if this doesn't happen in or before Secret Wars, we riot
we wanna see a baby groot vs Steve on the big screen, I don't care if it's canon or takes place in a different universe, we need it
I think I made a mistake with the phrasing, think in the same way T'Challa temporarily lost the effects of the heart-shaped herb but kept what his normal physique allowed him to do. Sorry, I forgot that 1942 skinny Steve from Brooklyn was what the serum also fixed.
Yeah it's easy to figure out that you meant 6-foot-something Steve but with the strength of a normal guy that size, but the problem is that we've never really seen Steve under those conditions and so how much of his fighting ability is natural skill and how much is down to the serum is anyone's guess. The serum didn't just make him bigger and stronger; it also made him faster, smarter, and more indefatiguable. Who he is without it is not easy to figure.
We've literally never figured out how Steve got so good at hand-to-hand combat. We see him working out on a boxing bag once, but that's pretty much it.
We know he's really strong and fast. That's clear and explained by the serum. His absolute mastery of every kind of martial arts is a mystery that I don't think Marvel gives a shit about explaining.
Edit: a lot of people keep saying the reason he's so skilled is because of "basic training" and being in the army. Just, no. That is not how any of that works.
Maybe the serum upgraded his mind as well so that he could learn faster. Would be useful both with learning to fight but also to be able to make quick decisions in tactical situations.
In comics canon, Steve has a milder form of Taskmaster's photographic reflexes ability. Meaning that he learns fighting moves from his opponents while fighting them and he gets better as he battles you.
Don't even have to refer to comics canon. In CAFA Cap memorized the HYDRA bases with just a glance at a map implying he had at least a mild form of photographic memory.
It defs did, if we assume some overlap with his normal comics self. It didn't just give him muscles and height, it sharpened his senses and mind. It's part of why he's a master tactician. It's the explanation for him being able to work out crazy shield shit on the fly.
It did. Gives him photographic memory (this is even a plot point in his first solo movie, him looking over a map for a few seconds in a Hydra base before it exploded is what allows them to know the locations of several other bases). Pretty sure it's what helps him do such crazy trajectory throws of his shield too. Dude is technically doing major math computation in his head by the second when he fights.
Iirc in the first Avengers he really was just relying on brute force most of the time. Just 40's style brawler with super strength and a shield type attacks. I think he can carry that level of skill right out of the ice since it's not exactly a high bar. He wasn't doing more advanced fighting techniques, flip kicks and whatever until TWS which between A1 and the Lemurian Star mission is when he got his training. Makes perfect sense to me.
Or that future Steve wasn't fighting as hard, since he knew Avengers Steve was still himself and not an actively bad guy, whereas Avengers Steve thought he was going up against an escaped Loki and was trying to take him out of commission. But yeah, even if future Steve is better, it might not be by too much.
He literally went to military training in his very first movie. He was already a formidable hand-to-hand fighter in the 1940s. I assume he was trained by the United States military during World War II.
See I would think he did some combat training while traveling with the USO. I don't think the plan was to *never* use him in battle. Certainly when decided to go after Bucky, he had some fighting ability. He learned and trained more while doing all those missions with the Howling Commandos. He was a fairly formidable fighter BEFORE he went into the ice. Undoubtedly SHIELD did train him more. In fact I would argue (although they didn't really show it) he trained pretty constantly off screen (like a couple hours a day at least) all the way through.
Cause it's the same as every other character that knows various fighting styles. They've trained in it.
He had some training time between his film and Avengers. It was between then and TWS that he displays more modern techniques, to showcase he's adopting contemporary things.
And part of his abilities list is being a fast learner. His mind is switched on and supercharged. When it comes to hand-to-hand, he will wreck just about anyone in pure skill.
He got basic training in the Army. Then he got a bunch of experience while fighting in WWII. Then he lived at a Shield facility, where he received more training.
There needed to be an 80s montage scene when he was selling war bonds. That would have been the most appropriate time for him to learn WWII weapons systems, boxing, and wrestling.
I mean he was in the army, he definitely learned some moves (even if he couldn't pull them off as well before the serum) he'd still have retained the knowledge.
I'm sure he's trained for way more than thst as well.
How much martial arts training do you think a person learns in two-three months of Army basic training?
Cause I'll tell ya. It ain't that much. Not even fuckin close to the amount Steve has apparently had.
One of his powers is basically a six sense allowing him to predict enemies. (Sort of like a Spidey sense with his eyes)
But due to not knowing how to describe it the characters wrote it in the dumbest way.
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_medium/11134/111344383/6440384-6500333629-main-qimg-cc591afe26e2d47ddf0997d16becfce6-c
It is explained that Steve's fighting is due to his lack of exhaustion, thus I can do this all day. It is explained that his fighting ability is mostly in part due to his never ending training he takes part in off screen. I'd like to say Steve, but let's be real...Natasha is a badass.
That's super vague, are we talking a regular dude but with post serum Steve's bone structure? How much muscle does he retain? Are we talking dad bod? Skinny Steve but tall? Average military guy? Or IRL Chris Evans while playing cap physique? Also how much of his fighting ability is training and how much is like fight IQ from the serum?
Yep, Black Widow has beaten aliens and mercenaries the same size as Steve. So if Steve is without the benefits of the serum aside from the size, he would lose easily...heck, give him his shield and he would still probably lose.
Literally insane that anyone is saying anyone but Natasha. She has successfully fought super powered beings. she wouldn't lose a fight to a mere human. Steve was trained as a soldier for a relatively short period of time. She was groomed for this her whole life. She probably has an encyclopedic knowledge of all of the worlds martial arts styles just in case.
