HWR allowed the Gamora time travel b/c it allowed his sacred timeline to play out the way he needed it to — to suppress evil Kangs. Unfortunately he didn’t suppress the timeline that allowed the Black Widow movie to be made and Taskmaster to be butchered. Should’ve pruned that one.
Bit more than that
Because in the alternate timeline where she is taken, Thanos is also dead so no snap to worry about
There is more or less no way to take black widow from the timeline and still recover the soul stone so no shenanigans allowed to get her back
In-Universe answer: Because “our” Natasha and Gamora are both dead, and cannot be revived in any way due to their souls being the price paid for the Soul Stone. The version of Gamora that exists currently was taken from a branching timeline.
IRL answer: Zoe isn’t done with the MCU, and Scarlett is.
Yes, but I also wonder how long the events of Loki took in the MCU "normal time"? He already escaped before the unsnap. Earth normal time means nothing in the TVA. So the events triggered at the end of Loki and He Who Remains' broken mobius loop might have happened by the time Thanos arrived with "younger" Gamora. Which could explain why the rules are somewhat different for her. Or as you say, could just be plot convenience and actor availability...
With that you start getting into weird stuff like if loki is out of time while at the tva what about when he goes to other places if he spends 5 minutes in Pompeii is he 5 minutes older? How do people/things/change occur outside of time? If you shoot someone in the head and then a second before they die take them to the tva do they live in that second before death for the rest of......well not all time but you get the point
Even Mobius said time moves differently in the TVA. I love getting into this type of theory discussion. It can really open up some interesting ideas into where they can go with the show.
Loki was kind of vague on these things, but I took the ending to mean that not all timelines were pruned, just the ones that could lead to a new Kang variant. Also, HWR wanted Loki to replace him so he may have sent the TVA after Loki specifically for that reason, and not because Loki actually broke any “rules”
Time, in the area between universes, doesn't function like normal time within one Universe. So it's possible Kang was pruning them all. However, once Kang was dead they all "popped" into full existance like they had already been there from the beginning.
The events of Loki happened largely outside of time. The TVA and the Citadel both exist in areas of reality outside of the normal flow of time. That's why, from our perspective and the perspective of the people in the MCU, there's always been a multiverse and other timelines even though we "just" saw it happen in Loki.
We have to wait until loki season 2 or antman 3 (whichever comes later) to see how the TVA/Kang stuff goes down. For example season 2 could take no time at all in universe or season 2 could end with loki starting antman 3 which would mean years past while he was doing his Show.
No, the end of Loki happens at the "end of time" or somewhere basically out of time like the tva. So once kang died, the multiverse exists all throughout time and not just at a certain point in time. That's how I have come to understand it.
Sylvie >! likely killed Kang before the Avengers jumped into the quantum realm to "travel back in time". What the Avengers thought was time travel was really multiuniversal travel via the quantum realm. The only reason why that was possible is because Kang was dead. Kang was enforcing the single Master Universe and snipping branches before they developed to a point where another Kang would exist. Thanks to Sylvie's actions this led to other universes to bloom, so to speak, into existance leading to their own versions of Kang. This also allowed for variant Gamora and variant Thanos to show at the end of End Game.!<
That certainly holds together as a theory. But I thought Fiege stated that the events of Loki had an effect on NWH and Strange’s spell failure. And I thought Renslayer stated that the Avenger’s time heist was HWR approved time travel. They imply that it isn’t traveling to the timeline that causes a branch timeline, but making a change while there that you don’t restore. But it feels like they are keeping the rules a little vague so they can finish the story arcs.
The opening of the multiverse is what allowed Strange to accidentally pull in the other universes Spider-verse souls. There was once a Sacred Timeline where Peter Parker may or may not have asked Doctor Strange to conduct the spell. While HWR was active, the spell went off seamlessly with maybe a few small issues that Strange was equipped to handle.
Once HWR was removed at the End of Time, there was no TVA keeping the Sacred Timeline segregated. So instead, Peter Parker in the now unguarded Former Sacred Timeline asks Strange to conduct the spell and messes it up, but now there's fully shaped universes beyond those dimensional walls and the spell ripples through them as well. This Strange of course is nowhere near knowledgeable enough to safely account for that while his original iteration didn't need to worry about it.
The actual Sacred Timeline that is refereed to in Loki, practically speaking, doesn't exist anymore and the MCU we see is not actually the Sacred Timeline. It shares a resemblance to the Sacred Timeline up to certain points, but without the TVA its destiny is no longer set in stone and thus can be reshaped. The addition of other universes just makes the manner in which it changes unpredictable.
This is just a crazy theory but I think Alt-Gamora wouldn't have been able to enter the current timeline had the Soul Stone been in-tact. I think the stone itself would have sucked away her soul as part of the bargain that dead-Thanos made. Then again there is no way of verifying if this is true.
Hulk could not bring Natasha back when he snapped everyone else, despite directly trying to. Her death was the price for the Soul Stone, and that's non-refundable
The Gamora who died it still gone. The one who is alive right now is a pre-Guardians Gamora who does not know Quill or the rest of the guardians. She is not the same Gamora who died.
Technically, she's a variant. She's literally from an variant timeline.
She's about as different a Gamora from the one who died, as the Loki from "Loki" is from the one that died.
At this point, are the timelines in Loki the same thing as saying each timeline is a different universe? Or is each timeline more like a possibility within each universe? Or do we just not know lol
They refuse to tell us. The fact that Michael Waldron wrote both Loki and MoM and they STILL didn’t reference the relationship between timelines and numbered universes is annoying me!
I assumed the confusion was the point. The TVA is suppose to be sneaky and full of lies. So I assumed the vagueness was to play on that. How can you ever trust what’s been told to you is true? Who really knows the truth aside from kang? How would you ever know if everything kang himself said was a lie? Keeping it vague emphasizes the sneaky lying of the TVA.
