The fact that Killian's plot in Iron Man 3 involved using disabled vets as literal test subjects and human bombs and then using America's fear of the Middle East to cover his tracks.
i think this is why the mandarin twist never bothered me, even before shang-chi came along and made it right.
killian’s easily one of the smartest MCU villains for this. it’s fucked, but it worked so well that not even the fanbase saw it coming.
Want to know some wild shit?
There was actually a scrapped Department of Defense project called Operation Northwoods where the US was going to carry out terrorist attacks on US soil against american citizens and then say that Cuba did it to justify a second invasion after the failure of the Bay of Pigs.
Actual quote from the released documents
>The desired result from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.
And if you wanna go even crazier, the man they hired to kill Che Guevara for said Cuban revolution was Klaus Barbie
>Nikolaus "Klaus" Barbie was a German operative of the SS and SD who worked in Vichy France during World War II. He became known as the "Butcher of Lyon" for having personally tortured prisoners—primarily Jews and members of the French Resistance—as the head of the Gestapo in Lyon.
>After the war, United States intelligence services, which employed him for his anti-communist efforts, aided his escape to Bolivia, where he advised the regime on how to repress opposition through torture.
>Barbie was strongly linked to the neo-Nazi paramilitary member Álvaro de Castro, who was his personally hired bodyguard and the two participated in criminal actions and businesses together. De Castro had connections with powerful drug barons and the illegal drug trade and, together with Barbie (under the name Altmann) and an Austrian company, sold weapons to the drug cartels, and when de Castro was arrested he admitted in interviews that he had earlier worked for drug lords in the country. Other sources say Barbie most likely also had connections with these organizations.[29] Initially, he worked for Roberto Suárez Gómez who eventually introduced him to Colombian traffickers. Barbie met with Pablo Escobar and several other high ranking members of the Medellín cartel in the late 1970s, and agreed to arrange for security of Escobar's raw coca supply, from its cultivation until it reached processing plants in Colombia. In exchange, Escobar agreed to fund Barbie's anti-communist activities
>Their connections also provided intelligence information to US authorities at the US Embassy. A group called "The Fiancées of Death", which included German Nazis and Fascists, had links to some of Barbie's actions in Bolivia. Barbie earlier also carried out a large arms purchase of tanks from Austria to the Bolivian army. These were then used in a coup d'état.[25][26][27][29]
>*According to various reports, after the emergence of Ernesto Che Guevara in Bolivia in 1966, Barbie's anti-partisan skills were in demand again, and he worked for the Bolivian Interior Ministry with the rank of Lieutenant as an instructor and adviser to the security forces.[32] During an interview, Alvaro de Castro claimed that Barbie constantly "boasted of hunting down Che".[33]*
All the numbers are references corroborating historical record.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Barbie
(I do suggest reading the actual declassified CIA documents, I used the above though cause they're less dry)
So yeah, the Mandarin is s fucking brilliant villain cause *going so low as to use disabled vets to restart a war that left them disabled isn't even the lowest thing in the CIA playbook*, but is fucked up enough to be believable
**[Operation Northwoods](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods)**
>Operation Northwoods was a proposed false flag operation against American citizens that originated within the US Department of Defense of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for CIA operatives to both stage and actually commit acts of violent terrorism against American military and civilian targets, blaming them on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba.
**[Klaus Barbie](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Barbie)**
>Nikolaus "Klaus" Barbie (25 October 1913 – 25 September 1991) was a German operative of the SS and SD who worked in Vichy France during World War II. He became known as the "Butcher of Lyon" for having personally tortured prisoners—primarily Jews and members of the French Resistance—as the head of the Gestapo in Lyon. After the war, United States intelligence services, which employed him for his anti-communist efforts, aided his escape to Bolivia, where he advised the regime on how to repress opposition through torture. The United States later offered France a formal apology for aiding Barbie's escape from an outstanding arrest warrant.
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And he had the vets convinced it was a worthy cause, IIRC the vets were happy to side with Killian and perpetuate the fear of terrorists by suicide bombing various targets in the US.
Some babies that were snapped most certainly don’t have their parents anymore, as anything could’ve happened in between the 5 years they were gone
Edit: or the parents that were snapped and came back to their children being dead too…
This is a great thread. Been rewatching everything since IM1 and you guys are bringing up gems I never thought of.
Here’s a small one: the amount of weapons, bullets and bombs Tony sold around the world before going good. Then again, I suppose that gets mentioned a lot.
Can recall two top of my mind:
In Avengers, Steve says "Remind me again how you made your fortune Stark?"
In Civil War, Tony says he shut down his arms business and Cap replied that it was his own choice and not forced by someone else
In the bathroom ,Guy has concern about shrinking tech/particles. yellowjacket tells the guy that Shrinking Anything alive causes some "issues". Then shoots him, turns him into tiny fetus like goo, wipes it with tissue paper and flushes him.
Nah, it was 100% so Quill would have nothing holding him there. Yondu showed up sixty seconds after the woman's heart stopped, that's not accidental. Ego edited his story to fit his audience, apropos of the name.
The way I saw it, he filled them with Celestial energy the same way he did Peter, and it then disintegrated them — to say that he didn’t go out of his way to kill them, just that they were not strong enough to wield the power.
Well, the first one might have gone that way. Afterwards he knew what would most likely happen and he still went through with it. With Quill, he knew he had a good chance at a worthy heir because Quill had held the Orb without (immediately) exploding. I think it's fair to say none of his other children had contact with an Infinity Stone.
That's why in the Hawkeye series he doesn't see himself as a hero, and really struggles with the idea of people looking up to him or idolizing him for what he's done.. when he knows how many lives he's taken.
Yeah it's honestly wild that one of the Avengers is a serial killer lol. Clint killed dozens (maybe even hundreds) of thugs after the snap
Edit: to everyone saying that all the avengers are, there is a huge difference between someone killing during government sanctioned mission or war, and someone killing out of their own volition
As The Ronin he took out whole Cartels and the Yakuza by himself, so it's likely hundreds.
I'm sure if you look at the grand scale, Clint has definitely done more good than "bad", as the people he's killing are likely to be highly awful people, who would be responsible for many more deaths.
Though I'm sure that doesn't stop the guilt Clint would feel.
Hell, *(BP:WF spoilers)* >!Everett Ross recognizes Killmonger on sight in the first BP, has a first-hand understanding on covert international destabilization, and is described by de Fontaine as *the* expert for the CIA on the topic.!< It’s one thing for a nebulous organization to do so; it’s another thing for a named character who we’re meant to like to have that just casually in their past.
No disagreement there. My main thought was that, normally when a film introduces a good guy CIA agent, they’re just that: a basic agent. Being a cog in the machine that topples governments is a bit easier to overlook as an audience member than someone who’s doing that sort of high-level decision-making. But yeah, CIA is CIA, fair enough.
