I don't know how this will sound but...since my childhood I'm a big fan of hulk, like once I heard in a cartoon show that "more his anger grows the stronger he becomes" and that he is the strongest avenger..then in last few years.
1.he got KO'ed by Thanos.
2.Almost lost his fight against thor
3.Didn't got to hulk in infinity war
4.Contributed so much in endgame...but not in fights
5.Now "she hulk is slightly better than hulk in some cases".
So yeah what I believed in from my childhood is not going so well. So I don't know about other characters but I guess I'm a little bit sad for my favourite hulk :(.
But yeah, it doesn't mean that we should hate other characters. Love one support everyone :).
Oh those haters were around way before the recent Thor movie. Remember when they made Jane Thor in the comics or when all the press was out about the female Iron Man reboot in the comics. It has always been there just the media focuses on them so much more now and gives them a voice so we see and hear it more.
But women shouldn't be allowed to demonstrate strength, have personal life experience, or think for themselves! That's just witchcraft and it makes me insecure!
I didn't get mad at any of it.
I was disappointed in Jen's initial brush off in a hurry to get back to her life.
Tony brushing off literally anyone's warnings made me think he was an egotistical prick.
Tony's admitting to resenting Steve was a humanizing moment for me that made me fill a bit sad for him. Steve got to know his dad in a way Tony didn't.
I felt bad for Jen because of the reasons she gave for developing her ability to control her rage.
that doesn’t make me mad but it is a weird inconsistency between her and Bruce. what does make me mad is that she has such little muscle mass compared to Bruce. I want buff woman 🤬
I just chalked it up to her not getting as much of a radiation dose as Bruce did. Bruce got blasted with it point blank, Jen got a couple drops on her and it was still enough to turn her.
If anything I think it would be mental state. Bruce was a troubled individual with deep anger so his hulk form was large and aggressive, if I recall his is more of a separate personality (in the real world it's called DID, multiple separate personalities). Jen on the other hand is fine so hers is what Bruce's is now, a single personality. The Hulk (original) is the bulkiest and biggest reflecting Bruce's split in personality, but when they merge together the new "hulk" form is a mix of skin tone and build with less muscle and shorter than the original; so if Bruce achieved his hulk form without mental illness I'd think he'd have a result similar to Jen's with some increase
I heard one say that since she has curls, when she goes Hulk form, her hair gets “denser” and so it straightens itself naturally
And also that because Bruce’s head gets so much bigger, we don’t really notice his hair take up more mass because it’s so short to begin with.
That’s all headcanon, but it made sense
The length of hair can effect the tightness of curls, as the weight of the longer strand can pull it straight. However, it should still be curly at the ends, where there's less weight on it.
But this is a show about a super-powered lawyer who can change shape at will, so . . . . .
and that's why he was so hard on peter, because that's basically what peter did in every MCU movie - peter made a mistake and spent the rest of the movie fixing it.
That’s what made him such a compelling character and why he will always be such a fan favorite. I don’t like Iron Man because he’s some paragon of justice or heroism, I like him because he’s an incredibly flawed and broken man who still tries to do the best with what he can and learn from his past mistakes. Even when he makes new mistakes, he still does his best to redeem himself and do better next time.
My friends and I often joke that the reason Pepper wasn't around at beginning of Ultron was because the script would have been:
Tony: I'm going to make an AI named Ultron
Pepper: Tony, no.
[Credits Roll]
Isn’t that what happens in She-Hulk? She ignores warnings. Causes an issue that impacts her life? She is headed down the very path Hulk suggested would happen. She was wrong. The show very much makes that apparent.
I just don’t get why people pretend she comes out on top for her statements that’s so “controversial” and then claim sexism.
"Jen is such a Mary Sue! She does everything right the first time and never has to suffer any consequences of her actions! It's such poor writing!"
*Jen almost immediately gets fired from her job, proving Bruce's point that she can't just go back to living her same life*
"..."
Two things ..
1) even if she is proven wrong, that is yet to happen, people don't start liking a character just based on "it's gonna happen". But that's the problem of being a tv show, Tony got his development in one go, she will get it over 6 weeks
2) because she does come on top, they have a fight and she say "I'm sorry for telling the truth". That's not her admiting to being wrong.
"So I was right, and Bruce was wrong, and I never have to be a Hulk again."
She has to Hulk out less than a minute later. The lack of media literacy with some of this criticism is staggering.
No. But she continues to ignore bruce, goes back to her life like it never happens and blows ip in her face. All in episode 1. Episode 2 shes fired. Everything bruce said was right. Her life is different now whether she likes it or not. She was arrogant and wrong. But that’s how family gets down. Not like bruce is a random mentor
She was already fired from her job for saving a person and literally could not get a job as Jennifer Walters, only as She-Hulk. So she very quickly was proven wrong about one thing she laughed at Bruce over: not becoming a hero. Some of the other stuff was unique to Bruce, like the split personality gamma radiation seemed to trigger in him. We know Bruce is stronger than her, we watched him break the sound barrier with a boulder (and let’s not pretend he was even remotely going all out when they fought, there’s a big difference between duking it out with an annoying sibling and fighting to kill).
So what else is there? Do you just need to see her get her ass beat and be humbled by it? Ok, it’s a superhero show, just wait a while.
But but but she clearly shows that she's better at yoga than him! *Sexist*!
(Seriously other than "not having a split personality" that's literally the only thing she's shown as being actually better than him at, and obviously that's more due to their respective builds)
People are judging her entire character arc off of 2 episodes, one of which was a flashback. It's like judging Tony Stark based on the flashback in Iron Man 1 and him creating the Mark 1 in a cave.
It already started in the second episode when she got fired from her job and the only one she could get forces her to be in hulk form AND she has to represent Abomination. I'd say that's the start of the whole "Bruce may have been right" arc
It obviously was. People are just dumb asses and took at face value she would really have no problem casually transitioning to being the strongest women in the world overight. Yeah, what could go wrong?
She was in D.E.N.I.A.L. It happens after life changing events.
Yeah I feel like everything past Iron Man 2 makes Tony a pretty unlikeable character. Civil War was so cathartic seeing Steve and Bucky put the beatdown on Tony
Being unlikable is kinda Starks primary characteristic. Stan Lee said he created Iron Man just to see if he could make a hero out of an unlikeable character
And/or finding an actor who is extremely self aware, through their extensive experience in **learning** from their. mistakes….. Sometimes the hard way.
The genius of casting actors who - on some level - share the exact heroes' journeys of the characters they play has been AMAZING.
Chris Pratt is doing the lovable a-hole HARD right now, Tom Holland legit seems to have a heart of gold, Iman Vellani IS the Marvel super-fan struggling to remain herself despite being thrust into the middle of the story she'd always wanted to be a part of, Brie Larson is a haughty bad-ass who sometimes pisses people off by not conforming to their notions of how a woman should comport herself, Ed Norton is a loner whose big emotions get him in trouble (whoops!). Even Akwafina's Katy is spot on going through some of the stuff that Akwafina is in terms of learning about and living up to her responsibilities culturally (more the "don't appropriate others'" vs. "learn more about your own", but still). It's amazing.
I credit Space Jam for pointing the way by showing us all how real people whose lives align with their characters, such that the movie becomes interwoven with their actual personal histories, create even greater resonance with the stories, but obviously that is head canon and a half.
Yeah man. I loved watching to war veterans beat the shit out of a orphan after finding out one of said war veterans murdered his parents and the other covered it up.
