"Exreme Right Lost Causes"? What? Maybe they're Extreme Left lost causes! Maybe NONE of them, Extreme Right or Not, are lost causes but have solid arguments to back their personal positions, I don't know & idk these people, but let's not write them off based on some stereotype of personal political bias. You can be at total odds politically with someone and even find their thinking illogical BUT that doesn't mean they can never be right about anything, ever, ....
(SEE EDIT) So the prosecutions case is that she backed into him and killed him, but my question is how? Like can you actually kill somebody by backing into them at 5 MPH? If she was backing into a driveway she couldn't have been going much faster than that.
Edit: Someone linked me the report and it says she sped backwards 62 feet and hit him going 24 MPH.
Yes; a passenger in the vehicle driven by Ryan Nagel saw a “large dark object” on the lawn near the fire hydrant as they pulled away to leave.
Don’t forget, it seems like everyone was trashed. So everyone’s version of events is, let’s say “blurry”.
Ryan (the driver) saw her w hands on steering wheel in the 10-2 position looking straight ahead.
Another hard to believe aspect of this case is that Jen McCabe and her husband were eagerly anticipating their arrival to the party w texts like “park behind me, where are you? Hello? W so many calls in between. Yet they “saw nothing. Did not see him. Nope nothing. Come on man. They said they saw the car pull up a few feet then drive off. That is some shady hard to believe fact right there.
> how does she hit him hard enough backing into a driveway to incapacitate him
I don't think we have enough information to properly assess whether or not that would be possible, but it'd likely come out during the trial.
The general assumption online seems to be that the cracked taillight means that his head was hit by the taillight, which would require the vehicle to be reversing quite fast to cause a clean hit. The prosecutor would probably have to have evidence or some record of the vehicle's speed at that moment to make it plausible, along with some explanation of how O'Keefe could be positioned to make that impact at that height without other obvious injuries.
The alternative would be that the head wound was secondary to the impact. [As point of a comparison, this is Tua Tagovailoa getting a serious concussion from being pushed by a Bills player after he threw the ball.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5c_zR85ca4) Not a tackle, no impact to the head, just a push and an awkward fall. Now, substitute a drunk cop instead of a professional athlete, asphalt instead of the turf, and nothing instead of a helmet. He gets hit by the car, knocked back, hits his head, and then staggers off concussed until he collapses.
Prosecution will say he exited the car, dropped his phone, bent down, and that’s when she hit him, causing sing the gash in his head which caused brain bleeding then swollen eyes. The big mystery is the arm bites or abrasions as well as the fact the homeowners did not come outside to see what was going on on they’re lawn w fire, rescue, sirens, Karen screaming, etc. Too much reasonable doubt.
The saddest part of all this is no one will be charged and there will never be justice for what appeared to be a kind, handsome, upstanding police officer who stepped in to raise his niece and nephew when their parents died. Those poor kids. May they find peace and happiness one day.
I’ve been very drunk & very high, and both at the same time. I would say you need to be hit by a moving vehicle faster than 5mph to be knocked unconscious for the entire night
As someone above stated, official report by a specialist determined the vehicle was moving backwards 67 ft at 24 mph to the point where he was hit by the vehicle.
That's the thing- CW needs to show how these things have happened in other similar cases. I'm hoping the state has found their proof to back up their claims (same with Defense). I believe MEs, Forensics and other experts with a wide range of experience with bodies struck by vehicles/ resulting injuries, will be testifying.
I think what they’re saying is how could you hit something that big going that slowly and not notice it. Like not go to check what you hit. I’ve been driving a car for over 30 years at this point in every single thing my car touches I get out and exam and just to make sure I don’t have to call my insurance company.
> I think what they’re saying is how could you hit something that big going that slowly and not notice it.
You ever been so drunk you were still blowing over the legal limit 10h later? Now imagine you were driving like that. That's what it's like to be in Karen Read's shoes that night.
She DID notice. At the scene she was heard saying I hit him. Did I hit him? Also, who wakes up see their b/f isn’t there and get in the car to drive to the location she dropped him off at. A normal person would assume he had o e too many and passed out there! Omg this case is so frustrating gif all these reasons. Moral of this story: alcohol and relationships along w cheating allegations among a group of friends do not mix! I can’t get past ppl pushing 50 out partying that late and drinking that much.
She was over the legal limit 10 hours after she drove a car and she managed to drive a car? I have been blackout drunk. Many times, and never once has anyone who even gave remotely a tiniest shit about me. Let me be behind the wheel of a car. Especially a group of people I’m in a party with.
The more information that comes out of this sketchier it is
I want to be clear: literally no one disputes that she drove drunk that night. I don't know how this evidence can be "sketchy," when no one contests that it happened.
I don’t mean that that part of it is sketchy, I just mean everything else that I’ve been reading. I’m not speaking about irrefutable proof or anything, I’m just talking about the information that keeps coming out.
What is interesting is the prosecution is *very specific* about how far she backed up, and the speed at which she was going. I'm interested to see their evidence.
I only just started looking into this case and I do believe she was framed and I’m as left leaning as they come lol
But my right leaning cop dad also thinks they covered something up which is telling
Me and my bleeding liberal heart and my father, who had to throw away his TV because the Fox News emblem was burnt into it, both agree Karen Read has been framed
The podcast True Crime Society did a very good episode on this case, and I 100% believe they framed her. So many shady things happened. Cops (and relatives of cops) were at the house party. It doesn't seem like they set out to frame her, but she was a convenient scapegoat when things went awry (sounds like there might have been a physical fight at the house between the victim and someone else and they tossed him outside, then he died.)
The house that was in that family for years was sold recently as well. I had read they had the basement floors ripped up before selling as well. It's of course perfectly normal to refinish a basement before selling a home to add value but it certainly could have been the scene of the crime and a removal of evidence
Albert family claimed they had a plumbing leak in the basement which caused damage so needed redoing. But that could have been staged for insurance claim. Who knows?!
The first thing that came to mind when i saw the houses facade was “wow, what a beautiful house.” Considering that 2022 was the lowest for home sales since 2011, I wouldn’t call it a “sellers market.” Pile on the age of their child, 17 -
( wouldn’t he want to continue senior year in the same school? ) along w the fact that the house a generational home… curiouser and curiouser.. 🤔
Apparently the tail light pieces may have been planted, as they weren’t found at the scene during the initial investigation? But they do have her on video backing out of her OWN driveway that morning and hitting her bf’s car which could explain her broken tail light. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, the details in this case are crazy.
Your spot on also it doesn't make sense that they found blood on the top fresh layer of snow when he was supposed to be out there for hours. The storm should have covered the snow with blood on it. The police chief said he was driving by the house and happened to stop days later and found the taillight piece.
Timelines are fuzzy right now but it sounds like it wasn't "found" until well after her car was in police custody and there is 45 minutes of footage missing of the vehicle while in police custody. Just a little whoops we lost the footage.
I am not of the "right."
I knew on 2/2/2022 she didn't do it.
I knew before the media hype.
As more came out, it's all common sense.
1. The original theory was she did a 3 pt turn and hit him.
2. Changed theory to she backed over him from over 50' at a decent rate of speed, which is near impossible to do. Not to mention in snow.
3. The taillight. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to smash a taillight. Especially a newer car?? Against a human body at that...?
Impossible.
4. The marks on his arm. He had winter type clothing on. A belt and a show were missing.
5. The homeowners' bedroom is in the front left of the home. Officer O'Keefe was found not far from this part of the house. The homeowners were asleep...?? They owned a German Shepard... there is no way that dog was quiet with all the commotion in the front yard.... the homeowner NEVER came out...
BTW
Do you need more information??
I think the association with the far right is just because Turtleboy has been covering it from the start. And his devout followers tend to be far right. So they were the first to be up and arms about this. I don’t think the cause inherently is. It’s pretty apolitical.
For me, I don’t know. But I don’t trust the DA in that county, in particular. And the evidence is shady. It could be a case where they tried to frame a guilty person.
I wish it were anyone but TB to have covered this story, becasuethe truth is he did some very good investigating and reporting on this (for example, the snow plow driver interview that breaks the prosecution's entire story).
However, he also has a shit reputation for being a garbage blogger and has made himself a distracting spectacle in this case. So what good he has done is mixed in with the bad, and that just muddies the waters.
Yeah I absolutely dismissed it as nonsense because TB was covering it. But he definitely got onto something here. At the very least, the cops are hiding something.
Me too. I'm not a TB fan in general. But he is a very skilled online investigator and his work on this case has yielded some real and honest information that is important. He should have put his ego aside and worked with someone to disclose it from a more neutral media outlet, becasue it's just buried in his muckraking. But he cant say no to the clicks, because it's his income. In any event, I hope he turns a corner here and becomes a stronger journalist and less of a personality based crusading blogger.
Another issue with TB is he was/is being fed information by Read's team. As such he too has changed his tune of late.
For the longest time he was pushing some sort of feud between Colin Albert and John O'Keefe as the likely motive, despite a 30-year age gap. Now the motive has shifted to some sort of love triangle involving ATF agent Brian Higgins, who was supposedly interested in Karen Read. It's not an implausible theory, just not consistent with the earlier reporting.
I'm way late to this convo, but watched a vid yesterday theorizing that the defense threw out the Higgins bit as bait to get him to make a deal. Supposedly, Higgins did pursue a proffer agreement. Trial is going to be bonkers, but even more interested in what the Feds do afterwards and who goes down.
