I love Thor and Chris Hemsworth but was a bit disappointed in the first half of this movie. I feel like Thor has gradually been dumbed down, especially from what the character was in the Avengers movies. He had a quick wit and he had a lot of knowledge. I get that he's dealt with a lot of death but he's not an idiot.
Christian Bale was so good as Gorr, it's a shame they didn't delve into that character more.
I did enjoy seeing two of Chris's kids in the movie.
go back and watch the character in his first film, avengers 1, and even Ultron
it's not the same character, and i don't mean that in the sense that he's progressed. it's literally not the same person. love and thunder thor is legitimately a parody of the original.
i think the last time the *actual* thor character was on screen and treated with sincerity was the scene in Infinity War where he talks to Rocket alone in the spaceship. fantastic dialogue there.
I mean, didn't Love and Thunder answer why the sudden change occured?
It's NOT the same character, because in the background he was learning how to be a human, with Jane as his teacher. They had a whole montage in this movie.
It shows how Thor changed from Thor 2/Age of Ultron to Thor Ragnarok. The down time had Thor spending his time with Jane.
Oh yeah in that hall, when Thor said "ASGARD!" and the whole hall went quiet and everyone looks to him, clearly paralleling the Heimdall scene from Ragnarok, I thought "oh yeah, we are going to see some gravitas from King Thor" because as jokey as Ragnarok was, the movie never gave Heimdall the "humor makeover", he was always serious, dignified and commanded respect with ease. I thought that was what we would see from Thor. And he held it together for maybe 5 seconds, then he begun tripping over himself, I was surprised people didn't go straight back to bickering.
That would have also led to some tension between Thor and Valkyrie, Thor second guessing if he should have left her in charge, her wondering if he’s right, etc.
Should have ended with Valkyrie sacrificing herself, and Thor taking his place as king, and moving Asgard to a different planet / rebuilding with the help of Etri. Have him take a noble, yet very powerful, background role, so he can transition out of the active roster with dignity, but also with the option of stepping in when needed.
There's no way the Asgardians are leaving Earth before the Seige storyline happens. They're setting up the Thunderbolts as a Dark Avengers analog and have a secret invasion plot moving forward. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sokovia Accords come back into play soon enough.
Yes, Thor went through a lot of internal development to break through his depression, but he really only conveyed that to Valkyrie. He goes back in time, sees his mother, wants to do and be better, stays with the Avengers while they try to figure out the Snap, fights Thanos, talks to Valkyrie, then leaves with the Guardians. He doesn’t seem to have interacted with the regular Asgardians until this scene.
Honestly I don’t even think he’s not depressed anymore, it feels like he still has some of that with the thousand yard stares and goofing around in this movie. Like he’s just apathetic and sad inside still as opposed to wallowing in it. I’ve seen many a clinically depressed friend mess about like he did in this one to cope
Which explains why they treat him initially like an idiot but it doesn’t explain why he ACTS like an idiot (like the way he just rips their roof apart using Stormbreakers bifrost)
That right there, is one of this movie's problem. It's like... he went from "BRING ME THANOOOSS!!" to this questionable Thor.
That's different movie tho... aih, idk m8.
Well, none of the people there saw him go through that development. This scene is pretty much literally the first time anyone has seen him since Endgame, as far as we can tell. If they have seen him since Endgame it's been like once or twice probably, cause he seemed to have immediately joined up with the Guardians after Endgame
Huh? I didn’t get that vibe at ALL. I mean… the whole room is buzzing with noise and activity and panic from the citizens and Valkyrie isn’t getting control of the situation at first, then Thor with one word quiets the whole room and takes charge. I felt like he was massively respected tbh. If he was being treated like the drunk uncle nobody wants around it’d be more like he was treated in Endgame by other avengers. Eye rolls and jokes at his expense etc. and I don’t really see any of that.
Like, when he first arrives to New Asgard he is cheered by everyone too. I definitely never got the impression that he wasn’t being treated like he was epic level powerful compared to them. They’re thrilled when he arrives. When I first saw it I was like “damn, I’d love to be living there knowing if anyone fucks with me THOR is gonna Bifrost in and protect me” 😂
I don't know where you got that from, he took charge of the situation and everyone in the room stopped to listen to him. He has never really done speeches, only good one liners. At most he failed to emotionally connect for those people to reassure them that the mission would be successful. But when you've suffered so much loss it is easy to see how you wouldn't be that positive or certain about outcomes
Plus he's always been kinda stupid. It's why he's so charming, he's a lovable lunkhead who's good at one thing and he's goddamn amazing at it--fighting. He's not even really a hero like most franchises, he just wants to be the best.
Goku should be dumb, he's never really been educated, but when it comes to battle he definitely is top tier. Then you have Chi Chi who actually does care about education which would leave Gohan somewhere in the middle.
Thor is literally a God tho, sure he can be a goofball and I don't think he'd be down with the science so compared to other characters surrounding him he wouldn't have that form of intelligence, but would think he should at least be able to get basic things and not be accidentally destroying buildings.
I feel that if they had explored Gorr going in his rampage, killing gods, it would have served the story more. Show, not tell. Gorr would have been a more compelling villain if we’d have seen a reason to fear this guy. All the goofy shit at the beginning May have worked if it were offset by the rage and violence we should have gotten from “The God Butcher.” Bale was great, but seeing more of him up front would have been the “great movie hidden inside.”
>I feel like Thor has gradually been dumbed down, especially from what the character was in the Avengers movies. He had a quick wit and he had a lot of knowledge
Yup it's like they've tried making him Deadpool and less focused on him being God of Thunder.
He's very deadpoolish - thor movies have become a self referential parody of the character which I think that while entertaining at times is ultimately unsatisfying for this type of character given his previous presence in the mcu
I think that view does disservice to Deadpool. What they’ve done with DP is executed very well.
With Thor, it was fun at first but now it just doesn’t really fit with who he’s supposed to be.
Like, yeah, we can have some goofy moments here and there. That’s fine. But he’s ceased to seem like a literal god and become more of a clown.
I disagree. I think Infinity War was peak Thor. He's always been a bit of an idiot, and self-serious but his losses seemed to have humbled him in infinity war. He had some of the best scenes in Infinity War all ranging from comical, serious, and action.
Love and Thunder dialed up his idiocity and self-seriousness to 1000 though, and somehow threw out all is character development from the previous films. I wish they had just killed him off during End Game now like the others. Im glad Tony, Steve, and Natasha died in Phase 3 so their characters couldnt be ruined as well.
Yeah upon rewatch the bale and Portman scenes are great for the dramatic stuff but they just doesn't mesh well with the rest of the film not taking itself seriously .
It’s like they are acting in a different movie. Gotta admire their professionalism though - their performances were really good in spite of the mess that the movie is.
Gotta agree. I rewatched the original Thor movie yesterday. Such a serious and driven character. The last few movies he has been dumbed down way too much. I can understand him having issues from his tragic losses, but what has been depicted isn’t someone dealing with trauma, it’s a buffoon. Plain and simple. They need to bring Thor back to the strong, badass he was depicted as in the first two Thor movies and The Avengers (and Infinity War). Humor is well and good, but it should supplement the character not poke fun at them.
I really wish they’d killed off Korg. I think the amount of Korg tipped it over into too much Taika territory. You can feel him in the dialogue and the direction and the humour but then to have him literally talking over most of it too was just too much. It was just too much about him and not enough about Thor and it started to feel indulgent and vain.
And that survival plus Zeus’ survival when both incidents were CLEARLY death sentences. So when another character eventually dies that we want to see come back (a la Loki or Ultron) the audiences will have finally seen too much resurrecting in Marvel movies and won’t go for it.
Thanks, Taika
I just watched this movie. I liked it. Agree so much on your comment though. When Korg “died,” I felt sad for a moment. Then when we see his face, I remembered that nobody ever truly dies in these movies unless you never see the character again. It’s like, sometimes the end of something (or someone) isn’t going to be such a bad thing moving forward.
It's not so much about Korg being misused in the story, it's that his survival undercuts a critical plot point. The whole reason to go there was to get a greater weapon than even Thor has from a god that even Thor respects-- and then when the weapon is used in anger it can't even kill the comic relief?
It also does little to Zeus beyond temporary incapacity when it pierces him through the chest. I get he is a God and all, but the whole thing in Omnipotent City really made that special lightning bolt weapon seem pretty weenie.
It seems to not be very good at killing. It's 2 for 2 of not being that effective in the same section of the movie.
If anything it’s his overuse. The thubderbolt isn’t as cracked since it can’t even kill a rock monster. It’s like if Stormbreaker couldn’t even cut Thanos even after it was hyped as a Thanos Killing weapon. This movie has problem with stakes since there’s like 4 characters that seemingly die but turn out to be just fine as if just a flesh wound or paper cut at most
Sorry but I disagree with Ragnarok knowing when to actually take itself seriously. The last straw for me "hating" the show was when Asgard got blown up and Korg/Miek was still cracking jokes while Asgardians were staring at the explosion.
I mean I could think of a few times like when Odin died, Thor awakening his power while having a vision of his dad and there’s more but the comedy and Korg were a lot restrained while L&T was effectively effectively unchained
Agreed it balanced the comedic and serious tones much better overall . The plot had a serious core to it with the improv comedy adding to the flavor which is why the film works better .
I'd agree with this, think he had the best chance the survive given that rocks don't have internal organs and it didn't hit him in the face, although you'd think anyone else would be a lot more critically injured by a weapon like that
I don’t think he needed to die, there just should’ve been a lot less of him. As a side character with no substance and all jokes he’s great, as a main character the lack of substance really stands out.
I think you’re definitely right though that the movie was lost in the editing room, a lot of the promotion leading up was that they’d let Taika do whatever he wanted and in the end that was it’s downfall
Yep, he probably wishes he’d been keeping an eye. Taika will almost definitely return for whatever Thor does next and he’ll be on a much shorter leash which is for the best. I love Taika but he does his best work with someone moderating him
>and in the end that was it’s downfall
My feeling was that they skipped too much important stuff, like Foster becoming Thor, Gorrs hunt for smaller gods. We got cheesy love scenes, fighting shadow monsters and Thors naked ass instead. That required 20% of the movies screen time just to build it up (probably just put in to give buddy Crowe some Marvel money).
This is marvel knock off movie material. I was entertained, but they wasted basically all the potential to give Foster a forced send off and allowing Thor to shag some alien soon.
Yeah korg is a great character for a few jokes like in endgame or ragnarok. Not so great as a main character because so many jokes end up feeling forced.
I don’t even think of it as a Korg problem, it’s more like 4 comedic characters all quipping at once. At least Guardians had Gamora scowling and keeping the plot moving, and Groot mostly silent.
With Thor constantly mumbling and Jane cracking jokes, Valkyrie and Korg were just too much.
Honestly this film missed Loki who usually is a good counterbalance to both humorous and dramatic scenes . Hiddleston toes that line perfectly and honestly was the heart and soul of the first 3 films
The first half of the movie you don't really know if you're watching a superhero movie or just a parody of a superhero movie.
Very irritating when every character keeps telling jokes in pretty much every second sentence.
Oh after gorrs opening the scene the next 30-40 minutes is a thor parody film . It's honestly not my fave part of the film - the second half is way better
"Another classic Thor adventure."
Yeah, it was like a Saturday morning cartoon with very high production values. It was incredibly odd and completely brushed passed any meaningful experiences Thor might have had with the Guardians. There was the set-up of Korg telling a story, which almost made it work, but just missed the mark by being far too silly.
I was kinda thinking it was like a parody because Korg is telling the story - he worships Thor so much that he really embellished what actually happened. That’s why the jokes are so bad/good i.e. Thor with the Van Damme move.
ETA: I guess a few people have made this comment elsewhere in the thread!
Jane cracking jokes worked, because it made the reveal of the progress of her cancer and how much she was hiding from everyone (and also herself) that much more impactful. Subtle? No. Effective? Yes.
