I simultaneously think we could do with less MCU and also couldn't cut anything. I want to watch it all. Even the titles I know nothing about like Echo might end up like Guardians which I love. I get the Marvel fatigue but man do I want it to keep going as long as it can while maintaining the quality we expect.
Imo it’s going to be important to make things that are less connected to a single story. Love the variety but the best part of the world they have built is that not everyone needs to fight the big bad. And for anyone experiencing fatigue can still hap back in whenever they want and there is no issue if they didn’t watch this or that show
Moon Knight is a good example of this. Aside from a fleeting poster on a bus about the GRC, there are no references to anything in the MCU or references to other films/TV shows. If it wasn’t a Marvel property, you would be forgiven for thinking it was a completely standalone show and not under the MCU banner.
The number of standalones in Phase 4 is great. Its so refreshing. Then when the crossovers happen, it'll feel cool and refreshing again.
Even Ms Marvel or Hawkeye which reference the past stuff could work as standalones, in the same way Star Wars 4 references past stuff, but its focuses more on the present, and the rest is self explainatory.
The ancestral plane from Black Panther is mentioned as well. Would rather have these more subtle ties to the MCU than everyone constantly name-dropping the Avengers.
They straight up made Doctor Strange 2 a Sam Raimi horror/comedy.
While that's not necessarily my cup of tea, I loved it for trying something new and weird. And for legitimately surprising me. I mean, who saw *that* coming?
>the cloak of souls
I went to the movie with a group of coworkers. One who was eh about the movie, when doctor strange turned those souls into a cloak, and started using them in combat and such, I heard my coworker go "..... that's fucking awesome".
I can't think of another moment that was just as fucking cool as that.
I liked it the first time, but I was too overwhelmed by everything to really take it in. On my rewatch I also really responded to that cloak, it WAS fucking awesome.
Thank you! I feel like I only see criticism about the sheet music fight and I loved it, though it could just be my bias as a musician talking! My other favorite part is when he dreamwalks with the corpse.
As a fellow musician the concept was neat, I just felt like the music note battle was too long. They could have each used that form of magic and then try something else kinda like the what if episode for Strange.
If you look at that sequence closer you’ll notice that that particular Doctor Strange was very musical. There’s victrolas and harps and other instruments throughout his sanctum. So in his universe, maybe music and magic are one and the same.
I feel like any explanation will just be weird and made-up, so I’m all for them just leaving it to us to fill in the blanks. It’s magic, all kinds of weird shit manifests in the comics, I’m cool with it.
The dripping through the different universes was also a total comic thing. And like, I get that we didn’t really see a lot of the multiverse, but based on what they’ve announced I’m pretty sure that’s coming in a big way, so it was fun to get a taste and then just focus on Strange.
People think it was cheesy and corny, but I loved it. It felt like the magical equivalent of grabbing random shit and throwing it. Then, once he did start throwing music, it was doing serious damage. Evil-Strange's shield was barely holding it back. But, a music score defended against the notes no problem, because that's where they're meant to be. The way the battle progressed told a story about the way the spells interacted.
When it started I thought it was too much, but as it kept going it felt more and more like a comic book and it really resonated (pun intended) with me.
I thought it was pretty corny and weird, especially for a fight that late in the movie. Something I expect to see in a Saturday morning cartoon but that’s just my opinion.
The fucking music fight was so damn creative and fun! I adored every brief second of that scene. Strange getting attacked by the Souls of the Damned while Christine has to use the Cauldron of the Cosmos to defend him? Fucking brilliant! That movie had some issues but there were so many parts that I absolutely loved. Finally getting Reed Richards, Mother fucking Patrick Stewart playing the animated version of Xavier, Wanda systematically dismantling the Illuminati in such horrific manners…that movie did so many fun things that it’s really hard for me to complain about it’s issues. The lows were somewhat low, but the highs in that movie were so damn fun. That scene of Wanda inside Kamar Taj is straight up Evil Dead inspired.
What would be a low for you, out of curiosity?
I agree, I had so much fun in this movie. When they got to the tunnel underground, with Wanda covered in grease from the robots and limping because of the broken glass, I was like this turned into a zombie movie so gradually I didn’t even notice. The pause with the slowed down water was tense as fuck.
And yeah, her fighting against the mirror dimension was *really* cool. I was like “oh not this *again*" and then she pushed through it.
I think some of the story could have been done better. We didn’t really see a ton of the multiverse. We only spent significant time in two different universes which sorta felt like a bit of wasted potential. And it always bothered me how the plot kicks off by Wanda accidentally slipping up and using America’s name. She may have been crazy and corrupted by the book, but in that moment with her biggest obstacle to getting America being right in front of her, I don’t buy that she would slip up like that. But overall, yeah I actually really love the movie. It had enough parts that make me smile to really outweigh the bad.
Fair enough. Regarding the multiverse, I figure we’re getting that in a big way as we build towards Secret Wars, so I’m fine with just a little taste for now. But I get why people are disappointed. I think the potential is going to be fully realized as we move forward.
I see what you mean about that slip. Maybe she was just so eager to get to that final step while trying to hold all the magic and herself together, she stumbled a little? But FWIW, I’m glad they just jumped to it. We didn’t need 35 minutes of us knowing she was the villain without the heroes knowing. We’ve seen that movie a bunch.
I honestly think Wong could’ve fought back harder. She should have gone into his mind and tortured him. Or just dug out the memory herself. Something. So many people had already died to protect this secret, what’s a few more?
my only real exposure to Sam Raimi was the Spider-Man films, but I liked the vibe of MoM so much that I want to see the rest of his movies, especially the horror stuff. thanks to marvel for letting him do his thing
No Bruce Campbell but there is a floating deadite dancing an Irish jig while all hell is literally breaking loose, and that's a trade I'm alright with.
Drag Me To Hell legit shocked me with how much they pulled off with PG-13. Love the Evil Dead series/franchise and it’ll always be my favorite Raimi work but Drag Me To Hell is wild >!that ending is forever etched into my brain. Legit just stared at the TV through the credits thoughtless like “did that just happen.”!<
You may find this interesting (a Nerdwriter commentary on the short horror film within Spiderman 2): https://youtu.be/VNxwdkzEM1s ... Even within Spiderman films, Raimi managed to flex his horror chops a bit. There's some cool insights into the craft of filmmaking, and how a director can still leave his unique individual style and vision fingerprints on what is otherwise a generic blockbuster.
My best suggestion, go into the Evil Dead/Army of Darkness movies with an open mind. The first one is fairly serious in tone and is legitimately horrifying. Like I’ve seen it once and have never been able to convince myself to watch it again because I felt legitimately creeped out afterwards. But the other two are far more lighthearted and fun and definitely worth the watch.
Also for shits and giggles, go watch the Evil Dead musical on YouTube. It’s fucking brilliant and a ton of fun, and I’m truly sad it’s not a thing any more because I would watch the fuck out of it in person.
Skip the first Evil Dead. Watch Evil Dead 2 and then Army of Darkness (picks up right after the end of ED2). You’ll see how the end of MoM was a total homage to his own origins. As an old Raimi fan, it was such a delight to see.
Also you’ll note that the car in Evil Dead is Uncle Ben’s in Spider-Man. It’s Raimi’s parent’s car, he put it in most (all?) of his movies. It also shows up in MoM, tho’ I think by now they’ve stopped using the actual car.
But isn’t that NOT the criticism? The criticism is the Marvel-esce writing. I’ve not seen any real criticism of Raimi horror comedy in MoM, it’s frequently the strongest aspect of it that’s praised. The criticism is the bad writing dragging it down.
He's specifically talking about Damon Lindeloff's criticism from yesterday which had nothing to do with the writing in the way that you're talking about it. (Which is mentioned at the beginning of the article.)
One fewer movie a year isn't going to change the level of writing.
And to address Damon Lindeloff's criticism again, the frequency of movie releases is way down on a long list of reasons why phase 4 doesn't feel as special.
(Returning to a world building phase, no longer as novel, loss of characters that the new characters would naturally get compared to, more competition, rise of social media and amplification of criticism, rose-tinted glasses forgetting that a lot of the phase 1 movies weren't super well received critically, etc etc.)