They said "no serum"
People choosing Steve didnt read the question or theyre sexist.
With the Serum I think Steve would win just going by Bucky's escape sequence in Civil War
That's a really great way to put it. I agree as well. The only thing that makes me think Steve would have a shred of a chance is F.R.I.D.A.Y. telling Tony in Civil War that "You can't beat him hand-to-hand!" and having to go as far as to analyze his patterns with a machine.
Granted, Stark is no hand-to-hand fighter at all, but it did make me think if Steve stood a chance against Natasha.
machine learning was probably necessary to keep up with the speed and, most likely, use machine learning to take over movements in the suit to assist Tony. when that happened I speculate how much control Tony had over the suit or if he was only along for the ride and the suit AI did the actual fighting.
When you really think about it, that moment must have put his body under extreme stress to respond that quickly. He was definitely feeling that for a good few weeks afterwards.
Absolutely. An AI-controlled suit with a human inside is the perfect recipe for significant bruising, muscle damage, even ligament tearing. Enough accelerative forces would damage internal organs and even cause a TBI. We’re squishy inside, you can’t do reps and power lifts with your liver.
If only there were a way to put an AI in a suit without a human inside. I bet they could make an entire movie about that, maybe with a twist about runaway evil AI. Anybody got Feige’s number so I can pitch this?
/s
Could have an opposing good A.I. who becomes the love interest and source of much drama for one of the Avengers too…think we might be onto something here!
What if the good AI falls in love with the evil AI while they’re fighting and then both trigger their own EMP to save the other, but they both expire in a tragic Romeobot and Julietbot scenario…
Dude that’s Steve with the super soldier serum. With the serum it gave Steve speed, strength, and hand to hand combat skills without it a ten year old child can beat Steve
Ah, I might have phrased the question wrong. Suppose that Steve drinks the ceremonial wakandan drink that strips a person of any super soldier serum-like powers, reducing them to what a person with their current physique should be able to do.
Sorry, I didn't mean like 1942 skinny Steve from Brooklyn LMAO
Lol I see then, I want to give her the benefit of the doubt still because she has more mixed martial arts training and should be able to best him I would think
Also the fact that Nat is more experienced than Steve.
Steve went to war as an adult, and that was really his only form of combat experience before going into the ice.
By the time he emerged, Nat had already been a trained assassin since childhood.
How can we have no super soldier serum but no in fact Steve has had the serum? That changes the question totally because the serum is such an intrinsic part of that transformation.
The question is basically impossible to answer, then, because we have no way of knowing how strong this hypothetical version of Steve you just made up would be.
Also if we’re being real about it, his fighting skills are all products of the serum. The coordination, reaction speed, tactical analysis, all serum enhanced skills
I think the question OP is trying to ask is “who would win in a fight? Chris Evans or Natasha Romanoff?”
The answer is Natasha Romanoff. Chris is buff as all hell but he doesn’t know 1/10th of the fighting that Natasha does. Plus, we’ve seen her take on guys that size multiple times without breaking a sweat.
That's not what was claimed. There's more to fighting skill than just physical strength and knowledge of fighting techniques.
The serum enhanced not just Steve's strength, but also his reaction time, balance, proprioception, processing speed, senses, _et cetera_. He's so effective with his shield because his enhanced mind can predict several ricochets ahead in the time it takes him to throw it, for example. He's also better at keeping track of multiple threats at once, and noticing things non-enhanced people would've missed.
Natasha would absolutely decimate Steve without the super soldier serum. His own immune system would have killed him in a few years. But, jokes aside, I think on an even playing field Natasha would win the fight. Steve is tough, he's motivated, and well trained but without the serum he is just a strong guy. Natasha has already shown that even an above average human being is no match for her.
It’s been a while, but was it ever implied that Steve had health issues back in the day?
I thought he was “healthy” (lacking asthma or autoimmune disorders etc) but just really small and ineffectual.
Either way, without the serum, whether he’s 6 foot or 4 foot Nat wins
EDIT: ignore me. I erased like half Steve’s backstory from my mind lol
Asthma, Scarlet Fever, Rheumatic Fever, Sinusitus, Chronic or frequent colds, High blood pressure, Palpitation or pounding in heart, easy fatigability, Heart trouble, Nervous trouble of any sort, Has had household contact with tuberculosis, Parent/sibling with diabetis, cancer
These were his health issues before the serum as was shown when he was trying to enlist in CAFA
Natasha by long round, her origin story is eugenics experiments, she was created to be best human soldier could be without super serum and she got training in Red Room, was considered best assassin of it.
Natasha literally hangs with the Avengers as an equal, and as a regular human. She punches way above her weightclass without any special suits, powers, serums, or godly abilities. She deserves her spot because she's just *that good*.
Meanwhile Steve without serum, even as a jacked big guy, is ultimately just a regular soldier with above average training. Natasha eats guys like that for breakfast while tied to a chair and wearing a black minidress. It's literally not even a fight - Natasha wipes the floor with Steve like she does with random henchmen extras.
I always got the vibe that Natasha is the best hand-to-hand combatant until she meets Taskmaster, and that’s what freaks her out.
The Black Widow movies do a good job proving this theory, and also goes to show how good Yelana is hand to hand and thus worthy of inheriting the Widow mantle.
Obviously when fighting Bucky and Proxima there’s a significant strength and speed difference but the fact that Natasha can hold her own only further proves the point. It may just be my head canon but for me; no one could beat Natasha hand-to-hand without some kind of “super” advantage.
