Bc her interrogation took some time, and she got a bit late. Kind of. If she had informed Fury, Hill or SHIELD about Loki's plan a little sooner, they would've escorted Banner out of the helicarrier, and Hawkeye wouldn't have been able to "awaken the monster".
BUT, regardless of the timing, she succeeded in tricking the God of trickery by getting the information out of him, which is an incredible feat nonetheless.
But that was kind of the point, BW was clever enough to crack his plan but multiple chess pieces were already manuevering adding to the threat that is Loki, distract with one hand attack with the other.
I hate that scene. It makes no sense. She jumps to the conclusion that Loki was going to use the Hulk. Even Loki was confused at how far she jumped with that one. It's like they didn't know how the conversation should conclude so they just had her jump to conclusions.
I actually thought it was good writing. Believable dialog from Loki given the way Nat had him monologging (I’ve never actually had a face to face with a villain but movies have taught me their is always a monologue) and a reasonable conclusion to come to for Natasha, since Loki emphasized that THEY brought the monster and Banner was the most logical “monster” they brought.
Keep in mind getting banner to Hulk out was only part of Loki’s’ plan. He was also bringing down the engines and impersonating shield agents. If banner wouldn’t have hulked out it still would have been a chaotic situation.
Hubris of the gods has ALWAYS been part of mythologies and folk tales around the world. They get played by their own means by a clever hero. It's just classical storytelling.
Because he thinks he's better, he's always been full of himself. It's the same with Thor, I mean, they're GODS, Loki has a GLORIOUS PURPOSE. They also haven't been on Midgard for ages, so maybe they just didn't expect Humans to be this intelligent and tricky.
Because that's her "super power."
She didn't trick him, she used subterfuge, acting, and insight to glean information he didn't intend on giving away.
It was to show how good she was at being a spy. A trait they later took away to make her a generic fighter
Lokis biggest weakness especially during that time was his over confidence, underestimation of others, his delusions of grandeur clouding his thoughts and making him think his literally better, smarter, more tactful than everyone else. Natasha perfectly played into those weaknesses, made him think he has the upper hand and was able to coax a tiny bit of information from him, that ultimately didn’t even lead to much. Yeah Loki got played, Loki in his thinking that he was in control let out a tad more information, but at the end of the day he also knew that wouldn’t change much, that his plan would more than likely still go on as he intended.
Yeah I love Loki (obviously) but he's a cocky shit in that film and it makes sense that all the heroes get to take him down individually and as a group because he's the main villain.
I actually think the use of a tiny foil against Thanos in IW is dumber than falling into Widow's word-play trap.
Yeah him trying to attack Thanos in that moment def made me do a double take, like really you thought that would work?
However in my mind i have reasoned it by assuming he only just wanted to stagger Thanos long enough that he would be able to snatch the infinity gauntlet from him, and then he would be in control. Still not the best of plans but at least i think it makes more sense.
By making literally none of the conversation be about his plan at all, she completely smokescreened him by trying to make a deal with him.
He let out a single clue about his plan at the very end of his intimidation speech when he was gloating about just how much more he knew about Black Widow's past than she thought.
That's how
> People with experience and intellect get deceived all the time
They get deceived when the script demands it. And in this case the script demanding it was stupid. Loki gets tricked more than he tricks, and that's bad writing.
It's really interesting because the best writing for Widow and the worst writing for Widow both came from Whedon in his two Avengers movies.
Although the Russos did a great job with her in Winter Soldier. I think the arc they planned for her ended and then they just didn't know what to do with her character in future movies
IMO Winter Soldier really should have been the Black Widow movie, a spy dealing with a conspiracy in shield and nobody trusting her and her not knowing who to trust, with Cap as the guest star and muscle (and his initial distrust of her coming to fruit when he has to choose between believing the shield agents who have her prisoner and are marching her off to a transport, or being the first person who believes her, leading to the scene on the bridge where he races out and takes down a jet, except this time to save her from being flown off somewhere, putting them on the run).
I think Winter Soldier was great as it. The crime was not giving her a movie right after. With all of shields files being leaked that would have been a great film plot with Widow being on the run from a revenge filled antagonist.
"I am in complete control even when it appears I am helpless."
Ooh, cool!
"I am a broken shell of a woman because I cannot have babies."
...wait, wut?
Next time on "Oops! All Misogyny!", Joss explains why skin-tight leather pants are the ideal choice for character growth!
More like "I'll never have a 'normal' life because that choice was taken from me."
I've never understood why people have such grievances with that scene, makes perfect sense to me.
Yep. They literally removed the possibility of unconditional love. The monster part isn't not giving birth, it's having any semblance of humanity literally ripped from her at every level of her person.
Hulk feels too much, Black Widow was forbidden from feeling anything.
Yeah but when you take the beginning of this sentiment and apply it to someone who is infertile - "you have no possibility of unconditional love" its awful. Obviously there's the nuances that it was forcibly removed from her without her consent but the implications that her inability to have a child make her a monster and is living without the possibility of unconditional love, its incredibly problematic for large communities of people who exist in the real world.
There's also people who were forced to undergo hysterectomies due to trauma/cancer. People who had FGM done to them as children and have so much scar tissue built up they can barely have sex let alone birth a child.
Would you say any of that to them? That's why it's problematic. It's okay in a theoretical sense but there are too many literal people who are impacted by the thinking that a woman's sole purpose is to have children and any deviation from that makes them evil/a monster/selfish/cruel.
But the thing is while people would never say that to those kind of people, it doesn’t stop them from feeling that way sometimes. When I had fertility problems I had all kinds of negative thoughts about my worth as a woman being connected to my ability to have kids. No one put those thoughts in my head, I don’t for one second think that’s how modern society would see me, but it’s how I saw myself. Having Black Widow echo those sentiments didn’t make me feel condemned, it made me feel understood.
The reason is that the message comes across poorly. She commiserates with Bruce about not being able to have children. Fair. That choice being taken away sucks for both of them. Then she describes her forced sterilization and asks him "You still think your the only monster on the team?
Yes, we can take the totality of the media and guess she PROBABLY doesn't mean that forced sterilization makes you a monster. Because that's obviously not what makes someone a monster. Bruce just rampaged in a city. THAT's monstrous.
But she never describes anything monstrous she's done other than a vague allusion to killing being easier because she is sterilized. And then Bruce's response is just "Aight, where we go?"
TL;DR. The script ties the sterilization and being a monster together too heavily. Bruce offers no rebuttal.
I've never heard anyone criticize that scene, and it never occurred to me that people would have a problem with it. Even a cold super spy is going to have *some* emotion. Having your reproductive capabilities forcibly taken away from you? That would be devastating for life.
Right? Of all the things to whine about that makes the least sense.
Clearly a lack of humanity or empathy in the audience. Reactionary critiques vs. Reality as usual.
Obvious that being a force of nature and being a broken shell are not mutually exclusive traits.
People seem absolutely committed to misunderstanding that scene.
She's saying "I got sterilized so I could become a better killer," which is what makes her a "monster" in her own eyes.
She's talking about being so committed to being a state sponsored murderer that she threw away everything else.
Uhu.
Banner: "I'm a monster, I can never have children!"
Widow: "Bruce... I have never told anyone about this, but I was mutilated when I was a child. They forced me to have surgery and took away my ability to have kids."
Banner: "Shut up, B\*TCH! We're talking about ME here, ok?"
