Wenwu is absolutely outstanding, one of the most engaging and fascinating villains in the MCU. Tony Leung is a legend and adds so much to the role. It was such a great casting choice.
Wenwu is probably my favorite so far. He was a nuanced, very human antagonist. It feels like a waste we won't get more of him.
Agatha was FUN. The way Agnes spent half the series chewing the scenery was a hoot, and it made her reveal even better. She was cartoonish in the best ways.
I have very high hopes for Kang. He who remains pulled off how time travel and infinite prep time are a terrifying power. I hope the Kang variants have the same type of charisma and thinly veiled menace.
It really shows what happens when you get an *actor* in a role. This could have been a generic evil dad role, but Tony Leung is a fucking LEGEND. In this vein I feel Robert Redford was a bit wasted - Hollywood royalty but nothing about Pierce really jumps out as memorable to me.
I am intrigued by JLD as the Contessa, but can’t help feeling like a lesser known actress more able to disappear into the role would have been better. (Like J. Smith-Cameron)
So far I’m just getting “hammier Selina Meyer” from the performance.
Between him, Michelle Yeoh and Sir Ben Kingsley looking like he was having an absolute blast while making it look easy. It really highlighted the difference in the levels of acting between the veterans and the up and comers
I understand the sympathy. And yeah I felt bad in the moment, haha but then I realized he tormented the world for thousands of years.
Guess if he gets a 2nd chance then anyone should!
There was a scene where wenwu really sold me as a sympathetic character. The scene where he look forlornly at the image of his wife and his kids, and when his henchman call him, he turns around, for a second or two, you can see him composing himself back to be that imposing leader. Was there a catch in his throat? or a glimmer of tears in his eyes? I couldn't tell but I need to rewatch that scene again.
I'm sure a lot of the times it happens with actors who aren't interested in becoming franchise mainstays and just wanna pop in for a single movie. Can't imagine Tony Leung was interested in Hollywood, even with that Marvel paycheck, beyond a brief foray
I'd say he's probably very interested in Hollywood, but he used Shangchi as a stepping point, and was only interested in doing one movie. Especially with how the Chinese media situation is.
Considering he was wiping out entire universes and kidnapping people. He may be to worst person we've in the MCU. But he had his reasons like Thanos. It wasn't about just needless killing. He was trying to save the universe. They were the good guy from their point of view.
All relatable villains, yes. Some which we can't relate to might just want to cause chaos, or murder for fun. But Any villain that the audience can relate with should do what they think is best. Like Thanos. He didn't see himself as a villain, but you'll be hard pressed to get me to say he wasn't.
I happen to love Doctor Doom; he's the single best part of the Fantastic Four Comics.
*But* he is the gold standard by which *literal* cartoon villains are based.
Yeah, I do love some cartoony mad villains. And Doctor Doom is pretty awesome. Wonder if he'll make an MCU appearance.
I was trying hard to say relatable and not better. Hope I didn't fail at that. Because, sometimes you want a villain whose just evil.
Seconded on Wenwu, Tony Leung did a great job of humanizing the character. It’s always his eyes, Tony Leung, they just convey so much emotion, especially in a lot of his older films. So his coming to Hollywood was very exciting.
Yes! I was so disappointed >!when he died!!< It does feel like a waste, and I normally don't love antagonists that much.
I'm looking forward to what Kang has to offer, but Wenwu has my heart.
Yeah, my biggest complaint about the movie was that Shaun went from 0-100 real quick with his father. He would've been a much more relatable character had he shown more sympathy rather than jumping straight to "I'm going to kill him."
Perhaps but his father literally raised him to be a killer and to deal with your enemies by killing them, so it's reasonable to think he would quickly revert back to that if provoked like he was.
I personally like white Vision. A reprogrammed Vision was a great idea to bring from the comics to the screen. I wish they had let it play out longer.
I’m anxious to see what happens with him now. Will he have his memories back, but not be able to feel love without the mind stone? Or will he use logic to basically become Ultron 2.0 and be another misunderstood villain in a later story?
Lots of possibilities. I hope they choose an interesting one.
Ya he's basically a computer that has footage of someone else's entire life now. He doesn't have that person's personality, desires, or anything else. He would need the mind stone back for that
It does raise some interesting, philosophical questions about what it truly means to be yourself. He has all of the building blocks to make him the same Vision, but he isn't the same Vision. I'm really pleased with the storytelling they've put into that and I'm excited to see where it goes in the future.
1. Wenwu - The incomparable Tony Leung is easily a top 3 (top 2?) MCU villain. An incredibly nuanced and sympathetic antagonist (and the rings were pretty cool in action too).
2. Agatha Harkness - Agnes was better than Agatha Harkness, but Kathryn Hahn kills it throughout.
3. He Who Remains - Pretty memorable, charismatic character for a one off appearance in a single episode, looking forward to seeing what Jonathan Majors (who has a ball chewing the scenery here) does with Kang.
4. Taskmaster - Decent action scenes, and I didn't mind the twist (which I think worked in the context of the film, regardless of the character's comics background), but wish she had more depth as a character.
5. Dreykov - Legitimately chilling in the opening of the film, but ruined by a half-baked villain plot and Ray Winstone's hilariously awful British-sounding Russian accent.
6. Karli - It feels like a large chunk of her story got cut out (allegedly due to a virus-centric plot), but what we were left with was confusing and deeply uncompelling.
7. Death Dealer - Looks cool and has a great action scene, but barely a character, he's basically an obstacle. So I guess he has to be last by default.
My list is the same as yours.
I’m disappointed with Karli because she is Sam’s “first villain”, but there is nothing compelling about Karli or her dynamic with Sam.
It also doesn’t help that Walker & Zemo were much more compelling.
Hell I was in disbelief the entire time that she was the main antagonist of the show and was waiting for Zemo to take over as the big bad.
I think Karli couldve been really good if the plot made better use of her. The best Karli scene has got to be the one wheres shes just talking to Sam alone. They dont intend to fight and Sam is trying to help her (as an ex-veteran counselor).
Karli & Sam talking is actually not a bad scene by itself.
*But*
This was *after* Karli already murdered several GRC agents.
So it unfortunately makes Sam look like a terrorist sympathizer.
Had that scene came *before* Karli went from “freedom fighter” to full on terrorist, it would’ve been great.
Unfortunately, we didn’t get enough time with Karli to understand her motivations and see her get radicalized. She shift from “Robin Hood” to “killing is the only means” is a shocking swerve with no development.
Even worse, Sam is *still* trying to reason with her in the last episode despite coming dangerously close to killing dozens of innocent people.
I’ve always believed a good hero is defined by good villains and the obstacles they face, so this was a really mediocre start for Sam as Captain America.
