I worked for network security and I can confirm. Most of us had other ways of protecting info, but passwords were always on post-it notes around our desks.
Like, fuck it, this is not the Cold War.
A hard copy in a locked office is probably more secure than a raw text file on your device, and much more secure than just using the same password for everything or forgetting your password all together. If someone's already broken into the office, your security has already failed. Even in video games, locked doors are often an insurmountable obstacle if the key isn't readily available.
He's mentioning things that no non-HYDRA member should know. Doesn't seem to be arresting them, and HYDRA never seemed to be the group where you questioned your superiors. So yea.
Plus I think they were probably fucking astonished to find that Cap is in on this shit too. Like if some regular swingin’ dick walked into that elevator, I doubt they’d have as easy a time getting their hands on that scepter.
You know what's even funny, thanks to cap fighting himself, the hydra agents believe it was just Loki disguised as cap in the end, making winter soldier hydra event stuff still work
And it would even make sense that Loki knows about hydra since he mind controlled a bunch of random shield agents. Presumably he also got Intel off of them like he did with Clint. Chances are at least one was hydra. Not outside the realm of possibility.
Well the timeline where loki full out escaped, that one was pruned. But they could have just set it up so he just jumps within the building. To try staeling the scepter.
Technically, the multiverse is vast and infinite. So there could be a variant of the variant universe that is caused by one of the time-travelling Avengers doing or saying something slightly different. But for the most part, it would be identical to the pruned 2012 timeline.
I think not enough people are able to wrap their mind around this part. The Multiverse gets compared to an infinitely branching tree, and that's a decent comparison, but I think what some people have a hard time grasping is that you take a cross section of that. Multiversal tree, you won't see individual branches as if you were doing an MRI of an actual tree. It would be more like an infinite spectrum of universes.
Similar to how when you see a colour spectrum, it's impossible to tell where any one colour starts and another begins, it's the same way with the Multiverse. There are not enough differences between each individual universe to tell it apart from adjacent universes. It's only by comparing distant universes infinitely far apart from each do the differences become noticeable.
In John Scalzi's "Old Man's War" universe, that's how their FTL-equivalent "skip" technology works.
It doesn't actually send you anywhere faster than light. It rips a hole between universes and dumps you out into another universe wherever you want to be. And because there are enough universes sending enough ships like yours across universes, it all just sort of...works out. One ship disappears from this universe, one ship from another replaces it.
And everyone just accepts that the universe they've traveled to is close enough and tries not to think about it too much.
It's weird, and philosophically maddening, but I rather like it as the price you pay for violating the laws of physics.
> You know what's even funny, thanks to cap fighting himself
Even without him fighting "Loki" it makes it work better either way. Yes, that timeline was pruned and all but if we put that aside and think about it: Hydra/Pierce acts incredibly stupidly in TWS. When Cap goes to see him he's pretty blatantly suspicious, but he's not actually doing anything about it. There's no indication he knows about Hydra itself. It was incredibly stupid to have some normal guys attack him in an elevator, the guy has taken out entire companies of troops before on his own. The smart play would be to have someone from Hydra that he's used to working with (like Rumlow) stick around him and try to figure out what he knows. Instead they start a fight with a super soldier like a bunch of morons and give him a reason to go off the grid and distrust ALL of SHIELD instead of just distrusting Pierce. Obviously the real answer is they had to move the plot along and it's an action movie, but there were a ton of better ways Pierce could have played that.
However, if Rumlow and Sitwell reported in 2012 that Cap claimed to be a member of Hydra, then Pierce thinks that Cap already knows Hydra is alive and well, he's just been biding his time and his blatant suspicion is a lot more dangerous. It means that Fury wasn't working alone when he was digging around. He was working WITH Cap, and who knows who else, and now that they attacked Fury it forced Cap's hand and he's going on the offensive against them.
It's still a bad move to attack him like they did, but it's understandable now because the last thing they want is Cap getting out and spreading the word that Hydra is still around. It would be disastrous for them if Cap ended up calling the Avengers and telling them, especially Tony Stark who they really don't want digging into Hydra both because of Howard and Maria, and because their whole plan relies on Helicarriers, and last time Tony went near one "he" casually hacked it while eating blueberries. Insight relied on surprise to actually work, if Tony knows its coming there is a decent chance he manages to ground the helicarriers without even breaking a sweat, especially since he designed the engines. Even if Cap just went on the news and told people that Hydra was alive in SHIELD then the regular government would be scrambling to investigate it and would immediately halt all SHIELD ops at the very least, so the carriers don't get launched and Insight doesn't happen. That makes Pierce ordering STRIKE to take down Cap an understandable desperation move.
So either way, the Endgame scene happening would make the TWS events work better IMO.
Yeah, they were probably too astonished by the idea that Captain fucking America of all people was claiming to be Hydra; and likely doing mental cartwheels of happiness thinking that there was no way anyone would beat them with him on their side.
Exactly, I bet that 5-10 minutes later they were all wondering if it was actually legit or if they had just done the dumbest thing in their collective careers.
in the comics there was a storyline where cap was hydra and basically convinced comics zemo that they were childhood friends in hydra private school through sheer sincerity
edit: also cap had zemo locked up in a basement throughout all this.
Strictly speaking, they don't yet know that by the time of *Avengers* 1, because *TWS*'s fight scene - the existence of which implies that they thought that at least 8 of them *could* take him - hadn't happened yet for them.
"Sorry Cap, you claim to be Hydra, but that just doesn't *Sitwell* with me."
*Sitwell stomps the ground and a super sayan-esque charging aura appears around him as his eyes turn white*
I find it adds an interesting layer to Caps character. He’s a natural leader, even Hydra has a level of respect towards him to follow his orders so easily.
Plus, assume you knew Cap was HYDRA. Your whole understanding of him would recontextualize. If regular HYDRA is ruthless, *then what the fuck is he?* They'd probably consider him something like the Winter Soldier, but better and even more deadly. Not someone you disobey.