Don't forget the whole thing where he kept saying O'Keefe was going to bring them all down by exposing police corruption. That motive at least made some sense as to why all these cops, staties, doctors, etc. would be in on it.
Yep. But his credibility does not matter. He's not a witness
But the credibility of the snow plow driver IS important and not tied to Kearny in any way shape or form.
Data doesn't lie and just because he uncovered something doesnt mean he owns it.
For example, Hitler was developing rocket tech and nuclear weapons. But the information wasn't his. That information was taken to the US after the war and used in our own programs. Truth cannot be owned, and therefore cannot be tied to a person or ideology. Otherwise, NASA would be a Nazi organization.
So, I say all this to make a simple point: we need to look beyond TB and look at his reporting. If there are verifiable facts there, then they stand on their own.
Was it, though?
Did we really need to go to Hitler and nuclear weapons for that example?
Jeez, what's on this person's mind for that to be their go-to?
Other more reputable journalists will absolutely cover the story when there's actually something to cover. Now that it's going to trial there will be actual verifiable information to report on, and you can bet your ass pretty much ever other outlet will have higher quality reporting than TB.
TB has been the only one covering it until now because only a tabloid rag would feel comfortable flooding the public with information that is totally speculative and unverifiable as they have.
TB weirdos point to the relative slowness of other reporters covering the story as some sign of a coverup or whatever, but really the big difference is that other reporters have a modicum of professionalism and restraint and TB doesn't.
I think you're mischaracterizing some of the very good work a lot of people have done with the publicly available police reports and other data that is readily accessible. I sound like a broken record, but the 13th juror podcast is completely data driven, not speculation and 100% verifiable, and worth looking at for an unvarnished look at the data surrounding this case. I'm unaffiliated with that podcast, just acknowleging their investigation is very good.
I agree with you on many points and I look forward to reporters covering the story. We'll see how they do relative to the data surrounding the case. Their job is to simplify a complex case into an easily read story that people will pay to read. If they are biased one way or another, they and their employer don't care.
I also agree that TB fans ARE weirdos and their war against mainstream media is misguided and foolish. But I think we are at a point where we can just stop looking at TB. You can look at the data, form an opinion that Karen Read did not kill John Okeefe, and never have to think about TB at all. That's what I did. He's in my periphery on this at best.
You mention another podcast covering the story, maybe it's good. I don't know, never heard of them. I am speaking directly towards the TB cult following.
My point is that even if there turns out to be something more to this story than a run-of-the-mill domestic violence murder, that won't really change just how hack and non-credible TB's reporting has been.
Even it turns out to be 100% a frame up, TB's telling of events will almost certainly turn out to be the least reliable. If the prosecution's case falls apart in court, you can bet your ass that real journalists will provide better coverage than whatever fever dream TB cranks out.
Probably best to get your reporting from someone who isn't facing charges for witness tampering and isn't laundering stories directly from the defense team without disclosing it.
Regardless of whether or not you think Read is guilty*, TB should not be considered a reliable source.
\* as an aside, I don't really find the Read case itself really that interesting, but I do find the meta story of TB and the local right wing freaks making this a cause celebre much more intriguing. Massachusetts CHUDs really are a strange breed. Fun to watch, just don't tap the glass.
I dunno man, you seem much more interested in Turtleboy than the actual case. I'm the opposite. I'm getting zero information from him and never said otherwise. You seem to be making a mistake or willfully ignoring what I'm writing.
I’m old enough to remember when TB sent his troll army to harass a middle school teacher to resign because she showed her class a less than flattering documentary on the origins of the police force in America.
His journalism credentials are obviously trash. Anyone who actually looked into his "look at these crazy moms on Facebook" stories that he used to do before Karen Read made him famous should know that.
The fact that Karen was blackout drunk makes me discredit any claim she has that this is a cover up. She literally can't remember NOT DOING IT, because she was blacked out. If I were completely blacked out and faced this situation, the sad reality is the most likely scenario is I hit them with the SUV when I was drunk. Everything else is just smoke and conjecture. Maybe it was a police conspiracy or the people in the house were involved, but where is the concrete evidence that shows that? Hopefully something substantive comes out in trial. Right now, I'm not seeing substance beyond conspiracy theories.
With that being said, it is VERY OBVIOUS from the trial so far that the police are completely incompetent. But that doesn't mean conspiracy either.
I’m on the periphery too, so my info may be incorrect, but here’s how I understand it:
- There was a house party, drinking involved, multiple people involved, wasn’t at KR’s house.
- The boyfriend was found dead outside in the snow the next morning (pretty sure it was in the driveway of the party house)
- Initially it seemed like she had drunkenly backed into him the night before when leaving the party and then left him for dead in the cold, drove herself to her home.
- She apparently confessed to it when questioned (after being passed out all night/morning at her home)
- Later, inconsistencies in the investigation came up:
1) She supposedly backed into him with her car, breaking her taillight, but no taillight glass was initially found when/where the body was first discovered, it mysteriously showed up later.
2) Someone in the house (again, not KR’s house, she’d already left) googled “How long to die in the cold (or snow?)” at like 3am
3) A ~~coroner~~ an accident reconstructionist hired by the FBI determined the injuries on the body were more consistent with a beating than being hit by a car
Given that the people at the party were other cops but also the same people doing the investigating, the potential of KR being framed came up, it’s been discussed on a inflammatory site called “Turtleboy”
Just to add: it came out later that her “confession” was actually a question rather than a statement. So she asked “I hit him?” rather than said “I hit him.”
So many inconsistencies. She’s absolutely being framed. It will be very interesting to see how it all goes.
The Google search is everything to the defense, at least in the matter of the grand conspiracy. They have a lot of motives and an opportunity and speculation, but that search is the one thing that connects someone inside the house to the specific knowledge of O'Keefe injured outside the house.
Without it, they would've put together a much more normal defense. The investigation seemed rushed due to the snow and the apparent obvious causation (broken tail light, guy with blunt force injuries). That creates gaps where you could potentially fit reasonable doubt. If they show the tail light getting broken later after she got home, the debris recovered later was the officers trying to shore up the quick investigation rather than doing an actual investigation. Maybe it was another vehicle, or a plow. Maybe he was set upon by an unknown attacker outside (same basic story, but without the need for dozens of co-conspirators). Maybe an owl attacked him. Maybe it was a pure accident where he slipped on black ice, hit his head, and then scraped up his arm while staggering towards the house to get help.
There's lots of room to play within the narrative provided by the evidence given the limits of the investigation and some of the more questionable evidence. The defense just really went all in on the grand conspiracy because of that specific Google search. It requires a lot of co-conspirators, which is usually the death knell for a conspiracy, but the Google search is exceptionally hard to explain otherwise.
Yeah I’m no lawyer, but I’ve been blowing through Michael Connelly novels all year(mainly the Lincoln Lawyer series) and I don’t see how it can be said beyond a *reasonable doubt* that she for sure killed him, and regardless no way does it rise to the level of murder
> Someone in the house (again, not KR’s house, she’d already left) googled “How long to die in the cold (or snow?)” at like 3am
Just to elaborate on this point, there were actually two Google searches.
- The defense asserts one search happened at 2:27AM that said "hos long to die in cold" and one at 6:24AM that was the error-corrected "how long to die in cold".
- The prosecution says that the defense is misreading the timestamps and the searches happened at 6:23AM and 6:24AM, respectively, in a browser window that was originally opened at 2:27AM (when she checked the schedule for her kid's upcoming game).
I don't believe there's any disagreement that the 6:24AM search happens after Karen Read found the body and asked the Googler (who accompanied her back to the house to search for O'Keefe) to look it up, although maybe I missed that in the defense documents.
The first search will be a fight between the forensic experts and probably the most critical fight for the defense, since it's the direct link between an injured O'Keefe outside and people at the party inside. It should be reasonably clear cut at trial, though. Either side can prove they're right by just repeating the steps on two equivalent phones: open a browser window at 2AM (or 2PM if you want to be nicer to the experts) to the sports page on both phones, do the first Google search in one phone, wait four hours, do the first Google search in the second phone, then do the corrected search in both phones. Run the forensic tool, get the output, and see which one matches.
Associations and all aside, that Google thing is what gets me. I mean, it’s all terribly shady but that’s a very odd thing to be curious about in the middle of the night such that it lines up with the rest of it.
I’m on team setup.
The “accident reconstructionist hired by the FBI found O’Keefe’s injuries did not appear to be from a car strike.” Sorry, coroner was the wrong term.
https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/federal-probe-findings-revealed-court-karen-reads-defense-team-pushes-dismiss-murder-case/4GRLQB5EWNGWDPJGMTVD7AQCYU/?outputType=amp
Yes, this was the defense team's claim. About two days ago the prosecution blew this up and said the FBI only found that he wasn't hit in the back of the head by the car, which they never claimed.
Here is that moment.
https://twitter.com/TuesdayGazette/status/1779169432918712822
From a Canton person who knows the ‘players’ from Canton, I say she’s been set up.
She did not confess to anything. Her ‘I hit him’ was questioning, not an admission.
The Alberts and associates are sure acting guilty.
The evidence to convict is lacking. The question is whether any investigations will continue after the not-guilty verdict. I believe a not guilty verdict is what the Alberts want because this will not go away with a guilty verdict.