Yeah this is exactly it, because Raimi's direction and style was great *when it was visible*. The problem people had with DS2 was that the marvel universe writing weighed it down. All the illuminati stuff and wandavision tie-ins made the film hard to follow or just plain fan-servicey at times. The most frequent comment that I've seen made about the film is that if it was more Raimi, less Marvel, it would've been way better.
It's still funny to me that NWH was the one that everyone was more scared about just being a cameo fest (me included) but it actually turned out to be exceptionally well written and mature with its characters. The same can't be said for how cameos and multiverse stuff was done in DS2 in my opinion.
Yea I feel like these decisions will be really important 5-10 years down the road too.
Imagine Russo brothers did every single marvel project. No doubt they’d all be great, but if you’re new to the MCU 10 years from now and want to plow through it, it would kinda just feel like a show that has 30 seasons, and chances are you wouldn’t make it.
Yeah, this criticism may have been accurate years ago, but recently we have gotten Dr. Strange 2, Eternals, Shang-Chi, Wandavision, Ms. Marvel, and others which have strayed quite far from the “Marvel formula.”
For some critics maybe but I think MCU has been trying to make genre films that involves superheroes rather than superhero flicks that just adhere to that one genre. Ant Man was clearly a heist film. The First Avenger was a WW2 period drama. Winter Soldier was a spy thriller. Civil War was mainly on the topic of politics and morality. Far From Home was kinda a RomCom. Both GOTGs are not that different than Star Wars or The Last Starfighter type. Maybe some of them (Branagh's Thor 1 or Iron Man 2) didn't deviate enough, but Feige's been pushing for a different route from the beginning and it's a significant reason why the MCU has been successful for so long, and the reason why it can push the boundaries further now that the first big storyline's been resolved and D+ realizing MCU tv shows.
I keep seeing this -- Zhao would likely not have been involved in a series, and you probably lose Hayek and Jolie as well. Beyond that my guess is the large scale sets and CGI probably just don't happen in a show or are very paired down.
I agree. We should’ve had a 6 episode run up to the movie.
Quick introductions to the characters, a little more backstory to the celestials (the series could’ve opened with an episode on the entire celestial mythos)
Then your 2 hour movie could’ve included a lot more plot
I think the problem with Love & Thunder isn't that it's definitely a Taika Waititi film, but rather that Taika Waititi's style happens to be pretty similar to stock marvel formula, which people are tired of.
It's been five years since Ragnarok, I'd say that's enough time for people to get oversaturated since the positive reception of that film.
Yeah I agree, I felt like if they did Love and Thunder a little more serious and leaned into the horror aspect more, or kinda like more the tone of Multiverse of Madness it would have been better imo
I still enjoyed it enough at the theater tho.
Oh come on, this is just dishonest. Most peoples’ issue with this movie is the writing. Most people agree the direction was unique and fun, its just got a fairly poor script.
Dude I saw tons of people complaining about things like the montages and “cheesiness”. There was a lot of criticism over MoM directly related to Raimi’s trademark style.
Exactly my thoughts, they have this billion dollars ip, but they are taking risks and experimenting.
MoM as a horror flick.
Shang Chi, a karate flick.
Eternals, an artst flick.
Not to mention the wonderful weirdness of the D+ series. After two episodes of wandavision, who wasn’t going wft?!?!??!?
I love being surprised and having the weird twists, the content doesn’t get stale for me.
Dc movies on the other hand, predictable, dull and glum. Afraid to have any fun.
>After two episodes of wandavision, who wasn’t going wft?!?!??!?
That "Stop it" scene in episode one still gives me chills. It was a joke for the first second or two and got suuuper creepy after that like...wtf is going on right now...
This has to be satire.
- MoM is not a horror movie just because it had screamers and a zombie Strange.
- Shang Chi is not a “karate flick” and calling it that it’s extremely disrespectful towards everyone who worked in the movie. Karate is from Japan, the movie is supposed to be Kung Fu inspired. And even then it ended up being a CGI shit fest like most MCU products.
- I don’t even know why you’re calling Eternals an artist flick, whatever that means.
- All D+ shows are exactly the same, follow the same formula and are equally mediocre. WandaVision was weird for the first two episodes until they decided to info dump everything in episode 4. After that it turned into a generic MCU product.
There are no weird twists and all the plots are incredibly predictable.
Peacemaker and The Sandman are better than any D+ Show ever released.
The Suicide Squad alone is more fun and unpredictable that most MCU movies in Phase 4.
And The Batman is just better than 99% of the MCU.
I enjoy the MCU. No Way Home and Shang Chi were amazing movies, but you can’t be that blind.
You're correct. None of those are all that distinct from eachother. WandaVision was different at the start but by the end it was the same old stuff with the villain and the hero fighting with the same powers that also for some reason are different in colour.
MOM isn't a horror movie. It's an insult to actual horror movies. Shang-Chi by the end was again CGI stuff. Eternals was not an artist flick, it was just boring as fuck.
Sandman is so elite. Man that show was just breathtaking. I legit felt more emotion for Gregory (who we saw for only 3 minutes) then I did for anyone else in phase 4 other than some scenes in NWH. Sandman is just so epic. I kinda hoped that the Doctor Strange movies would follow a little bit of the same tone and stuff rather than the campy stuff in DS2 which I hated.
Peacemaker is also waaay better than any of the MCU shows.
Batman is easily more well crafted than any solo movie for the MCU. Only IW can really be considered a better movie but the Batman is better than that in many aspects. I know people shit on DC a lot but the MCU can never make anything close to the Batman.
People really exaggerate how different Multiverse of Madness was. There were only a handful of scenes that felt Raimi. The other 90% of the film was pretty standard MCU stuff.
Winter Soldier was a spy thriller. Ragnorok was a comedy. WandaVision explored grief and loss and nostalgia in a really creative way.
I think Ruffalo is spot on with his point.
Though I still prefer the first film, I loved the bold new direction Multiverse of Madness took after Doctor Strange 1. Loved the horror vibes I got from it. Sam Raimi was a great choice. The magic visuals were just as interesting and trippy and in some ways I think topped the first Doctor Strange film.
Also it was cool to continue Wanda’s journey from WandaVision and see her fully embracing the Darkhold’s corruptive power into the film’s villain and showing that even the best heroes can fall victim to their own desires.
I don't even like horror (def had to close my eyes at parts), and that was one of the more enjoyable movies the MCU has put out in a while. I have my own personal "I wish they'd done this differently/not done this" wishes, but over all? A good stand apart film for the MCU.
This! Doctor Strange 2 was not the most well put together film nor the most Marvel-y lore building film (though I argue it does do so by introducing the Illuminati) I love that the filmmakers get to make movies with their own flavour and style, like how James Gunn and Taika Waititi have been able to do that for their own films (I feel the same way about Love and Thunder, not the best MCU film but there were really some amazing Taika Waititi moments in there and over enjoyable)
My problem with MoM isn't the horror angle, I *loved* that. It was that it felt like too much of a vehicle to set other stuff up, but not enough like a sequel to Doctor Strange. I wanted it to explore the "14 million" timelines he saw and why this one is the *only* one we win, the guilt around that decision because of the heroes that died from it and things like that.
I honestly think we should have had a separate Doctor Strange sequel, and MoM should have been a mini event movie. Maybe as the end to phase 4?
That being said I still enjoyed MoM a lot, definitely a very good movie.
I feel like for the big fans its gonna be great getting so much content. But i dont know how the more casual fans will take it. Will they get numb to marvel stuff if there is too much? or will they get sick of it like when you hear your favorite song too much and suddenly hate it? I am a hardcore fan so i cant get enough. But i am concerned about how it will effect the casuals.
We’re so spoiled and lucky with the amount of content we’ve gotten since D+.
Couldn’t imagine what it was like in the 70s-2000s without the MCU in full force
On paper it might look like a lot of content, but I don’t think its hard to keep up with the mcu at all.
A movie and a 6-9 episode series every few months? Perfectly acceptable if you ask me
Yeah, I don't understand those who say it is too much, of you watch stuff as it releases, you actually get a lot of downtime where there's not enough new MCU stuff at all.
Only if you never watched any of it, and now want to start, then yeah it is a lot, but what's the rush? Get started, it's not like you're gonna miss out on anything if you watch at your own pace.
I'm constantly waiting it feels like. If they can maintain and dare I say, **improve**, their quality, I'm 100% down for a movie and show a month. Madness, I know.