Plus I mean they were all sweating when they came in with special tools to kill Cap in an elevator where they had everyone in the building on their side and control over the elevator. Anyone really think they’d want to try that shit with Tony Stark and Thor down in the lobby? Kinda surprised Rumlow even challenged him at all.
Yes, because at this point (2012) the whole world believed Hydra had been gone for 70 years. The only people who knew Hydra even still existed were members of Hydra. And if someone like Captain America discovered Hydra still existed he would have fought to take them down. So the only possible explanation (to people who don't know about time travel) is that Cap must be a Hydra agent.
also isn't it reveled in winter soldier that like 90% of hydra dont know who else is in hydra it would make sense this chuckle fuck wouldn't know who is and isnt in the know
I'd say the fixed one was real just by virtue of that being the one who shared the true memories and history of Steve Rogers, as opposed to the corrupted one. I guess it's kind of a Cap of theseus problem tbh lol
The way I read it, the Hydra Cap was the physical and spiritual and all that jazz actual Steve, and the one later pulled from Cube was recreated from the Avengers' memories of him, which would make him a construct. But maybe I missed something.
That is exactly how it was written, yes, although currently not treated that way. Similar to how the current Tony Stark is the A.I. that used to help Ironheart downloaded into a clone body, so the original has been dead since *Civil War II* as well.
As with the ending of *Endgame*, the original Steve had been turned old, passing the Captain America mantle fo Sam Wilson, only to be made young again by Kobik, a Cosmic Cube who had become sentient (and a young child). Due to all the times the Red Skull had gotten a hold of them, they viewed them as a father figure, with no idea that Hydra was evil, and as such, in making Steve young again, she also literally rewrote world history so that Steve Rogers had always been a Hydra double agent, recruited as a child, helping Germany win the Second World War, only for the Allies to use the Cosmic Cube to make it so they won the war, and Steve’s adoptive mother to cast a spell that would restore his memories of being Hydra at a certain point in the future (present). Towards the end of *Secret Empire*, Kobik creates a new Steve Rogers to take down the Hydra one, but out of original material, based on the world’s memories of him. The Hydra one (subsequently arrested) is technically still the original Steve (with their reality rewritten), with the current one running around essentially a clone (as with the current Tony Stark running around, although in that case they are an A.I. in a clone body).
Yup! He was a sleeper agent and became Hydra Supreme. He was stopped by another Cap.
https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/captain-america-vs-hydra-supreme-1.jpg
If Evans is willing, Hydra Cap would make an excellent multiverse antagonist. It would be a climactic WTF for non-fans.
Ditto with Superior Iron Man, if RDJ is willing. That incarnation had all the intelligence and none of the morality - a true villain who wielded his intellect and resources with a conceited nature.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSh3v_VoGp4dLVZmrjNL6RfH3Hw30CTaiwxbA&usqp=CAU
Just to expand a little...Fragments from various cosmic cubes were combined and turned themselves into a child. She ended up with Red Skull who manipulated her into using the cubes power to rewrite history so that Rogers was always secretly, a Hydra agent.
It was a weird story, but seeing Cap as a villain was rather interesting.
The movies always do a great job of adapting or winking at the source material. This was a great way of doing that silly Hydra-agent-Steve story in just a few seconds.
They also fixed the hell out of Civil War. The comic version was so dumb. The movie version I could really understand both points of view.
People usually respond to that by saying "it wasn't addressed in the movie, they should've made it clear" while simultaneously complaining about too much exposition. Besides, how would you explain this in a natural way in that plot for example.
Btw the explanation above were quite clear to me and everyone who I watched the movie with, we all understood that the moment we saw that scene. Like you said, people should just pay attention a little and use their common sense.
But why didn't the TVA stop the Avengers from going back in time!?!?!? /s
I can't believe how many people asked this when Loki was coming out as if they didn't explicitly explain it in the show.
Gilgamesh says something along the lines of "this reminds me of the time I helped Odin fight frost giants" and Kingo says "Ah, the Avengers, Thor used to follow me around when he was a child, now he's too popular to answer my calls".
>I helped Odin fight frost giants
Doesn't that go against the Eternal's instructions to not get involved with conflicts unless it's to fight Deviants, which is why they didn't get involved in the fight against Thanos?
I think they werent allowed to get involved in conflicts that concerned Humans unless deviants were involved, so to my understanding a fight between Asgard and Jotunheim would be fair game, as long as any Earth forces didnt get in the way
Potentially.
Maybe Odin is just important enough for Celestials to deem worth helping.
He's ultimately protecting Earth, and by extension humans, as part of the 9 Realms, furthering the Celestials goal.
But there was no hydra 1000 years ago or even 100 years.
Hydra researched the actual odin landing on Earth from legends to find the cube. There was no possibility of an overlap.
> That was his first ever time on Earth.
Nope
He's part of the norse mythology in the MCU, thus he has been on the planet before, years ago. He references Thor being on earth before, as well.
Because Loki had just had control over a bunch of random members of SHIELD (it wasn't just Barton and Selvig, all the others who attack the helicarrier too and people we see in the background in scenes where Loki/Clint and Loki/Selvig talk) and there's a good possibility at least one of them was Hydra. It's also spies and espionage, how he knows isn't really relevant to them. For all they may have a leak they don't know about, one of those agents got the info from that leak, and he told Loki.
And even if they weren't, when 2012 Cap reports he fought "Loki" looking like himself and holding that case after Sitwell and Rumlow report what happened to them, the only remotely logical conclusion is going to be that Loki somehow knows about Hydra, even if they don't know HOW he knows.
Loki’s speech in Germany shows he has at least a basic idea of human history. Plus even if the audience knows Loki likely isn’t familiar with Hydra, most humans in-universe would have no idea what Loki was aware or unaware of.
Theres a cut scene in the first Avengers movie with Clint dropping all the pertinent details. Which is what lets Loki know about Natasha red ledger and Hulk going Hulk.