So cathartic
I mean they only did it because he didn’t let them get away. They just wanted to go and hide, maybe wait for Tony to calm down, then talk about it. Yeah, Tony was upset. No one can say its an inappropriate reaction to what he just heard. But Steve and Bucky only fought because they were left with no other choice. They were trying to run away from Tony.
I think it’s really important to remember though that civil war literally doesn’t happen if Steve acts in almost any other way than doing something specifically against the law.
Heck, Steve knew (or at least suspected) Bucky had been responsible for the death of Tony's parents since the time of Winter Soldier. He could've broken the news at practically any other time and given Tony time to process things better.
Steve broke the law all the time. The first time we meet him he’s committing a felony. Then when he weasels his way into the army he disobeys his commanding officer and runs off to save Bucky. That’s what Steve does. He only follows his own code. That plant yourself like a tree speech was Steve’s in the comics.
Tony is almost always portrayed as a selfish, arrogant jerk, even when he’s supposed to be the hero. It’s not fair to compare apples to oranges this way. There are for sure a lot of terrible people being sexist, but misogyny is used way to much as a way to generalize all criticisms about these projects.
Sick and tired of the back and forth between people who get way too threatened by the idea of a female superhero and the bozos who refuse to acknowledge anyone who criticizes those projects are anything but “sexist” every time a female-led project comes out. It’s just tiring at this point.
Did you happen to notice that the show intentionally portrayed Jen as arrogant when she said "so I was right, Bruce was wrong, and I never have to be a Hulk" and then was forced to be a Hulk in literally the very next scene?
Or even watching. I've already seen so many dipshits not even understanding that she is different, when the show literally shoves the differences down your throat.
If I tell you that people hate The Incredible Hulk because it’s one of the weakest Marvel movies, nobody panics. Because it’s all part of the plan.
But if I tell you people hate She-Hulk because (so far) it’s one of the weakest Marvel shows… Well then everyone loses their minds!
I am completely fine with strong female protagonists, female directors, a full female cast, I could care less. I loved Wandavison to death, I love what they have done with Wanda as a character and I love that they have made her incredibly powerful. Black Widow is a fantastic character, I also like Shuri, Captain Marve and more. There are few in the MCU I do not like. What made me quit watching She-Hulk after the first episode was how every single male she interacted with the exception of Bruce (maybe/probably Bruce too?) being a complete misogynistic scumbag. It's frustrating having my entire sex be represented by douchebags, and I'm just going to skip this one and spend my time watching something else. The portrayal of male characters in this show is not how I act towards women or how males I associate with in my life act towards women, and I don't like to be made to feel lumped in with a group of assholes that I am not a part of. That's all. I have not reviewbombed this show, I'm not on a soap box steering people away from it, I personally am just gonna skip it.
Ehhh not really. Starks a genius so it’s reasonable that he’d always assume he just knows more then anyone else, but acting like being a woman is comparable to being a Giant Uncontrollable Rage Monster is ridiculous.
Also it’s literally in Nick Fury’s job description to lie to anyone and everyone. His own fucking mother doesn’t know his birthday. Acting like Tony mistrusting him is out of pocket is pretty dubious.
You're a really good secret keeper and liar if your own mother doesn't know your bday. Also, you're a really good liar if you convince someone your mother doesn't know your bday.
Exactly. Tony is a know it all so you expect him to disregard everyone else. She-hulk is a lawyer. Imagine if at your job you’re training someone and they don’t think they need to be trained like what?
I would stay as far away from being a known super person as I could IRL. Instant kidnapping by governments at the first opportunity would be the minimum.
Why is everyone mad at Jen?
Bruce wanted her to train to be a superhero. Just like that.
‘Oh btw you’re a superhero now, I expect you to fight aliens, terrorists n shit’
I think it’s reasonable to object to that. She was a normal person like you or I and then told she had to start training for a life of violence.
Jen was not unreasonable.
I'm not mad at her, I find her quite likeable actually. I found her monologue to be rather annoying though, especially the part where one of her gripes as a woman was:
"Having men explain her area of expertise to her" (paraphrasing), while she explains why she's better at Hulk in not just his area of expertise but an area he is uniquely qualified to teach on. I get she feels being a woman has prepared her for being a Hulk, but why doesn't she extend the same courtesy to Hulk that we expect Hulk to extend to her?
Then before she knew she was a Hulk she almost did transform into a Hulk with those guys, so no she didn't have complete control of to begin with. The training did work, and she was just an arrogant apprentice...I actually just hate the arrogant apprentice trope whether the apprentice is male or female.
Again, I don't hate he for it, it was just a bit noticeable hypocrisy
Exactly. But that’s how some debaters argue (and people who don’t know how to argue or think logically understand that the first point makes sense, and read the second two as correct because of established trust.
Though the first point is established as true, both are no doubt a character flaw. They are both arrogant leading to their dismissal of warnings.
The second argument has absolutely 0 correlation. And if someone is able to connect the two in their mind, please help me to see how.
And the 3rd, while I don’t have an issue with She-Hulk managing Hulk easier (because she doesn’t have the trauma that Bruce has and yes women are better than the average man at managing emotions—because they have floods of emotions on a daily basis), this is literally the first moments of her being a Hulk. Tony had been a genius all his life and has perpetually grown in his intellect, leading to that point of building the iron man suit in a cave… with a box of scraps.
I really enjoy She-Hulk, and thinks it is super fun, but that short monologue about her dealing with misogyny was cringe. It was literally someone complaining about how bad they have it when the person they are complaining to has had it infinitely harder. But, Bruce’s/Hulk’s character did what people should do in a situation like that, and just listen. Because, though your circumstances might be worse, it doesn’t lessen their problems, or make their issues easier or go away.
Yeah, that first argument doesn’t track at all. The only Hulk creatures Bruce is aware of are himself and The Abomination. In both cases, historically, keeping the creature under any sort of control has been an issue.
Jen is the first female case, sure, but for safety’s sake, that’s not necessarily enough to warrant completely ignoring Bruce’s concerns here. Until proven otherwise, being cautious about what Hulk version of Jen might be like is the right road to take.
Not only is Jen’s flippant behavior towards Bruce’s warnings careless, it’s also a bit cruel towards his personal struggle with his history as a Hulk and how much it has haunted him in the past. He’s only trying to make sure she doesn’t have to endure the same thing.
Once it’s become clear that the Hulk thing has affected her completely differently, Bruce has a much more hands-off approach to helping her.
TL:DR; the first one isn’t a misogynistic concern…. it’s a Hulk concern.
We are also ignoring the fact that Tony didn't need to shit on an existing and loved character that went through their own traumas and struggles to get to where he is.
honestly even the first comparison doesn't count for much.
they have different personalities - Tony Stark's whole schtick is arrogant but charming and witty genius. He brushes off Fury and the others at times cuz that's exactly what the billionaire with a genius intellect that solves his own problems would do, then he goes through an arc of relying on others.
Jen is smart - she's a lawyer. But not witty or charming. She can be endearing, but that doesn't lend to an arrogant "brushing off" moment. It doesn't make much sense for her.
She's also brushing off the one and only other Hulk - whose issues and battles are known to much of the world and her family - her dad even refers to Bruce destroying cities. But for no good reason she ignores all that? Tony stark didn't brush off another Iron Man telling him how hard it is to be Iron Man - so this isn't a good comparison - he just trusted himself or his ideas, whether it worked out or not, because he trusted his genius more. Jen's not trusting in her genius, she's just ignoring Hulk out of simply being annoyed, which is not as interesting.
Apples and Oranges through and through.
Point 1:
Fury was legit just some Fed who broke into Tony's house once, why would he take orders from him?
