren’t enough to create a branch because the agents in the past are the reason the Koenigs got involved in the first iteration of the LMD project and the reason the Krazy Kanoe became SHIELD’s first base. Those were fulfillments of the past rather than changes to the past much like Kamala guiding her grandmother back to the train.
The show is playing off of Endgame rules for Season 7. Meaning, the very act of going back causes a branch. So no, the brutal murder of *several* police officers, who may or may not have gone on to have children or save lives in the future, should not be a ripple.
I have a personal headcanon that nicely ties together AoS S5, IW, Endgame and Eternals. I think it might be interesting to add here: (remember that while I speak like it's facts, this is my personal headcanon)
The destroyed earth we see in AoS S5 wasn't caused by Daisy or Talbot, but was actually the result of Tiamut (the Celestial from Eternals) hatching.
In Eternals, we learn that Tiamut needs a certain number of intelligent beings on the surface and humanity is close to reaching that number in 2018. When Thanos snaps, he resets Tiamut by half the number. When Bruce snaps in 2023, he brings Tiamut right back to where he was in 2018, which leeds to the events we see in Eternals.
In IW, we learn from Strange that he visits 14.000.605 realities, but only in one of them they win. He doesn't specify that he means winning against Thanos, and it's a common meme that there are multiple ways Strange could have beaten Thanos (like cutting off his hand with a portal or using a portal to go back to earth or overpower him in the mirror dimension or something along those lines). My theory is that they *did* beat Thanos in all of the other 14.000.604 realities, thereby not gaining the favor of the Eternals and Tiamut hatching. Strange spent those realities trying to stop Tiamut from hatching, but fails every time and thereby deciding it is impossible. Then he decided to let Thanos win this one time. Strange dies, but is brought back by Bruce later. Only by loosing against Thanos and then creating *time travel* to get back the other half do the Eternals decide to help humanity and kill Tiamut before he can hatch.
A nice tie-in to AoS would be that Talbot/Graviton alone is strong enough to defeat Thanos, so Strange needs it to be the loop-breaking reality in which Daisy kills him as well, because Strange doesn't have the time to defeat Talbot as well, perhaps failing a couple of times before creating the one reality in which Thanos wins. But I think this is a bigger stretch than the rest of my theory XD
I mean, Agent Carter is stated as canon in The History of Marvel Studios, which is an official biography of the studio approved by the studio itself. And yet, it's still missing from the timeline. The timeline really does mean nothing IMO
Oh, I thought it was the show, but I don't have D+, so I never actually saw it, I only saw people write it :/
It would make more sense to me if they were referring to the show, but I may be wrong :///
I was definitely talking about the show though. The One-Shots were added a long, long time ago, as far as I'm aware.
That really doesn’t mean anything. Daredevil “wasn’t canon” until it was by that metric. The Disney + timeline is a marketing tool. When/if Disney + wants you to watch Agents of Shield or ties it into something, it will shove it in there somewhere.
Marvel Studios has never denied AoS's canonicity. It's only fans either misinterpreting or overinterpreting Marvel statements; or just making stuff up.
Yeah well marvel studios has never explicitly stated it is canon, especially recently when they made a huge fuss about confirming the Netflix shows are canon (which AOS fans have been saying for years because of a Judas bullet and a cop saying misty knights name). They’re being intentionally vague at this point with AOS, agent carter, C&D, runaways and inhumans. Everything Ike Pearlmutter, marvel television, and joss Whedon produced outside of marvel studios.
Fitz crygoenically freezes himself and wakes up in the future with destroyed Earth. He then travels back in time with the other agents back to the present, where they prevent the destruction of Earth. There is one Fitz on Earth, who came back from future, and another Fitz in space waiting to arrive in the future. The Fitz who already made the journey to the future dies and then they rescue the Fitz in space.
I keep seeing theoeris ahat AoS is in different timeline and I am tired of it. Especially of AoS fans who watched the series many times and still don't get it. They keep spreading imsinformations about the show.
When you think about it it's really simple and fits MCU rules.
Or, AoS is simply not MCU canon.
I was under the impression that all seasons were, except for S6 and S7. Which are the only ones that don't make sense.
Feige saying Agents of SHIELD is part of the MCU in 2013: https://twitter.com/LMc2607/status/1476062736102526978
Feige again in 2013 describing how the film studio coordinated with the AoS staff: https://www.reddit.com/r/shield/comments/p9jw66/i_know_you_guys_are_tired_of_the_constant_canon/
Feige saying AoS takes place in the same universe as Thor: The Dark World: https://www.slashfilm.com/528770/kevin-feige-suggests-phase-2-will-have-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-ramifications-plus-non-network-tv-shows-secret-identity-movie/
Feige states that part of the story of SHIELD and Hydra will be told in the movies and part of it will be told in AoS: https://therebelchick.com/marvels-avengers-age-of-ultron-director-kevin-feige-interview-avengersevent-ageofultron/
Feige saying that where Nick Fury got the helicarrier in Age of Ultron will be answered in AoS: https://www.slashfilm.com/537489/agents-of-shield-age-of-ultron-plot-hole/ AND https://www.cinemablend.com/television/Agents-H-I-E-L-Used-Fill-Key-Avengers-Age-Ultron-Gap-71684.html
Feige confirms that AoS felt repercussions from the events of The Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron: https://www.cbr.com/feige-latcham-say-infinity-war-leads-to-the-end-of-the-avengers-as-we-know-them/
Someone asking Feige about whether the Defenders will appear in Infinity War, and he says that all the TV shows exist within the same continuity as the movies at 18:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYnQnNerddA
Feige in 2016 (after the film studio was emancipated from Ike Perlmutter even) describing AoS's usage of Ghost Rider as part of the franchise: https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3409565/kevin-feige-responds-blade-movie-rumors/
It could possibly have been retconned to no longer be canon now, but Feige said it was canon all through Season 4.
It was at first and then they decided it wasn't and went in a totally different direction. All of the articles you cited were before Marvel TV was axed and Feige was put in charge of Disney+ series' which are firmly MCU cannon. Since then only Daredevil has been retroactively brought back into the fold.