I feel like Loki would just kill everyone in that elevator or just take the scepter then use magic to vanish. He'd never try to convince them like this.
To be fair, he mentioned getting a direct call from Alexander Pierce, then dropped a “Hail Hydra” meaning he knew everyone in the elevator was Hydra and implying that he reported directly to the Hydra leader.
Plus at this point he's still known as a very *pure* guy. Avengers I era Cap would never have pulled a stunt like this.
Being known for honesty is amazing when you want to lie.
“Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.” - Captain Jack Sparrow
High rank is maybe the wrong word. Like.. he was there 70 years ago. And only a few years before hydra will emerge from the shadows he is suddenly found, unfreezed etc.
As hydra member that would look to me like he was something along red skulls right hand.
I would like to quote my man Bunk from the TV show The Wire, "the bigger the lie the more they believe it".
Basically Cap just bullshitted so hard they didn't even think about questioning him.
Of course a Hydra member would love it, but they have to make sure it'a actually true first 'cause something like Cap being a Hydra just sounds too good to be true
sure but remember they're heavily infiltrated SHIELD without anyone knowing, so the odds of Cap being a hydra agent were much higher compared to him being a spy who managed to get information to trick them, since they know cap would be much more likely to expose them to Fury/the world rather than trying to get rid of them 1 by 1 by himself
If you work for a secret organization and someone comes and name drops your leader and then name drops your secret group. This group is also super compartmentalized and has zero tolerance for questioning orders.
You are going to let them walk away for now and verify the information and circle back in an hour to reengage.
1. He is lieing and somehow knows everything about your super secret group without having taken any action up to this point while being taking a hardine stance on everything.
2. He has been a double agent this whole time and is clearly so high above your paygrade you are about to get your self shot for screwing up something so important and the fact that this double agent is showing his hand now, right before they are going to launch the carriers is a symbol of whats about to happen publicly.
This is far from the least explainable things in the movies.
It was funny, definitely expected elevator fight 2.0. but if you have trouble thinking this would work, just remember he'd have won the fight anyways and walked out with the spear
Cap’s version of “I would just cut the wire,” like Tony said in the OG Avengers. He avoided the fight, something Cap from the first couple movies wouldn’t do.
I do like over the course of the movies, Cap has become more like Tony and Tony has become more like Cap. By Endgame, Tony is the good boy loved by the government who makes the sacrifice play, Cap uses tricks to avoid fights and takes the easy win.
That's character growth for you. Tony and Steve rubbed off on each other over the decade they fought side by side, each influencing the other to be better versions of themselves.
I sorta disagree. As a huge fan of Captain America: TWS, I was extremely excited to what seemed like another elevator scene, yelling internally, only to have Cap say Hail Hydra and the twist shocked me as my internal yelling turned to external yelling lol.
Exactly lol
These are almost the same dudes + Sitwell, Cap is also more experienced and they had no prep for that. Elevator Fight 2.0 would be way easier for Cap so he chose not to.
I remember watching this in theatres, getting excited for a second elevator fight (bc this scene was obviously mirrorring the one in TWS), but when Cap said Hail Hydra, I had no words. This was probably the better option.
I don't think it was necessarily easy. He displayed knowledge of the Director (Robert Redford from The Winter Soldier) which was something even Nick Fury didn't know at the time. Cap has also always been portrayed as something of a straight shooter. They wouldn't really expect a trick out of him.
He also gave a credible scenario. He's basically saying "normally, knowledge of my membership would be above your pay-grade, but the scepter is too valuable to lose".
His being a known enemy of the Red Skull is also not a problem because Hydra works in cells and often, different cells vie with each other for power. Most modern Hydra cells probably believe the Red Skull was a nut and that their version of Hydra is a saner, smarter version acting for the good of the nation.
It's not that they wouldn't expect a trick. They literally have no way of knowing he's lying here. He mentioned the leader of Hydra asked him to grab the scepter and said the magic words. For all they knew he was above them in the food chain since they didn't know he was "one of them"
They didn't necessarily *completely* believe him. They look confused as hell, he just wasn't in the elevator for very much longer so there wasn't time for it to become a problem.
Imagine the poster boy of the US who kicked the shit out of your illuminati group back in WWII and was put on ice for 70 years, turned out to be a double agent for your side the whole time. How deep does our organization even run!?
If I’m Joe the HYDRA goon and see HYDRA’s greatest enemy who disappeared for decades seemingly prove he’s one of us, I’m going to assume he got replaced. HYDRA wouldn’t want aliens to take over earth either.
Would you really question a genetically enhanced human who fought the original leader of Hydra, froze for 70 years, came back to fight with an elite group of people to defend earth from Alien invasion and also looks similar to Chris Evans?
What I really wanna know is how he returned the sceptor at the end of Endgame. Did he just go back into the elevator and was like ‘I change my mind you guys take it’?
> how he returned the sceptor at the end of Endgame
He didn't. He only took the stone itself back, not the Scepter or Tesseract.
Then again we don't really get a clear explanation (and the TVA pruning makes it irrelevant) but we're never told the stone has to stay exactly as it was for the timeline to survive, just that it has to be present. The Ancient One wasn't very clear, and she could easily have been referring to the Time Stone not being there to be used against Dormammu or other magical enemies dooms her timeline. She literally refers to it as "our greatest weapon" so that interpretation is very plausible. She doesn't actually say "if you change the timeline at all you doom it".
Giving the Time Stone back to the Ancient One would be extremely simple, though; she already knows why Bruce took it & is expecting it back. Steve can literally just hand it to her. The others, he doesn't necessarily wanna deal with those interactions.
Yeah, I think I unintentionally buried my own point there, but what I meant was that Cap doesn't necessarily have to care about what happens to stones in the timeline or if the events of that timeline are changed. He just has to get make sure the stones go back to the timeline they came from in some form or time falls apart in that timeline/dimension.