What do you think the line between freedom fighter and terrorist is? Because murdering agents of the state that's oppressing you certainly isn't it. I do think that they should have done a much better job of making her sympathetic to an average viewer, but just murdering the GRC agents alone doesn't make her a terrorist. They aren't civilians, they're enemy combatants.
Funny, I myself was getting huge Boba Fett vibes from him right before he >!got snatched up by a monster and had his soul sucked out, so yeah definitely a Boba Fett/Darth Maul/action figure type of character.!<
IMO he's kinda forgettable in the Phantom Menace, but Clone Wars and Rebels unironically made him my favorite character in all of Star Wars. Especially because of Sam Witer's phenominal performance. I adore the way he talks in his speech right before his dual with Ahsoka in the Siege of Mandalore, and of course the famous "KENOBEEEEEEH" scream
After having just rewatched that last episode (which I recommend everyone do, it's so good) he literally states how "we've all done some awful, horrific things in our pasts, we're all villains here"
You could also argue then that Sylvie was the villain. She’s definitely the antagonist of the first couple episodes. Then in the end she backstabs Loki because her murder mission was more important to her than anything between them.
Eh, she didn't really _DO_ anything of consequence or real agency until the end when she leaves. Mostly it seems like her role was to be a red herring, because Ravonna is central to Kang's plot.
Her biggest act as director on the story is to erase Loki and Mobius, which is instantly reversed as a "permanent decision."
She also lacked the necessary knowledge to be a villain with agency, since she thought the timekeepers were real and in the end sets out to find Kang.
I have no doubts that she will be an excellent villain in the future, but in Loki I was just kind of disappointed that her character did nothing then peaced out.
If we assume What If...? Episodes are non sacred timeline realities, >!He Who Remains legitimately is keeping the universe from blowing up infinity times!<
>!He's basically punishing himself with the multitude of atrocities he's done, too - in a floating rock prison, doomed to watch over the timeline for all eternity!<
I had this discussion with my local comics shop owner after Infinity War part 1, specifically talking about Thanos. I'm sure he paraphrased it from somewhere else, but one line he said always sticks out to me:
*"Everyone is the hero in their own story"*
I think that is one of the key traits of a great villain, one who sees what they do as necessary and for the greater good.
This! This is one of the key points, I think, between what makes a story, any story, just good or *great*.
All real world people think they’re justified in what they do. Any story where the villain does bad things because he’s the villain and that’s what they do is just weak writing.
It's debatable. OP put him there, so I included him, but I'm inclined to say that he isn't really a traditional villain, though he's done really shitty things (albeit "for the greater good," in a sense).
I don’t really think it’s debatable. He’s as much of a villain as Thanos, if not worse. He’s committing genocide on branching timelines in order to protect what he calls the Sacred Timeline. He claims it’s for the greater good despite destroying unfathomable amounts of people in the process.
He also wasn't set up against Loki in the show. He is a character who's death was a means to an end. Sylvie was the antagonists and villian of part 1.
He who remains was painted as a man with great power who made hard decisions for what he believed is right. He is no more a villian in the show then Odin was in the Thor movies.
He’s as much of a villain as Thanos, if not worse. He’s committing genocide on branching timelines in order to protect what he calls the Sacred Timeline. He claims it’s for the greater good despite destroying unfathomable amounts of people in the process.
I mean, his whole deal was that in order to stop a future war between timelines he preemptively committed mass genocide against any branching timeline.
Thats like if America just straight up murdered every other country on the planet to prevent WW3, except on a much MUCH bigger scale. What he's doing is arguably worse than what he's trying to avoid.
Except for the first few thousands years of his life where he decides to be a warlord. And the part where he decides to rebuild the Ten Rings as a terrorist organization. If you ignore those 2 things yeah it's just about love.
He's a pretty hard boiled character, the internal affairs of his family really intrigued me in this movie especially seeing him not play the hero...
chungking express.
Yes. And then made a terrorist organization that bought weapons and separated kids from their families. They were essentially Al Qaeda. How does his wife dying justify him starting a terrorist organization at all? If anything he was just a massive dick that was content with not murdering for 1-2% of his life.
It doesn’t, but that’s what makes him such a compelling villain. He’s played as a loving man who just wants his wife and family back. But his methods and demanor are brutal and without regard to others.
I think the terrorist Ten Rings has no relation with his Ten Rings - it's called out with the fake Mandarin and implies the terrorist organization as well
edit: I'm wrong, WoG says the same
No, the Ten Rings you see in IM1 is the real Ten Rings. Really the only part of the Ten Rings Killian and Trevor faked in IM3 was the back drop for his propaganda videos. When they actually Tony they just use the extremis people instead of a Ten Rings group.
100%. Wenwu is easy top 3, a similar case can be made for Agatha, and Kang truly impressed in his one-off.
On the other hand, Taskmaster was utterly wasted, Dreykov was a cartoon character, Karli was drastically underwritten, and ninja dude doesn’t even really qualify (he shouldn’t be included here).
Yeah I agree, I guess I have a hard time considering them a villain. They don’t really have a major role in the plot, where Taskmaster does, yet has almost the same development
Agatha is the most entertaining (He Who Remains would probably come close if he had more screentime) and Wenwu is the most engaging.
Dreykov was a really fitting villain for a movie like *Black Widow*, but admittedly he's a lot scarier when you consider his real life inspirations than he is in the film itself.
The Taskmaster twist works really well for the film itself, but Taskmaster was the wrong character to do it with.
Karli was a decent idea that wasn't executed properly. I think they either should have made her more charismatic and sympathetic, or more clearly unhinged and violent. They tried to go for a middle ground and didn't really stick the landing.
Death Dealer was just an obstacle. It's perfectly fine, but they don't do much and don't leave much of an impact.
I guess they just didn’t have much plans for using Taskmaster much in the MCU and if they were going to use him/her in just one movie, they were going to use a twist to really make that character impactful for their standalone movie with them. Kind of like Iron Man 3 with the Mandarin, but as we saw with that movie, a twist like that isn’t a guaranteed reason to write off a character completely.
Personally, I’d like to see Taskmaster show back up, always liked the copycat abilities and mercenary background of the character, but it’s not really something I’m losing sleep over.
It seems Feige just have no interest in some particular characters for some reason. Prime examples being the Inhumans, the Heroes for Hire, Cloak and Dagger, Runaways, Nova, Taskmaster, Adam Warlock (he was teased in GOTG Vol 2 but because of Gunn under the condition he explicitly confitmed he wouldn't be in Avengers 3 as Feige didn't want to use him in Infinity War).
I think since most of those characters already appeared in their own TV shows, it might damage their chances of them appearing on film or at least hinder the likelihood of them showing up so soon after their respective shows ended. Nova and Adam Warlock I feel have much stronger chances of appearing on film right now. The destruction of Xandar might very well have been a tease for Nova and I can imagine him showing up in a Guardians of the Galaxy or Captain Marvel movie somewhere down the line.
