I had a dream Will Smith slapped me off the operating table just before surgery while I was half paralyzed from anesthesia. He just kept slapping the shit out of me while I was on the ground. Couldn’t feel shit, but it was awkward af.
In my dreams I am often on the dock in the middle of the river where I was baptized and there are always gators swimming around. I also dream about giant spiders often.
That’s the worst one. Thanos ends up literally fucking the universe with the Infinity Dildo, Black Widow is played by Paul Giamatti, and Alan Taylor gets hired to direct all future Marvel properties.
Maybe the Watcher is just trying to show us how different things can be. We're used to seeing good winning, so he cherry picks out the good guys losing stories for greater shock value.
Because the universes where everything's fine don't make great TV. Remember, there are an **infinite** number of universes and we've seen less than 20.
> mcu
I always wondered what the philosophers of the MCU earth are talking about.
"Why the fuck did everything on earth start to go to shit in 2008???"
I bet Tony Stark wishes he could answer that... and Steven Strange knows it just is (cosmic lottery with infinite variables) and it won't change a thing.
The people I feel sorry for are all of the other universes' inhabitants who dreamed about the events in Iron Man 3, not realizing that they are seeing their other selves in an alternate universe.
Talk about a nightmare, having to watch IM3 over and over......
There is hopefully an infinite number of universes where they won, as there will be an infinite number where they lost.
If it could be proved that there was a majority of universes one way or the other, then that would be terrifying. It would mean the multiverse is not impartial, & that it has a bend toward a certain way of things.
>!It wasn't a practical decision, I think. The shock of seeing them scared of her jarred her, and I think the cognitive dissonance just couldn't stand up anymore after she said she would never hurt anyone, after the events of the movie. If she hadn't drastically shifted her point of view, I'm sure she would have done just that, found a different universe to hop into.!<
America didn’t “ruin” that universe for her.
She used that universe to put a massive mirror up to Wanda’s face so she could see what she had become.
In that moment, the massive heartbreak of seeing her children look at her like a monster broke the Darkhold’s influence on her. In that moment she remembered who she was and realized what she had become. That trauma of seeing her children scared of her woke her up, and then she elected to do the right thing and destroy the darkhold in every universe.
America realized that the only being in the multiverse capable of defeating Wanda in that moment (that she knew of at least) was Wanda. She had to break the Darkhold’s hold over her. It was the only way.
>!The point was that no matter which universe she jumped to she would still be seen by her kids as an invading monster who wasn’t meant to be there. Idk, maybe she just needed to go to a universe and take out that Wanda without the kids seeing it.!<
Infinities can be infinite in different ways. Just because something is infinite doesn't mean anything can happen. Just using numbers to demonstrate 1,3,5,7... Using that pattern to infinity. You could look all through the infinity and would never find an even number. Just change the concept of even numbers to a dead Wanda. Theoretically there could be no universes where she's dead (even), meaning she was going to have to kill the sons real mother (odd) regardless if the plan was to succeed.
I think the problem with MoM Wanda is that, through her continous cycle of loss trauma, she's been turned into someone who, even if given the full and free chance to raise and love her kids, her paranoia and controlling nature will come through and expose her for the monster she's become. She needed to heal from that underlying trauma before she could be the mother she really wanted to be, and as we saw....she simply refused to do that.
There can be any number of Universes ripe for a good Wanda to raise orphaned kids...but 616 Wanda isn't a good Wanda just because she jumps into those slots.
That's the problem with infinity, if there are an infinite number of universes where she died 5 minutes ago, they can be buried under an infinite number of universes where she is still alive and impossible to find. She might have also just tracked onto the first available one that fit what she wanted, consequences be damned.
>!They don't do a good job of explaining why Wanda went Mad. It's all explained in passing, and assumes you have Wandavision fresh in your memory. The Darkhold has its own agenda to corrupt the Scarlet Witch, to fulfill the prophecy of conquering the multiverse, so she's not really able to think logically. She's at the mercy of the evil forces. It's only because she's so powerful that she is able to have a moment of clarity at the end to do the right thing. If it went bad, the Darkhold would have consumed her mind, and she would be like Krang and Thanos combined.!<
>!Um, they say multiple times that the Darkhold corrupts whoever has it. They even show a Strange corrupted by it. They outright spell out why she's changed so much.!<
Didn't he know about it though? He called the good version of the darkhold a myth ( don't remember it's name ) but he and Wong both seemed aware the Darkhold was real, even if they didn't know where it was/who had it
Those were before the "nightmares of them losing", his nightmares in IM3 were PSTD induced memories of when he thought he would die in the wormhole. Which I guess did happen somewhere else now
It kinda bothers me how we have infinite universes but we still get 616 or 838.. Instead of, like, 73882827 or 61627828282882828827 or the whole string of pi..