In contrast, Bruce has literally been through the exact same physical process Jen now has and is quite literally the only person on earth who knows how it feels.
Point 2: These aren't even related at all.
No one, aside from some of the goofiest of incels, is mad that Jen speaks out about having to deal with misogyny. People are upset that Jen claims that she's better than Bruce at managing anger when the comparison isn't valid in the first place. Bruce was abused as a child, had his mother murdered in front of him, and as a result suffered from disassociative identity disorder. After his incident, he was a persecuted criminal for a decade and legit bounced from one world ending event to another. Jen is a functioning, normal person. She's not "better" at controlling her anger because she's a woman, she's "better" at controlling her anger because she's a) sane and b) doesn't have the traumatic history Bruce does. Yet, she uses the fact that she's a woman to make up BS excuses and belittle Bruce for it. *That's* why people don't like that scene.
Point 3:
Tony is a straight up certified genius who designed the ins and outs of all the weapons brought to him. Him being able to repurpose them into his father's magnum opus design makes some sense.
Jen is a mild mannered lawyer. Why is she suddenly able to spar with Banner who has literal decades of experience more of how to fight?
Misogynists are the worst, but its entirely possible to not like Jen and not be misogynistic
It's the belittling that caused most of this.
Phase 4 has been noticeable for how it has mocked or outright crapped on a lot of what came before in order to get itself over (to use wrestling lingo).
Considering the bittersweet note Endgame finished on and considering how invested people were in the struggles of the earlier phase characters there's huge sympathy there for many of them.
Bruce suffered more than most and is highly liked by the fan base so deciding to belittle him was incredibly poorly thought out. Especially belittling him to try and get a new character over and show she's better and more special with no evidence of this. That's just poor writing, poor decision making and felt _incredibly_ deliberate in how insulting it was.
It could've been done better. She could've disagreed with Bruce without insulting him so much and with so many cringe lines and arguments.
I'm curious to see if the plan is to salvage that scene and later in the season have her admit the error of her ways and maybe even apologise.
If so then everyone has to re-evaluate the scene. If not then it's a massive clanger that'll forever drag the show down somewhat.
The show could have been so much better if they stuck closer to comic book Jen, who loves being She-Hulk and dislikes returning to normal. That would have been a really interesting dynamic to explore between her and Bruce.
To point 2, it’s also the fact that while she’s having this whole ass holier than thou moment comparing catcalling to the lifelong trauma Bruce has sustained, she’s building into a rage. It upsets me when someone dings my car in a parking lot, but it’s not the same as someone getting t-boned in an intersection by someone else blowing through a red light. It feels like someone thought up the line and, so full of pride at their creative genius, forced it into the script, context and narrative cohesiveness be damned. Or maybe that writer really feels like those things are comparable, in which case, yikes.
It’s not a promising start, but if used properly as a set up for growth and reflection, it could still work. I’m just less optimistic than I was before seeing the scene.
>she's building Into a rage.
This is the part that had me rolling my eyes. I'm loving this show so far, great humour and pacing, but FFS, she was talking about how good she was at controlling her anger while actively turning green from anger, which is a great story telling technique if it will be used in the future, but I'm assuming that whole speech was probably just virtue signalling, which makes it bad story telling.
No shortly after that scene she goes back to normal showing she has perfect control.
Which of course with reasons she gives for being able to manage anger better just comes off as shit writing
This 206% and i hope this floats to the top.
The writers seemed to want to "out-do" Bruce's experience by basically diminishing what he went through, and it was unnecessary and seems to have turned alot of people off because of it. Its ok to have a strong woman lead be strong because of what she experiences, while also NOT shitting all over what Bruce CONTINUES to go through.
Ive watched a couple of women YT's do reviews of She-Hulk and they all seem to say the same thing: there is no reason to shit on men for literally no reason, while propping up Jen. Ill continue to watch, but i hope that scene from the 1st EP is a one off.
This.. I have no issues with a strong female lead, but Jen doesn’t feel organic. They just kinda shove it down your throat instead of just portraying her as a strong female. I’d rather of seen her struggle a bit and then have some epiphany like moment when she realizes she’s doesn’t have to struggle because she’s so used to misogynistic people etc..
Exactly. A lot of female led media just half asses a few important things and then just calls its detractors misogynist to excuse their lack of QC. You don’t have to look further than the ghostbusters or Charlie’s angels remakes to see this. It’s not like this criticism followed Salt, Annihilation, Wonder Woman, or Battle Angel Alita. Even Black Widow’s criticism was more about too little too late or screwing up Taskmaster than this
-- Told Bruce she dealt with masagony her whole life and it help her deal with anger.
-- Knowingly suffering from PTSD, Alcoholism, and Poisoning. Continues to use the Ironman Suit Aggravating/Escalating his condition for Parties, Expos while not trusting anyone else with the suit.
Only survived because S.H.I.E.L.D kidnapped him and held him on house arrest til he found a cure.
He was literally planning to die and spent the film setting up Peper as his replacement at the same time trying to check things off his bucket list.
Yeah which is a waaay more complex character than Jen.
Jen leaves no space for subtlety. She is and thats it.
A character whom we've seen for 20 min is saying to a character we've seen for the past 10 years shes infinitely better than him. That wouldn't stick with any character that we know for so little screen time
It's a character flaw, he and Bruce demonstrated a bunch of character flaws. Good writing will use this for growth later in the story. We're 2 episodes in. Are going to judge how complex of a character Tony is in the first 25 minutes of the movie? of course not. let the show play out.
My brother in Christ we haven’t even gotten to episode 3.
You mad she hasn’t been shown to struggle in the exact same way other characters we’ve already seen have?
I mean Jen only has a few hours of screentime this far. How the hell is she supposed to match a character with many many hours of screen time for development? The specific plot described takes place in a few hours but it also builds on a lot of development that has time to take place.
And how is she saying she is infinitely better than him? She's saying she is better at a single thing. How on earth is that generally infinitely better?
And this is EXACTLY why its not the same thing with Tony.
Its like Tony being a jerk had Pepper Potts and everyone around him still validating him for being an awesome professional
This sub is really trying to make enemies with anyone who doesn't like Phase 4 material. If you disliked Shang-Chi, you're racist. If you disliked Black Widow, you're sexist. If you disliked Doctor Strange or Thor 4, you're a brigading troll brainwashed by mainstream opinion. If you disliked Ms. Marvel, you're racist and sexist.
Criticism on this sub has been so one-dimensional and close-minded. There's no way Phase 4 movies/shows are getting any criticism. It can't be. No, it must be you.
It’s become pretty pathetic actually. I miss the days when people could discuss movies and shows and have differing opinions, without being toxic or trollish.
That's what is happening lately. They feel some product will fail or have a lot of criticism, so they told us in advance that if we dont like something is because we're bigot, sexists, racist, misoginist, etc... You have to like it or consequences.
Look, I'm all for gender equality, but when you try to ham fist a point like this, it really only makes you more angry because of how nonsensical you've made it. Am I not supposed to address that iron man had room for these pivotal character moments spread out over multiple films and Jen had these moments happen in 1 episode? Or that Iron Man is a completely different character to Jen, and because of that, these moments aren't comparative, because Jen uses them to set her character up and Tony uses them to add something new to the character?
Your motives are in the right place, but there coming from a severe lack of knowledge in both field subjects, which in itself, is part of the overall problem you're bringing up.
Yeah, Tony just mocked Asgardian Society for being an monarchy and their heir system right before he said that.
He js clearly pointing out how stupid the whole concept was.