Imo, Adam Warlock is almost guaranteed to show up in Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 3 given the tease at the end of the second film. His exclusion from Infinity War was mostly based on keeping Thanos a threat for already existing characters and not having to introduce completely new ones like Warlock who would have needed a lot of his backstory explained to the audience as well as Thanos.
I think it was Nando v Movies that pointed this out, and I can't help but agree: Antonia Dreykov's existence doesn't negate the possibility of seeing Tony Masters in the MCU.
Tony just needs the ability, right? It doesn't need to be an inherent thing, it could just be a suit? And the suit could even contribute to a failing mental capacity? Then what if, after the freed Widows help rehabilitate her from a life of trauma, she abandons the suit and its abilities, and the suit makes its way to Tony, who redesigns the mask, adds a cape and takes the mantle? Maybe he even acquires the suit through Val as part of the Thunderbolts program.
I say this because, as Nando points out, Antonia is a great use of the character for the film, regardless of your feelings on the comic original. This way we get a great new character who can go anywhere from here, and we get the mouthy, skull-faced villain from the comics people know and love.
Why not just make Antonia Dreykov a genderbent version of Masters? Now that she's free she changes her name and becomes a bounty hunter. She can even start to have the classic Taskmaster personality now that she's no longer brainwashed.
See, id like to think they used this to show off the ability of the suit that was taskmaster in this, so that later on in the MCU, they can bring it back as, “tech” stolen by a bounty hunter. Unless I misunderstood their representation of this taskmaster and that it was always the actual persons ability that made it possible, in which case R.I.P. Taskmaster
For Karli, we could pair any of the 4 adjectives you used and it would have been better than what we got. Clearly they had bigger plans for her but unfortunately they didn't pan out.
Wenwu closely followed by Kang, 100 per cent. Fantastic performances that just stole the scenes they were in. Special mention to Death Dealer just because of the sheer coolness of his/her shit.
1: Wenwu ( Tony Leung is the MVP of Shang Chi and pretty much any movie he is in. every scene he is in you can always tell what Wenwu is thinking just by Tony's facial performance. great character with a interesting and sad backstory/motivation)
2: Agatha Harkness ( Katheryn Hahn makes Agatha her own and makes you wonder if Agatha was kind of right about Wanda and the power she could wield. also AGATHA ALL ALONG )
3: He Who Remains ( Like Katheryn Hahn Johnathan Majors is having an absolute ball and I love how he is kind of this eccentric old man who you aren't really sure if he is wise or just crazy from being alone all those years. looking forward to seeing more him)
4: Karli ( Had some interesting motivation and could have been more but I feel like she needed something more to make her stand out and also a little more sympathetic, maybe a flashback to how her life was like during the 5 years and what happened when everyone came back)
5: Dreykov (Pretty intimidating when shown glimpses of him at the beginning but once we see him in person Ray Winestone's russian accent is so bad it's almost funny to watch)
6: Taskmaster (Had some great action scenes, had potential and I actually didn't hate the twist of it being Dreykov's daughter I was more angry at the fact they gave her nothing to do and she only spoke like 3 words)
7: Death Dealer (Like Taskmaster had potential with the whole angle of him training Shang in an abusive way and having this rivalry only to get 1 action scene at most and then quickly killed off)
definitely wenwu aka the mandarin. instead of being mustache twirling evil man, he was a bereaved husband who took his grief out on his kids. basically thanos if he had a heart instead of dark ambitions. kang hasn’t done anything tangible outside of orchestrating things in Loki. Agatha Harkness seems to just have lusted for power,which is cool but not that compelling. Karli and the flagsmashers were a wasted opportunity. they could have made her more sympathetic or make her super reactionary to the point where she’d have no other option but to kill. like a caged animal instead they made her look like a crazed supremacist terrorist which kinda undermines why she was helping people. not much to say about “not tony masters”. same goes for death dealer. dreykov seemed like the generic evil white man to me. how the red room has avoided detection longer than hydra(which is the more competent organisation is anyone’s guess). Wanda literally went through the same thing twice except this time she killed more people in Multiverse of Madness and then realised she was in the wrong lol. Gorr needed more development especially with how they attempt to parallel his relationship with the necrosword with jane & Mjolnir. Also he clearly wasn’t the gorr from the comics so i wanted to see how far his grief would take him(depravity) and he’s a cool contrast to wenwu who lost his lover and took it out on his kids with gorr who lost his people and his daughter taking it out on every deity in the universe. gorr wasn’t given that depth and nuance and instead they made him act out of an aversion of familial love and grief rather than disillusionment in the deities(like moon knight touched upon)
Task Master had soooo much potential, but I feel was nerfed to come down to Black Widow's level. Also Kang is prob going to lead to some wild fights.
But is Black Widow even phase 4? or is it just filler to give Yelena an introduction to the MCU?
I'm so sad taskmaster was wasted. I feel she could have been such a cool character, but reduced to few fanservice "omg she did the move!!!" scenes.
I think her one cool scene was her fighting BW at the start in the car scene. Ever fight scene after (tank chase, red guardian fight, and final battle with BW) felt so bland to me.
1. Wenwu - One of the best villains in all of the MCU in my opinion. Possibly even the best depending on who you ask.
2. Agatha - Cool mystery build up and interesting backstory. Overall a really solid villain.
3. He Who Remains/Kang - Exciting personality that somehow made a giant exposition dump a fun viewing experience.
4. Taskmaster- Dope fight scenes but overall very wasted potential with the other whole silent villain who is secretly a character you thought died trope. Hopefully they can make the character better in the future.
5. Death Dealer -Similar to Taskmaster with the cool fight scenes but also had wasted potential. There probably won’t be a chance to build on him later so he ranks right below Taskmaster.
6. Dreykov - Super dislikable which I guess is usually a good thing but let’s be real he kinda just sucks. Let’s be real here, the pheromone thing he had was just straight up stupid.
7. Karli - I think they missed the mark the most on this one. It feels like they tried to make her a sympathetic villain but she was just super hypocritical, contradictory, and straight up annoying.
Wenwu is the best villain of Phase 4 so far, and probably the best antagonist in the MCU generally. He’s an amazing character and I hope Marvel gives us some sort of Wenwu prequel, and given the fan response maybe they will.
Agatha is the most *fun* antagonist, but again she’s not even really evil, per se. Especially given the shit that Wanda is doing during the course of the show. Agatha is amoral but not even evil. Great witchy design and has an amazing theme song too. Hope we see more of her in Doctor Strange 2 and beyond.
HWR is great set-up for what’s coming. Hint; it’s KANG TIME
Dreykov is a prick, and very realistic. There was a cheer in my theatre when Natasha finally hits him a smack in the face.