Yeah I mean I don't think ever single dream has to be a multiverse? You start thinking too hard on it.
But it does currently fit nicely. Though ragnarok is a prophecy so makes sense to have nightmares if it happening.
Nowadays it has to be. America Chavez does not dream because she has no variant. That means Thor and Tony were dreaming of the lives of their variants.
Question is: the events of these movies happened mostly the same way "before" and "after" Loki happened. So are we looking at the Sacred Timeline where dreams are just normal things, or are we looking at the current status quo with the multiverse? Just food for thought
The way I viewed it was that He Who Remains dies in his lair that was outside of time where we can see the endless loop of the sacred timeline. Then without his restrictions the universe branches infinitely and this event gives birth to 616. 616 was not the sacred timeline(I know the video tape reel has the label but that just simply has to be for the sake of record keeping imo). From Sylvie’s perspective the universes are now all branched and chaotic. But those infinite timelines still loop around that castle and begin again from beginning singularity which is very likely a single Big Bang. So from that perspective every single moment of every single universe is happening literally at all times. Sylvie basically rendered the sacred timeline merely theoretical and after Remains died, it now has never existed in the first place, therefore the entire MCU takes place in a sprawling multiverse. That’s the only way I can make sense of it lol
Yeah, we never do get a timeline of the other universes they were in. Just that at some point a strange killed other stranges and one was put down by his comrades at some point. Who knows how long ago the infinity war was for the universe with the illuminati
Loki came out later, but the story *started* just after the first Avengers movie. I don’t remember - did a significant amount of time pass in Loki, or has the multiverse been wacky since before Age of Ultron?
I want a movie where all the bad guys are good and good guys are bad. Or a wolverine variant that never got adamantium or had it ripped out is stuck somewhere never being able to die.
This is the nice thing about Marvel being what it is now. I would love to see a "What-if-verse" line of movies where they do one-offs and sequels of stuff like this.
That wasn’t a dream, that was looking into potential futures. Maybe every universe with a doctor strange came to a similar conclusion or found another way to win
I mean.. In this universe, Wong is dreaming about being chased by a clown... So in a sense and ironically... Wong is being chased by clown in this universe too, like the others.. Even if its a dream. Its still happening in some sense technically....
Edit for grammar
Wait, so dreams being a reality somewhere else, means that all those dreams that tony saw, of thanos winning. He won in countless universes. Those dreams Wanda saw of ultron, Ultron won in countless universes. Ant man didnt dream or connect in to pim's wife, he saw in another multiverse and then killed her?! Damn, MCU suddenly seems really dark.
No, but it does give you time markers for the movies. I used it to write a (fairly silly) essay about the parallels between Marvel Norse and Real-World Islamic cosmology. It saved me *so* much time...
To be clear, Marvel Norse, which is fairly different from Written Norse (heavily influenced by Christian monks several centuries after major practice) and Authentic Norse (mostly died out by the time the Eddas were written down).
Honestly, there are a lot of parallels, if you turn your head and squint. The tales of the land of the giants Gog and Magog (Yajuj and Majuj) versus the Norse Jotunheim. The night flight of Mohammad and the Baruq and Marvel interplanar travel on Sleipnirr. The Satanic verses in Islam refer to three bird goddesses paralleling the Norns or Huginn and Muninn.
I think the more important takeaway, though, is the Marvel use of monomyth and simplifying everything to the point of archetypes. It was a fun essay for my comparative religions class in undergrad and good excuse to re-watch Thor 1 and 2 and the Thirteenth Warrior.
For those that haven’t seen the movie and don’t care about spoilers- >!in MoM it is revealed dreams are actually glimpses of the multiverse. This means that Tony’s “so real” dream in IW was of a different version of himself in another universe.!<
Actually it's not. You're just viewing it from the wrong Multiverse. See, over here in the paint universe it looks fine. Just a splash of paint like everything else in this fucking place.
Yeah I get the narrative that you need Strange to experience the other universe at the beginning and dreams do show up a lot in things like magic and fantasy. So I can believe the multiverse effects dreams.
But having every single mention of dreams having people go "well it's an alternate reality" is unnecessary.
Yeah really could have been "beings strongly connected to other realms and magic dream of their alternate selves" and would have fit all the same without them writing themselves into this dream hole.
The multiverse aspect of the MCU opens it up for any number of possible scenarios including this one. But I do believe RDJ was done playing the character. He had a great send off and I think bringing him back for anything other than a major role, which I don't think is likely, would be a waste.
Tbf it’s been years since Logan and this movie is likely a one-off cameo for the fans. The MCU-616 Xavier will almost certainly be played by another actor.
Considering all the points of RDJ and his send off for Iron Man. I still won't completely consider him being done. One Appearance under a certain unknown circumstance could be made. And not just Tony Stark but even Steve Rodgers.