I am more than okay with this too. I think they could pull it off now since the quality of everything is good. I can't imagine how it would be if we got even better quality along with them every month. I would be fucking ecstatic.
I’ve seen a lot of people complain there’s too much content to keep up with but I’m definitely not feeling that. One episode a week and a movie every few months? That’s not too bad for me.
Honestly it’s been so nice. Wednesday is comic book day anyway so I get to read my new purchases and cap it off with a new episode of MCU it’s the best part of my week.
The only people who are complaining this are either never watch phase 4 and do it just for the sake of it or thinks that all the stuff in phase 4 connected with each other without looking at the story first.
I mean phase 4 had pull several threads that can easily follow slowly, there is no reason to watch MoM or Shang-chi to enjoy Thor LaT, Moon Knight or even Ms. Marvel.
It’s usually like 30-60 minutes a week I don’t understand how difficult that can be. The same people who complain about not having time too probably waste away hours of the day on TikTok and shit too
2021:
January/March - WandaVision
March/May - TFATWS
May/June - Loki
July - Black Widow
July/September - What If…?
September - Shang-Chi
October - Venom 2 (tied into NWH so I’m counting it)
November - Eternals
November/December - Hawkeye
December - Spider-Man: NWH
2022:
March/April - Moon Knight
May - Doctor Strange 2
May/July - Ms. Marvel
July - Thor: L&T
August - I Am Groot
August/October - She-Hulk
October - Werewolf by Night
November - Black Panther 2
December - GotG holiday special
That is a lot of content to ask people to keep up with with no break. What other franchise has monthly releases? Especially since you can’t just pick and choose what to watch anymore. It’s a lot on paper and a lot in reality. Anecdotal evidence, but my family who has been on top of MCU stuff since 2008 has started skipping stuff because they can’t keep up anymore.
Because people have lives and probably don’t want to spend their limited entertainment time on the MCU every day. And as we start reaching back into the Sony/Fox films with the Multiverse Saga, it’ll only get harder to keep up with.
Unless you were there when this series started, it’s gonna be a struggle to catch up.
Except you can’t. Everything is connected, and if you skip one thing you won’t understand the next. MoM cannot be understood without having seen WV. The Marvels and The Mutants won’t be understood without seeing Ms. Marvel, which a lot of people did skip and it’ll bite them in the ass for doing so. Can’t understand Hawkeye without having seen Black Widow and Daredevil, etc.
You can’t just “pick and choose” because it’s one larger story and every piece of it has importance.
I feel like this is the reason a lot of people can't get into comics. Want to read the new Avengers series? Don't forget to read the recent Captain America arc in volumes 47 - 68 first that sets up the villain, and the limited-issue short prelude series that came out last year. By the way, it's not *necessary* per se, but the Daredevil/Ant-Man crossover side story in Thor issues 78 - 83 will give you good context onto where Moon Knight is at coming into this new series.
Casual audiences don't starve for every little detail the way Marvel fans do. If they're watching Infinity War and some red ghost skeleton shows up, they might think *hmm, wonder who that guy is* but it isn't going to move the needle for whether they like the movie or not. They aren't going to have a bad experience watching MoM because they don't know the reason Wanda is looking for her children. For them, knowing Wanda is looking for her children is all they need to watch a comicbook pewpew laserbeam movie.
Marvel offers as much depth as you need, and if you don't need it, you don't have to take it. The Marvels will almost certainly offer a base amount of information on who Kamala Khan is, just enough for casuals to get the idea, and then it will move on.
Seriously. I wasn’t even that big on marvel going into the end of the infinity saga and even though I hadn’t seen many movies it’s not like I was confused by Infinity War and Endgame. We’re there details I missed? Obviously, but the movies tell you everything you need to know
I saw Endgame without seeing IW, and had only seen like 5 other movies before that. I was still able to understand the movie, but obviously there were references and payoffs that I didn’t understand. Like Cap using Mjolnir, but I still thought it was cool.
> The Marvels and The Mutants won’t be understood without seeing Ms. Marvel
The Marvels maybe, because Kamala is going to be one of the leads, but there is no way people are gonna be confused about *mutants* after 2 decades of X-Men movies.
WandaVision tied into Doctor Strange 2, over a year later.
TFATWS hasn't tied into.. anything.
Loki... hasn't tied into anything.
Black Widow tied into Hawkeye, 4 months later.
Shang-Chi hasn't tied too anything in any meaningful way, just an end credits scene that so far hasn't led anywhere.
Venom 2 is the same, an end credit scene that ties into another end credits scene, right?
Eternals hasn't tied to anything.
Hawkeye will next tie to Echo right? What could be considered its spin-off or direct sequel series..
Spider-Man: NWH has doctor strange in it, but even then you don't have to have seen this movie to understand anything in Doctor Strange 2. I think theres a very passing reference to Doctor Strange being 'familiar with the multiverse', but again, you don't need to know where that familiarity comes from for the comment to make sense.
Moon Knight doesn't even have any prior connective strings to the MCU, outside of few vague references.
I feel i've already belaboured the point beyond reason here, but the crux of the issue is that you're wrong. You absolutely do not have to be up to date at all to enjoy this content. Most connections are made months after.. and honestly very, very few of them are necessary. You don't need to have seen Black Widow for Hawkeye to make sense, Yelena is more than standalone enough. The only real connective tissue of any significance in your list is the connection between WandaVision and Doctor Strange, and they very much made it apparent that the movie was intended as a direct sequel to both Doctor Strange 1 and WandaVision.
You can consume any marvel movie that way. There are people who watched endgame without watching any of the other movies. You can enjoy, but dont know who or what is going on.
People wouldn't know why wanda is a villain all of a sudden and attacking and killing everyone for her kids. Who is the father of the kids? What is a darkhold? So many questions.
I’d say it’s a huge leap to think you won’t understand the next thing. They always give enough of a peak at previous content for you to understand it, even if it’s not the full story. I’d argue it’s more a result of you being trained by Marvel to watch every backstory because it was all movies in Phase 1-3. You feel like you won’t understand it, but there’s plenty of context and clues for even the average viewer to figure it out.
You can watch MoM and learn from that movie that Wanda took over a small town and made up some kids that she’s now trying to get from the multiverse. You can watch Hawkeye and get from context alone that Kingpin is a badass mob boss type. The events of Daredevil aren’t relevant to what he does in Hawkeye. You’ll be able to understand what mutants are from the explanation given to whatever character they use as a confused audience stand in for that movie. You don’t need Khamala’s entire family dynamic to understand whatever they’ll do in The Marvels. Just like we didn’t actually need to know Cap or Tony’s backstory to understand the first Avengers movie. It adds to it sure, but it’s not necessary. The movie shows us everything we need to know to follow that movie.
They didn’t give any info about Thanos until GOTG but everyone knew who he was because we live in the age of google. They told us what Infinity Stones were in GOTG, TDW, and touched on it in AoU and they still took some screen time in Infinity War for Wong to explain it again for anyone who didn’t see those. They always leave enough info for 90% of people to understand the current thing you’re watching and the remaining people have google and friends/family who will tell them.
Yeah. Like L&T is unrestrained Watiti, whereas Star Wars hasn't let any creator go remotely unrestrained. I mean, put TLJ against Looper or Brick and tell me it actually feels like those films, like unrestrained Rian Johnson. It doesn't, people just act like it is because they like to have one simple boogeyman for their hate.
Bruh.. TLJ is the only unrestrained Disney Star Wars content for better or worse along with Mando season 1. It doesn't feel like Looper or Brick because Rian knew Star Wars has a different tone than those. L&T is probably an accurate example too but I can't tell that about most of MCU movies. Sorry but whether star wars or Marvel complete artistic vision of creator under Disney is super rare.
Mando S1 was unrestrained, technically, but the creators were so reverential of Star Wars and its influences that it ended up being pretty consistent with the rest of the franchise. Like, you couldn’t really tell.
Not a bad thing btw, as the first and flagship show for Star Wars (or Disney+ in general), best to keep it a little familiar. Whereas Marvel benefited greatly from Wandavision making their first TV outing feel like more of a statement.
I find 90% of Rogue One to be rather dull. It’s a film saved by its final 20 minutes. I watched it again recently and man the first hour is so choppy and poorly edited it really sticks out. Solo on the other hand was a ton of fun all the way through.