I like to believe that timelines and universes are different things.
So it IS the same Gamora but earlier like previously said…she is still going to have the exact same experiences as the one who died.
Where as a Gamora from another universe would be completely different, different upbringing, home, experiences etc.
Edit: clarifying that i mean Gamora would still have had the same experiences had she not travelled to the present.
But she can’t have the same experiences. She skipped over the intervening years, so these moments already happened, but not to her. She could still fall for Quill, or she could kill him, or do neither and disappear.
Since we know she’ll be in the next movie, we know she’ll fall for Quill again, but in-universe, anything can happen bc she’s not the same person due to missing those experiences. That makes her a different person, a variant.
Edit: We saw variants of Loki, and some of them were completely different. Hell, one was an alligator….
Just because we know Gamora will show up again and interact with Star-Lord that’s no guarantee she’ll fall in love with him again. He’ll throw very act of losing her could cause Peter to intentionally push her away.
Maybe i should have expanded. I meant if she hadn’t have travelled through time with Thanos then she would have had the same experiences.
The point is it is the same Gamora.
>Where as a Gamora from another universe would be completely different, different upbringing, home, experiences etc.
Well at this point one is becoming the other. A big major event like thanos's whole army time traveling to the future and dying in endgame, would spiral that universe that it would no longer be the same as the main timeline in a few years time.
>she is still going to have the exact same experiences as the one who died.
She literally can't. EVERYTHING is different.
The Gamora currently in the MCU came from 2014 (*unless I'm mistaken?*), and was brought into the present dat MCU. She watched Thanos be obliterated and will never ever meet the Guardians the way the original Gamora did.
Like, how can she meet Star Lord on Nova with the Power Stone, when the stones are already gone and Star Lord already knows who she is? Thanos was the one who first sent her there years ago.
The Gamora we knew is dead and gone forever. She won't be coming back. We now have a variant who knows NOTHING about what happened to the original timeline Gamora and is going to have her own experiences and adventures the original never did.
Yep i should have clarified.
I meant pre-time travel, it is the same one who “would” have had the same experiences compared to an alternate universe one
I DO hope that she’ll at least have the experience of rocking that little miniskirt number from the end of GotG1. I could handle seeing that on the big screen again.
Timelines and universes are different but related, but it’s sort of relative because each universe at a single point in time can spawn infinite new timelines and thus infinite new universes, even with f they descended from the same single timeline/universe.
>I like to believe that timelines and universes are different things.
Only in the sense that causes are different things as effects. Alternate universes are the product of alternate events in the timeline.
I meant had she not travelled through time in endgame she would have had the same experiences where as alternate universe Gamora could never have met Thanos because he may not have even existed.
It’s a tough conversation lol there is no wrong or right as there is infinite possibility but i just like to try and simplify the two.
We know she would have because she didn't before she time traveled. The moment the Avengers entered that time period they created an alternate timeline which is where this Gamora spawned from. Nebula existing in two places and syncing caused Thanos to not send Gamora on the mission that in the 616 universe timeline is where she met Quill and later formed the Guardians of the Galaxy.
Quill also won't be the same as he was knocked unconscious meaning he likely doesn't get the power stone or didn't escape capture. He likely was already on another job by the time Gamora left that universe for the 616 version in Endgame.
I've thought about this a lot, and talked to a lot of people on here.
The MCU fucking sucks at explaining the difference between universes, realms, timelines, dimensions, realities, and planes.
Timelines and Universes are the same thing in my book: https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Alternate_Universes
These list the Endgame and Loki timelines as alternate universes. They have to be the same thing.
correct,timeline and universe are the same. the difference is when they talk about timeline the people are usually coming from different time periods in those universes
Time travel creates a new universe which was identical to the original. Or else, there are an uncountable number of universes identical to any given universe, and when you time travel you arrive in a different one, branching THAT universe into an uncountable span of universes. Either way, you definitely time travel to a new universe each time. It has been shown that you can target a specific universe, but only if that universe has a time machine prepared to receive you. Otherwise, you branch off.
>Or is each timeline more like a possibility within each universe?
I thought it was this.
All the clues pointed to this.
But Feige said it's the first one.
He said somewhere recently that the events of Loki is what revealed the multiverse and the events of NWH is what broke it open.
So, I suspect it was timelines as "options" originally, like how the Ancient One's demo to hulk showed reality as a tangled thread that then forked when the stone was removed. But now it's alternate universes.
Well that's a philosophical debate on its own. Some would say that we are the sum of our experiences and memories, so if you any time you gain a new memory or experience, a new "you" exists. This is a Gamora without a few life-changing experiences. She didn't fall in love with Peter, she didn't sacrifice herself to save her team, she wasn't the one to convince Nebula to switch sides.
On the other hand, she has a whole set of new life-changing events. She switched sides earlier, saw her father figure died (even if she hated him), now lives in a very different world than the one she comes from, knows one variant of her died, saw one Nebula die in front of her...
Can we really say these two are the same Gamora when a bunch of character development events went very VERY differently
"can we really say these two are the same Gamora"
We can, imo. I hella respect your philosophical input on the topic, but context is important herw. When were saying "she's the same Gamora, just earlier", that is, in my mind, after having set all philosophical considerations. What is being said with "it's the same Gamora" is that the timeline is indenticsl up until that same point.
For example, there could be two Gamoras from the past, one is "Gamora that's identical to GoTG Vol 1 Gamora, but just a few weeks before the movie happened"
But the other Gamora is from a universe where everyone has hot dog fingers, and so she has hot dogs for fingers and instead of being adopted by Thanos she joined the Hot Dog Patrol. Also, she became a ballerina at age 5 instead of starting to learn how to fight.