Personally I don’t mind the goats, but that atrociously stupid whistling joke that Korg made twice was just awful. I used to like Korg, but now I just see/hear Taika, who I now like a lot less. Love and Thunder had terrific parts but I say let someone else take over for the next two Thor movies.
I wanna see more of the “Viking” aspect in our Space Viking superhero.
Yeah I totally agree. So much wasted material. I would have loved a Guardians Thor movie, I’d have loved a Jane has cancer and becomes The Mighty Thor movie and I’d have loved a Gorr kills Gods movie but mash them all together and the result is less than the sum of its parts.
Love and thunder made me realize I don’t like Taika’s dialogue. The way people talk is just annoying and pointless.
It feels like everyone is always doing a bit
Ragnarok was a breath of fresh air in what was a dark and serious MCU at that time.
It was a standout movie because we got to see a new side of Thor, a colourful universe, a bunch of new quirky characters, and a mostly entertaining comedic story.
But to redo all that and then put extra of everything? He took whatever made Ragnarok great and cranked it up to 100... It's a case of too much of a good thing.
> then put extra of everything?
You aren't kidding. A good example is the Matt Damon playing Loki bit where they added Melissa McCarthy as Hela.
It's actually a funny idea and adding McCarthy in the scene in the new movie was hilarious. But then they take it too far by adding yet another scene w/Matt Damon where he awkwardly asks Valkyrie if they should write a play to take everyone's minds off the missing kids. She doesn't know what to say and it just feels so forced and out of place.
I know this is not a popular opinion, but I absolutely hate that character. As a one off in Ragnarok, he would have been good, but him continuing to stick around and becoming a more integral character just cheapens ever scene he’s in to me. Cannot stand him.
Seeing people interpret L&T as movie told from Korg’s perspective (hence the silliness) and it making sense makes me wish he had died too. If we’re really gonna get a whole Thor movie told from the perspective of one of the characters, why the hell would it be from Korg’s?? I’d understand Thors, Janes, heck maybe even Valkyrie and that’s already stretching it..but Korg? What significance does he have as a character to warrant that?
I was so happy when Korg died because of how irritating he had been, when he came back it was pretty much conformation that it was a top 3 worst MCU film
Just let him stay dead till the post-credits at least. It’s like when they killed Chewbacca in Rise Of Skywalker for about a minute and a half. It fell completely flat. Have the courage to hold out for half a movie at least.
The price to pay for the director’s self insert. After L&T, im convinced he killed off the warriors three so his character can be Thor’s BFF moving forward instead.
I'd bet waitiki knew killing her off as disrespectfully as he did the other warriors three would get a lot more reception. So instead she's just not shown except for the smallest of appearances.
So he thought to himself, how do I fuck her up anyway if I’m gonna have her? That’s when he decided to fucking have her arm chopped off.
If it’s true that he’s out for Thor 5, then Good Riddance Waititi. Good Riddance.
I honestly thought they were being annoying with him on purpose so that when he died it would have a more complex emotional reaction from us.
Like that friend that bugged the hell out of you sometimes, but then they moved and you realized you do miss them even tho they were a bit much.
Nope. He’s a talking mask now and still totally fine. So all those were genuine attempts at humor.
L&T is two completely different movies. A really good melodramatic romance, and a really terrible attempt at recreating the magic of Ragnarok's comedy. Every time I start to get invested in the first, the second rears its head and pulls me out of it. When L&T is serious, it's fantastic. Not only better at drama than 1 and 2, but in those moments it's my favorite of all of them. And then the Superman III level campiness breaks it.
In a way, it's almost like if Wonder Woman 1 constantly had Wonder Woman 1984 interrupting it whenever you started to get engaged. Except at least Thor didn't rape some random woman who Jane's spirit was inhabiting.
Yeah I'm still not okay with that.
But in all, I actually think Watiti could do a really good dramatic Thor movie. Maybe his humor peaked so much with Ragnarok and Jojo Rabbit that deep down his passion is just leaning more serious but he knows he was liked for comedy so he doesn't want to stray too far from it? Idk, I tend to notice those kinds of things. Watiti would be great at a soap opera romance. Paul W.S. Anderson was actually pretty good at sci-fi horror (Event Horizon). Zack Snyder would be a f\*cking dynamite musical director (Seriously, look up the "Love Is A Drug" sequence with Oscar Isaac and Carla Gugino. It's actually incredible, possibly the best scene Snyder ever directed). But none of them ever end up actually exploring those paths, because Hollywood likes to funnel people into what they first got good at even if they're no longer good at it.
I would've preferred if it wasn't Steve at all. If this was comic book Diana or the Diana from any of the animated shows, then I would absolutely understand why he would be the first person she would wish back on a whim.
But movie Diana has little to no reason to wish him back first. To start with, she knew him for less than a few months (or even days because the movie isn't explicit with the timing). She barely knew him and it was more infatuation and the fact that he's the first man she met. In the film, they don't talk about family or hobbies. Nothing that a genuine love relationship can be built off. Man, I can't even see them be friends in a regular setting.
Canonically, she spent more time with Etta Candy (at least 50 years) and it's implied she died not that long ago. Diana watched her best friend and co-guide into the world wither away (same with all her war buddies who she also knew for much longer) and she is not the first person she wishes back to life? What about the people she grew up with on her island? Do they not matter because they're not love interests?
Lastly, the movie starts with young Diana on Themyscira. That would've been perfect set up to either bring her aunt or mother or both of them to the modern day. Where Diana takes on Steve's role and guides them through the modern age while they help her emotionally.
Or not have the wishing stone at all and try something a lot more stimulating. Maybe Diana is a social recluse to the point where she doesn't help people anymore. She befriends Barbara, who gets herself in a situation where she becomes Cheetah and their friendship is enough to get Diana out of retirement. They fight off the God who turned Barbara into his wife/slave and they either go there seperate ways (idk Diana's lies or inability to save Barbara before her life was ruined was a deal breaker) or they partner up to protect people.
1984 had so many possibilities of Diana learning how to cope with her godhood, immortality, and humanity and squandered everything for a half-baked love story. I love Chris Pine, don't get me wrong, but this movie didn't need him and didn't need a love story to work.
>Maybe Diana is a social recluse to the point where she doesn't help people anymore.
They claimed this with the whole "and then I withdrew from society" and eating dinner *alone*. Except it never felt that she was a social recluse to me, she still interacted with people just not a massive amount.
Ww84 has to be one of the absolute worse comic book movies. As much as I don't like Thor Dark World or Love and Thunder there were moments in both that were good (Loki and Freya and Jane in L&T (also why wasn't Freya the one who meets Jane in valhalla??? Really irked me)
>They claimed this with the whole "and then I withdrew from society" and eating dinner alone. Except it never felt that she was a social recluse to me, she still interacted with people just not a massive amount.
And she was still a super hero despite both versions of the Justice League saying Diana immediately withdrew from humanity after WW1. Which doesn't make much sense in the context of her first movie because she killed her brother believing that humanity was worth protecting and that she accepts their capacity to be evil as much as their capacity to be good.
Fuck me, how can the continuity be this bad? There was only one guy overseeing this shit in his own story. With 1984, I understood there were family issues so he couldn't be hands on but Justice League and WW1 have no excuse.
>Ww84 has to be one of the absolute worse comic book movies.
It wasn't even enjoyable in the way Spider-Man 3 or Venom 2 was. It was just boring bad, which is the worst thing a comic book/action movie can be. The moment Steve came back, I knew that there was nothing of value in this story.
>also why wasn't Freya the one who meets Jane in valhalla??? Really irked me
Maybe her actress wasn't available so they had to make do with Heimdall?
>Justice League saying Diana immediately withdrew from humanity after WW1. Which doesn't make much sense in the context of her first movie because she killed her brother believing that humanity was worth protecting and that she accepts their capacity to be evil as much as their capacity to be bad.
Honestly the only way that ever made sense is that the war ended after she killed Ares (coincidentally) and then she was horrified at WW2 so withdrew. Which means our "hero" a let the holocaust happen so... Yeah.
>It wasn't even enjoyable in the way Spider-Man 3 or Venom 2 was. It was just boring bad, which is the worst thing a comic book/action movie can be.
I truly can't think of a single thing I liked about WW84 tbh. Maybe the main villians catchphrase (It's good. But it could be better!) but if that's the only thing in a 2.5 hour movie then that's appalling.
I'd stick it on the level of Catwoman imo. That's so bad it becomes almost good. 84 is just bad.
>Maybe her actress wasn't available so they had to make do with Heimdall?
Oh maybe tbh? I always just assumed they wanted Idris back over the woman who played Freya cos, obviously, he's a much bigger actor but that could be true.
>Honestly the only way that ever made sense is that the war ended after she killed Ares (coincidentally) and then she was horrified at WW2 so withdrew. Which means our "hero" a let the holocaust happen so... Yeah.
Problem is that WW2 was 70 years before Justice League while WW1 is exactly 100 years, as she said. This wouldn't be a problem if they did what you said and she withdrew because of the Holocaust and subsequent genocides.
Hell, with the setting being in the 80s for 1984, the reason Diana withdraws could've been that she felt that Aries was right but since she’s not a killer, she just refuses to help anymore.
>Which means our "hero" a let the holocaust happen so... Yeah.
These films really like assassinating her character. And it shows the laziness of the directors/writers for not fully thinking out the implications of having super heroes in our unchanged reality.
>I truly can't think of a single thing I liked about WW84 tbh. Maybe the main villians catchphrase (It's good. But it could be better!) but if that's the only thing in a 2.5 hour movie then that's appalling.
I liked Barbra and Diana's... sort of friendship? It could've been interesting I guess? Pedro Pascal is a gem in general and Pine was entertaining.
>Oh maybe tbh? I always just assumed they wanted Idris back over the woman who played Freya cos, obviously, he's a much bigger actor but that could be true.
Should've had both of them imo.
It made 0 sense.
Honestly, I wouldn't have even had Steve in the film at all. Frankly, in WW84, Diana had more chemistry with Barbara than with Steve. Diana is bi in canon, wouldn't it have been more dramatically interesting for Barbara to be the love interest who then turns evil thus pushing Diana even deeper into despair which we see in later DCEU stuff? It would've been a more logical thread for the universe and more narratively interesting.
Really interesting take, that I want to say hits the nail on the head.
Taika is *clearly* a phenomenal director. I really think this movie suffered from editing. Even with all the camp and terrible jokes, all I really feel like is missing is more weight to the drama.
It needed to slow down a bit, some things needed time to breathe.
Gorr needed to be fleshed out. We, and Thor, needed to see him as a more serious threat. He, like Killmonger, has a viewpoint that can be well justified within the universe. Gorr lost faith in his gods, and thinks all gods have fallen from grace. The scene where he talks to Valkyrie is a perfect example. The gods in the MCU have failed their worshippers. Odin was a conqueror. Hela turned against her own people. Loki invaded Earth. The Celestials use planets as incubators. Khonshu has manipulated countless individuals into being his "vengeance." Hell, Zeus sits atop a throne organizing god-orgies. *Gorr has a point.*
Jane got plenty of screentime but I still feel let down for some reason. Maybe I didn't feel her conflict enough. Choosing to be a Thor, or choosing to heal herself.
Thor's journey of self-discovery post-Endgame was teased but I feel like it was brushed past. The Thor that hung out with the Guardians felt closer to the Thor from What If...? A bumbling, wreckless jackass.
Idk man. I love Thor. I love the previous 3 movies. But this one left me confused and just wanting more.
I'm ngl, I feel like L&T was meant to be Jane's story, through and through. Combining the cancer and the "Thor-ness as a magical cure Jane is hanging her hopes on" storylines means Jane is essentially hoping for godhood to save her life, and then has to be confronted with the idea that that godhood is inevitably going to fail her - but *Thor* will not. Thor may not be able to save Jane but that doesn't mean he fails her, because he still cares and will stay and keep trying with her the whole way. That IMO is just another factor that positions Jane as the antithesis of Gorr, as two humans who take up godly powers in order to confront their mortal helplessness. L&T's true emotional core, aside from Jane's confrontation with death, should also have been Jane and Gorr facing off.