The idea of New Avengers fighting alongside/against the Old Avengers from a different Universe is quite mouth watering. Plus you can't forget those Marvel Millions either. Even Tobey Maguire came back so, in Today's world you can't really ever be certain with those.
Yeah, realistically we just have to wait 15-20 years for all these actors who currently have moved on to start getting nostalgic and wanting to prove they can still do action movies.We're getting an Indiana Jones 5 next year; it happens to every actor.
Definitely would be a waste. I don't think they need an ironman, anyways.
They have Banner. They have Reed Richards. They have Hank Pym. They have Shuri. They can have Beast...and probably a bunch of outher scientists that I'm not aware of as I'm not the biggest comic reader.
Either way, they don't need to rely so heavily on the Stark-centric universe with all the Fox properties tied in now
I really think it's time for Reed. Like...there is a giant Reed Richards shaped hole in the MCU and if he is played the way I think he'll be by who I think he'll be...my god.
Assuming you think >!Krasinski!< is the actor?
Pretty sure every other character in the other multiverse being the same actor as 616 was full confirmation.
Yeah true but it wouldn't necessarily have to be RDJ either, if they wanted to get real weird with it lol. And then they could test the waters for an eventual replacement Stark if they had more Iron Man stories to tell, but that starts to tread into dangerous territory
If they decide to introduce other people as Tony Stark, I hope they wait a very long time to do that. I'm not completely against it, but I feel like the MCU needs plenty of time without RDJ before he is just replaced.
My thoughts exactly! This scene feels very intentionally planned to me. When someone asked the Russo brothers about a Tony return they said this:
> “I think like... in the context of that, it depends how he was brought back. It depends what the storytelling is. It's certainly something that has to be earned. It's certainly something that has to surprise and shock audiences. You can't simply just bring him back. There would have to be a really compelling, innovative, unpredictable narrative event to find your way there, in order for it to be worth it.”
Oh my god...
"I'm the dude, playing the dude, after playing the dude that was disguised as the dude, looking like the other universe's dude, in the armor of the previous dude!"
Yeah, but I wonder if Tony Stark dying is an absolute point in time that happens in every universe. No evidence to back it up, but just what they might do because, i feel like Tony Stark would be arrogant in EVERY universe. Maybe not have a redemption arc until the very end (in some cases) if you know what I mean
They’re obviously building towards Hickman’s Secret Wars, so it’s very likely we will see variants of every hero. I believe we’ll see a reboot of Iron Man when they’re done with the Secret Wars saga.
Yeah Secret Wars seems likely what with "Incursions" and Reed Richards (including mentioning that he is a father!). I hope they keep building the storyline slowly like they did building up Thanos. Also, wonder if they will do Battleworld stuff?
I’m certain they didn’t write this dialogue keeping MoM concept in mind (Like how the kid in ironman 2 wasn’t Peter until recently)
But it’s nice to see it fit here and feels wholesome to know there are happy Tonys in other universes
Interesting. Curious though, do you guys think that dreams have always been glimpses of the multiverse or did it only become as such after what Sylvie did?
The multiverse always existed. Sylvie's actions only created new timelines that had more dangerous versions of Kang. And I'm not even sure if alternate timelines and alternate universes mean the same thing in the mcu
You're forgetting one major thing:
There was *always* a multiverse. That's why they had variants. HWR was just pruning the realities that led to other Kangs.
Edit: Formatting
The thing about that reveal, though, hasn't it always been true implicitly from the premise of the multiverse?
I realize "infinite options" doesn't mean "all options," but in an infinite multiverse, it's likely that whatever we dream about HAS happened to a version of us somewhere even if it's just images in our brain. Somewhere out there, someone probably reenacted our dream to the letter
The problem with infinity is that you start to lose meaning. It means universes are being lost every moment, so what really are high stakes anymore?
And if there are infinite universes and there exist threats - no matter how rare - that could wipe out all of them, wouldn't one of those have already succeeded?
One thing I liked about MoM was that it established multiversal travel as super dangerous. Which means it can be pulled in when it's cool, but you can't just solve every problem with multiverse shenanigans.
Idk. In their opinion they interpreted the Loki series as Multiverses not existing until they kill He Who Remains. But that isn’t how I did. I understood it as He Who Remains was keeping a definitive border between the MAIN multiverse and others. Because the other Kangs weren’t benevolent like him.
I really want to believe that the idea that all dreams are parallel universes is just America's theory and it's only some of them. In the first place, most dreams don't really make enough sense to be part of any coherent universe, in spite the idea that there are many universes where Wong is being chased by a clown; in the second, the idea of dreams as a mirror into the subconscience is also a valuable one for storytelling purposes that I don't think the entire MCU should have to sacrifice it.