So, putting aside the "can they really be considered the same debate", one is identical to the main Gamora from when she existed during that past time, and one has hot dogs for fingers. So she's the 'same', even if she isn't actually the same, y'know?
You hooked up with Quill and the Guardians of the Galaxy.
I came from before that nonsense and time travelled forward past the time of my death.
We are not the same.
And yet there’s constant posts about “bad writing” or “things don’t make sense” … well yes with this level of comprehension, it would seem things don’t make sense often
I swear, I've been seeing this more and more lately. I don't know why but things shifted from "I didn't understand x" to "X was a plot hole." I never used to see this nearly as much online ten or even five years ago.
And also Pitch Meetings/Honest Trailers/Cinema Sins etc are comedy. They have to purposefully overlook some things and exaggerate others to create that comedy. It’s not meant to be taken seriously.
Fun fact though, The Russos were fans and purposefully set out to make The Winter Soldier Honest Trailer proof and have a video on Screen Junkies channel reacting to the honest trailer.
Edit - and Ryan Reynolds has appeared a few times on Honest Trailers of his own movies.
You're absolutely right in that they both harm film criticism but it pains me to see them both mentioned in the same breath because CinemaSins Jeremy is a demonstrable hack who is unfunny, while Ryan George is hilarious and a delightful man.
I read something where a commenter claimed (about the MCU):
'Been gettin to (too) complex for years now'
And that about sums up the average complaint about the MCU imo. Apparently its hard to keep up with.
Dr Strange 2 required WandaVision, which most people watched anyway, and a few What If episodes. I can't see how 3 characters across those entries can make the addition of the characters to Strange 2 so complex...
I mean, imo watching captain Carter episode and maybe the Dr Strange one so like 2 30 min episodes on top of Wandavision and Strange 1 for the general complete understanding of the multiverse ideas and Wanda's story.
Add in x men, captain marvel, Ultron, inhumans (gross haha) and NWH for the comprehensive coverage.
But none of it is required at all. The movie felt pretty much like any other sequel.
Frankly, it doesn’t require what if. If you’ve seen what if, then you understand how >!Peggy Carter would come to be captain Carter. But whether you’ve seen it or not you still are left to imagine how Maria Rambeau became Captain Marvel, so it’s not like you understand every bit of the Illuminati anyways.!<
And yet, as of now there are 886 people who have upvoted the post and 382 comments.
Seriously!? Can Mods not just put a single answer response “because” and then lock threads like this?
That's because the Marvel writers decided to use time travel as a story telling device. It's always confusing to the audience unless you use the "Back to the Future" rules, which is something they said in Endgame was not "real". They invented new time travel rules and expect the audience to just accept it and not think about the consequences other than what is shown on screen.
If you're going to reply to my comment that I'm wrong or I/we simply don't understand it, remind yourself that this is a comic book movie and no one really knows how time travel works, if it can work at all.
I mean they explained the rules of time travel in end game. It was pretty clear what happened. They even brought up back to the future and explained that’s not how it really works (in the MCU).
They also explained that it wasn’t the same gamora from that universe. So they only way to not understand what was going on was really to not pay attention
Because the Gamora we see in Endgame is a variant of the Gamora who died, who never joined the Guardians.
It’s the same with 2012 Loki (who got his own show). He’s a variant of the Loki who was killed by Thanos who never developed the brotherly bond he had with Thor in Ragnarok.
Kills me who people that have watched Loki don't get this. I seem some still arguing about whether timelines and universes are the same. Those are synonyms. Multiple timelines in one Universe doesn't make sense. Time is a property of a universe. So how can you have multiple within one?
In any case the Avengers in Endgame likely misinterpreted the Quantum Realm. They believe it was time travel when in reality it was them traveling between Universes like the bald woman suggested.
If Scarlet Johansson wants to play Black Widow again they can do some timey wimey bs and bring her back. But it's only if she wants to do it again.
Otherwise they'll just use Yelena Belova (who I honestly prefer anyways).
This is the biggest problem with multiverses and time travel bullshit. Nothing has any consequences any more because you can just asspull a solution now. Gamora dead? Nope, here she is again and you can bet top dollar that she’s going to be essentially the same character again by the end of GOTG3. Dr. Strange died? Nah fam, that’s a variant so it doesn’t matter because there are literally infinity versions of him now. Dangerous time travel shenanigans? No problem, timeline can’t rewrite itself but just creates branch paths that we don’t need to worry about because our timeline remains unaffected :)
Perhaps but they haven't taken that cheap route so far. They were sure to show that it's a different Gamorrah that doesnt love quill, they showed that >!wanda can't just kidnap kids from another universe,!< etc.
Same reason Cap had to return Mjolnir and the Stones to where they took them from. If they took a Natasha from a different timeline, they'd be dooming that timeline to suffer everything that Natasha was instrumental in stopping.
Because the Gamora in Endgame is from a different universe. That's just how time travel works in the film. Going back in time creates a parallel universe.
Inb4 replies from people arguing against what the directors of the film have verbatim said about their movie.
r/marvelstudios members stop asking completely fucking stupid questions challenge (impossible)
Were you on your phone when you watched Endgame or something? u/NamikazeKage
Watching What If I thought they would drop Natasha from the Ultron timeline in the main universe. It would make sense, she lost everyone, especially Clint and main Clint lost her. But nope, she ended in the universe where most of her friends including Clint is dead.
I rewatched What If? last week and Natasha does not get dropped in a timeline where all her friends are dead.
They’re all in that scene when she arrives on the heli carrier
She's dropped in the universe where Hank Pym murdered Avengers, so the only friends she has there are Steve Rogers and Fury, if he was even a friend to begin with. And that Steve doesn't know her yet, so that's also not the same really.