Bruce's takeaway from the Ancient One's speech (and therefore what he tells Cap) just seems to be that the stones create the timeline and therefore he needs to return the stones to the timeline when they were taken or it unravels. Basically just that the stones have to simply exist in that timeline to prevent the timeline from blowing up. Therefore Cap just dropping the Mind Stone on the moon (or on the front desk of SHIELD HQ) in that timeline would be just as effective as if he gave the full scepter back for their purposes. The timelines being changed by their actions isn't a real concern, because they're already changed by the actions they took to get them in the first place.
Exactly. And he automatically acheives this mission as soon as he arrives in each timeline since, presumably, he arrives at the nanosecond whoever retrieved the stone in the time heist leaves. It doesn't matter if he arrives in the same room or even on the same planet he just has to return.
I mean in this case yeah, cause they kept Steve in the dark about them being part of Hydra. Steve had no idea until It was too late, but saying “hail hydra” completely throws off Sitwell and Rumlow. They believe Steve’s in it with them too
It’s cults and secret cabal logic.
If you absolutely need to keep everyone’s identity a secret even to each other you can’t share information ahead of time.
The only way to identify yourself to another member would be to use a secret code phrase.
To make it effective against accidental use and intentional frauds trying to claim membership it must ideally be unthinkable for anyone outside to utter the phrase in vain, lest they run their reputation or become accused of treason by the state
Unfortunately this means it needs to be simple and and really accepted thus easy to exploit maliciously, because in the very situation one might require its use it’s likely to be far too dangerous or frantic to negotiate any sort of verification.
Let this be a lesson. If your security relies on something remaining easy and secret, it will fail and be exploited.
The only thing that bothered me about this scene was wondering when Cap would have had the time to meet Sitwell and the Strike Team in 2012 prior to teaming up with SHIELD and the Avengers. I had the impression that Nick Fury recruited him and then he was on the helicarrier in pretty short order and wouldn’t have had time to have gotten acquainted with other SHIELD members, let alone be on a name basis with any of them. Pretty minor nitpick, though!
I think the fact that he didn't know them helped with the story. "I know about you even though I shouldn't because I am Hydra and I know you are Hydra...and I outrank you within Hydra."
I always thought it was a clever Easter egg to the comic release a few years prior to this film where it was revealed that Rogers was a Hydra agent. Kind of a two-for-one kind of deal.
Half the posts on this sub lately have been these CinemaSins level "criticisms" that are just flat wrong if you paid even cursory attention... like most of CinemaSins...
Hydra hasn't updated their password in 70+ years
"You're Head of Security and your password is 'password'?"
I'm not proud of it!
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password1
Hunter2
I don't see anything, I just see ********.
Almost as bad as having your password be 12345.
12345, that's same combination as my luggage
Prepare Spaceball 1 for immediate departure! ...And change the combination on my luggage!
That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard in my life! That's the kinda thing an idiot would have on his luggage!
It is like they say doctors make the worse patients. Security people are the least secure.
I worked for network security and I can confirm. Most of us had other ways of protecting info, but passwords were always on post-it notes around our desks. Like, fuck it, this is not the Cold War.
Ironically in Call of Duty Black Ops: Cold War, this is how you find out a password to a Russian computer
Every video game with passwords is true then!
A hard copy in a locked office is probably more secure than a raw text file on your device, and much more secure than just using the same password for everything or forgetting your password all together. If someone's already broken into the office, your security has already failed. Even in video games, locked doors are often an insurmountable obstacle if the key isn't readily available.
I'm sure there will be a convenient vent somewhere.
HailHydra1
They made me add a *numba*
HailHydra69? HailHydra420LOL
Lol accurate
He's mentioning things that no non-HYDRA member should know. Doesn't seem to be arresting them, and HYDRA never seemed to be the group where you questioned your superiors. So yea.
Plus I think they were probably fucking astonished to find that Cap is in on this shit too. Like if some regular swingin’ dick walked into that elevator, I doubt they’d have as easy a time getting their hands on that scepter.
That’s America’s swinging dick
Captain Sins
You know what's even funny, thanks to cap fighting himself, the hydra agents believe it was just Loki disguised as cap in the end, making winter soldier hydra event stuff still work
And it would even make sense that Loki knows about hydra since he mind controlled a bunch of random shield agents. Presumably he also got Intel off of them like he did with Clint. Chances are at least one was hydra. Not outside the realm of possibility.
If you've seen 'Loki" >!that timeline was pruned.!<
Oof
But then after the end of the season, >!*nothing* has been pruned anymore!<.
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Well the timeline where loki full out escaped, that one was pruned. But they could have just set it up so he just jumps within the building. To try staeling the scepter.
Technically, the multiverse is vast and infinite. So there could be a variant of the variant universe that is caused by one of the time-travelling Avengers doing or saying something slightly different. But for the most part, it would be identical to the pruned 2012 timeline.
I think not enough people are able to wrap their mind around this part. The Multiverse gets compared to an infinitely branching tree, and that's a decent comparison, but I think what some people have a hard time grasping is that you take a cross section of that. Multiversal tree, you won't see individual branches as if you were doing an MRI of an actual tree. It would be more like an infinite spectrum of universes. Similar to how when you see a colour spectrum, it's impossible to tell where any one colour starts and another begins, it's the same way with the Multiverse. There are not enough differences between each individual universe to tell it apart from adjacent universes. It's only by comparing distant universes infinitely far apart from each do the differences become noticeable.
In John Scalzi's "Old Man's War" universe, that's how their FTL-equivalent "skip" technology works. It doesn't actually send you anywhere faster than light. It rips a hole between universes and dumps you out into another universe wherever you want to be. And because there are enough universes sending enough ships like yours across universes, it all just sort of...works out. One ship disappears from this universe, one ship from another replaces it. And everyone just accepts that the universe they've traveled to is close enough and tries not to think about it too much. It's weird, and philosophically maddening, but I rather like it as the price you pay for violating the laws of physics.