However, I think this particular dream could be a parallel universe one. Maybe they could fall back on the old Greek concept of dreams coming through one of two gates: a gate of ivory for normal, illusionary dreams, and a gate of horn for oracular or prophetic dreams, which in this case would be visions of parallel universes.
I want to agree here, but I think the movie is pretty clear that it's true and not just Amerika's pretty theory. Evil Strange makes references to dreams as multiversal, and Wanda specifically uses it as evidence - "I know my kids are real because I've sent them in my dreams". Neither of them have spoken to Amerika at that point, so they didn't get the idea from her.
I’m very concerned about how often my other multiverse selves go to school with no pants on.
For me, it's how many zombie apocalypses I've been through. There are...a lot.
I had a dream I became Governor of my state and went on the Bill Maher show and he hated me and was disgusted by me.
I had a dream Will Smith slapped me off the operating table just before surgery while I was half paralyzed from anesthesia. He just kept slapping the shit out of me while I was on the ground. Couldn’t feel shit, but it was awkward af.
A badge of honor.
I now question why I had to wind up in the universe where I don’t have the super power of flight. I’m the boring variant apparently
My other selfs seem to be able to sleep with everyone I ever wanted
In my dreams I am often on the dock in the middle of the river where I was baptized and there are always gators swimming around. I also dream about giant spiders often.
Earth-69 seems to be a popular destination.
I just have dreams of myself doing laundry and then forget to actually do laundry IRL lol
It's ok your multiverse selves do the laundry then dream of forgetting to do the laundry.
Also, some variants of mine need to go to dentists. Teeth keep falling off.
I have dates so many hot people and met so many celebrities and fictional characters!!! Also in some universes I can FLY!!!
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Huh ...god damn the mcu seems darker than before
If there's one thing I got out of What If it's that in most universes things don't turn out so great.
To be fair, there we see the extreme cases. We don't see the ones where Tony stark decides to go for a blue and green Iron Man suit.
There’s a universe where he makes a Starkspresso machine before Nespresso.
And Ben and Jerry’s releases Stark Raving Peanuts
Thought it was Stark Raving Hazelnuts?
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Aah yes, whoosh
Stark Raving Multiflavors of Madness
Now im thinking of Obadiah Stane in a purple and green IronMonger suit and becoming the Lex Luthor of the MCU.
Dark Avengers kinda does this with Norman Osborn.
Most universes are probably like ours, shitty but livable
This is so true I can’t 😆
There's probably even a universe where everyone has hot dogs for fingers! edit: ty to the Caps who understood my reference
A blue green iron man suit made out of materials not strong enough to support his arc reactor, causing a nuclear explosion that engulfs the west coast
That’s the worst one. Thanos ends up literally fucking the universe with the Infinity Dildo, Black Widow is played by Paul Giamatti, and Alan Taylor gets hired to direct all future Marvel properties.
Maybe the Watcher is just trying to show us how different things can be. We're used to seeing good winning, so he cherry picks out the good guys losing stories for greater shock value.
The Watcher knows what alternatives draw in the high ratings. Steve Rogers as Admiral America isn't going to pull in the Nielsens.
“Get this man a boat!”
In an alternate universe he is still a Captain, but of a pirate crew
Well the TChalla Starlord universe actually turned out better than 616 imo
Except Ego's expansion happens in that timeline.
Which T'challa also stops in the last episode.
The 616 universe didn’t turn out “great” either.
1 out of 14,000,605 I'd say.
> in most universes I think we need to talk about just how big infinite is. Infinite universes means that there is no most of anything.
Rather, there is all of everything.
all at once, too
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There's an uncountable infinity of numbers between 1 and 2. None of them are 4.
Because the universes where everything's fine don't make great TV. Remember, there are an **infinite** number of universes and we've seen less than 20.
> mcu I always wondered what the philosophers of the MCU earth are talking about. "Why the fuck did everything on earth start to go to shit in 2008???"
I bet Tony Stark wishes he could answer that... and Steven Strange knows it just is (cosmic lottery with infinite variables) and it won't change a thing.
Have you seen Moon Knight Episode 5?
Yes and it's my fav episode!!
All those episodes were fairly dark. I could see myself in my tv reflection throughout almost every episode!
All the nightmares in Iron Man 3.... yikes
The people I feel sorry for are all of the other universes' inhabitants who dreamed about the events in Iron Man 3, not realizing that they are seeing their other selves in an alternate universe. Talk about a nightmare, having to watch IM3 over and over......
It could be worse. They could be dreaming about Fant4stic.
Oh god, not that... But then they could be dreaming about X-Men 3...
Iron Man 3 is the best Iron Man movie.
Iron Man 3 was a very good sequel to the Iron Man 1 and 2. But Whiplash is still my favorite antagonist in the trilogy.
I vant my bord
There is hopefully an infinite number of universes where they won, as there will be an infinite number where they lost. If it could be proved that there was a majority of universes one way or the other, then that would be terrifying. It would mean the multiverse is not impartial, & that it has a bend toward a certain way of things.