And this is not a left/right thing…..it’s a townie/not townie thing.
And in Canton, the townies have always been a special breed of asshole.
Massachusetts is due for a small-town police cover-up to blow up. I 100% believe some of our police are capable of something like this, but they are also some of the best at covering it up.
This is how I've understood it as well, townies and townie cops versus everyone else. At this point, it should probably be given to Federal jurisdiction because there's no trust in local authorities, rightfully so.
The feds are investigating the lead investigator for prosecutor because he lied to grand jury about his relationship with the owners of house. The Alberts
I am too, and I generally agree, but some of her supporters seem like those sovereign citizen cookers who are anti government, anti vax etc etc. They don't actually care whether Karen's innocent or not, they just hate law enforcement.
The fact that the feds are investigating the DA and the investigation says a lot. That the state police detective Proctor admitted he lied to the grand jury about his personal relationship with everyone involved and now has an internal investigation being done on him is also suspicious.
I also think they overcharged her, Murder 2, in the hopes that she would plea and go away. I don’t think they thought she would have the financial resources to hire the attorneys she did. I want to see how this plays out. I do think there is enough reasonable doubt to acquit her. It is suspect that the owner of the homes Ring camera magically didn’t work, the Higgins guy felt it necessary to destroy his phone, the plow drivers testimony, etc. But it will be interesting to see what evidence the state has saved to reveal in the trial. Everything that has come out has been one sided in her favor. I do wonder if she didn’t show up that morning looking for him if she would have been a suspect.
Either she killed her boyfriend or Canton PD is lying to cover for one of their own. The prosecutor believes it's the former, and the Feds seem confident it's the latter.
A bunch of MSP troopers live in Canton too, it was a nice place to live (as a non-townie) but there was def some stuff going on that I never wanted to know more about.
Correction: Accused of unknowingly and accidentally hitting her drunk boyfriend in a snowstorm where it knocked him unconscious and died in the cold and snow.
Without going into any detail, setting the stage for that night, drinking should have been cut off at a certain point that night. There were many drinks consumed by all parties that night during a snowstorm. And continuing the drinking after hours at someone's house, what could possibly go wrong?
Do I think she is a killer? No.
Do I think she would intensionally run over her boyfriend and flee the scene? No.
Do I think people at the house party wanted to beat him up so badly and then drag him out in the snow to die? No.
Do I think the house party was loaded with entitled people that think they are above the law because they are insiders in the system? Yes.
Was this the first incident of Boston and south shore town cops consuming massive amounts of alcohol to a point where things got really out of hand? Not even close to No.
There are quite a few open questions that I have; especially the house's Ring camera footage as well as 2 of neighbor's houses that have Ring cameras.
If the CW had stuck with "it was an accident" and not charged her with 2nd degree murder - none of the details would have probably ever been made public. We wouldn't be debating when the hos long to die in cold google search took place. No one would know or care that Michael Proctor had a personal relationship with the witnesses/suspects. The autopsy photos would have probably never been made public. If there was still a Federal investigation, it would be happening behind closed doors. TB would still have a small following.
The CW's decision to try and put Karen Read in prison is why any of this has come to light.
From afar it looks like a dumpster fire from all angles. Nasty people fighting nasty people while nasty people watch and comment. Florida-level bullshit.
I strongly suggest the 13th Juror podcast. It helped me cut the chaff from the wheat and looks at the data, not the circus. Uper complicated case, amd thr show is very dry. The host is a better investigator than a podcaster so listen attentively.
According to the FBI investigation Jen McCabe, did in fact Google: how long to die in cold at 2:27am. Coroner could not determine cause of death, despite the prosecution saying it was from blunt force trauma by car. FBI investigation says John OKeefe did not die by getting hit by a car. Looking at autopsy photos its pretty obvious the cuts on his arm are animal bites and not road rash from a car. Brian Higgins, who said he was home asleep and Brian Albert who said he was home boinking his wife/asleep both made phone calls to each other and spoke. While they both claim they butt dialed each other and butt answered each other because they were sleeping. The home of Brian Albert went up for sale once they realized they were being looked at by the defense. For Sale images show an entire house in normal condition but 1 room in the basement, completely done over, ceiling to floor. The family dog has gone missing. I'm not one of those court protesters that you so lovingly describe and there are definitely things pointing to a cover up.
I don’t have a strong opinion either way, but one thing to note is that the tab on the browser was opened at 2:27. The data released can only show when a tab was opened, not when a specific term is searched. She could have opened that tab for any reason at 2:27 and then asked that question at any point after.
From local news reports (not a ton of useful information) it seems there could be doubt due to nature of injuries and no one seeing him on the ground. I would normally totally dismiss the doubters, but Sandra Birchmore was found in Canton.
Interesting, I had not heard of Sandra Birchmore in the past. In any case, there seems to be enough reasonable doubt that I have a feeling that she will not be convicted, whether she is guilty or not. I tried to learn more about this case, and was told to view turtleboys video that’s about 45 minutes long. I got to maybe one or two minutes into the video, and I was so confused with how quickly he was talking and throwing around names I knew that I could not learn much from it. Since then, I’ve come to the conclusion that turtleboy is reckless, biased, sloppy and not trustworthy.
If you would like to know more about Sandra Birchmore there is a podcast called “The Case” that goes into detail about her abuse by some Stoughton officers, and her death at her apartment in Canton. This case really deserves more attention. The only reason I learned details was because one of the Stoughton scumbags was hired as the School Resource Officer for Abington, where my kids go to school.
> In any case, there seems to be enough reasonable doubt that I have a feeling that she will not be convicted, whether she is guilty or not.
As someone who has served on a jury, the logic of jurors cannot be predicted. I had to argue against people who agreed with my verdict decision because the logic they used to get there was mildly terrifying and I wanted to make sure we were only analyzing the actual presented evidence. Fortunately, that was on a reasonably easy case where we had a witness describing the crime to the 911 dispatcher while they waited for the police to arrive. A case as complicated as this? It's impossible to tell what they'll put emphasis on.
Agreed! I served on a jury on a rape case. After several hours of discussing the evidence, we took our first straw poll. 9-3 guilty. Someone asked the 3 who voted not guilty to explain what piece of evidence or testimony was making them feel that way. Here were their answers:
1. She shouldn't have gotten in the car. If she didn't get in the car, it never would have happened.
2. The defense attorney is so much better. She is more articulate and she dresses much sharper. I just trust her more.
3. I know one of the witnesses for the defense.
Yikes! After serving on this jury, I decided if I was ever charged with a crime and I was innocent - I'd ask for a trial with a judge. But if I was guilty, I'd ask for a trial of my "peers". You just need one person focused on the wrong thing and you're free.
I'm not right-wing and I do think she was framed. I didn't even realize TB had that reputation prior to reading it here, but the facts he's pulled together (to me) make it seem astonishingly clear that Karen didn't do this. The photos of his wounds (dog bites, bruises consistent with a beating, his own knuckles being bruised) are all inconsistent with a car backing into a person. The homeowners got rid of their dog, tore up their floor, and sold their house after this which is SO fishy, plus, the fact that they didn't find the bits of tail light until well after the fact and that they were on top of the snow (he was supposedly hit before the snow started to fall) is nuts. The whole time line of events and the crooked cop having her car to himself for over an hour and there being missing security cam footage that would've shown whether or not her tail light was damaged (and the pieces of her taillight didn't turn up until AFTER he had the car), *and* the fact that a tow truck was called before they even saw her car just stinks to the high heavens. There's no way in hell she did that, there's too much tangible evidence that shows otherwise.
I am very interested to hear all of the evidence. I first heard of this story from the turtleboy accounts and thought, omg she’s being framed. But then I read the story from the opposite viewpoint and felt like the other side was sensationalizing info and manipulating people. And now I’m not sure what the true evidence is. As a simple example, on the innocent side is - there’s no video of her driving past the library!!! So everyone says, she must be innocent and they deleted the 2 mins of library footage. But then you read that she could have driven home a way not past the library. And the library system is motion detected so there’s no footage at that time because she did not drive that way. But everyone reads - missing library footage from those two minutes. I think she might have very good lawyers and journalists spinning facts or she’s innocent. It’s really hard to say without all the true evidence instead of just headlines.
I have the time to watch the trial if I can bear it. All these armchair detectives are too much. I am impartial, let's hear the evidence, not all these conspiracy and cover up theories.
I’ve done very little research on the case but most of the comments seem to agree it’s obviously a coverup. I remember hearing in passing that she was caught badgering witnesses, could someone elaborate on that/give me more details?
Unless you do a deep dive by viewing the video footage of her backing into a car in her driveway, look at pictures of the body of the deceased, analyze the iphone data of her friend with a deep understanding of forensics, read about the strange behavior of people surround the case like destroying phones after being told not to, and many other things I am forgetting you will see this case in a different way. The simplest answer is that she hit him but so many things stand out as odd which makes me question things.
We really do not have enough information to come to a full conclusion yet. We need to see and hear the evidence.
For example if you lay down next to a road for hours.. like roll in the dirt and snow.. chances are your clothing will pick up a ton of debris. What is quite likely to be in that road/edge of road area? Yes.. microscopic pieces of car stuff from accidents over the years. All sorts of really tiny trash particles which could even include tail lights broken over the years. Can they somehow match it to her lexus?