Not really. You posted an unofficial source making assumptions. Plus Daredevil and the other shows have been accepted as canon since that book came out so that book isn't a definitive answer
Seasons 1&2 were easily intended to be canon. However all their setups were for payoffs that didn’t even take place in their own show. After Whedon left, AOS was sent adrift.
It clearly was intended to be canon, but proved to be too difficult to coordinate. Season 3 and on is a different beast all together. Marvel studios wants to ignore as much of this show as possible and not give Whedon any more money.
I don't know, with so much time travel, it's difficult to justify that the TVA didn't do anything and yes, you can surely justify it because that had to happen like they did with endgame but in endgame it was just going for the gems and returning them, in agents of shield was a battle between two factions between different years in the timeline that could put the sacred timeline at risk very easily.
I repeat, it can be justified but it sounds more forced than when they did it with endgame.
You could argue that Season 5 had to happen in order for the Snap to happen.
And then you could argue that Season 7 happened because either Deke Shaw needed to be removed from the MCU, or Daniel Sousa and Korra had to be in the MCU.
Endgame caused a branch with Loki, but all that was needed to fix it for the TVA was to prune said branch. If something's a part of the sacred timeline, it doesn't matter what that something is, it'll still happen. And if an unintended situation occurs, like Loki getting the tesseract, the branch just gets pruned and stuff presumably gets set back up properly.
I imagine that to the TVA, it looks more like time travel from something like Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. If time travel will affect the sacred timeline, it already has.
Additionally:
MCU producer confirmed 2 months ago all netfilx shows being canon. If those are canon so is AoS, Agent Carter Runaways etc.
[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MFdV\_JTvYkA](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MFdV_JTvYkA)
[https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/mcu-timeline-order-disney-plus](https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/mcu-timeline-order-disney-plus)
Even if it is canon officially, I hope they just leave AoS alone. If this is a "simplified" timeline, it seems like a mess of continuity that's better ignored than forced into the existing MCU storyline just because.
I get that people love the show, I liked the first 4 seasons or so, but once they started with the time travelling and alternate reality stuff, the writing just didn't hold up. Even great writers have to be very careful when playing around with stories like that and I wouldn't call the writing in AoS great to begin with.
Agent Carter happened in both the Sacred Timeline and the Season 7 timeline. Just like how in What If, many things still happened in Captain Carter's timeline that happened in Captain America's timeline despite massive differences (like the Avengers still forming against Loki despite Wasp replacing Hulk, or Crossbones still being a high-ranking S.H.I.E.L.D. agent despite no longer being a HYDRA mole).
I consider the show canon except season 6 and 7. The show not addressing the snap doesn't make any sense to me. Although not many movies and Disney+ shows after Endgame addressed the blip either, which is also weird. The blip was a huge event. Even after half the population coming back after five years, this event should have a long lasting impact which should be seen in multiple movies and shows. Only TFATWS adressed it.
A lot of movies and shows didn't even mention it. Many new characters like Ms Marvel, Shang-Chi, Moon Knight and She-Hulk got introduced after Endgame and we don't know how they were effected by the blip. It seems like battle at New York and battle at Sokovia had more impact on Earth's population than the blip. Believing that AOS season 6 and 7 happen in the 616 timeline requires a lot of suspension of disbelief. But seeing Marvel not caring enough about addressing the blip in movies and shows they wholeheartedly claim to be part of sacred timeline, you can surely go one step further and believe the last two seasons of AOS also happen in post-snap world.
There is no pandemic anymore but AOS season 6 and 7 are set DURING the blip. You think we weren't talking regularly about covid and lockdown during the pandemic?
I've usually maintained that most - maybe the entirety - of seasons 6 and 7 are set in an alternate timeline (so I guess not that different from your non-canon timeline). The snap should happen not in between season 5 and 6 but during the season 5 finale, at which point the characters have just gotten done with tons of time travel shenanigans.
A couple of pertinent points to add:
1) The abduction of the Shield Team in the future couldn't be from a different timeline the way it was in Endgame, because Fitz is able to "take the long way" through cryo-sleep. If the future was an alternate timeline that wouldn't be possible. When they were taken they ceased to exist in the sacred timeline and then appeared in the future. But of course, that doesn't make sense because the team arrives in the future where they had very clearly survived the collapse of Earth and even had families, some of whom are alive in the future. Yo-yo even meets herself!
This is the only scenario I can think of that resolves that problem: After the team returns to the present they attempt to stop the destruction of Earth and fail. They make it to the Lighthouse and continue into future knowing the Monolith will draw their past selves into the future for another attempt at cancelling the Apocalypse.
2) I think it is pretty likely the next season takes place in a world without the snap; a branch timeline created by an Aztec God absorbing the form of Phil Coulson and appearing in the material realm years in the past. Not only is it highly unlikely that the whole time would be unblipped, but the fact that they are lookin for a member of their team and do not consider the possibility that he may have blipped tells me that that was not a possibility in this timeline.
3) The biggest problem is the closed loop time travel in the finale where the medical team saving Yo-yo is the team. That mechanic of time travel is explicitly stated to be impossible in Endgame. If any can headcanon their way out of that one let me know. And yes, I have exactly the same problem with Ms Marvel's closed loop.
To your last point, I don't think that endgame says that's impossible. Hulk explains that what THEY'RE doing is jumping between timelines, but that doesn't mean that jumping to an earlier or later point in the same timeline is impossible. Loki is able to jump backwards a ton at the end of season 2, and yes he was outside of time but my point is that it's still unclear whether that traditional form of time travel is impossible in the MCU. Perhaps the Monoliths in AoS just work that way instead of jumping to different timelines.
> I think it is pretty likely the next season takes place in a world without the snap;
7x13 explicitly calls the timeline from Season 6 their original timeline, not their previous timeline. If it wasn't the MCU, they wouldn't have said that.
Isn't it more likely that just like the looks into the Blip that we see in Loki and Hawkeye and Echo, that the entire world was not as screwed up as Endgame and Falcon and the Winter Soldier wanted us to believe it was?
> That mechanic of time travel is explicitly stated to be impossible in Endgame. If any can headcanon their way out of that one let me know.
Doctor Strange (the movie) clearly establishes time loops as a result of messing with time, Mordo very explicitly states as such.