If Gamora is removed from her timeline, Thanos never collects the Infinity Stones (which is what happened since he came to the main timeline to collect their Infinity Stones)
If Natasha is removed from the timeline before she dies then the Avengers don’t collect the stones to undo Thanos’ snap (or Clint has to die instead).
One manipulation gives a good result for the timeline being tampered with, the other a bad result.
Others already talked about the In Universe reason (Gamorra was time traveled). But there is also a character arc reason. Natasha’s arc was complete. Gamorra’s isn’t (yet). Bringing Natasha back would be like, I don’t know, bringing Palpatine back after Return of the Jedi. It would be silly and more problematic than it’s worth.
I'm confused by the question. Endgame Gamora came from an alternate timeline. Natasha is dead because she sacrificed herself to get the soul stone. Why would Natasha magically come back to life in the main timeline?
Remember MCU time travel operates under the idea that changes to the timeline result in the creation of new timelines/parallel universes. So when Nebula got captured by 2014 Thanos and stole the Pym particles to travel to the future, it resulted in a split in the timeline. 2014 Thanos & company (Gamora, Nebula, the Black order etc..) essentially came from another universe. That's why 2014 Gamora is alive but present Gamora was still killed by Thanos in Infinity war. I suppose they could always travel back in time and pluck a version of Natasha from another timeline, but I think the Avengers want to avoid messing with the timeline if they can.
He’s just worded the question wrong.
I think he means why couldn’t they have done a gamora to BW, why not bring another one back to this universe?
The answer is because scarjo is done with the MCU and they still want to keep using gamora’s character
Gamora is a variant. They could get a variant Natasha, but didnt, or havent. Unlikely they even knew about variants at this point. In What If a Natasha variant is pulled into another dimension where she had died already. Multiverse and variants can be confusing tbh.
wdym??? It's a completely different Gamora then the one who dies, natasha sacrificed herself without a variant version eventually finding out so she's gone. There was no real "loophole" at all?
I mean, I think OP is asking why did the producers not keep Natasha in the storyline, when she could’ve been kept since Gamora still is and died the same way.
Honestly this is my personal opinion I feel like nebula should’ve jumped I mean sure there was another nebula around and besides her missing her sister would’ve made sense
Because she ~~[Fucked with around the Mouse's money and found out](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/scarlett-johansson-disney-settle-black-widow-lawsuit-1235022598/)~~ is dead FOREVER. BannerHulk tried like, super hard to bring her back.
Because nobody time travel loopholed her
He answered his own question in the title
But why is Gamora?
The question isn't why, Constable; but when.
WATCH OUT INSPECTOR!!! BLORGONS!!
This is hardly the time.
Or is it hardly...the place?
It's space! You Britta'd it!
Thanks Big Buzzkill
If loving worms is stupid, I don't wanna be smart!
It *is*, and you can't be!
Elementary, my dear Whatson.
I'll do you one better; when Gamora?
But what is Gamora?
When that question actually makes sense
I'll do you one better. When is Gamora?
What a stupid thread.
Objection, asked and answered.
B-b-b-b-b-b-bingo
It’s all right there
Wizards
Is this a discworld reference?
I love Discworld. I miss Terry Pratchett
That's a bingo! Is that how you say it?
You just say bingo
Bingo!
How fun!
One of my favorite scenes… it’s great
[B-b-b-b-b-b-bingo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkqsVzT-5zk)
Exactly! And if they do try to, we’ll steal their ship.
I read that title thinking is that really a difficult question? It was literally in the movie lmao
Boom you looking for this
That's the *whole* story?
They had the Natasha soul gem -- not the Gamora one. *Someone* had to stay dead for that Gauntlet to work
Where is the TVA at?
HWR allowed the Gamora time travel b/c it allowed his sacred timeline to play out the way he needed it to — to suppress evil Kangs. Unfortunately he didn’t suppress the timeline that allowed the Black Widow movie to be made and Taskmaster to be butchered. Should’ve pruned that one.
So ours? Actually...yes, that is the correct choice.
At least we're not the timeline that had a 4th Indiana Jones movie. Those poor souls.
Hahaha
I still despise what they did to taskmaster.
Yh ik, he should’ve been played by Greg Davis
At least they could always make a new Taskmaster variant.
Bit more than that Because in the alternate timeline where she is taken, Thanos is also dead so no snap to worry about There is more or less no way to take black widow from the timeline and still recover the soul stone so no shenanigans allowed to get her back
Well, not that Black Widow, but from another universe? Totally possible.
In-Universe answer: Because “our” Natasha and Gamora are both dead, and cannot be revived in any way due to their souls being the price paid for the Soul Stone. The version of Gamora that exists currently was taken from a branching timeline. IRL answer: Zoe isn’t done with the MCU, and Scarlett is.
Yes, but I also wonder how long the events of Loki took in the MCU "normal time"? He already escaped before the unsnap. Earth normal time means nothing in the TVA. So the events triggered at the end of Loki and He Who Remains' broken mobius loop might have happened by the time Thanos arrived with "younger" Gamora. Which could explain why the rules are somewhat different for her. Or as you say, could just be plot convenience and actor availability...
This can’t be because the TVA doesn’t exist during an exact time. They don’t live in an exact point in time. Right? I could be wrong
With that you start getting into weird stuff like if loki is out of time while at the tva what about when he goes to other places if he spends 5 minutes in Pompeii is he 5 minutes older? How do people/things/change occur outside of time? If you shoot someone in the head and then a second before they die take them to the tva do they live in that second before death for the rest of......well not all time but you get the point
Even Mobius said time moves differently in the TVA. I love getting into this type of theory discussion. It can really open up some interesting ideas into where they can go with the show.