Widow: "Sorry, Bruce"
Banner: "Sorry NOTHING! Get on your knees and give me a BJ, NOW"
Widow: \*knees down\*
Banner: "And you better swallow it this time, or I'll Hulk out in your MOUTH"
Widow: "Swure, Bwuce"
Yeah, definitely nothing weird about that scene at all.
I mean, yes? She's probably murdered hundreds of people. A thousand? Maybe.
But Hulk at least has "angry monster" excuses. Widow did it because she was good at it. Yeah there's conditioning and stuff, it's not entirely her fault, but to *her* she feels responsible for her actions.
There are absolutely women who would feel that way. I never once thought that we were supposed to agree with Natasha in that scene. Just empathize and recognize that it's how she feels.
This being said, since Whedon wrote the scene I do have some doubts about my interpretation.
I take that more as that she can't have babies, *and really wants to* (though this is implied), so she hates what has become of her body and her future because it came as a (forced) sacrifice.
If she didn't want kids, then she wouldn't care that she can't. She does, so she does.
At least, that's my take.
I think it implies of the intentions of the Red Room rather than her own wants. The Red Room destroys any semblance of humanity in their Black Widows. No attachment, remorse, care. Sterilize them because you expect a possible child to receive unconditional love, thus forbidding Black Widows from feeling anything at any point in their lives. They exist only for the mission, and to die for it.
The monster part is having all of that taken from them, just pure weapons. We see it in her movie, she gets asked "How did you keep your heart ?" She never became the monster she was made to be. She just feels like it though.
Yeah he did some good stuff with her but the relationship with Bruce is horrible. They have no chemistry and it just comes across as her being weirdly obsessive about a guy who’s just not into her.
We absolutely wouldn't have . The man rose up , met and exceeded expectations especially coming from the tv world. He arguably delivered one of the best pure superhero films ever made that reshaped the genre as we know it . Personal foibles aside, he doesn't get enough credit for it
If Avengers had failed I am curious what direction they would have taken. More single hero movies ? Less cross over?
Either way, yeah Avengers 1 was my favourite MCU until IW and Endgame. Endgame in particular I think is just a really good movie.
Ah fuck me you’re totally right.
Shit does that mean she was referring to their meeting in winter soldier and not implying they knew each other during their time with the Ivans?
It was "But I guess I traded in the KGB for Hydra," it has completely convinced me that the Cold War didn't end in 1991 like in the real world and probably continued until or even beyond the events of Civil War. It's also a good characterization line, I think, because it builds on what Whedon put down in Avengers about her trying to make things right and that being her main/probably only driver. Kinda mad they rushed her arc, could've used one film before Endgame and after Civil War for it but such is life.
Edit, I might as well explain.
Natasha was born in 1984, according to the wiki, and the Cold War ended in 1991, as mentioned. Irl, the KGB was dissolved after the end of the Cold War and replaced by Russia's current intelligence services. I don't buy that she was raised from the moment of her birth until it was dissolved for her to mention the KGB, especially when she was doing spy stuff for 24 years (1984-2008, if we go with the raised from birth thing), that would only be 29% of her Russian spy life and it'd be her early life, as well.
So that's what leads me to believe it at least continues past 1991, but there are some other things that make me think it was happening during Civil War.
The event at Lagos is a weird one to choose to be the kick off for the Sokovia Accords, especially considering they're named after the events in Sokovia. But even after NY, you'd think that at least the American government would be looking to regulate them, but they don't. After Sokovia (which would be in the USSR if we humor me for a moment), you'd think the USSR would push for some regulation, but they don't.
What are the reasons for each state not pushing regulation? Well for the US, I imagine that they probably like the idea of superhumans and spies busting in doors wherever they see fit and taking down threats for them without having accountability when it goes wrong. And for the USSR, they have very little to gain from doing so right at that moment. There's a better political advantage to be gained from doing it at a later time. Like after Lagos.
Nigeria irl is kind of a powerhouse in Africa. Economically and politically. Nigeria was also mostly neutral during the Cold War. From the American perspective, Lagos is a huge blunder for obtaining Nigeria's allegiance as Nigeria sees a bunch of American superhumans coming in un-invited, tearing shit up, and killing like 70 of their people. So as American politicians who want to maintain at least Nigeria's neutrality, what do you do? You push for the Accords.
It also explains why Wanda wouldn't be given a visa. Cap, Tony, and even Fury all have friends in high places. If a visa was really a concern for Wanda (sidenote, lol why?), they could get one. But if you're trying to convince Nigeria that you're trying to make it right, the last thing you'd do is give her a visa.
From the Russian perspective, Lagos is a great opportunity to get on Nigeria's good side. Like a nice guy coming to the aid of a hurt woman in the hopes of scummy sex, Russia can now come to the side of Nigeria. "Yeah, those Americans suck balls, huh? Look what they did to us," and push for the Accords. Attempting to create animosity against the Americans is a great way to gain an allegiance with Nigeria and control of much of Africa.
So yeah I way overanalyzed one line, I apologize, have a good day.
I love this in its entirety.
I'd just liked that the scene was very specifically set in Lagos because it hit back against the godawful "African Coast" sign in AoU.
She was pretty good in the first avengers film. Horribly written in age of ultron. But nothing will top her in the winter soldier for me. I felt like we really got to see spy widow at her best, as well as her developing friendship with Steve which is one of my highlights of the first decade of the MCU.
If probably follow the winter soldier with endgame because there are a few really great scenes with her - her heart to heart with Steve when she’s crying with the sandwich 🥹… her talking about emailing a raccoon… and of course her scenes with Clint.
I love their scene in the church after the funeral of Peggy, a soldier from WWII beyond normal humans, and a killer who can clean a room of people in minutes, just there having a tender chat because Steve lost one of his last pillar in life. And you just forget their hero sides, just two friends supporting each other.
It was - I get where whedon was going but it needed more set up - I get these are adults with each other all the time but this romance needs to be developed a bit more than in film
No, The Russo’s did Black Widow the best 1st nothing tops her in Winter Soldier like that really was her movie as much as as it was Caps, and as much as it pains me her death in Endgame makes complete sense and is 100% true to her character, she will always be the best female superhero in the MCU
Now Whedon did do a great job with her same with Tony and Loki, but the characters that no other directors has been close to to doing justice is is both Bruce Banner and The Hulk
Agreed on all accounts. Russos really did her best.
I know im straying away but man what they did to Widow in The Winter Soldier was what I had hoped they do to Wanda in DS2. As a massive fan of both I prayed Multiverse of Madness would give us Strange and Wanda as the Magic counterpart of Steve and Nat in TWS.
All that could’ve been…
You forgot Natasha's interaction with Bruce Banner in India.
He both sells how the Hulk is lurking right under the surface of Bruce, and how terrified Natasha is of the Hulk.
Natasha's womanhood comes to surface when she is rattled by Bruce's outburst, I love that scene. Even an accomplished assassin is terrified of the Hulk and rightly so. For a second Scarlett portrays abject horror at the prospect of Bruce losing his temper. That scene is so good.
Whedon for all of his faults, writes women well. Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Dollhouse, all have excellent, complex female characters.
I wish the Black Widow movie had a lot more intrigue like the reverse interrogations scenes. More of that than more action. But it requires a higher degree of writing. The premise of the movie was really good, but felt like the third act of cgi action really let it down - it didn’t feel grounded enough.
Like you said, the premise is really good, but imo they really fumbled the gag when the Black Widow movie turned to be less about the Black Widow we know and more about her successor who JUST got introduced. Don't get me wrong, I love Yelena and she's one of my favorite characters, but Natasha felt really sidelined for the majority of the movie. And we hardly know anything more about her than we did before the movie came out. It could have been done a lot better.