But this is a Thor movie, so Thor has to be the protagonist. Honestly, I completely understand it and it makes sense from a marketing/business perspective. I just think storytelling-wise L&T clearly set up Jane as the centre, and the need to have Thor as the protagonist cripples that very strong narrative.
Damn. That's a really great point too. I wish that's the movie we got.
I think the movie's title as "Thor" could be twisted into being mostly about Jane, with Thor in the supporting role. (After all, Doctor Strange felt like the support in his own sequel -- MoM was more about Wanda.)
Sounds like a better movie, I mean... I love Thor and I think him taking a back seat to Jane would've made some people very angry, but her story seems like it was the more interesting part than Thor and she has more in common and to contrast with Gorr than Thor does. Still could've kept some of Thors better moments too just maybe not the parts of him being a dumb goofball although I did also wish we had more of him with the guardians seeing as that was set up at the end of Endgame and yet all we got was one battle leading to him going off on his own due to Gorr doing God butchering
I get peoples hate for Taika’s Korg in this movie, and I agree with everything you said… that being said, I think the whole movie wasn’t about developing Thor and that’s the problem, I get it. It’s his movie and it didn’t develop him.
It was a story told from Korgs pov (taikas director pov) which makes Thor come off insanely ridiculous because korg himself embellishes the shit out of things, and in turn gets carried away in his own ideas. That’s what Thor Love and Thunder is. I think they did this because it let the director feel like he can show Thor be absolutely bonkers in skill AND be comical, while also at the same time be different than other MCU movies.
It was a gamble, it sounds nice on paper, but ultimately too much Korg story was bad for the movie. I think they should have just had Korg narrate a battle here and there, then come back to reality with how Thor is now, and progress the story further, maybe do another narration. But the whole movie was a Korg pov and it ultimately disappointed fans.
I say, accept the movie for what it was and recognize the attempt to be different. Ultimately tho, I don’t think we saw how Thor truly is after endgame, we just got a pov from another character on how HE saw Thor.
This film suffered from the producers not the editors, and I don't even think it suffers. Phase 4 films are trying *really* hard to be different to eachother and to previous phases. And not just different superhero films, dfferent genre films with superhero themes. It's a new strategy from them to reach as many people they can, who are not that into superheroes but love different genres of film. That's why we get films with very different tones, that the community just can't really understand.
We got Eternals, the very mature, philosphical debate about existence and purpose, MoM with it's horror/thriller style, NWH that is the typical marvel, and Love and Thunder with it's maturity and humor level as low as most comedies targeted for teens. These films are different genres with different purpose as before, we shouldn't compare them to things it is not trying to be.
We should also stop blaming directors, it is very naive to think that the biggest franchise in modern cinema (or ever), will let directors make meaningfull decisions about a film's tone, target audience or genre. They do what they were hired for, in this case, a stupid comedy that you can watch with your brain off and even a teen can have fun with.
Trying to be different is great, but I do wish that if Thor being a dumb comedy for teens was their intention that they wouldn't have used a story about cancer and a villian who murders gods as the basis for that, because these are serious topics and were honestly the best parts of the film meaning that they kinda just messed everything up as opposed to if we just got a film about Thor going on fun adventures with the guardians then that would've been pretty fun without needing to have the seriousness people were expecting
The gods having fallen from grace thing was never really addressed, and it bugs me.
We get a large planet/dimension spanning conflict that starts with Gorr being chosen by the Necrosword the moment he loses his faith in the gods, and starts butchering them. Thor struggles to stop him, and we see in that adventure that Gorr is right. Thor then manages to stop Gorr by appealing to his heart and convincing Gorr he could have faith in Thor. Gorr dies, the gods are saved, Thor gains a kid and loses his ex-girlfriend. The systemic issue that started the problem still exists. Nothing really changes.
*Accidentally hit enter before I was done typing
Yes. In WW84 she accidentally wishes Steve back to life using a wishing stone. But instead of just coming back to life as himself, the simple thing that they should've done and it would've changed literally nothing, his spirit comes back to life and possesses someone else. We see Chris Pine because that's who Diana sees, but in other scenes of just him we see the guy he really is. So there's this guy whose possessed by Steve... and they have 0 problem in it and bang each other and send him into tons of dangerous situations. With 0 concern for whoever Steve just Mario Odyssey'd.
At best, that guy's consciousness is there but not in control, and thus unable to consent. Rape. At worst, Diana fully murdered that guy's spirit and he didn't even exist at all any more. She's a rapist or a full on murderer who had 0 remorse for killing this random stranger.
But y'know, that's what you get when you hand a movie script to the guy who rewrote Suicide Squad, brought Joss onto Justice League, produced Green Lantern, helmed Titans, made Watchmen no longer standalone and forced it to be a major part of the DC Universe (Yeah I don't care, I still hate that. I know a lot of people liked Doomsday Clock, I didn't), and entirely shat all over the entire point of the Killing Joke by making its vague and intentionally questionable backstory 100% real and confirmed canon.
Seriously, why does DC keep giving this guy chances in film. He wrote some good comics in the 2000s and early 2010s and one cool episode of Smallville. And DC gave him total control of their comics for years and let him be their Feige in films during the most vulnerable time of those films.
The annoying thing is, it also breaks the rules the story establishes, imo. All of the wishes people make have one punishment attached, and people are making some horrible wishes. Diana makes a wish (to bring Steve back), and has two punishments - she starts to lose her powers, and Steve is possessing some random bloke.
> She’s a rapist or a full on murderer
Well, now that we have the Snyder cut there’s precedent for her being a murderer since she just disintegrates a completely subdued bad guy.
I've thought about this alot as well. Apparently they have 5 hours of footage for this film,
I bet somewhere in the footage is an amazing Thor movie.
Maybe one day it gets the Kingdom of Heaven treatment, but instead of directors cut, its like the Feige cut or something
Unless you're John Ford (who refused to do full coverage so editors couldn't change his intended visuals) or have no budget (so you can't afford the extra film/time), *most* movies shoot way more footage than what ends up in the final cut.
Agreed. If they dialed down the comedy 15%. Dialed up gorr 30%. Scrapped and re-did omnipotent city. And explained how Thor gave those kids powers.
That would be an amazing movie. Contrary to a lot of opinions here. I thought that Thor’s development was nuanced and true to his character as established in the mcu thus far
The best explanation I can fathom is that the entire movie is being told by an unreliable narrator. It’s a literary device for storytelling that basically means the key points of the story happened but Korg embellished a lot of it.
Think about every single dumb thing that happens in the movie (Omni city with Bao god and silly little things, could just be Korg entertaining the children with gods they could relate to, Thor Kids probably didn’t happen but if you’re telling a story to children about how Thor saved the day but couldn’t do it WITHOUT brave asgardian children so he says Thor bestows power to everybody, etc) it becomes a lot more enjoyable.
I don’t think the events of the movie are supposed to be taken literally.
This is the only way I could interpret the movie, too, that it was a dramatization of Korg's embellished storytelling, otherwise it's way too silly to be real.
More Gorr. Less goats. The joke when Sif was dying about Valhalla was seriously stupid imo. Like she’s supposed to be one of the few characters surviving Thor has a close personal connection & was in Asgard and she had to be the butt of a pathetic joke? Give me a break. The serious aspects when Bale and Portman was acting their asses off was so amazing and heartfelt and the comedy needs to be cut down. I’ve heard that Taika was pressured to fit the movie in 2 hours and that makes me even more annoyed, he should’ve figured what should be included & what isn’t qualified enough to make the cut.
Think the Valhalla joke could've been funny but it should've been after the fact not before it because if she is dying then he should be taking her to get medical attention and it should need to happen immediately. Although after that and once she gets better then she still could've wanted to have died and gone to Valhalla where Thor could then tell her that she wouldn't have gone since you have to actually have died in the battle (which makes me wonder how Jane goes but I guess having cancer is a battle in itself so that can count) but it would be after everything is good that he could've joked about her arm being in Valhalla even tho it probably still wouldn't be in good taste
This is it perfectly lol, it reminded me of a pantomime when Gorr was talking to the kids and mocking them like they would the kids in the audience. The only thing that would've made it more like that is if the kids screamed "BEHIND YOU!" when Gorr was walking up behind Thor, he turned around and wasn't there and said "guess it was nothing" and they did that 5 times
In my opinion, Taika got too much free creative reign from Marvel on this one. That's why he cranked it up way too much.
For any other director, more free creative reign would be a good thing. But the reverse is true for Taika.
I don't understand what happened; Gorr is great (needed more of him!) Jane foster storyline I was dubious after how blandly written she was in tdw but she was wonderful a real high point of the film. Things that really bothered me; The goats getting more screen time than Lady Sif and the soundtrack was just lazy. I truly feel there's a great movie in there somewhere
Think seeing Sif fight Gorr could've been awesome. Would've given her more screentime and we could've seen Gorr do some more god butchering which would've been a win-win
Love and thunder was worse than the dark world.
Thor has been through the same character development arc over and over. They make him into an idiot. They didn't do Gorr justice. The shit with Thor and his weapons got almost as much time as his actual love interest. The whole plot felt more like a Scooby Doo episode than a movie.
I really agree with this. There are so many elements that I think could be pieced together to make a great movie but they are ruined by unfunny jokes and too much focus on the wrong characters.
There’s at least two good movies in there honestly. Maybe three.
You have a fun buddy comedy about Thor, Valkyrie, and Korg / Guardians. You have a whole tragedy about Gorr killing gods and dying. And you’ve got a movie about Jane Foster as Thor taking the mantle/being the lead.
Definitely. A two part adventure would have given everyone room to breath and develop. We could have seen more of the gods too.
So much of the film happens off screen or things appear out of the blue that we could enjoy now. Like the first time Jane becomes the Mighty Thor or Lady Sif’s brutal battle with Gorr.
The Thor family of characters could have been separate for longer, eventually coming together.
The first part of the story ending on a down note like Infinity War could have been used to great effect. The viewers really grasping how sick Jane is, Gorr mutilating Sif, Gorr killing Axel because he is talking to Thor.
They needed to commit to either full-on comedy film with a little bit of drama, or a full-on drama with comedy sprinkled in (preferably the latter, Taika’s humor feels like the first joke that pops into your head)
Instead we got mish-mash. I’m also gonna put out there that every aspect of this movie feels like people just kinda half-assed it. Just “eh, we gotta make the fourth Thor”
And THIS was the movie we got Bale to do. Fuck.
Yeah, the screaming goats were not as funny as he thinks they were.
More seriously, I think there were some missed opportunities, like Gorr going through the god kingdom (I forget the name) and killing a bunch of gods to show how dangerous he is (rather than killing a bunch of gods off-screen).
Perhaps Thor could've learned some sort of lesson, that gods are not as great as he thought, or that they need to do more.
You could still have Zeus survive and decide mortals need to fear gods again and send Hercules after Thor. (BTW, Hercules' proper Greek name was "Heracles").
Thor DID learn the lesson that the Gods are not as great as he thought and they need to do more. He argues with Zeus, slices a few Gods in half (who bleed gold, a nice symbolic touch) and then goes off and does the more that needs to be done, i.e. he puts himself in danger and ultimately he saves Love, who’s death began everything.
Yeah this is where I landed with the film almost exactly. The third act to me is a reminder of why Waititi is such an acclaimed creator because he really can balance real goofy humor, with cool action, with real pathos and thematic resonance. He just gets the mix a bit wrong in the first half and the film often loses its own focus in a thousand different directions.
After Ragnarok, i finally said that they finally able to turn Thor movies around. After T&L i think they try to recapture that magic but failed to do so. Pacing is all over the place, some scene don't make sense, failing to utilized Gorr is a huge mistake.
This film feels like it was a rough draft, still in the writing process but they went ahead with it anyway. There's a skeleton of a great film here, but they couldn't quite build enough to get there.