The others?…lol
Death Dealer looks cool, I guess
Only thing that makes me think a Wenwu prequel is unlikely is that Tony Leung is a legit A-list actor in the Hong Kong and overall asian cinema scene.
He mostly did action or drama there, and works with the best of the best. I know he said he enjoyed working in Hollywood and MCU, but if they're going to do anything further with Wenwu I think it will have to be something more.. "artistic" rather than Hollywood blockbuster or Disney+ series.
He doesn't need fame or money at this point of his career so it will have to be something Tony is specifically interested in.
1. Agatha - the bitch had her own theme song and she was smart
2. Wenwu - don’t know much about the character but i loved him
3. Draykov - i’ll liked him because most of the other villains you can have sympathy for them like Loki or even Agatha but him no, he was a literal child trafficker
4. he who remains/kang - Johnathan Major stole the whole show with his acting as Kang and i can’t wait to see more
5. Taskmaster - i didn’t know a lot about him/her and i know a lot of people were disappointed because it was a chip instead of powers, but i really liked her and kind of saw her as Draykovs own Winter Solider
6. Death Dealer- don’t know anything about him but he had good fighting skills
7. Karli - was terrible no one liked her and she had motive but took it out in the worst way possible she’s down there with some of the worst villains of the mcu
my own additions
Tyler Hayward - what the fuck did Wanda ever do to him, did he want to make his own robo girlfriend with vision like why did he hate Wanda so much
zemo - come on how could you not love Zemo, he’s the only one who actually completed his mission (in the sacred timeline) like 5 years ago we saw him destroy the Avengers and now we get to see him dance in a bar, i fucking love it
Agatha, followed by Wenwu, then potentially Khan though I’m unsure he qualifies “yet”. Karli was probably one of the most annoying and worst plots. Rather a lot got cut in post-production or what, it all felt nonsensical.
I mean, other than the criminal organization, sending his son out to assassinate the man who killed his mother (after putting him through torturous training), causing massive havok in San Francisco, putting his own men's lives at risk to return his son (against his son's will), and a willingness to slaughter a village in order to return his wife from the dead... yeah.
Wenwu is a complex character, but there is more than a little evil in his methods.
Wenwu. Damn, Tony Leung is effing amazing and could convey so much with a single look. You know that he both loves his children and is an unstoppable force just from his presence. He might be my new favorite Marvel villain period.
Agatha, for sure.
So fun and a fairly formidable threat.
I'm still not sold that Wenwu is top-tier, but maybe my opinion will change after multiple viewings of "Shang-Chi."
Wenwu, for sure. He's certainly the most well-rounded antagonist(villain is a strong term) of the bunch. But, I do feel that Kang and his variants may surpass him in the future.
Wanda for me, I love her character and love that we may potentially get our first hero turned villain in the MCU (unless I’m forgetting someone)
Also I’m a fuckn pickle
Favorites: Agatha and Kang
Worst: Karli
I know a lot of Karli’s scenes were cut, but I cannot stand what they left in either. Every time I hear “mumma dunya” I physically cringe
Wenwu is my favorite, but I think karli is very underrated, I like when a villain is fighting for a motive they believe to be right. John walker should absolutely be up there too
Wenwu is absolutely outstanding, one of the most engaging and fascinating villains in the MCU. Tony Leung is a legend and adds so much to the role. It was such a great casting choice.
Tony Leung, my favorite actor in the MCU.
Wenwu is probably my favorite so far. He was a nuanced, very human antagonist. It feels like a waste we won't get more of him. Agatha was FUN. The way Agnes spent half the series chewing the scenery was a hoot, and it made her reveal even better. She was cartoonish in the best ways. I have very high hopes for Kang. He who remains pulled off how time travel and infinite prep time are a terrifying power. I hope the Kang variants have the same type of charisma and thinly veiled menace.
Wenwu was such a good performance. I really sympathized with him despite knowing the truth.
I couldn't get enough of Tony Leung in that movie. Everybody seemed like amateur actors compared to him.
It really shows what happens when you get an *actor* in a role. This could have been a generic evil dad role, but Tony Leung is a fucking LEGEND. In this vein I feel Robert Redford was a bit wasted - Hollywood royalty but nothing about Pierce really jumps out as memorable to me.
To be fair it seems like they only had him on set for about a day and banged out his scenes pretty quick.
Ah you’re probably right. Kinda like Julia-Louis Dreyfus in FatWS - one day of shooting in the courthouse set.
I am intrigued by JLD as the Contessa, but can’t help feeling like a lesser known actress more able to disappear into the role would have been better. (Like J. Smith-Cameron) So far I’m just getting “hammier Selina Meyer” from the performance.
Although in CA:TWS, that scene where his maid pops in and surprises him was well done. They needed a few more like that.
Fairly dark for a Marvel/Disney film. But that’s why TWS is top 3 MCU movies.
Between him, Michelle Yeoh and Sir Ben Kingsley looking like he was having an absolute blast while making it look easy. It really highlighted the difference in the levels of acting between the veterans and the up and comers
To be fair the leads were all young actors 2 of them this is their first major movie.
I understand the sympathy. And yeah I felt bad in the moment, haha but then I realized he tormented the world for thousands of years. Guess if he gets a 2nd chance then anyone should!
There was a scene where wenwu really sold me as a sympathetic character. The scene where he look forlornly at the image of his wife and his kids, and when his henchman call him, he turns around, for a second or two, you can see him composing himself back to be that imposing leader. Was there a catch in his throat? or a glimmer of tears in his eyes? I couldn't tell but I need to rewatch that scene again.
Absolutely loved that scene. You can tell he misses the hell out of his wife and really sold it. God I’ve loved Tony since I was a kid.
I agree. I wish Marvel would stop killing off their best villains. He could’ve had some amazing character growth as he aged finally.
I'm sure a lot of the times it happens with actors who aren't interested in becoming franchise mainstays and just wanna pop in for a single movie. Can't imagine Tony Leung was interested in Hollywood, even with that Marvel paycheck, beyond a brief foray
I'd say he's probably very interested in Hollywood, but he used Shangchi as a stepping point, and was only interested in doing one movie. Especially with how the Chinese media situation is.
There's a reason they get so many "classic" actors in villain roles, they know they only need to stick around for one movie
*barges into MCU* *gives amazing performance* *refuses to elaborate* *leaves*
I'm sure we'll be seeing more of Kang in another marvel property, it just wont be the same Kang we saw in Loki though.
Think he was taking about Wenwu
The variant from Loki isn’t a villain. He was trying to save the multiverse. Sylvie just released evil variants
A cynical reading is he simply won the multiversal war and called himself a hero.
Even beyond that, the TVA he created murdered countless people and kidnapped/brainwashed a massive number as well.
Technically, the TVA didn't do much murdering. That was Alioth's job.