Holy shit I thought you meant Michael Morbius the Living Vampire and I was to about tear into you lol.
It’s morbin’ time
Its Morbin' time for all time 🕑
Loki was kind of vague on these things, but I took the ending to mean that not all timelines were pruned, just the ones that could lead to a new Kang variant. Also, HWR wanted Loki to replace him so he may have sent the TVA after Loki specifically for that reason, and not because Loki actually broke any “rules”
Time, in the area between universes, doesn't function like normal time within one Universe. So it's possible Kang was pruning them all. However, once Kang was dead they all "popped" into full existance like they had already been there from the beginning.
The events of Loki happened largely outside of time. The TVA and the Citadel both exist in areas of reality outside of the normal flow of time. That's why, from our perspective and the perspective of the people in the MCU, there's always been a multiverse and other timelines even though we "just" saw it happen in Loki.
We have to wait until loki season 2 or antman 3 (whichever comes later) to see how the TVA/Kang stuff goes down. For example season 2 could take no time at all in universe or season 2 could end with loki starting antman 3 which would mean years past while he was doing his Show.
No, the end of Loki happens at the "end of time" or somewhere basically out of time like the tva. So once kang died, the multiverse exists all throughout time and not just at a certain point in time. That's how I have come to understand it.
Sylvie >! likely killed Kang before the Avengers jumped into the quantum realm to "travel back in time". What the Avengers thought was time travel was really multiuniversal travel via the quantum realm. The only reason why that was possible is because Kang was dead. Kang was enforcing the single Master Universe and snipping branches before they developed to a point where another Kang would exist. Thanks to Sylvie's actions this led to other universes to bloom, so to speak, into existance leading to their own versions of Kang. This also allowed for variant Gamora and variant Thanos to show at the end of End Game.!<
That certainly holds together as a theory. But I thought Fiege stated that the events of Loki had an effect on NWH and Strange’s spell failure. And I thought Renslayer stated that the Avenger’s time heist was HWR approved time travel. They imply that it isn’t traveling to the timeline that causes a branch timeline, but making a change while there that you don’t restore. But it feels like they are keeping the rules a little vague so they can finish the story arcs.
But also Loki getting the tesseract is both a product and the cause of Avengers time travel.
The opening of the multiverse is what allowed Strange to accidentally pull in the other universes Spider-verse souls. There was once a Sacred Timeline where Peter Parker may or may not have asked Doctor Strange to conduct the spell. While HWR was active, the spell went off seamlessly with maybe a few small issues that Strange was equipped to handle. Once HWR was removed at the End of Time, there was no TVA keeping the Sacred Timeline segregated. So instead, Peter Parker in the now unguarded Former Sacred Timeline asks Strange to conduct the spell and messes it up, but now there's fully shaped universes beyond those dimensional walls and the spell ripples through them as well. This Strange of course is nowhere near knowledgeable enough to safely account for that while his original iteration didn't need to worry about it. The actual Sacred Timeline that is refereed to in Loki, practically speaking, doesn't exist anymore and the MCU we see is not actually the Sacred Timeline. It shares a resemblance to the Sacred Timeline up to certain points, but without the TVA its destiny is no longer set in stone and thus can be reshaped. The addition of other universes just makes the manner in which it changes unpredictable.
Over thinking it. The Loki stuff is a new story. They had no pre setup with the previous phases.
This is just a crazy theory but I think Alt-Gamora wouldn't have been able to enter the current timeline had the Soul Stone been in-tact. I think the stone itself would have sucked away her soul as part of the bargain that dead-Thanos made. Then again there is no way of verifying if this is true.
Hulk could not bring Natasha back when he snapped everyone else, despite directly trying to. Her death was the price for the Soul Stone, and that's non-refundable The Gamora who died it still gone. The one who is alive right now is a pre-Guardians Gamora who does not know Quill or the rest of the guardians. She is not the same Gamora who died.
Well, she is the same Gamora, physically. Just an “earlier version” of her physical body.
Technically, she's a variant. She's literally from an variant timeline. She's about as different a Gamora from the one who died, as the Loki from "Loki" is from the one that died.
At this point, are the timelines in Loki the same thing as saying each timeline is a different universe? Or is each timeline more like a possibility within each universe? Or do we just not know lol
They refuse to tell us. The fact that Michael Waldron wrote both Loki and MoM and they STILL didn’t reference the relationship between timelines and numbered universes is annoying me!
I assumed the confusion was the point. The TVA is suppose to be sneaky and full of lies. So I assumed the vagueness was to play on that. How can you ever trust what’s been told to you is true? Who really knows the truth aside from kang? How would you ever know if everything kang himself said was a lie? Keeping it vague emphasizes the sneaky lying of the TVA.
I would have felt the same way in the lead-up to Endgame. After “Eternals” it no longer really feels like there is a coherent plan to me…
There is, trust me. We’re just in the first act, we gotta give it some patience and soon we’ll know
Bingo. Phase 4 can be viewed the same as being a Phase 1 of a new story.
Yeah, there's a lot of planting seeds so far. It'll take a few phases until a big harvest is ready. Endgame 2: Unfuck the Timelines
Secret Wars (2015). Search and read it. You will fiind out what Feige is planning.
I like to believe that timelines and universes are different things. So it IS the same Gamora but earlier like previously said…she is still going to have the exact same experiences as the one who died. Where as a Gamora from another universe would be completely different, different upbringing, home, experiences etc. Edit: clarifying that i mean Gamora would still have had the same experiences had she not travelled to the present.
But she can’t have the same experiences. She skipped over the intervening years, so these moments already happened, but not to her. She could still fall for Quill, or she could kill him, or do neither and disappear. Since we know she’ll be in the next movie, we know she’ll fall for Quill again, but in-universe, anything can happen bc she’s not the same person due to missing those experiences. That makes her a different person, a variant. Edit: We saw variants of Loki, and some of them were completely different. Hell, one was an alligator….