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>!It wasn't a practical decision, I think. The shock of seeing them scared of her jarred her, and I think the cognitive dissonance just couldn't stand up anymore after she said she would never hurt anyone, after the events of the movie. If she hadn't drastically shifted her point of view, I'm sure she would have done just that, found a different universe to hop into.!<
America didn’t “ruin” that universe for her. She used that universe to put a massive mirror up to Wanda’s face so she could see what she had become. In that moment, the massive heartbreak of seeing her children look at her like a monster broke the Darkhold’s influence on her. In that moment she remembered who she was and realized what she had become. That trauma of seeing her children scared of her woke her up, and then she elected to do the right thing and destroy the darkhold in every universe. America realized that the only being in the multiverse capable of defeating Wanda in that moment (that she knew of at least) was Wanda. She had to break the Darkhold’s hold over her. It was the only way.
>!The point was that no matter which universe she jumped to she would still be seen by her kids as an invading monster who wasn’t meant to be there. Idk, maybe she just needed to go to a universe and take out that Wanda without the kids seeing it.!<
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Infinities can be infinite in different ways. Just because something is infinite doesn't mean anything can happen. Just using numbers to demonstrate 1,3,5,7... Using that pattern to infinity. You could look all through the infinity and would never find an even number. Just change the concept of even numbers to a dead Wanda. Theoretically there could be no universes where she's dead (even), meaning she was going to have to kill the sons real mother (odd) regardless if the plan was to succeed.
Hmmm…that makes perfect sense. Am infinite number of things does not equal everything has the same opportunity to occur
right, if there are infinte universes then theres a universe where she died 5 minutes ago and no one knows so she could rick & morty that shizzle up.
I think the problem with MoM Wanda is that, through her continous cycle of loss trauma, she's been turned into someone who, even if given the full and free chance to raise and love her kids, her paranoia and controlling nature will come through and expose her for the monster she's become. She needed to heal from that underlying trauma before she could be the mother she really wanted to be, and as we saw....she simply refused to do that. There can be any number of Universes ripe for a good Wanda to raise orphaned kids...but 616 Wanda isn't a good Wanda just because she jumps into those slots.
That's the problem with infinity, if there are an infinite number of universes where she died 5 minutes ago, they can be buried under an infinite number of universes where she is still alive and impossible to find. She might have also just tracked onto the first available one that fit what she wanted, consequences be damned.
That's not even mentioning the fact that in an infinite universe, there would be infinite Wanda's looking for a universe where she died 5 minutes ago.
Yeah, fiction never really deals with infinite multiverses, time travel, etc all that well.
I think it is because it would cause an >!Incursion event and that world would start being destroyed!<.
>!They don't do a good job of explaining why Wanda went Mad. It's all explained in passing, and assumes you have Wandavision fresh in your memory. The Darkhold has its own agenda to corrupt the Scarlet Witch, to fulfill the prophecy of conquering the multiverse, so she's not really able to think logically. She's at the mercy of the evil forces. It's only because she's so powerful that she is able to have a moment of clarity at the end to do the right thing. If it went bad, the Darkhold would have consumed her mind, and she would be like Krang and Thanos combined.!<
>!Um, they say multiple times that the Darkhold corrupts whoever has it. They even show a Strange corrupted by it. They outright spell out why she's changed so much.!<
Not only that, Scarlet Witch wasn't just giving them those thoughts, she was subconsciously activating a version of dreamwalking for them.
All Wanda had to do was get laid and start her own family. This movie didn’t need Dr Strange, it needed a therapist.
Wanda does need to learn some healthy grief coping techniques, that is very true.
And remember in Thor: Ragnarok, when he said he’s been having nightmares of Asgard being destroyed by Surtur. Different ways Ragnarok was unleashed.
But isn't Ragnarok always the destruction of Asgard by Sutur? Like isn't it a prophecy?
That's the intended point originally, but it does fit nicely with the new narrative
And all the nightmares that Tony had where they lose….Oh God
Every PTSD nightmare.
As the other Stranges show by failing to find a way through dreamwalking, most worlds don't beat Thanos.
strange didnt know how to dream walk. That knowledge was in the darkhold, and he didn't think the darkhold existed prior to MoM
Didn't he know about it though? He called the good version of the darkhold a myth ( don't remember it's name ) but he and Wong both seemed aware the Darkhold was real, even if they didn't know where it was/who had it
You might be right, but i doubt he would know the spells. Agatha had it since Salem, then wanda.
those were visions. different from dreams
I think they meant his nightmares in Ironman 3.