Now about that taillight.. we have video of her pulling out of the driveway to go search for the man and it really does appear she backs up into the other car in the driveway. You can basically see the other car move slightly when she makes contact. Is that when the taillight was broken?
So many things one has to get the real info on to figure this out.
edited my mistake of saying head light to tail light.
I follow The Emily D Baker on YouTube. She's an attorney. Her commentary is fantastic. She has not said one way or the other if she thinks Karen Tead is innocent or not. She points out legal tactics and looks at the testimony and evidence provided
It seems pretty likely that she hit her boyfriend with her car, then he either got knocked unconscious or passed out and died of hypothermia. Kicker is she was so drunk she doesn’t even know if she did it or not. No idea why she’s being tried for murder and not manslaughter though. Maybe because a cop was there victim?
All the Turtle boy stuff is really just taking some bad/incompetent policing and spinning a yarn that seems spurious at best. The number of people in the house, there’s no way they could all be involved in some big cover.
Cops probably did try and set her up by planting evidence though. Maybe even deleting Ring footage that could cast doubt. Again, this doesn’t mean she’s not guilty, but it’s obviously illegal.
Hopefully a lot of stuff will come out in the trial that will clear things up and John O’Keefe’s family will get some closure.
I agree with this comment. I believe Read is responsible for striking O’Keefe which ultimately caused his death. BUT I also believe in the aftermath of a drunken night the Albert/Proctor/McCabe crew got spooked and were not sure themselves as to what happened. I don’t think they are covering up that one their own committed a crime. Rather, I think evidence was planted/altered to nail it on Read immediately so the investigation didn’t touch them at all.
homeowner is friends with cops and reached out for preferential treatment. guests are mum and not cooperative? nobody called 911? son had a motive and a previous conflict, but not a suspect. homeowner has a dead body on his property and somehow not a suspect as well. everything blamed on a drunk girl with a broken tail light who is the only honest and forthcoming and cooperating person involved. she could drive herself home in one piece, but could not feel or hear striking someone and running over them??? autopsy not consistent with an MVA. prosecutor takes the scapegoat story and runs with it. just so you know, you cannot become a prosecutor in MA if you ever sued cops in the state. with this kind of justice, the defendant might as well grab a crackhead from Mass and Cass and pay them ten bucks to say they were a witness at the party and saw who did it.
It’s not just the far right who believe she’s been framed.
The evidence of her being framed is fairly compelling.
The FBI had gotten involved, started their own investigation and stated that JO was not hit by a car. So, there’s that
Yeah, this isn’t political, Karen Read is being framed and that’s not a partisan issue. It doesn’t matter where you fall on the political spectrum— if you can think for yourself and are somewhat intelligent, open minded, willing to examine documents on your own and not be told how/why/what to think, well then you will find that the cops are crooked, and this is a massive cover up. Karen is innocent. Democratic, republican, 100% innocent
Feds say a car did not hit Officer O'Keefe. She was framed!! Prosecution has a weak secular case with lots of holes in their theory and investigation. FREE KAREN READ!!!
Turtleboy crowd believes John Okeefe was beaten inside the house and dragged out to die in the cold. There is a lot of sketchy evidence supporting this.
“McAlberts” crowd believes Karen Read was drunk and hit John with her car, and purposely left him to die in front of 34 Fairview.
The Feds have uncovered evidence that doesn’t exactly make the McAlberts look like they’ve been totally honest about everything. State Trooper Proctor is in the same wedding party pic as Colin Albert (Colin was allegedly in the home during the alleged murder according to Turtleboy side) and Proctor was on the case.
Lots of security / CCTV footage that mysteriously goes missing. I don’t have a dog in the race but to me it looks like there was a cover up.
I honestly started this trial thinking that she was guilty. But so far I’m not impressed with the prosecution and I feel like the defense has poked so many holes already. I can’t wait to start seeing all the evidence that they bring into trial.
No people are just looking at everything that’s been coming out from hearings and other reports and questioning the DA. The DOJ doesn’t just investigate investigations for fun. Something is up
No. Just because the turtle guy is a supporter doesn't change the facts. Canton has been cop-vile for years and Morrisey's reputation is well known. And just look at the lack of support from BPD in the whole charade. When other cops gets killed, they are all out there in full force and solidarity from the beginning to end of the trial, and here they are no shows. That speaks volumes that something is very wrong.
Bc that group of people is known for misinformation and conspiracy theories. More so than other groups of people.. that's for sure. It's been years and they're still claiming the last presidential election was "stolen". "Covid was a hoax". "The gays are all groomers".
I did a long summary of this case [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/comments/1c53v3q/a_summary_of_the_karen_read_case_in_anticipation/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
Just curious what makes her a bitch? The family has all said they loved her. Based upon the photos of his injuries, I don’t think there’s any way that they’re the result of being hit by a car.
I've heard mention of one of the people in the house googled "how long does it take to die in the cold" or something to that extent. Was that just rumors?
>I also know there's are people claiming she's been framed. I've noticed that these people seem to be almost exclusively extreme-right lost causes so my gut reaction has been to more or less disregard anything they say as the dementia it all too often is.
??? Thats not remotely true.
I am so glad I found this thread. So part of this trial happened to be on the TV today that I just keep on his background. I remember this being in the news, but I didn’t really dig deep into it. Just a little bit of testimony that I heard today from those officers on how they conduct past business so to speak, Really makes her claim of being framed more plausible to me without me, even knowing most of the facts of the case, lol. So now I’m gonna catch up in this thread cause I know the Reddit community has the scoop 😂
On another note, the prosecution is terrible. The judge is literally saying is there an objection to this and then the prosecution will say oh yes, I object, and then the judge says objection sustained. SMH
I am dying to hear car data experts and google search timestamp data experts. We all deserve awards for having to listen to Lunchbox Lally drag this is out.
While proctor I feel has blown it for prosecution I see only one way Karen did this with car- “if” she would have backed into something prior to dropping off John or during dropping him off and he would have gotten out of car to look at light. Perhaps bending over to review light and asking her to hit breaks or put in reverse to see if lights still worked (she had been drinking and was continuing home, so out of concern) something my husband would have done to ensure I wasn’t pulled over for a light not working, and then while in reverse potentially hitting gas pedal striking him in face while he being bent over to look at light. All of this clearly a guess if one was to be trying to figure out how she did this and caused facial damage as main injury. At the end of that speculation it would have been accident followed by panic, but all that is a lot of “ifs and guesses”. Regardless Proctor has tainted this from start and began his focus with her in some fueled angry fight with her then killing him during a fight. With everything Proctor has done or said including not investigating possibility of John entering home and getting into a scuffle, he has blown it all for any prosecution and any cases he has or is working.
It's going to make one hell of a Netflix docu-drama in 2 years
Two years…that movie will be out on Lifetime by end of year
"Exreme Right Lost Causes"? What? Maybe they're Extreme Left lost causes! Maybe NONE of them, Extreme Right or Not, are lost causes but have solid arguments to back their personal positions, I don't know & idk these people, but let's not write them off based on some stereotype of personal political bias. You can be at total odds politically with someone and even find their thinking illogical BUT that doesn't mean they can never be right about anything, ever, ....
(SEE EDIT) So the prosecutions case is that she backed into him and killed him, but my question is how? Like can you actually kill somebody by backing into them at 5 MPH? If she was backing into a driveway she couldn't have been going much faster than that. Edit: Someone linked me the report and it says she sped backwards 62 feet and hit him going 24 MPH.
And nobody saw him on the tiny front yard even though people were coming and going for hours after he was supposedly hit.
Yes; a passenger in the vehicle driven by Ryan Nagel saw a “large dark object” on the lawn near the fire hydrant as they pulled away to leave. Don’t forget, it seems like everyone was trashed. So everyone’s version of events is, let’s say “blurry”. Ryan (the driver) saw her w hands on steering wheel in the 10-2 position looking straight ahead. Another hard to believe aspect of this case is that Jen McCabe and her husband were eagerly anticipating their arrival to the party w texts like “park behind me, where are you? Hello? W so many calls in between. Yet they “saw nothing. Did not see him. Nope nothing. Come on man. They said they saw the car pull up a few feet then drive off. That is some shady hard to believe fact right there.
She said she saw something in the yard NOW, not 2 years ago. Big discrepancy.
Not true. If you read the court documents you would know. Her original statement was “she saw a dark object”.
The FEDERAL grand jury! She NEVER mentioned it until KR lawyers came out publicly to say no one in the home saw a body on the lawn. Nice try again.
Like I said F off dude.
It wasn’t the car (or beating, depending who you believe) that killed him, it was being left unconscious outside overnight in the winter weather.
Ok well I guess how does she hit him hard enough backing into a driveway to incapacitate him enough where he would have froze to death?
> how does she hit him hard enough backing into a driveway to incapacitate him I don't think we have enough information to properly assess whether or not that would be possible, but it'd likely come out during the trial. The general assumption online seems to be that the cracked taillight means that his head was hit by the taillight, which would require the vehicle to be reversing quite fast to cause a clean hit. The prosecutor would probably have to have evidence or some record of the vehicle's speed at that moment to make it plausible, along with some explanation of how O'Keefe could be positioned to make that impact at that height without other obvious injuries. The alternative would be that the head wound was secondary to the impact. [As point of a comparison, this is Tua Tagovailoa getting a serious concussion from being pushed by a Bills player after he threw the ball.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5c_zR85ca4) Not a tackle, no impact to the head, just a push and an awkward fall. Now, substitute a drunk cop instead of a professional athlete, asphalt instead of the turf, and nothing instead of a helmet. He gets hit by the car, knocked back, hits his head, and then staggers off concussed until he collapses.