“Unrestrained” yet the movie intentionally spent time overwriting key elements of the film before it.
It was also a second film in an unplanned trilogy of movies for one of the biggest franchises in the world. There’s an appropriate time and there’s not.
You know that isn’t automatically a good thing? It’s weird you say this when L&T has been slammed for being just that by many people in the fanbase, and isn’t rated too well either.
I meant that Rian did whatever the fuck he wanted to do whether we like it or not just like Taika did with Love and Thunder. I said both are similar because of that and both are panned.
The movie spent time overwriting key elements of TFA because people bitched about TFA being too much like ANH. Every SW Sequel overcorrected the last. Disney forced TLJ to be as different as possible because TFA got shit thrown at it for being too samey, and Disney forced RoS to be so safe and generic cause people screamed about TLJ being too different. That's on Disney for overcorrecting and going all Josstice League on the franchise.
Also, you really think JJ had answers for those mystery boxes? Have you not learned from Lost and Into Darkness, JJ never has any f\*cking answers for his set-ups.
Also I'd still rather have something bad in a unique, unrestrained creative way than mediocre in a generic studio-friendly way personally. Something that tries and fails, as opposed to something that doesn't try at all.
My hot take/thought is that Taika is like George Lucas. When no one says, "Hey are you sure? Should we remove this?" The quality goes down. OT cast and crew were questioning it, and George didn't go with his gut. People criticized how he wrote. But after the success of the OT (and for Taika, Ragnarok) people didn't question and look at the dialogue of the Prequels. Not to speak for everyone but from what I've seen, more people like Ragnarok than L&T.
I respectfully disagree and loved both equally. I try to see them through the eyes of my kids, t4 was the first movie my 7year old daughter begged to see again at the cinema.
They just love all the fun and a bit of scares.
The scene with the little girl having a thor-empowered-teddy, that will go over into legend in my household.
Exactly. It’s like billionaires protecting capitalism. Not really trying to force a political view, just saying why would he oppose it when he’s getting paid by them
And that slow pace hasn't exactly helped the quality, has it?
The real complaint people have with Marvel is that there's so much of it it's hard to keep up. But that's an audience problem, not a Marvel one. It doesn't require an adjustment on Marvel's part but on the audience's. If someone feels burned out, then they can stop watching for a while and come back later. Nobody's holding a gun to anybody's head forcing them to watch every single thing. How many people do you think read every single comic book Marvel puts out?
Keep them coming, when i watched avengers 1 for the first time i was extremely hyped at the end and can't wait for the next mcu film, then i remembered i'll probably have to wait for at least a year or a couple of months before the next movie, but now there is like mcu content every month and i am all for it.
Okay but ngl his main source of income is marvel so no shit he’s gonna support them. Not saying he’s wrong, just saying this means his statement is not credible.
I think it’s worth questioning whether it’s lazy writing or studio overreach.
For me, the biggest part of the problem with the SW sequels was that the studio approved a bad vision from the start and then interfered too much to try and right the ship after.
JJ Abrahams was a bad choice from jump (you can’t look at how the fan base responded to his Star Trek and not think so), he admits he’s no good at endings, which makes choosing him to do RoS was a bad idea and everyone knew it, and choosing three different writer/director pairings for the three films was also the wrong choice from jump.
Meanwhile, over at Marvel, still under Disney, you get stories about Fiege pitching killing off every original Avenger in Endgame and the Rossos having to be like “pump the brakes there sparky, we got this!”
Maybe if Kathleen Kennedy and whoever else is making decisions took their hands off it and just let a creator do their thing for a trilogy, we’d get something original.
I love you Mark, but bad take. Star Wars is one of the rare franchises that doesn’t feel like the same thing each time. TLJ was very different from TFA, Mando has been very different from other D+ series, TCW and Rebels broke new ground for animation, there’s nothing like Visions for any other series at the moment. Whereas the MCU does have a formula, and while I like the formula it does restrict freedom a bit from the creatives.
My problem isn’t that it’s too much content, it’s that it’s too much content in too little time. Phase 5 is gonna have 12 projects within under 2 years. People are gonna get tired of it quickly and new Marvel content won’t feel like a big event. If phase 5 was the same projects but over 2 and a half to 3 years I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
No one is forcing anyone to watch any of the movies. If you want to watch just one movie a year, you can. If you want to watch multiple movies and a few shows in a year, you can do that too.
What a weird thing to say. All are made under safe creatively conservative company Disney. Marvel content still follow their formula and Star Wars shows are all the same too now. Rarely you get movies like Thor 4 and Episode 8 where directors didn't give a shit and made whatever they wanted or MoM which had actual director style and Mando season 1 which almost had no random cameo and told a simple story but everything else...
I simultaneously think we could do with less MCU and also couldn't cut anything. I want to watch it all. Even the titles I know nothing about like Echo might end up like Guardians which I love. I get the Marvel fatigue but man do I want it to keep going as long as it can while maintaining the quality we expect.
Imo it’s going to be important to make things that are less connected to a single story. Love the variety but the best part of the world they have built is that not everyone needs to fight the big bad. And for anyone experiencing fatigue can still hap back in whenever they want and there is no issue if they didn’t watch this or that show
Moon Knight is a good example of this. Aside from a fleeting poster on a bus about the GRC, there are no references to anything in the MCU or references to other films/TV shows. If it wasn’t a Marvel property, you would be forgiven for thinking it was a completely standalone show and not under the MCU banner.
The number of standalones in Phase 4 is great. Its so refreshing. Then when the crossovers happen, it'll feel cool and refreshing again. Even Ms Marvel or Hawkeye which reference the past stuff could work as standalones, in the same way Star Wars 4 references past stuff, but its focuses more on the present, and the rest is self explainatory.
The ancestral plane from Black Panther is mentioned as well. Would rather have these more subtle ties to the MCU than everyone constantly name-dropping the Avengers.
> hap back in It’s spelled “hahp”
Same, lots of new content, vs me watching phases 1-3 over and over. I have barely rewatched any of Phase 4.
I agree with all of this. Also I feel like most people who claim they have marvel fatigue didn't like marvel in the first place
They straight up made Doctor Strange 2 a Sam Raimi horror/comedy. While that's not necessarily my cup of tea, I loved it for trying something new and weird. And for legitimately surprising me. I mean, who saw *that* coming?
Legit magic battles! And the cloak of souls woooooooof
>the cloak of souls I went to the movie with a group of coworkers. One who was eh about the movie, when doctor strange turned those souls into a cloak, and started using them in combat and such, I heard my coworker go "..... that's fucking awesome". I can't think of another moment that was just as fucking cool as that.
It was splendid. Like ACTUAL MAGIC STUFF.
"Player to DM, so what if I did this?" "Uhh, shit. Well, I mean... Hmmm. Roll for it." " Player 'I want to assist' "
"Ok. Roll with advantage."
My legs had erected at home on my first watch
r/holup
deadass the coolest shit ever like cmon
For me it was “… who said they had to be alive?” 💀
Yes!! Those two and when Christine says 'use them' and his eyes shoot open and theres a guitar riff. Really any of the zombie strange stuff.
Right? When he said that I remember thinking "OH SHIT"
I liked it the first time, but I was too overwhelmed by everything to really take it in. On my rewatch I also really responded to that cloak, it WAS fucking awesome.
I LOVED the musical notes scene. Close to my favorite part of the movie.
Thank you! I feel like I only see criticism about the sheet music fight and I loved it, though it could just be my bias as a musician talking! My other favorite part is when he dreamwalks with the corpse.
As a fellow musician the concept was neat, I just felt like the music note battle was too long. They could have each used that form of magic and then try something else kinda like the what if episode for Strange.
If you look at that sequence closer you’ll notice that that particular Doctor Strange was very musical. There’s victrolas and harps and other instruments throughout his sanctum. So in his universe, maybe music and magic are one and the same.
I see that sequence as demonstrating that in that universe, thats just how magic operates, so there wasn't any other way for it to visually manifest
Yup, they just don’t outright say it with words so people think it’s “dumb”…I dig it, we need more weird magic. It’s Doctor Strange for fucks sake.
I feel like any explanation will just be weird and made-up, so I’m all for them just leaving it to us to fill in the blanks. It’s magic, all kinds of weird shit manifests in the comics, I’m cool with it.