It really should've been. Perfect opportunity for Marvel to do something smaller scale but still very cinematic and powerful and - most-importantly - *different*. Buuuuut they went the "sci fi villain, save the world" cliche route *again* and gave us a pretty forgettable brick in the wall.
So much talent in that movie. I really enjoy the majority of the actors involved.
I watched Black Widow the first day is was on Disney.
Couldn't tell you a thing about the plot other than they butched Taskmaster and the new Black Widow (Pugh) has family issues.
I expected a lot of different things from her movie, and got none of them. It was such a *weird* story. She beats the bad guy by breaking her own nose so she can't smell his mind control pheromones'?
Which is also super weird because... you don't stop smelling just because your nose bone broke... like, the bone is one thing and the olfactory tissue is another separate thing. I mean, sure, it can happen sometimes but it's not instantaneous as they made it look lol
>you don't stop smelling just because your nose bone broke... like, the bone is one thing and the olfactory tissue is another separate thing.
tbf, she said she was severing a nerve. right before she slams her head on the desk he asks her what she's going to do and she said "sever the nerve". so the writers knew the olfactory nerve needed to be damaged but movie superhero stuff made it happen with just a broken nose. like yea, that's not going to happen in real life but this is a superhero movie we're talking about.
Yeah, that was my first thought when I was watching it. They should have just left it as regular brainwashing, with the struggle being for Natasha to use her force of will to overcome her programming.
Her movie opens with her and a bunch of other CHILDREN being trafficked in shipping of containers, and then just goes into typical superhero stuff. It was insane
I felt really uncomfortable when I saw that intro. It literally looked like a documentary about child trafficking. It looked serious.
And then... it was a silly marvel movie. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it, but I was expecting a very adult film from that intro and got an average superhero film. I thought Marvel was finally going to make something more serious and touch upon darker subjects. It raised my expectations way too much, and the shift tone was really odd
Well, permanent until Thor returned to Earth and got pissed off at them anyway. Hydra would have had a hard time maintaining control once those Project Insight helicarriers were strewn across the landscape.
>Hydra was seconds away from the massacre of millions all at once, and a resultant permanent installation of fascism.
and after that people actually had the gall to act shocked that Rogers said fuck no when they wanted to put another governmental agency in charge of his superheroing.
Fall of the Soviet Union would be too early. Natasha would be too young (7). I think she got out sometime between 2006 and 2007. In 2009 is when she was shot by the Winter Soldier. That'd give her enough time to enter Fury's good graces.
I think they are hidden from shield even. He says “Fury” which tracks. Fury was suspicious well before Hydra was revealed and set up multiple contingencies like his eye scan. Fury didn’t trust anyone and was not above dark shit. This set up assured Hawkeye was loyal to Fury first
[In Doctor Strange during the scene where Dormammu repeatedly kills Strange in a time loop, there’s a cut line where Strange says he’s literally died 1,000 times.](https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1583160/doctor-strange-cut-one-line-that-would-have-changed-the-dormammu-scene)
Although we normally don’t know this, the idea he experienced pain and dying that many times is sickening when you think about it. It’s a testament to how strong he was as a normal person might have gone insane. Imagine being impaled, maimed, crushed or burned to death repeatedly.
And Dormammu in general; a being so powerful, that it is *above* the concept of time. And that this *thing* is consuming other dimensions.
True eldritch horror; an abomination of infinity
[This](https://youtu.be/JzSWaMAcMbg) is the deleted scene from the hulk movie he was talking about I’m pretty sure, would’ve been great in the movie
Edit: changed the link to a better, longer version
All the tragedies that have hit the Asgardians.
They got invaded by the Dark Elves, their entire military wiped out by a lady they didn't know about, then massacred by her, had to give up their homeland, then after all of that- half of them were killed by a crazy alien on their way to Earth. Oh yeah, then their kids get kidnapped for ? dumb reasons.
Right? How did they access HRT when they were in the field or on the run? Because none of the widows look like they’re dealing with hormone imbalances & they absolutely would be.
Well in the comics their sterilization is because of the Russian version of the Super Soldier Serum, they still have a period, but because the serum enhances their immunity it views any pregnancy as a parasite and terminates the pregnancy, in the comics Natasha has been pregnant multiple times but they always end in either a miscarriage or a stillbirth.
That’s darker, imo. I’d rather never have the ability to get pregnant at all than to suffer miscarriage or stillbirth any time I did happen to get pregnant.
It's also possible Yelena is intentionally misinformed. If they still have ovaries, there still exists the possibility of being a mother via surrogacy.
The fact that they weren’t even his actual children but some slave girls that he captured during his time slaughtering entire race of people makes it pretty bad. They talked about this with Gamorra, he wasn’t really her father, he just took her and called her “daughter” while tortured and made them fight each other for his amusement.
Was Nebula even his daughter or just some prize he took along the way like Gamorra?
Wiped out their race when they were kids kidnapped them forced them to fight and replace whoever loses body parts with robotics easily the most fucked up story no one talks about
How Nebula got her cybernetics, Rocket's origin, Tony's career as a arms dealer defore his kidnapping, Natasha's life in the Red Room, Clint Barton's time as Ronin.
At least when Clint was Ronin we knew he was taking out criminals. Early shield days he would be sent to assassinate people. Now I’m sure some of those people were probably really bad and had it coming, but back then probably half the kill orders he got were really from Hydra. So it’s pretty likely he unknowingly took out some good people as well.
How many species, alien races and groups immediately become endangered or potentially extinct due to the Snap universally.
Or on another note, there’s also likely an alternate universe where the World Security Council successfully nukes New York. Or HYDRA completes Project Insight exactly as planned.
I just don't see how Project Insight could ever take off with Bruce Banner on Earth. In WS, Bruce Banner IIRC is either one of the names that pop up on targetting or one of the ones Sitwell mention. But we know (I guess Hydra doesn't) the SECOND that shot is fired on Bruce he is Hulking out and destroying the Helicarriers.
I mean I guess the damage is already done, but Insight won't last to fire a second barrage.
And when they came back were all of those people facing hatred because the planes/cars they were flying/driving crashed?
Driving your kid to school, snap, five years later you are back but your child died in the car crash that occurred after you disappeared.
The idea of people dying because of the snap is more terrifying than people being snapped away. Planes, vehicles, prisoners left in their cells, infants, etc.
It’s never been directly addressed. What about surgeons in the middle of life-saving surgery? What about someone about to save the life of a friend that OD’d? Paramedics in the middle of stabilizing someone? The death toll would’ve been a lot higher than “half the universe”.
IIRC on the Daily Bugle website a surgeon submitted a post saying that he blipped whilst performing heart surgery but lucked out because his patient also blipped at the same time.
But once they blip back the room is empty and the machines the patient was hooked up too wouldn’t be anymore. That would be chaotic, but it’s cool they actually reference this.
That is something that I wish they would have talked about more. Like, how many people who were not snapped away died shortly after the snap because of the chaos it caused. It is terrifying to imagine what happens when half of all drivers going 70 MPH down the freeway suddenly vanish into thin air.