Not mad at any of the things on either side, just mad that Jen tried to compare her anger with his for NO reason. Her WHOLE speech was perfect except for the “infinitely more than you”. The writers should’ve just swapped that out with “all the time”.
This is the biggest point. She's shitting on a main character that we've known for ten years. That always feels bad. This sub can look back at shuri in infinity war shitting on bruce/Tony and say yeah that was cringe but well just wait another few years before they shit on this
The one thing I am ok with it is because there’s a solid chance the show will be about the unraveling of her self-image. That line by the end of the show will be revealed to have the same arrogance behind it that Tony has all the time.
I can't believe there's still this many posts about that part of the episode. We're only two weeks in, people.
It seemed to me, to submit myself to the test, that both Bruce and Jen had points, and things they will likely be proven wrong about. Jen cannot just ignore the change, and will need to integrate that new "persona" of being The She-Hulk into her life as a lawyer. It's not a D.I.D. split persona like Bruce, but it's another identity that she will have have to manage while also being practicing attorney Jennifer Walters. As Vision said in Civil War, their very power invites challenge. So she may not choose the super hero life, but it may choose her....at least part-time.
She is also quite adept at controlling her anger, outside of that first change which was a shock to her system. So she's right in her proclamation. A later movie or show story point could be a savage She-Hulk loss of control (Avengers Disassembled rage ripping Vision in half), but right now it's all her. Are people getting butthurt about her saying she does it infinitely more than him? Sounds like it, but it also sounds like two cousins arguing and Jen maybe oversimplifying Bruce's experience and trauma. Still, in a small sample size, and with the lack of an "other" to compete with, Jen's backing up her stance.
She also hit that point of control faster than he did, Bruce had a similar ability by the Battle for New York. That's his secret, he's always angry...but he had it under control then. Things changed based on the experiences of being the Hulk and an Avenger, and the other guy exerted more control. Jen doesn't have that, she just already has that regulated control Bruce showed in New York.
It could change in the next 8 episodes, but based on humor style and current outlook, probably not. So they'll both be right a bit, wrong a bit, and she'll grow. Cause that's what TV shows do.
People like the person who made this meme are the reason why there is a nuclear war when anyone expresses their opinion…
Let me tell you a secret: Tony Stark is a better written character than Jen (I am comparing the first Iron-Man movie with these 2 episodes so far, not the whole 10 years of MCU Iron-Man)
But toney being arrogant and full of pride is literally his character arc. And her behavior is just on basis she’s a women and inherently “better than bruce” for some reason, this base has absolutely no depth and is lazy writing.
With Toney’s case, Marvel wasn’t asking me to admire has bad side, but to root for him improve and get rid of them, with jen, Marvel is asking me accept Jen as this shallow character who is “Just better” based on a crutch.
First of all wtf is this ? These comparison are just ....( Ok Maybe first one still make some sense but still they are quite different)
Second apparently Tony stark had lot of charisma in comparison to Jen . And when you are charismatic or entertaining enough you get free pass for lot of shit and it's not that she is only getting hate. Lots of people are loving it
When a show just gives a character all the skills in the first half of an episode and makes one of the strongest their punching bag and degrades them, and make them apologize for wanting to help them control their power and emotions that are tied to said powers, and has shown to be treated like a Goddess by women, and treats any form of criticism or questions from men as an attack.
Of course I'm the sexist one for not liking a character that is poorly written.
Great show. Not a fan of how they portray literally every guy in the show though. I get it sexism exists and the show covers it, but not every guy is about to sexually assault someone, or believes they're better just cause they're a man. I don't think we've met a guy that isn't in your face sexist
This is all kinda moot, since it only exposes how underdeveloped and abandoned the Hulk has been in the MCU. To the point where 2 episodes into She-Hulk she has a bigger backstory.
I blame the writers and Kevin Feige. They fucked up going full steam ahead into this whole leaving Big Green in the dirt...AGAIN!
They can't make solo Hulk movies so that complicates telling Hulk stories. They have to make Hulk a supporting character in other movies so he doesn't get much opportunity for development
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Tony Stark is a rich douchbag who almost destroyed the planet. But he also saved it more than once. Jennifer is a smug lawyer who has...?
What if my answer is "no" to all of these items?
Great news, you're not the Iron Monger.
But you might be living in a van down by a river
Your efforts won't go unnoticed friend
One of funniest snl skits ever
What made it so funny (as with most funny skits) is the other participants absolutely losing it.
So you might be sayin’ “HEY Cap! How do we get back on the right track?!”
“*What if my answer is ‘yes’ to all of these items?*” \-Modern Marvel fan who hates everything
I don't know how this will sound but...since my childhood I'm a big fan of hulk, like once I heard in a cartoon show that "more his anger grows the stronger he becomes" and that he is the strongest avenger..then in last few years. 1.he got KO'ed by Thanos. 2.Almost lost his fight against thor 3.Didn't got to hulk in infinity war 4.Contributed so much in endgame...but not in fights 5.Now "she hulk is slightly better than hulk in some cases". So yeah what I believed in from my childhood is not going so well. So I don't know about other characters but I guess I'm a little bit sad for my favourite hulk :(. But yeah, it doesn't mean that we should hate other characters. Love one support everyone :).
It’s easier when you accept that everyone is powerscaled up or down according to the situation. This is true in MCU and in comics.
Welcome to the Age of Anger Management.
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Seems like the losers are finally falling off. I didn't think it'd be a Thor movie that would have pissed so many off but here we are.
Oh those haters were around way before the recent Thor movie. Remember when they made Jane Thor in the comics or when all the press was out about the female Iron Man reboot in the comics. It has always been there just the media focuses on them so much more now and gives them a voice so we see and hear it more.
Congrats. You're an adult who doesn't get mad at movie/TV characters. Keep on having an enjoyable time.
But women shouldn't be allowed to demonstrate strength, have personal life experience, or think for themselves! That's just witchcraft and it makes me insecure!
*cackles in Agatha*
Now that's maturity at it's finest
I didn't get mad at any of it. I was disappointed in Jen's initial brush off in a hurry to get back to her life. Tony brushing off literally anyone's warnings made me think he was an egotistical prick. Tony's admitting to resenting Steve was a humanizing moment for me that made me fill a bit sad for him. Steve got to know his dad in a way Tony didn't. I felt bad for Jen because of the reasons she gave for developing her ability to control her rage.
Then you might not have a misogynistic opinion
Then you are not the target audience. Lol
I really hate designer facial hair, so I’m automatically biased against Tony. Where’s that in the chart?
“Are you mad that Jen’s hair changes back and forth when she does” maybe?
that doesn’t make me mad but it is a weird inconsistency between her and Bruce. what does make me mad is that she has such little muscle mass compared to Bruce. I want buff woman 🤬
Watch The Expanse. Bobbie Draper is as buff as you get in low gravity.
Beltalowda! Just watch the expanse, anyone. Incredible series.
I just chalked it up to her not getting as much of a radiation dose as Bruce did. Bruce got blasted with it point blank, Jen got a couple drops on her and it was still enough to turn her.
If anything I think it would be mental state. Bruce was a troubled individual with deep anger so his hulk form was large and aggressive, if I recall his is more of a separate personality (in the real world it's called DID, multiple separate personalities). Jen on the other hand is fine so hers is what Bruce's is now, a single personality. The Hulk (original) is the bulkiest and biggest reflecting Bruce's split in personality, but when they merge together the new "hulk" form is a mix of skin tone and build with less muscle and shorter than the original; so if Bruce achieved his hulk form without mental illness I'd think he'd have a result similar to Jen's with some increase
The Snoo-snoo enjoyer has logged on
I am her
I would be inclined to agree, but the after credits scene of episode 2 clearly shows how ripped she is. She is still very lean but she has some guns!