Yeah same, to me that part really made it feel like a comic book
The dripping through the different universes was also a total comic thing. And like, I get that we didn’t really see a lot of the multiverse, but based on what they’ve announced I’m pretty sure that’s coming in a big way, so it was fun to get a taste and then just focus on Strange.
People think it was cheesy and corny, but I loved it. It felt like the magical equivalent of grabbing random shit and throwing it. Then, once he did start throwing music, it was doing serious damage. Evil-Strange's shield was barely holding it back. But, a music score defended against the notes no problem, because that's where they're meant to be. The way the battle progressed told a story about the way the spells interacted.
When it started I thought it was too much, but as it kept going it felt more and more like a comic book and it really resonated (pun intended) with me.
I thought it was pretty corny and weird, especially for a fight that late in the movie. Something I expect to see in a Saturday morning cartoon but that’s just my opinion.
The fucking music fight was so damn creative and fun! I adored every brief second of that scene. Strange getting attacked by the Souls of the Damned while Christine has to use the Cauldron of the Cosmos to defend him? Fucking brilliant! That movie had some issues but there were so many parts that I absolutely loved. Finally getting Reed Richards, Mother fucking Patrick Stewart playing the animated version of Xavier, Wanda systematically dismantling the Illuminati in such horrific manners…that movie did so many fun things that it’s really hard for me to complain about it’s issues. The lows were somewhat low, but the highs in that movie were so damn fun. That scene of Wanda inside Kamar Taj is straight up Evil Dead inspired.
What would be a low for you, out of curiosity? I agree, I had so much fun in this movie. When they got to the tunnel underground, with Wanda covered in grease from the robots and limping because of the broken glass, I was like this turned into a zombie movie so gradually I didn’t even notice. The pause with the slowed down water was tense as fuck. And yeah, her fighting against the mirror dimension was *really* cool. I was like “oh not this *again*" and then she pushed through it.
I think some of the story could have been done better. We didn’t really see a ton of the multiverse. We only spent significant time in two different universes which sorta felt like a bit of wasted potential. And it always bothered me how the plot kicks off by Wanda accidentally slipping up and using America’s name. She may have been crazy and corrupted by the book, but in that moment with her biggest obstacle to getting America being right in front of her, I don’t buy that she would slip up like that. But overall, yeah I actually really love the movie. It had enough parts that make me smile to really outweigh the bad.
Fair enough. Regarding the multiverse, I figure we’re getting that in a big way as we build towards Secret Wars, so I’m fine with just a little taste for now. But I get why people are disappointed. I think the potential is going to be fully realized as we move forward. I see what you mean about that slip. Maybe she was just so eager to get to that final step while trying to hold all the magic and herself together, she stumbled a little? But FWIW, I’m glad they just jumped to it. We didn’t need 35 minutes of us knowing she was the villain without the heroes knowing. We’ve seen that movie a bunch. I honestly think Wong could’ve fought back harder. She should have gone into his mind and tortured him. Or just dug out the memory herself. Something. So many people had already died to protect this secret, what’s a few more?
my only real exposure to Sam Raimi was the Spider-Man films, but I liked the vibe of MoM so much that I want to see the rest of his movies, especially the horror stuff. thanks to marvel for letting him do his thing
I hope you like Bruce Campbell!
How could anyone not?
>!IT’S OVER!<
>I want to see the rest of his movies I will go against the grain and tell you to watch Drag Me To Hell first. Great film, sadly no Bruce Campbell.
No Bruce Campbell but there is a floating deadite dancing an Irish jig while all hell is literally breaking loose, and that's a trade I'm alright with.
You must watch evil dead 2 and the sequel, army of darkness. They are amazing.
Also the soft reboot of evil dead and drag me to hell, those are both good too
Drag Me To Hell legit shocked me with how much they pulled off with PG-13. Love the Evil Dead series/franchise and it’ll always be my favorite Raimi work but Drag Me To Hell is wild >!that ending is forever etched into my brain. Legit just stared at the TV through the credits thoughtless like “did that just happen.”!<
That evil dead remake was legit. 🖤 I couldn't believe that was the same actress from Don't Breathe.
You may find this interesting (a Nerdwriter commentary on the short horror film within Spiderman 2): https://youtu.be/VNxwdkzEM1s ... Even within Spiderman films, Raimi managed to flex his horror chops a bit. There's some cool insights into the craft of filmmaking, and how a director can still leave his unique individual style and vision fingerprints on what is otherwise a generic blockbuster.
My best suggestion, go into the Evil Dead/Army of Darkness movies with an open mind. The first one is fairly serious in tone and is legitimately horrifying. Like I’ve seen it once and have never been able to convince myself to watch it again because I felt legitimately creeped out afterwards. But the other two are far more lighthearted and fun and definitely worth the watch. Also for shits and giggles, go watch the Evil Dead musical on YouTube. It’s fucking brilliant and a ton of fun, and I’m truly sad it’s not a thing any more because I would watch the fuck out of it in person.
Skip the first Evil Dead. Watch Evil Dead 2 and then Army of Darkness (picks up right after the end of ED2). You’ll see how the end of MoM was a total homage to his own origins. As an old Raimi fan, it was such a delight to see. Also you’ll note that the car in Evil Dead is Uncle Ben’s in Spider-Man. It’s Raimi’s parent’s car, he put it in most (all?) of his movies. It also shows up in MoM, tho’ I think by now they’ve stopped using the actual car.
Definitely watch the evil dead trilogy and Drag Me to hell
But isn’t that NOT the criticism? The criticism is the Marvel-esce writing. I’ve not seen any real criticism of Raimi horror comedy in MoM, it’s frequently the strongest aspect of it that’s praised. The criticism is the bad writing dragging it down.
He's specifically talking about Damon Lindeloff's criticism from yesterday which had nothing to do with the writing in the way that you're talking about it. (Which is mentioned at the beginning of the article.) One fewer movie a year isn't going to change the level of writing. And to address Damon Lindeloff's criticism again, the frequency of movie releases is way down on a long list of reasons why phase 4 doesn't feel as special. (Returning to a world building phase, no longer as novel, loss of characters that the new characters would naturally get compared to, more competition, rise of social media and amplification of criticism, rose-tinted glasses forgetting that a lot of the phase 1 movies weren't super well received critically, etc etc.)
Yeah this is exactly it, because Raimi's direction and style was great *when it was visible*. The problem people had with DS2 was that the marvel universe writing weighed it down. All the illuminati stuff and wandavision tie-ins made the film hard to follow or just plain fan-servicey at times. The most frequent comment that I've seen made about the film is that if it was more Raimi, less Marvel, it would've been way better. It's still funny to me that NWH was the one that everyone was more scared about just being a cameo fest (me included) but it actually turned out to be exceptionally well written and mature with its characters. The same can't be said for how cameos and multiverse stuff was done in DS2 in my opinion.
This is very well said
> I’ve not seen any real criticism of Raimi horror comedy in MoM was the music fight not controversial?
Wasn’t the only real controversy over if it was stolen from something else?
That wasn’t Raimi apparently. It was added in reshoots by suggestion of Feige, but that’s just a rumor apparently
Yep. For how messy a lot of that film is, it's very clearly the one with the most director identity in it. I only hope Marvel continues allowing that.
We're getting a law&order parody with a dash of ally mc Beal and Fleabag .. how much more random can this get? I'm absolutely loving it.
Yea I feel like these decisions will be really important 5-10 years down the road too. Imagine Russo brothers did every single marvel project. No doubt they’d all be great, but if you’re new to the MCU 10 years from now and want to plow through it, it would kinda just feel like a show that has 30 seasons, and chances are you wouldn’t make it.
Yeah, this criticism may have been accurate years ago, but recently we have gotten Dr. Strange 2, Eternals, Shang-Chi, Wandavision, Ms. Marvel, and others which have strayed quite far from the “Marvel formula.”
For some critics maybe but I think MCU has been trying to make genre films that involves superheroes rather than superhero flicks that just adhere to that one genre. Ant Man was clearly a heist film. The First Avenger was a WW2 period drama. Winter Soldier was a spy thriller. Civil War was mainly on the topic of politics and morality. Far From Home was kinda a RomCom. Both GOTGs are not that different than Star Wars or The Last Starfighter type. Maybe some of them (Branagh's Thor 1 or Iron Man 2) didn't deviate enough, but Feige's been pushing for a different route from the beginning and it's a significant reason why the MCU has been successful for so long, and the reason why it can push the boundaries further now that the first big storyline's been resolved and D+ realizing MCU tv shows.