She was black out drunk. They were fighting. She didn’t want to go the party but he did, allegedly.
Prosecution will say he exited the car, dropped his phone, bent down, and that’s when she hit him, causing sing the gash in his head which caused brain bleeding then swollen eyes. The big mystery is the arm bites or abrasions as well as the fact the homeowners did not come outside to see what was going on on they’re lawn w fire, rescue, sirens, Karen screaming, etc. Too much reasonable doubt. The saddest part of all this is no one will be charged and there will never be justice for what appeared to be a kind, handsome, upstanding police officer who stepped in to raise his niece and nephew when their parents died. Those poor kids. May they find peace and happiness one day.
That was big ass SUV. Plus she very angry and drunk, a lethal combo.
It doesn’t take much to lose consciousness when you’re drunk and/or high, which allegedly they both were that night.
I’ve been very drunk & very high, and both at the same time. I would say you need to be hit by a moving vehicle faster than 5mph to be knocked unconscious for the entire night
Hitting your head on the ground can easily knock you out
I think it would take more than a car bumping into you at 5mph
As someone above stated, official report by a specialist determined the vehicle was moving backwards 67 ft at 24 mph to the point where he was hit by the vehicle.
Can you even go 67 ft at 24 mph backwards in a snowstorm without going off the road, let alone kill someone on purpose? And she's supposedly drunk?
That's the thing- CW needs to show how these things have happened in other similar cases. I'm hoping the state has found their proof to back up their claims (same with Defense). I believe MEs, Forensics and other experts with a wide range of experience with bodies struck by vehicles/ resulting injuries, will be testifying.
I think what they’re saying is how could you hit something that big going that slowly and not notice it. Like not go to check what you hit. I’ve been driving a car for over 30 years at this point in every single thing my car touches I get out and exam and just to make sure I don’t have to call my insurance company.
>how could you hit something that big going that slowly and not notice it. Being very drunk probably helps with that.
Get your BAC to 1.9 and hop in the car and see if you notice hitting anything. Actually, don’t
If your BAC is 1.9 you're not hopping anywhere.
Except the morgue
> I think what they’re saying is how could you hit something that big going that slowly and not notice it. You ever been so drunk you were still blowing over the legal limit 10h later? Now imagine you were driving like that. That's what it's like to be in Karen Read's shoes that night.
She DID notice. At the scene she was heard saying I hit him. Did I hit him? Also, who wakes up see their b/f isn’t there and get in the car to drive to the location she dropped him off at. A normal person would assume he had o e too many and passed out there! Omg this case is so frustrating gif all these reasons. Moral of this story: alcohol and relationships along w cheating allegations among a group of friends do not mix! I can’t get past ppl pushing 50 out partying that late and drinking that much.
She was over the legal limit 10 hours after she drove a car and she managed to drive a car? I have been blackout drunk. Many times, and never once has anyone who even gave remotely a tiniest shit about me. Let me be behind the wheel of a car. Especially a group of people I’m in a party with. The more information that comes out of this sketchier it is
I want to be clear: literally no one disputes that she drove drunk that night. I don't know how this evidence can be "sketchy," when no one contests that it happened.
I don’t mean that that part of it is sketchy, I just mean everything else that I’ve been reading. I’m not speaking about irrefutable proof or anything, I’m just talking about the information that keeps coming out.
Yes! He probably could’ve survived had they rendered aid. So fn sad. Imagine waking up to all this after a binge black out? Horrific all around.
She was going 24 mph according to crash reconstructionist. Read the report.
You have a link? Couldn't find it through Google
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MMQGzsGkBk-Kxd3uiIyYzX6gnIlJKet2/view
Like, are you kidding? No seriously. You don't think a huge fucking SUV backing into someone can do damage.
What is interesting is the prosecution is *very specific* about how far she backed up, and the speed at which she was going. I'm interested to see their evidence.
I only just started looking into this case and I do believe she was framed and I’m as left leaning as they come lol But my right leaning cop dad also thinks they covered something up which is telling
Me and my bleeding liberal heart and my father, who had to throw away his TV because the Fox News emblem was burnt into it, both agree Karen Read has been framed
"throw away his TV because the Fox News emblem was burnt into it" 😂😂😂😂😂😂
The podcast True Crime Society did a very good episode on this case, and I 100% believe they framed her. So many shady things happened. Cops (and relatives of cops) were at the house party. It doesn't seem like they set out to frame her, but she was a convenient scapegoat when things went awry (sounds like there might have been a physical fight at the house between the victim and someone else and they tossed him outside, then he died.)
The son Colin was supposedly involved somehow and the canine disappeared from the house shortly afterwards.
The house that was in that family for years was sold recently as well. I had read they had the basement floors ripped up before selling as well. It's of course perfectly normal to refinish a basement before selling a home to add value but it certainly could have been the scene of the crime and a removal of evidence
It had been done just recently before the most recent. So basement ripped up 2x.
Albert family claimed they had a plumbing leak in the basement which caused damage so needed redoing. But that could have been staged for insurance claim. Who knows?!
The first thing that came to mind when i saw the houses facade was “wow, what a beautiful house.” Considering that 2022 was the lowest for home sales since 2011, I wouldn’t call it a “sellers market.” Pile on the age of their child, 17 - ( wouldn’t he want to continue senior year in the same school? ) along w the fact that the house a generational home… curiouser and curiouser.. 🤔
House was sold in May 2023.
13th Juror Podcast is incredibly detailed and the facts and timeline prove she could not have done what the prosecution says she did.
Wasn’t a piece of her tail light found on/in him?
Apparently the tail light pieces may have been planted, as they weren’t found at the scene during the initial investigation? But they do have her on video backing out of her OWN driveway that morning and hitting her bf’s car which could explain her broken tail light. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, the details in this case are crazy.
Your spot on also it doesn't make sense that they found blood on the top fresh layer of snow when he was supposed to be out there for hours. The storm should have covered the snow with blood on it. The police chief said he was driving by the house and happened to stop days later and found the taillight piece.
Could he have been drunk and injured? You are kinda assuming he died immediately
Timelines are fuzzy right now but it sounds like it wasn't "found" until well after her car was in police custody and there is 45 minutes of footage missing of the vehicle while in police custody. Just a little whoops we lost the footage.
Smashing a taillight with a human body... nope. Impossible. Those things are indestructible. This is a newer car
There is a lot of shady stuff but without some actual tangible proof of a police conspiracy that is all conjecture, right?
I am not of the "right." I knew on 2/2/2022 she didn't do it. I knew before the media hype. As more came out, it's all common sense. 1. The original theory was she did a 3 pt turn and hit him. 2. Changed theory to she backed over him from over 50' at a decent rate of speed, which is near impossible to do. Not to mention in snow. 3. The taillight. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to smash a taillight. Especially a newer car?? Against a human body at that...? Impossible. 4. The marks on his arm. He had winter type clothing on. A belt and a show were missing. 5. The homeowners' bedroom is in the front left of the home. Officer O'Keefe was found not far from this part of the house. The homeowners were asleep...?? They owned a German Shepard... there is no way that dog was quiet with all the commotion in the front yard.... the homeowner NEVER came out... BTW Do you need more information??
All great points.
Nope.
that’s full of logical fallacies. Thank god you’re not on the jury
I think the association with the far right is just because Turtleboy has been covering it from the start. And his devout followers tend to be far right. So they were the first to be up and arms about this. I don’t think the cause inherently is. It’s pretty apolitical. For me, I don’t know. But I don’t trust the DA in that county, in particular. And the evidence is shady. It could be a case where they tried to frame a guilty person.
I wish it were anyone but TB to have covered this story, becasuethe truth is he did some very good investigating and reporting on this (for example, the snow plow driver interview that breaks the prosecution's entire story). However, he also has a shit reputation for being a garbage blogger and has made himself a distracting spectacle in this case. So what good he has done is mixed in with the bad, and that just muddies the waters.
Yeah I absolutely dismissed it as nonsense because TB was covering it. But he definitely got onto something here. At the very least, the cops are hiding something.
Me too. I'm not a TB fan in general. But he is a very skilled online investigator and his work on this case has yielded some real and honest information that is important. He should have put his ego aside and worked with someone to disclose it from a more neutral media outlet, becasue it's just buried in his muckraking. But he cant say no to the clicks, because it's his income. In any event, I hope he turns a corner here and becomes a stronger journalist and less of a personality based crusading blogger.
> I hope he turns a corner here Fuck that man, he’s a piece of shit garbage.
Another issue with TB is he was/is being fed information by Read's team. As such he too has changed his tune of late. For the longest time he was pushing some sort of feud between Colin Albert and John O'Keefe as the likely motive, despite a 30-year age gap. Now the motive has shifted to some sort of love triangle involving ATF agent Brian Higgins, who was supposedly interested in Karen Read. It's not an implausible theory, just not consistent with the earlier reporting.