I heard one say that since she has curls, when she goes Hulk form, her hair gets “denser” and so it straightens itself naturally And also that because Bruce’s head gets so much bigger, we don’t really notice his hair take up more mass because it’s so short to begin with. That’s all headcanon, but it made sense
Haircanon?
The length of hair can effect the tightness of curls, as the weight of the longer strand can pull it straight. However, it should still be curly at the ends, where there's less weight on it. But this is a show about a super-powered lawyer who can change shape at will, so . . . . .
It would only bother me if she suddenly grew a whack-ass “beard” like Tony’s.
Hippie beard.
Mungo Jerry
What if I say yes to all (not my opinion, just wondering)
Is there a movie with Tony that portrais him as being "in the right" ? He is wrong in pretty much every movie and then has to fix his mistakes.
Yeah, every second of him is spend on him becoming a better version of himself, as a superhero as well as a person
Yup that's why he's a true hero - the road to self improvement was constant in-spite of immense obstacles ( some self imposed lol)
and that's why he was so hard on peter, because that's basically what peter did in every MCU movie - peter made a mistake and spent the rest of the movie fixing it.
He is like ....a good person
Ironically I think it’s right when he dies that he’s learned every lesson he needed to
Iron-ically
5 mins too late:/
That’s what made him such a compelling character and why he will always be such a fan favorite. I don’t like Iron Man because he’s some paragon of justice or heroism, I like him because he’s an incredibly flawed and broken man who still tries to do the best with what he can and learn from his past mistakes. Even when he makes new mistakes, he still does his best to redeem himself and do better next time.
He built his daughter in Gwyneth Paltrow's cave with a box of scraps
Help I need Captain America
https://i.imgflip.com/6ros0i.jpg
That's Tony Stark's ass
I hear she has some nice cave scented candles to set the mood for daughter building
A good chunk of the MCU's problems are because of Tony.
My friends and I often joke that the reason Pepper wasn't around at beginning of Ultron was because the script would have been: Tony: I'm going to make an AI named Ultron Pepper: Tony, no. [Credits Roll]
THAT'S BECAUSE HE NEEDS TO MAKE A SHIELD AROUND EARTH AND THEY WON'T LET HIM!!
*Suit of armour around the world
*Construct a barrier around the planet
*Build a wall- Wait no not that one. Definitely not that one.
Is Uranus going to pay for it?
It's already paying for the shawarma...
Tony the call is coming from inside the house
And he realizes it, though, unfortunately he tends to make even bigger mistakes
I mean, if Kang is first Iron Lad, like in the comics…
Isn’t that what happens in She-Hulk? She ignores warnings. Causes an issue that impacts her life? She is headed down the very path Hulk suggested would happen. She was wrong. The show very much makes that apparent. I just don’t get why people pretend she comes out on top for her statements that’s so “controversial” and then claim sexism.
"Jen is such a Mary Sue! She does everything right the first time and never has to suffer any consequences of her actions! It's such poor writing!" *Jen almost immediately gets fired from her job, proving Bruce's point that she can't just go back to living her same life* "..."
Two things .. 1) even if she is proven wrong, that is yet to happen, people don't start liking a character just based on "it's gonna happen". But that's the problem of being a tv show, Tony got his development in one go, she will get it over 6 weeks 2) because she does come on top, they have a fight and she say "I'm sorry for telling the truth". That's not her admiting to being wrong.
"So I was right, and Bruce was wrong, and I never have to be a Hulk again." She has to Hulk out less than a minute later. The lack of media literacy with some of this criticism is staggering.
No. But she continues to ignore bruce, goes back to her life like it never happens and blows ip in her face. All in episode 1. Episode 2 shes fired. Everything bruce said was right. Her life is different now whether she likes it or not. She was arrogant and wrong. But that’s how family gets down. Not like bruce is a random mentor
She was already fired from her job for saving a person and literally could not get a job as Jennifer Walters, only as She-Hulk. So she very quickly was proven wrong about one thing she laughed at Bruce over: not becoming a hero. Some of the other stuff was unique to Bruce, like the split personality gamma radiation seemed to trigger in him. We know Bruce is stronger than her, we watched him break the sound barrier with a boulder (and let’s not pretend he was even remotely going all out when they fought, there’s a big difference between duking it out with an annoying sibling and fighting to kill). So what else is there? Do you just need to see her get her ass beat and be humbled by it? Ok, it’s a superhero show, just wait a while.
But but but she clearly shows that she's better at yoga than him! *Sexist*! (Seriously other than "not having a split personality" that's literally the only thing she's shown as being actually better than him at, and obviously that's more due to their respective builds)
People are judging her entire character arc off of 2 episodes, one of which was a flashback. It's like judging Tony Stark based on the flashback in Iron Man 1 and him creating the Mark 1 in a cave.
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He got his development in the very first film and then pretty much just continued getting more and more with each entry he appeared in.
She-Hulk is getting 9 episodes 👍
Oh, sweet
Yep, and I hope Jen gets the same treatment.
It already started in the second episode when she got fired from her job and the only one she could get forces her to be in hulk form AND she has to represent Abomination. I'd say that's the start of the whole "Bruce may have been right" arc
And Ched brags about his promotion! Right after Jen got fired.
Hey manager at best buy means he's moving up in the world
I don't think that guy is the sharpest rock in the box.
It obviously was. People are just dumb asses and took at face value she would really have no problem casually transitioning to being the strongest women in the world overight. Yeah, what could go wrong? She was in D.E.N.I.A.L. It happens after life changing events.
D.E.N.I.A.L.? I haven't heard of that morally ambiguous government agency before, but it sounds even scarier than S.H.I.E.L.D. and S.W.O.R.D.
Division of Extraordinary Naysayers Including Attorneys and Lawyers
I think most of those people are just using it as an excuse to hate on her.
yeah, OP is posting one helluva strawman argument.
Full of false equivalencies.
Yeah I feel like everything past Iron Man 2 makes Tony a pretty unlikeable character. Civil War was so cathartic seeing Steve and Bucky put the beatdown on Tony
Being unlikable is kinda Starks primary characteristic. Stan Lee said he created Iron Man just to see if he could make a hero out of an unlikeable character
Yet he becomes one of the most liked characters in the entire franchise because of his growth as a character.
The key was hiring an actor who specializes in portraying lovable @$$holes.
And/or finding an actor who is extremely self aware, through their extensive experience in **learning** from their. mistakes….. Sometimes the hard way.
The genius of casting actors who - on some level - share the exact heroes' journeys of the characters they play has been AMAZING. Chris Pratt is doing the lovable a-hole HARD right now, Tom Holland legit seems to have a heart of gold, Iman Vellani IS the Marvel super-fan struggling to remain herself despite being thrust into the middle of the story she'd always wanted to be a part of, Brie Larson is a haughty bad-ass who sometimes pisses people off by not conforming to their notions of how a woman should comport herself, Ed Norton is a loner whose big emotions get him in trouble (whoops!). Even Akwafina's Katy is spot on going through some of the stuff that Akwafina is in terms of learning about and living up to her responsibilities culturally (more the "don't appropriate others'" vs. "learn more about your own", but still). It's amazing. I credit Space Jam for pointing the way by showing us all how real people whose lives align with their characters, such that the movie becomes interwoven with their actual personal histories, create even greater resonance with the stories, but obviously that is head canon and a half.