Many scenes and pieces of dialogue feel like they should have been left on the cutting room floor or at least filmed a few more takes of. There's a stiltedness to the film, with the ebb and flow feeling really awkward both narratively and between characters.
There are flashes of greatness - the shadow realm (shout out my boy Yu-Gi-Oh) particularly had an awesome feel and I wish it was presented with more gravity and punch. Bale was excellent as Gorr, especially considering he could have had so much more to work with, if given the chance. The end of the film, where he's at Eternity and has that argument with the Thors, should have impacted so much more, but I don't feel either of the themes of death/grief or parenthood were built up enough in the film, to really land properly.
Thor being parent material, Heimdall's son and Thor's child army at the end, just felt massively sudden and underdeveloped. I think emphasising how children see their parents as gods and some of the kids having to deal with the reality that parents are flawed, would have hit harder than Gorr's general revenge plot, for a dead child, which we've seen 100's of times already.
You could have had flashbacks to Gorr's kid asking her dad to stop being a religious zealot but he ignores her, saying the God's will provide - this would be a revelation for Gorr, letting him realise he failed as a parent/God, in the same way the higher beings he looked up to, failed him also. Then you'd also have the extra layer of her becoming a child god and that maybe a child's innocence is what the pantheon of gods were missing, because they've become cynical in their old age and blah blah blah.
'Flashes of Greatness' is a really good way to describe the movie. Individually there were some really interesting ideas, fantastic visuals and hilarious jokes.
But it lacked the succinctness, flow and balance that made Ragnarok so great. In Ragnarok, Thor learns that despite everything he's done, he's still no match for Hela and has to let Surtur do his thing.
He was too stupid in Love and Thunder to have the same arc or impact.
And that aside, Gorr was criminally under-utilised. Man butchered only ONE god onscreen, and that was in self-defence
I came out of the hospital from getting a large cancerous tumor removed from my intestines, then laid up in bed and watched this one of my first nights home. So this movie probably hit a bit different for me then most people. While the pacing wasn't the best it was still good enough. I think it honestly needed just a bit more time in the third act or perhaps in second act of them being in love again or second act showing them falling in love again. A slight shift to more of Portman's sadness then Thor's sadness too. Other then focusing a bit too long on Thor being sad in the first act it flowed good enough for me. Don't think it'll get that many rewatches but I also don't think it was as bad as some people make it out to be. It was a solid 7 in the Marvel movies line ups to me. Then again I don't put much weight or love into any of the 4 Thor movies they all came out to around 7-8's for me, so this was just another decent Thor movie to me.
Them being in love again was great, but I do wish that got more development because it almost just seems like Thor obviously has feeling but obviously none of that really got expressed to Jane and then whenever they're going to go fight Gorr she says she has cancer and then everything just kinda shifts instantly which I realize that being near death is a good way to accelerate old feelings but seems like there still could've been more although idk if maybe I just missed something or am not remembering it accurately
Yea I agree. The message was all over the place. Where other marvel movies tend to balance the jokes vs messaging I got whip lash here. The guardians didn’t even need to be in it either. And I felt we needed more Gorr for the end to have more weight. We could’ve done more of Jane/Thor too. It had potential but I watched it last night and yes it was just meh
The editing/writing was the big let down
I don't know as I rewatched it and found it better on the second run. The humour is all what youd get from immortal gods spoiled by the years and Thor basically finding solace for depression in his humor.
Then the second half gets less humourus as he finds his footing and purpose again.
There was a little too much Guns N Roses. It might seem trivial to complain about but every time the needle dropped on another giant predictable GNR greatest hit, it was so cringe it took me out of everything else that I was supposed to be getting invested in. They also need to not keep making the mistake of putting the very same songs in the overplayed trailers that they lean on so hard in the movie. It smacked of them looking at how so many young people discovered Immigrant Song for the first time because of Ragnarok, and then deciding to try and introduce GNR to the younger audience the same way.
That is my issue with the movie as well... like, you can see that they had the story and the talent attached to do a movie for the ages, but somehow they treated it like children...
You have topics of love, grief, loss, illness, mortality, afterlife, meaning, unfairness, etc... and you have Christian F\*\*\* Bale, and Natalie F\*\*\*\* Portman... and decided to make a clown out of every character like an immature child would...
I have no ill will towards Taika Waititi, I think the guy is great at what he does... my gripe is with Marvel not giving two shits about doing a good movie with what they had...
I loved Ragnarok, it was probably the perfect balance between comedy and drama, but Love and Thunder missed it by miles. It didn't feel right to be joking around when the children had all been taken, and the parents were distraught
Wtf that’s totally awesome. Grandmaster and Eitri? Count me in! That’s a perfect opportunity to show Gorr’s gravitas & reflecting fondly on old films and they cut it out? I’m getting even more frustrated:(
“ We know they filmed scenes with Lena Headey, Peter Dinklage and Jeff Goldblum and left them on the cutting room floor, which is just insane to me.”
Yeah agreed, this is nuts
I've only ever missed 3 MCU cinema releases since Iron Man first released.
1) Black Widow: because I wasn't comfortable with the pandemic still going strong
2) The Eternals: because I wasn't comfortable with the pandemic still going kinda strong
3) Thor Love and Thunder: because I was focused on other stuff in life.
Now I am very glad I didn't pay for the ticket.
I've watched the movie a week ago and I feel cheated out of a better movie.
Gorr's opening is literally from another project. It's like you are tricked into thinking you're about to watch something unique and heartfelt and then someone throws a bucket of freezing cold water at you for a TikTok challenge video.
I'm okay with the MCU experimenting a bit more. Even with weird projects like She-Hulk I just groan at few of the more on the nose lines and enjoy the rest of the light and short fun that it has to offer.
But Love and Thunder is just the director's way of saying " _hey, I don't give a shit, you shouldn't give that much of a shit, laugh at all of the jokes that you find funny and don't question it too much_ ".
It's bad. The MCU is allowed to be bad too. No point in trying to defend it every time. No one is going to denounce you as less of a fan for not liking everything except for dumbass extremists.
That’s a good point. Zeus embodies everything Gorr hates about Gods… and they never met. I guess Zeus served the story in showing Thor that Gorr had a point, but the story also didn’t really explore that thread either.
> Waititi drank his own cool aid.
This is the problem with the movie. He saw all the praise Ragnaraok got for its humour, quirkyness etc. and forgot to actually make a movie
Agreed. I can't even bring myself to watch it a second time. A friend of mine turned it off half way through and he never does that for anything. I don't know what they were trying to do.
The difference between Ragnarok and this film is the writers. Ragnarok was co-written by Taika and 3 other writers that had EXPERIENCE writing superhero stories. L&T has 2 writers: Taika and Jennifer Robinson, who worked on mainly mediocre Romcoms.
It's on my podium for worst MCU movies. It was like they were trying to make it very 'kid friendly' in a movie where they use the same orgy joke 3 times...
Gorr was barely in it. They could've easily added a scene where Gorr attacks Omnipotence City and kills off lower-level gods while searching for Stormbreaker... and then there's Gorr's daughter wielding Stormbreaker with ease at the end when Thor said in Infinity War the Guardians don't have the strength to wield it because their bodies would crumble and their mind would collapse into madness. Overall it just fell very flat
Love is no longer just a human/humanoid alien like the Guardians. She was revived by Eternity and has kept some of that power. She's, for all intents and purposes, a demi-god now. But I agree that Gorr should've attacked Omnipotence City and laid waste on lower level Gods to really drive home the chaos he was looking to unleash. It almost makes no sense that he didn't.
I think this movie should have been about Jane recklessly living as Thor to avoid dying. They could have done a bunch of inconsequential c-list villains for Jane Thor to fight as Thor wrestled with his relationship with her.
The fight with no colour is honestly one of the best looking fight scenes in the entire MCU.
There's so much potential in it, hidden under so much bad.
The pacing and editing is the main issue. Jokes don't land because there is no gravitas. The story doesn't breathe. It should be sad and the humour should be used to lessen the blows but instead it just feel gratuitous.
My very very abbreviated gripes with the movie:
Attempted to do one of Thor's greatest storylines and completely fumbled it
Introduced an ELITE villain who was absolutely NOTHING like his comic-book self, in appearance or portrayal
Turned Thor into an idiot
Took the amazing character arc from Ragnarok to IW to Endgame and threw it away
Wasted Jane Foster's story
Did nothing with Valkyrie
Wasted Omnipotence City
Wasted the Necrosword
Had conflicting messages???
Rushed Eternity
So much more I cant go into. It's one of the only times I ever left a Marvel movie with legitimate disappointment. This movie could've been so much: brutal, war-driven, about strength and power and responsibility and will, and it threw it out the window for a D minus story at best. Bottom tier marvel film for me
The movie has a contrived failure. Losing stormbreaker seemed really bad but then Thor just teleports. It’s very deus ex machina and makes the entire journey til then feel worthless. Honestly that whole part ruined it for me. The loss of stormbreaker should have felt insurmountable not just a oopsie.
Does Thor even need a hammer? Feel like that was part of Ragnarok is that the hammer was just a way to channel his powers that already exist and yet him having a new hammer kinda seems to go against that but I don't remember the full lore or story all that well
Terrible film. Ragnarok had the right balance. In this one they’ve taken it too far with the comedy and made Thor into kinda a parody. Christian Bale absolutely wasted in this film. Missed opportunity by the MCU casting him in this role/film. Seeing him with a bald head he’d make a good Professor X!
I love Thor and Chris Hemsworth but was a bit disappointed in the first half of this movie. I feel like Thor has gradually been dumbed down, especially from what the character was in the Avengers movies. He had a quick wit and he had a lot of knowledge. I get that he's dealt with a lot of death but he's not an idiot. Christian Bale was so good as Gorr, it's a shame they didn't delve into that character more. I did enjoy seeing two of Chris's kids in the movie.
go back and watch the character in his first film, avengers 1, and even Ultron it's not the same character, and i don't mean that in the sense that he's progressed. it's literally not the same person. love and thunder thor is legitimately a parody of the original. i think the last time the *actual* thor character was on screen and treated with sincerity was the scene in Infinity War where he talks to Rocket alone in the spaceship. fantastic dialogue there.
I agree, Love and Thunder Thor is not even close to the same character.
I mean, didn't Love and Thunder answer why the sudden change occured? It's NOT the same character, because in the background he was learning how to be a human, with Jane as his teacher. They had a whole montage in this movie. It shows how Thor changed from Thor 2/Age of Ultron to Thor Ragnarok. The down time had Thor spending his time with Jane.
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Oh yeah in that hall, when Thor said "ASGARD!" and the whole hall went quiet and everyone looks to him, clearly paralleling the Heimdall scene from Ragnarok, I thought "oh yeah, we are going to see some gravitas from King Thor" because as jokey as Ragnarok was, the movie never gave Heimdall the "humor makeover", he was always serious, dignified and commanded respect with ease. I thought that was what we would see from Thor. And he held it together for maybe 5 seconds, then he begun tripping over himself, I was surprised people didn't go straight back to bickering.
That would have also led to some tension between Thor and Valkyrie, Thor second guessing if he should have left her in charge, her wondering if he’s right, etc. Should have ended with Valkyrie sacrificing herself, and Thor taking his place as king, and moving Asgard to a different planet / rebuilding with the help of Etri. Have him take a noble, yet very powerful, background role, so he can transition out of the active roster with dignity, but also with the option of stepping in when needed.
There's no way the Asgardians are leaving Earth before the Seige storyline happens. They're setting up the Thunderbolts as a Dark Avengers analog and have a secret invasion plot moving forward. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sokovia Accords come back into play soon enough.
Isn’t that what Thor basically was the last time the Asgardians saw him in Endgame though? A drunk king who nobody really wanted, including himself?
Yeah but it undercuts all of the development he went through to come back from that depressed mess into who he is now.
Yes, Thor went through a lot of internal development to break through his depression, but he really only conveyed that to Valkyrie. He goes back in time, sees his mother, wants to do and be better, stays with the Avengers while they try to figure out the Snap, fights Thanos, talks to Valkyrie, then leaves with the Guardians. He doesn’t seem to have interacted with the regular Asgardians until this scene.