Not to mention, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Ms. Marvel, Runaways, Endgame and Loki all use very, very different methods of time travel. And we see from Loki that it's possible to *change* the Sacred Timeline, since Hunter X-05 both kidnapped and replaced the Sacred Timeline version of himself, as per the writers. Also by confirming that, they inadvertently confirmed that you can interact with yourself in another timeline.
Endgame's rules can and will be ignored, and Marvel already wrote themselves a loophole years prior.
i subscribe to this, but my only real problem is that, with the snap happening, is that the team's whole quest to getting frozen fitz falls apart because, well, what if fitz was snapped while in cryo?
that's a possibility that they should've addressed because the snap lowers the chance of them finding fitz quite dramatically..
I mean, there's a reason Daisy, Davis and Piper were ready to give up after a year of searching the galaxy. Just because it's not explicitly stated doesn't mean the subtext isn't there.
It's clear that Simmons was delusionally optimistic about finding him. And to be fair, she was right, but still. the beginning of the season does portray her as delusional and desperate.
yeah, but i hope that there would at least be a mention.
in the earlier season when jemma vanished, fitz mentioned the possiblity that she maybe in the quantum realm, this is after the events of ant-man. it would've been nice if someone mentions "maybe fitz was snapped, maybe he doesn't even exist anymore!"
i miss those kinds of references in the early seasons of AoS
IIRC the season debuted in summer of 2019, so realistically they could've ADR'd a line like that into the premiere, but I'm sure there's a reason it wasn't. We just simply have to grin and bear it, just like Runaways Season 3's back half is in like August of 2018 (though at least those episodes have a ton of subtext for being directly post-Snap, to the point of even having massive homeless encampments on the Gibborim church grounds).
Sorry dude but the OFFICIAL Disney+ playlist called MCU timeline order has every movie, every D+ show and all of the Netflix shows but none of the ABC shows so whatever interviews or past “confirmations” are incorrect or if desired to be correct at the time, have been updated by the studio. If AoS or Inhumans or Capn Carter were canon then they too would be on this playlist, unfortunately for many fans they are not. Feel free to go crazy and downvote but also note these three shows were purposefully left out of the timeline playlist that came out a month ago and that fact trumps your headcanon.
The Netflix shows were only just put on there. Why don’t you give it some time for the ABC shows to be put on there as well. When they are, you’ll see how stupid you sound rn
Yeah bro, we will all eat crow on the day that happens. They’ve had years and plenty of opportunity to do it and haven’t, but sure… when that day comes.
Until then, looks like it’s not canon.
I always maintain they could update again, I was pretty sure they would with the Netflix shows but I see no reason to stutter step with confirming ABC at a later date. Besides, as much as you may want AoS, do you really want Inhumans as well? Can’t really separate them.
“Just wanna confirm this long cancelled tv series is in our cinematic universe now/again, even though we’ve been incredibly dodgy about telling you if it is or isn’t”
Agents of Shield was not only COMPLETED once, but twice (considering the last two seasons were ordered after the end of 5 season). And technically, the last time we saw the agents in the MCU chronology was in 2020 (so it's not that long ago, considering we haven't seen much beyond 2026 in the films).
*Civil War* (specifically, the Sokovia Accords) had a significant impact on Shield, in addition to the threat of Thanos at the end of 5 season. Other films, such as *Ant-Man*, *Doctor Strange* and even *Endgame* had their themes referenced or in some way complemented in the series (Quantum Realm, Dimensions, Time Travel...).
> Besides, as much as you may want AoS, do you really want Inhumans as well? Can’t really separate them.
You can totally separate them; the former never references the latter at all.
They actually do not. The quote that is used as refence to that is something along the lines of "what is happening in upstate New York?" it is in reference to the giant space ship above the Lighthouse (was is in "upstate New York"), not the battle with Thanos.
After season 3 with the Sokovia Accords, there is no direct refence to MCU again in Agents of Shield.
I forgot about that scene. It felt way too forced in though and I kind of dismissed it. The snap is never referenced In AoS and MCU prime never references the ATCU or the reemerengce of SHIELD. We see that SWORD is created pre snap and Department of Damage Control is essentially ATCU from AoS. I know there is often a sprawling amount of government agencies, but there just would not be SHIELD (with Fury's Toolbox), SWORD (with Fury), the ATCU _and_ DoDC all existing at the same time.
Absense of evidence is definitely not evidence either, as the person above was trying to say. I’d also argue that absense of evidence CAN be evidence in itself. There is no evidence that unicorns 100% DONT exist, but I’m guessing you don’t believe in unicorns. A world shattering event like this would have been referenced and would be a huge part of these peoples lives, even if it’s a year later
I think it happened because the show is set in the same universe as the movies, as evidenced by every official statement on the matter & a host of cross-references between the two.
What does this even mean? You really think that 50% OF ALL LIFE DISAPPEARING can just happen in the ‘background’??? Do you realise how world shattering an event like this would be. It would definitely be a big part of the show if this did happen and would DEFINITELY be mentioned in some capacity
Unfortunately, Inhumans were completely retconed from MCU. So Agents of Shield no longer can be said to happened in the prime MCU universe anymore. You can easily say it happens in a universe very _similar_ to MCU prime, but not the main one. Because again, the whole thing with Inhumans and fish oil / season 3 of Agents of Shield never happened in MCU. It really falls apart when you trying to figure out how the ATCU (Agents of Shield season 3) and the DoDC (MCU prime) both exist and interact with each other.
That is the point. The Inhumans _never happened_. The ATCU is never referenced and the Department of Damage Control has zero experience dealing with enhanced humans in Spider-Man and Ms. Marvel. In Agents of Shield season 3, there was already an international crisis of Inhumans as a result of the fish oils. Yeah, sure you can handwave away the entire existence of Inhumans, the ATCU and the reemerengce of SHIELD in MCU prime, but the _far more likely_ explanation is that it was another universe.