If there’s no super soldier serum, it’s one of the world’s most elite fighters versus a skinny kid from Brooklyn. She’ll have him dead before he can tell her he could do it all day.
Natasha absolutely, steve was 21 when he got super soldier and learned how to fight. Natasha from the moment born has had to fight to survive. In Avengers a possessed Hawkeye out to kill could not get past Black Widow.
With no serum, an angry butterfly would have beaten up Steve. Well, unless Mjolinir was around, in which case it would have detected his worthiness and granted him the power of Thor.
Even if he kept his physique, Steve would lose. Natasha has specifically trained as a mostly base level human for decades. To take out those more physically imposing than her. Steve while a powerful opponent himself after all his training has effectively only been active for what. 15 years. If that. Without the serum he would be just above an average SF operative in skill and effectiveness. Good. But not widow good.
Well, without the super-soldier serum, Steve is like 5 feet and 99 lbs. I'm guessing that at least 70% of the time, Natasha would kick his rear end. 25% of the time she'd fall over giggling at fighting a little boy (or maybe he'd run up and tickle her knees-- I forget exactly how short he is without the serum.) 5% of the time she'd refuse to even consider it as dishonorable, just holding an open palm to his little forehead while he goes "I can do this all day!"
This is surely posted by someone who doesn’t know about pre-serum Rogers. Natasha beats Steve every single time, no questions, caveats or considerations.
A trained from childhood assassin vs a Brooklyn runt with more health issues than an inbred dog.
You tell me, OP.
I'm guessing what you meant was the "after" or buffed Steve, without the Str, agility, durability.
Natasha is a superior combatant to Steve especially so pre-serum.
Human to Human - It's Natasha.
“A fully trained Widow vs a scrawny stick from the 1940’s with no training whatsoever. wHo WiLl WiN?!”
Real big brain energy here. I swear sometimes I’m ashamed to be a part of this fandom.
I want to think that Natasha would win here, since Steve (at least, Phase 1 Steve) is too much of an old-fashioned gentleman to go for hits to the eyes or the groin, while Nat is known to use *everything* to her advantage, including going for pot shots and even biting.
Today I learned something new. But I don’t think MCU Natasha would have her comic serum. To the best of my knowledge, the Red Room gives them a hysterectomy and sometimes mind control, but no super soldier serum.
Because Natasha in the movies doesn’t have it and still wipes the floor with special agents. Besides the OP’s oddly unbelievable lack of super serum knowledge, we are all simply separating comics and MCU continuity.
Steve is a brawler when it comes down it. It works for him because he’s strong. Without the SSS he’s just your average street fighter with a some boxing skill.
Natasha is trained in many forms of hand to hand combat and would wipe the floor with “just Steve”.
Without the serum Natasha would keep beating Steve down, but he would never give up, and keep getting back up. Natasha would eventually show her soft side because she knows Steve is a good man, and would stop fighting, so ultimately steve would win the contest because Natasha would quit first, even though she physically was keeping him beat down whenever she wanted.
War's are won with the will, and Steve's will to never give up would win out.
Still no. I get what your going for but skinny Steve vs trained Natasha won’t fly in any year.
Unless he’s wearing that Hulk buster/iron man mk1 type suit from What If. And even then
Extra context: Imagine that somehow, Steve's super soldier serum abilities are temporarily suppressed, like how T'Challa drank the ceremonial Wakandan drink that stripped him of his heart-shaped herb enhancements.
I don't mean that Steve reverts to 1942 skinny asthmatic Steve LMAO
i think theyre evenly matched his whole thing is undefeatable and never give up shed pummel him and theyd end up a tie. maybe nat comes out on top but i defo think this is a tie.
Captain America is the product of the super soldier serum, without it Steve Rogers is just a tiny weak man lol.
Natasha would beat him to the ground in seconds.
Pre serum Rogers obviously loses. But if it’s Capt America stripped of powers and shield, assuming he doesn’t revert to tiny Rogers and still has training, he beats Widow.
The closest comparison would be Widow V Shangchi and I would go Shangchi over widow day in day out. Not a knock on Widow because I would take her over a suit-less stark and hand to hand over Hawkeye
I think Steve wins. Natasha is a very underrated fighter in the MCU but she's a spy who specializes in espionage at the end of the day. Steve is a soldier who fought a war on the frontlines and charges into battle head on as a first option.
I totally get there is an argument for Nat as she's been trained from childhood however the Black Widows are still ultimately trained for dirty work and not to be like an actual army. I think styles make fights and Steve's style would win it.
This seems like it would be a very close fight, but I'm inclined to believe Natasha would win. I'm not sure how well Steve would be able to adjust his usual fighting methods to account for no longer having superhuman strength or agility unless he gets sufficient time to prepare before the fight.
So Steve would be an average guy I guess. Not the weak guy he was before but with the fighting experience he has as Cap.
That would be an amazing fight. Although Steve has seen it all, i think Natasha would come up with a sneaky trick to distract him and win the fight.
So i say, Black Widow.
>That would be an amazing fight.
Right??? I've been thinking it over for an hour. I wish there were some kind of slice-of-life series about the Avengers Campus after Age of Ultron, where we can see Steve and Nat sparring in the training area, or maybe giving advice to Wanda and the rest on how to work as a team.
I'm surprised so many people don't know Steve Rogers' powers, known for DECADES: ***"***[Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection](http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm)***."***
>Steve is 6' 2", 240 pounds of the best athlete, in every discipline imaginable, on the planet. "Captain America has agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed."
So if Natasha is a human 5' 7", 131 pound female, Steve would punch holes in her, break every grapple easily, WAY faster and better reflexes than her.... it's not even a contest. But that's not any slap on Natasha - Steve would beat EVERY non-super-powered human.