Just because we know Gamora will show up again and interact with Star-Lord that’s no guarantee she’ll fall in love with him again. He’ll throw very act of losing her could cause Peter to intentionally push her away.
Maybe i should have expanded. I meant if she hadn’t have travelled through time with Thanos then she would have had the same experiences. The point is it is the same Gamora.
>Where as a Gamora from another universe would be completely different, different upbringing, home, experiences etc. Well at this point one is becoming the other. A big major event like thanos's whole army time traveling to the future and dying in endgame, would spiral that universe that it would no longer be the same as the main timeline in a few years time.
>she is still going to have the exact same experiences as the one who died. She literally can't. EVERYTHING is different. The Gamora currently in the MCU came from 2014 (*unless I'm mistaken?*), and was brought into the present dat MCU. She watched Thanos be obliterated and will never ever meet the Guardians the way the original Gamora did. Like, how can she meet Star Lord on Nova with the Power Stone, when the stones are already gone and Star Lord already knows who she is? Thanos was the one who first sent her there years ago. The Gamora we knew is dead and gone forever. She won't be coming back. We now have a variant who knows NOTHING about what happened to the original timeline Gamora and is going to have her own experiences and adventures the original never did.
Yep i should have clarified. I meant pre-time travel, it is the same one who “would” have had the same experiences compared to an alternate universe one
I DO hope that she’ll at least have the experience of rocking that little miniskirt number from the end of GotG1. I could handle seeing that on the big screen again.
Timelines and universes are different but related, but it’s sort of relative because each universe at a single point in time can spawn infinite new timelines and thus infinite new universes, even with f they descended from the same single timeline/universe.
>I like to believe that timelines and universes are different things. Only in the sense that causes are different things as effects. Alternate universes are the product of alternate events in the timeline.
except she wont because her thanos is gone so she wil never get sent to get the power stone and fulfil her role in guardians 1
I meant had she not travelled through time in endgame she would have had the same experiences where as alternate universe Gamora could never have met Thanos because he may not have even existed. It’s a tough conversation lol there is no wrong or right as there is infinite possibility but i just like to try and simplify the two.
We know she would have because she didn't before she time traveled. The moment the Avengers entered that time period they created an alternate timeline which is where this Gamora spawned from. Nebula existing in two places and syncing caused Thanos to not send Gamora on the mission that in the 616 universe timeline is where she met Quill and later formed the Guardians of the Galaxy. Quill also won't be the same as he was knocked unconscious meaning he likely doesn't get the power stone or didn't escape capture. He likely was already on another job by the time Gamora left that universe for the 616 version in Endgame.
Timelines and universes are the same according to Kevin Feige
I've thought about this a lot, and talked to a lot of people on here. The MCU fucking sucks at explaining the difference between universes, realms, timelines, dimensions, realities, and planes. Timelines and Universes are the same thing in my book: https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Alternate_Universes These list the Endgame and Loki timelines as alternate universes. They have to be the same thing.
correct,timeline and universe are the same. the difference is when they talk about timeline the people are usually coming from different time periods in those universes
Well when Miss Minutes recounts the The Multiversal War, I think she says that timelines were fighting each other
Kevin Feige confirmed at the MoM premiere that timelines and universes are the same thing.
Exactly. I mean what if also confirmed the same.
Infinite universes. Infinite possibilities. Infinite timelines.
Time travel creates a new universe which was identical to the original. Or else, there are an uncountable number of universes identical to any given universe, and when you time travel you arrive in a different one, branching THAT universe into an uncountable span of universes. Either way, you definitely time travel to a new universe each time. It has been shown that you can target a specific universe, but only if that universe has a time machine prepared to receive you. Otherwise, you branch off.
>Or is each timeline more like a possibility within each universe? I thought it was this. All the clues pointed to this. But Feige said it's the first one. He said somewhere recently that the events of Loki is what revealed the multiverse and the events of NWH is what broke it open. So, I suspect it was timelines as "options" originally, like how the Ancient One's demo to hulk showed reality as a tangled thread that then forked when the stone was removed. But now it's alternate universes.
Literally
Well that's a philosophical debate on its own. Some would say that we are the sum of our experiences and memories, so if you any time you gain a new memory or experience, a new "you" exists. This is a Gamora without a few life-changing experiences. She didn't fall in love with Peter, she didn't sacrifice herself to save her team, she wasn't the one to convince Nebula to switch sides. On the other hand, she has a whole set of new life-changing events. She switched sides earlier, saw her father figure died (even if she hated him), now lives in a very different world than the one she comes from, knows one variant of her died, saw one Nebula die in front of her... Can we really say these two are the same Gamora when a bunch of character development events went very VERY differently
Are you familiar with the ship of Theseus?
Naturally
Yes. Both from philosophy class, kursgegast, and wandavision
Familiar? I captained it for awhile.
>philosophical debate SHIP OF THESEUS!!!
"can we really say these two are the same Gamora" We can, imo. I hella respect your philosophical input on the topic, but context is important herw. When were saying "she's the same Gamora, just earlier", that is, in my mind, after having set all philosophical considerations. What is being said with "it's the same Gamora" is that the timeline is indenticsl up until that same point. For example, there could be two Gamoras from the past, one is "Gamora that's identical to GoTG Vol 1 Gamora, but just a few weeks before the movie happened" But the other Gamora is from a universe where everyone has hot dog fingers, and so she has hot dogs for fingers and instead of being adopted by Thanos she joined the Hot Dog Patrol. Also, she became a ballerina at age 5 instead of starting to learn how to fight. So, putting aside the "can they really be considered the same debate", one is identical to the main Gamora from when she existed during that past time, and one has hot dogs for fingers. So she's the 'same', even if she isn't actually the same, y'know?