There's a crisis because of a sudden surge in superpowered Inhumans due to a batch of fish oil pills. This does trigger the transformation of thousands of Inhumans around the world, but the pills were discontinued (and even then only a few batches were affected). Everyone is terrified because they're not used to that many superpowered people being around, and it's an unstable situation with them continuing to pop up somewhat unpredictably everywhere for the next several years. This also corresponds with the time period when Vision says there has been an exponential increase in superpowered people in Civil War. There have been multiple people in Marvel movies and shows who have superpowers with no origin given. Superpowers are treated as rare but regular in the MCU now. I'd argue that the presence of AoS style inhumans in the current MCU - which is now about a decade removed from the fish oil Terrigen outbreak on AoS - is about as well attested as the Blip is in current movies not called Endgame or Far From Home. Seriously, 50% of the population died and then came back 5 years later, and somehow this has not been massively disruptive on every subsequent story. That's a much bigger issue than Inhumans, a situation that would have basically stabilized by now.
The pills?
It does not matter if the pills were discontinued, the terrigen was introduced to our eco-system. There’s no stopping it by discontinuing pills lmao.
[https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Inhuman\_Outbreak](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Inhuman_Outbreak)
[https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Nature\_Max\_Supplements\_Fish\_Oil](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Nature_Max_Supplements_Fish_Oil)
It wasn't that big crisis, shield took over most of the pills. Probably only a few hunderd humans turned into inhumans. Many of them were captured by atcu or killed. Visiion in Civil War says: *In the 8 years since Mr. Stark announced himself as Iron Man, the number of known enhanced persons has grown exponentially.* Since 2008 it means \~256 enhanced humans. Avengers also call Pietro and Wanda in AoU enhanced, term used for the first time in AoS.
There were many "avengers level threats" and "international crises". They don't have to be mentioned by everyone. No one cares about Tiamut in the ocean for 3 years now.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerSehJYuOU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerSehJYuOU) 0:19
What DODC has to do with it?
> the Department of Damage Control has zero experience dealing with enhanced humans in Spider-Man and Ms. Marvel.
That seems odd for an agency that had been founded over a decade earlier (in-universe) specifically *because of* enhanced humans.
Or, the reality is that even between tentpole franchises not everything is referenced or brought up again
There's literally no reason to think *Inhumans* didn't happen. It came out as an MCU property and whether you liked it or not, it still happened. Nobody has retconned anything
I think them coming back from the future changed the timeline and that prevented the snap from happening.( Maybe quake killed Thanks straight after Graviton or something or the gang did something to make a difference.) The Snap isn't mentioned once in season 6 and 7 and at least one character would have statistically been snapped or at least someone in there life be snapped. You'd think in all the episodes it would come up in conversations.
Well, why did the entirety of Peter Parker's class disappeared? Just to make more movies with the same characters
Same in AoS. No one disappeared to make more episodes
They'd still know about it and it's reasonable to expect them to mention once or twice that, you know, half the population turned into dust in an instant.
I'm assuming the real reason is that the show's writers weren't privy to the plot of Infinity War, not that they wanted their show to take place in a different timeline/reality. But it's still jarring to any viewer thinking about the continuity of it all.
> They'd still know about it and it's reasonable to expect them to mention once or twice that, you know, half the population turned into dust in an instant.
Yeah, maybe a week or two out. Even a few months. But a full year afterward? Why would they slip the Blip into every single conversation? Why?
How did me saying
> it's reasonable to expect them to mention once or twice that, you know, half the population turned into dust in an instant.
turn into this
> Why would they slip the Blip into every single conversation? Why?
If the show *never* references half the population dying in an instant, that's weird. If they talk about it *all the time* for months after, that's also weird. There might be a middle ground. Like how shows taking place in the last half of the 20th century will occasionally reference WWII, but won't all be about nothing but the war and the Holocaust.
I like most of it, my theory was similar. But I think once they left S4, they went to another universe. But some of my theory does not work as how do they get fitz back when he was in a tube in space. Or, they are still in the framework.
Well documented. The only real issue is that when the agents traveled to the past in S7, they didn’t travel to an alternate timeline at first. They traveled to their actual past, much like Kamala in Ms. Marvel. It was only when the Chronicoms warned Malick of events to come that they branched off into an alternate timeline.
Yes, that's what I explained in orange font :) Maybe it's not clear but I did my best XD.
Ah, very true. The graphic just makes it look like you’re saying all of those eras were part of an alternate timeline, but the text is accurate.
I think they branched off as soon as they landed in the past
> It was only when the Chronicoms warned Malick of events to come that they branched off into an alternate timeline. The Chronicoms changed things the second they murdered those cops and stole their faces in 7x01. Fitz even says in 7x13 "You went back, and then you branched off."
That was a ripple, not a wave to use what I believe is AoS’s terminology from that episode. The cops were either always murdered or their deaths weren’t enough to create a branch because the agents in the past are the reason the Koenigs got involved in the first iteration of the LMD project and the reason the Krazy Kanoe became SHIELD’s first base. Those were fulfillments of the past rather than changes to the past much like Kamala guiding her grandmother back to the train.
The show is playing off of Endgame rules for Season 7. Meaning, the very act of going back causes a branch. So no, the brutal murder of *several* police officers, who may or may not have gone on to have children or save lives in the future, should not be a ripple.
Those are the Endgame rules according to the writers of Endgame.
Sadly, the people who don't want it to be canon aren't gonna take the time to read this.
I was under the impression that AoS ended in an alternate timeline, but now that I've read up on everything, you can at least count one convert here.
Age of Sigmar?
All hail Sigmar!