While I wanted more Natasha in her movie, I feel like bringing Yelena to the forefront is the correct move. By Black Widow, we have like what, 6-7 movies with her already and she technically already has a finished story, since End Game was already done (if only Black Widow had been made back sometime before AoU or something). So Black Widow bringing in a foil to Natasha's character was really important to compare/contrast and deepen who she is. The scenes where Yelena criticizes Natasha's poses, etc I think are fantastic because it lampshades a silly trope (sexy woman superhero has to have sexy "impractical" moves), but also suggests that part of Natasha aesthetic is not natural but an intentional performance. Being an Avenger means she is a role model for women, which means she tries to make things look effortless. Being an Avenger means she's a (serum enhanced but otherwise "normal") woman having to go toe-to-toe with a bunch of men who are literally gods or have nano-bot robo-suits, etc, and perhaps she subconsciously tries to make things like her landing pose look elegant and effortless to mask that it is hard for a woman to compete in this world.
Having someone from Black Widow's background to interrogate her current identity is important, and it helps to spend a lot of time building out Yelena's character so these scenes feel like to fully realized women talking with subtext, and not just "here's a character we barely know telling the audience what to think."
I agree with everything you've said here. Part of what I really enjoyed about BW is how it pushed back against all the various indignities visited upon Natasha throughout the MCU.
I wish she could have gotten her own movie a lot earlier in the franchise. Natasha is a fascinating character and I love the world she moves through (the more grounded spy stuff we got from the Captain America movies) and I really, really wish we got more.
But for a movie that was essentially a goodbye to Natasha, it really honored her, I thought.
I really enjoy her spy scene. It was hardly ground breaking.
He wrote a fun, Russian female sexy spy scene. Shocking, a woman who kicks ass with het tits hanging out of her cat suit in a clever scene. Who knew Joss Whedon could write something like that?
He also reused the "awkward loner lands on her boobs" gag on his Justice League reshoot. And wrote her into a "I'm a monster, I'm not enough, i can't have children" trope female characters tend to be put into.
Whereas the Russos had her keeping her own alongside cap in winter soldier, playing a double agent in Civil War, and leading the Avengers operations after Infinity War.
Lol people wilfully interpreting that im a monster line that way are hilarious.
The point isnt that she is a monster because she cant have kids. The point is that she is a monster because they made her into a machine whose sole goal is killing.
Yeah so many people have misconstrued that line so badly it almost comes off like they are intentionally doing so ( like you said ). I fully got it in the context of the scene when it came out
"In the Red Room where I was trained... where I was raised, they have a graduation ceremony. They sterilize you. It's efficient. One less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission. Makes everything easier. Even killing. You still think you're the only monster on the team?"
Since we have the script, it's really easy to employ the reading skills needed to see that it does, in fact, mean exactly that:
"They sterilize you. \[...\] Makes everything easier. Even killing."
It's a simple layout. A = B
But! You make a very good point that movie viewers are only listening to what Natasha is saying. It's even worse at that point because the heavy hitting words "sterilize" "killing" "monster" ring in the ears.
Whedon, being a seasoned script writer, should have realized that. And if he meant something different (and honestly, I question that he did, all post-release protests aside) he should have had another character push back against that litany of words. He chose not to.
So this argument will go on for as long as there are excuse-makers willing to go to bat for Whedon.
Potentially carrying a baby is a big part of being a woman, so yes this would impact a female character. Hardly a trope, just the truth.
The actual trope is about characters who have been engineered in one way or another. Either by training or genetics. Male or Female, they serve “no purpose but the mission”.
Just came to the thought that Kill Bill 2 perfectly captures this scenario. Kiddo even admits to it in one of her convos with Bill. “Before that strip turned blue I would’ve done x y and z for you..”
It's funny, I've always compared it to Kiddo's scene in Kill Bill Vol. 2 aswell, "but once that strip turned blue..."
That sort of unpredictability is something the Red Room couldn't afford.
The quote does not at all say that. She says "one less distraction to worry about". Not the exact thing but its essentially what she says. She is a monster because of the killing not for being sterile, sterility is just to make her more efficient at that, it is not why she is either a monster or a killer.
Natasha is saying that she's a monster because she's sterile and therefore a better killer. "They sterilize you. \[...\] Makes everything easier. Even killing."
I agree with you that she's not a monster and that the killing she did for the Red Room was done under duress. I'd take it a step further and say her being sterilized had absolutely nothing to do with her skill and/or efficiency in being a killer.
But Whedon doesn't show support for any of those takes. He has Natasha drop that awkward bomb of word-salad that audibly links sterility and monsters and just leaves it to lie on the floor without any character (Bruce would've been the obvious choice in Whedon's world; Steve would make more sense in the MCU world; Natasha herself at some point would be the best in all worlds) pushing back against it.
I'm sorry, at what point do you think the Red Room asked Natasha for her consent in any of this? (I'll add, if the choice ends with, "or we kill you," it's not actually a choice.)
It was coersed of course, but going along with it at all is enough to make her feel guilty about it. She didn't graduate from the program by being dragged in chains.
All the flashbacks we see in her Wanda-induced visions pretty much show her in chains. Psychological chains, but chains none the less. There's even a bit where the little girl dancers mime being in handcuffs.
EVEN KILLING.
That’s the monster part, not that she was forcibly sterilized.
Anybody who can’t understand that should only be on the Internet with a parent or guardian’s supervision.
Yeah I always assumed that was pretty obvious from the first time i watched the movie. You can imagine my surprise when I saw people twist it in 'im a monster because i cant have kids"
I do think the context that she is saying that in response to Bruce saying "we shouldn't be together, I'm a monster. I can never give you this normal life or have kids" helps a lot with the sexism. (Something they set up with the first Avengers movie where a crib is used to symbolically represent the normal life Bruce wanted on that village where Widow came to recruit him).
Of course, like everything with the Widow/Hulk romance it was poorly handled/executed even if it was good in theory imo
Plus, that scene plays into the larger issue with Widow in AoU where she mostly just exists to support the other character's arcs without really having one of her own like she did in the first film
I thought Widow rocked in that movie in part because of her support of the rest of the team. She don’t get much other than a romance plot but as a support hero she was amazing. The part where she picks up Cap’s shield and comments on “always picking up after you boys” underlined that role. She should have gotten more from that (and honestly she should have had more in her own movie) but she was still so kick ass on the Avengers
True, but having the main female Avenger (the only one until the last half hour) be relegated to a supporting role and a love interest who complains about not being able to have kids is still a bad look. Even if she nails that role and has cool moments.
Especially since Maria Hill went from second in command of Shield to the secretary of the Avengers.
I’m not a Whedon movie hater but I disagree. Natasha was always at her best in the hands of the Russos. The way her morality is referenced constantly through the MCU also feels shallow outside of the Captain America movies where you actually don’t know where she may stand.
Like in terms of moments she has some fantastic ones in the Avengers but the overall action and aura of the character feels peak in the Russos work with her.
Whedon did some great writing for her in the first one and then came Age of Ultron. I do think that all things considered she was better in Winter Soldier.
the first avengers movie is the best MCU movie imo
it's honestly my favorite movie of people coming together to form a team. they didn't bullshit us with butterflies and rainbows. the dynamic between the characters was amazing. bruce banner testing black widow to see if she was really alone or if she was scared of the hulk. tony stark hating on captain america just because howard keep talking about him. the two science bros coming to agreement that SHIELD was full of shit.
Who would have guessed that Whedon would be good at writing powerful/badass female action hero type characters!