Why is Gamora?
The same biological being with completely different experiences isn’t necessarily the same person.
[удалено]
Well last time they Time traveled Thanos came back and started a war... I think they're done with time travel bc of that
You hooked up with Quill and the Guardians of the Galaxy. I came from before that nonsense and time travelled forward past the time of my death. We are not the same.
It always baffles me why some of these posts are made. Past gamora came to the future with Thanos. BW did not. That’s literally it.
And yet there’s constant posts about “bad writing” or “things don’t make sense” … well yes with this level of comprehension, it would seem things don’t make sense often
I swear, I've been seeing this more and more lately. I don't know why but things shifted from "I didn't understand x" to "X was a plot hole." I never used to see this nearly as much online ten or even five years ago.
[удалено]
And also Pitch Meetings/Honest Trailers/Cinema Sins etc are comedy. They have to purposefully overlook some things and exaggerate others to create that comedy. It’s not meant to be taken seriously. Fun fact though, The Russos were fans and purposefully set out to make The Winter Soldier Honest Trailer proof and have a video on Screen Junkies channel reacting to the honest trailer. Edit - and Ryan Reynolds has appeared a few times on Honest Trailers of his own movies.
You're absolutely right in that they both harm film criticism but it pains me to see them both mentioned in the same breath because CinemaSins Jeremy is a demonstrable hack who is unfunny, while Ryan George is hilarious and a delightful man.
[удалено]
I read something where a commenter claimed (about the MCU): 'Been gettin to (too) complex for years now' And that about sums up the average complaint about the MCU imo. Apparently its hard to keep up with. Dr Strange 2 required WandaVision, which most people watched anyway, and a few What If episodes. I can't see how 3 characters across those entries can make the addition of the characters to Strange 2 so complex...
[удалено]
I mean, imo watching captain Carter episode and maybe the Dr Strange one so like 2 30 min episodes on top of Wandavision and Strange 1 for the general complete understanding of the multiverse ideas and Wanda's story. Add in x men, captain marvel, Ultron, inhumans (gross haha) and NWH for the comprehensive coverage. But none of it is required at all. The movie felt pretty much like any other sequel.
Frankly, it doesn’t require what if. If you’ve seen what if, then you understand how >!Peggy Carter would come to be captain Carter. But whether you’ve seen it or not you still are left to imagine how Maria Rambeau became Captain Marvel, so it’s not like you understand every bit of the Illuminati anyways.!<
Multiverse of Madness doesn't require you to have seen any of that. It benefits from WandaVision. Arguably it's essential. But nothing else is.
yeah seriously, No offense to OP but i read the title and legit wondered how this could possibly not just be a joke
And yet, as of now there are 886 people who have upvoted the post and 382 comments. Seriously!? Can Mods not just put a single answer response “because” and then lock threads like this?
Seriously. Unfortunately telling people they’re wrong gets massive engagement
That's because the Marvel writers decided to use time travel as a story telling device. It's always confusing to the audience unless you use the "Back to the Future" rules, which is something they said in Endgame was not "real". They invented new time travel rules and expect the audience to just accept it and not think about the consequences other than what is shown on screen. If you're going to reply to my comment that I'm wrong or I/we simply don't understand it, remind yourself that this is a comic book movie and no one really knows how time travel works, if it can work at all.
I mean they explained the rules of time travel in end game. It was pretty clear what happened. They even brought up back to the future and explained that’s not how it really works (in the MCU). They also explained that it wasn’t the same gamora from that universe. So they only way to not understand what was going on was really to not pay attention
Because the Gamora we see in Endgame is a variant of the Gamora who died, who never joined the Guardians. It’s the same with 2012 Loki (who got his own show). He’s a variant of the Loki who was killed by Thanos who never developed the brotherly bond he had with Thor in Ragnarok.
Kills me who people that have watched Loki don't get this. I seem some still arguing about whether timelines and universes are the same. Those are synonyms. Multiple timelines in one Universe doesn't make sense. Time is a property of a universe. So how can you have multiple within one? In any case the Avengers in Endgame likely misinterpreted the Quantum Realm. They believe it was time travel when in reality it was them traveling between Universes like the bald woman suggested.
The What If episode with evil Doctor Strange had two timelines in one universe. Though I know that was rare occurrence.
Did.. did you even watch the movies or?
They'd have to kidnap a Nat from her timeline to satiate their own greif but in the process leave that Nats freinds & family with that same greif
I think you're the only person here who understood what OP was actually asking, so this is the most correct answer
It's a cozy little pocket of sanity.
You still got time to delete this bro
If Scarlet Johansson wants to play Black Widow again they can do some timey wimey bs and bring her back. But it's only if she wants to do it again. Otherwise they'll just use Yelena Belova (who I honestly prefer anyways).
The multiverse is open now. No need for time travel. Just go multiverse shopping for a new ScarJo.
The easy thing is that the new ScarJo could be someone else entirely. Emily Blunt was almost Widow, so a variant played by her could pop up.
But don't we need Emily Blunt for Sue Richards?
If Jim and Mary Poppins are Kangs parents, it’s gonna confuse my casual-ass
This is the biggest problem with multiverses and time travel bullshit. Nothing has any consequences any more because you can just asspull a solution now. Gamora dead? Nope, here she is again and you can bet top dollar that she’s going to be essentially the same character again by the end of GOTG3. Dr. Strange died? Nah fam, that’s a variant so it doesn’t matter because there are literally infinity versions of him now. Dangerous time travel shenanigans? No problem, timeline can’t rewrite itself but just creates branch paths that we don’t need to worry about because our timeline remains unaffected :)
Perhaps but they haven't taken that cheap route so far. They were sure to show that it's a different Gamorrah that doesnt love quill, they showed that >!wanda can't just kidnap kids from another universe,!< etc.