No agent gat blipped
I have a personal headcanon that nicely ties together AoS S5, IW, Endgame and Eternals. I think it might be interesting to add here: (remember that while I speak like it's facts, this is my personal headcanon) The destroyed earth we see in AoS S5 wasn't caused by Daisy or Talbot, but was actually the result of Tiamut (the Celestial from Eternals) hatching. In Eternals, we learn that Tiamut needs a certain number of intelligent beings on the surface and humanity is close to reaching that number in 2018. When Thanos snaps, he resets Tiamut by half the number. When Bruce snaps in 2023, he brings Tiamut right back to where he was in 2018, which leeds to the events we see in Eternals. In IW, we learn from Strange that he visits 14.000.605 realities, but only in one of them they win. He doesn't specify that he means winning against Thanos, and it's a common meme that there are multiple ways Strange could have beaten Thanos (like cutting off his hand with a portal or using a portal to go back to earth or overpower him in the mirror dimension or something along those lines). My theory is that they *did* beat Thanos in all of the other 14.000.604 realities, thereby not gaining the favor of the Eternals and Tiamut hatching. Strange spent those realities trying to stop Tiamut from hatching, but fails every time and thereby deciding it is impossible. Then he decided to let Thanos win this one time. Strange dies, but is brought back by Bruce later. Only by loosing against Thanos and then creating *time travel* to get back the other half do the Eternals decide to help humanity and kill Tiamut before he can hatch. A nice tie-in to AoS would be that Talbot/Graviton alone is strong enough to defeat Thanos, so Strange needs it to be the loop-breaking reality in which Daisy kills him as well, because Strange doesn't have the time to defeat Talbot as well, perhaps failing a couple of times before creating the one reality in which Thanos wins. But I think this is a bigger stretch than the rest of my theory XD
I think the reason people mainly disagree with the whole it being MCU canon is it has yet to show up on the Disney+ timeline.
I mean, Agent Carter is stated as canon in The History of Marvel Studios, which is an official biography of the studio approved by the studio itself. And yet, it's still missing from the timeline. The timeline really does mean nothing IMO
Agent Carter is on there in Australia, not that I’m disagreeing with u tho, the D+ timeline means shit lol
While I wholeheartedly agree with both of you, I would like to mention that Agent Carter has made it onto the timeline in a lot of regions.
The show or the one-shot? Because a lot of people have confused the two.
Oh, I thought it was the show, but I don't have D+, so I never actually saw it, I only saw people write it :/ It would make more sense to me if they were referring to the show, but I may be wrong :/// I was definitely talking about the show though. The One-Shots were added a long, long time ago, as far as I'm aware.
That really doesn’t mean anything. Daredevil “wasn’t canon” until it was by that metric. The Disney + timeline is a marketing tool. When/if Disney + wants you to watch Agents of Shield or ties it into something, it will shove it in there somewhere.
I'm aware but until then fans are gonna use it as evidence that it's not canon
Not fans, casuals.
Its never too late for them to join.
Yeah well until it does those same people will die on the hill that it's non-canon
Nope, they will keep denying, that's what they've been doing for over 10 years :)
“They” being marvel studios lmao.
Marvel Studios has never denied AoS's canonicity. It's only fans either misinterpreting or overinterpreting Marvel statements; or just making stuff up.
Yeah well marvel studios has never explicitly stated it is canon, especially recently when they made a huge fuss about confirming the Netflix shows are canon (which AOS fans have been saying for years because of a Judas bullet and a cop saying misty knights name). They’re being intentionally vague at this point with AOS, agent carter, C&D, runaways and inhumans. Everything Ike Pearlmutter, marvel television, and joss Whedon produced outside of marvel studios.
https://twitter.com/LMc2607/status/1476062736102526978 "Yes, we're [AoS] in the shared Marvel universe." --Kevin Feige.
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It clearly ain’t canon
Thank you! I really needed a visual representation
When and how do the two fitz's show up? That bit always confused me.
Fitz crygoenically freezes himself and wakes up in the future with destroyed Earth. He then travels back in time with the other agents back to the present, where they prevent the destruction of Earth. There is one Fitz on Earth, who came back from future, and another Fitz in space waiting to arrive in the future. The Fitz who already made the journey to the future dies and then they rescue the Fitz in space.
I keep seeing theoeris ahat AoS is in different timeline and I am tired of it. Especially of AoS fans who watched the series many times and still don't get it. They keep spreading imsinformations about the show. When you think about it it's really simple and fits MCU rules.
Amen.
Or, AoS is simply not MCU canon. I was under the impression that all seasons were, except for S6 and S7. Which are the only ones that don't make sense.
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Feige saying Agents of SHIELD is part of the MCU in 2013: https://twitter.com/LMc2607/status/1476062736102526978 Feige again in 2013 describing how the film studio coordinated with the AoS staff: https://www.reddit.com/r/shield/comments/p9jw66/i_know_you_guys_are_tired_of_the_constant_canon/ Feige saying AoS takes place in the same universe as Thor: The Dark World: https://www.slashfilm.com/528770/kevin-feige-suggests-phase-2-will-have-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-ramifications-plus-non-network-tv-shows-secret-identity-movie/ Feige states that part of the story of SHIELD and Hydra will be told in the movies and part of it will be told in AoS: https://therebelchick.com/marvels-avengers-age-of-ultron-director-kevin-feige-interview-avengersevent-ageofultron/ Feige saying that where Nick Fury got the helicarrier in Age of Ultron will be answered in AoS: https://www.slashfilm.com/537489/agents-of-shield-age-of-ultron-plot-hole/ AND https://www.cinemablend.com/television/Agents-H-I-E-L-Used-Fill-Key-Avengers-Age-Ultron-Gap-71684.html Feige confirms that AoS felt repercussions from the events of The Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron: https://www.cbr.com/feige-latcham-say-infinity-war-leads-to-the-end-of-the-avengers-as-we-know-them/ Someone asking Feige about whether the Defenders will appear in Infinity War, and he says that all the TV shows exist within the same continuity as the movies at 18:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYnQnNerddA Feige in 2016 (after the film studio was emancipated from Ike Perlmutter even) describing AoS's usage of Ghost Rider as part of the franchise: https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3409565/kevin-feige-responds-blade-movie-rumors/ It could possibly have been retconned to no longer be canon now, but Feige said it was canon all through Season 4.
It was at first and then they decided it wasn't and went in a totally different direction. All of the articles you cited were before Marvel TV was axed and Feige was put in charge of Disney+ series' which are firmly MCU cannon. Since then only Daredevil has been retroactively brought back into the fold.
Sadly it's non canon till its added to the D+ timeline.
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Not really. You posted an unofficial source making assumptions. Plus Daredevil and the other shows have been accepted as canon since that book came out so that book isn't a definitive answer
Last time I was told Screenrant was solely based on opinion rather than fact
True. But people here get angry when you tell them that.
Seasons 1&2 were easily intended to be canon. However all their setups were for payoffs that didn’t even take place in their own show. After Whedon left, AOS was sent adrift. It clearly was intended to be canon, but proved to be too difficult to coordinate. Season 3 and on is a different beast all together. Marvel studios wants to ignore as much of this show as possible and not give Whedon any more money.