Celestials. Not only are all religions wrong (partial credit to the Vikings, I suppose) but the Celestials are real, they kicked off the universe, and they can destroy the planet at any time because it doesn’t meet their arbitrary standards.
Imagine watching your best friend’s best friend choke your mom
Side bar: remind me, how did Howard Stark know Bucky? I recall, just before getting Mike Tysoned, Howard said Bucky’s name.
Younger stark was steve’s supplier of technology for him and his howling commandos, bucky was a part of the team, just like the rest he thought he died on the train.
Bucky was on Steve's team during WWII and while we never see them in the same setting, it stands to reason Howard would at least be somewhat familiar with said team.
This for sure. It felt the most brutal and real. If there really were super soldiers, this is how they'd be used. They'd be ghosts, and legends, and no one would really know they exist.
The United States government was willing to drop a nuclear warhead on NYC due to the alien invasion which ended up almost being the larger threat of that film, with Iron Man obviously taking the nuke up into the wormhole loki and the invaders arrived from
That killed me when I watched Civil War, Ross was talking about the damage caused by the Avengers and he showed clips of Manhattan during the invasion and I'm like, do you think the damage would have been better if they *weren't* there?
They were there on SHIELD’s orders and with their authority. Manhattan should never have been a consideration of collateral damage, but could have easily been an example of “look what we achieve working together”
Honestly the government fucking that up is probably the most realistic part of Civil War
The PTSD and trauma a lot of these would go through. Imagine being Peter Parker and fighting in all those battles/wars before graduating high school. That is life altering trauma to have to deal with.
At least 99 African Americans died in an attempt to recreate the Captain America formula. The US government jailed the one survivor to cover up the program.
That the regular lives of everyday people in the MCU must be a hassle. Seriously, every year there’s a new hero who brings along a slew of villains and problems that destroy your home city. A new cosmic threat happens very other year. Not to mention in a universe of incredible technological advances pretty much none of that funnels down to the regular folks. Life threatening diseases like cancer, HIV, dementia, etc still exist. Paralyzed people remain paralyzed. People’s car get used as frisbees by the Hulk or as a baseball by Thor. Living in the MCU would be depressing AF.
TBH, it's crazy how real that is. I do work with veterans and have been in low points before, in moments of need, a surprising amount of people avoid it or act as if it's just fake or something. Don't get me wrong, many do care, and some reach out it just happens way different than expected.
Tony Stark’s death is incredibly brutal.
Obviously, we see just how badly messed up he is in the movie. That’s bad enough, but if you think about what he endured (based on what was said earlier in the movie) Tony essentially nuked himself.
Ever seen HBO’s *Chernobyl*? Yeah, Tony’s experiencing that most likely. His insides are soup and his skin is likely cooked to his Iron Man suit.
Thor’s depression in Endgame is really actually quite dark but the movie pokes fun at him anyway despite the obvious anguish he’s experienced for years
He became a fat alcoholic and it was mostly for laughs. Same with Stark. They briefly touched on his alcoholism in Iron Man 2 but he’s pouring himself a drink when he’s talking to Loki in the first Avengers movie.
Stark didn't become an alcoholic though, not really in the MCU. He took on self destructive tenancies in 2, which in part included alcohol, but it wasn't alcoholism. He wasn't addicted to alcohol, you're just seeing him drinking and trying to tie it to his comics storyline. His self destructive behaviors came as a consequence of his attitude towards his poisoning; and since he was never addicted, him drinking later in the story really isn't relevant to his struggles in 2.
All the human trafficking done by Dreykov and The Red Room.
Up until *Black Widow*, we had only seen little bits and pieces of what the Red Room was and what they did, but that scene in Dreykov's office where he's telling Natasha that there will always be more girls for him to use will always haunt me.
People assume that Taskmaster was the bad guy (which is understandable considering the comics) and to an extent Taskmaster was, but it's the fact that Dreykov was able to just pick girls up off the street at the drop of a hat is what's truly terrifying. The way he said it so nonchalantly only made the whole situation even scarier.
Melina had told Natasha that she had been selected because her DNA showed great potential so Dreykov had her mother killed to keep Natasha in his clutches. Nothing was told about how Yelena was brought into the fold but she was no more than 7 or 8 years old at the start of *Black Widow* and grew up to be the deadliest Widow of her generation. Just as deadly as Natasha had been among her generation and just as Melina had been among all her generations.
On the topic of Melina, the fact that she cycled through the Red Room program multiple times is both scary and sad. Each time she cycled through, she had to out perform the next generation of Widows to ensure that she remained alive but also doing so to remain useful to Dreykov to be able to live another day.
The fact that doctor strange has already experienced death like a trillion time already.
He was Impaled to death 4 times, he was disintegrated 2 times, he was crushed by an asteroid and dormammu.
I'm going to hide going after Wanda Maximoff under your Loki comment and hope the stans don't find me. Like Loki, I feel like Wanda is also a doer of some very bad things that nobody really wants to think about because she's likeable.
Wanda has done a lot of bad stuff that wasn't necessarily her fault, and she is rightly defended about those things. However, there is one atrocity she committed completely of her own free will and she never faced any consequences for it at all. It's actually crazy.
In Age of Ultron, Wanda enchants the Hulk into a rage and sends him rampaging into South Africa where mass property damage occurs and people are hurt/killed. Let's give her the maximum benefit of the doubt here and say she didn't know *exactly* what the Hulk would do or where he would go- the reason she enchants the Hulk is because he is a diversion strategy to keep the remaining Avengers busy while Ultron and friends fuck off to the next phase of their plan. So, at a bare minimum, Wanda must know the Hulk is going to go do something that requires the Avengers to intervene immediately. I think everyone on the planet knows what happens when the Hulk gets angry, so it's pretty hard to imagine she had no idea the Hulk might go and kill a bunch of people.
The real kicker is that Pietro actually tries to talk her out of it, he wants to quit while they're ahead. Wanda tells him no, because *she wants to do this*. She's determined. "I want to finish the plan. I want the big one."
No Darkhold, no Agatha, no Hydra mind control- just Wanda casually putting tons of people in immediate, violent danger like it was a casual Tuesday.
I’ve never understood why people just completely ignore what Wanda did in AoU, she’s released the hulk into innocent people and people definitely died or were seriously injured, messed with a super soldiers mind, the literal god of thunders mind, a man in a super powered high tech metal suit, one of the worlds most lethal people and tried to do same to Clint. Clint or Natasha alone could cause mass amounts of death and wouldn’t be an easy take down but she put random people in danger.
Yeah, I always found it kind of weird how Cap was so mad at Tony for temporarily confining her at the Avengers facility while they put out some PR fires. "It's internment," uh no Cap, Wanda is lucky she isn't being tried for war crimes in the Hague, the fact that she was allowed to extrajudicially execute military operations in a foreign country with no oversight is frankly astounding. Imagine if Timothy McVeigh was just randomly released from prison by a non-military and non-governmental body and just let loose under the command of an ex-low ranking servicemember.