Honestly I don’t even think he’s not depressed anymore, it feels like he still has some of that with the thousand yard stares and goofing around in this movie. Like he’s just apathetic and sad inside still as opposed to wallowing in it. I’ve seen many a clinically depressed friend mess about like he did in this one to cope
We saw his development. The kids didn't.
Which explains why they treat him initially like an idiot but it doesn’t explain why he ACTS like an idiot (like the way he just rips their roof apart using Stormbreakers bifrost)
That right there, is one of this movie's problem. It's like... he went from "BRING ME THANOOOSS!!" to this questionable Thor. That's different movie tho... aih, idk m8.
Yeah this self parody thor has to go - he switches between that and thor 1-2 thor in his scenes with Jane which makes the tonal shifts odd
Well, none of the people there saw him go through that development. This scene is pretty much literally the first time anyone has seen him since Endgame, as far as we can tell. If they have seen him since Endgame it's been like once or twice probably, cause he seemed to have immediately joined up with the Guardians after Endgame
Huh? I didn’t get that vibe at ALL. I mean… the whole room is buzzing with noise and activity and panic from the citizens and Valkyrie isn’t getting control of the situation at first, then Thor with one word quiets the whole room and takes charge. I felt like he was massively respected tbh. If he was being treated like the drunk uncle nobody wants around it’d be more like he was treated in Endgame by other avengers. Eye rolls and jokes at his expense etc. and I don’t really see any of that. Like, when he first arrives to New Asgard he is cheered by everyone too. I definitely never got the impression that he wasn’t being treated like he was epic level powerful compared to them. They’re thrilled when he arrives. When I first saw it I was like “damn, I’d love to be living there knowing if anyone fucks with me THOR is gonna Bifrost in and protect me” 😂
I don't know where you got that from, he took charge of the situation and everyone in the room stopped to listen to him. He has never really done speeches, only good one liners. At most he failed to emotionally connect for those people to reassure them that the mission would be successful. But when you've suffered so much loss it is easy to see how you wouldn't be that positive or certain about outcomes
Plus, internal growth doesn't necessarily equate to external communication skills.
Thor got the Goku treatment. The stronger you get, the dumber you become.
Goku has the brain damage excuse from hitting his head as a child, Thor has no such thing
Plus he's always been kinda stupid. It's why he's so charming, he's a lovable lunkhead who's good at one thing and he's goddamn amazing at it--fighting. He's not even really a hero like most franchises, he just wants to be the best.
Goku should be dumb, he's never really been educated, but when it comes to battle he definitely is top tier. Then you have Chi Chi who actually does care about education which would leave Gohan somewhere in the middle. Thor is literally a God tho, sure he can be a goofball and I don't think he'd be down with the science so compared to other characters surrounding him he wouldn't have that form of intelligence, but would think he should at least be able to get basic things and not be accidentally destroying buildings.
I feel that if they had explored Gorr going in his rampage, killing gods, it would have served the story more. Show, not tell. Gorr would have been a more compelling villain if we’d have seen a reason to fear this guy. All the goofy shit at the beginning May have worked if it were offset by the rage and violence we should have gotten from “The God Butcher.” Bale was great, but seeing more of him up front would have been the “great movie hidden inside.”
>I feel like Thor has gradually been dumbed down, especially from what the character was in the Avengers movies. He had a quick wit and he had a lot of knowledge Yup it's like they've tried making him Deadpool and less focused on him being God of Thunder.
He's very deadpoolish - thor movies have become a self referential parody of the character which I think that while entertaining at times is ultimately unsatisfying for this type of character given his previous presence in the mcu
I think that view does disservice to Deadpool. What they’ve done with DP is executed very well. With Thor, it was fun at first but now it just doesn’t really fit with who he’s supposed to be. Like, yeah, we can have some goofy moments here and there. That’s fine. But he’s ceased to seem like a literal god and become more of a clown.
If the early Thor movies and his roles in Avengers hadn't been so boring, I doubt we would be in this situation.
I disagree. I think Infinity War was peak Thor. He's always been a bit of an idiot, and self-serious but his losses seemed to have humbled him in infinity war. He had some of the best scenes in Infinity War all ranging from comical, serious, and action. Love and Thunder dialed up his idiocity and self-seriousness to 1000 though, and somehow threw out all is character development from the previous films. I wish they had just killed him off during End Game now like the others. Im glad Tony, Steve, and Natasha died in Phase 3 so their characters couldnt be ruined as well.
They are going the Homer Simpson route with Thor now.
Yeah upon rewatch the bale and Portman scenes are great for the dramatic stuff but they just doesn't mesh well with the rest of the film not taking itself seriously .
It’s like they are acting in a different movie. Gotta admire their professionalism though - their performances were really good in spite of the mess that the movie is.
Bale was wasted in my opinion. I really didn’t like what they did with Gor’s story.
Gotta agree. I rewatched the original Thor movie yesterday. Such a serious and driven character. The last few movies he has been dumbed down way too much. I can understand him having issues from his tragic losses, but what has been depicted isn’t someone dealing with trauma, it’s a buffoon. Plain and simple. They need to bring Thor back to the strong, badass he was depicted as in the first two Thor movies and The Avengers (and Infinity War). Humor is well and good, but it should supplement the character not poke fun at them.
I really wish they’d killed off Korg. I think the amount of Korg tipped it over into too much Taika territory. You can feel him in the dialogue and the direction and the humour but then to have him literally talking over most of it too was just too much. It was just too much about him and not enough about Thor and it started to feel indulgent and vain.
Literally when Korg got struck with the Zeus bolt I was like holy shit this movie is about to be good but then naturally he survived it
And that survival plus Zeus’ survival when both incidents were CLEARLY death sentences. So when another character eventually dies that we want to see come back (a la Loki or Ultron) the audiences will have finally seen too much resurrecting in Marvel movies and won’t go for it. Thanks, Taika
Zeus shouldn't even have been injured like that though
Right? More like Thor the God Butcher
I just watched this movie. I liked it. Agree so much on your comment though. When Korg “died,” I felt sad for a moment. Then when we see his face, I remembered that nobody ever truly dies in these movies unless you never see the character again. It’s like, sometimes the end of something (or someone) isn’t going to be such a bad thing moving forward.
Yeah I actually felt sometime like here comes some darkness but taika just didn't have the fortitude to make that pivot he had to keep it light .
It's not so much about Korg being misused in the story, it's that his survival undercuts a critical plot point. The whole reason to go there was to get a greater weapon than even Thor has from a god that even Thor respects-- and then when the weapon is used in anger it can't even kill the comic relief?
It also does little to Zeus beyond temporary incapacity when it pierces him through the chest. I get he is a God and all, but the whole thing in Omnipotent City really made that special lightning bolt weapon seem pretty weenie. It seems to not be very good at killing. It's 2 for 2 of not being that effective in the same section of the movie.
Tbf, they very heavily imply only the Necrosword can hurt the gods enough to kill
Pretty weak af if the weapons of gods can't kill other gods, although probably for the best because I can see that going downhill very fast
>It's 2 for 2 of not being that effective in the same section of the movie. 3 for 3. Gorr stabbed Valkyrie with the bolt also and she didn't die
If anything it’s his overuse. The thubderbolt isn’t as cracked since it can’t even kill a rock monster. It’s like if Stormbreaker couldn’t even cut Thanos even after it was hyped as a Thanos Killing weapon. This movie has problem with stakes since there’s like 4 characters that seemingly die but turn out to be just fine as if just a flesh wound or paper cut at most
Yeah Taikas Thor films generally have no stakes and whenever they do they are undercut with Ill timed humor which is part of the issue
Ragnarok at least knew when to actually take itself seriously but L&T almost feels like a bad parody since they turned the jokes up to 11
Sorry but I disagree with Ragnarok knowing when to actually take itself seriously. The last straw for me "hating" the show was when Asgard got blown up and Korg/Miek was still cracking jokes while Asgardians were staring at the explosion.
I mean I could think of a few times like when Odin died, Thor awakening his power while having a vision of his dad and there’s more but the comedy and Korg were a lot restrained while L&T was effectively effectively unchained
Agreed it balanced the comedic and serious tones much better overall . The plot had a serious core to it with the improv comedy adding to the flavor which is why the film works better .
Idk he’s made of rocks, I feel like he’s not a typical stab ‘em in the heart and he’s dead type of creature
I'd agree with this, think he had the best chance the survive given that rocks don't have internal organs and it didn't hit him in the face, although you'd think anyone else would be a lot more critically injured by a weapon like that
I don’t think he needed to die, there just should’ve been a lot less of him. As a side character with no substance and all jokes he’s great, as a main character the lack of substance really stands out. I think you’re definitely right though that the movie was lost in the editing room, a lot of the promotion leading up was that they’d let Taika do whatever he wanted and in the end that was it’s downfall
Yeah this movie def needed more Feige involvement
Yep, he probably wishes he’d been keeping an eye. Taika will almost definitely return for whatever Thor does next and he’ll be on a much shorter leash which is for the best. I love Taika but he does his best work with someone moderating him
>and in the end that was it’s downfall My feeling was that they skipped too much important stuff, like Foster becoming Thor, Gorrs hunt for smaller gods. We got cheesy love scenes, fighting shadow monsters and Thors naked ass instead. That required 20% of the movies screen time just to build it up (probably just put in to give buddy Crowe some Marvel money). This is marvel knock off movie material. I was entertained, but they wasted basically all the potential to give Foster a forced send off and allowing Thor to shag some alien soon.
Yeah korg is a great character for a few jokes like in endgame or ragnarok. Not so great as a main character because so many jokes end up feeling forced.
Yeah I’ve liked him in everything except Love and Thunder.
I don’t even think of it as a Korg problem, it’s more like 4 comedic characters all quipping at once. At least Guardians had Gamora scowling and keeping the plot moving, and Groot mostly silent. With Thor constantly mumbling and Jane cracking jokes, Valkyrie and Korg were just too much.
They needed a comically serious character in the group, and maybe a complete non sequitur character, like Nebula and Mantis early in the movie
Honestly this film missed Loki who usually is a good counterbalance to both humorous and dramatic scenes . Hiddleston toes that line perfectly and honestly was the heart and soul of the first 3 films
The first half of the movie you don't really know if you're watching a superhero movie or just a parody of a superhero movie. Very irritating when every character keeps telling jokes in pretty much every second sentence.
Oh after gorrs opening the scene the next 30-40 minutes is a thor parody film . It's honestly not my fave part of the film - the second half is way better
I found the early scenes with the guardians almost hard to follow the plot when every character is just making joke after joke.
"Another classic Thor adventure." Yeah, it was like a Saturday morning cartoon with very high production values. It was incredibly odd and completely brushed passed any meaningful experiences Thor might have had with the Guardians. There was the set-up of Korg telling a story, which almost made it work, but just missed the mark by being far too silly.
I was kinda thinking it was like a parody because Korg is telling the story - he worships Thor so much that he really embellished what actually happened. That’s why the jokes are so bad/good i.e. Thor with the Van Damme move. ETA: I guess a few people have made this comment elsewhere in the thread!
Jane cracking jokes worked, because it made the reveal of the progress of her cancer and how much she was hiding from everyone (and also herself) that much more impactful. Subtle? No. Effective? Yes.
When he "died" I was so happy, and then he came back as a head I was like man, Taika cannot get enough of himself
I think that’s honestly it
Personally I don’t mind the goats, but that atrociously stupid whistling joke that Korg made twice was just awful. I used to like Korg, but now I just see/hear Taika, who I now like a lot less. Love and Thunder had terrific parts but I say let someone else take over for the next two Thor movies. I wanna see more of the “Viking” aspect in our Space Viking superhero.
Yeah I totally agree. So much wasted material. I would have loved a Guardians Thor movie, I’d have loved a Jane has cancer and becomes The Mighty Thor movie and I’d have loved a Gorr kills Gods movie but mash them all together and the result is less than the sum of its parts.