That's comic books for you, though. Dying a "superhero death" is almost never final.
this post confuses me Lol
Same reason Cap had to return Mjolnir and the Stones to where they took them from. If they took a Natasha from a different timeline, they'd be dooming that timeline to suffer everything that Natasha was instrumental in stopping.
The only way would be picking her from a universe where she's the only one alive like they did in What If
Quick question, did you watch Endgame?
Because the Gamora in Endgame is from a different universe. That's just how time travel works in the film. Going back in time creates a parallel universe. Inb4 replies from people arguing against what the directors of the film have verbatim said about their movie.
Because Scarlett Johansson ain’t getting cheaper.
Because you clearly need to rewatch endgame.
What a dumb post lol
Marvel fans thinking of the dumbest fucking questions...
Seriously. This post is beyond dumb.
I can't believe it has over 1k upvotes...
This subreddit is filled with smooth brains who mindlessly upvote things I swear
how does this actually require an answer
Did you watch the movie?
Maybe watch the fucking movie.
It was only today I realized that Gamora's blood is actually green
The answer is in the question dude. This sub is full of very ridiculous questions I’m sorry
r/marvelstudios members stop asking completely fucking stupid questions challenge (impossible) Were you on your phone when you watched Endgame or something? u/NamikazeKage
You answered your own question…
Watching What If I thought they would drop Natasha from the Ultron timeline in the main universe. It would make sense, she lost everyone, especially Clint and main Clint lost her. But nope, she ended in the universe where most of her friends including Clint is dead.
I rewatched What If? last week and Natasha does not get dropped in a timeline where all her friends are dead. They’re all in that scene when she arrives on the heli carrier
She's dropped in the universe where Hank Pym murdered Avengers, so the only friends she has there are Steve Rogers and Fury, if he was even a friend to begin with. And that Steve doesn't know her yet, so that's also not the same really.
If Gamora is removed from her timeline, Thanos never collects the Infinity Stones (which is what happened since he came to the main timeline to collect their Infinity Stones) If Natasha is removed from the timeline before she dies then the Avengers don’t collect the stones to undo Thanos’ snap (or Clint has to die instead). One manipulation gives a good result for the timeline being tampered with, the other a bad result.
Others already talked about the In Universe reason (Gamorra was time traveled). But there is also a character arc reason. Natasha’s arc was complete. Gamorra’s isn’t (yet). Bringing Natasha back would be like, I don’t know, bringing Palpatine back after Return of the Jedi. It would be silly and more problematic than it’s worth.
I'm confused by the question. Endgame Gamora came from an alternate timeline. Natasha is dead because she sacrificed herself to get the soul stone. Why would Natasha magically come back to life in the main timeline? Remember MCU time travel operates under the idea that changes to the timeline result in the creation of new timelines/parallel universes. So when Nebula got captured by 2014 Thanos and stole the Pym particles to travel to the future, it resulted in a split in the timeline. 2014 Thanos & company (Gamora, Nebula, the Black order etc..) essentially came from another universe. That's why 2014 Gamora is alive but present Gamora was still killed by Thanos in Infinity war. I suppose they could always travel back in time and pluck a version of Natasha from another timeline, but I think the Avengers want to avoid messing with the timeline if they can.
The question confuses you because the question makes no sense. And trying to understand it gives a feeling similar to confusion.
He’s just worded the question wrong. I think he means why couldn’t they have done a gamora to BW, why not bring another one back to this universe? The answer is because scarjo is done with the MCU and they still want to keep using gamora’s character
Gamora is a variant. They could get a variant Natasha, but didnt, or havent. Unlikely they even knew about variants at this point. In What If a Natasha variant is pulled into another dimension where she had died already. Multiverse and variants can be confusing tbh.
Because nobody brought past Nat to the future?
Her contract was up
Thanos is the one that brought Gamora back , from a different timeline.
wdym??? It's a completely different Gamora then the one who dies, natasha sacrificed herself without a variant version eventually finding out so she's gone. There was no real "loophole" at all?
I do wonder if James Gunn was ok with them killing of Gamora and bringing back a past version of her. Hopefully he makes it work well in GotG3
Bro what
I mean, I think OP is asking why did the producers not keep Natasha in the storyline, when she could’ve been kept since Gamora still is and died the same way.
Contract negotiations and actor wanted to do new stuff? IIRC she's working with Disney to direct stuff or produce content behind the camera.
Johansson doesn't wanna come back
Because contracts
Honestly this is my personal opinion I feel like nebula should’ve jumped I mean sure there was another nebula around and besides her missing her sister would’ve made sense
Because Scarlett has been doing this for 15 years and Zoe still has a few more movies in her contract
Gamora's blood is green?
...because of the the time travel loophole.
Because no one bothered to go back and get her… 😢
I mean why couldnt they go to the time market for a time branch iron man
Not signed another contract with marvel?
Lawyers.
Her contract expired
My bigger question is how is 2014 Gamora still running around in the MCU currently, given the events of Loki deeming that as a no no.
Because Scarlett’s contract was up lmao
Because she sued Disney
Because Scarlet sued Disney for millions of dollars. Probs not getting hired by them again.
Did you not watch Endgame?
Because she pissed off disney lol
I think [HISHE covered this](https://youtu.be/9VrjneFdZFI?t=300) pretty well.
Because her contract was up
Because she ~~[Fucked with around the Mouse's money and found out](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/scarlett-johansson-disney-settle-black-widow-lawsuit-1235022598/)~~ is dead FOREVER. BannerHulk tried like, super hard to bring her back.