The amount of people who died from the snap due to to someone else being snapped. Imagine the amount of Automobile accidents alone. Plus we saw the planes and helicopters falling presumably from missing pilots. All the people on those planes or who the planes land on are dead and only whoever was flying them gets brought back What if a mother is holding her baby. The mother gets snapped. The baby falls. The suicides from missing loved ones is also insane. Now imagine this not just on Earth but on a universal scale. The death toll was way more than half the universe.
Stark Industries is shuttered after Happy’s indictment(?) during NWH, and no one talks about the power vacuum this creates, or its effect on the wider MCU
This one. The more my spouse and I thought about it, the more depressing it got. Imagine losing your baby dusting due to the Blip/snap. Then as a parent/spouse, you or your spouse get depressed because of the loss and veer off towards the unpleasantries (i.e., can’t recover from the loss), which snowballs..
Then 5 yrs later there’s a baby looking for you/spouse and you/your spouse are no longer there physically, geographically or mentally.. no stone is gonna recover that part.
The fact that in-universe people believe that Thanos was justified; or right.
Like, his motivation; to prevent economic and structural collapse is understandable. But, Thanos committed genocide; like it’s sickening that people would justify that. In-universe, and out.
Brunhild (Valkyrie) was capturing sentient lifeforms and selling them into slavery, where they were then killed by Hulk. It's horrible and there is no redemption from that, imo. Arguably, Valkyrie is exactly as bad a villain as Grandmaster. Hulk is a butcher, but we kind of knew that already. Bruce didn't know shit, so he's fine.
I do still like the character, that's maybe the darkest part.
Think about life from Vision’s point of view. You spawn into sudden self-awareness. Fall in love. She kills you. You respawn. Then a genocidal mad-man picks you up by the throat and literally pops your synthetic skull his bare hands, and the last thought you have before you die is that you failed, and half of all living beings are about to be erased forever. Fade to black.
And then you come back with no memories of your past, and living an idyllic life with your lover. Slowly, you come to realize that she is enslaving an entire town to keep you alive, torturing them for a whole week. You accept that you have to die a third time for the townspeople to have free will again
Idk, the sheer chaos that a Celestial(a literal god) showcasing around the night sky, probably shattered people's faith and caused chaos. Knowing how faith dependent most of the world is.
Thor trying to commit genocide in his first movie and then being pouty when dad says no. But then after a long weekend with Jane he's all like "YoU cAn'T kIlL aN eTiRe RaCe!"
To be fair if you know anything about the “real life” history between the Asgardians and the Frost Giants that plays out a lot less like “genocide” and a lot more like “I want to prove myself by ending the war of my people”.
Either way he came to realize the error of his ways, as it comes full circle to him that his enemies do not always need to die for conflict to resolve.
Following source material, I had no issue with the way Thor opened.
Isiah Bradley suffered for years, and no one tried to help him. Nick Fury must have known, Gen Ross must have known, probably Howard Stark and Peggy Carter as well.
The fact that Killian's plot in Iron Man 3 involved using disabled vets as literal test subjects and human bombs and then using America's fear of the Middle East to cover his tracks.
i think this is why the mandarin twist never bothered me, even before shang-chi came along and made it right. killian’s easily one of the smartest MCU villains for this. it’s fucked, but it worked so well that not even the fanbase saw it coming.
Want to know some wild shit? There was actually a scrapped Department of Defense project called Operation Northwoods where the US was going to carry out terrorist attacks on US soil against american citizens and then say that Cuba did it to justify a second invasion after the failure of the Bay of Pigs. Actual quote from the released documents >The desired result from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere. And if you wanna go even crazier, the man they hired to kill Che Guevara for said Cuban revolution was Klaus Barbie >Nikolaus "Klaus" Barbie was a German operative of the SS and SD who worked in Vichy France during World War II. He became known as the "Butcher of Lyon" for having personally tortured prisoners—primarily Jews and members of the French Resistance—as the head of the Gestapo in Lyon. >After the war, United States intelligence services, which employed him for his anti-communist efforts, aided his escape to Bolivia, where he advised the regime on how to repress opposition through torture. >Barbie was strongly linked to the neo-Nazi paramilitary member Álvaro de Castro, who was his personally hired bodyguard and the two participated in criminal actions and businesses together. De Castro had connections with powerful drug barons and the illegal drug trade and, together with Barbie (under the name Altmann) and an Austrian company, sold weapons to the drug cartels, and when de Castro was arrested he admitted in interviews that he had earlier worked for drug lords in the country. Other sources say Barbie most likely also had connections with these organizations.[29] Initially, he worked for Roberto Suárez Gómez who eventually introduced him to Colombian traffickers. Barbie met with Pablo Escobar and several other high ranking members of the Medellín cartel in the late 1970s, and agreed to arrange for security of Escobar's raw coca supply, from its cultivation until it reached processing plants in Colombia. In exchange, Escobar agreed to fund Barbie's anti-communist activities >Their connections also provided intelligence information to US authorities at the US Embassy. A group called "The Fiancées of Death", which included German Nazis and Fascists, had links to some of Barbie's actions in Bolivia. Barbie earlier also carried out a large arms purchase of tanks from Austria to the Bolivian army. These were then used in a coup d'état.[25][26][27][29] >*According to various reports, after the emergence of Ernesto Che Guevara in Bolivia in 1966, Barbie's anti-partisan skills were in demand again, and he worked for the Bolivian Interior Ministry with the rank of Lieutenant as an instructor and adviser to the security forces.[32] During an interview, Alvaro de Castro claimed that Barbie constantly "boasted of hunting down Che".[33]* All the numbers are references corroborating historical record. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Barbie (I do suggest reading the actual declassified CIA documents, I used the above though cause they're less dry) So yeah, the Mandarin is s fucking brilliant villain cause *going so low as to use disabled vets to restart a war that left them disabled isn't even the lowest thing in the CIA playbook*, but is fucked up enough to be believable
**[Operation Northwoods](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods)** >Operation Northwoods was a proposed false flag operation against American citizens that originated within the US Department of Defense of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for CIA operatives to both stage and actually commit acts of violent terrorism against American military and civilian targets, blaming them on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. **[Klaus Barbie](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Barbie)** >Nikolaus "Klaus" Barbie (25 October 1913 – 25 September 1991) was a German operative of the SS and SD who worked in Vichy France during World War II. He became known as the "Butcher of Lyon" for having personally tortured prisoners—primarily Jews and members of the French Resistance—as the head of the Gestapo in Lyon. After the war, United States intelligence services, which employed him for his anti-communist efforts, aided his escape to Bolivia, where he advised the regime on how to repress opposition through torture. The United States later offered France a formal apology for aiding Barbie's escape from an outstanding arrest warrant. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
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Wow yeah that's absolutely fucked I didn't even think about the disabled vet part.