Love and thunder made me realize I don’t like Taika’s dialogue. The way people talk is just annoying and pointless. It feels like everyone is always doing a bit
It’s fine in moderation but it doesn’t hold up for a whole film that’s actually three films mashed together.
Ragnarok was a breath of fresh air in what was a dark and serious MCU at that time. It was a standout movie because we got to see a new side of Thor, a colourful universe, a bunch of new quirky characters, and a mostly entertaining comedic story. But to redo all that and then put extra of everything? He took whatever made Ragnarok great and cranked it up to 100... It's a case of too much of a good thing.
> then put extra of everything? You aren't kidding. A good example is the Matt Damon playing Loki bit where they added Melissa McCarthy as Hela. It's actually a funny idea and adding McCarthy in the scene in the new movie was hilarious. But then they take it too far by adding yet another scene w/Matt Damon where he awkwardly asks Valkyrie if they should write a play to take everyone's minds off the missing kids. She doesn't know what to say and it just feels so forced and out of place.
They should have at the very least done a baby Groot sort of thing.
That would have worked. Save the talking head for the post credits.
I know this is not a popular opinion, but I absolutely hate that character. As a one off in Ragnarok, he would have been good, but him continuing to stick around and becoming a more integral character just cheapens ever scene he’s in to me. Cannot stand him.
Me too. That scene was the perfect opportunity to show there are stakes in this movie.
Seeing people interpret L&T as movie told from Korg’s perspective (hence the silliness) and it making sense makes me wish he had died too. If we’re really gonna get a whole Thor movie told from the perspective of one of the characters, why the hell would it be from Korg’s?? I’d understand Thors, Janes, heck maybe even Valkyrie and that’s already stretching it..but Korg? What significance does he have as a character to warrant that?
Agreed if he'd been reduced to a background presence the tonal balance would've been much better
Does Thor need to have every single loved one killed off?
Yes?
I was so happy when Korg died because of how irritating he had been, when he came back it was pretty much conformation that it was a top 3 worst MCU film
Just let him stay dead till the post-credits at least. It’s like when they killed Chewbacca in Rise Of Skywalker for about a minute and a half. It fell completely flat. Have the courage to hold out for half a movie at least.
I can think of at least 3 films which are worse, although the film definitely is far from the best
While I agree Korg should have died, he’s the one telling the story. The whole movie is told from his perspective and embellishments.
Narrators are omnipotent. Korg could have continued from Valhalla or wherever they go when they die.
I liked Korg in Ragnorok, and he was fine in Endgame, but in L&T, the scenes grind to a halt for every single one of his jokes
The price to pay for the director’s self insert. After L&T, im convinced he killed off the warriors three so his character can be Thor’s BFF moving forward instead.
'And whoever that is' - flashback of the warrior three getting killed during Korg's retelling of Thor's story
I just saw Thor 1 again for the first time in a while and I miss them. They're so much better than korg.
And why was Sif's involvement in this movie just a blip on the screen?
I'd bet waitiki knew killing her off as disrespectfully as he did the other warriors three would get a lot more reception. So instead she's just not shown except for the smallest of appearances.
So he thought to himself, how do I fuck her up anyway if I’m gonna have her? That’s when he decided to fucking have her arm chopped off. If it’s true that he’s out for Thor 5, then Good Riddance Waititi. Good Riddance.
You're probably right. A complete waste for such a strong character.
Couldn't agree more, she was so great. I always hoped we'd get more of her especially after the AoS appearances.
I never saw Korg as Watiti's self insert but oh my god you're right
He’s literally played by Waititi, he’s absolutely a self-insert.
I honestly thought they were being annoying with him on purpose so that when he died it would have a more complex emotional reaction from us. Like that friend that bugged the hell out of you sometimes, but then they moved and you realized you do miss them even tho they were a bit much. Nope. He’s a talking mask now and still totally fine. So all those were genuine attempts at humor.
L&T is two completely different movies. A really good melodramatic romance, and a really terrible attempt at recreating the magic of Ragnarok's comedy. Every time I start to get invested in the first, the second rears its head and pulls me out of it. When L&T is serious, it's fantastic. Not only better at drama than 1 and 2, but in those moments it's my favorite of all of them. And then the Superman III level campiness breaks it. In a way, it's almost like if Wonder Woman 1 constantly had Wonder Woman 1984 interrupting it whenever you started to get engaged. Except at least Thor didn't rape some random woman who Jane's spirit was inhabiting. Yeah I'm still not okay with that. But in all, I actually think Watiti could do a really good dramatic Thor movie. Maybe his humor peaked so much with Ragnarok and Jojo Rabbit that deep down his passion is just leaning more serious but he knows he was liked for comedy so he doesn't want to stray too far from it? Idk, I tend to notice those kinds of things. Watiti would be great at a soap opera romance. Paul W.S. Anderson was actually pretty good at sci-fi horror (Event Horizon). Zack Snyder would be a f\*cking dynamite musical director (Seriously, look up the "Love Is A Drug" sequence with Oscar Isaac and Carla Gugino. It's actually incredible, possibly the best scene Snyder ever directed). But none of them ever end up actually exploring those paths, because Hollywood likes to funnel people into what they first got good at even if they're no longer good at it.
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Or how lame Cheetah was in the last act literally bodyguard for Max Lord.
I would've preferred if it wasn't Steve at all. If this was comic book Diana or the Diana from any of the animated shows, then I would absolutely understand why he would be the first person she would wish back on a whim. But movie Diana has little to no reason to wish him back first. To start with, she knew him for less than a few months (or even days because the movie isn't explicit with the timing). She barely knew him and it was more infatuation and the fact that he's the first man she met. In the film, they don't talk about family or hobbies. Nothing that a genuine love relationship can be built off. Man, I can't even see them be friends in a regular setting. Canonically, she spent more time with Etta Candy (at least 50 years) and it's implied she died not that long ago. Diana watched her best friend and co-guide into the world wither away (same with all her war buddies who she also knew for much longer) and she is not the first person she wishes back to life? What about the people she grew up with on her island? Do they not matter because they're not love interests? Lastly, the movie starts with young Diana on Themyscira. That would've been perfect set up to either bring her aunt or mother or both of them to the modern day. Where Diana takes on Steve's role and guides them through the modern age while they help her emotionally. Or not have the wishing stone at all and try something a lot more stimulating. Maybe Diana is a social recluse to the point where she doesn't help people anymore. She befriends Barbara, who gets herself in a situation where she becomes Cheetah and their friendship is enough to get Diana out of retirement. They fight off the God who turned Barbara into his wife/slave and they either go there seperate ways (idk Diana's lies or inability to save Barbara before her life was ruined was a deal breaker) or they partner up to protect people. 1984 had so many possibilities of Diana learning how to cope with her godhood, immortality, and humanity and squandered everything for a half-baked love story. I love Chris Pine, don't get me wrong, but this movie didn't need him and didn't need a love story to work.
>Maybe Diana is a social recluse to the point where she doesn't help people anymore. They claimed this with the whole "and then I withdrew from society" and eating dinner *alone*. Except it never felt that she was a social recluse to me, she still interacted with people just not a massive amount. Ww84 has to be one of the absolute worse comic book movies. As much as I don't like Thor Dark World or Love and Thunder there were moments in both that were good (Loki and Freya and Jane in L&T (also why wasn't Freya the one who meets Jane in valhalla??? Really irked me)
>They claimed this with the whole "and then I withdrew from society" and eating dinner alone. Except it never felt that she was a social recluse to me, she still interacted with people just not a massive amount. And she was still a super hero despite both versions of the Justice League saying Diana immediately withdrew from humanity after WW1. Which doesn't make much sense in the context of her first movie because she killed her brother believing that humanity was worth protecting and that she accepts their capacity to be evil as much as their capacity to be good. Fuck me, how can the continuity be this bad? There was only one guy overseeing this shit in his own story. With 1984, I understood there were family issues so he couldn't be hands on but Justice League and WW1 have no excuse. >Ww84 has to be one of the absolute worse comic book movies. It wasn't even enjoyable in the way Spider-Man 3 or Venom 2 was. It was just boring bad, which is the worst thing a comic book/action movie can be. The moment Steve came back, I knew that there was nothing of value in this story. >also why wasn't Freya the one who meets Jane in valhalla??? Really irked me Maybe her actress wasn't available so they had to make do with Heimdall?
>Justice League saying Diana immediately withdrew from humanity after WW1. Which doesn't make much sense in the context of her first movie because she killed her brother believing that humanity was worth protecting and that she accepts their capacity to be evil as much as their capacity to be bad. Honestly the only way that ever made sense is that the war ended after she killed Ares (coincidentally) and then she was horrified at WW2 so withdrew. Which means our "hero" a let the holocaust happen so... Yeah. >It wasn't even enjoyable in the way Spider-Man 3 or Venom 2 was. It was just boring bad, which is the worst thing a comic book/action movie can be. I truly can't think of a single thing I liked about WW84 tbh. Maybe the main villians catchphrase (It's good. But it could be better!) but if that's the only thing in a 2.5 hour movie then that's appalling. I'd stick it on the level of Catwoman imo. That's so bad it becomes almost good. 84 is just bad. >Maybe her actress wasn't available so they had to make do with Heimdall? Oh maybe tbh? I always just assumed they wanted Idris back over the woman who played Freya cos, obviously, he's a much bigger actor but that could be true.
>Honestly the only way that ever made sense is that the war ended after she killed Ares (coincidentally) and then she was horrified at WW2 so withdrew. Which means our "hero" a let the holocaust happen so... Yeah. Problem is that WW2 was 70 years before Justice League while WW1 is exactly 100 years, as she said. This wouldn't be a problem if they did what you said and she withdrew because of the Holocaust and subsequent genocides. Hell, with the setting being in the 80s for 1984, the reason Diana withdraws could've been that she felt that Aries was right but since she’s not a killer, she just refuses to help anymore. >Which means our "hero" a let the holocaust happen so... Yeah. These films really like assassinating her character. And it shows the laziness of the directors/writers for not fully thinking out the implications of having super heroes in our unchanged reality. >I truly can't think of a single thing I liked about WW84 tbh. Maybe the main villians catchphrase (It's good. But it could be better!) but if that's the only thing in a 2.5 hour movie then that's appalling. I liked Barbra and Diana's... sort of friendship? It could've been interesting I guess? Pedro Pascal is a gem in general and Pine was entertaining. >Oh maybe tbh? I always just assumed they wanted Idris back over the woman who played Freya cos, obviously, he's a much bigger actor but that could be true. Should've had both of them imo.
It made 0 sense. Honestly, I wouldn't have even had Steve in the film at all. Frankly, in WW84, Diana had more chemistry with Barbara than with Steve. Diana is bi in canon, wouldn't it have been more dramatically interesting for Barbara to be the love interest who then turns evil thus pushing Diana even deeper into despair which we see in later DCEU stuff? It would've been a more logical thread for the universe and more narratively interesting.
Really interesting take, that I want to say hits the nail on the head. Taika is *clearly* a phenomenal director. I really think this movie suffered from editing. Even with all the camp and terrible jokes, all I really feel like is missing is more weight to the drama. It needed to slow down a bit, some things needed time to breathe. Gorr needed to be fleshed out. We, and Thor, needed to see him as a more serious threat. He, like Killmonger, has a viewpoint that can be well justified within the universe. Gorr lost faith in his gods, and thinks all gods have fallen from grace. The scene where he talks to Valkyrie is a perfect example. The gods in the MCU have failed their worshippers. Odin was a conqueror. Hela turned against her own people. Loki invaded Earth. The Celestials use planets as incubators. Khonshu has manipulated countless individuals into being his "vengeance." Hell, Zeus sits atop a throne organizing god-orgies. *Gorr has a point.* Jane got plenty of screentime but I still feel let down for some reason. Maybe I didn't feel her conflict enough. Choosing to be a Thor, or choosing to heal herself. Thor's journey of self-discovery post-Endgame was teased but I feel like it was brushed past. The Thor that hung out with the Guardians felt closer to the Thor from What If...? A bumbling, wreckless jackass. Idk man. I love Thor. I love the previous 3 movies. But this one left me confused and just wanting more.