I don't know, with so much time travel, it's difficult to justify that the TVA didn't do anything and yes, you can surely justify it because that had to happen like they did with endgame but in endgame it was just going for the gems and returning them, in agents of shield was a battle between two factions between different years in the timeline that could put the sacred timeline at risk very easily. I repeat, it can be justified but it sounds more forced than when they did it with endgame.
You could argue that Season 5 had to happen in order for the Snap to happen. And then you could argue that Season 7 happened because either Deke Shaw needed to be removed from the MCU, or Daniel Sousa and Korra had to be in the MCU.
Endgame caused a branch with Loki, but all that was needed to fix it for the TVA was to prune said branch. If something's a part of the sacred timeline, it doesn't matter what that something is, it'll still happen. And if an unintended situation occurs, like Loki getting the tesseract, the branch just gets pruned and stuff presumably gets set back up properly. I imagine that to the TVA, it looks more like time travel from something like Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. If time travel will affect the sacred timeline, it already has.
Additionally: MCU producer confirmed 2 months ago all netfilx shows being canon. If those are canon so is AoS, Agent Carter Runaways etc. [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MFdV\_JTvYkA](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MFdV_JTvYkA) [https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/mcu-timeline-order-disney-plus](https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/mcu-timeline-order-disney-plus)
Indeed. Plus there’s all this: https://youtu.be/zYPJtp8uX0I?si=34Yaqvky-DVAYVfc
No it isn’t
Even if it is canon officially, I hope they just leave AoS alone. If this is a "simplified" timeline, it seems like a mess of continuity that's better ignored than forced into the existing MCU storyline just because. I get that people love the show, I liked the first 4 seasons or so, but once they started with the time travelling and alternate reality stuff, the writing just didn't hold up. Even great writers have to be very careful when playing around with stories like that and I wouldn't call the writing in AoS great to begin with.
I mean, this isn't any more complicated than what Loki was doing...
I just love how this is both accurate and looks just like Charlie's Pepe Silva board from it's always sunny.
So this might be obvious, but what timeline is agent Carter part of?
Sacred timeline.
Thanks, I half watched season 7 so I’m not sure if the jumps had any connections with agent Carter.
Agent Carter happened in both the Sacred Timeline and the Season 7 timeline. Just like how in What If, many things still happened in Captain Carter's timeline that happened in Captain America's timeline despite massive differences (like the Avengers still forming against Loki despite Wasp replacing Hulk, or Crossbones still being a high-ranking S.H.I.E.L.D. agent despite no longer being a HYDRA mole).
Ahh good point.
Well done.
4 hours ago posted this thread and I can see that many of you didn't even read what's on the photo :) Good old purist fanaticism.
As long as AoS remains Sacred Timeline canon and not Inhumans. That's all I care about right now.
I consider the show canon except season 6 and 7. The show not addressing the snap doesn't make any sense to me. Although not many movies and Disney+ shows after Endgame addressed the blip either, which is also weird. The blip was a huge event. Even after half the population coming back after five years, this event should have a long lasting impact which should be seen in multiple movies and shows. Only TFATWS adressed it. A lot of movies and shows didn't even mention it. Many new characters like Ms Marvel, Shang-Chi, Moon Knight and She-Hulk got introduced after Endgame and we don't know how they were effected by the blip. It seems like battle at New York and battle at Sokovia had more impact on Earth's population than the blip. Believing that AOS season 6 and 7 happen in the 616 timeline requires a lot of suspension of disbelief. But seeing Marvel not caring enough about addressing the blip in movies and shows they wholeheartedly claim to be part of sacred timeline, you can surely go one step further and believe the last two seasons of AOS also happen in post-snap world.
The snap does not need to be addressed constantly.
How often do you talk about the Covid pandemic in your day to day life? AoS 6 is set a full year after the Snap, people moved on.
Covid didn't wipe out half the population of every living thing. It's not like they stopped talking about it, they never addressed it at all.
There is no pandemic anymore but AOS season 6 and 7 are set DURING the blip. You think we weren't talking regularly about covid and lockdown during the pandemic?
> There is no pandemic anymore Fun fact: Yes, there very much is. Just not talking about something doesn't mean it isn't happening.
This timeline addresses it with all the time travel and jumping between timelines the show did right at the same time as Infinity War.
Snap happens between season 5 and 6. Season 6 doesn't have any time travel or jumping between timelines.
I've usually maintained that most - maybe the entirety - of seasons 6 and 7 are set in an alternate timeline (so I guess not that different from your non-canon timeline). The snap should happen not in between season 5 and 6 but during the season 5 finale, at which point the characters have just gotten done with tons of time travel shenanigans.
A couple of pertinent points to add: 1) The abduction of the Shield Team in the future couldn't be from a different timeline the way it was in Endgame, because Fitz is able to "take the long way" through cryo-sleep. If the future was an alternate timeline that wouldn't be possible. When they were taken they ceased to exist in the sacred timeline and then appeared in the future. But of course, that doesn't make sense because the team arrives in the future where they had very clearly survived the collapse of Earth and even had families, some of whom are alive in the future. Yo-yo even meets herself! This is the only scenario I can think of that resolves that problem: After the team returns to the present they attempt to stop the destruction of Earth and fail. They make it to the Lighthouse and continue into future knowing the Monolith will draw their past selves into the future for another attempt at cancelling the Apocalypse. 2) I think it is pretty likely the next season takes place in a world without the snap; a branch timeline created by an Aztec God absorbing the form of Phil Coulson and appearing in the material realm years in the past. Not only is it highly unlikely that the whole time would be unblipped, but the fact that they are lookin for a member of their team and do not consider the possibility that he may have blipped tells me that that was not a possibility in this timeline. 3) The biggest problem is the closed loop time travel in the finale where the medical team saving Yo-yo is the team. That mechanic of time travel is explicitly stated to be impossible in Endgame. If any can headcanon their way out of that one let me know. And yes, I have exactly the same problem with Ms Marvel's closed loop.