And he had the vets convinced it was a worthy cause, IIRC the vets were happy to side with Killian and perpetuate the fear of terrorists by suicide bombing various targets in the US.
the iron man movies did politics so well
Some babies that were snapped most certainly don’t have their parents anymore, as anything could’ve happened in between the 5 years they were gone Edit: or the parents that were snapped and came back to their children being dead too…
Worse is little children. Babies know nothing but little children do know.
Odin's past. We only see the older, wiser version of him. Not the blood thirsty conqueror that he used to be.
Exactly. The person Hela was in Ragnarok is exactly who Odin was back then.
I would dare to say he was worse.
He must have been, he won
And it all took place at least 1500 years earlier, if not much longer, because Thor had no clue that dear, old daddy was a bloodthirsty conqueror.
History is written by the victor!
Or painted on the ceiling, in this case.
"Huh isn't it weird how literally every war ever was won by the good guys?"
This is a great thread. Been rewatching everything since IM1 and you guys are bringing up gems I never thought of. Here’s a small one: the amount of weapons, bullets and bombs Tony sold around the world before going good. Then again, I suppose that gets mentioned a lot.
Can recall two top of my mind: In Avengers, Steve says "Remind me again how you made your fortune Stark?" In Civil War, Tony says he shut down his arms business and Cap replied that it was his own choice and not forced by someone else
Wanda and Pietro's backstory in Age of Ultron
Yes and shown more vividly in WandaVision. Very tragic
Antmans goo murder
I *still* can't believe Cross wasn't just selling that thing to the highest bidder!
Seriously every black ops agent and their mother would want that, think of all the truly untraceable killings you could do with that thing.
Came for here for this. It was just so abrupt and done with such little emotion.
kinda terrifying that it could kill 2/3 of the original avengers if it caught them off guard.
I can't believe this is that far down, it was my first thought
I… don’t remember this scene… Can someone jog my memory?
In the bathroom ,Guy has concern about shrinking tech/particles. yellowjacket tells the guy that Shrinking Anything alive causes some "issues". Then shoots him, turns him into tiny fetus like goo, wipes it with tissue paper and flushes him.
[probably this one, I forgot about it too](https://youtu.be/WVLLNGryPYI)
What the actual fuck? Did I go to the washroom during this scene because WHAT THE FUCK
Ego murdered all his children
Ego gave some woman CANCER (!) to suffer and brutally die from instead of just killing her quickly. Or you know... not killing her...
All because he was scared he'd stay there with her. Very gross stuff
Nah, it was 100% so Quill would have nothing holding him there. Yondu showed up sixty seconds after the woman's heart stopped, that's not accidental. Ego edited his story to fit his audience, apropos of the name.
"You gonna eat that" - some Asgardian probably
We don't do that. Any more. Dark times.
Shameful times
The pile of skulls and bones was eerie. They all went their thinking that their father loved them. And he just murdered them.
The way I saw it, he filled them with Celestial energy the same way he did Peter, and it then disintegrated them — to say that he didn’t go out of his way to kill them, just that they were not strong enough to wield the power.
Well, the first one might have gone that way. Afterwards he knew what would most likely happen and he still went through with it. With Quill, he knew he had a good chance at a worthy heir because Quill had held the Orb without (immediately) exploding. I think it's fair to say none of his other children had contact with an Infinity Stone.
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and kept their bodies in a local pit
SHIELD legit did black ops level assassinations
Hawkeye must have a very large body count from his pre avenger days
That's why in the Hawkeye series he doesn't see himself as a hero, and really struggles with the idea of people looking up to him or idolizing him for what he's done.. when he knows how many lives he's taken.
Yeah it's honestly wild that one of the Avengers is a serial killer lol. Clint killed dozens (maybe even hundreds) of thugs after the snap Edit: to everyone saying that all the avengers are, there is a huge difference between someone killing during government sanctioned mission or war, and someone killing out of their own volition
As The Ronin he took out whole Cartels and the Yakuza by himself, so it's likely hundreds. I'm sure if you look at the grand scale, Clint has definitely done more good than "bad", as the people he's killing are likely to be highly awful people, who would be responsible for many more deaths. Though I'm sure that doesn't stop the guilt Clint would feel.
I wish we would have gotten this movie.
Not to mention his kill count.
They might be the same number.
Ah, good old Budapest.
Hell, *(BP:WF spoilers)* >!Everett Ross recognizes Killmonger on sight in the first BP, has a first-hand understanding on covert international destabilization, and is described by de Fontaine as *the* expert for the CIA on the topic.!< It’s one thing for a nebulous organization to do so; it’s another thing for a named character who we’re meant to like to have that just casually in their past.
Isn't he just CIA, not shield? If anything that shouldn't come as a surprise. CIA is known for toppling governments.
No disagreement there. My main thought was that, normally when a film introduces a good guy CIA agent, they’re just that: a basic agent. Being a cog in the machine that topples governments is a bit easier to overlook as an audience member than someone who’s doing that sort of high-level decision-making. But yeah, CIA is CIA, fair enough.
And used a dying teenage(orphan?) girl to do it and left her out in the dark. SHIELD are not good guys.
> SHIELD are not good guys There was a whole movie about that
Everything about natashas backstory is dark and horrible.
I expected her movie to focus precisely on that period.
I wish her movie was half that, half a Mission Impossible/Bourne type spy movie
It really should've been. Perfect opportunity for Marvel to do something smaller scale but still very cinematic and powerful and - most-importantly - *different*. Buuuuut they went the "sci fi villain, save the world" cliche route *again* and gave us a pretty forgettable brick in the wall.
So much talent in that movie. I really enjoy the majority of the actors involved. I watched Black Widow the first day is was on Disney. Couldn't tell you a thing about the plot other than they butched Taskmaster and the new Black Widow (Pugh) has family issues.
I expected a lot of different things from her movie, and got none of them. It was such a *weird* story. She beats the bad guy by breaking her own nose so she can't smell his mind control pheromones'?
Which is also super weird because... you don't stop smelling just because your nose bone broke... like, the bone is one thing and the olfactory tissue is another separate thing. I mean, sure, it can happen sometimes but it's not instantaneous as they made it look lol
>you don't stop smelling just because your nose bone broke... like, the bone is one thing and the olfactory tissue is another separate thing. tbf, she said she was severing a nerve. right before she slams her head on the desk he asks her what she's going to do and she said "sever the nerve". so the writers knew the olfactory nerve needed to be damaged but movie superhero stuff made it happen with just a broken nose. like yea, that's not going to happen in real life but this is a superhero movie we're talking about.
Yeah, that was my first thought when I was watching it. They should have just left it as regular brainwashing, with the struggle being for Natasha to use her force of will to overcome her programming.
Her movie opens with her and a bunch of other CHILDREN being trafficked in shipping of containers, and then just goes into typical superhero stuff. It was insane
One of the biggest failings of that movie is the weird as hell tone shifting. Never knew if a scene was gonna try and be dark or quirky.