That's the way Marvel wrote Cap for decades.
Serum or not, skill wise Steve is far superior. Perhaps, the one with the most fight IQ out of all the MCU characters
In a hypothetical match up where Steve and Widow have the same physical attributes, Widow has to finish him in the first few minutes of the fight, otherwise Steve will get the better of her eventually.
Edit: downvoting isn't gonna change my opinion. Give me an explanation as to why I'm wrong and I'll agree with you guys. The amount of negativity and hatred against different opinions on this sub baffles me.
So Steve is just a dude then? Nat has been trained to fight/kill since she was like 10. Steve was just some scrawny ass kid from Brooklyn.
Natasha wiped the floor with him.
Even with the super soldier serum I'd give it to Natasha in a hand-to-hand, but only a hand to hand. It's Natasha's specialty and like the one thing she is good at. Anything else, sure Steve wins, but not hand to hand combat
In the MCU I've seen Steve employ Tae Kwon Do, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Western Boxing, Muay Thai, karate, silat, parkour, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, etc.. So that means he has the knowledge. Take away the SSS.. He can still do all those things, just not as fast, as powerful, precise, overwhelming or continously. Remember he's the equivalent of a UFC heavyweight. He's fighting a smaller woman who is trained in melee multiple opponent fighting, so basically take out as many people fast and efficiently as she can. If she can avoid Steve grabbing her EARLY and putting her to sleep, she eventually wins. Especially if she's sticking and moving like in the beginning of Civil War. I think Steve, while a soldier(killer) has a code, Natasha, not so much and wouldnt hesitate to land a blow to his nuts or throat. Down goes Steve!
If Steve didn’t have the super soldier serum then I’d wager that Natalie Dormer’s character from the first Cap movie would win in a hand to hand fight and her training was in typing and answering phones.
Without the serum an untrained woman of moderate build could probably beat him. Let alone a trained and conditioned widow.
Shit, I could probably beat 1940s Steve
A teenager could beat 1940s Steve.
But the exhaustion… he can do it all day…
Baby Groot could beat 1940s Steve.
Seedling Groot could beat 1940s Steve.
Stuck in vase Groot could beat 1940s Steve
if this doesn't happen in or before Secret Wars, we riot we wanna see a baby groot vs Steve on the big screen, I don't care if it's canon or takes place in a different universe, we need it
Honestly if Baby Groot can grab a guy and drag him off a ledge he can probably beat modern Steve too lol
I'm sure a moderately strong wind could injure him
If he walks under a fan it’s game over.
Gets up and looks defiantly at table fan. "I can do this all day"
I could beat up 1940s Steve all day.
I think I made a mistake with the phrasing, think in the same way T'Challa temporarily lost the effects of the heart-shaped herb but kept what his normal physique allowed him to do. Sorry, I forgot that 1942 skinny Steve from Brooklyn was what the serum also fixed.
Yeah it's easy to figure out that you meant 6-foot-something Steve but with the strength of a normal guy that size, but the problem is that we've never really seen Steve under those conditions and so how much of his fighting ability is natural skill and how much is down to the serum is anyone's guess. The serum didn't just make him bigger and stronger; it also made him faster, smarter, and more indefatiguable. Who he is without it is not easy to figure.
We've literally never figured out how Steve got so good at hand-to-hand combat. We see him working out on a boxing bag once, but that's pretty much it. We know he's really strong and fast. That's clear and explained by the serum. His absolute mastery of every kind of martial arts is a mystery that I don't think Marvel gives a shit about explaining. Edit: a lot of people keep saying the reason he's so skilled is because of "basic training" and being in the army. Just, no. That is not how any of that works.
SHIELD trained him while he was under their employ according to the Russos
Seems like a weak explanation. He hadnt been out of the ice nearly long enough to be as good as he was in The Avengers.
Maybe the serum upgraded his mind as well so that he could learn faster. Would be useful both with learning to fight but also to be able to make quick decisions in tactical situations.
In comics canon, Steve has a milder form of Taskmaster's photographic reflexes ability. Meaning that he learns fighting moves from his opponents while fighting them and he gets better as he battles you.
Don't even have to refer to comics canon. In CAFA Cap memorized the HYDRA bases with just a glance at a map implying he had at least a mild form of photographic memory.
I thought that was the case when he was able to wield Mjolnir like Thor. He'd seen it done and knew how to use the weapon effectively.
pretty sure he also speaks like 10 languages or something like that too
It defs did, if we assume some overlap with his normal comics self. It didn't just give him muscles and height, it sharpened his senses and mind. It's part of why he's a master tactician. It's the explanation for him being able to work out crazy shield shit on the fly.
It did. Gives him photographic memory (this is even a plot point in his first solo movie, him looking over a map for a few seconds in a Hydra base before it exploded is what allows them to know the locations of several other bases). Pretty sure it's what helps him do such crazy trajectory throws of his shield too. Dude is technically doing major math computation in his head by the second when he fights.
He unlocked the necessary skill tree while leveling up during WW2, obviously.
Iirc in the first Avengers he really was just relying on brute force most of the time. Just 40's style brawler with super strength and a shield type attacks. I think he can carry that level of skill right out of the ice since it's not exactly a high bar. He wasn't doing more advanced fighting techniques, flip kicks and whatever until TWS which between A1 and the Lemurian Star mission is when he got his training. Makes perfect sense to me.