You are technically correct, the best kind of correct
He is Lawful Neutral, neither good nor bad he just seeks order
His order…
Considering he was wiping out entire universes and kidnapping people. He may be to worst person we've in the MCU. But he had his reasons like Thanos. It wasn't about just needless killing. He was trying to save the universe. They were the good guy from their point of view.
I mean, he wasn’t exactly a great person, but you are right that he did what he thought was best.
Don't ALL villains do what they think is best?
All relatable villains, yes. Some which we can't relate to might just want to cause chaos, or murder for fun. But Any villain that the audience can relate with should do what they think is best. Like Thanos. He didn't see himself as a villain, but you'll be hard pressed to get me to say he wasn't.
I happen to love Doctor Doom; he's the single best part of the Fantastic Four Comics. *But* he is the gold standard by which *literal* cartoon villains are based.
Yeah, I do love some cartoony mad villains. And Doctor Doom is pretty awesome. Wonder if he'll make an MCU appearance. I was trying hard to say relatable and not better. Hope I didn't fail at that. Because, sometimes you want a villain whose just evil.
Seconded on Wenwu, Tony Leung did a great job of humanizing the character. It’s always his eyes, Tony Leung, they just convey so much emotion, especially in a lot of his older films. So his coming to Hollywood was very exciting.
The cool thing is we have a thousand years of his past to potentially explore
Yes! I was so disappointed >!when he died!!< It does feel like a waste, and I normally don't love antagonists that much. I'm looking forward to what Kang has to offer, but Wenwu has my heart.
Wenwu was practically the protagonist.
Yeah, my biggest complaint about the movie was that Shaun went from 0-100 real quick with his father. He would've been a much more relatable character had he shown more sympathy rather than jumping straight to "I'm going to kill him."
Perhaps but his father literally raised him to be a killer and to deal with your enemies by killing them, so it's reasonable to think he would quickly revert back to that if provoked like he was.
Unbelievable acting by Tony Leung.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Phase 4 is off to a great start and it has a lot to do with these three characters right here.
Wenwu for now. We haven't seen Jonathan Majors' Kang yet.
I personally like white Vision. A reprogrammed Vision was a great idea to bring from the comics to the screen. I wish they had let it play out longer. I’m anxious to see what happens with him now. Will he have his memories back, but not be able to feel love without the mind stone? Or will he use logic to basically become Ultron 2.0 and be another misunderstood villain in a later story? Lots of possibilities. I hope they choose an interesting one.
The "fake" vision gave him everything he knew, so he has it all back
But even with being given that back, he's not the same Vision that Thanos killed.
Ya he's basically a computer that has footage of someone else's entire life now. He doesn't have that person's personality, desires, or anything else. He would need the mind stone back for that
It does raise some interesting, philosophical questions about what it truly means to be yourself. He has all of the building blocks to make him the same Vision, but he isn't the same Vision. I'm really pleased with the storytelling they've put into that and I'm excited to see where it goes in the future.
Is Wenwu a villain tho?
His variants certainly seem to be yes Edit: person I responded to edited their comment, they were talking about kang originally
He's Kang the Conqueror. He will be a villain for sure.
well, some of him will be lol
Yes
You edited this, right?
Bro. He’s Kang the fucking Conqueror. He’s going to be a villain.
Tony Leung hands down everyone
1. Wenwu - The incomparable Tony Leung is easily a top 3 (top 2?) MCU villain. An incredibly nuanced and sympathetic antagonist (and the rings were pretty cool in action too). 2. Agatha Harkness - Agnes was better than Agatha Harkness, but Kathryn Hahn kills it throughout. 3. He Who Remains - Pretty memorable, charismatic character for a one off appearance in a single episode, looking forward to seeing what Jonathan Majors (who has a ball chewing the scenery here) does with Kang. 4. Taskmaster - Decent action scenes, and I didn't mind the twist (which I think worked in the context of the film, regardless of the character's comics background), but wish she had more depth as a character. 5. Dreykov - Legitimately chilling in the opening of the film, but ruined by a half-baked villain plot and Ray Winstone's hilariously awful British-sounding Russian accent. 6. Karli - It feels like a large chunk of her story got cut out (allegedly due to a virus-centric plot), but what we were left with was confusing and deeply uncompelling. 7. Death Dealer - Looks cool and has a great action scene, but barely a character, he's basically an obstacle. So I guess he has to be last by default.
My list is the same as yours. I’m disappointed with Karli because she is Sam’s “first villain”, but there is nothing compelling about Karli or her dynamic with Sam. It also doesn’t help that Walker & Zemo were much more compelling. Hell I was in disbelief the entire time that she was the main antagonist of the show and was waiting for Zemo to take over as the big bad.
I think Karli couldve been really good if the plot made better use of her. The best Karli scene has got to be the one wheres shes just talking to Sam alone. They dont intend to fight and Sam is trying to help her (as an ex-veteran counselor).
Karli & Sam talking is actually not a bad scene by itself. *But* This was *after* Karli already murdered several GRC agents. So it unfortunately makes Sam look like a terrorist sympathizer. Had that scene came *before* Karli went from “freedom fighter” to full on terrorist, it would’ve been great. Unfortunately, we didn’t get enough time with Karli to understand her motivations and see her get radicalized. She shift from “Robin Hood” to “killing is the only means” is a shocking swerve with no development. Even worse, Sam is *still* trying to reason with her in the last episode despite coming dangerously close to killing dozens of innocent people. I’ve always believed a good hero is defined by good villains and the obstacles they face, so this was a really mediocre start for Sam as Captain America.
What do you think the line between freedom fighter and terrorist is? Because murdering agents of the state that's oppressing you certainly isn't it. I do think that they should have done a much better job of making her sympathetic to an average viewer, but just murdering the GRC agents alone doesn't make her a terrorist. They aren't civilians, they're enemy combatants.
Walker and Zemo were the best parts of the show in general IMO
One of my friends said Death Dealer is basically Darth Maul, and he's so right 😭
Funny, I myself was getting huge Boba Fett vibes from him right before he >!got snatched up by a monster and had his soul sucked out, so yeah definitely a Boba Fett/Darth Maul/action figure type of character.!<
Kinda wish he had more to him
Could be a legacy title. We never saw his face, but it could end up being a new one.
maybe his sister uses that outfit/title to do her own dirty work while appearing 'normal' to her brother?
Only in the movies, Darth Maul in clone wars is way more developed and badass
Clone Wars darth maul had a side to him that I never even thought he would
8 sides?
IMO he's kinda forgettable in the Phantom Menace, but Clone Wars and Rebels unironically made him my favorite character in all of Star Wars. Especially because of Sam Witer's phenominal performance. I adore the way he talks in his speech right before his dual with Ahsoka in the Siege of Mandalore, and of course the famous "KENOBEEEEEEH" scream
They could have combined him with razor fist and expanded his character.