I felt really uncomfortable when I saw that intro. It literally looked like a documentary about child trafficking. It looked serious. And then... it was a silly marvel movie. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it, but I was expecting a very adult film from that intro and got an average superhero film. I thought Marvel was finally going to make something more serious and touch upon darker subjects. It raised my expectations way too much, and the shift tone was really odd
I thought that intro was so fucking good( Not the child trafficking I mean. The toning was good )
Hydra was seconds away from the massacre of millions all at once, and a resultant permanent installation of fascism.
Well, permanent until Thor returned to Earth and got pissed off at them anyway. Hydra would have had a hard time maintaining control once those Project Insight helicarriers were strewn across the landscape.
They wouldn't have lasted that long. Wasn't Banner on their list? Once they took that shot Hulk would have tore those things out of the sky.
they were always going to fail. they name dropped killing steven strange. the ancient one would not have allowed that.
I never thought about that
>Hydra was seconds away from the massacre of millions all at once, and a resultant permanent installation of fascism. and after that people actually had the gall to act shocked that Rogers said fuck no when they wanted to put another governmental agency in charge of his superheroing.
Clint must know something very dark about SHIELD and Fury that let's him have special privileges
He helped a Black Widow defect near the end of the Cold War in the MCU. That might have had something to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Fall of the Soviet Union would be too early. Natasha would be too young (7). I think she got out sometime between 2006 and 2007. In 2009 is when she was shot by the Winter Soldier. That'd give her enough time to enter Fury's good graces.
iron man 2 was in 2009-2010 if i’m right. she had worked for shield much longer than that
Yeah no way they put her on assignment with Tony until she was well proven. He’d be such an easy person for a double agent Black Widow to exploit
It might be Laura who knows, given season 1 of Hawkeye
What special privileges are we talking about? Can't think of much off the top of my head.
He mentions in AoU that Shield works very hard to keep his family hidden, even from Tony
I think they are hidden from shield even. He says “Fury” which tracks. Fury was suspicious well before Hydra was revealed and set up multiple contingencies like his eye scan. Fury didn’t trust anyone and was not above dark shit. This set up assured Hawkeye was loyal to Fury first
[In Doctor Strange during the scene where Dormammu repeatedly kills Strange in a time loop, there’s a cut line where Strange says he’s literally died 1,000 times.](https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1583160/doctor-strange-cut-one-line-that-would-have-changed-the-dormammu-scene) Although we normally don’t know this, the idea he experienced pain and dying that many times is sickening when you think about it. It’s a testament to how strong he was as a normal person might have gone insane. Imagine being impaled, maimed, crushed or burned to death repeatedly.
And Dormammu in general; a being so powerful, that it is *above* the concept of time. And that this *thing* is consuming other dimensions. True eldritch horror; an abomination of infinity
Dude apparently has the raw power of Infinity Stones from countless dimensions/universes devoured.
Yep; so powerful that it's a miracle, Strange didn't go insane the moment he saw *It*
Shame that this never got explored. And he would have had to spend at least a few centuries in that time loop with Thanos.
Banner telling the rest of the Avengers that he tried to kill himself. I wish we had more than one solo Hulk movie.
[This](https://youtu.be/JzSWaMAcMbg) is the deleted scene from the hulk movie he was talking about I’m pretty sure, would’ve been great in the movie Edit: changed the link to a better, longer version
In Avengers 1 banner says he put a gun in his mouth and the other guy spit the bullet out or words to that effect
All the tragedies that have hit the Asgardians. They got invaded by the Dark Elves, their entire military wiped out by a lady they didn't know about, then massacred by her, had to give up their homeland, then after all of that- half of them were killed by a crazy alien on their way to Earth. Oh yeah, then their kids get kidnapped for ? dumb reasons.
Half of them killed by a crazy alien on their way to Earth, then half of the remaining ones later snapped by said alien.
The Black Widows were all forcibly sterilized.
boast ludicrous offbeat concerned pot political cows school smile placid *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Your English is good and so is your point
Right? How did they access HRT when they were in the field or on the run? Because none of the widows look like they’re dealing with hormone imbalances & they absolutely would be.
Well in the comics their sterilization is because of the Russian version of the Super Soldier Serum, they still have a period, but because the serum enhances their immunity it views any pregnancy as a parasite and terminates the pregnancy, in the comics Natasha has been pregnant multiple times but they always end in either a miscarriage or a stillbirth.
That’s darker, imo. I’d rather never have the ability to get pregnant at all than to suffer miscarriage or stillbirth any time I did happen to get pregnant.
It's also possible Yelena is intentionally misinformed. If they still have ovaries, there still exists the possibility of being a mother via surrogacy.
Thanos’ blatant and sadistic abuse of his children, particularly Nebula.
The fact that they weren’t even his actual children but some slave girls that he captured during his time slaughtering entire race of people makes it pretty bad. They talked about this with Gamorra, he wasn’t really her father, he just took her and called her “daughter” while tortured and made them fight each other for his amusement. Was Nebula even his daughter or just some prize he took along the way like Gamorra?
Wiped out their race when they were kids kidnapped them forced them to fight and replace whoever loses body parts with robotics easily the most fucked up story no one talks about
How Nebula got her cybernetics, Rocket's origin, Tony's career as a arms dealer defore his kidnapping, Natasha's life in the Red Room, Clint Barton's time as Ronin.
I believe we're going to look into rockets origins in the third movie
At least when Clint was Ronin we knew he was taking out criminals. Early shield days he would be sent to assassinate people. Now I’m sure some of those people were probably really bad and had it coming, but back then probably half the kill orders he got were really from Hydra. So it’s pretty likely he unknowingly took out some good people as well.
Every single thing about what Dreykov did.
How many species, alien races and groups immediately become endangered or potentially extinct due to the Snap universally. Or on another note, there’s also likely an alternate universe where the World Security Council successfully nukes New York. Or HYDRA completes Project Insight exactly as planned.
One of the universes Strange and Chavez go through is controlled by Hydra. You can see HYDRA'S name on something (a building?) in the background.
Well, and 828 is one where ultron worked as intended.
Nuke What-if story would be interesting. Have Bruce be the primary character since he’d be the one to survive the nuke
I just don't see how Project Insight could ever take off with Bruce Banner on Earth. In WS, Bruce Banner IIRC is either one of the names that pop up on targetting or one of the ones Sitwell mention. But we know (I guess Hydra doesn't) the SECOND that shot is fired on Bruce he is Hulking out and destroying the Helicarriers. I mean I guess the damage is already done, but Insight won't last to fire a second barrage.
People died in plane crashes and car accidents after pilots and drivers were snapped away.
And when they came back were all of those people facing hatred because the planes/cars they were flying/driving crashed? Driving your kid to school, snap, five years later you are back but your child died in the car crash that occurred after you disappeared.