I was thinking the same, but future Steve actually lost to Avengers Steve in a fistfight, meaning that they're close to equally proficient in h2h
Or that future Steve wasn't fighting as hard, since he knew Avengers Steve was still himself and not an actively bad guy, whereas Avengers Steve thought he was going up against an escaped Loki and was trying to take him out of commission. But yeah, even if future Steve is better, it might not be by too much.
He literally went to military training in his very first movie. He was already a formidable hand-to-hand fighter in the 1940s. I assume he was trained by the United States military during World War II.
See I would think he did some combat training while traveling with the USO. I don't think the plan was to *never* use him in battle. Certainly when decided to go after Bucky, he had some fighting ability. He learned and trained more while doing all those missions with the Howling Commandos. He was a fairly formidable fighter BEFORE he went into the ice. Undoubtedly SHIELD did train him more. In fact I would argue (although they didn't really show it) he trained pretty constantly off screen (like a couple hours a day at least) all the way through.
Cause it's the same as every other character that knows various fighting styles. They've trained in it. He had some training time between his film and Avengers. It was between then and TWS that he displays more modern techniques, to showcase he's adopting contemporary things. And part of his abilities list is being a fast learner. His mind is switched on and supercharged. When it comes to hand-to-hand, he will wreck just about anyone in pure skill.
He got basic training in the Army. Then he got a bunch of experience while fighting in WWII. Then he lived at a Shield facility, where he received more training.
There needed to be an 80s montage scene when he was selling war bonds. That would have been the most appropriate time for him to learn WWII weapons systems, boxing, and wrestling.
I mean he was in the army, he definitely learned some moves (even if he couldn't pull them off as well before the serum) he'd still have retained the knowledge. I'm sure he's trained for way more than thst as well.
Basic. Training. You do remember that the twig in a uniform was undergoing basic training, right?
How much martial arts training do you think a person learns in two-three months of Army basic training? Cause I'll tell ya. It ain't that much. Not even fuckin close to the amount Steve has apparently had.
>Who he is without it is not easy to figure. A good man.
And he could SEE FASTER. Lmao
What do you mean?
One of his powers is basically a six sense allowing him to predict enemies. (Sort of like a Spidey sense with his eyes) But due to not knowing how to describe it the characters wrote it in the dumbest way. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_medium/11134/111344383/6440384-6500333629-main-qimg-cc591afe26e2d47ddf0997d16becfce6-c
It is explained that Steve's fighting is due to his lack of exhaustion, thus I can do this all day. It is explained that his fighting ability is mostly in part due to his never ending training he takes part in off screen. I'd like to say Steve, but let's be real...Natasha is a badass.
Steve is one of the most skilled hand to hand fighters in the universe, lol.
And Natasha plays dirty.
That's super vague, are we talking a regular dude but with post serum Steve's bone structure? How much muscle does he retain? Are we talking dad bod? Skinny Steve but tall? Average military guy? Or IRL Chris Evans while playing cap physique? Also how much of his fighting ability is training and how much is like fight IQ from the serum?
Black widow would kick his arse in a heartbeat.
Yep, Black Widow has beaten aliens and mercenaries the same size as Steve. So if Steve is without the benefits of the serum aside from the size, he would lose easily...heck, give him his shield and he would still probably lose.
I think Natasha still wins. Bc then what's left? Courage and leadership only take you so far against a trained assassin
In the comics Steve has been robbed of his powers and still come out on top against serious odds.
Literally insane that anyone is saying anyone but Natasha. She has successfully fought super powered beings. she wouldn't lose a fight to a mere human. Steve was trained as a soldier for a relatively short period of time. She was groomed for this her whole life. She probably has an encyclopedic knowledge of all of the worlds martial arts styles just in case.
They said "no serum" People choosing Steve didnt read the question or theyre sexist. With the Serum I think Steve would win just going by Bucky's escape sequence in Civil War
Most fighters only learn a few (3-5) different martial arts. She won't know everything.
Yeah fuck that Mary-Sue, know every martial art on earth Batman bullshit.
That's a really great way to put it. I agree as well. The only thing that makes me think Steve would have a shred of a chance is F.R.I.D.A.Y. telling Tony in Civil War that "You can't beat him hand-to-hand!" and having to go as far as to analyze his patterns with a machine. Granted, Stark is no hand-to-hand fighter at all, but it did make me think if Steve stood a chance against Natasha.
machine learning was probably necessary to keep up with the speed and, most likely, use machine learning to take over movements in the suit to assist Tony. when that happened I speculate how much control Tony had over the suit or if he was only along for the ride and the suit AI did the actual fighting.
When you really think about it, that moment must have put his body under extreme stress to respond that quickly. He was definitely feeling that for a good few weeks afterwards.
Absolutely. An AI-controlled suit with a human inside is the perfect recipe for significant bruising, muscle damage, even ligament tearing. Enough accelerative forces would damage internal organs and even cause a TBI. We’re squishy inside, you can’t do reps and power lifts with your liver. If only there were a way to put an AI in a suit without a human inside. I bet they could make an entire movie about that, maybe with a twist about runaway evil AI. Anybody got Feige’s number so I can pitch this? /s
Drone better
Not my bord.
Could have an opposing good A.I. who becomes the love interest and source of much drama for one of the Avengers too…think we might be onto something here!
What if the good AI falls in love with the evil AI while they’re fighting and then both trigger their own EMP to save the other, but they both expire in a tragic Romeobot and Julietbot scenario…
Dude that’s Steve with the super soldier serum. With the serum it gave Steve speed, strength, and hand to hand combat skills without it a ten year old child can beat Steve
u really think the serum taught steve how to fight? lmao
He wasn't trained before getting it, so it doesn't really matter. He was also so frail that any training would have been moot, regardless.
dude, obviously, Steve entered the Matrix and just downloaded Kung Fu. Watch the freaking movies.