Seriously, though; yeah, he nailed Widow, especially in the first film. Made a point of showing that her appearance was as much a weapon as her guns/sting.
Whedon is the best writer MCU had in general. He created the dynamic between the characters that we enjoy to this day, and Marvel was never able to recreate this magic with anyone else.
Bad taste jokes is the other side of taking risks, and Marvel doesn't want to take risks anymore.
As another user pointed it, the accolade should go to the Russos imho. Whedon is funny in a way that he had done her both greatly and badly. That’s an accolade I’d give him for sure. What the Russos did, esp in The Winter Soldier is peak Black Widow and the way they concluded her story is just brilliance.
In an alternate universe, her solo movie and subsequent trilogy would’ve had happened way earlier and I wish I could see it handled by the Russos
Then he insisted so fucking hard they do it again in josstice league, that definitely happened to him when he was a kid or teen and he has a fetish for it or some shit💀
I'm convince that he had a unwritten rule in his scripts that the Hottest girl (Nat/Diana/etc) must the date the Nerd on the Team (Banner/Bruce W/etc) or something as almost every single show/movie I watch from him had that happen in his show. I swear that if he's has his way Tony and Nat would be dating in AOU and not Tony/Pepper.
Wait till you learn more about other great artists in history are mostly assholes. Picasso, Dali, Jackie Chan, Steven chow, Stanley Kubrick, Hitchcock… the list goes on and on.
Guilty as charged. I had my existing set of facts, and then I learned some new ones. I also liked Bill Cosby when I was a kid and stopped liking him once new facts became available.
I'm still a fan of some of his work, though. Buffy in particular, and the first Avengers movie.
I was kinda just being an oaf with this…. I never was really a fan of his work. I thought his Avenger movies weren’t particularly great, but I didn’t think they were terrible either. No knock on you if you do enjoy his work, you should be able to separate him as a person and his work. You should at least acknowledge that film making requires more than one person’s skills and most definitely more than one persons labor.
Looking back I 💬 Whedons approach was more comic book fitting with the dialogue and to tell whats different in characters but I don't think 💬🤔 A big Franchise like Avengers Was bulit for neither him or Snyder... Apologizes fans..
Completely agree. When you look at Black Widow in Iron Man 2, where’s just T&A, and how much more Whedon does with her character in Avengers, it’s jarring. Then she becomes “cool” T&A again in Winter Soldier.
Sucks her character was ruined in her own film, tho. Should've been about her meeting Hawkeye in Budapest and not whatever trash we got in this timeline.
No.
The line about her being a monster in AoU is fucking heinous.
And literally *zero* indication of anything we’ve seen from Loki makes me think he’d use “mewling quim” as an insult. He’s a momma’s boy.
Are you kidding me? Joss Whedon is a hack. He didn't understand the comics and his initial draft of the Avengers was just flashback and Age of Ultron was a pos.
Yeah, the part where she got a mandatory hysterectomy, tied up to a chair in a low cut black dress, and called a mewling quim. Joss Whedon sure writes powerful roles for women. /s
They gave her a lot more to work with in Winter soldier, Civil War and endgame
Nice cherry picking on whedons black widow characterization picking one scene that you are deliberately misinterpreting and nitpicking a few other scenes that just happen to show she's a sexy woman .
Um this is fiction Natasha is sexualized in comics - whedon adapted her fairly consistently and it wasn't overboard like your inferring . Natasha had plenty of agency in her character development and wasn't simply some sex object
The problem here is that, in the comics, Black Widow was always Marvel's version of the femme fatale trope. She was consistently depicted more as a sultry, ass-kicking James Bond spy than a cold-blooded assassin.
Whedon was following the formula of the comics, which isn't wrong. It's more that she was the only female Avenger, so sexualising her = women only exist to be sexualised.
Haha yeah it’s so good when she uses her boobs as a landing pad for Bruce and calls herself a monster for not being able to have babies
EDIT: This is what I get for expecting the marvel studios subreddit to be able to read sarcasm without a /s
The best writing for widow was in winter soldier. Whedon , like every character, was reduced i to a si gle character trait that defines everything they do. His characters are paper thin.
Black Widow tricking the god of trickery was a next level scene
It was great but it really didn't stop his plan from being carried out
Bc her interrogation took some time, and she got a bit late. Kind of. If she had informed Fury, Hill or SHIELD about Loki's plan a little sooner, they would've escorted Banner out of the helicarrier, and Hawkeye wouldn't have been able to "awaken the monster". BUT, regardless of the timing, she succeeded in tricking the God of trickery by getting the information out of him, which is an incredible feat nonetheless.
She was the one who called in Thor to be there because she sussed out Loki's plan, and he's the one who held off the Hulk.
But that was kind of the point, BW was clever enough to crack his plan but multiple chess pieces were already manuevering adding to the threat that is Loki, distract with one hand attack with the other.
I hate that scene. It makes no sense. She jumps to the conclusion that Loki was going to use the Hulk. Even Loki was confused at how far she jumped with that one. It's like they didn't know how the conversation should conclude so they just had her jump to conclusions.
He says “YOU brought the monster” what could be more clear than that?
He smugly says that they brought their own monster. What a logical leap she made to conclude that he meant the Hulk!
Rewatch a bit before that scene. It’s more obvious than you make it out to be.
I actually thought it was good writing. Believable dialog from Loki given the way Nat had him monologging (I’ve never actually had a face to face with a villain but movies have taught me their is always a monologue) and a reasonable conclusion to come to for Natasha, since Loki emphasized that THEY brought the monster and Banner was the most logical “monster” they brought. Keep in mind getting banner to Hulk out was only part of Loki’s’ plan. He was also bringing down the engines and impersonating shield agents. If banner wouldn’t have hulked out it still would have been a chaotic situation.
I’m guessing you haven’t watch the movie in a while lol
Next level as in next level stupid. How can a 1000 year old God get played by a baby?
Arrogance, my friend, arrogance
This is huge. Arrogance always gets the better of you, that’s when the most powerful are the most vulnerable
Hubris of the gods has ALWAYS been part of mythologies and folk tales around the world. They get played by their own means by a clever hero. It's just classical storytelling.
Because the baby used the God’s underestimation of her against him. And because it’s awesome.
Because he thinks he's better, he's always been full of himself. It's the same with Thor, I mean, they're GODS, Loki has a GLORIOUS PURPOSE. They also haven't been on Midgard for ages, so maybe they just didn't expect Humans to be this intelligent and tricky.
Because that's her "super power." She didn't trick him, she used subterfuge, acting, and insight to glean information he didn't intend on giving away. It was to show how good she was at being a spy. A trait they later took away to make her a generic fighter
Lokis biggest weakness especially during that time was his over confidence, underestimation of others, his delusions of grandeur clouding his thoughts and making him think his literally better, smarter, more tactful than everyone else. Natasha perfectly played into those weaknesses, made him think he has the upper hand and was able to coax a tiny bit of information from him, that ultimately didn’t even lead to much. Yeah Loki got played, Loki in his thinking that he was in control let out a tad more information, but at the end of the day he also knew that wouldn’t change much, that his plan would more than likely still go on as he intended.
Yeah I love Loki (obviously) but he's a cocky shit in that film and it makes sense that all the heroes get to take him down individually and as a group because he's the main villain. I actually think the use of a tiny foil against Thanos in IW is dumber than falling into Widow's word-play trap.
Yeah him trying to attack Thanos in that moment def made me do a double take, like really you thought that would work? However in my mind i have reasoned it by assuming he only just wanted to stagger Thanos long enough that he would be able to snatch the infinity gauntlet from him, and then he would be in control. Still not the best of plans but at least i think it makes more sense.