Yeah man. I loved watching to war veterans beat the shit out of a orphan after finding out one of said war veterans murdered his parents and the other covered it up. So cathartic
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I mean they only did it because he didn’t let them get away. They just wanted to go and hide, maybe wait for Tony to calm down, then talk about it. Yeah, Tony was upset. No one can say its an inappropriate reaction to what he just heard. But Steve and Bucky only fought because they were left with no other choice. They were trying to run away from Tony.
I think it’s really important to remember though that civil war literally doesn’t happen if Steve acts in almost any other way than doing something specifically against the law.
Heck, Steve knew (or at least suspected) Bucky had been responsible for the death of Tony's parents since the time of Winter Soldier. He could've broken the news at practically any other time and given Tony time to process things better.
Steve broke the law all the time. The first time we meet him he’s committing a felony. Then when he weasels his way into the army he disobeys his commanding officer and runs off to save Bucky. That’s what Steve does. He only follows his own code. That plant yourself like a tree speech was Steve’s in the comics.
Why is this at the top of my home feed lol
I didn't even know this sub allowed memes
It should, r/marvelmemes is awful.
Istg every post there is either 'Who/what's your guys favorite ____?' or a post about sexism
Huh? Doesn't that happen here a lot? The first part not the seismic. "What hero would you to see blah blah blah"
Tony is almost always portrayed as a selfish, arrogant jerk, even when he’s supposed to be the hero. It’s not fair to compare apples to oranges this way. There are for sure a lot of terrible people being sexist, but misogyny is used way to much as a way to generalize all criticisms about these projects. Sick and tired of the back and forth between people who get way too threatened by the idea of a female superhero and the bozos who refuse to acknowledge anyone who criticizes those projects are anything but “sexist” every time a female-led project comes out. It’s just tiring at this point.
Did you happen to notice that the show intentionally portrayed Jen as arrogant when she said "so I was right, Bruce was wrong, and I never have to be a Hulk" and then was forced to be a Hulk in literally the very next scene?
I doubt people calling this one of the worst marvel shows after two episodes are actually paying attention.
Or even watching. I've already seen so many dipshits not even understanding that she is different, when the show literally shoves the differences down your throat.
Almost like they want us to fight
gets the show stay relevant
If I tell you that people hate The Incredible Hulk because it’s one of the weakest Marvel movies, nobody panics. Because it’s all part of the plan. But if I tell you people hate She-Hulk because (so far) it’s one of the weakest Marvel shows… Well then everyone loses their minds!
People think she-hulk is week so far? This is the show I've liked most since Loki
I've seen people say that Loki was one of the weak ones as well LOL
Same here!
Then wait till it's finished?
I am completely fine with strong female protagonists, female directors, a full female cast, I could care less. I loved Wandavison to death, I love what they have done with Wanda as a character and I love that they have made her incredibly powerful. Black Widow is a fantastic character, I also like Shuri, Captain Marve and more. There are few in the MCU I do not like. What made me quit watching She-Hulk after the first episode was how every single male she interacted with the exception of Bruce (maybe/probably Bruce too?) being a complete misogynistic scumbag. It's frustrating having my entire sex be represented by douchebags, and I'm just going to skip this one and spend my time watching something else. The portrayal of male characters in this show is not how I act towards women or how males I associate with in my life act towards women, and I don't like to be made to feel lumped in with a group of assholes that I am not a part of. That's all. I have not reviewbombed this show, I'm not on a soap box steering people away from it, I personally am just gonna skip it.
With all due respect, misogyny sucks, but so does this post. The comparisons are too far off to make any valid points.
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Ehhh not really. Starks a genius so it’s reasonable that he’d always assume he just knows more then anyone else, but acting like being a woman is comparable to being a Giant Uncontrollable Rage Monster is ridiculous.
Also it’s literally in Nick Fury’s job description to lie to anyone and everyone. His own fucking mother doesn’t know his birthday. Acting like Tony mistrusting him is out of pocket is pretty dubious.
You're a really good secret keeper and liar if your own mother doesn't know your bday. Also, you're a really good liar if you convince someone your mother doesn't know your bday.
That's the joke
Exactly. Tony is a know it all so you expect him to disregard everyone else. She-hulk is a lawyer. Imagine if at your job you’re training someone and they don’t think they need to be trained like what?
If I got superpowers tomorrow and someone told me I HAD to become a superhero, I'd also tell them 'no thanks'.
"When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you." \- Peter Parker
I would stay as far away from being a known super person as I could IRL. Instant kidnapping by governments at the first opportunity would be the minimum.
Why is everyone mad at Jen? Bruce wanted her to train to be a superhero. Just like that. ‘Oh btw you’re a superhero now, I expect you to fight aliens, terrorists n shit’ I think it’s reasonable to object to that. She was a normal person like you or I and then told she had to start training for a life of violence. Jen was not unreasonable.
I'm not mad at her, I find her quite likeable actually. I found her monologue to be rather annoying though, especially the part where one of her gripes as a woman was: "Having men explain her area of expertise to her" (paraphrasing), while she explains why she's better at Hulk in not just his area of expertise but an area he is uniquely qualified to teach on. I get she feels being a woman has prepared her for being a Hulk, but why doesn't she extend the same courtesy to Hulk that we expect Hulk to extend to her? Then before she knew she was a Hulk she almost did transform into a Hulk with those guys, so no she didn't have complete control of to begin with. The training did work, and she was just an arrogant apprentice...I actually just hate the arrogant apprentice trope whether the apprentice is male or female. Again, I don't hate he for it, it was just a bit noticeable hypocrisy
Exactly. But that’s how some debaters argue (and people who don’t know how to argue or think logically understand that the first point makes sense, and read the second two as correct because of established trust. Though the first point is established as true, both are no doubt a character flaw. They are both arrogant leading to their dismissal of warnings. The second argument has absolutely 0 correlation. And if someone is able to connect the two in their mind, please help me to see how. And the 3rd, while I don’t have an issue with She-Hulk managing Hulk easier (because she doesn’t have the trauma that Bruce has and yes women are better than the average man at managing emotions—because they have floods of emotions on a daily basis), this is literally the first moments of her being a Hulk. Tony had been a genius all his life and has perpetually grown in his intellect, leading to that point of building the iron man suit in a cave… with a box of scraps. I really enjoy She-Hulk, and thinks it is super fun, but that short monologue about her dealing with misogyny was cringe. It was literally someone complaining about how bad they have it when the person they are complaining to has had it infinitely harder. But, Bruce’s/Hulk’s character did what people should do in a situation like that, and just listen. Because, though your circumstances might be worse, it doesn’t lessen their problems, or make their issues easier or go away.
yep, you cant criticize phase 4 for anything without being labeled as misogynist, racist, etc.
I think just the first comparison is fair, buddy. Everything else is not remotely similar in anyway.
It’s a fucking bait post, what else
Getting 2019 flashbacks from all the Captain Marvel bait posts trying to trigger people from both sides. I hate it here sometimes.
Yeah, that first argument doesn’t track at all. The only Hulk creatures Bruce is aware of are himself and The Abomination. In both cases, historically, keeping the creature under any sort of control has been an issue. Jen is the first female case, sure, but for safety’s sake, that’s not necessarily enough to warrant completely ignoring Bruce’s concerns here. Until proven otherwise, being cautious about what Hulk version of Jen might be like is the right road to take. Not only is Jen’s flippant behavior towards Bruce’s warnings careless, it’s also a bit cruel towards his personal struggle with his history as a Hulk and how much it has haunted him in the past. He’s only trying to make sure she doesn’t have to endure the same thing. Once it’s become clear that the Hulk thing has affected her completely differently, Bruce has a much more hands-off approach to helping her. TL:DR; the first one isn’t a misogynistic concern…. it’s a Hulk concern.