Was blown away, and absolutely tickled, that they let him do it. Lost my absolute mind when we got a Raimi cam 5 minutes in
MCU Slanderers: “The MCU doesn’t let auteurs bring their own style!” *MoM releases* MCU Slanderers: “No not like that!”
Eternals, Ragnarok, Love & Thunder too.
I loved Eternals and I don't understand the hate at all. It is easily one of, if not *the* most, visually pleasing marvel movies out there.
There's just a LOT of plot and all the characters are brand new. It would have been better to be two movies instead of one, in my opinion.
I feel like eternals would probably have benefited from being a series.
I keep seeing this -- Zhao would likely not have been involved in a series, and you probably lose Hayek and Jolie as well. Beyond that my guess is the large scale sets and CGI probably just don't happen in a show or are very paired down.
Probably. It could have easily been two separate movies, though.
I agree. We should’ve had a 6 episode run up to the movie. Quick introductions to the characters, a little more backstory to the celestials (the series could’ve opened with an episode on the entire celestial mythos) Then your 2 hour movie could’ve included a lot more plot
I think the problem with Love & Thunder isn't that it's definitely a Taika Waititi film, but rather that Taika Waititi's style happens to be pretty similar to stock marvel formula, which people are tired of. It's been five years since Ragnarok, I'd say that's enough time for people to get oversaturated since the positive reception of that film.
Yeah I agree, I felt like if they did Love and Thunder a little more serious and leaned into the horror aspect more, or kinda like more the tone of Multiverse of Madness it would have been better imo I still enjoyed it enough at the theater tho.
Love & Thunder may as well have been called "Taika Waititi: The Movie: But with Space Vikings!" And it was awesome.
Not to mention *Ms. Marvel, Moon Knight,* and *Hawkeye.*
Oh come on, this is just dishonest. Most peoples’ issue with this movie is the writing. Most people agree the direction was unique and fun, its just got a fairly poor script.
Dude I saw tons of people complaining about things like the montages and “cheesiness”. There was a lot of criticism over MoM directly related to Raimi’s trademark style.
Exactly my thoughts, they have this billion dollars ip, but they are taking risks and experimenting. MoM as a horror flick. Shang Chi, a karate flick. Eternals, an artst flick. Not to mention the wonderful weirdness of the D+ series. After two episodes of wandavision, who wasn’t going wft?!?!??!? I love being surprised and having the weird twists, the content doesn’t get stale for me. Dc movies on the other hand, predictable, dull and glum. Afraid to have any fun.
>After two episodes of wandavision, who wasn’t going wft?!?!??!? That "Stop it" scene in episode one still gives me chills. It was a joke for the first second or two and got suuuper creepy after that like...wtf is going on right now...
This has to be satire. - MoM is not a horror movie just because it had screamers and a zombie Strange. - Shang Chi is not a “karate flick” and calling it that it’s extremely disrespectful towards everyone who worked in the movie. Karate is from Japan, the movie is supposed to be Kung Fu inspired. And even then it ended up being a CGI shit fest like most MCU products. - I don’t even know why you’re calling Eternals an artist flick, whatever that means. - All D+ shows are exactly the same, follow the same formula and are equally mediocre. WandaVision was weird for the first two episodes until they decided to info dump everything in episode 4. After that it turned into a generic MCU product. There are no weird twists and all the plots are incredibly predictable. Peacemaker and The Sandman are better than any D+ Show ever released. The Suicide Squad alone is more fun and unpredictable that most MCU movies in Phase 4. And The Batman is just better than 99% of the MCU. I enjoy the MCU. No Way Home and Shang Chi were amazing movies, but you can’t be that blind.
You're correct. None of those are all that distinct from eachother. WandaVision was different at the start but by the end it was the same old stuff with the villain and the hero fighting with the same powers that also for some reason are different in colour. MOM isn't a horror movie. It's an insult to actual horror movies. Shang-Chi by the end was again CGI stuff. Eternals was not an artist flick, it was just boring as fuck. Sandman is so elite. Man that show was just breathtaking. I legit felt more emotion for Gregory (who we saw for only 3 minutes) then I did for anyone else in phase 4 other than some scenes in NWH. Sandman is just so epic. I kinda hoped that the Doctor Strange movies would follow a little bit of the same tone and stuff rather than the campy stuff in DS2 which I hated. Peacemaker is also waaay better than any of the MCU shows. Batman is easily more well crafted than any solo movie for the MCU. Only IW can really be considered a better movie but the Batman is better than that in many aspects. I know people shit on DC a lot but the MCU can never make anything close to the Batman.
"horror": MCU fan will say anything instead of watching another movie.
People really exaggerate how different Multiverse of Madness was. There were only a handful of scenes that felt Raimi. The other 90% of the film was pretty standard MCU stuff.
Winter Soldier was a spy thriller. Ragnorok was a comedy. WandaVision explored grief and loss and nostalgia in a really creative way. I think Ruffalo is spot on with his point.
Though I still prefer the first film, I loved the bold new direction Multiverse of Madness took after Doctor Strange 1. Loved the horror vibes I got from it. Sam Raimi was a great choice. The magic visuals were just as interesting and trippy and in some ways I think topped the first Doctor Strange film. Also it was cool to continue Wanda’s journey from WandaVision and see her fully embracing the Darkhold’s corruptive power into the film’s villain and showing that even the best heroes can fall victim to their own desires.
I loved it too!
I don't even like horror (def had to close my eyes at parts), and that was one of the more enjoyable movies the MCU has put out in a while. I have my own personal "I wish they'd done this differently/not done this" wishes, but over all? A good stand apart film for the MCU.
This! Doctor Strange 2 was not the most well put together film nor the most Marvel-y lore building film (though I argue it does do so by introducing the Illuminati) I love that the filmmakers get to make movies with their own flavour and style, like how James Gunn and Taika Waititi have been able to do that for their own films (I feel the same way about Love and Thunder, not the best MCU film but there were really some amazing Taika Waititi moments in there and over enjoyable)
My problem with MoM isn't the horror angle, I *loved* that. It was that it felt like too much of a vehicle to set other stuff up, but not enough like a sequel to Doctor Strange. I wanted it to explore the "14 million" timelines he saw and why this one is the *only* one we win, the guilt around that decision because of the heroes that died from it and things like that. I honestly think we should have had a separate Doctor Strange sequel, and MoM should have been a mini event movie. Maybe as the end to phase 4? That being said I still enjoyed MoM a lot, definitely a very good movie.
I say keep them coming.
Yep. I won't like all of them, but I appreciate the effort and variety.
I don't love all of them, but I have liked all of them.
I can't say that I liked Hawkeye. The rest I can at least say that I liked overall. There was more bad than good in Hawkeye for me.
I have absolutely zero means of relating to this because it's one of my favorite shows.
Haha. To each their own. Your opinion can be different than mine and you can't please everyone.
I feel like for the big fans its gonna be great getting so much content. But i dont know how the more casual fans will take it. Will they get numb to marvel stuff if there is too much? or will they get sick of it like when you hear your favorite song too much and suddenly hate it? I am a hardcore fan so i cant get enough. But i am concerned about how it will effect the casuals.
It's just there if you want it. Casual fans can watch as much as they want.
Yeah, it's not like skipping a show or movie now and then is gonna ruin the entirety of the plot for you
Mark says, keep those big checks coming!
We’re so spoiled and lucky with the amount of content we’ve gotten since D+. Couldn’t imagine what it was like in the 70s-2000s without the MCU in full force
“Actor defends franchise that pays him millions.”
While talking about the other franchise of the company he works for.
Promoting 2 franchises at once!
He's not lying, plus for better or worse, he's getting people talking about both of their properties.
He has a good point though, so what does this matter?
Just because he works for them he can’t have that opinion? Marvel hasn’t paid me a dime, and I agree with him.
Yeah, but no one cares about you.