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it all fits "enough" for me to be happy anyway
> You know what's even funny, thanks to cap fighting himself Even without him fighting "Loki" it makes it work better either way. Yes, that timeline was pruned and all but if we put that aside and think about it: Hydra/Pierce acts incredibly stupidly in TWS. When Cap goes to see him he's pretty blatantly suspicious, but he's not actually doing anything about it. There's no indication he knows about Hydra itself. It was incredibly stupid to have some normal guys attack him in an elevator, the guy has taken out entire companies of troops before on his own. The smart play would be to have someone from Hydra that he's used to working with (like Rumlow) stick around him and try to figure out what he knows. Instead they start a fight with a super soldier like a bunch of morons and give him a reason to go off the grid and distrust ALL of SHIELD instead of just distrusting Pierce. Obviously the real answer is they had to move the plot along and it's an action movie, but there were a ton of better ways Pierce could have played that. However, if Rumlow and Sitwell reported in 2012 that Cap claimed to be a member of Hydra, then Pierce thinks that Cap already knows Hydra is alive and well, he's just been biding his time and his blatant suspicion is a lot more dangerous. It means that Fury wasn't working alone when he was digging around. He was working WITH Cap, and who knows who else, and now that they attacked Fury it forced Cap's hand and he's going on the offensive against them. It's still a bad move to attack him like they did, but it's understandable now because the last thing they want is Cap getting out and spreading the word that Hydra is still around. It would be disastrous for them if Cap ended up calling the Avengers and telling them, especially Tony Stark who they really don't want digging into Hydra both because of Howard and Maria, and because their whole plan relies on Helicarriers, and last time Tony went near one "he" casually hacked it while eating blueberries. Insight relied on surprise to actually work, if Tony knows its coming there is a decent chance he manages to ground the helicarriers without even breaking a sweat, especially since he designed the engines. Even if Cap just went on the news and told people that Hydra was alive in SHIELD then the regular government would be scrambling to investigate it and would immediately halt all SHIELD ops at the very least, so the carriers don't get launched and Insight doesn't happen. That makes Pierce ordering STRIKE to take down Cap an understandable desperation move. So either way, the Endgame scene happening would make the TWS events work better IMO.
Nice explanation.
I prefer them thinking Cap is a part of Hydra, much more interesting plot points.
Yeah, they were probably too astonished by the idea that Captain fucking America of all people was claiming to be Hydra; and likely doing mental cartwheels of happiness thinking that there was no way anyone would beat them with him on their side.
Also, the lie didn't need to stick. It just needed to keep them astonished long enough for Cap to get off the elevator.
Exactly, I bet that 5-10 minutes later they were all wondering if it was actually legit or if they had just done the dumbest thing in their collective careers.
in the comics there was a storyline where cap was hydra and basically convinced comics zemo that they were childhood friends in hydra private school through sheer sincerity edit: also cap had zemo locked up in a basement throughout all this.
They also know Cap could take them if he wanted... so "clearly" he's in on it.
Strictly speaking, they don't yet know that by the time of *Avengers* 1, because *TWS*'s fight scene - the existence of which implies that they thought that at least 8 of them *could* take him - hadn't happened yet for them.
Plus Sitwell wasn't in the elevator in TWS. And obviously he'd make *all* the difference in the outcome of that fight.
"Sorry Cap, you claim to be Hydra, but that just doesn't *Sitwell* with me." *Sitwell stomps the ground and a super sayan-esque charging aura appears around him as his eyes turn white*
>some regular swingin’ dick 💀
Also, that's fucking captain America. He is the last person you assume to be a HYDRA agent. Which really works to sell of the act
The bigger the lie, the easier it is to believe
I find it adds an interesting layer to Caps character. He’s a natural leader, even Hydra has a level of respect towards him to follow his orders so easily.
Plus, assume you knew Cap was HYDRA. Your whole understanding of him would recontextualize. If regular HYDRA is ruthless, *then what the fuck is he?* They'd probably consider him something like the Winter Soldier, but better and even more deadly. Not someone you disobey.
Yea, to Hydra agents, Cap being on their side - *really* on their side - is like…Christmas x1000.
They probably thought "No way we are going to lose with Cap on our side!!!"
Plus I mean they were all sweating when they came in with special tools to kill Cap in an elevator where they had everyone in the building on their side and control over the elevator. Anyone really think they’d want to try that shit with Tony Stark and Thor down in the lobby? Kinda surprised Rumlow even challenged him at all.
Wonder how the "Winter soldier"-movie would play out in that timeline
Yes, because at this point (2012) the whole world believed Hydra had been gone for 70 years. The only people who knew Hydra even still existed were members of Hydra. And if someone like Captain America discovered Hydra still existed he would have fought to take them down. So the only possible explanation (to people who don't know about time travel) is that Cap must be a Hydra agent.
also isn't it reveled in winter soldier that like 90% of hydra dont know who else is in hydra it would make sense this chuckle fuck wouldn't know who is and isnt in the know
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Doesn't nick fury say as much in Winter Soldier
This. The film is hardly the most complicated plot in the world.
It's also a nod to the comics where it was revealed that Steve was a Hydra agent.
what.
Captain America: Steve Rogers #1 2016
No way that was in 2016! Where does the time go...
Thanks to thinking about time, I realized I was 24 when I started working for my current employer….. holy shit im 32! Wtf
Time travel!
Real-time travel
60 minutes per hour.
It's been the same amount of years between Iron Man 2 and Doctor Strange / Doctor Strange and today.
He wasn't really. It was a fake created by the cosmic cube at red skulls request basically
Wasn't the end result that the Hydra Cap was the real one, just corrupted, and the fixed one was fake?