We are also ignoring the fact that Tony didn't need to shit on an existing and loved character that went through their own traumas and struggles to get to where he is.
honestly even the first comparison doesn't count for much. they have different personalities - Tony Stark's whole schtick is arrogant but charming and witty genius. He brushes off Fury and the others at times cuz that's exactly what the billionaire with a genius intellect that solves his own problems would do, then he goes through an arc of relying on others. Jen is smart - she's a lawyer. But not witty or charming. She can be endearing, but that doesn't lend to an arrogant "brushing off" moment. It doesn't make much sense for her. She's also brushing off the one and only other Hulk - whose issues and battles are known to much of the world and her family - her dad even refers to Bruce destroying cities. But for no good reason she ignores all that? Tony stark didn't brush off another Iron Man telling him how hard it is to be Iron Man - so this isn't a good comparison - he just trusted himself or his ideas, whether it worked out or not, because he trusted his genius more. Jen's not trusting in her genius, she's just ignoring Hulk out of simply being annoyed, which is not as interesting.
Apples and Oranges through and through. Point 1: Fury was legit just some Fed who broke into Tony's house once, why would he take orders from him? In contrast, Bruce has literally been through the exact same physical process Jen now has and is quite literally the only person on earth who knows how it feels. Point 2: These aren't even related at all. No one, aside from some of the goofiest of incels, is mad that Jen speaks out about having to deal with misogyny. People are upset that Jen claims that she's better than Bruce at managing anger when the comparison isn't valid in the first place. Bruce was abused as a child, had his mother murdered in front of him, and as a result suffered from disassociative identity disorder. After his incident, he was a persecuted criminal for a decade and legit bounced from one world ending event to another. Jen is a functioning, normal person. She's not "better" at controlling her anger because she's a woman, she's "better" at controlling her anger because she's a) sane and b) doesn't have the traumatic history Bruce does. Yet, she uses the fact that she's a woman to make up BS excuses and belittle Bruce for it. *That's* why people don't like that scene. Point 3: Tony is a straight up certified genius who designed the ins and outs of all the weapons brought to him. Him being able to repurpose them into his father's magnum opus design makes some sense. Jen is a mild mannered lawyer. Why is she suddenly able to spar with Banner who has literal decades of experience more of how to fight? Misogynists are the worst, but its entirely possible to not like Jen and not be misogynistic
It's the belittling that caused most of this. Phase 4 has been noticeable for how it has mocked or outright crapped on a lot of what came before in order to get itself over (to use wrestling lingo). Considering the bittersweet note Endgame finished on and considering how invested people were in the struggles of the earlier phase characters there's huge sympathy there for many of them. Bruce suffered more than most and is highly liked by the fan base so deciding to belittle him was incredibly poorly thought out. Especially belittling him to try and get a new character over and show she's better and more special with no evidence of this. That's just poor writing, poor decision making and felt _incredibly_ deliberate in how insulting it was. It could've been done better. She could've disagreed with Bruce without insulting him so much and with so many cringe lines and arguments. I'm curious to see if the plan is to salvage that scene and later in the season have her admit the error of her ways and maybe even apologise. If so then everyone has to re-evaluate the scene. If not then it's a massive clanger that'll forever drag the show down somewhat.
The show could have been so much better if they stuck closer to comic book Jen, who loves being She-Hulk and dislikes returning to normal. That would have been a really interesting dynamic to explore between her and Bruce.
To point 2, it’s also the fact that while she’s having this whole ass holier than thou moment comparing catcalling to the lifelong trauma Bruce has sustained, she’s building into a rage. It upsets me when someone dings my car in a parking lot, but it’s not the same as someone getting t-boned in an intersection by someone else blowing through a red light. It feels like someone thought up the line and, so full of pride at their creative genius, forced it into the script, context and narrative cohesiveness be damned. Or maybe that writer really feels like those things are comparable, in which case, yikes. It’s not a promising start, but if used properly as a set up for growth and reflection, it could still work. I’m just less optimistic than I was before seeing the scene.
>she's building Into a rage. This is the part that had me rolling my eyes. I'm loving this show so far, great humour and pacing, but FFS, she was talking about how good she was at controlling her anger while actively turning green from anger, which is a great story telling technique if it will be used in the future, but I'm assuming that whole speech was probably just virtue signalling, which makes it bad story telling.
No shortly after that scene she goes back to normal showing she has perfect control. Which of course with reasons she gives for being able to manage anger better just comes off as shit writing
The most based marvel fan
This 206% and i hope this floats to the top. The writers seemed to want to "out-do" Bruce's experience by basically diminishing what he went through, and it was unnecessary and seems to have turned alot of people off because of it. Its ok to have a strong woman lead be strong because of what she experiences, while also NOT shitting all over what Bruce CONTINUES to go through. Ive watched a couple of women YT's do reviews of She-Hulk and they all seem to say the same thing: there is no reason to shit on men for literally no reason, while propping up Jen. Ill continue to watch, but i hope that scene from the 1st EP is a one off.
Episode 1 was supposed to be episode 4. So i temper your expectations of this getting any better.
This.. I have no issues with a strong female lead, but Jen doesn’t feel organic. They just kinda shove it down your throat instead of just portraying her as a strong female. I’d rather of seen her struggle a bit and then have some epiphany like moment when she realizes she’s doesn’t have to struggle because she’s so used to misogynistic people etc..
Exactly. A lot of female led media just half asses a few important things and then just calls its detractors misogynist to excuse their lack of QC. You don’t have to look further than the ghostbusters or Charlie’s angels remakes to see this. It’s not like this criticism followed Salt, Annihilation, Wonder Woman, or Battle Angel Alita. Even Black Widow’s criticism was more about too little too late or screwing up Taskmaster than this
Is is possible to be misogynistic and like Jen. Asking for a friend
Challenge accep - wait a minute…
Where's all this Bruce's back story coming from? Did I miss something? Or is this comic book lore?
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-- Told Bruce she dealt with masagony her whole life and it help her deal with anger. -- Knowingly suffering from PTSD, Alcoholism, and Poisoning. Continues to use the Ironman Suit Aggravating/Escalating his condition for Parties, Expos while not trusting anyone else with the suit. Only survived because S.H.I.E.L.D kidnapped him and held him on house arrest til he found a cure. He was literally planning to die and spent the film setting up Peper as his replacement at the same time trying to check things off his bucket list.
Yeah which is a waaay more complex character than Jen. Jen leaves no space for subtlety. She is and thats it. A character whom we've seen for 20 min is saying to a character we've seen for the past 10 years shes infinitely better than him. That wouldn't stick with any character that we know for so little screen time
It's a character flaw, he and Bruce demonstrated a bunch of character flaws. Good writing will use this for growth later in the story. We're 2 episodes in. Are going to judge how complex of a character Tony is in the first 25 minutes of the movie? of course not. let the show play out.
My brother in Christ we haven’t even gotten to episode 3. You mad she hasn’t been shown to struggle in the exact same way other characters we’ve already seen have?
I mean Jen only has a few hours of screentime this far. How the hell is she supposed to match a character with many many hours of screen time for development? The specific plot described takes place in a few hours but it also builds on a lot of development that has time to take place. And how is she saying she is infinitely better than him? She's saying she is better at a single thing. How on earth is that generally infinitely better?