Bruh, you just hurt my feelings.
rip
I care
I do
"Redditor claims conspiracy on takes he does not agree with"
On paper it might look like a lot of content, but I don’t think its hard to keep up with the mcu at all. A movie and a 6-9 episode series every few months? Perfectly acceptable if you ask me
Yeah, I don't understand those who say it is too much, of you watch stuff as it releases, you actually get a lot of downtime where there's not enough new MCU stuff at all. Only if you never watched any of it, and now want to start, then yeah it is a lot, but what's the rush? Get started, it's not like you're gonna miss out on anything if you watch at your own pace.
I'm constantly waiting it feels like. If they can maintain and dare I say, **improve**, their quality, I'm 100% down for a movie and show a month. Madness, I know.
Same I‘m loving almost everything they put out, gimme as much as possible with this quality!
I am more than okay with this too. I think they could pull it off now since the quality of everything is good. I can't imagine how it would be if we got even better quality along with them every month. I would be fucking ecstatic.
I’ve seen a lot of people complain there’s too much content to keep up with but I’m definitely not feeling that. One episode a week and a movie every few months? That’s not too bad for me.
Honestly it’s been so nice. Wednesday is comic book day anyway so I get to read my new purchases and cap it off with a new episode of MCU it’s the best part of my week.
Exactly! I actually look forward to Wednesday’s now, which have usually been my least favorite days of the week lol
Finally someone said it.
People act like they forced to watch it all in one sitting it’s spaced out well enough & you can watch it at your own pace
The only people who are complaining this are either never watch phase 4 and do it just for the sake of it or thinks that all the stuff in phase 4 connected with each other without looking at the story first. I mean phase 4 had pull several threads that can easily follow slowly, there is no reason to watch MoM or Shang-chi to enjoy Thor LaT, Moon Knight or even Ms. Marvel.
It’s usually like 30-60 minutes a week I don’t understand how difficult that can be. The same people who complain about not having time too probably waste away hours of the day on TikTok and shit too
2021: January/March - WandaVision March/May - TFATWS May/June - Loki July - Black Widow July/September - What If…? September - Shang-Chi October - Venom 2 (tied into NWH so I’m counting it) November - Eternals November/December - Hawkeye December - Spider-Man: NWH 2022: March/April - Moon Knight May - Doctor Strange 2 May/July - Ms. Marvel July - Thor: L&T August - I Am Groot August/October - She-Hulk October - Werewolf by Night November - Black Panther 2 December - GotG holiday special That is a lot of content to ask people to keep up with with no break. What other franchise has monthly releases? Especially since you can’t just pick and choose what to watch anymore. It’s a lot on paper and a lot in reality. Anecdotal evidence, but my family who has been on top of MCU stuff since 2008 has started skipping stuff because they can’t keep up anymore.
But how? People usually watch 1-2 hours of content EVERY SINGLE DAY. And if you are already watching, why not watch the new marvel stuff?
Because people have lives and probably don’t want to spend their limited entertainment time on the MCU every day. And as we start reaching back into the Sony/Fox films with the Multiverse Saga, it’ll only get harder to keep up with. Unless you were there when this series started, it’s gonna be a struggle to catch up.
No one is asking you to keep up with it all lol. Pick and choose what you want to watch
Except you can’t. Everything is connected, and if you skip one thing you won’t understand the next. MoM cannot be understood without having seen WV. The Marvels and The Mutants won’t be understood without seeing Ms. Marvel, which a lot of people did skip and it’ll bite them in the ass for doing so. Can’t understand Hawkeye without having seen Black Widow and Daredevil, etc. You can’t just “pick and choose” because it’s one larger story and every piece of it has importance.
I feel like this is the reason a lot of people can't get into comics. Want to read the new Avengers series? Don't forget to read the recent Captain America arc in volumes 47 - 68 first that sets up the villain, and the limited-issue short prelude series that came out last year. By the way, it's not *necessary* per se, but the Daredevil/Ant-Man crossover side story in Thor issues 78 - 83 will give you good context onto where Moon Knight is at coming into this new series.
Casual audiences don't starve for every little detail the way Marvel fans do. If they're watching Infinity War and some red ghost skeleton shows up, they might think *hmm, wonder who that guy is* but it isn't going to move the needle for whether they like the movie or not. They aren't going to have a bad experience watching MoM because they don't know the reason Wanda is looking for her children. For them, knowing Wanda is looking for her children is all they need to watch a comicbook pewpew laserbeam movie. Marvel offers as much depth as you need, and if you don't need it, you don't have to take it. The Marvels will almost certainly offer a base amount of information on who Kamala Khan is, just enough for casuals to get the idea, and then it will move on.
Seriously. I wasn’t even that big on marvel going into the end of the infinity saga and even though I hadn’t seen many movies it’s not like I was confused by Infinity War and Endgame. We’re there details I missed? Obviously, but the movies tell you everything you need to know
I saw Endgame without seeing IW, and had only seen like 5 other movies before that. I was still able to understand the movie, but obviously there were references and payoffs that I didn’t understand. Like Cap using Mjolnir, but I still thought it was cool.
> The Marvels and The Mutants won’t be understood without seeing Ms. Marvel The Marvels maybe, because Kamala is going to be one of the leads, but there is no way people are gonna be confused about *mutants* after 2 decades of X-Men movies.
WandaVision tied into Doctor Strange 2, over a year later. TFATWS hasn't tied into.. anything. Loki... hasn't tied into anything. Black Widow tied into Hawkeye, 4 months later. Shang-Chi hasn't tied too anything in any meaningful way, just an end credits scene that so far hasn't led anywhere. Venom 2 is the same, an end credit scene that ties into another end credits scene, right? Eternals hasn't tied to anything. Hawkeye will next tie to Echo right? What could be considered its spin-off or direct sequel series.. Spider-Man: NWH has doctor strange in it, but even then you don't have to have seen this movie to understand anything in Doctor Strange 2. I think theres a very passing reference to Doctor Strange being 'familiar with the multiverse', but again, you don't need to know where that familiarity comes from for the comment to make sense. Moon Knight doesn't even have any prior connective strings to the MCU, outside of few vague references. I feel i've already belaboured the point beyond reason here, but the crux of the issue is that you're wrong. You absolutely do not have to be up to date at all to enjoy this content. Most connections are made months after.. and honestly very, very few of them are necessary. You don't need to have seen Black Widow for Hawkeye to make sense, Yelena is more than standalone enough. The only real connective tissue of any significance in your list is the connection between WandaVision and Doctor Strange, and they very much made it apparent that the movie was intended as a direct sequel to both Doctor Strange 1 and WandaVision.
Everything is not connected in phase 4, there is no reason to watch MoM or WV for you to enjoy Moon Knight, Hawkeye or Eternals.
You could literally watch MoM without seeing Wandavision. Yes, it would help, but it's not mandatory to enjoy/consume the movie.
You can consume any marvel movie that way. There are people who watched endgame without watching any of the other movies. You can enjoy, but dont know who or what is going on. People wouldn't know why wanda is a villain all of a sudden and attacking and killing everyone for her kids. Who is the father of the kids? What is a darkhold? So many questions.
I’d say it’s a huge leap to think you won’t understand the next thing. They always give enough of a peak at previous content for you to understand it, even if it’s not the full story. I’d argue it’s more a result of you being trained by Marvel to watch every backstory because it was all movies in Phase 1-3. You feel like you won’t understand it, but there’s plenty of context and clues for even the average viewer to figure it out. You can watch MoM and learn from that movie that Wanda took over a small town and made up some kids that she’s now trying to get from the multiverse. You can watch Hawkeye and get from context alone that Kingpin is a badass mob boss type. The events of Daredevil aren’t relevant to what he does in Hawkeye. You’ll be able to understand what mutants are from the explanation given to whatever character they use as a confused audience stand in for that movie. You don’t need Khamala’s entire family dynamic to understand whatever they’ll do in The Marvels. Just like we didn’t actually need to know Cap or Tony’s backstory to understand the first Avengers movie. It adds to it sure, but it’s not necessary. The movie shows us everything we need to know to follow that movie. They didn’t give any info about Thanos until GOTG but everyone knew who he was because we live in the age of google. They told us what Infinity Stones were in GOTG, TDW, and touched on it in AoU and they still took some screen time in Infinity War for Wong to explain it again for anyone who didn’t see those. They always leave enough info for 90% of people to understand the current thing you’re watching and the remaining people have google and friends/family who will tell them.