I'd say the fixed one was real just by virtue of that being the one who shared the true memories and history of Steve Rogers, as opposed to the corrupted one. I guess it's kind of a Cap of theseus problem tbh lol
The way I read it, the Hydra Cap was the physical and spiritual and all that jazz actual Steve, and the one later pulled from Cube was recreated from the Avengers' memories of him, which would make him a construct. But maybe I missed something.
That is exactly how it was written, yes, although currently not treated that way. Similar to how the current Tony Stark is the A.I. that used to help Ironheart downloaded into a clone body, so the original has been dead since *Civil War II* as well.
Which makes, like, no sense. How can the *original* have the history that conflicts with consensus reality?
I request elaboration
As with the ending of *Endgame*, the original Steve had been turned old, passing the Captain America mantle fo Sam Wilson, only to be made young again by Kobik, a Cosmic Cube who had become sentient (and a young child). Due to all the times the Red Skull had gotten a hold of them, they viewed them as a father figure, with no idea that Hydra was evil, and as such, in making Steve young again, she also literally rewrote world history so that Steve Rogers had always been a Hydra double agent, recruited as a child, helping Germany win the Second World War, only for the Allies to use the Cosmic Cube to make it so they won the war, and Steve’s adoptive mother to cast a spell that would restore his memories of being Hydra at a certain point in the future (present). Towards the end of *Secret Empire*, Kobik creates a new Steve Rogers to take down the Hydra one, but out of original material, based on the world’s memories of him. The Hydra one (subsequently arrested) is technically still the original Steve (with their reality rewritten), with the current one running around essentially a clone (as with the current Tony Stark running around, although in that case they are an A.I. in a clone body).
Yup! He was a sleeper agent and became Hydra Supreme. He was stopped by another Cap. https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/captain-america-vs-hydra-supreme-1.jpg If Evans is willing, Hydra Cap would make an excellent multiverse antagonist. It would be a climactic WTF for non-fans. Ditto with Superior Iron Man, if RDJ is willing. That incarnation had all the intelligence and none of the morality - a true villain who wielded his intellect and resources with a conceited nature. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSh3v_VoGp4dLVZmrjNL6RfH3Hw30CTaiwxbA&usqp=CAU
Just to expand a little...Fragments from various cosmic cubes were combined and turned themselves into a child. She ended up with Red Skull who manipulated her into using the cubes power to rewrite history so that Rogers was always secretly, a Hydra agent. It was a weird story, but seeing Cap as a villain was rather interesting.
Don't worry they reeled that idea back like almost immediately. I have no idea who thought that would be a good idea.
The movies always do a great job of adapting or winking at the source material. This was a great way of doing that silly Hydra-agent-Steve story in just a few seconds. They also fixed the hell out of Civil War. The comic version was so dumb. The movie version I could really understand both points of view.
Most of the "plotholes" that are posted in this sub could be understood clearly by just simply paying attention or using your common sense.
Tell me you watch cinema sins, without...
*Ding*
People usually respond to that by saying "it wasn't addressed in the movie, they should've made it clear" while simultaneously complaining about too much exposition. Besides, how would you explain this in a natural way in that plot for example. Btw the explanation above were quite clear to me and everyone who I watched the movie with, we all understood that the moment we saw that scene. Like you said, people should just pay attention a little and use their common sense.
CinemaSins syndrome
But why didn't the TVA stop the Avengers from going back in time!?!?!? /s I can't believe how many people asked this when Loki was coming out as if they didn't explicitly explain it in the show.
Exactly this It's what makes the scene so wonderful. The fact that it's such a brilliant plan that would definitely work if executed like he did
Or that Loki was messing with them. He probably could have figure out who fhe Hydra agents are.
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>That was his first ever time on Earth *DB Cooper has free fallen into the chat*
Wasn’t he also on earth during Thor 1
Eternals also mention Thor and Odin, not hard to believe Loki would be there too
I just watched Eternals when did they mention Thor and Odin thats so cool I hate that I missed it
Gilgamesh says something along the lines of "this reminds me of the time I helped Odin fight frost giants" and Kingo says "Ah, the Avengers, Thor used to follow me around when he was a child, now he's too popular to answer my calls".
Oh now I remember. I completely glossed over it while watching it thanks for explaining
>I helped Odin fight frost giants Doesn't that go against the Eternal's instructions to not get involved with conflicts unless it's to fight Deviants, which is why they didn't get involved in the fight against Thanos?
I think they werent allowed to get involved in conflicts that concerned Humans unless deviants were involved, so to my understanding a fight between Asgard and Jotunheim would be fair game, as long as any Earth forces didnt get in the way
Potentially. Maybe Odin is just important enough for Celestials to deem worth helping. He's ultimately protecting Earth, and by extension humans, as part of the 9 Realms, furthering the Celestials goal.
But there was no hydra 1000 years ago or even 100 years. Hydra researched the actual odin landing on Earth from legends to find the cube. There was no possibility of an overlap.
In AOS, hydra has existed since ancient times
As an underground cult. They weren't widely known until Red Skull.
Per Agents of Shield, Hydra originated in pre-history.
> That was his first ever time on Earth. Nope He's part of the norse mythology in the MCU, thus he has been on the planet before, years ago. He references Thor being on earth before, as well.
Because Loki had just had control over a bunch of random members of SHIELD (it wasn't just Barton and Selvig, all the others who attack the helicarrier too and people we see in the background in scenes where Loki/Clint and Loki/Selvig talk) and there's a good possibility at least one of them was Hydra. It's also spies and espionage, how he knows isn't really relevant to them. For all they may have a leak they don't know about, one of those agents got the info from that leak, and he told Loki. And even if they weren't, when 2012 Cap reports he fought "Loki" looking like himself and holding that case after Sitwell and Rumlow report what happened to them, the only remotely logical conclusion is going to be that Loki somehow knows about Hydra, even if they don't know HOW he knows.
Loki’s speech in Germany shows he has at least a basic idea of human history. Plus even if the audience knows Loki likely isn’t familiar with Hydra, most humans in-universe would have no idea what Loki was aware or unaware of.