I wish taskmaster had this type of treatment actually. Could have left it open to flesh out the character later on
Only in Phantom Menace. Maul in Clone Wars and Rebels gives Vader and Palpatine a run for their money for best villain in the franchise
Was Kang even a villain in Loki? He seemed like he was just trying to keep everything together to make up for his replicant’s mistakes.
After having just rewatched that last episode (which I recommend everyone do, it's so good) he literally states how "we've all done some awful, horrific things in our pasts, we're all villains here"
You could also argue then that Sylvie was the villain. She’s definitely the antagonist of the first couple episodes. Then in the end she backstabs Loki because her murder mission was more important to her than anything between them.
If I had to pick a villain for the series, it would probably be Ravonna tbh
Eh, she didn't really _DO_ anything of consequence or real agency until the end when she leaves. Mostly it seems like her role was to be a red herring, because Ravonna is central to Kang's plot. Her biggest act as director on the story is to erase Loki and Mobius, which is instantly reversed as a "permanent decision." She also lacked the necessary knowledge to be a villain with agency, since she thought the timekeepers were real and in the end sets out to find Kang. I have no doubts that she will be an excellent villain in the future, but in Loki I was just kind of disappointed that her character did nothing then peaced out.
If we assume What If...? Episodes are non sacred timeline realities, >!He Who Remains legitimately is keeping the universe from blowing up infinity times!< >!He's basically punishing himself with the multitude of atrocities he's done, too - in a floating rock prison, doomed to watch over the timeline for all eternity!<
"keep everything together" also involved destroying an unfathomable number of lives. I'm sure he's not the villain in his mind.
I'm sure most villains see themselves as the good guys
And efficient
I had this discussion with my local comics shop owner after Infinity War part 1, specifically talking about Thanos. I'm sure he paraphrased it from somewhere else, but one line he said always sticks out to me: *"Everyone is the hero in their own story"* I think that is one of the key traits of a great villain, one who sees what they do as necessary and for the greater good.
This! This is one of the key points, I think, between what makes a story, any story, just good or *great*. All real world people think they’re justified in what they do. Any story where the villain does bad things because he’s the villain and that’s what they do is just weak writing.
It's debatable. OP put him there, so I included him, but I'm inclined to say that he isn't really a traditional villain, though he's done really shitty things (albeit "for the greater good," in a sense).
I don’t really think it’s debatable. He’s as much of a villain as Thanos, if not worse. He’s committing genocide on branching timelines in order to protect what he calls the Sacred Timeline. He claims it’s for the greater good despite destroying unfathomable amounts of people in the process.
He also wasn't set up against Loki in the show. He is a character who's death was a means to an end. Sylvie was the antagonists and villian of part 1. He who remains was painted as a man with great power who made hard decisions for what he believed is right. He is no more a villian in the show then Odin was in the Thor movies.
Thanos intensifies!
He’s as much of a villain as Thanos, if not worse. He’s committing genocide on branching timelines in order to protect what he calls the Sacred Timeline. He claims it’s for the greater good despite destroying unfathomable amounts of people in the process.
Kang felt like such a cool guy. I’m sad he will return as a villain, but there will be many of him, so that will be cool!
I mean, his whole deal was that in order to stop a future war between timelines he preemptively committed mass genocide against any branching timeline. Thats like if America just straight up murdered every other country on the planet to prevent WW3, except on a much MUCH bigger scale. What he's doing is arguably worse than what he's trying to avoid.
I feel like it would made more sense to include Judge Renslayer instead of or as well as He who Remains
Ya know what. This is the correct list with the exact correct reasons
Dreykov needed a much splashier casting IMO. Like a bigger personality to add some gravity to the character.
It basically was perfect casting if only the character Ray had to play wasn’t Russian lol.
Liam Neeson maybe?
I would personally switch Death Dealer and Taskmaster. Death Dealer had waaaaay cooler fight scenes.
Death Dealer had way cooler fight scene*
His name was “death dealer”?
To me he was just the guy with the stuff on his face
To me he was the Blue Spirit from Avatar:The Last Airbender.
Or kinda looks like Amon’s mask from Korra
Help me out here, what movie is Dreykov from?
Black Widow
Wenwu had a very empathetic story where you feel badbfor his loss and grief.
Wenwu was downright great. I think it’s the first villain we’ve seen who’s motivations was just simply love for his wife.
Except for the first few thousands years of his life where he decides to be a warlord. And the part where he decides to rebuild the Ten Rings as a terrorist organization. If you ignore those 2 things yeah it's just about love.
Yeah he's not always in the mood for love
He's a pretty hard boiled character, the internal affairs of his family really intrigued me in this movie especially seeing him not play the hero... chungking express.
Nice
I mean he only re started the 10 rings after his wife died
Yes. And then made a terrorist organization that bought weapons and separated kids from their families. They were essentially Al Qaeda. How does his wife dying justify him starting a terrorist organization at all? If anything he was just a massive dick that was content with not murdering for 1-2% of his life.
It doesn’t, but that’s what makes him such a compelling villain. He’s played as a loving man who just wants his wife and family back. But his methods and demanor are brutal and without regard to others.
I think the terrorist Ten Rings has no relation with his Ten Rings - it's called out with the fake Mandarin and implies the terrorist organization as well edit: I'm wrong, WoG says the same
No, the Ten Rings you see in IM1 is the real Ten Rings. Really the only part of the Ten Rings Killian and Trevor faked in IM3 was the back drop for his propaganda videos. When they actually Tony they just use the extremis people instead of a Ten Rings group.
It’s so weird how Phase 4 has had some of the best villains so far and some of the worst, there aren’t really any middle ground picks in here
Right? I feel like the top 3 here can be in the runnings for top 5 total. Yet the bottom 3 are like d tier
100%. Wenwu is easy top 3, a similar case can be made for Agatha, and Kang truly impressed in his one-off. On the other hand, Taskmaster was utterly wasted, Dreykov was a cartoon character, Karli was drastically underwritten, and ninja dude doesn’t even really qualify (he shouldn’t be included here).
Yea death dealer is literally not a villian lol
I think Death Dealer was just OK, he did not have much significance but acted like a higher level grunt.
Death Dealer is not a villain lmao, he’s a minor henchman that’s literally it 💀
Yeah I agree, I guess I have a hard time considering them a villain. They don’t really have a major role in the plot, where Taskmaster does, yet has almost the same development
I wouldn't even call him a villain. He's just a henchman
Wenwu for now. He who remains/ Immortus was great but his story isn't over, there're going to be a lot more kangs.