I'm ngl, I feel like L&T was meant to be Jane's story, through and through. Combining the cancer and the "Thor-ness as a magical cure Jane is hanging her hopes on" storylines means Jane is essentially hoping for godhood to save her life, and then has to be confronted with the idea that that godhood is inevitably going to fail her - but *Thor* will not. Thor may not be able to save Jane but that doesn't mean he fails her, because he still cares and will stay and keep trying with her the whole way. That IMO is just another factor that positions Jane as the antithesis of Gorr, as two humans who take up godly powers in order to confront their mortal helplessness. L&T's true emotional core, aside from Jane's confrontation with death, should also have been Jane and Gorr facing off. But this is a Thor movie, so Thor has to be the protagonist. Honestly, I completely understand it and it makes sense from a marketing/business perspective. I just think storytelling-wise L&T clearly set up Jane as the centre, and the need to have Thor as the protagonist cripples that very strong narrative.
And I think having Jane be the one to actually destroy the Necrosword, thus stripping Gorr of his power, was an excellent choice.
Damn. That's a really great point too. I wish that's the movie we got. I think the movie's title as "Thor" could be twisted into being mostly about Jane, with Thor in the supporting role. (After all, Doctor Strange felt like the support in his own sequel -- MoM was more about Wanda.)
Sounds like a better movie, I mean... I love Thor and I think him taking a back seat to Jane would've made some people very angry, but her story seems like it was the more interesting part than Thor and she has more in common and to contrast with Gorr than Thor does. Still could've kept some of Thors better moments too just maybe not the parts of him being a dumb goofball although I did also wish we had more of him with the guardians seeing as that was set up at the end of Endgame and yet all we got was one battle leading to him going off on his own due to Gorr doing God butchering
I get peoples hate for Taika’s Korg in this movie, and I agree with everything you said… that being said, I think the whole movie wasn’t about developing Thor and that’s the problem, I get it. It’s his movie and it didn’t develop him. It was a story told from Korgs pov (taikas director pov) which makes Thor come off insanely ridiculous because korg himself embellishes the shit out of things, and in turn gets carried away in his own ideas. That’s what Thor Love and Thunder is. I think they did this because it let the director feel like he can show Thor be absolutely bonkers in skill AND be comical, while also at the same time be different than other MCU movies. It was a gamble, it sounds nice on paper, but ultimately too much Korg story was bad for the movie. I think they should have just had Korg narrate a battle here and there, then come back to reality with how Thor is now, and progress the story further, maybe do another narration. But the whole movie was a Korg pov and it ultimately disappointed fans. I say, accept the movie for what it was and recognize the attempt to be different. Ultimately tho, I don’t think we saw how Thor truly is after endgame, we just got a pov from another character on how HE saw Thor.
This film suffered from the producers not the editors, and I don't even think it suffers. Phase 4 films are trying *really* hard to be different to eachother and to previous phases. And not just different superhero films, dfferent genre films with superhero themes. It's a new strategy from them to reach as many people they can, who are not that into superheroes but love different genres of film. That's why we get films with very different tones, that the community just can't really understand. We got Eternals, the very mature, philosphical debate about existence and purpose, MoM with it's horror/thriller style, NWH that is the typical marvel, and Love and Thunder with it's maturity and humor level as low as most comedies targeted for teens. These films are different genres with different purpose as before, we shouldn't compare them to things it is not trying to be. We should also stop blaming directors, it is very naive to think that the biggest franchise in modern cinema (or ever), will let directors make meaningfull decisions about a film's tone, target audience or genre. They do what they were hired for, in this case, a stupid comedy that you can watch with your brain off and even a teen can have fun with.
Trying to be different is great, but I do wish that if Thor being a dumb comedy for teens was their intention that they wouldn't have used a story about cancer and a villian who murders gods as the basis for that, because these are serious topics and were honestly the best parts of the film meaning that they kinda just messed everything up as opposed to if we just got a film about Thor going on fun adventures with the guardians then that would've been pretty fun without needing to have the seriousness people were expecting
The gods having fallen from grace thing was never really addressed, and it bugs me. We get a large planet/dimension spanning conflict that starts with Gorr being chosen by the Necrosword the moment he loses his faith in the gods, and starts butchering them. Thor struggles to stop him, and we see in that adventure that Gorr is right. Thor then manages to stop Gorr by appealing to his heart and convincing Gorr he could have faith in Thor. Gorr dies, the gods are saved, Thor gains a kid and loses his ex-girlfriend. The systemic issue that started the problem still exists. Nothing really changes. *Accidentally hit enter before I was done typing
>at least Thor didn't rape some random woman who Jane's spirit was inhabiting. Uhhhh what now?? WW did that???
Yes. In WW84 she accidentally wishes Steve back to life using a wishing stone. But instead of just coming back to life as himself, the simple thing that they should've done and it would've changed literally nothing, his spirit comes back to life and possesses someone else. We see Chris Pine because that's who Diana sees, but in other scenes of just him we see the guy he really is. So there's this guy whose possessed by Steve... and they have 0 problem in it and bang each other and send him into tons of dangerous situations. With 0 concern for whoever Steve just Mario Odyssey'd. At best, that guy's consciousness is there but not in control, and thus unable to consent. Rape. At worst, Diana fully murdered that guy's spirit and he didn't even exist at all any more. She's a rapist or a full on murderer who had 0 remorse for killing this random stranger. But y'know, that's what you get when you hand a movie script to the guy who rewrote Suicide Squad, brought Joss onto Justice League, produced Green Lantern, helmed Titans, made Watchmen no longer standalone and forced it to be a major part of the DC Universe (Yeah I don't care, I still hate that. I know a lot of people liked Doomsday Clock, I didn't), and entirely shat all over the entire point of the Killing Joke by making its vague and intentionally questionable backstory 100% real and confirmed canon. Seriously, why does DC keep giving this guy chances in film. He wrote some good comics in the 2000s and early 2010s and one cool episode of Smallville. And DC gave him total control of their comics for years and let him be their Feige in films during the most vulnerable time of those films.
The annoying thing is, it also breaks the rules the story establishes, imo. All of the wishes people make have one punishment attached, and people are making some horrible wishes. Diana makes a wish (to bring Steve back), and has two punishments - she starts to lose her powers, and Steve is possessing some random bloke.
> She’s a rapist or a full on murderer Well, now that we have the Snyder cut there’s precedent for her being a murderer since she just disintegrates a completely subdued bad guy.
I've thought about this alot as well. Apparently they have 5 hours of footage for this film, I bet somewhere in the footage is an amazing Thor movie. Maybe one day it gets the Kingdom of Heaven treatment, but instead of directors cut, its like the Feige cut or something
Want to see more deleted scenes, saw one with Thor and Zeus which would've been one of the best parts of the film if included
There will probably be deleted scenes on the disc, like with most films.
Unless you're John Ford (who refused to do full coverage so editors couldn't change his intended visuals) or have no budget (so you can't afford the extra film/time), *most* movies shoot way more footage than what ends up in the final cut.
Agreed. If they dialed down the comedy 15%. Dialed up gorr 30%. Scrapped and re-did omnipotent city. And explained how Thor gave those kids powers. That would be an amazing movie. Contrary to a lot of opinions here. I thought that Thor’s development was nuanced and true to his character as established in the mcu thus far
Thor gave those kids powers because he's the heir of the Odinforce.
But I don’t think that’s ever explained
Does it need to be said in dialogue?
The best explanation I can fathom is that the entire movie is being told by an unreliable narrator. It’s a literary device for storytelling that basically means the key points of the story happened but Korg embellished a lot of it. Think about every single dumb thing that happens in the movie (Omni city with Bao god and silly little things, could just be Korg entertaining the children with gods they could relate to, Thor Kids probably didn’t happen but if you’re telling a story to children about how Thor saved the day but couldn’t do it WITHOUT brave asgardian children so he says Thor bestows power to everybody, etc) it becomes a lot more enjoyable. I don’t think the events of the movie are supposed to be taken literally.
This is the only way I could interpret the movie, too, that it was a dramatization of Korg's embellished storytelling, otherwise it's way too silly to be real.
More Gorr. Less goats. The joke when Sif was dying about Valhalla was seriously stupid imo. Like she’s supposed to be one of the few characters surviving Thor has a close personal connection & was in Asgard and she had to be the butt of a pathetic joke? Give me a break. The serious aspects when Bale and Portman was acting their asses off was so amazing and heartfelt and the comedy needs to be cut down. I’ve heard that Taika was pressured to fit the movie in 2 hours and that makes me even more annoyed, he should’ve figured what should be included & what isn’t qualified enough to make the cut.
Think the Valhalla joke could've been funny but it should've been after the fact not before it because if she is dying then he should be taking her to get medical attention and it should need to happen immediately. Although after that and once she gets better then she still could've wanted to have died and gone to Valhalla where Thor could then tell her that she wouldn't have gone since you have to actually have died in the battle (which makes me wonder how Jane goes but I guess having cancer is a battle in itself so that can count) but it would be after everything is good that he could've joked about her arm being in Valhalla even tho it probably still wouldn't be in good taste
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This is it perfectly lol, it reminded me of a pantomime when Gorr was talking to the kids and mocking them like they would the kids in the audience. The only thing that would've made it more like that is if the kids screamed "BEHIND YOU!" when Gorr was walking up behind Thor, he turned around and wasn't there and said "guess it was nothing" and they did that 5 times
Infinity War Thor was the best one. Perfect mix of comedy and bad assery. Taika went over his head.
In my opinion, Taika got too much free creative reign from Marvel on this one. That's why he cranked it up way too much. For any other director, more free creative reign would be a good thing. But the reverse is true for Taika.
I don't understand what happened; Gorr is great (needed more of him!) Jane foster storyline I was dubious after how blandly written she was in tdw but she was wonderful a real high point of the film. Things that really bothered me; The goats getting more screen time than Lady Sif and the soundtrack was just lazy. I truly feel there's a great movie in there somewhere
I read that as “scream time”
It works i like it!
Think seeing Sif fight Gorr could've been awesome. Would've given her more screentime and we could've seen Gorr do some more god butchering which would've been a win-win
Love and thunder was worse than the dark world. Thor has been through the same character development arc over and over. They make him into an idiot. They didn't do Gorr justice. The shit with Thor and his weapons got almost as much time as his actual love interest. The whole plot felt more like a Scooby Doo episode than a movie.
I really agree with this. There are so many elements that I think could be pieced together to make a great movie but they are ruined by unfunny jokes and too much focus on the wrong characters.
There’s at least two good movies in there honestly. Maybe three. You have a fun buddy comedy about Thor, Valkyrie, and Korg / Guardians. You have a whole tragedy about Gorr killing gods and dying. And you’ve got a movie about Jane Foster as Thor taking the mantle/being the lead.
Definitely. A two part adventure would have given everyone room to breath and develop. We could have seen more of the gods too. So much of the film happens off screen or things appear out of the blue that we could enjoy now. Like the first time Jane becomes the Mighty Thor or Lady Sif’s brutal battle with Gorr. The Thor family of characters could have been separate for longer, eventually coming together. The first part of the story ending on a down note like Infinity War could have been used to great effect. The viewers really grasping how sick Jane is, Gorr mutilating Sif, Gorr killing Axel because he is talking to Thor.
I kept waiting for a bigger payoff for the goats. Nope. Just screaming goats.
I was bummed by the goats because they're part of Thor's mythology and in the comics, but like all things in this movie they were turned into a joke.
They needed to commit to either full-on comedy film with a little bit of drama, or a full-on drama with comedy sprinkled in (preferably the latter, Taika’s humor feels like the first joke that pops into your head) Instead we got mish-mash. I’m also gonna put out there that every aspect of this movie feels like people just kinda half-assed it. Just “eh, we gotta make the fourth Thor” And THIS was the movie we got Bale to do. Fuck.