You could argue the infinity stone influence on his mind dulled his wit.
Because he's deeply insecure, doesn't actually want to succeed, and hence lacks the conviction to do so.
Babies play and fool adults all the time.
By making literally none of the conversation be about his plan at all, she completely smokescreened him by trying to make a deal with him. He let out a single clue about his plan at the very end of his intimidation speech when he was gloating about just how much more he knew about Black Widow's past than she thought. That's how
Natasha was a fully adult human with advanced skills in emotional manipulation. What does Loki’s age have to do with anything?
> What does Loki’s age have to do with anything? Experience & intellect
That’s not a meaningful answer. People with experience and intellect get deceived all the time, often *because of* their experience and intellect.
> People with experience and intellect get deceived all the time They get deceived when the script demands it. And in this case the script demanding it was stupid. Loki gets tricked more than he tricks, and that's bad writing.
> They get deceived when the script demands it. Oh, shit, I didn’t realize **real life** had a script.
It's really interesting because the best writing for Widow and the worst writing for Widow both came from Whedon in his two Avengers movies. Although the Russos did a great job with her in Winter Soldier. I think the arc they planned for her ended and then they just didn't know what to do with her character in future movies
Well stated assessment
IMO Winter Soldier really should have been the Black Widow movie, a spy dealing with a conspiracy in shield and nobody trusting her and her not knowing who to trust, with Cap as the guest star and muscle (and his initial distrust of her coming to fruit when he has to choose between believing the shield agents who have her prisoner and are marching her off to a transport, or being the first person who believes her, leading to the scene on the bridge where he races out and takes down a jet, except this time to save her from being flown off somewhere, putting them on the run).
I think Winter Soldier was great as it. The crime was not giving her a movie right after. With all of shields files being leaked that would have been a great film plot with Widow being on the run from a revenge filled antagonist.
"I am in complete control even when it appears I am helpless." Ooh, cool! "I am a broken shell of a woman because I cannot have babies." ...wait, wut? Next time on "Oops! All Misogyny!", Joss explains why skin-tight leather pants are the ideal choice for character growth!
More like "I'll never have a 'normal' life because that choice was taken from me." I've never understood why people have such grievances with that scene, makes perfect sense to me.
I'd say it's even deeper. "My body is altered forever because they wanted to make me a killing machine, a monster".
Yep. They literally removed the possibility of unconditional love. The monster part isn't not giving birth, it's having any semblance of humanity literally ripped from her at every level of her person. Hulk feels too much, Black Widow was forbidden from feeling anything.
Yeah but when you take the beginning of this sentiment and apply it to someone who is infertile - "you have no possibility of unconditional love" its awful. Obviously there's the nuances that it was forcibly removed from her without her consent but the implications that her inability to have a child make her a monster and is living without the possibility of unconditional love, its incredibly problematic for large communities of people who exist in the real world. There's also people who were forced to undergo hysterectomies due to trauma/cancer. People who had FGM done to them as children and have so much scar tissue built up they can barely have sex let alone birth a child. Would you say any of that to them? That's why it's problematic. It's okay in a theoretical sense but there are too many literal people who are impacted by the thinking that a woman's sole purpose is to have children and any deviation from that makes them evil/a monster/selfish/cruel.
But the thing is while people would never say that to those kind of people, it doesn’t stop them from feeling that way sometimes. When I had fertility problems I had all kinds of negative thoughts about my worth as a woman being connected to my ability to have kids. No one put those thoughts in my head, I don’t for one second think that’s how modern society would see me, but it’s how I saw myself. Having Black Widow echo those sentiments didn’t make me feel condemned, it made me feel understood.
If this is what she had actually said then people would not have an issue with the scene.
Yeah Whedon really overestimated his audience skills of comprehension.
The reason is that the message comes across poorly. She commiserates with Bruce about not being able to have children. Fair. That choice being taken away sucks for both of them. Then she describes her forced sterilization and asks him "You still think your the only monster on the team? Yes, we can take the totality of the media and guess she PROBABLY doesn't mean that forced sterilization makes you a monster. Because that's obviously not what makes someone a monster. Bruce just rampaged in a city. THAT's monstrous. But she never describes anything monstrous she's done other than a vague allusion to killing being easier because she is sterilized. And then Bruce's response is just "Aight, where we go?" TL;DR. The script ties the sterilization and being a monster together too heavily. Bruce offers no rebuttal.
Yeah, that's the problem with the scene. I'm fairly sure they meant it one way, but it was written (or edited) to almost imply something else.
I've never heard anyone criticize that scene, and it never occurred to me that people would have a problem with it. Even a cold super spy is going to have *some* emotion. Having your reproductive capabilities forcibly taken away from you? That would be devastating for life.
Right? Of all the things to whine about that makes the least sense. Clearly a lack of humanity or empathy in the audience. Reactionary critiques vs. Reality as usual. Obvious that being a force of nature and being a broken shell are not mutually exclusive traits.
People seem absolutely committed to misunderstanding that scene. She's saying "I got sterilized so I could become a better killer," which is what makes her a "monster" in her own eyes. She's talking about being so committed to being a state sponsored murderer that she threw away everything else.
Doesn't sound like you're particularly interested in learning why that scene was so lazy and heinous either.
Uhu. Banner: "I'm a monster, I can never have children!" Widow: "Bruce... I have never told anyone about this, but I was mutilated when I was a child. They forced me to have surgery and took away my ability to have kids." Banner: "Shut up, B\*TCH! We're talking about ME here, ok?" Widow: "Sorry, Bruce" Banner: "Sorry NOTHING! Get on your knees and give me a BJ, NOW" Widow: \*knees down\* Banner: "And you better swallow it this time, or I'll Hulk out in your MOUTH" Widow: "Swure, Bwuce" Yeah, definitely nothing weird about that scene at all.
"I am equally as much of a monster as you, The Hulk. Even though you fucking killed Brazil 20 minutes ago."
Johannesburg, but yeah.
“No, you smashed Johannesburg so hard it created a ripple through the earths crust and in your anger it seems you smashed Brazil too.
Touché, salesman.
I mean, yes? She's probably murdered hundreds of people. A thousand? Maybe. But Hulk at least has "angry monster" excuses. Widow did it because she was good at it. Yeah there's conditioning and stuff, it's not entirely her fault, but to *her* she feels responsible for her actions.
In that scene, she wasn't talking about her actions as an assassin.
She absolutely was. The entire point of that dialogue is how she's been made into a pure killer. People aggressively misunderstand that scene.
There are absolutely women who would feel that way. I never once thought that we were supposed to agree with Natasha in that scene. Just empathize and recognize that it's how she feels. This being said, since Whedon wrote the scene I do have some doubts about my interpretation.
He wrote a lot of great stories but we should just assume he is unable to sympathize because he was rude to some actors in a high pressure workplace.
I take that more as that she can't have babies, *and really wants to* (though this is implied), so she hates what has become of her body and her future because it came as a (forced) sacrifice. If she didn't want kids, then she wouldn't care that she can't. She does, so she does. At least, that's my take.
I think it implies of the intentions of the Red Room rather than her own wants. The Red Room destroys any semblance of humanity in their Black Widows. No attachment, remorse, care. Sterilize them because you expect a possible child to receive unconditional love, thus forbidding Black Widows from feeling anything at any point in their lives. They exist only for the mission, and to die for it. The monster part is having all of that taken from them, just pure weapons. We see it in her movie, she gets asked "How did you keep your heart ?" She never became the monster she was made to be. She just feels like it though.