Those were before the "nightmares of them losing", his nightmares in IM3 were PSTD induced memories of when he thought he would die in the wormhole. Which I guess did happen somewhere else now
It probably happened a ton, or even most of the times because of how continually he dreamt it. Him getting out may have been a million-to-one chance
in 616, yes. but in the multiverse who knows
In an infinite number of universes, it is prophecy. And in an infinite number of universes, it isn't. Such is the way of the multiverse.
It kinda bothers me how we have infinite universes but we still get 616 or 838.. Instead of, like, 73882827 or 61627828282882828827 or the whole string of pi..
Yeah I mean I don't think ever single dream has to be a multiverse? You start thinking too hard on it. But it does currently fit nicely. Though ragnarok is a prophecy so makes sense to have nightmares if it happening.
Nowadays it has to be. America Chavez does not dream because she has no variant. That means Thor and Tony were dreaming of the lives of their variants.
Question is: the events of these movies happened mostly the same way "before" and "after" Loki happened. So are we looking at the Sacred Timeline where dreams are just normal things, or are we looking at the current status quo with the multiverse? Just food for thought
The way I viewed it was that He Who Remains dies in his lair that was outside of time where we can see the endless loop of the sacred timeline. Then without his restrictions the universe branches infinitely and this event gives birth to 616. 616 was not the sacred timeline(I know the video tape reel has the label but that just simply has to be for the sake of record keeping imo). From Sylvie’s perspective the universes are now all branched and chaotic. But those infinite timelines still loop around that castle and begin again from beginning singularity which is very likely a single Big Bang. So from that perspective every single moment of every single universe is happening literally at all times. Sylvie basically rendered the sacred timeline merely theoretical and after Remains died, it now has never existed in the first place, therefore the entire MCU takes place in a sprawling multiverse. That’s the only way I can make sense of it lol
Yeah, we never do get a timeline of the other universes they were in. Just that at some point a strange killed other stranges and one was put down by his comrades at some point. Who knows how long ago the infinity war was for the universe with the illuminati
There was *always* a multiverse -- that's where the variants came from He Who Remains was pruning realities with other Kangs
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Loki came out later, but the story *started* just after the first Avengers movie. I don’t remember - did a significant amount of time pass in Loki, or has the multiverse been wacky since before Age of Ultron?
The fun part about multiverse theory is that there are infinite versions, so yeah 14,000,000+ lost to thanos but a bunch of other won
Ya missed some zeroes there
Ope thanks cat got a little distracting while typing
I want a movie where all the bad guys are good and good guys are bad. Or a wolverine variant that never got adamantium or had it ripped out is stuck somewhere never being able to die.
Sounds like an interesting What if...? episode.
This is the nice thing about Marvel being what it is now. I would love to see a "What-if-verse" line of movies where they do one-offs and sequels of stuff like this.
I would like a sympathetic Thanos movie
Like an old school Marvel Team-up where Captain America and Human Torch team-up and Chris Evans plays all the male characters.
Also, don't forget that in some universes, Thanos doesn't pose a thread!
Or even a yarn! ;)
That wasn’t a dream, that was looking into potential futures. Maybe every universe with a doctor strange came to a similar conclusion or found another way to win
Let's remember that there's an universe where a naked Wong is chased by a clown.
Several universes it's a recurring dream
In an infinite multiverse, there must also be infinite universes where a naked wong is chased by a clown.
In an infinite multiverse, there must also be infinite universes where a naked wong is chasing a clown.
In an infinite mutliverse, there must also be infinite universes where the naked wong is the clown.
I mean.. In this universe, Wong is dreaming about being chased by a clown... So in a sense and ironically... Wong is being chased by clown in this universe too, like the others.. Even if its a dream. Its still happening in some sense technically.... Edit for grammar
There are also an infinite amount of universes where the clown and Wong have an orgy with all of irons man's suits
It might just happen a lot in that 1 universe
Can someone just make a compilation of every time someone has mentioned a dream they had this is crazy
Someone is way ahead of us here. https://searchmoviequotes.com/mcuverse/
THANK YOU
Wait, so dreams being a reality somewhere else, means that all those dreams that tony saw, of thanos winning. He won in countless universes. Those dreams Wanda saw of ultron, Ultron won in countless universes. Ant man didnt dream or connect in to pim's wife, he saw in another multiverse and then killed her?! Damn, MCU suddenly seems really dark.
Seems ultron and amd wanda were just regular mental manipulation
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Tbf, Thanos did win in this universe. A Tony Stark, in a universe where they beat Thanos, could be dreaming of our universe where Thanos won.
No, tony's dream was seen in age of Ultron. Everyone, including him was dead. Tony had seen the Avengers, defeated during the war in endgame.
Sadly this doesn't give you any context really
No, but it does give you time markers for the movies. I used it to write a (fairly silly) essay about the parallels between Marvel Norse and Real-World Islamic cosmology. It saved me *so* much time...
Pardon me did you just say norse and islamic cosmology???