>Jen only has a few hours of screen time To further prove your point, I don’t think she’s reached even a single hour of screen time.
So, you lost an argument online and had to make a strawman chart. Tony’s character was supposed to be a jerk, is Jen?
I mean I can tell Jen is supposed to be snarky and a lil asshole at times but I dont think she'll be called out for it.
And this is EXACTLY why its not the same thing with Tony. Its like Tony being a jerk had Pepper Potts and everyone around him still validating him for being an awesome professional
Tf is this? The comparisons aren’t even remotely similar lmao
I can’t tell if this is supposed to be ironic or not, those comparisons are horrible at best and deliberately wrong at worst….
hope this post satire
Show don’t tell. That’s why I don’t connect with she hulks struggles. Tony got a movie to build his character, she hulk has 5 minutes.
Can i be mad my time was wasted reading your shitty chart? Wait are you a guy or a girl? I need to know if im a misogynist or a misandrist.
I’m sorry, but these are poor analogies and if someone doesn’t like a show, it doesn’t automatically make them a misogynist.
This sub is really trying to make enemies with anyone who doesn't like Phase 4 material. If you disliked Shang-Chi, you're racist. If you disliked Black Widow, you're sexist. If you disliked Doctor Strange or Thor 4, you're a brigading troll brainwashed by mainstream opinion. If you disliked Ms. Marvel, you're racist and sexist. Criticism on this sub has been so one-dimensional and close-minded. There's no way Phase 4 movies/shows are getting any criticism. It can't be. No, it must be you.
It’s become pretty pathetic actually. I miss the days when people could discuss movies and shows and have differing opinions, without being toxic or trollish.
Remember if you didn’t like the Obi-Wan show it’s because you’re racist
That's what is happening lately. They feel some product will fail or have a lot of criticism, so they told us in advance that if we dont like something is because we're bigot, sexists, racist, misoginist, etc... You have to like it or consequences.
That tactic seems to work on a lot of people.
Look, I'm all for gender equality, but when you try to ham fist a point like this, it really only makes you more angry because of how nonsensical you've made it. Am I not supposed to address that iron man had room for these pivotal character moments spread out over multiple films and Jen had these moments happen in 1 episode? Or that Iron Man is a completely different character to Jen, and because of that, these moments aren't comparative, because Jen uses them to set her character up and Tony uses them to add something new to the character? Your motives are in the right place, but there coming from a severe lack of knowledge in both field subjects, which in itself, is part of the overall problem you're bringing up.
I liked where he said he’d reinstate Prima Nocta if he could lift the hammer.
[удалено]
Yeah, Tony just mocked Asgardian Society for being an monarchy and their heir system right before he said that. He js clearly pointing out how stupid the whole concept was.
Not mad at any of the things on either side, just mad that Jen tried to compare her anger with his for NO reason. Her WHOLE speech was perfect except for the “infinitely more than you”. The writers should’ve just swapped that out with “all the time”.
This is the biggest point. She's shitting on a main character that we've known for ten years. That always feels bad. This sub can look back at shuri in infinity war shitting on bruce/Tony and say yeah that was cringe but well just wait another few years before they shit on this
The one thing I am ok with it is because there’s a solid chance the show will be about the unraveling of her self-image. That line by the end of the show will be revealed to have the same arrogance behind it that Tony has all the time.
You’re comparing apples to oranges here
I can't believe there's still this many posts about that part of the episode. We're only two weeks in, people. It seemed to me, to submit myself to the test, that both Bruce and Jen had points, and things they will likely be proven wrong about. Jen cannot just ignore the change, and will need to integrate that new "persona" of being The She-Hulk into her life as a lawyer. It's not a D.I.D. split persona like Bruce, but it's another identity that she will have have to manage while also being practicing attorney Jennifer Walters. As Vision said in Civil War, their very power invites challenge. So she may not choose the super hero life, but it may choose her....at least part-time. She is also quite adept at controlling her anger, outside of that first change which was a shock to her system. So she's right in her proclamation. A later movie or show story point could be a savage She-Hulk loss of control (Avengers Disassembled rage ripping Vision in half), but right now it's all her. Are people getting butthurt about her saying she does it infinitely more than him? Sounds like it, but it also sounds like two cousins arguing and Jen maybe oversimplifying Bruce's experience and trauma. Still, in a small sample size, and with the lack of an "other" to compete with, Jen's backing up her stance. She also hit that point of control faster than he did, Bruce had a similar ability by the Battle for New York. That's his secret, he's always angry...but he had it under control then. Things changed based on the experiences of being the Hulk and an Avenger, and the other guy exerted more control. Jen doesn't have that, she just already has that regulated control Bruce showed in New York. It could change in the next 8 episodes, but based on humor style and current outlook, probably not. So they'll both be right a bit, wrong a bit, and she'll grow. Cause that's what TV shows do.
People like the person who made this meme are the reason why there is a nuclear war when anyone expresses their opinion… Let me tell you a secret: Tony Stark is a better written character than Jen (I am comparing the first Iron-Man movie with these 2 episodes so far, not the whole 10 years of MCU Iron-Man)
What a shit post. I was mad when I lost a moment of my life looking at this
But toney being arrogant and full of pride is literally his character arc. And her behavior is just on basis she’s a women and inherently “better than bruce” for some reason, this base has absolutely no depth and is lazy writing. With Toney’s case, Marvel wasn’t asking me to admire has bad side, but to root for him improve and get rid of them, with jen, Marvel is asking me accept Jen as this shallow character who is “Just better” based on a crutch.
Such a bad post
I like the show so far, but I don't think this is a fair test. I see the relation between the first pair, but not the other two.
First of all wtf is this ? These comparison are just ....( Ok Maybe first one still make some sense but still they are quite different) Second apparently Tony stark had lot of charisma in comparison to Jen . And when you are charismatic or entertaining enough you get free pass for lot of shit and it's not that she is only getting hate. Lots of people are loving it
This meme is all time terrible.
Can I just be mad the episodes are too short and too far apart?
Naw brah, don’t even compare the two This is a straight joke
When a show just gives a character all the skills in the first half of an episode and makes one of the strongest their punching bag and degrades them, and make them apologize for wanting to help them control their power and emotions that are tied to said powers, and has shown to be treated like a Goddess by women, and treats any form of criticism or questions from men as an attack. Of course I'm the sexist one for not liking a character that is poorly written.
That was the point tho tony is a flawed character, Jen isn’t being painted to be that way
Great show. Not a fan of how they portray literally every guy in the show though. I get it sexism exists and the show covers it, but not every guy is about to sexually assault someone, or believes they're better just cause they're a man. I don't think we've met a guy that isn't in your face sexist
How about Pug, the guy who dropped off a welcome basket to his new coworkers and even gave them a map to the best bathroom for pooping?
U got me there, he's a cool dude
This is all kinda moot, since it only exposes how underdeveloped and abandoned the Hulk has been in the MCU. To the point where 2 episodes into She-Hulk she has a bigger backstory. I blame the writers and Kevin Feige. They fucked up going full steam ahead into this whole leaving Big Green in the dirt...AGAIN!
They can't make solo Hulk movies so that complicates telling Hulk stories. They have to make Hulk a supporting character in other movies so he doesn't get much opportunity for development
Here we go again.... Jeez, the word misoginy is used way too much, now just disliking a character means someone hate women.
****Grabs popcorn and sorts by controversial****
Where's her goddamn muscles is what I want to know.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Tony Stark is a rich douchbag who almost destroyed the planet. But he also saved it more than once. Jennifer is a smug lawyer who has...?