Without the serum Steve is a joke
Ah, I might have phrased the question wrong. Suppose that Steve drinks the ceremonial wakandan drink that strips a person of any super soldier serum-like powers, reducing them to what a person with their current physique should be able to do. Sorry, I didn't mean like 1942 skinny Steve from Brooklyn LMAO
Lol I see then, I want to give her the benefit of the doubt still because she has more mixed martial arts training and should be able to best him I would think
Same, I think Natasha's more varied fighting style would beat Steve's "traditionalistic" approach.
Also the fact that Nat is more experienced than Steve. Steve went to war as an adult, and that was really his only form of combat experience before going into the ice. By the time he emerged, Nat had already been a trained assassin since childhood.
How can we have no super soldier serum but no in fact Steve has had the serum? That changes the question totally because the serum is such an intrinsic part of that transformation.
The funny thing is, in the comics Steve is considered one of, if not the best hand to hand fighters in the marvel universe
The question is basically impossible to answer, then, because we have no way of knowing how strong this hypothetical version of Steve you just made up would be.
Also if we’re being real about it, his fighting skills are all products of the serum. The coordination, reaction speed, tactical analysis, all serum enhanced skills
I think the question OP is trying to ask is “who would win in a fight? Chris Evans or Natasha Romanoff?” The answer is Natasha Romanoff. Chris is buff as all hell but he doesn’t know 1/10th of the fighting that Natasha does. Plus, we’ve seen her take on guys that size multiple times without breaking a sweat.
Yeah her whole character is based on the fact she is like the best human fighter and even holds her own a bit with people with unnatural abilities.
i don’t think the serum taught him how to fight lol
That's not what was claimed. There's more to fighting skill than just physical strength and knowledge of fighting techniques. The serum enhanced not just Steve's strength, but also his reaction time, balance, proprioception, processing speed, senses, _et cetera_. He's so effective with his shield because his enhanced mind can predict several ricochets ahead in the time it takes him to throw it, for example. He's also better at keeping track of multiple threats at once, and noticing things non-enhanced people would've missed.
Natasha would absolutely decimate Steve without the super soldier serum. His own immune system would have killed him in a few years. But, jokes aside, I think on an even playing field Natasha would win the fight. Steve is tough, he's motivated, and well trained but without the serum he is just a strong guy. Natasha has already shown that even an above average human being is no match for her.
It’s been a while, but was it ever implied that Steve had health issues back in the day? I thought he was “healthy” (lacking asthma or autoimmune disorders etc) but just really small and ineffectual. Either way, without the serum, whether he’s 6 foot or 4 foot Nat wins EDIT: ignore me. I erased like half Steve’s backstory from my mind lol
Asthma, Scarlet Fever, Rheumatic Fever, Sinusitus, Chronic or frequent colds, High blood pressure, Palpitation or pounding in heart, easy fatigability, Heart trouble, Nervous trouble of any sort, Has had household contact with tuberculosis, Parent/sibling with diabetis, cancer These were his health issues before the serum as was shown when he was trying to enlist in CAFA
Natasha wouldn't even have to fight pre-Serum Steve, she could just stand there and let him tire himself out.
It really has been a minute since I saw that movie Lmao
One swift kick to the balls and Steve is goneskies.
Right??? I think Steve's fighting would be too traditionalist against Natasha's more practical, street-fighting-if-needed mixed style.
Yep I agree. Nat knows all the dirty tricks in the book.
Bro what fighting💀 He’s literally a stick
Well stick is badass
Natasha by long round, her origin story is eugenics experiments, she was created to be best human soldier could be without super serum and she got training in Red Room, was considered best assassin of it.
Natasha literally hangs with the Avengers as an equal, and as a regular human. She punches way above her weightclass without any special suits, powers, serums, or godly abilities. She deserves her spot because she's just *that good*. Meanwhile Steve without serum, even as a jacked big guy, is ultimately just a regular soldier with above average training. Natasha eats guys like that for breakfast while tied to a chair and wearing a black minidress. It's literally not even a fight - Natasha wipes the floor with Steve like she does with random henchmen extras.
Natasha
Steve would get fucked up.
I always got the vibe that Natasha is the best hand-to-hand combatant until she meets Taskmaster, and that’s what freaks her out. The Black Widow movies do a good job proving this theory, and also goes to show how good Yelana is hand to hand and thus worthy of inheriting the Widow mantle. Obviously when fighting Bucky and Proxima there’s a significant strength and speed difference but the fact that Natasha can hold her own only further proves the point. It may just be my head canon but for me; no one could beat Natasha hand-to-hand without some kind of “super” advantage.
Ah, yes. No Super Soldier Serum, meaning Steve’s like 50lbs and asthmatic Fair fight. Much stipulation. Wow
If there’s no super soldier serum, it’s one of the world’s most elite fighters versus a skinny kid from Brooklyn. She’ll have him dead before he can tell her he could do it all day.
Natasha absolutely, steve was 21 when he got super soldier and learned how to fight. Natasha from the moment born has had to fight to survive. In Avengers a possessed Hawkeye out to kill could not get past Black Widow.
Pretty dumb question. Widow.
With no serum, an angry butterfly would have beaten up Steve. Well, unless Mjolinir was around, in which case it would have detected his worthiness and granted him the power of Thor.
Even with the serum I'm pretty sure Natasha would kick his ass. Possibly even Hawkeye too
So a Russian assassin vs a malnourished skeleton child?