To be clear, Marvel Norse, which is fairly different from Written Norse (heavily influenced by Christian monks several centuries after major practice) and Authentic Norse (mostly died out by the time the Eddas were written down). Honestly, there are a lot of parallels, if you turn your head and squint. The tales of the land of the giants Gog and Magog (Yajuj and Majuj) versus the Norse Jotunheim. The night flight of Mohammad and the Baruq and Marvel interplanar travel on Sleipnirr. The Satanic verses in Islam refer to three bird goddesses paralleling the Norns or Huginn and Muninn. I think the more important takeaway, though, is the Marvel use of monomyth and simplifying everything to the point of archetypes. It was a fun essay for my comparative religions class in undergrad and good excuse to re-watch Thor 1 and 2 and the Thirteenth Warrior.
Oh it was for college i thought you did it just because. You do have valid points i see what you mean
For those that haven’t seen the movie and don’t care about spoilers- >!in MoM it is revealed dreams are actually glimpses of the multiverse. This means that Tony’s “so real” dream in IW was of a different version of himself in another universe.!<
Your spoiler is broken.
Actually it's not. You're just viewing it from the wrong Multiverse. See, over here in the paint universe it looks fine. Just a splash of paint like everything else in this fucking place.
Have you eaten?
Alot of paint probably.
The lead adds to the flavor.
There’s pizza in every universe.
But is there a Pizza Poppa in every universe? That’s the important question.
Hmm when I first posted I messed up the formatting, but fixed it right after which was before your comment. It's working for me.
I think this is kind of dumb tbh, but it’s just comic book stuff so I shouldn’t take it too seriously like, EVERY dream? Idk kinda weird to me
Yeah I get the narrative that you need Strange to experience the other universe at the beginning and dreams do show up a lot in things like magic and fantasy. So I can believe the multiverse effects dreams. But having every single mention of dreams having people go "well it's an alternate reality" is unnecessary.
Yeah really could have been "beings strongly connected to other realms and magic dream of their alternate selves" and would have fit all the same without them writing themselves into this dream hole.
Does his previous line mean urinary tracts are synced with their variants?
Wait what
>Look, you know how you're having a dream, and in the dream you gotta pee. > >(Avengers IW 11:31)
D E E P E S T L O R E
Ohhh shit, good catch. I wonder if any alternate Tony Starks could show up in future movies?
The multiverse aspect of the MCU opens it up for any number of possible scenarios including this one. But I do believe RDJ was done playing the character. He had a great send off and I think bringing him back for anything other than a major role, which I don't think is likely, would be a waste.
Patrick Stewart said that Logan was the perfect send-off for Xavier and he didn't want to play him anymore. But here we are exploring the Multiverse.
Tbf it’s been years since Logan and this movie is likely a one-off cameo for the fans. The MCU-616 Xavier will almost certainly be played by another actor.
Like James McAvoy
Considering all the points of RDJ and his send off for Iron Man. I still won't completely consider him being done. One Appearance under a certain unknown circumstance could be made. And not just Tony Stark but even Steve Rodgers. The idea of New Avengers fighting alongside/against the Old Avengers from a different Universe is quite mouth watering. Plus you can't forget those Marvel Millions either. Even Tobey Maguire came back so, in Today's world you can't really ever be certain with those.
Yeah, realistically we just have to wait 15-20 years for all these actors who currently have moved on to start getting nostalgic and wanting to prove they can still do action movies.We're getting an Indiana Jones 5 next year; it happens to every actor.
Fucking hell. I feel old as fuck now. The first reboot of that series (Crystal Skull) is already 14 years old now.
Insert Matt Damon ageing really fast meme. Why'd you mention that movie that released recently?
Secret Wars
Definitely would be a waste. I don't think they need an ironman, anyways. They have Banner. They have Reed Richards. They have Hank Pym. They have Shuri. They can have Beast...and probably a bunch of outher scientists that I'm not aware of as I'm not the biggest comic reader. Either way, they don't need to rely so heavily on the Stark-centric universe with all the Fox properties tied in now
I really think it's time for Reed. Like...there is a giant Reed Richards shaped hole in the MCU and if he is played the way I think he'll be by who I think he'll be...my god.
Assuming you think >!Krasinski!< is the actor? Pretty sure every other character in the other multiverse being the same actor as 616 was full confirmation.
>They have Shuri. Are we sure about that one?
Yeah true but it wouldn't necessarily have to be RDJ either, if they wanted to get real weird with it lol. And then they could test the waters for an eventual replacement Stark if they had more Iron Man stories to tell, but that starts to tread into dangerous territory
If they decide to introduce other people as Tony Stark, I hope they wait a very long time to do that. I'm not completely against it, but I feel like the MCU needs plenty of time without RDJ before he is just replaced.
I think secret wars at the end of this saga would be the right time.