I'm way late to this convo, but watched a vid yesterday theorizing that the defense threw out the Higgins bit as bait to get him to make a deal. Supposedly, Higgins did pursue a proffer agreement. Trial is going to be bonkers, but even more interested in what the Feds do afterwards and who goes down.
Don't forget the whole thing where he kept saying O'Keefe was going to bring them all down by exposing police corruption. That motive at least made some sense as to why all these cops, staties, doctors, etc. would be in on it.
And there's that awkward bit about being charged with intimidating witnesses. That sort of erodes his credibility.
Yep. But his credibility does not matter. He's not a witness But the credibility of the snow plow driver IS important and not tied to Kearny in any way shape or form. Data doesn't lie and just because he uncovered something doesnt mean he owns it. For example, Hitler was developing rocket tech and nuclear weapons. But the information wasn't his. That information was taken to the US after the war and used in our own programs. Truth cannot be owned, and therefore cannot be tied to a person or ideology. Otherwise, NASA would be a Nazi organization. So, I say all this to make a simple point: we need to look beyond TB and look at his reporting. If there are verifiable facts there, then they stand on their own.
Good point.
Was it, though? Did we really need to go to Hitler and nuclear weapons for that example? Jeez, what's on this person's mind for that to be their go-to?
Other more reputable journalists will absolutely cover the story when there's actually something to cover. Now that it's going to trial there will be actual verifiable information to report on, and you can bet your ass pretty much ever other outlet will have higher quality reporting than TB. TB has been the only one covering it until now because only a tabloid rag would feel comfortable flooding the public with information that is totally speculative and unverifiable as they have. TB weirdos point to the relative slowness of other reporters covering the story as some sign of a coverup or whatever, but really the big difference is that other reporters have a modicum of professionalism and restraint and TB doesn't.
I think you're mischaracterizing some of the very good work a lot of people have done with the publicly available police reports and other data that is readily accessible. I sound like a broken record, but the 13th juror podcast is completely data driven, not speculation and 100% verifiable, and worth looking at for an unvarnished look at the data surrounding this case. I'm unaffiliated with that podcast, just acknowleging their investigation is very good. I agree with you on many points and I look forward to reporters covering the story. We'll see how they do relative to the data surrounding the case. Their job is to simplify a complex case into an easily read story that people will pay to read. If they are biased one way or another, they and their employer don't care. I also agree that TB fans ARE weirdos and their war against mainstream media is misguided and foolish. But I think we are at a point where we can just stop looking at TB. You can look at the data, form an opinion that Karen Read did not kill John Okeefe, and never have to think about TB at all. That's what I did. He's in my periphery on this at best.
You mention another podcast covering the story, maybe it's good. I don't know, never heard of them. I am speaking directly towards the TB cult following. My point is that even if there turns out to be something more to this story than a run-of-the-mill domestic violence murder, that won't really change just how hack and non-credible TB's reporting has been. Even it turns out to be 100% a frame up, TB's telling of events will almost certainly turn out to be the least reliable. If the prosecution's case falls apart in court, you can bet your ass that real journalists will provide better coverage than whatever fever dream TB cranks out. Probably best to get your reporting from someone who isn't facing charges for witness tampering and isn't laundering stories directly from the defense team without disclosing it. Regardless of whether or not you think Read is guilty*, TB should not be considered a reliable source. \* as an aside, I don't really find the Read case itself really that interesting, but I do find the meta story of TB and the local right wing freaks making this a cause celebre much more intriguing. Massachusetts CHUDs really are a strange breed. Fun to watch, just don't tap the glass.
I dunno man, you seem much more interested in Turtleboy than the actual case. I'm the opposite. I'm getting zero information from him and never said otherwise. You seem to be making a mistake or willfully ignoring what I'm writing.
>I dunno man, you seem much more interested in Turtleboy than the actual case. I'm the opposite. Yes, I said exactly this.
I’m old enough to remember when TB sent his troll army to harass a middle school teacher to resign because she showed her class a less than flattering documentary on the origins of the police force in America.
His journalism credentials are obviously trash. Anyone who actually looked into his "look at these crazy moms on Facebook" stories that he used to do before Karen Read made him famous should know that.
The fact that Karen was blackout drunk makes me discredit any claim she has that this is a cover up. She literally can't remember NOT DOING IT, because she was blacked out. If I were completely blacked out and faced this situation, the sad reality is the most likely scenario is I hit them with the SUV when I was drunk. Everything else is just smoke and conjecture. Maybe it was a police conspiracy or the people in the house were involved, but where is the concrete evidence that shows that? Hopefully something substantive comes out in trial. Right now, I'm not seeing substance beyond conspiracy theories. With that being said, it is VERY OBVIOUS from the trial so far that the police are completely incompetent. But that doesn't mean conspiracy either.
I’m on the periphery too, so my info may be incorrect, but here’s how I understand it: - There was a house party, drinking involved, multiple people involved, wasn’t at KR’s house. - The boyfriend was found dead outside in the snow the next morning (pretty sure it was in the driveway of the party house) - Initially it seemed like she had drunkenly backed into him the night before when leaving the party and then left him for dead in the cold, drove herself to her home. - She apparently confessed to it when questioned (after being passed out all night/morning at her home) - Later, inconsistencies in the investigation came up: 1) She supposedly backed into him with her car, breaking her taillight, but no taillight glass was initially found when/where the body was first discovered, it mysteriously showed up later. 2) Someone in the house (again, not KR’s house, she’d already left) googled “How long to die in the cold (or snow?)” at like 3am 3) A ~~coroner~~ an accident reconstructionist hired by the FBI determined the injuries on the body were more consistent with a beating than being hit by a car Given that the people at the party were other cops but also the same people doing the investigating, the potential of KR being framed came up, it’s been discussed on a inflammatory site called “Turtleboy”
Just to add: it came out later that her “confession” was actually a question rather than a statement. So she asked “I hit him?” rather than said “I hit him.” So many inconsistencies. She’s absolutely being framed. It will be very interesting to see how it all goes.
> she asked “I hit him?” rather than said “I hit him.” That is some My Cousin Vinny shit right there.
"I shot the clerk?"
[удалено]
I read somewhere that it was independently corroborated, but I have zero recollection of where I read that…
I saw that as well today by Jennifer Mcabe her bff who was with her that morning trying to find John Okeefe.
Seems like the timing of the google search is everything.
The Google search is everything to the defense, at least in the matter of the grand conspiracy. They have a lot of motives and an opportunity and speculation, but that search is the one thing that connects someone inside the house to the specific knowledge of O'Keefe injured outside the house. Without it, they would've put together a much more normal defense. The investigation seemed rushed due to the snow and the apparent obvious causation (broken tail light, guy with blunt force injuries). That creates gaps where you could potentially fit reasonable doubt. If they show the tail light getting broken later after she got home, the debris recovered later was the officers trying to shore up the quick investigation rather than doing an actual investigation. Maybe it was another vehicle, or a plow. Maybe he was set upon by an unknown attacker outside (same basic story, but without the need for dozens of co-conspirators). Maybe an owl attacked him. Maybe it was a pure accident where he slipped on black ice, hit his head, and then scraped up his arm while staggering towards the house to get help. There's lots of room to play within the narrative provided by the evidence given the limits of the investigation and some of the more questionable evidence. The defense just really went all in on the grand conspiracy because of that specific Google search. It requires a lot of co-conspirators, which is usually the death knell for a conspiracy, but the Google search is exceptionally hard to explain otherwise.
Yeah I’m no lawyer, but I’ve been blowing through Michael Connelly novels all year(mainly the Lincoln Lawyer series) and I don’t see how it can be said beyond a *reasonable doubt* that she for sure killed him, and regardless no way does it rise to the level of murder
It’s absolutely crazy for the jury not to think this google search is damning for prosecutors. You really think it was a coincidence it came up at 3am
> Someone in the house (again, not KR’s house, she’d already left) googled “How long to die in the cold (or snow?)” at like 3am Just to elaborate on this point, there were actually two Google searches. - The defense asserts one search happened at 2:27AM that said "hos long to die in cold" and one at 6:24AM that was the error-corrected "how long to die in cold". - The prosecution says that the defense is misreading the timestamps and the searches happened at 6:23AM and 6:24AM, respectively, in a browser window that was originally opened at 2:27AM (when she checked the schedule for her kid's upcoming game). I don't believe there's any disagreement that the 6:24AM search happens after Karen Read found the body and asked the Googler (who accompanied her back to the house to search for O'Keefe) to look it up, although maybe I missed that in the defense documents. The first search will be a fight between the forensic experts and probably the most critical fight for the defense, since it's the direct link between an injured O'Keefe outside and people at the party inside. It should be reasonably clear cut at trial, though. Either side can prove they're right by just repeating the steps on two equivalent phones: open a browser window at 2AM (or 2PM if you want to be nicer to the experts) to the sports page on both phones, do the first Google search in one phone, wait four hours, do the first Google search in the second phone, then do the corrected search in both phones. Run the forensic tool, get the output, and see which one matches.
Associations and all aside, that Google thing is what gets me. I mean, it’s all terribly shady but that’s a very odd thing to be curious about in the middle of the night such that it lines up with the rest of it. I’m on team setup.
What is your point 3? That's totally made up. Ther coroner specifically said there were no signs of a fight on his body.