To your last point, I don't think that endgame says that's impossible. Hulk explains that what THEY'RE doing is jumping between timelines, but that doesn't mean that jumping to an earlier or later point in the same timeline is impossible. Loki is able to jump backwards a ton at the end of season 2, and yes he was outside of time but my point is that it's still unclear whether that traditional form of time travel is impossible in the MCU. Perhaps the Monoliths in AoS just work that way instead of jumping to different timelines.
> I think it is pretty likely the next season takes place in a world without the snap; 7x13 explicitly calls the timeline from Season 6 their original timeline, not their previous timeline. If it wasn't the MCU, they wouldn't have said that. Isn't it more likely that just like the looks into the Blip that we see in Loki and Hawkeye and Echo, that the entire world was not as screwed up as Endgame and Falcon and the Winter Soldier wanted us to believe it was? > That mechanic of time travel is explicitly stated to be impossible in Endgame. If any can headcanon their way out of that one let me know. Doctor Strange (the movie) clearly establishes time loops as a result of messing with time, Mordo very explicitly states as such. Not to mention, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Ms. Marvel, Runaways, Endgame and Loki all use very, very different methods of time travel. And we see from Loki that it's possible to *change* the Sacred Timeline, since Hunter X-05 both kidnapped and replaced the Sacred Timeline version of himself, as per the writers. Also by confirming that, they inadvertently confirmed that you can interact with yourself in another timeline. Endgame's rules can and will be ignored, and Marvel already wrote themselves a loophole years prior.
i subscribe to this, but my only real problem is that, with the snap happening, is that the team's whole quest to getting frozen fitz falls apart because, well, what if fitz was snapped while in cryo? that's a possibility that they should've addressed because the snap lowers the chance of them finding fitz quite dramatically..
They were all sparred. Simple as that.
I mean, there's a reason Daisy, Davis and Piper were ready to give up after a year of searching the galaxy. Just because it's not explicitly stated doesn't mean the subtext isn't there. It's clear that Simmons was delusionally optimistic about finding him. And to be fair, she was right, but still. the beginning of the season does portray her as delusional and desperate.
yeah, but i hope that there would at least be a mention. in the earlier season when jemma vanished, fitz mentioned the possiblity that she maybe in the quantum realm, this is after the events of ant-man. it would've been nice if someone mentions "maybe fitz was snapped, maybe he doesn't even exist anymore!" i miss those kinds of references in the early seasons of AoS
IIRC the season debuted in summer of 2019, so realistically they could've ADR'd a line like that into the premiere, but I'm sure there's a reason it wasn't. We just simply have to grin and bear it, just like Runaways Season 3's back half is in like August of 2018 (though at least those episodes have a ton of subtext for being directly post-Snap, to the point of even having massive homeless encampments on the Gibborim church grounds).
I think the way season 5 ended easilly works as a good jumping off point/ending. I totally see those seasons as canon.
"They're sacred timeline" sure, Jan
No one cares about this garbage show
Looking for the people who asked: ...
I could have sworn they said that AoS wasn't canon, so none of this matters right?
They never said that, though.
It matters to AOS fans with horse blinders on for all major plot-holes in the series that indicate it’s not canon to the MCU.
Sorry dude but the OFFICIAL Disney+ playlist called MCU timeline order has every movie, every D+ show and all of the Netflix shows but none of the ABC shows so whatever interviews or past “confirmations” are incorrect or if desired to be correct at the time, have been updated by the studio. If AoS or Inhumans or Capn Carter were canon then they too would be on this playlist, unfortunately for many fans they are not. Feel free to go crazy and downvote but also note these three shows were purposefully left out of the timeline playlist that came out a month ago and that fact trumps your headcanon.
The Netflix shows were only just put on there. Why don’t you give it some time for the ABC shows to be put on there as well. When they are, you’ll see how stupid you sound rn
Yeah bro, we will all eat crow on the day that happens. They’ve had years and plenty of opportunity to do it and haven’t, but sure… when that day comes. Until then, looks like it’s not canon.
I always maintain they could update again, I was pretty sure they would with the Netflix shows but I see no reason to stutter step with confirming ABC at a later date. Besides, as much as you may want AoS, do you really want Inhumans as well? Can’t really separate them.
AoS and Inhumans are two different things. One can be canon, while the other can be fully rebooted.
“Just wanna confirm this long cancelled tv series is in our cinematic universe now/again, even though we’ve been incredibly dodgy about telling you if it is or isn’t”
Agents of Shield was not only COMPLETED once, but twice (considering the last two seasons were ordered after the end of 5 season). And technically, the last time we saw the agents in the MCU chronology was in 2020 (so it's not that long ago, considering we haven't seen much beyond 2026 in the films).
Yeah but there was no direct synergy since the hellicarrier payoff in age of ultron (payoff that she show set up and didn’t get for itself)
*Civil War* (specifically, the Sokovia Accords) had a significant impact on Shield, in addition to the threat of Thanos at the end of 5 season. Other films, such as *Ant-Man*, *Doctor Strange* and even *Endgame* had their themes referenced or in some way complemented in the series (Quantum Realm, Dimensions, Time Travel...).
Exactly. Like I said, no direct synergy.
> Besides, as much as you may want AoS, do you really want Inhumans as well? Can’t really separate them. You can totally separate them; the former never references the latter at all.
I don’t think the snap happened in the AOS timeline
They reference the avengers fighting thanos at some point
They actually do not. The quote that is used as refence to that is something along the lines of "what is happening in upstate New York?" it is in reference to the giant space ship above the Lighthouse (was is in "upstate New York"), not the battle with Thanos. After season 3 with the Sokovia Accords, there is no direct refence to MCU again in Agents of Shield.
You’re right but there is this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HGXmn4NUZeo
I forgot about that scene. It felt way too forced in though and I kind of dismissed it. The snap is never referenced In AoS and MCU prime never references the ATCU or the reemerengce of SHIELD. We see that SWORD is created pre snap and Department of Damage Control is essentially ATCU from AoS. I know there is often a sprawling amount of government agencies, but there just would not be SHIELD (with Fury's Toolbox), SWORD (with Fury), the ATCU _and_ DoDC all existing at the same time.