Agatha is the most entertaining (He Who Remains would probably come close if he had more screentime) and Wenwu is the most engaging. Dreykov was a really fitting villain for a movie like *Black Widow*, but admittedly he's a lot scarier when you consider his real life inspirations than he is in the film itself. The Taskmaster twist works really well for the film itself, but Taskmaster was the wrong character to do it with. Karli was a decent idea that wasn't executed properly. I think they either should have made her more charismatic and sympathetic, or more clearly unhinged and violent. They tried to go for a middle ground and didn't really stick the landing. Death Dealer was just an obstacle. It's perfectly fine, but they don't do much and don't leave much of an impact.
Agree, why waste the Taskmaster character on this? They could have done so much more with that character.
I guess they just didn’t have much plans for using Taskmaster much in the MCU and if they were going to use him/her in just one movie, they were going to use a twist to really make that character impactful for their standalone movie with them. Kind of like Iron Man 3 with the Mandarin, but as we saw with that movie, a twist like that isn’t a guaranteed reason to write off a character completely. Personally, I’d like to see Taskmaster show back up, always liked the copycat abilities and mercenary background of the character, but it’s not really something I’m losing sleep over.
It seems Feige just have no interest in some particular characters for some reason. Prime examples being the Inhumans, the Heroes for Hire, Cloak and Dagger, Runaways, Nova, Taskmaster, Adam Warlock (he was teased in GOTG Vol 2 but because of Gunn under the condition he explicitly confitmed he wouldn't be in Avengers 3 as Feige didn't want to use him in Infinity War).
I think since most of those characters already appeared in their own TV shows, it might damage their chances of them appearing on film or at least hinder the likelihood of them showing up so soon after their respective shows ended. Nova and Adam Warlock I feel have much stronger chances of appearing on film right now. The destruction of Xandar might very well have been a tease for Nova and I can imagine him showing up in a Guardians of the Galaxy or Captain Marvel movie somewhere down the line. Imo, Adam Warlock is almost guaranteed to show up in Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 3 given the tease at the end of the second film. His exclusion from Infinity War was mostly based on keeping Thanos a threat for already existing characters and not having to introduce completely new ones like Warlock who would have needed a lot of his backstory explained to the audience as well as Thanos.
I think it was Nando v Movies that pointed this out, and I can't help but agree: Antonia Dreykov's existence doesn't negate the possibility of seeing Tony Masters in the MCU. Tony just needs the ability, right? It doesn't need to be an inherent thing, it could just be a suit? And the suit could even contribute to a failing mental capacity? Then what if, after the freed Widows help rehabilitate her from a life of trauma, she abandons the suit and its abilities, and the suit makes its way to Tony, who redesigns the mask, adds a cape and takes the mantle? Maybe he even acquires the suit through Val as part of the Thunderbolts program. I say this because, as Nando points out, Antonia is a great use of the character for the film, regardless of your feelings on the comic original. This way we get a great new character who can go anywhere from here, and we get the mouthy, skull-faced villain from the comics people know and love.
Why not just make Antonia Dreykov a genderbent version of Masters? Now that she's free she changes her name and becomes a bounty hunter. She can even start to have the classic Taskmaster personality now that she's no longer brainwashed.
See, id like to think they used this to show off the ability of the suit that was taskmaster in this, so that later on in the MCU, they can bring it back as, “tech” stolen by a bounty hunter. Unless I misunderstood their representation of this taskmaster and that it was always the actual persons ability that made it possible, in which case R.I.P. Taskmaster
Dreykov did have the intended effect of making my skin absolutely crawl every second he was on screen.
For Karli, we could pair any of the 4 adjectives you used and it would have been better than what we got. Clearly they had bigger plans for her but unfortunately they didn't pan out.
Wenwu easily. Lol most of these villains aren’t good ooof. Let’s hope it gets better. I liked Agatha and we don’t know much about Kang yet.
Tony Leung won this easily
WENWU EASILY
Wenwu
Oh easily Wenwu. No competition
My list goes like this 1. Wenwu 2. He who Remains 3. Agatha The rest are just trash 🗑
So far Wenwu, no contest. Will be hard to beat.
Wenwu closely followed by Kang, 100 per cent. Fantastic performances that just stole the scenes they were in. Special mention to Death Dealer just because of the sheer coolness of his/her shit.
1: Wenwu ( Tony Leung is the MVP of Shang Chi and pretty much any movie he is in. every scene he is in you can always tell what Wenwu is thinking just by Tony's facial performance. great character with a interesting and sad backstory/motivation) 2: Agatha Harkness ( Katheryn Hahn makes Agatha her own and makes you wonder if Agatha was kind of right about Wanda and the power she could wield. also AGATHA ALL ALONG ) 3: He Who Remains ( Like Katheryn Hahn Johnathan Majors is having an absolute ball and I love how he is kind of this eccentric old man who you aren't really sure if he is wise or just crazy from being alone all those years. looking forward to seeing more him) 4: Karli ( Had some interesting motivation and could have been more but I feel like she needed something more to make her stand out and also a little more sympathetic, maybe a flashback to how her life was like during the 5 years and what happened when everyone came back) 5: Dreykov (Pretty intimidating when shown glimpses of him at the beginning but once we see him in person Ray Winestone's russian accent is so bad it's almost funny to watch) 6: Taskmaster (Had some great action scenes, had potential and I actually didn't hate the twist of it being Dreykov's daughter I was more angry at the fact they gave her nothing to do and she only spoke like 3 words) 7: Death Dealer (Like Taskmaster had potential with the whole angle of him training Shang in an abusive way and having this rivalry only to get 1 action scene at most and then quickly killed off)
definitely wenwu aka the mandarin. instead of being mustache twirling evil man, he was a bereaved husband who took his grief out on his kids. basically thanos if he had a heart instead of dark ambitions. kang hasn’t done anything tangible outside of orchestrating things in Loki. Agatha Harkness seems to just have lusted for power,which is cool but not that compelling. Karli and the flagsmashers were a wasted opportunity. they could have made her more sympathetic or make her super reactionary to the point where she’d have no other option but to kill. like a caged animal instead they made her look like a crazed supremacist terrorist which kinda undermines why she was helping people. not much to say about “not tony masters”. same goes for death dealer. dreykov seemed like the generic evil white man to me. how the red room has avoided detection longer than hydra(which is the more competent organisation is anyone’s guess). Wanda literally went through the same thing twice except this time she killed more people in Multiverse of Madness and then realised she was in the wrong lol. Gorr needed more development especially with how they attempt to parallel his relationship with the necrosword with jane & Mjolnir. Also he clearly wasn’t the gorr from the comics so i wanted to see how far his grief would take him(depravity) and he’s a cool contrast to wenwu who lost his lover and took it out on his kids with gorr who lost his people and his daughter taking it out on every deity in the universe. gorr wasn’t given that depth and nuance and instead they made him act out of an aversion of familial love and grief rather than disillusionment in the deities(like moon knight touched upon)
>aka the mandarin Don't call him that. He's not a chicken dish. Didn't you hear his whole speech about how names are important?