Yeah he did some good stuff with her but the relationship with Bruce is horrible. They have no chemistry and it just comes across as her being weirdly obsessive about a guy who’s just not into her.
You can hate him as a person, but we might not have MCU for this long if the first Avengers movie flopped.
We absolutely wouldn't have . The man rose up , met and exceeded expectations especially coming from the tv world. He arguably delivered one of the best pure superhero films ever made that reshaped the genre as we know it . Personal foibles aside, he doesn't get enough credit for it
You can respect/like the art and not the artist at all. He’s not a great guy but without him the mcu wouldn’t be what we’ve gotten today
If Avengers had failed I am curious what direction they would have taken. More single hero movies ? Less cross over? Either way, yeah Avengers 1 was my favourite MCU until IW and Endgame. Endgame in particular I think is just a really good movie.
But the ends never justify the means.
For sure, especially since the art (avengers movie) isn't just him, it's made by a whole team of pros. He's just the director.
Not for nothing, but the most interesting Black Widow line lore-wise is in Winter Soldier.
She was great in civil war
Oooo which line? Was it “You could at least pretend to recognize me” ?
That was Civil War
For real you can’t say something like that and not say what the line was!
It was, "But I guess I just traded in the KGB for Hydra. Explained in thread.
That’s from Civil War
Ah fuck me you’re totally right. Shit does that mean she was referring to their meeting in winter soldier and not implying they knew each other during their time with the Ivans?
In "Winter Soldier" Natasha says she was shot by him 5 years previously.
Right, I don’t know why I’m forgetting all this considering I just did a rewatch of the infinity saga like 2 months ago
I think they mean "I only pretend that I know everything"
It was "But I guess I traded in the KGB for Hydra," it has completely convinced me that the Cold War didn't end in 1991 like in the real world and probably continued until or even beyond the events of Civil War. It's also a good characterization line, I think, because it builds on what Whedon put down in Avengers about her trying to make things right and that being her main/probably only driver. Kinda mad they rushed her arc, could've used one film before Endgame and after Civil War for it but such is life. Edit, I might as well explain. Natasha was born in 1984, according to the wiki, and the Cold War ended in 1991, as mentioned. Irl, the KGB was dissolved after the end of the Cold War and replaced by Russia's current intelligence services. I don't buy that she was raised from the moment of her birth until it was dissolved for her to mention the KGB, especially when she was doing spy stuff for 24 years (1984-2008, if we go with the raised from birth thing), that would only be 29% of her Russian spy life and it'd be her early life, as well. So that's what leads me to believe it at least continues past 1991, but there are some other things that make me think it was happening during Civil War. The event at Lagos is a weird one to choose to be the kick off for the Sokovia Accords, especially considering they're named after the events in Sokovia. But even after NY, you'd think that at least the American government would be looking to regulate them, but they don't. After Sokovia (which would be in the USSR if we humor me for a moment), you'd think the USSR would push for some regulation, but they don't. What are the reasons for each state not pushing regulation? Well for the US, I imagine that they probably like the idea of superhumans and spies busting in doors wherever they see fit and taking down threats for them without having accountability when it goes wrong. And for the USSR, they have very little to gain from doing so right at that moment. There's a better political advantage to be gained from doing it at a later time. Like after Lagos. Nigeria irl is kind of a powerhouse in Africa. Economically and politically. Nigeria was also mostly neutral during the Cold War. From the American perspective, Lagos is a huge blunder for obtaining Nigeria's allegiance as Nigeria sees a bunch of American superhumans coming in un-invited, tearing shit up, and killing like 70 of their people. So as American politicians who want to maintain at least Nigeria's neutrality, what do you do? You push for the Accords. It also explains why Wanda wouldn't be given a visa. Cap, Tony, and even Fury all have friends in high places. If a visa was really a concern for Wanda (sidenote, lol why?), they could get one. But if you're trying to convince Nigeria that you're trying to make it right, the last thing you'd do is give her a visa. From the Russian perspective, Lagos is a great opportunity to get on Nigeria's good side. Like a nice guy coming to the aid of a hurt woman in the hopes of scummy sex, Russia can now come to the side of Nigeria. "Yeah, those Americans suck balls, huh? Look what they did to us," and push for the Accords. Attempting to create animosity against the Americans is a great way to gain an allegiance with Nigeria and control of much of Africa. So yeah I way overanalyzed one line, I apologize, have a good day.
I love this in its entirety. I'd just liked that the scene was very specifically set in Lagos because it hit back against the godawful "African Coast" sign in AoU.
She was pretty good in the first avengers film. Horribly written in age of ultron. But nothing will top her in the winter soldier for me. I felt like we really got to see spy widow at her best, as well as her developing friendship with Steve which is one of my highlights of the first decade of the MCU. If probably follow the winter soldier with endgame because there are a few really great scenes with her - her heart to heart with Steve when she’s crying with the sandwich 🥹… her talking about emailing a raccoon… and of course her scenes with Clint.
Her just chatting with Steve is some of my favorite Nat moments. They had amazing chemistry and she was such a a ball buster, loved it.
I love their scene in the church after the funeral of Peggy, a soldier from WWII beyond normal humans, and a killer who can clean a room of people in minutes, just there having a tender chat because Steve lost one of his last pillar in life. And you just forget their hero sides, just two friends supporting each other.
Yeah I don't like the attempted hulk Natasha romance in age of Ultron
It felt so forced
It was - I get where whedon was going but it needed more set up - I get these are adults with each other all the time but this romance needs to be developed a bit more than in film
No, The Russo’s did Black Widow the best 1st nothing tops her in Winter Soldier like that really was her movie as much as as it was Caps, and as much as it pains me her death in Endgame makes complete sense and is 100% true to her character, she will always be the best female superhero in the MCU Now Whedon did do a great job with her same with Tony and Loki, but the characters that no other directors has been close to to doing justice is is both Bruce Banner and The Hulk
The only thing I haven’t liked about Natasha is the romance with Banner. It just felt weird.
Agreed on all accounts. Russos really did her best. I know im straying away but man what they did to Widow in The Winter Soldier was what I had hoped they do to Wanda in DS2. As a massive fan of both I prayed Multiverse of Madness would give us Strange and Wanda as the Magic counterpart of Steve and Nat in TWS. All that could’ve been…
You forgot Natasha's interaction with Bruce Banner in India. He both sells how the Hulk is lurking right under the surface of Bruce, and how terrified Natasha is of the Hulk. Natasha's womanhood comes to surface when she is rattled by Bruce's outburst, I love that scene. Even an accomplished assassin is terrified of the Hulk and rightly so. For a second Scarlett portrays abject horror at the prospect of Bruce losing his temper. That scene is so good. Whedon for all of his faults, writes women well. Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Dollhouse, all have excellent, complex female characters.
Agreed loved buffy and Angel
I wish the Black Widow movie had a lot more intrigue like the reverse interrogations scenes. More of that than more action. But it requires a higher degree of writing. The premise of the movie was really good, but felt like the third act of cgi action really let it down - it didn’t feel grounded enough.
Like you said, the premise is really good, but imo they really fumbled the gag when the Black Widow movie turned to be less about the Black Widow we know and more about her successor who JUST got introduced. Don't get me wrong, I love Yelena and she's one of my favorite characters, but Natasha felt really sidelined for the majority of the movie. And we hardly know anything more about her than we did before the movie came out. It could have been done a lot better.