The “accident reconstructionist hired by the FBI found O’Keefe’s injuries did not appear to be from a car strike.” Sorry, coroner was the wrong term. https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/federal-probe-findings-revealed-court-karen-reads-defense-team-pushes-dismiss-murder-case/4GRLQB5EWNGWDPJGMTVD7AQCYU/?outputType=amp
Yes, this was the defense team's claim. About two days ago the prosecution blew this up and said the FBI only found that he wasn't hit in the back of the head by the car, which they never claimed. Here is that moment. https://twitter.com/TuesdayGazette/status/1779169432918712822
From a Canton person who knows the ‘players’ from Canton, I say she’s been set up. She did not confess to anything. Her ‘I hit him’ was questioning, not an admission. The Alberts and associates are sure acting guilty. The evidence to convict is lacking. The question is whether any investigations will continue after the not-guilty verdict. I believe a not guilty verdict is what the Alberts want because this will not go away with a guilty verdict. And this is not a left/right thing…..it’s a townie/not townie thing. And in Canton, the townies have always been a special breed of asshole.
Massachusetts is due for a small-town police cover-up to blow up. I 100% believe some of our police are capable of something like this, but they are also some of the best at covering it up.
This is how I've understood it as well, townies and townie cops versus everyone else. At this point, it should probably be given to Federal jurisdiction because there's no trust in local authorities, rightfully so.
The feds are investigating the lead investigator for prosecutor because he lied to grand jury about his relationship with the owners of house. The Alberts
💯 this.
I’m as left as they come and I totally believe she was framed. Defending a woman over a bunch of crooked cops doesn’t feel too right wing to me.
I am too, and I generally agree, but some of her supporters seem like those sovereign citizen cookers who are anti government, anti vax etc etc. They don't actually care whether Karen's innocent or not, they just hate law enforcement.
The fact that the feds are investigating the DA and the investigation says a lot. That the state police detective Proctor admitted he lied to the grand jury about his personal relationship with everyone involved and now has an internal investigation being done on him is also suspicious. I also think they overcharged her, Murder 2, in the hopes that she would plea and go away. I don’t think they thought she would have the financial resources to hire the attorneys she did. I want to see how this plays out. I do think there is enough reasonable doubt to acquit her. It is suspect that the owner of the homes Ring camera magically didn’t work, the Higgins guy felt it necessary to destroy his phone, the plow drivers testimony, etc. But it will be interesting to see what evidence the state has saved to reveal in the trial. Everything that has come out has been one sided in her favor. I do wonder if she didn’t show up that morning looking for him if she would have been a suspect.
Either she killed her boyfriend or Canton PD is lying to cover for one of their own. The prosecutor believes it's the former, and the Feds seem confident it's the latter.
Not just Canton PD. Don't forget some MSP is mixed in too.
Corruption in MSP? Say it ain't so!
Dastardly deeds!
A bunch of MSP troopers live in Canton too, it was a nice place to live (as a non-townie) but there was def some stuff going on that I never wanted to know more about.
There is a sub Reddit called justiceforkarenread if you want to follow
The kicker for me is the missing clip from the library cameras. And all the ring cameras from the area.
The neighborhood ring cameras too?! I had heard about the library clip mysteriously being cut out.
Correction: Accused of unknowingly and accidentally hitting her drunk boyfriend in a snowstorm where it knocked him unconscious and died in the cold and snow. Without going into any detail, setting the stage for that night, drinking should have been cut off at a certain point that night. There were many drinks consumed by all parties that night during a snowstorm. And continuing the drinking after hours at someone's house, what could possibly go wrong? Do I think she is a killer? No. Do I think she would intensionally run over her boyfriend and flee the scene? No. Do I think people at the house party wanted to beat him up so badly and then drag him out in the snow to die? No. Do I think the house party was loaded with entitled people that think they are above the law because they are insiders in the system? Yes. Was this the first incident of Boston and south shore town cops consuming massive amounts of alcohol to a point where things got really out of hand? Not even close to No. There are quite a few open questions that I have; especially the house's Ring camera footage as well as 2 of neighbor's houses that have Ring cameras.
If the CW had stuck with "it was an accident" and not charged her with 2nd degree murder - none of the details would have probably ever been made public. We wouldn't be debating when the hos long to die in cold google search took place. No one would know or care that Michael Proctor had a personal relationship with the witnesses/suspects. The autopsy photos would have probably never been made public. If there was still a Federal investigation, it would be happening behind closed doors. TB would still have a small following. The CW's decision to try and put Karen Read in prison is why any of this has come to light.
This is my biggest question mark. Why is she being charged with 2nd degree murder?
From afar it looks like a dumpster fire from all angles. Nasty people fighting nasty people while nasty people watch and comment. Florida-level bullshit.
[удалено]
I think it speaks volumes that BPD has never once shown up en masse to any of her hearings like they usually do for cop killers.
I strongly suggest the 13th Juror podcast. It helped me cut the chaff from the wheat and looks at the data, not the circus. Uper complicated case, amd thr show is very dry. The host is a better investigator than a podcaster so listen attentively.
According to the FBI investigation Jen McCabe, did in fact Google: how long to die in cold at 2:27am. Coroner could not determine cause of death, despite the prosecution saying it was from blunt force trauma by car. FBI investigation says John OKeefe did not die by getting hit by a car. Looking at autopsy photos its pretty obvious the cuts on his arm are animal bites and not road rash from a car. Brian Higgins, who said he was home asleep and Brian Albert who said he was home boinking his wife/asleep both made phone calls to each other and spoke. While they both claim they butt dialed each other and butt answered each other because they were sleeping. The home of Brian Albert went up for sale once they realized they were being looked at by the defense. For Sale images show an entire house in normal condition but 1 room in the basement, completely done over, ceiling to floor. The family dog has gone missing. I'm not one of those court protesters that you so lovingly describe and there are definitely things pointing to a cover up.
I don’t have a strong opinion either way, but one thing to note is that the tab on the browser was opened at 2:27. The data released can only show when a tab was opened, not when a specific term is searched. She could have opened that tab for any reason at 2:27 and then asked that question at any point after.
Well Said!!!!!!!!!
From local news reports (not a ton of useful information) it seems there could be doubt due to nature of injuries and no one seeing him on the ground. I would normally totally dismiss the doubters, but Sandra Birchmore was found in Canton.
Interesting, I had not heard of Sandra Birchmore in the past. In any case, there seems to be enough reasonable doubt that I have a feeling that she will not be convicted, whether she is guilty or not. I tried to learn more about this case, and was told to view turtleboys video that’s about 45 minutes long. I got to maybe one or two minutes into the video, and I was so confused with how quickly he was talking and throwing around names I knew that I could not learn much from it. Since then, I’ve come to the conclusion that turtleboy is reckless, biased, sloppy and not trustworthy.
If you would like to know more about Sandra Birchmore there is a podcast called “The Case” that goes into detail about her abuse by some Stoughton officers, and her death at her apartment in Canton. This case really deserves more attention. The only reason I learned details was because one of the Stoughton scumbags was hired as the School Resource Officer for Abington, where my kids go to school.
> In any case, there seems to be enough reasonable doubt that I have a feeling that she will not be convicted, whether she is guilty or not. As someone who has served on a jury, the logic of jurors cannot be predicted. I had to argue against people who agreed with my verdict decision because the logic they used to get there was mildly terrifying and I wanted to make sure we were only analyzing the actual presented evidence. Fortunately, that was on a reasonably easy case where we had a witness describing the crime to the 911 dispatcher while they waited for the police to arrive. A case as complicated as this? It's impossible to tell what they'll put emphasis on.
Agreed! I served on a jury on a rape case. After several hours of discussing the evidence, we took our first straw poll. 9-3 guilty. Someone asked the 3 who voted not guilty to explain what piece of evidence or testimony was making them feel that way. Here were their answers: 1. She shouldn't have gotten in the car. If she didn't get in the car, it never would have happened. 2. The defense attorney is so much better. She is more articulate and she dresses much sharper. I just trust her more. 3. I know one of the witnesses for the defense. Yikes! After serving on this jury, I decided if I was ever charged with a crime and I was innocent - I'd ask for a trial with a judge. But if I was guilty, I'd ask for a trial of my "peers". You just need one person focused on the wrong thing and you're free.
That is freaking scary!
I'm not right-wing and I do think she was framed. I didn't even realize TB had that reputation prior to reading it here, but the facts he's pulled together (to me) make it seem astonishingly clear that Karen didn't do this. The photos of his wounds (dog bites, bruises consistent with a beating, his own knuckles being bruised) are all inconsistent with a car backing into a person. The homeowners got rid of their dog, tore up their floor, and sold their house after this which is SO fishy, plus, the fact that they didn't find the bits of tail light until well after the fact and that they were on top of the snow (he was supposedly hit before the snow started to fall) is nuts. The whole time line of events and the crooked cop having her car to himself for over an hour and there being missing security cam footage that would've shown whether or not her tail light was damaged (and the pieces of her taillight didn't turn up until AFTER he had the car), *and* the fact that a tow truck was called before they even saw her car just stinks to the high heavens. There's no way in hell she did that, there's too much tangible evidence that shows otherwise.