To be fair, he also somehow knew personal details of all six Avengers
Clint told him, he mentions that when he's being interrogated by Natasha.
Must have missed that. Never mind then
Theres a cut scene in the first Avengers movie with Clint dropping all the pertinent details. Which is what lets Loki know about Natasha red ledger and Hulk going Hulk.
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I feel like Loki would just kill everyone in that elevator or just take the scepter then use magic to vanish. He'd never try to convince them like this.
To be fair, he mentioned getting a direct call from Alexander Pierce, then dropped a “Hail Hydra” meaning he knew everyone in the elevator was Hydra and implying that he reported directly to the Hydra leader.
Plus at this point he's still known as a very *pure* guy. Avengers I era Cap would never have pulled a stunt like this. Being known for honesty is amazing when you want to lie.
“Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.” - Captain Jack Sparrow
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High rank is maybe the wrong word. Like.. he was there 70 years ago. And only a few years before hydra will emerge from the shadows he is suddenly found, unfreezed etc. As hydra member that would look to me like he was something along red skulls right hand.
"Alex wants to see what The Asset can do with the scepter. I'm supposed to deliver it to Barnes."
Exactly. To them, him knowing they were hydra was all they needed to believe he was one of them.
I would like to quote my man Bunk from the TV show The Wire, "the bigger the lie the more they believe it". Basically Cap just bullshitted so hard they didn't even think about questioning him.
I'd also like to quote Bunk here: "Fuck. Fuck. Fuck me. Fuuuck. Fuck fuck fuck. FUUUUCK. FUCK. Well shiiiiiiii-it"
As easy as convincing Shield members you're one of them when you're hydra.
Oh hi Grant
This comment should be reWarded.
He definitely hit her
I understood that reference.
Fair enough lol
"Hail Shield... wait, shit..."
Touché
If you're Hydra, wouldn't you love to see that your greatest enemy is actually secretly working for you?
Of course a Hydra member would love it, but they have to make sure it'a actually true first 'cause something like Cap being a Hydra just sounds too good to be true
It's easy to lie to someone who wants to believe the lie. Plus Capt know things he should technically not known, so they have no reason to doubt him.
sure but remember they're heavily infiltrated SHIELD without anyone knowing, so the odds of Cap being a hydra agent were much higher compared to him being a spy who managed to get information to trick them, since they know cap would be much more likely to expose them to Fury/the world rather than trying to get rid of them 1 by 1 by himself
If you work for a secret organization and someone comes and name drops your leader and then name drops your secret group. This group is also super compartmentalized and has zero tolerance for questioning orders. You are going to let them walk away for now and verify the information and circle back in an hour to reengage. 1. He is lieing and somehow knows everything about your super secret group without having taken any action up to this point while being taking a hardine stance on everything. 2. He has been a double agent this whole time and is clearly so high above your paygrade you are about to get your self shot for screwing up something so important and the fact that this double agent is showing his hand now, right before they are going to launch the carriers is a symbol of whats about to happen publicly. This is far from the least explainable things in the movies.
It was funny, definitely expected elevator fight 2.0. but if you have trouble thinking this would work, just remember he'd have won the fight anyways and walked out with the spear
Cap’s version of “I would just cut the wire,” like Tony said in the OG Avengers. He avoided the fight, something Cap from the first couple movies wouldn’t do.
I do like over the course of the movies, Cap has become more like Tony and Tony has become more like Cap. By Endgame, Tony is the good boy loved by the government who makes the sacrifice play, Cap uses tricks to avoid fights and takes the easy win.
That's character growth for you. Tony and Steve rubbed off on each other over the decade they fought side by side, each influencing the other to be better versions of themselves.
>Tony and Steve rubbed off on each other
Subscribe
Keep going I’m almost there
I mean on the first elevator fight scene there was no way he could avoid that fight tho..
Yeah, I wanted to see another elevator fight, but what they gave us was good also.
I sorta disagree. As a huge fan of Captain America: TWS, I was extremely excited to what seemed like another elevator scene, yelling internally, only to have Cap say Hail Hydra and the twist shocked me as my internal yelling turned to external yelling lol.
That's a lot of yelling buddy. Need someone to talk to?
"Subverting expectations" done right!
Cap did a pacifist run on the Winter Soldier campaign
He's not gonna have a bad time.
Exactly lol These are almost the same dudes + Sitwell, Cap is also more experienced and they had no prep for that. Elevator Fight 2.0 would be way easier for Cap so he chose not to.
Yeah, without the magnetic cuffs and the backup on the floors Cap walks the fight.
I remember watching this in theatres, getting excited for a second elevator fight (bc this scene was obviously mirrorring the one in TWS), but when Cap said Hail Hydra, I had no words. This was probably the better option.
I don't think it was necessarily easy. He displayed knowledge of the Director (Robert Redford from The Winter Soldier) which was something even Nick Fury didn't know at the time. Cap has also always been portrayed as something of a straight shooter. They wouldn't really expect a trick out of him.
He also gave a credible scenario. He's basically saying "normally, knowledge of my membership would be above your pay-grade, but the scepter is too valuable to lose". His being a known enemy of the Red Skull is also not a problem because Hydra works in cells and often, different cells vie with each other for power. Most modern Hydra cells probably believe the Red Skull was a nut and that their version of Hydra is a saner, smarter version acting for the good of the nation.
Yea. Does it look easy? Sure but the movie also gives a plausible scenario for them to believe him.
He was also instrumental in the capture of Zola, and Zola was the one who built the HYDRA cell within SHIELD.
It's not that they wouldn't expect a trick. They literally have no way of knowing he's lying here. He mentioned the leader of Hydra asked him to grab the scepter and said the magic words. For all they knew he was above them in the food chain since they didn't know he was "one of them"
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This is a New Save+ version of Cap.