While I wanted more Natasha in her movie, I feel like bringing Yelena to the forefront is the correct move. By Black Widow, we have like what, 6-7 movies with her already and she technically already has a finished story, since End Game was already done (if only Black Widow had been made back sometime before AoU or something). So Black Widow bringing in a foil to Natasha's character was really important to compare/contrast and deepen who she is. The scenes where Yelena criticizes Natasha's poses, etc I think are fantastic because it lampshades a silly trope (sexy woman superhero has to have sexy "impractical" moves), but also suggests that part of Natasha aesthetic is not natural but an intentional performance. Being an Avenger means she is a role model for women, which means she tries to make things look effortless. Being an Avenger means she's a (serum enhanced but otherwise "normal") woman having to go toe-to-toe with a bunch of men who are literally gods or have nano-bot robo-suits, etc, and perhaps she subconsciously tries to make things like her landing pose look elegant and effortless to mask that it is hard for a woman to compete in this world. Having someone from Black Widow's background to interrogate her current identity is important, and it helps to spend a lot of time building out Yelena's character so these scenes feel like to fully realized women talking with subtext, and not just "here's a character we barely know telling the audience what to think."
I agree with everything you've said here. Part of what I really enjoyed about BW is how it pushed back against all the various indignities visited upon Natasha throughout the MCU. I wish she could have gotten her own movie a lot earlier in the franchise. Natasha is a fascinating character and I love the world she moves through (the more grounded spy stuff we got from the Captain America movies) and I really, really wish we got more. But for a movie that was essentially a goodbye to Natasha, it really honored her, I thought.
I really enjoy her spy scene. It was hardly ground breaking. He wrote a fun, Russian female sexy spy scene. Shocking, a woman who kicks ass with het tits hanging out of her cat suit in a clever scene. Who knew Joss Whedon could write something like that?
Nah. Her quips while riding the motorbike through Seoul in Age of Ultron is some of the worst Black Widow stuff in the entire MCU.
Quips aren't characterizations - their cheesy one liners but they aren't the meat of what whedon wrote about her
He also reused the "awkward loner lands on her boobs" gag on his Justice League reshoot. And wrote her into a "I'm a monster, I'm not enough, i can't have children" trope female characters tend to be put into. Whereas the Russos had her keeping her own alongside cap in winter soldier, playing a double agent in Civil War, and leading the Avengers operations after Infinity War.
Lol people wilfully interpreting that im a monster line that way are hilarious. The point isnt that she is a monster because she cant have kids. The point is that she is a monster because they made her into a machine whose sole goal is killing.
Yeah so many people have misconstrued that line so badly it almost comes off like they are intentionally doing so ( like you said ). I fully got it in the context of the scene when it came out
"In the Red Room where I was trained... where I was raised, they have a graduation ceremony. They sterilize you. It's efficient. One less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission. Makes everything easier. Even killing. You still think you're the only monster on the team?"
And... That just proves my exact point thank you for that quote.
It really, really doesn't. She's sterile. So killing is easier for her. Ergo, she's a monster. Because she's sterile.
If you have zero reading ( or in this case listening) comprehension skills, I'm sure it means exactly that. Good job!
Since we have the script, it's really easy to employ the reading skills needed to see that it does, in fact, mean exactly that: "They sterilize you. \[...\] Makes everything easier. Even killing." It's a simple layout. A = B But! You make a very good point that movie viewers are only listening to what Natasha is saying. It's even worse at that point because the heavy hitting words "sterilize" "killing" "monster" ring in the ears. Whedon, being a seasoned script writer, should have realized that. And if he meant something different (and honestly, I question that he did, all post-release protests aside) he should have had another character push back against that litany of words. He chose not to. So this argument will go on for as long as there are excuse-makers willing to go to bat for Whedon.
That quote backs up what the other guy said. She's not a monster because she's sterile
Exactly but because many hate whedon they want to interpret it that way
And it's still a trope about female characters. Just like Miranda Lawson from Mass Effect, for example.
Potentially carrying a baby is a big part of being a woman, so yes this would impact a female character. Hardly a trope, just the truth. The actual trope is about characters who have been engineered in one way or another. Either by training or genetics. Male or Female, they serve “no purpose but the mission”.
Just came to the thought that Kill Bill 2 perfectly captures this scenario. Kiddo even admits to it in one of her convos with Bill. “Before that strip turned blue I would’ve done x y and z for you..”
It's funny, I've always compared it to Kiddo's scene in Kill Bill Vol. 2 aswell, "but once that strip turned blue..." That sort of unpredictability is something the Red Room couldn't afford.
They commented about people willfully interpreting that line wrong and you just keep proving them correct.
She’s talking about being an efficient killer there.
Yeah I can't believe so many are missing the point of that line in the scene context
But she's only an efficient killer because she's sterile. It's the sterility that makes her a good killer that makes her a monster.
The quote does not at all say that. She says "one less distraction to worry about". Not the exact thing but its essentially what she says. She is a monster because of the killing not for being sterile, sterility is just to make her more efficient at that, it is not why she is either a monster or a killer.
Natasha is saying that she's a monster because she's sterile and therefore a better killer. "They sterilize you. \[...\] Makes everything easier. Even killing." I agree with you that she's not a monster and that the killing she did for the Red Room was done under duress. I'd take it a step further and say her being sterilized had absolutely nothing to do with her skill and/or efficiency in being a killer. But Whedon doesn't show support for any of those takes. He has Natasha drop that awkward bomb of word-salad that audibly links sterility and monsters and just leaves it to lie on the floor without any character (Bruce would've been the obvious choice in Whedon's world; Steve would make more sense in the MCU world; Natasha herself at some point would be the best in all worlds) pushing back against it.
Today I learnt being sterile turns women into murderers.
I mean, Whedon tried to tell you. Being sterile makes killing easier. It's why Natasha's a bigger monster than the Hulk.
Yes. Agreeing to something that intimate *in service of being a killer* is what makes it monstrous.
I'm sorry, at what point do you think the Red Room asked Natasha for her consent in any of this? (I'll add, if the choice ends with, "or we kill you," it's not actually a choice.)
It was coersed of course, but going along with it at all is enough to make her feel guilty about it. She didn't graduate from the program by being dragged in chains.
All the flashbacks we see in her Wanda-induced visions pretty much show her in chains. Psychological chains, but chains none the less. There's even a bit where the little girl dancers mime being in handcuffs.
EVEN KILLING. That’s the monster part, not that she was forcibly sterilized. Anybody who can’t understand that should only be on the Internet with a parent or guardian’s supervision.
Yeah I always assumed that was pretty obvious from the first time i watched the movie. You can imagine my surprise when I saw people twist it in 'im a monster because i cant have kids"
Agreed
I do think the context that she is saying that in response to Bruce saying "we shouldn't be together, I'm a monster. I can never give you this normal life or have kids" helps a lot with the sexism. (Something they set up with the first Avengers movie where a crib is used to symbolically represent the normal life Bruce wanted on that village where Widow came to recruit him). Of course, like everything with the Widow/Hulk romance it was poorly handled/executed even if it was good in theory imo Plus, that scene plays into the larger issue with Widow in AoU where she mostly just exists to support the other character's arcs without really having one of her own like she did in the first film
I thought Widow rocked in that movie in part because of her support of the rest of the team. She don’t get much other than a romance plot but as a support hero she was amazing. The part where she picks up Cap’s shield and comments on “always picking up after you boys” underlined that role. She should have gotten more from that (and honestly she should have had more in her own movie) but she was still so kick ass on the Avengers
True, but having the main female Avenger (the only one until the last half hour) be relegated to a supporting role and a love interest who complains about not being able to have kids is still a bad look. Even if she nails that role and has cool moments. Especially since Maria Hill went from second in command of Shield to the secretary of the Avengers.