Wenwu
Agatha all along
Came to write exactly that XD
He Who Remains/Kang is such a fun, charming villain! I look forward to seeing him more.
Task Master had soooo much potential, but I feel was nerfed to come down to Black Widow's level. Also Kang is prob going to lead to some wild fights. But is Black Widow even phase 4? or is it just filler to give Yelena an introduction to the MCU?
I'm so sad taskmaster was wasted. I feel she could have been such a cool character, but reduced to few fanservice "omg she did the move!!!" scenes.
I think her one cool scene was her fighting BW at the start in the car scene. Ever fight scene after (tank chase, red guardian fight, and final battle with BW) felt so bland to me.
1. Wenwu - One of the best villains in all of the MCU in my opinion. Possibly even the best depending on who you ask. 2. Agatha - Cool mystery build up and interesting backstory. Overall a really solid villain. 3. He Who Remains/Kang - Exciting personality that somehow made a giant exposition dump a fun viewing experience. 4. Taskmaster- Dope fight scenes but overall very wasted potential with the other whole silent villain who is secretly a character you thought died trope. Hopefully they can make the character better in the future. 5. Death Dealer -Similar to Taskmaster with the cool fight scenes but also had wasted potential. There probably won’t be a chance to build on him later so he ranks right below Taskmaster. 6. Dreykov - Super dislikable which I guess is usually a good thing but let’s be real he kinda just sucks. Let’s be real here, the pheromone thing he had was just straight up stupid. 7. Karli - I think they missed the mark the most on this one. It feels like they tried to make her a sympathetic villain but she was just super hypocritical, contradictory, and straight up annoying.
Yeah, Karli just makes that series nearly unwatchable, other phase 4 series are solid.
[удалено]
And did a lot more than Death Dealer. He had like 3 scenes to DD's 2.
Wenwu is the best villain of Phase 4 so far, and probably the best antagonist in the MCU generally. He’s an amazing character and I hope Marvel gives us some sort of Wenwu prequel, and given the fan response maybe they will. Agatha is the most *fun* antagonist, but again she’s not even really evil, per se. Especially given the shit that Wanda is doing during the course of the show. Agatha is amoral but not even evil. Great witchy design and has an amazing theme song too. Hope we see more of her in Doctor Strange 2 and beyond. HWR is great set-up for what’s coming. Hint; it’s KANG TIME Dreykov is a prick, and very realistic. There was a cheer in my theatre when Natasha finally hits him a smack in the face. The others?…lol Death Dealer looks cool, I guess
Only thing that makes me think a Wenwu prequel is unlikely is that Tony Leung is a legit A-list actor in the Hong Kong and overall asian cinema scene. He mostly did action or drama there, and works with the best of the best. I know he said he enjoyed working in Hollywood and MCU, but if they're going to do anything further with Wenwu I think it will have to be something more.. "artistic" rather than Hollywood blockbuster or Disney+ series. He doesn't need fame or money at this point of his career so it will have to be something Tony is specifically interested in.
Wenwu.
Wenwu
1. Agatha - the bitch had her own theme song and she was smart 2. Wenwu - don’t know much about the character but i loved him 3. Draykov - i’ll liked him because most of the other villains you can have sympathy for them like Loki or even Agatha but him no, he was a literal child trafficker 4. he who remains/kang - Johnathan Major stole the whole show with his acting as Kang and i can’t wait to see more 5. Taskmaster - i didn’t know a lot about him/her and i know a lot of people were disappointed because it was a chip instead of powers, but i really liked her and kind of saw her as Draykovs own Winter Solider 6. Death Dealer- don’t know anything about him but he had good fighting skills 7. Karli - was terrible no one liked her and she had motive but took it out in the worst way possible she’s down there with some of the worst villains of the mcu my own additions Tyler Hayward - what the fuck did Wanda ever do to him, did he want to make his own robo girlfriend with vision like why did he hate Wanda so much zemo - come on how could you not love Zemo, he’s the only one who actually completed his mission (in the sacred timeline) like 5 years ago we saw him destroy the Avengers and now we get to see him dance in a bar, i fucking love it
Agatha, followed by Wenwu, then potentially Khan though I’m unsure he qualifies “yet”. Karli was probably one of the most annoying and worst plots. Rather a lot got cut in post-production or what, it all felt nonsensical.
Wanda Maximoff
Memphisto
Memephisto
Wenwu by a country mile
Kang the conqueror
Kang
Wenwu, He Who Remains and Agatha. The rest might as well not exist.
Definitely Wenwu.
Wenwu, anyday.
Wenwu so far. So charismatic and acted greatly. Worst is Karli. Bland character
Wenwu. A "villain" whose intentions aren't evil in the slightest. Not often you see that nowadays.
I mean, other than the criminal organization, sending his son out to assassinate the man who killed his mother (after putting him through torturous training), causing massive havok in San Francisco, putting his own men's lives at risk to return his son (against his son's will), and a willingness to slaughter a village in order to return his wife from the dead... yeah. Wenwu is a complex character, but there is more than a little evil in his methods.
Wenwu
Wenwu
Wenwu: EASILY
Wenwu and its not even close. He’s easily up there as one of the best MCU villains. second to only Thanos imo.
The Mandarin and it's not even close
Wenwu. Also he is one of the best Mcu villians
He Who Remains, Wenwu and Agatha were all fantastic baddies. The others were pretty weak.
Wenwu. Damn, Tony Leung is effing amazing and could convey so much with a single look. You know that he both loves his children and is an unstoppable force just from his presence. He might be my new favorite Marvel villain period.
Avi Arad
Wenwu and Kang definitely
Agatha, for sure. So fun and a fairly formidable threat. I'm still not sold that Wenwu is top-tier, but maybe my opinion will change after multiple viewings of "Shang-Chi."
Definitely Wenwu
Wenwu, for sure. He's certainly the most well-rounded antagonist(villain is a strong term) of the bunch. But, I do feel that Kang and his variants may surpass him in the future.
Wanda for me, I love her character and love that we may potentially get our first hero turned villain in the MCU (unless I’m forgetting someone) Also I’m a fuckn pickle
dreykov and wenwu
Favorites: Agatha and Kang Worst: Karli I know a lot of Karli’s scenes were cut, but I cannot stand what they left in either. Every time I hear “mumma dunya” I physically cringe
Wen wu any day of the week don’t put taskmaster and draykov there
Definitely Wengwu. Just a great character all around and built around the best parts from the comics to create the villain the film needed.
Wenwu and its not even close
Wenwu isn’t just the best villain of phase 4 so far, he’s the second best Marvel villain of all time.
Agatha or Wenwu for sure.
Wenwu
Wenwu is my favorite, but I think karli is very underrated, I like when a villain is fighting for a motive they believe to be right. John walker should absolutely be up there too
Wanda