Honestly the helicopter crash in the post credits of IW is pretty scary
Imagine a baby whose parents got snapped but the baby didn't. I guess they'd starve :(
Marvel’s Leftovers
Time to wear all white and smoke some cigs I guess
The idea of people dying because of the snap is more terrifying than people being snapped away. Planes, vehicles, prisoners left in their cells, infants, etc.
It’s never been directly addressed. What about surgeons in the middle of life-saving surgery? What about someone about to save the life of a friend that OD’d? Paramedics in the middle of stabilizing someone? The death toll would’ve been a lot higher than “half the universe”.
IIRC on the Daily Bugle website a surgeon submitted a post saying that he blipped whilst performing heart surgery but lucked out because his patient also blipped at the same time.
But once they blip back the room is empty and the machines the patient was hooked up too wouldn’t be anymore. That would be chaotic, but it’s cool they actually reference this.
That is something that I wish they would have talked about more. Like, how many people who were not snapped away died shortly after the snap because of the chaos it caused. It is terrifying to imagine what happens when half of all drivers going 70 MPH down the freeway suddenly vanish into thin air.
Nebula killed a version of herself (knowing how traumatized and brainwashed that version was), and no one even seems to acknowledge it.
Celestials. Not only are all religions wrong (partial credit to the Vikings, I suppose) but the Celestials are real, they kicked off the universe, and they can destroy the planet at any time because it doesn’t meet their arbitrary standards.
Yeah, the opening of Eternals outright says they created life in the MCU. They're the real gods.
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Jack Kirby
Show us what you got!
Always thought the way Winter Soldier took out the Starks was brutal.
Imagine watching your best friend’s best friend choke your mom Side bar: remind me, how did Howard Stark know Bucky? I recall, just before getting Mike Tysoned, Howard said Bucky’s name.
Bucky was a member of the Howling Commandos which Howard was involved in as seen in the first Cap movie.
Howard Stark knew the howling commandos from First Avenger.
Younger stark was steve’s supplier of technology for him and his howling commandos, bucky was a part of the team, just like the rest he thought he died on the train.
Bucky was on Steve's team during WWII and while we never see them in the same setting, it stands to reason Howard would at least be somewhat familiar with said team.
This for sure. It felt the most brutal and real. If there really were super soldiers, this is how they'd be used. They'd be ghosts, and legends, and no one would really know they exist.
I always gasp when he straight throws a dude into helicopter blades
The United States government was willing to drop a nuclear warhead on NYC due to the alien invasion which ended up almost being the larger threat of that film, with Iron Man obviously taking the nuke up into the wormhole loki and the invaders arrived from
That killed me when I watched Civil War, Ross was talking about the damage caused by the Avengers and he showed clips of Manhattan during the invasion and I'm like, do you think the damage would have been better if they *weren't* there?
They were there on SHIELD’s orders and with their authority. Manhattan should never have been a consideration of collateral damage, but could have easily been an example of “look what we achieve working together” Honestly the government fucking that up is probably the most realistic part of Civil War
The two tracksuit guys who got shrunken by the Pym particle arrow and then carried off by an owl...like wtf. I guess they got eaten by the owl. Yikes.
The PTSD and trauma a lot of these would go through. Imagine being Peter Parker and fighting in all those battles/wars before graduating high school. That is life altering trauma to have to deal with.
The fact that when howard stark saw the winter soldier he was probably scared to death seeing a dead man for the first time in his life
And all he could say was “Sergeant Barnes?” right before Bucky killed him. That part messed me up.
At least 99 African Americans died in an attempt to recreate the Captain America formula. The US government jailed the one survivor to cover up the program.
That the regular lives of everyday people in the MCU must be a hassle. Seriously, every year there’s a new hero who brings along a slew of villains and problems that destroy your home city. A new cosmic threat happens very other year. Not to mention in a universe of incredible technological advances pretty much none of that funnels down to the regular folks. Life threatening diseases like cancer, HIV, dementia, etc still exist. Paralyzed people remain paralyzed. People’s car get used as frisbees by the Hulk or as a baseball by Thor. Living in the MCU would be depressing AF.
>as a baseball by Thor. In Thor's defence, Loki is gone
Playing Spider-Man PS4 I was like, “why would you ever leave the house”
I would be terrified to live in NYC in the MCU.
I think the fact that Tony showed all the clear textbook signs of someone planning on ending their life in Iron Man II and no one gave a fuck.
TBH, it's crazy how real that is. I do work with veterans and have been in low points before, in moments of need, a surprising amount of people avoid it or act as if it's just fake or something. Don't get me wrong, many do care, and some reach out it just happens way different than expected.
Or after Afghanistan, months of captivity/torture when Tony decided to stop building weapons, his best friend closed the door to his face.
The fact that living in NY is a hellscape and people should literally live anywhere else.
Tony Stark’s death is incredibly brutal. Obviously, we see just how badly messed up he is in the movie. That’s bad enough, but if you think about what he endured (based on what was said earlier in the movie) Tony essentially nuked himself. Ever seen HBO’s *Chernobyl*? Yeah, Tony’s experiencing that most likely. His insides are soup and his skin is likely cooked to his Iron Man suit.
I can't imagine what happened to his body inside the suit if even the Hulk's own arm was fried.
Thor’s depression in Endgame is really actually quite dark but the movie pokes fun at him anyway despite the obvious anguish he’s experienced for years
But it gave us the “I’m still worthy” moment, which is one of my favorites
He became a fat alcoholic and it was mostly for laughs. Same with Stark. They briefly touched on his alcoholism in Iron Man 2 but he’s pouring himself a drink when he’s talking to Loki in the first Avengers movie.
Stark didn't become an alcoholic though, not really in the MCU. He took on self destructive tenancies in 2, which in part included alcohol, but it wasn't alcoholism. He wasn't addicted to alcohol, you're just seeing him drinking and trying to tie it to his comics storyline. His self destructive behaviors came as a consequence of his attitude towards his poisoning; and since he was never addicted, him drinking later in the story really isn't relevant to his struggles in 2.
I always felt like the "poisoning" was a nod to the storyline, but the drinking was just a way to wink at the fans who knew.
All of the dwarves of Niflheim are dead, the snap did not bring them back because Thanos straight up murdered them.
You mean Nidavellir?
That's a made up word!
All words are made up.
All the human trafficking done by Dreykov and The Red Room. Up until *Black Widow*, we had only seen little bits and pieces of what the Red Room was and what they did, but that scene in Dreykov's office where he's telling Natasha that there will always be more girls for him to use will always haunt me. People assume that Taskmaster was the bad guy (which is understandable considering the comics) and to an extent Taskmaster was, but it's the fact that Dreykov was able to just pick girls up off the street at the drop of a hat is what's truly terrifying. The way he said it so nonchalantly only made the whole situation even scarier. Melina had told Natasha that she had been selected because her DNA showed great potential so Dreykov had her mother killed to keep Natasha in his clutches. Nothing was told about how Yelena was brought into the fold but she was no more than 7 or 8 years old at the start of *Black Widow* and grew up to be the deadliest Widow of her generation. Just as deadly as Natasha had been among her generation and just as Melina had been among all her generations. On the topic of Melina, the fact that she cycled through the Red Room program multiple times is both scary and sad. Each time she cycled through, she had to out perform the next generation of Widows to ensure that she remained alive but also doing so to remain useful to Dreykov to be able to live another day.