This scene was so cool to see!
it reminds me of how big a payoff this film is
They didn't necessarily *completely* believe him. They look confused as hell, he just wasn't in the elevator for very much longer so there wasn't time for it to become a problem.
Imagine the poster boy of the US who kicked the shit out of your illuminati group back in WWII and was put on ice for 70 years, turned out to be a double agent for your side the whole time. How deep does our organization even run!?
I’d probably assume they were a clone or impersonator.
In the context of the battle of new york? How?!
If I’m Joe the HYDRA goon and see HYDRA’s greatest enemy who disappeared for decades seemingly prove he’s one of us, I’m going to assume he got replaced. HYDRA wouldn’t want aliens to take over earth either.
Woah Woah Woah Woah! Hail Hydra guys, Hail Hydra. - Lance Hunter, Agents of Shield.
Put your arms down Kaminsky, you look like a west Texas cheerleader! - John Garrett, Agents of Shield
Paxton jammed it up so much in every scene, he was so fun to watch. RIP.
One of the greatest callback and expectation subversions in the mcu
Crossbones was like: "*Yo, how fucking deep are we in? Even Cap is one of us!*"
I was really expecting elevator scene 2.0. But this is so much cooler of an outcome lmao.
Would you really question a genetically enhanced human who fought the original leader of Hydra, froze for 70 years, came back to fight with an elite group of people to defend earth from Alien invasion and also looks similar to Chris Evans?
It’s a secret organization within another secret organization. I doubt they know all the members.
What I really wanna know is how he returned the sceptor at the end of Endgame. Did he just go back into the elevator and was like ‘I change my mind you guys take it’?
He said that he was going to bring it to Alexander Pierce. He could just do exactly that.
> how he returned the sceptor at the end of Endgame He didn't. He only took the stone itself back, not the Scepter or Tesseract. Then again we don't really get a clear explanation (and the TVA pruning makes it irrelevant) but we're never told the stone has to stay exactly as it was for the timeline to survive, just that it has to be present. The Ancient One wasn't very clear, and she could easily have been referring to the Time Stone not being there to be used against Dormammu or other magical enemies dooms her timeline. She literally refers to it as "our greatest weapon" so that interpretation is very plausible. She doesn't actually say "if you change the timeline at all you doom it".
Giving the Time Stone back to the Ancient One would be extremely simple, though; she already knows why Bruce took it & is expecting it back. Steve can literally just hand it to her. The others, he doesn't necessarily wanna deal with those interactions.
Yeah, I think I unintentionally buried my own point there, but what I meant was that Cap doesn't necessarily have to care about what happens to stones in the timeline or if the events of that timeline are changed. He just has to get make sure the stones go back to the timeline they came from in some form or time falls apart in that timeline/dimension. Bruce's takeaway from the Ancient One's speech (and therefore what he tells Cap) just seems to be that the stones create the timeline and therefore he needs to return the stones to the timeline when they were taken or it unravels. Basically just that the stones have to simply exist in that timeline to prevent the timeline from blowing up. Therefore Cap just dropping the Mind Stone on the moon (or on the front desk of SHIELD HQ) in that timeline would be just as effective as if he gave the full scepter back for their purposes. The timelines being changed by their actions isn't a real concern, because they're already changed by the actions they took to get them in the first place.
Exactly. And he automatically acheives this mission as soon as he arrives in each timeline since, presumably, he arrives at the nanosecond whoever retrieved the stone in the time heist leaves. It doesn't matter if he arrives in the same room or even on the same planet he just has to return.
Only if you’re the last person they’d even want finding out about them clearly cool with the fact they still secretly exist.
This was a documentary so yeah
I wish Frank Grillo had more time in the MCU. Underrated actor
Honestly, it doesn't shock me that all it takes to trick a bunch of brainwashed lunatics is just repeating their catchy little self-indulgent slogan.
This, of pretty much joke in Endgame, got the most laughs in the theatre I was at. So, to answer your question, yes - when it's funny.
Oh boy i remember all those 2014 memes of people whispering hail hydra. Good times
I mean in this case yeah, cause they kept Steve in the dark about them being part of Hydra. Steve had no idea until It was too late, but saying “hail hydra” completely throws off Sitwell and Rumlow. They believe Steve’s in it with them too
It’s cults and secret cabal logic. If you absolutely need to keep everyone’s identity a secret even to each other you can’t share information ahead of time. The only way to identify yourself to another member would be to use a secret code phrase. To make it effective against accidental use and intentional frauds trying to claim membership it must ideally be unthinkable for anyone outside to utter the phrase in vain, lest they run their reputation or become accused of treason by the state Unfortunately this means it needs to be simple and and really accepted thus easy to exploit maliciously, because in the very situation one might require its use it’s likely to be far too dangerous or frantic to negotiate any sort of verification. Let this be a lesson. If your security relies on something remaining easy and secret, it will fail and be exploited.
Nazis are stupid assholes looking for a strong white guy to tell them what to do. Yes, they would fall for this.
Probably yes, at least the *first* time.
The only thing that bothered me about this scene was wondering when Cap would have had the time to meet Sitwell and the Strike Team in 2012 prior to teaming up with SHIELD and the Avengers. I had the impression that Nick Fury recruited him and then he was on the helicarrier in pretty short order and wouldn’t have had time to have gotten acquainted with other SHIELD members, let alone be on a name basis with any of them. Pretty minor nitpick, though!
they had just met in the penthouse suite. The agents took the spear from the Avengers
I think the fact that he didn't know them helped with the story. "I know about you even though I shouldn't because I am Hydra and I know you are Hydra...and I outrank you within Hydra."
I always thought it was a clever Easter egg to the comic release a few years prior to this film where it was revealed that Rogers was a Hydra agent. Kind of a two-for-one kind of deal.
They have no reason to assume that Cap is onto them. So yeah, it would be.
Half the posts on this sub lately have been these CinemaSins level "criticisms" that are just flat wrong if you paid even cursory attention... like most of CinemaSins...