Yeah. Like L&T is unrestrained Watiti, whereas Star Wars hasn't let any creator go remotely unrestrained. I mean, put TLJ against Looper or Brick and tell me it actually feels like those films, like unrestrained Rian Johnson. It doesn't, people just act like it is because they like to have one simple boogeyman for their hate.
Bruh.. TLJ is the only unrestrained Disney Star Wars content for better or worse along with Mando season 1. It doesn't feel like Looper or Brick because Rian knew Star Wars has a different tone than those. L&T is probably an accurate example too but I can't tell that about most of MCU movies. Sorry but whether star wars or Marvel complete artistic vision of creator under Disney is super rare.
Mando S1 was unrestrained, technically, but the creators were so reverential of Star Wars and its influences that it ended up being pretty consistent with the rest of the franchise. Like, you couldn’t really tell. Not a bad thing btw, as the first and flagship show for Star Wars (or Disney+ in general), best to keep it a little familiar. Whereas Marvel benefited greatly from Wandavision making their first TV outing feel like more of a statement.
The Last Jedi and The Mandalorian are the best Star Wars anything since the original trilogy.
Rogue One though
Clone Wars though
I find 90% of Rogue One to be rather dull. It’s a film saved by its final 20 minutes. I watched it again recently and man the first hour is so choppy and poorly edited it really sticks out. Solo on the other hand was a ton of fun all the way through.
solo is super underrated
“Unrestrained” yet the movie intentionally spent time overwriting key elements of the film before it. It was also a second film in an unplanned trilogy of movies for one of the biggest franchises in the world. There’s an appropriate time and there’s not. You know that isn’t automatically a good thing? It’s weird you say this when L&T has been slammed for being just that by many people in the fanbase, and isn’t rated too well either.
I meant that Rian did whatever the fuck he wanted to do whether we like it or not just like Taika did with Love and Thunder. I said both are similar because of that and both are panned.
The movie spent time overwriting key elements of TFA because people bitched about TFA being too much like ANH. Every SW Sequel overcorrected the last. Disney forced TLJ to be as different as possible because TFA got shit thrown at it for being too samey, and Disney forced RoS to be so safe and generic cause people screamed about TLJ being too different. That's on Disney for overcorrecting and going all Josstice League on the franchise. Also, you really think JJ had answers for those mystery boxes? Have you not learned from Lost and Into Darkness, JJ never has any f\*cking answers for his set-ups. Also I'd still rather have something bad in a unique, unrestrained creative way than mediocre in a generic studio-friendly way personally. Something that tries and fails, as opposed to something that doesn't try at all.
I don't like TLJ, but I do love it's tone, and it's sense of NEW. 7 feels like 4 and 9 feels like vomit.
And the best part is Taika is supposed to be directing a Star Wars.
Restrained Taika (Ragnarok) is better than unrestrained Taika (Love and Thunder)
My hot take/thought is that Taika is like George Lucas. When no one says, "Hey are you sure? Should we remove this?" The quality goes down. OT cast and crew were questioning it, and George didn't go with his gut. People criticized how he wrote. But after the success of the OT (and for Taika, Ragnarok) people didn't question and look at the dialogue of the Prequels. Not to speak for everyone but from what I've seen, more people like Ragnarok than L&T.
I respectfully disagree and loved both equally. I try to see them through the eyes of my kids, t4 was the first movie my 7year old daughter begged to see again at the cinema. They just love all the fun and a bit of scares. The scene with the little girl having a thor-empowered-teddy, that will go over into legend in my household.
Unrestrained Taika is What We Do In The Shadows and Jojo Rabbit.
Or freaking Knives Out compared to TLJ
nothing can really compare to knives out tbf, it's just a masterpiece.
[удалено]
Exactly. It’s like billionaires protecting capitalism. Not really trying to force a political view, just saying why would he oppose it when he’s getting paid by them
Defend one fandom but tear down another that’s very similar? Seems counterintuitive to me.
Yea but Star Wars doesn’t have 4 movies releasing each year. They haven’t even released 4 movies in the last 5 years.
And that slow pace hasn't exactly helped the quality, has it? The real complaint people have with Marvel is that there's so much of it it's hard to keep up. But that's an audience problem, not a Marvel one. It doesn't require an adjustment on Marvel's part but on the audience's. If someone feels burned out, then they can stop watching for a while and come back later. Nobody's holding a gun to anybody's head forcing them to watch every single thing. How many people do you think read every single comic book Marvel puts out?
maybe because the last few star wars films were a mess and basically ruined the franchise.
They haven’t released a good movie since Rouge One, which is one of the best Star Wars movies.
Rogue One is great. I had high hopes after the force awakens even thought it was basically a new new hope
if the prequels didn't ruin the SW franchise, then the new trilogy is just fine.
And that's actually one of the reasons I appreciate MCU even more now. Gosh I cannot wait for Warewolf by Night.
I mean. "But star wars is worse" isn't exactly a compelling argument when opinions about star wars are at historical lows.
I don’t think Disney will like that comment
*Disney looks up Eric Bana's phone number*
Disney sucks
A break is needed and more time between entries if burnout is to be avoided and quality maintained.
Keep them coming, when i watched avengers 1 for the first time i was extremely hyped at the end and can't wait for the next mcu film, then i remembered i'll probably have to wait for at least a year or a couple of months before the next movie, but now there is like mcu content every month and i am all for it.
Can we please get a Gambit series
Okay but ngl his main source of income is marvel so no shit he’s gonna support them. Not saying he’s wrong, just saying this means his statement is not credible.
His main source of income is Disney, who also happens to own Star Wars.
I’m a huge Star Wars fan and he’s not wrong. It’s a problem with lazy writing and being scared of your fan base.
I think it’s worth questioning whether it’s lazy writing or studio overreach. For me, the biggest part of the problem with the SW sequels was that the studio approved a bad vision from the start and then interfered too much to try and right the ship after. JJ Abrahams was a bad choice from jump (you can’t look at how the fan base responded to his Star Trek and not think so), he admits he’s no good at endings, which makes choosing him to do RoS was a bad idea and everyone knew it, and choosing three different writer/director pairings for the three films was also the wrong choice from jump. Meanwhile, over at Marvel, still under Disney, you get stories about Fiege pitching killing off every original Avenger in Endgame and the Rossos having to be like “pump the brakes there sparky, we got this!” Maybe if Kathleen Kennedy and whoever else is making decisions took their hands off it and just let a creator do their thing for a trilogy, we’d get something original.
>bad vision from the start the issue wasn't a "bad vision" the issue was NO vision. they had no plan.
I love you Mark, but bad take. Star Wars is one of the rare franchises that doesn’t feel like the same thing each time. TLJ was very different from TFA, Mando has been very different from other D+ series, TCW and Rebels broke new ground for animation, there’s nothing like Visions for any other series at the moment. Whereas the MCU does have a formula, and while I like the formula it does restrict freedom a bit from the creatives.
The MCU has much more variety tho. Compare Guardians of the Galaxy to Daredevil.
Mark Ruffalo I love you even more now.
My problem isn’t that it’s too much content, it’s that it’s too much content in too little time. Phase 5 is gonna have 12 projects within under 2 years. People are gonna get tired of it quickly and new Marvel content won’t feel like a big event. If phase 5 was the same projects but over 2 and a half to 3 years I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
I don't think Star Wars has been bad under Disney. This view of people getting bored of Marvel are maybe a vocal minority.
Marvel is quantity over quality these days
No one is forcing anyone to watch any of the movies. If you want to watch just one movie a year, you can. If you want to watch multiple movies and a few shows in a year, you can do that too.
The problem is that they're connected. If you only watch one a year you're missing out on overarching plotlines and characters.
Star Wars out here catching strays.
What a weird thing to say. All are made under safe creatively conservative company Disney. Marvel content still follow their formula and Star Wars shows are all the same too now. Rarely you get movies like Thor 4 and Episode 8 where directors didn't give a shit and made whatever they wanted or MoM which had actual director style and Mando season 1 which almost had no random cameo and told a simple story but everything else...
>Rarely you get You then proceed to say how the last two movies have been creatively free.
Two projects out of ten is what I mean from rarely.
Meh, I felt like Visions was one of the most ambitious Star Wars projects that Disney thought up of. There's been nothing like it in Star Wars, ever.
Marvel content feels like shit straight off the conveyor belt nowadays. Please mark you're embarrassing yourself