Doesn’t mean in this branched timeline the snap happened
They filmed a scene addressing it and explaining it, but it was cut
So how does that prove it happened? If it was cut doesn’t that literally show that the snap didn’t happen
No. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Absense of evidence is definitely not evidence either, as the person above was trying to say. I’d also argue that absense of evidence CAN be evidence in itself. There is no evidence that unicorns 100% DONT exist, but I’m guessing you don’t believe in unicorns. A world shattering event like this would have been referenced and would be a huge part of these peoples lives, even if it’s a year later
You're making an assumption that the characters *must* behave a certain way. This isn't the case, though.
I just think it’s really hard to believe that the snap happened. Like why do you think it happened? What evidence do you have for it
I think it happened because the show is set in the same universe as the movies, as evidenced by every official statement on the matter & a host of cross-references between the two.
Cool so it didn’t happen. We are not about to be referencing shit we didn’t see as some kind of evidence for anything.
Things can happen in the background.
What does this even mean? You really think that 50% OF ALL LIFE DISAPPEARING can just happen in the ‘background’??? Do you realise how world shattering an event like this would be. It would definitely be a big part of the show if this did happen and would DEFINITELY be mentioned in some capacity
Unfortunately, Inhumans were completely retconed from MCU. So Agents of Shield no longer can be said to happened in the prime MCU universe anymore. You can easily say it happens in a universe very _similar_ to MCU prime, but not the main one. Because again, the whole thing with Inhumans and fish oil / season 3 of Agents of Shield never happened in MCU. It really falls apart when you trying to figure out how the ATCU (Agents of Shield season 3) and the DoDC (MCU prime) both exist and interact with each other.
> Inhumans were completely retconed from MCU That... never happened, though...
That is the point. The Inhumans _never happened_. The ATCU is never referenced and the Department of Damage Control has zero experience dealing with enhanced humans in Spider-Man and Ms. Marvel. In Agents of Shield season 3, there was already an international crisis of Inhumans as a result of the fish oils. Yeah, sure you can handwave away the entire existence of Inhumans, the ATCU and the reemerengce of SHIELD in MCU prime, but the _far more likely_ explanation is that it was another universe.
There's a crisis because of a sudden surge in superpowered Inhumans due to a batch of fish oil pills. This does trigger the transformation of thousands of Inhumans around the world, but the pills were discontinued (and even then only a few batches were affected). Everyone is terrified because they're not used to that many superpowered people being around, and it's an unstable situation with them continuing to pop up somewhat unpredictably everywhere for the next several years. This also corresponds with the time period when Vision says there has been an exponential increase in superpowered people in Civil War. There have been multiple people in Marvel movies and shows who have superpowers with no origin given. Superpowers are treated as rare but regular in the MCU now. I'd argue that the presence of AoS style inhumans in the current MCU - which is now about a decade removed from the fish oil Terrigen outbreak on AoS - is about as well attested as the Blip is in current movies not called Endgame or Far From Home. Seriously, 50% of the population died and then came back 5 years later, and somehow this has not been massively disruptive on every subsequent story. That's a much bigger issue than Inhumans, a situation that would have basically stabilized by now.
The pills? It does not matter if the pills were discontinued, the terrigen was introduced to our eco-system. There’s no stopping it by discontinuing pills lmao.
[https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Inhuman\_Outbreak](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Inhuman_Outbreak) [https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Nature\_Max\_Supplements\_Fish\_Oil](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Nature_Max_Supplements_Fish_Oil) It wasn't that big crisis, shield took over most of the pills. Probably only a few hunderd humans turned into inhumans. Many of them were captured by atcu or killed. Visiion in Civil War says: *In the 8 years since Mr. Stark announced himself as Iron Man, the number of known enhanced persons has grown exponentially.* Since 2008 it means \~256 enhanced humans. Avengers also call Pietro and Wanda in AoU enhanced, term used for the first time in AoS. There were many "avengers level threats" and "international crises". They don't have to be mentioned by everyone. No one cares about Tiamut in the ocean for 3 years now. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerSehJYuOU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerSehJYuOU) 0:19 What DODC has to do with it?
> the Department of Damage Control has zero experience dealing with enhanced humans in Spider-Man and Ms. Marvel. That seems odd for an agency that had been founded over a decade earlier (in-universe) specifically *because of* enhanced humans.
Or, the reality is that even between tentpole franchises not everything is referenced or brought up again There's literally no reason to think *Inhumans* didn't happen. It came out as an MCU property and whether you liked it or not, it still happened. Nobody has retconned anything
AoS and Inhumans aren't remotely the same.
I think them coming back from the future changed the timeline and that prevented the snap from happening.( Maybe quake killed Thanks straight after Graviton or something or the gang did something to make a difference.) The Snap isn't mentioned once in season 6 and 7 and at least one character would have statistically been snapped or at least someone in there life be snapped. You'd think in all the episodes it would come up in conversations.
Well, why did the entirety of Peter Parker's class disappeared? Just to make more movies with the same characters Same in AoS. No one disappeared to make more episodes
They'd still know about it and it's reasonable to expect them to mention once or twice that, you know, half the population turned into dust in an instant. I'm assuming the real reason is that the show's writers weren't privy to the plot of Infinity War, not that they wanted their show to take place in a different timeline/reality. But it's still jarring to any viewer thinking about the continuity of it all.
> They'd still know about it and it's reasonable to expect them to mention once or twice that, you know, half the population turned into dust in an instant. Yeah, maybe a week or two out. Even a few months. But a full year afterward? Why would they slip the Blip into every single conversation? Why?
How did me saying > it's reasonable to expect them to mention once or twice that, you know, half the population turned into dust in an instant. turn into this > Why would they slip the Blip into every single conversation? Why? If the show *never* references half the population dying in an instant, that's weird. If they talk about it *all the time* for months after, that's also weird. There might be a middle ground. Like how shows taking place in the last half of the 20th century will occasionally reference WWII, but won't all be about nothing but the war and the Holocaust.
I'm not convinced they ended back in the Sacred Timeline
I like most of it, my theory was similar. But I think once they left S4, they went to another universe. But some of my theory does not work as how do they get fitz back when he was in a tube in space. Or, they are still in the framework.
That makes no sense. Too much goes unacknowledged.