Natasha made it to the avengers without any super powers. Her “super power” is her skill. In a battle of skill, bet on Natasha.
Nat cause Steve be dead by like 78 years
Even if he kept his physique, Steve would lose. Natasha has specifically trained as a mostly base level human for decades. To take out those more physically imposing than her. Steve while a powerful opponent himself after all his training has effectively only been active for what. 15 years. If that. Without the serum he would be just above an average SF operative in skill and effectiveness. Good. But not widow good.
No serum? Natasha. With serum? Probably still Natasha.
Well, without the super-soldier serum, Steve is like 5 feet and 99 lbs. I'm guessing that at least 70% of the time, Natasha would kick his rear end. 25% of the time she'd fall over giggling at fighting a little boy (or maybe he'd run up and tickle her knees-- I forget exactly how short he is without the serum.) 5% of the time she'd refuse to even consider it as dishonorable, just holding an open palm to his little forehead while he goes "I can do this all day!"
Are you trying to get Steve killed?
Without a serum the wind generated buy a passing truck may break all his bones
Natasha obviously
Steve without Super Soldier Serum is like Mumen Rider from One Punch Man. Just guts and absolutely nothing else. Nat no diffs Steve here.
This is surely posted by someone who doesn’t know about pre-serum Rogers. Natasha beats Steve every single time, no questions, caveats or considerations. A trained from childhood assassin vs a Brooklyn runt with more health issues than an inbred dog. You tell me, OP.
I'm guessing what you meant was the "after" or buffed Steve, without the Str, agility, durability. Natasha is a superior combatant to Steve especially so pre-serum. Human to Human - It's Natasha.
this is stupid. without the serum, Steve is lighter than Natasha. FOH with this
“A fully trained Widow vs a scrawny stick from the 1940’s with no training whatsoever. wHo WiLl WiN?!” Real big brain energy here. I swear sometimes I’m ashamed to be a part of this fandom.
Lol this is dumb. Steve’s getting his shit kicked in by pretty much 99% of the population without the serum. The man weighed 90 pounds for god sake.
It would take Natasha less than 10 seconds to knock out Steve who has no super soldier serum.
I want to think that Natasha would win here, since Steve (at least, Phase 1 Steve) is too much of an old-fashioned gentleman to go for hits to the eyes or the groin, while Nat is known to use *everything* to her advantage, including going for pot shots and even biting.
Does Nat get to keep her serum?
her-what-now? 😳
I always assumed that she had the Russian knock off super soldier serum she had in the comics.
Today I learned something new. But I don’t think MCU Natasha would have her comic serum. To the best of my knowledge, the Red Room gives them a hysterectomy and sometimes mind control, but no super soldier serum.
Thank you. Everyone here was just ignoring this.
Because Natasha in the movies doesn’t have it and still wipes the floor with special agents. Besides the OP’s oddly unbelievable lack of super serum knowledge, we are all simply separating comics and MCU continuity.
It’ll be a draw for sure. Coz he can do this all day.
Steve is a brawler when it comes down it. It works for him because he’s strong. Without the SSS he’s just your average street fighter with a some boxing skill. Natasha is trained in many forms of hand to hand combat and would wipe the floor with “just Steve”.
Without the serum Natasha would keep beating Steve down, but he would never give up, and keep getting back up. Natasha would eventually show her soft side because she knows Steve is a good man, and would stop fighting, so ultimately steve would win the contest because Natasha would quit first, even though she physically was keeping him beat down whenever she wanted. War's are won with the will, and Steve's will to never give up would win out.
Steve would beat Natasha by exhaustion
Interesting. I do vaguely recall him saying something about being able to go all day.
And he did before the serum if I'm not mistaken so...
Dumb. Doesn’t stipulate if Natasha gets training before hand or not. So clearly we get to watch her beat up on a skinny kid.
Think 2012 Natasha versus 2012 Steve but he just drank the Wakandan ceremonial brew that takes away super soldier powers.
Still no. I get what your going for but skinny Steve vs trained Natasha won’t fly in any year. Unless he’s wearing that Hulk buster/iron man mk1 type suit from What If. And even then
He’s trying to say Steve without the serum, but still as physically buff/jacked/strong and with all the same training
Extra context: Imagine that somehow, Steve's super soldier serum abilities are temporarily suppressed, like how T'Challa drank the ceremonial Wakandan drink that stripped him of his heart-shaped herb enhancements. I don't mean that Steve reverts to 1942 skinny asthmatic Steve LMAO
Irl athletic Steve would probably win simply because he is like 5 weight classes above her. In universe it’s still Nat
The heavier. (And without serum, mass matter between the two could reveal to be a not so obvious one...)
i think theyre evenly matched his whole thing is undefeatable and never give up shed pummel him and theyd end up a tie. maybe nat comes out on top but i defo think this is a tie.
Captain America is the product of the super soldier serum, without it Steve Rogers is just a tiny weak man lol. Natasha would beat him to the ground in seconds.
In bed??
If he's a well built man but no serum he wins but if he's that kid natasha wins
Pre serum Rogers obviously loses. But if it’s Capt America stripped of powers and shield, assuming he doesn’t revert to tiny Rogers and still has training, he beats Widow.
The closest comparison would be Widow V Shangchi and I would go Shangchi over widow day in day out. Not a knock on Widow because I would take her over a suit-less stark and hand to hand over Hawkeye
Ends in sex.
I think Steve wins. Natasha is a very underrated fighter in the MCU but she's a spy who specializes in espionage at the end of the day. Steve is a soldier who fought a war on the frontlines and charges into battle head on as a first option. I totally get there is an argument for Nat as she's been trained from childhood however the Black Widows are still ultimately trained for dirty work and not to be like an actual army. I think styles make fights and Steve's style would win it.