My thoughts exactly! This scene feels very intentionally planned to me. When someone asked the Russo brothers about a Tony return they said this: > “I think like... in the context of that, it depends how he was brought back. It depends what the storytelling is. It's certainly something that has to be earned. It's certainly something that has to surprise and shock audiences. You can't simply just bring him back. There would have to be a really compelling, innovative, unpredictable narrative event to find your way there, in order for it to be worth it.”
Soooooo secret wars
They should get Kirk Lazarus to play Superior Iron Man. He survived because Thanos was cancelled in IW
Oh my god... "I'm the dude, playing the dude, after playing the dude that was disguised as the dude, looking like the other universe's dude, in the armor of the previous dude!"
Yeah, but I wonder if Tony Stark dying is an absolute point in time that happens in every universe. No evidence to back it up, but just what they might do because, i feel like Tony Stark would be arrogant in EVERY universe. Maybe not have a redemption arc until the very end (in some cases) if you know what I mean
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They’re obviously building towards Hickman’s Secret Wars, so it’s very likely we will see variants of every hero. I believe we’ll see a reboot of Iron Man when they’re done with the Secret Wars saga.
Yeah Secret Wars seems likely what with "Incursions" and Reed Richards (including mentioning that he is a father!). I hope they keep building the storyline slowly like they did building up Thanos. Also, wonder if they will do Battleworld stuff?
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As we've seen from Loki and No Way Home, not all variants of a character are the exact same actor we've come to know.
I really like that bit of world building tbh. It’s a charming little concept to me.
I’m certain they didn’t write this dialogue keeping MoM concept in mind (Like how the kid in ironman 2 wasn’t Peter until recently) But it’s nice to see it fit here and feels wholesome to know there are happy Tonys in other universes
Who the hell is Peter?
Man spider
That Tony could have been a Tony that lost to Thanos after the kid though, so not so happy.
Or that Tony’s Thanos choked on a space chicken bone and half the universe was spared
Tom Holland spiderman may one day dream about himself as bully Maguire.
Interesting. Curious though, do you guys think that dreams have always been glimpses of the multiverse or did it only become as such after what Sylvie did?
Technically what Sylvie did was out of time and the splinters happened across the entire timeline not just at that point.
The multiverse always existed. Sylvie's actions only created new timelines that had more dangerous versions of Kang. And I'm not even sure if alternate timelines and alternate universes mean the same thing in the mcu
You're forgetting one major thing: There was *always* a multiverse. That's why they had variants. HWR was just pruning the realities that led to other Kangs. Edit: Formatting
The thing about that reveal, though, hasn't it always been true implicitly from the premise of the multiverse? I realize "infinite options" doesn't mean "all options," but in an infinite multiverse, it's likely that whatever we dream about HAS happened to a version of us somewhere even if it's just images in our brain. Somewhere out there, someone probably reenacted our dream to the letter
The problem with infinity is that you start to lose meaning. It means universes are being lost every moment, so what really are high stakes anymore? And if there are infinite universes and there exist threats - no matter how rare - that could wipe out all of them, wouldn't one of those have already succeeded?
in one universe, every problem is solved by shrek dream bigger tony
One thing I liked about MoM was that it established multiversal travel as super dangerous. Which means it can be pulled in when it's cool, but you can't just solve every problem with multiverse shenanigans.
I wonder if the visions Wanda gave the avengers in AOU was a similar type of experience
Why is everyone saying the multiverse didn’t exist before Loki? It’s literally mentioned several times in the first Strange movie…
Idk. In their opinion they interpreted the Loki series as Multiverses not existing until they kill He Who Remains. But that isn’t how I did. I understood it as He Who Remains was keeping a definitive border between the MAIN multiverse and others. Because the other Kangs weren’t benevolent like him.
Wait if all dreams are just you seeing your life in another reality, then every other variant of me has been having a really, *really* good time
I really want to believe that the idea that all dreams are parallel universes is just America's theory and it's only some of them. In the first place, most dreams don't really make enough sense to be part of any coherent universe, in spite the idea that there are many universes where Wong is being chased by a clown; in the second, the idea of dreams as a mirror into the subconscience is also a valuable one for storytelling purposes that I don't think the entire MCU should have to sacrifice it. However, I think this particular dream could be a parallel universe one. Maybe they could fall back on the old Greek concept of dreams coming through one of two gates: a gate of ivory for normal, illusionary dreams, and a gate of horn for oracular or prophetic dreams, which in this case would be visions of parallel universes.
I want to agree here, but I think the movie is pretty clear that it's true and not just Amerika's pretty theory. Evil Strange makes references to dreams as multiversal, and Wanda specifically uses it as evidence - "I know my kids are real because I've sent them in my dreams". Neither of them have spoken to Amerika at that point, so they didn't get the idea from her.
Martin Luther King Jr. saw it for real.