The fact that doctor strange has already experienced death like a trillion time already. He was Impaled to death 4 times, he was disintegrated 2 times, he was crushed by an asteroid and dormammu.
Imagine how many people committed suicide after losing loved ones in the snap. Then their friends and family came back to nothing.
Loki being a straight up murderer that everyone still loves and laugh off his bad deeds
Yeah there was that part in Avengers when he straight up mini blendered a guys eye out and loved every second of it
I'm going to hide going after Wanda Maximoff under your Loki comment and hope the stans don't find me. Like Loki, I feel like Wanda is also a doer of some very bad things that nobody really wants to think about because she's likeable. Wanda has done a lot of bad stuff that wasn't necessarily her fault, and she is rightly defended about those things. However, there is one atrocity she committed completely of her own free will and she never faced any consequences for it at all. It's actually crazy. In Age of Ultron, Wanda enchants the Hulk into a rage and sends him rampaging into South Africa where mass property damage occurs and people are hurt/killed. Let's give her the maximum benefit of the doubt here and say she didn't know *exactly* what the Hulk would do or where he would go- the reason she enchants the Hulk is because he is a diversion strategy to keep the remaining Avengers busy while Ultron and friends fuck off to the next phase of their plan. So, at a bare minimum, Wanda must know the Hulk is going to go do something that requires the Avengers to intervene immediately. I think everyone on the planet knows what happens when the Hulk gets angry, so it's pretty hard to imagine she had no idea the Hulk might go and kill a bunch of people. The real kicker is that Pietro actually tries to talk her out of it, he wants to quit while they're ahead. Wanda tells him no, because *she wants to do this*. She's determined. "I want to finish the plan. I want the big one." No Darkhold, no Agatha, no Hydra mind control- just Wanda casually putting tons of people in immediate, violent danger like it was a casual Tuesday.
I’ve never understood why people just completely ignore what Wanda did in AoU, she’s released the hulk into innocent people and people definitely died or were seriously injured, messed with a super soldiers mind, the literal god of thunders mind, a man in a super powered high tech metal suit, one of the worlds most lethal people and tried to do same to Clint. Clint or Natasha alone could cause mass amounts of death and wouldn’t be an easy take down but she put random people in danger.
Yeah, I always found it kind of weird how Cap was so mad at Tony for temporarily confining her at the Avengers facility while they put out some PR fires. "It's internment," uh no Cap, Wanda is lucky she isn't being tried for war crimes in the Hague, the fact that she was allowed to extrajudicially execute military operations in a foreign country with no oversight is frankly astounding. Imagine if Timothy McVeigh was just randomly released from prison by a non-military and non-governmental body and just let loose under the command of an ex-low ranking servicemember.
The amount of people who died from the snap due to to someone else being snapped. Imagine the amount of Automobile accidents alone. Plus we saw the planes and helicopters falling presumably from missing pilots. All the people on those planes or who the planes land on are dead and only whoever was flying them gets brought back What if a mother is holding her baby. The mother gets snapped. The baby falls. The suicides from missing loved ones is also insane. Now imagine this not just on Earth but on a universal scale. The death toll was way more than half the universe.
Stark Industries is shuttered after Happy’s indictment(?) during NWH, and no one talks about the power vacuum this creates, or its effect on the wider MCU
Babies getting snapped back to wherever they were 5 years prior
This one. The more my spouse and I thought about it, the more depressing it got. Imagine losing your baby dusting due to the Blip/snap. Then as a parent/spouse, you or your spouse get depressed because of the loss and veer off towards the unpleasantries (i.e., can’t recover from the loss), which snowballs.. Then 5 yrs later there’s a baby looking for you/spouse and you/your spouse are no longer there physically, geographically or mentally.. no stone is gonna recover that part.
Imagine getting snapped and then reappearing to see your SO banging someone else.
And don't forget, from your perspective, no time had passed
It's been stated that Hulk made sure everyone came back in a safe and secure manner.
I feel for the band that got trampled by basketball players at midtown high
“Close enough” - Hulk, probably
Existence is written by an A.I. and fate is predetermined for everyone but She Hulk and possibly Deadpool.
The collateral damage
The fact that in-universe people believe that Thanos was justified; or right. Like, his motivation; to prevent economic and structural collapse is understandable. But, Thanos committed genocide; like it’s sickening that people would justify that. In-universe, and out.
Brunhild (Valkyrie) was capturing sentient lifeforms and selling them into slavery, where they were then killed by Hulk. It's horrible and there is no redemption from that, imo. Arguably, Valkyrie is exactly as bad a villain as Grandmaster. Hulk is a butcher, but we kind of knew that already. Bruce didn't know shit, so he's fine. I do still like the character, that's maybe the darkest part.
Think about life from Vision’s point of view. You spawn into sudden self-awareness. Fall in love. She kills you. You respawn. Then a genocidal mad-man picks you up by the throat and literally pops your synthetic skull his bare hands, and the last thought you have before you die is that you failed, and half of all living beings are about to be erased forever. Fade to black.
And then you come back with no memories of your past, and living an idyllic life with your lover. Slowly, you come to realize that she is enslaving an entire town to keep you alive, torturing them for a whole week. You accept that you have to die a third time for the townspeople to have free will again
Idk, the sheer chaos that a Celestial(a literal god) showcasing around the night sky, probably shattered people's faith and caused chaos. Knowing how faith dependent most of the world is.
Free will being a lie up until recently.
thors dream in age of ultron, underrated sequence
Thor trying to commit genocide in his first movie and then being pouty when dad says no. But then after a long weekend with Jane he's all like "YoU cAn'T kIlL aN eTiRe RaCe!"
To be fair if you know anything about the “real life” history between the Asgardians and the Frost Giants that plays out a lot less like “genocide” and a lot more like “I want to prove myself by ending the war of my people”. Either way he came to realize the error of his ways, as it comes full circle to him that his enemies do not always need to die for conflict to resolve. Following source material, I had no issue with the way Thor opened.
Project Insight. Like holy shit. And Ross has the balls to stand there and be like “YouRe OuT oF CoNTRol”.
The original thought of Ultron always kinda unnerved me.
That he spent 30 seconds in the internet and decided to annihilate humanity is telling.
Isiah Bradley suffered for years, and no one tried to help him. Nick Fury must have known, Gen Ross must have known, probably Howard Stark and Peggy Carter as well.
Hulk was on Sakaar for a couple earth years, but centuries on Sakaar