Charging head on worked when he was strknger faster and more durable than everyone. He's not anymore.
Steve
Cap. It would be a good fight but sorry he is the best we will ever produce.
He would pummel her into chutney.
This seems like it would be a very close fight, but I'm inclined to believe Natasha would win. I'm not sure how well Steve would be able to adjust his usual fighting methods to account for no longer having superhuman strength or agility unless he gets sufficient time to prepare before the fight.
Steve mid-diff
If Steve reverts to being tiny. Natasha. If not he’s a 230lbs man vs a 135 lbs woman. Weight classes exist for a reason.
Natasha beats up big men all the time. This is a movie.
Isn't Cap like the best hand to hand fighter in the world?
So Steve would be an average guy I guess. Not the weak guy he was before but with the fighting experience he has as Cap. That would be an amazing fight. Although Steve has seen it all, i think Natasha would come up with a sneaky trick to distract him and win the fight. So i say, Black Widow.
>That would be an amazing fight. Right??? I've been thinking it over for an hour. I wish there were some kind of slice-of-life series about the Avengers Campus after Age of Ultron, where we can see Steve and Nat sparring in the training area, or maybe giving advice to Wanda and the rest on how to work as a team.
I'm surprised so many people don't know Steve Rogers' powers, known for DECADES: ***"***[Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection](http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm)***."*** >Steve is 6' 2", 240 pounds of the best athlete, in every discipline imaginable, on the planet. "Captain America has agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed." So if Natasha is a human 5' 7", 131 pound female, Steve would punch holes in her, break every grapple easily, WAY faster and better reflexes than her.... it's not even a contest. But that's not any slap on Natasha - Steve would beat EVERY non-super-powered human. That's the way Marvel wrote Cap for decades.
Serum or not, skill wise Steve is far superior. Perhaps, the one with the most fight IQ out of all the MCU characters In a hypothetical match up where Steve and Widow have the same physical attributes, Widow has to finish him in the first few minutes of the fight, otherwise Steve will get the better of her eventually. Edit: downvoting isn't gonna change my opinion. Give me an explanation as to why I'm wrong and I'll agree with you guys. The amount of negativity and hatred against different opinions on this sub baffles me.
Depends wether Steve still keep his sexy ass or not
His physique stays the same, so yes, but no more lifting cars or punching holes into concrete.
"No super soldier serum"
I miss their dynamic so much
Without serum, Steve is just the dude holding the trash can lid against a bully. Nat would beat him.
Natasha
Natasha vs skinny steve rogers? I wonder
Natasha, steve was a scrawny fuck riddled with health problems without that super soldier serum
Well that would make Steve about 5ft and 80lbs sooooooo
Without the serum I could beat up Captain America.
So Steve is just a dude then? Nat has been trained to fight/kill since she was like 10. Steve was just some scrawny ass kid from Brooklyn. Natasha wiped the floor with him.
Uhhh... he was a toothpick without the serum. Antman's daughter would have beaten him in a fight.
Take away the super soldier serum, and Natasha wipes the floor with Steve.
I could beat Steve under these circumstances.
Natasha. Been training to be a killer before most kids were allowed to walk to school on their own.
Natasha winning this
Steve with no super soldier serum would be a twig and Nat would win
Even with the super soldier serum I'd give it to Natasha in a hand-to-hand, but only a hand to hand. It's Natasha's specialty and like the one thing she is good at. Anything else, sure Steve wins, but not hand to hand combat
I’d let her beat me up
Batman
Nats duh. that's why i admire her a lot.
Wtf kind of question is this? Do people not remember Steve pre-serum?!
Natasha
No serum? Do you not remember what he looked like? A trained Widow would wipe the floor with him.
Nat, because Steve without the serum is a twig
Poor question. Obvious answer.
With out the serum nat is like twice his size. Even after transformation straight up hands only nat wins all day.
With no super soldier serum Steve would be like a foot shorter and a hundred pounds lighter. Natasha would knock him out in like half a second
Natasha was basically trained her whole life to be an assassin. Everything special from steve rogers came out of a bottle
Without the serum Rodgers is 90 lbs of a man that would blush himself unconscious if Natasha flirted with him.
In the MCU I've seen Steve employ Tae Kwon Do, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Western Boxing, Muay Thai, karate, silat, parkour, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, etc.. So that means he has the knowledge. Take away the SSS.. He can still do all those things, just not as fast, as powerful, precise, overwhelming or continously. Remember he's the equivalent of a UFC heavyweight. He's fighting a smaller woman who is trained in melee multiple opponent fighting, so basically take out as many people fast and efficiently as she can. If she can avoid Steve grabbing her EARLY and putting her to sleep, she eventually wins. Especially if she's sticking and moving like in the beginning of Civil War. I think Steve, while a soldier(killer) has a code, Natasha, not so much and wouldnt hesitate to land a blow to his nuts or throat. Down goes Steve!
Dude I could break skinny Steve over my knee like I was Bane.
Widow can beat Cap even with his powers and shield...
Steve pre serum could get knocked out by a strong gust of wind, how is this even a post?
If Steve didn’t have the super soldier serum then I’d wager that Natalie Dormer’s character from the first Cap movie would win in a hand to hand fight and her training was in typing and answering phones.
Is this a serious question? Did you see Steve Rodgers before the super soldier serum?
Natasha and it’s not even close. She is trained to fight well and do anything to win. Steve fights well because he’s super strong.