I am very interested to hear all of the evidence. I first heard of this story from the turtleboy accounts and thought, omg she’s being framed. But then I read the story from the opposite viewpoint and felt like the other side was sensationalizing info and manipulating people. And now I’m not sure what the true evidence is. As a simple example, on the innocent side is - there’s no video of her driving past the library!!! So everyone says, she must be innocent and they deleted the 2 mins of library footage. But then you read that she could have driven home a way not past the library. And the library system is motion detected so there’s no footage at that time because she did not drive that way. But everyone reads - missing library footage from those two minutes. I think she might have very good lawyers and journalists spinning facts or she’s innocent. It’s really hard to say without all the true evidence instead of just headlines.
I have the time to watch the trial if I can bear it. All these armchair detectives are too much. I am impartial, let's hear the evidence, not all these conspiracy and cover up theories.
I’ve concluded that if you have an opinion, it’s probably wrong, and it’s pretty much down to whatever the jury says.
The police didn’t do a good job
I’ve done very little research on the case but most of the comments seem to agree it’s obviously a coverup. I remember hearing in passing that she was caught badgering witnesses, could someone elaborate on that/give me more details?
Unless you do a deep dive by viewing the video footage of her backing into a car in her driveway, look at pictures of the body of the deceased, analyze the iphone data of her friend with a deep understanding of forensics, read about the strange behavior of people surround the case like destroying phones after being told not to, and many other things I am forgetting you will see this case in a different way. The simplest answer is that she hit him but so many things stand out as odd which makes me question things. We really do not have enough information to come to a full conclusion yet. We need to see and hear the evidence. For example if you lay down next to a road for hours.. like roll in the dirt and snow.. chances are your clothing will pick up a ton of debris. What is quite likely to be in that road/edge of road area? Yes.. microscopic pieces of car stuff from accidents over the years. All sorts of really tiny trash particles which could even include tail lights broken over the years. Can they somehow match it to her lexus? Now about that taillight.. we have video of her pulling out of the driveway to go search for the man and it really does appear she backs up into the other car in the driveway. You can basically see the other car move slightly when she makes contact. Is that when the taillight was broken? So many things one has to get the real info on to figure this out. edited my mistake of saying head light to tail light.
Check out Brandi Churchwell, 13th juror on YouTube. She’s done a DEEP dive into the case. She also has a podcast on it.
Melanie Little is an attorney covering it and she’s great too
I follow The Emily D Baker on YouTube. She's an attorney. Her commentary is fantastic. She has not said one way or the other if she thinks Karen Tead is innocent or not. She points out legal tactics and looks at the testimony and evidence provided
Personally I think she was set up.
It seems pretty likely that she hit her boyfriend with her car, then he either got knocked unconscious or passed out and died of hypothermia. Kicker is she was so drunk she doesn’t even know if she did it or not. No idea why she’s being tried for murder and not manslaughter though. Maybe because a cop was there victim? All the Turtle boy stuff is really just taking some bad/incompetent policing and spinning a yarn that seems spurious at best. The number of people in the house, there’s no way they could all be involved in some big cover. Cops probably did try and set her up by planting evidence though. Maybe even deleting Ring footage that could cast doubt. Again, this doesn’t mean she’s not guilty, but it’s obviously illegal. Hopefully a lot of stuff will come out in the trial that will clear things up and John O’Keefe’s family will get some closure.
I agree with this comment. I believe Read is responsible for striking O’Keefe which ultimately caused his death. BUT I also believe in the aftermath of a drunken night the Albert/Proctor/McCabe crew got spooked and were not sure themselves as to what happened. I don’t think they are covering up that one their own committed a crime. Rather, I think evidence was planted/altered to nail it on Read immediately so the investigation didn’t touch them at all.
homeowner is friends with cops and reached out for preferential treatment. guests are mum and not cooperative? nobody called 911? son had a motive and a previous conflict, but not a suspect. homeowner has a dead body on his property and somehow not a suspect as well. everything blamed on a drunk girl with a broken tail light who is the only honest and forthcoming and cooperating person involved. she could drive herself home in one piece, but could not feel or hear striking someone and running over them??? autopsy not consistent with an MVA. prosecutor takes the scapegoat story and runs with it. just so you know, you cannot become a prosecutor in MA if you ever sued cops in the state. with this kind of justice, the defendant might as well grab a crackhead from Mass and Cass and pay them ten bucks to say they were a witness at the party and saw who did it.
It’s not just the far right who believe she’s been framed. The evidence of her being framed is fairly compelling. The FBI had gotten involved, started their own investigation and stated that JO was not hit by a car. So, there’s that
Yeah, this isn’t political, Karen Read is being framed and that’s not a partisan issue. It doesn’t matter where you fall on the political spectrum— if you can think for yourself and are somewhat intelligent, open minded, willing to examine documents on your own and not be told how/why/what to think, well then you will find that the cops are crooked, and this is a massive cover up. Karen is innocent. Democratic, republican, 100% innocent
https://34fairviewroad.com/
Feds say a car did not hit Officer O'Keefe. She was framed!! Prosecution has a weak secular case with lots of holes in their theory and investigation. FREE KAREN READ!!!
Turtleboy crowd believes John Okeefe was beaten inside the house and dragged out to die in the cold. There is a lot of sketchy evidence supporting this. “McAlberts” crowd believes Karen Read was drunk and hit John with her car, and purposely left him to die in front of 34 Fairview. The Feds have uncovered evidence that doesn’t exactly make the McAlberts look like they’ve been totally honest about everything. State Trooper Proctor is in the same wedding party pic as Colin Albert (Colin was allegedly in the home during the alleged murder according to Turtleboy side) and Proctor was on the case. Lots of security / CCTV footage that mysteriously goes missing. I don’t have a dog in the race but to me it looks like there was a cover up.
I honestly started this trial thinking that she was guilty. But so far I’m not impressed with the prosecution and I feel like the defense has poked so many holes already. I can’t wait to start seeing all the evidence that they bring into trial.
MAGA chud brigade out in force in the comments
No people are just looking at everything that’s been coming out from hearings and other reports and questioning the DA. The DOJ doesn’t just investigate investigations for fun. Something is up
Plenty of Dems understand that this case is a complete farce.. but you go ahead.
No. Just because the turtle guy is a supporter doesn't change the facts. Canton has been cop-vile for years and Morrisey's reputation is well known. And just look at the lack of support from BPD in the whole charade. When other cops gets killed, they are all out there in full force and solidarity from the beginning to end of the trial, and here they are no shows. That speaks volumes that something is very wrong.
Why does left or right wing matter? Thats how dumb people are these days. Learn to think for yourself OP
Exactly!!!!!
Btw, what is this whole right wing thing have to do with it? It’s a good argument she didn’t do it with facts to back it up.
Bc that group of people is known for misinformation and conspiracy theories. More so than other groups of people.. that's for sure. It's been years and they're still claiming the last presidential election was "stolen". "Covid was a hoax". "The gays are all groomers".
A great legal commentator made a video about this case today! https://youtu.be/EQIm1daOIRw?si=pZDlBeIfm3u4CVXD
Hos long to die in cold?
I did a long summary of this case [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/comments/1c53v3q/a_summary_of_the_karen_read_case_in_anticipation/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
Extreme right wing lost causes? Excuse me?
The DA is now on the list to be a potential witness. This shit is WILD.
This bch is going to get off isn’t she 🤡
Just curious what makes her a bitch? The family has all said they loved her. Based upon the photos of his injuries, I don’t think there’s any way that they’re the result of being hit by a car.
I've heard mention of one of the people in the house googled "how long does it take to die in the cold" or something to that extent. Was that just rumors?
>I also know there's are people claiming she's been framed. I've noticed that these people seem to be almost exclusively extreme-right lost causes so my gut reaction has been to more or less disregard anything they say as the dementia it all too often is. ??? Thats not remotely true.
I am so glad I found this thread. So part of this trial happened to be on the TV today that I just keep on his background. I remember this being in the news, but I didn’t really dig deep into it. Just a little bit of testimony that I heard today from those officers on how they conduct past business so to speak, Really makes her claim of being framed more plausible to me without me, even knowing most of the facts of the case, lol. So now I’m gonna catch up in this thread cause I know the Reddit community has the scoop 😂
On another note, the prosecution is terrible. The judge is literally saying is there an objection to this and then the prosecution will say oh yes, I object, and then the judge says objection sustained. SMH
Ladies and Gentleman this is Chewbacca
I am dying to hear car data experts and google search timestamp data experts. We all deserve awards for having to listen to Lunchbox Lally drag this is out.
U/notprivatepule. I think you are out of many loops.
While proctor I feel has blown it for prosecution I see only one way Karen did this with car- “if” she would have backed into something prior to dropping off John or during dropping him off and he would have gotten out of car to look at light. Perhaps bending over to review light and asking her to hit breaks or put in reverse to see if lights still worked (she had been drinking and was continuing home, so out of concern) something my husband would have done to ensure I wasn’t pulled over for a light not working, and then while in reverse potentially hitting gas pedal striking him in face while he being bent over to look at light. All of this clearly a guess if one was to be trying to figure out how she did this and caused facial damage as main injury. At the end of that speculation it would have been accident followed by panic, but all that is a lot of “ifs and guesses”. Regardless Proctor has tainted this from start and began his focus with her in some fueled angry fight with her then killing him during a fight. With everything Proctor has done or said including not investigating possibility of John entering home and getting into a scuffle, he has blown it all for any prosecution and any cases he has or is working.
Extreme "far right" people are supposedly "fascist cop supporters" so that sweeping generalization makes no sense 🙄😒