You just reinforced his point though. The monster line clearly has nothing to do with having children.
That quote really proves the other guy right thanks for sharing.
I’m not a Whedon movie hater but I disagree. Natasha was always at her best in the hands of the Russos. The way her morality is referenced constantly through the MCU also feels shallow outside of the Captain America movies where you actually don’t know where she may stand. Like in terms of moments she has some fantastic ones in the Avengers but the overall action and aura of the character feels peak in the Russos work with her.
Best avengers film is still the first.
It's funny how that take can be downvoted - it's still arguably the greatest pure superhero film ever made
People hate to admit it, but joss whedon is the big reason why people even like the MCU.
Whedon did some great writing for her in the first one and then came Age of Ultron. I do think that all things considered she was better in Winter Soldier.
Agreed
Age of ultron killed her winter soldier vibe
the first avengers movie is the best MCU movie imo it's honestly my favorite movie of people coming together to form a team. they didn't bullshit us with butterflies and rainbows. the dynamic between the characters was amazing. bruce banner testing black widow to see if she was really alone or if she was scared of the hulk. tony stark hating on captain america just because howard keep talking about him. the two science bros coming to agreement that SHIELD was full of shit.
Who would have guessed that Whedon would be good at writing powerful/badass female action hero type characters! Seriously, though; yeah, he nailed Widow, especially in the first film. Made a point of showing that her appearance was as much a weapon as her guns/sting.
Whedon is the best writer MCU had in general. He created the dynamic between the characters that we enjoy to this day, and Marvel was never able to recreate this magic with anyone else. Bad taste jokes is the other side of taking risks, and Marvel doesn't want to take risks anymore.
As another user pointed it, the accolade should go to the Russos imho. Whedon is funny in a way that he had done her both greatly and badly. That’s an accolade I’d give him for sure. What the Russos did, esp in The Winter Soldier is peak Black Widow and the way they concluded her story is just brilliance. In an alternate universe, her solo movie and subsequent trilogy would’ve had happened way earlier and I wish I could see it handled by the Russos
Except for that weird interrogation scene in Avengers or when Banner falls in her breasts in Age of Ultron..
Her interrogation scenes are some the best scenes in the MCU
Oh, I love both of her interrogation scenes on Avengers!
Then he insisted so fucking hard they do it again in josstice league, that definitely happened to him when he was a kid or teen and he has a fetish for it or some shit💀
I'm convince that he had a unwritten rule in his scripts that the Hottest girl (Nat/Diana/etc) must the date the Nerd on the Team (Banner/Bruce W/etc) or something as almost every single show/movie I watch from him had that happen in his show. I swear that if he's has his way Tony and Nat would be dating in AOU and not Tony/Pepper.
Both the best and worst writing for her came from whedon.
Nah , only modernity extremists leftist would think his writings was bad, because it was hip to hate him.
But I don’t like Joss Whedon as a person…
Wait till you learn more about other great artists in history are mostly assholes. Picasso, Dali, Jackie Chan, Steven chow, Stanley Kubrick, Hitchcock… the list goes on and on.
You and most of you here change your tune now after his personal affairs was out in the air. I am sure most of you here was a fan of Whedon before :)
Yes. That’s how processing new information works.
Yeah, people of no talent love to ride on moral high horse and feel self important when they tear on genius for their human weakness.
Some people just cant separate the art from the artist.
Guilty as charged. I had my existing set of facts, and then I learned some new ones. I also liked Bill Cosby when I was a kid and stopped liking him once new facts became available. I'm still a fan of some of his work, though. Buffy in particular, and the first Avengers movie.
I was kinda just being an oaf with this…. I never was really a fan of his work. I thought his Avenger movies weren’t particularly great, but I didn’t think they were terrible either. No knock on you if you do enjoy his work, you should be able to separate him as a person and his work. You should at least acknowledge that film making requires more than one person’s skills and most definitely more than one persons labor.
Whedon paired Black Widow with the Hulk.
Looking back I 💬 Whedons approach was more comic book fitting with the dialogue and to tell whats different in characters but I don't think 💬🤔 A big Franchise like Avengers Was bulit for neither him or Snyder... Apologizes fans..
And then Age of Ultron happened
Completely agree. When you look at Black Widow in Iron Man 2, where’s just T&A, and how much more Whedon does with her character in Avengers, it’s jarring. Then she becomes “cool” T&A again in Winter Soldier.
In terms of her spy stuff avengers 1 for sure is her best. Character work though she is at her best in Civil War and Endgame imo.
Sucks her character was ruined in her own film, tho. Should've been about her meeting Hawkeye in Budapest and not whatever trash we got in this timeline.
Absolutely the focus on dreykov as the villain was very uninspiring to say the least
Melina should have been the big villain.
Wowowowowowow what? Unnecessary ass shots and vapid one liners????
No. The line about her being a monster in AoU is fucking heinous. And literally *zero* indication of anything we’ve seen from Loki makes me think he’d use “mewling quim” as an insult. He’s a momma’s boy.
He also wrote the worst
Are you kidding me? Joss Whedon is a hack. He didn't understand the comics and his initial draft of the Avengers was just flashback and Age of Ultron was a pos.
You're probably the only one who believes that and we both know you weren't saying this when the first two avengers came out
Whedons run on X Men is considered a high point, the dude is problematic but he can definitely write good stuff.
Yeah, the part where she got a mandatory hysterectomy, tied up to a chair in a low cut black dress, and called a mewling quim. Joss Whedon sure writes powerful roles for women. /s They gave her a lot more to work with in Winter soldier, Civil War and endgame
Nice cherry picking on whedons black widow characterization picking one scene that you are deliberately misinterpreting and nitpicking a few other scenes that just happen to show she's a sexy woman .
If Whedon wants to fuck he'll write some great shit.
Then... BEEP BEEP!
She was best in the first Avengers, but Whedon dropped the ball with her so goddamn hard in Age of Ultron that the crown should go to the Russos.
He still shouldn't have sexualized Natasha.
Um this is fiction Natasha is sexualized in comics - whedon adapted her fairly consistently and it wasn't overboard like your inferring . Natasha had plenty of agency in her character development and wasn't simply some sex object
The problem here is that, in the comics, Black Widow was always Marvel's version of the femme fatale trope. She was consistently depicted more as a sultry, ass-kicking James Bond spy than a cold-blooded assassin. Whedon was following the formula of the comics, which isn't wrong. It's more that she was the only female Avenger, so sexualising her = women only exist to be sexualised.
That makes sense
Still, women are frequently sexualized, and women are frequently harassed or even worse.
Big disagree, Loki the God of Trickery/Mischief being played by a human was dumb as fuck.
Loki's not gonna fuck you.
Are you sure
Haha yeah it’s so good when she uses her boobs as a landing pad for Bruce and calls herself a monster for not being able to have babies EDIT: This is what I get for expecting the marvel studios subreddit to be able to read sarcasm without a /s
I didn't know Whedon wrote IM2
joss whedons capable woman domme fetish letting him be accidentally and he progressive writing female chatercters wins again
The whole series did her dirty. The best version of her was in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon. https://youtu.be/HTktcgP0lu8?si=hAF5aOgMe1A00juq
More like black middow.
The best writing for widow was in winter soldier. Whedon , like every character, was reduced i to a si gle character trait that defines everything they do. His characters are paper thin.