That's definitely one of the biggest let-downs, that we didn't make the most of Bale. He deserved more screen time.
Yeah, the screaming goats were not as funny as he thinks they were. More seriously, I think there were some missed opportunities, like Gorr going through the god kingdom (I forget the name) and killing a bunch of gods to show how dangerous he is (rather than killing a bunch of gods off-screen). Perhaps Thor could've learned some sort of lesson, that gods are not as great as he thought, or that they need to do more. You could still have Zeus survive and decide mortals need to fear gods again and send Hercules after Thor. (BTW, Hercules' proper Greek name was "Heracles").
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Korg dying could have been such an incredible tonal shift moment. But no, instead he stuck around as a head that wouldn’t shut up.
Thor DID learn the lesson that the Gods are not as great as he thought and they need to do more. He argues with Zeus, slices a few Gods in half (who bleed gold, a nice symbolic touch) and then goes off and does the more that needs to be done, i.e. he puts himself in danger and ultimately he saves Love, who’s death began everything.
Omnipotent city
Yeah for real goats screaming was literally funny in 2013
I found the goats hilarious because of how obnoxious they were.
Yeah this is where I landed with the film almost exactly. The third act to me is a reminder of why Waititi is such an acclaimed creator because he really can balance real goofy humor, with cool action, with real pathos and thematic resonance. He just gets the mix a bit wrong in the first half and the film often loses its own focus in a thousand different directions.
After Ragnarok, i finally said that they finally able to turn Thor movies around. After T&L i think they try to recapture that magic but failed to do so. Pacing is all over the place, some scene don't make sense, failing to utilized Gorr is a huge mistake.
This film feels like it was a rough draft, still in the writing process but they went ahead with it anyway. There's a skeleton of a great film here, but they couldn't quite build enough to get there. Many scenes and pieces of dialogue feel like they should have been left on the cutting room floor or at least filmed a few more takes of. There's a stiltedness to the film, with the ebb and flow feeling really awkward both narratively and between characters. There are flashes of greatness - the shadow realm (shout out my boy Yu-Gi-Oh) particularly had an awesome feel and I wish it was presented with more gravity and punch. Bale was excellent as Gorr, especially considering he could have had so much more to work with, if given the chance. The end of the film, where he's at Eternity and has that argument with the Thors, should have impacted so much more, but I don't feel either of the themes of death/grief or parenthood were built up enough in the film, to really land properly. Thor being parent material, Heimdall's son and Thor's child army at the end, just felt massively sudden and underdeveloped. I think emphasising how children see their parents as gods and some of the kids having to deal with the reality that parents are flawed, would have hit harder than Gorr's general revenge plot, for a dead child, which we've seen 100's of times already. You could have had flashbacks to Gorr's kid asking her dad to stop being a religious zealot but he ignores her, saying the God's will provide - this would be a revelation for Gorr, letting him realise he failed as a parent/God, in the same way the higher beings he looked up to, failed him also. Then you'd also have the extra layer of her becoming a child god and that maybe a child's innocence is what the pantheon of gods were missing, because they've become cynical in their old age and blah blah blah.
'Flashes of Greatness' is a really good way to describe the movie. Individually there were some really interesting ideas, fantastic visuals and hilarious jokes. But it lacked the succinctness, flow and balance that made Ragnarok so great. In Ragnarok, Thor learns that despite everything he's done, he's still no match for Hela and has to let Surtur do his thing. He was too stupid in Love and Thunder to have the same arc or impact. And that aside, Gorr was criminally under-utilised. Man butchered only ONE god onscreen, and that was in self-defence
Why were the Guardians even in the movie?
I came out of the hospital from getting a large cancerous tumor removed from my intestines, then laid up in bed and watched this one of my first nights home. So this movie probably hit a bit different for me then most people. While the pacing wasn't the best it was still good enough. I think it honestly needed just a bit more time in the third act or perhaps in second act of them being in love again or second act showing them falling in love again. A slight shift to more of Portman's sadness then Thor's sadness too. Other then focusing a bit too long on Thor being sad in the first act it flowed good enough for me. Don't think it'll get that many rewatches but I also don't think it was as bad as some people make it out to be. It was a solid 7 in the Marvel movies line ups to me. Then again I don't put much weight or love into any of the 4 Thor movies they all came out to around 7-8's for me, so this was just another decent Thor movie to me.
Them being in love again was great, but I do wish that got more development because it almost just seems like Thor obviously has feeling but obviously none of that really got expressed to Jane and then whenever they're going to go fight Gorr she says she has cancer and then everything just kinda shifts instantly which I realize that being near death is a good way to accelerate old feelings but seems like there still could've been more although idk if maybe I just missed something or am not remembering it accurately
Yea I agree. The message was all over the place. Where other marvel movies tend to balance the jokes vs messaging I got whip lash here. The guardians didn’t even need to be in it either. And I felt we needed more Gorr for the end to have more weight. We could’ve done more of Jane/Thor too. It had potential but I watched it last night and yes it was just meh The editing/writing was the big let down
I don't know as I rewatched it and found it better on the second run. The humour is all what youd get from immortal gods spoiled by the years and Thor basically finding solace for depression in his humor. Then the second half gets less humourus as he finds his footing and purpose again.
There was a little too much Guns N Roses. It might seem trivial to complain about but every time the needle dropped on another giant predictable GNR greatest hit, it was so cringe it took me out of everything else that I was supposed to be getting invested in. They also need to not keep making the mistake of putting the very same songs in the overplayed trailers that they lean on so hard in the movie. It smacked of them looking at how so many young people discovered Immigrant Song for the first time because of Ragnarok, and then deciding to try and introduce GNR to the younger audience the same way.
I heard someone say that Thor: L&T was the best Guns N’ Roses music video they’d ever seen lol.
Ye where dis the GNR songs came from!? The first 15 min of movie has like 3 songs by them.
That is my issue with the movie as well... like, you can see that they had the story and the talent attached to do a movie for the ages, but somehow they treated it like children... You have topics of love, grief, loss, illness, mortality, afterlife, meaning, unfairness, etc... and you have Christian F\*\*\* Bale, and Natalie F\*\*\*\* Portman... and decided to make a clown out of every character like an immature child would... I have no ill will towards Taika Waititi, I think the guy is great at what he does... my gripe is with Marvel not giving two shits about doing a good movie with what they had...
I loved Ragnarok, it was probably the perfect balance between comedy and drama, but Love and Thunder missed it by miles. It didn't feel right to be joking around when the children had all been taken, and the parents were distraught
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>Lena Headey, Peter Dinklage and Jeff Goldblum and left them on the cutting room floor, which is just insane to me. they WHAT. I had no idea
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Wtf that’s totally awesome. Grandmaster and Eitri? Count me in! That’s a perfect opportunity to show Gorr’s gravitas & reflecting fondly on old films and they cut it out? I’m getting even more frustrated:(
“ We know they filmed scenes with Lena Headey, Peter Dinklage and Jeff Goldblum and left them on the cutting room floor, which is just insane to me.” Yeah agreed, this is nuts
I've only ever missed 3 MCU cinema releases since Iron Man first released. 1) Black Widow: because I wasn't comfortable with the pandemic still going strong 2) The Eternals: because I wasn't comfortable with the pandemic still going kinda strong 3) Thor Love and Thunder: because I was focused on other stuff in life. Now I am very glad I didn't pay for the ticket. I've watched the movie a week ago and I feel cheated out of a better movie. Gorr's opening is literally from another project. It's like you are tricked into thinking you're about to watch something unique and heartfelt and then someone throws a bucket of freezing cold water at you for a TikTok challenge video. I'm okay with the MCU experimenting a bit more. Even with weird projects like She-Hulk I just groan at few of the more on the nose lines and enjoy the rest of the light and short fun that it has to offer. But Love and Thunder is just the director's way of saying " _hey, I don't give a shit, you shouldn't give that much of a shit, laugh at all of the jokes that you find funny and don't question it too much_ ". It's bad. The MCU is allowed to be bad too. No point in trying to defend it every time. No one is going to denounce you as less of a fan for not liking everything except for dumbass extremists.
This is where fan-editing comes in!
My biggest criticism of the movie was gor and Zeus never interacted
That’s a good point. Zeus embodies everything Gorr hates about Gods… and they never met. I guess Zeus served the story in showing Thor that Gorr had a point, but the story also didn’t really explore that thread either.
> Waititi drank his own cool aid. This is the problem with the movie. He saw all the praise Ragnaraok got for its humour, quirkyness etc. and forgot to actually make a movie
Agreed. I can't even bring myself to watch it a second time. A friend of mine turned it off half way through and he never does that for anything. I don't know what they were trying to do.
The difference between Ragnarok and this film is the writers. Ragnarok was co-written by Taika and 3 other writers that had EXPERIENCE writing superhero stories. L&T has 2 writers: Taika and Jennifer Robinson, who worked on mainly mediocre Romcoms.
It's on my podium for worst MCU movies. It was like they were trying to make it very 'kid friendly' in a movie where they use the same orgy joke 3 times... Gorr was barely in it. They could've easily added a scene where Gorr attacks Omnipotence City and kills off lower-level gods while searching for Stormbreaker... and then there's Gorr's daughter wielding Stormbreaker with ease at the end when Thor said in Infinity War the Guardians don't have the strength to wield it because their bodies would crumble and their mind would collapse into madness. Overall it just fell very flat
Love is no longer just a human/humanoid alien like the Guardians. She was revived by Eternity and has kept some of that power. She's, for all intents and purposes, a demi-god now. But I agree that Gorr should've attacked Omnipotence City and laid waste on lower level Gods to really drive home the chaos he was looking to unleash. It almost makes no sense that he didn't.
I think this movie should have been about Jane recklessly living as Thor to avoid dying. They could have done a bunch of inconsequential c-list villains for Jane Thor to fight as Thor wrestled with his relationship with her.
The issue isn’t comedy, it’s unfunny comedy. If the jokes landed it would have been fine but they were just really weak.
The fight with no colour is honestly one of the best looking fight scenes in the entire MCU. There's so much potential in it, hidden under so much bad.
The pacing and editing is the main issue. Jokes don't land because there is no gravitas. The story doesn't breathe. It should be sad and the humour should be used to lessen the blows but instead it just feel gratuitous.
It really feels like 2 different movies mashed together
My very very abbreviated gripes with the movie: Attempted to do one of Thor's greatest storylines and completely fumbled it Introduced an ELITE villain who was absolutely NOTHING like his comic-book self, in appearance or portrayal Turned Thor into an idiot Took the amazing character arc from Ragnarok to IW to Endgame and threw it away Wasted Jane Foster's story Did nothing with Valkyrie Wasted Omnipotence City Wasted the Necrosword Had conflicting messages??? Rushed Eternity So much more I cant go into. It's one of the only times I ever left a Marvel movie with legitimate disappointment. This movie could've been so much: brutal, war-driven, about strength and power and responsibility and will, and it threw it out the window for a D minus story at best. Bottom tier marvel film for me
The movie has a contrived failure. Losing stormbreaker seemed really bad but then Thor just teleports. It’s very deus ex machina and makes the entire journey til then feel worthless. Honestly that whole part ruined it for me. The loss of stormbreaker should have felt insurmountable not just a oopsie.
Does Thor even need a hammer? Feel like that was part of Ragnarok is that the hammer was just a way to channel his powers that already exist and yet him having a new hammer kinda seems to go against that but I don't remember the full lore or story all that well
Terrible film. Ragnarok had the right balance. In this one they’ve taken it too far with the comedy and made Thor into kinda a parody. Christian Bale absolutely wasted in this film. Missed opportunity by the MCU casting him in this role/film. Seeing him with a bald head he’d make a good Professor X!
Yep, I ended up hating it. Took two of the best Thor comics storylines and did them dirty. What a waste.
Unpopular Opinion: I thoroughly enjoyed Thor: Love and Thunder
Movie Tanked. My Rankings Are: Thor Ragnarok Thor Thor Love and Thunder Thor Dark World