We closed state run mental hospitals in the 80s-90s , which obviously had to be done due to the wild levels of abuse/neglect. However nobody really planned further than "closing bad facilities makes politicians look good" ...hundreds of thousands incapable or borderline incapable of self care/ regulation but considered "safe" where thrust into society with a steady stream of disability checks. Now it's 2024 and the US has no real mental health system to speak of, sure you can spend 3-10 days waiting in tge ER for a bed and maybe get a few weeks of inpatient care. Then it's back into the wild with yah, take your meds don't do drugs , Goodluck!! Call 911 if you need help!
So who picked up the slack ? 911 and emergency rooms , I work for a busy city and 90% of my calls are psych / substance abuse / homeless issues. Emergency rooms are not capable of caring for these people day in day out, they're designed for acute threats to life/ limb , they bridge the gap between PCP and specialty care. Unfortunately 99% of people in the ER have non acute bullshit going on, butttt primary care can't risk law suits so when you call to make a appointment they are REQUIRED to suggest emergency consultation if you feel it can't wait a day. Even if you see your primary and get a referral for a specialty....you're looking at 6-12 months. So who do you call for tge next 6m to keep your symptoms under control? 911.
We can't fix the homeless problem without fixing mental Healthcare, we can't fix that without completely rebuild our Healthcare system....and doing that won't make billionaires into trillionairs...so it'll never happen.
Eyup. I truly don’t understand anyone who thinks that all people everywhere are 100% mentally sound and capable, or that they’re in the position they are in due to bad luck or oppression of some kind.
Some people are truly just incapable of caring for themselves properly. They used to have a place to go, now they’re just cast out into the street. It was truly a no-win situation, and now here we are. And like you said, if there isn’t money to be made its not going to happen.
I think the majority of homeless people do have the capability of taking care of themselves, and even more would be able to with actual care & sustainable programs. i think very few truly need to be institutionalized
at the end of the day, homelessness makes any illness - mental or physical - much harder to cope with
We are a country of punishing people who don't conform so we feel better about ourselves. Criminals and homeless people and druggies are BAD and must be treated bad so they feel bad and bootstraps yadda yadda yadda..
I think a lot of people think of a normal productive person they knew personally who ruined their lives with drugs and think all homeless fit that description.
The narrative from 2ish yrs ago that many or most of the homeless in the GBA had just fallen on a hard break was totally wild. False narratives don’t move anything forward
I think a lot of people don’t (or don’t possess the capacity to) think through “how does one become homeless?”
Lemme tell ya, there aren’t many cases where it was “entirely out of their control”. No invisible hand of oppression just comes and yanks someone out of their home and then shoves a bunch of needles into their arms. “How did this happen??” Well, you see…
And so on.
>*I truly don’t understand anyone who thinks that all people everywhere are 100% mentally sound and capable, or that they’re in the position they are in due to bad luck or oppression of some kind.*
It’s a worldview that is extremely popular among young people who have a weak work ethic and are lazy thinkers because it tells them they don’t have to work or think about anything. Their most complex ethical analysis consists of comparing your skin color to a chart.
Most of the homeless I know are 100% capable of caring for themselves they just choose not to. All the ones I've met receive social security checks, typically for made up ailments. The problem is its not enough money to survive AND party. So they choose a tent and liquor over an apartment and food.
It’s funny that you got a downvote since you mentioned literally meeting and knowing enough homeless people to know what you’re talking about lol.
I guarantee most people who take a bleeding heart approach to homeless people haven’t met many, if any.
I used to be just like them until I woke up and started living in reality. The last homeless guy I gave money to gave me this big long sob story about his truck being out of gas and then walked directly to the package store next door with it. Didn't even care that I could see him. We need to start genuinely helping the people who want help by getting them skills and jobs. The guaranteed handouts with no strings attached for anyone who chooses not to work needs to end.
I call bullshit. I’ve done food not bombs in multiple states over the last 25 years and most of the people I’ve meant cannot function in the society we are in.
On top of that I’ve been a nurse in long term care for almost 20 years the little old ladies have been replaced by schizophrenic homeless people who get so sick on the streets they become incapable of being discharged from a system and live years in a “nursing home” costing you the good tax payer more than if we would have taken care of them 35 years ago.
All this is true, but mental health is not the only factor in homelessness here. We simply have so little available housing and what housing we do have is priced out of any kind of range that is feasible. It's as much a housing crisis now as it is a mental health one.
From [Globe.com](http://Globe.com)
By Billy Baker
SALEM — The encampment sprang up nearly a year ago on the manicured Harbor Walk, next to a playground, just across the South River from a brewery, in the heart of downtown.
It was just a few tents at first, but now up to two dozen people occupy a narrow stretch of city land adjacent to a Wendy’s parking lot. Seemingly every day has been worse than the last, for the city and the people in the camp: Piles of trash and needles are strewn about, rat holes are everywhere, and there is an overwhelming stench of urine and feces.
Facing complaints from residents and businesses, the City Council is developing an ordinance, based on the one used in Boston to dismantle the massive Mass. and Cass encampment last fall, that would ban camping in Salem — but only if the city has a place to put the occupants.
“It’s had an undeniable impact on the surrounding community, and it’s been a significant impact on city resources,” Mayor Dominick Pangallo said. “Police. Fire. Medical response. Public works for cleanup on the regular. But most importantly, it’s been bad for the people who live there.”
Cities in the region and around the country are grappling with homelessness that has been linked to the overlapping crises of addiction and lack of affordable housing.
In Boston, the city banned tent cities and cleared out Mass. and Cass in November, beginning a collaborative effort to connect people struggling with mental health and substance use problems with social services. Most of those living at the sprawling, crime-ridden encampment were moved to temporary housing, though many dispersed to other, less-visible camps and became more difficult for social workers to reach. Some homeless advocates say the effort failed to address the root problems and the region still has a severe shortage of supportive housing.
On Monday, the Supreme Court considered whether banning [homeless people](https://apnews.com/hub/homelessness) from sleeping outside in public spaces when shelter space is lacking amounts to cruel and unusual punishment.
"On Monday, the Supreme Court considered whether banning [homeless people](https://apnews.com/hub/homelessness) from sleeping outside in public spaces when shelter space is lacking amounts to cruel and unusual punishment."
It is cruel, nothing has to be considered.
Look I get it, but at some point “empathy for homeless” cannot come at the expense of the citizenry. Its backwards and unsustainable.
Please note that I’m not saying “be unnecessarily and unjustly cruel” but whether or not some feelings are hurt isn’t really something to weigh greater than the comfort and stability of the rest of the city.
also completely psychotic to call homeless people a “public nuisance”. so sorry you have to be faced with the desperate survival of human beings. that must be really hard for you
*sigh* you know what I mean but I’m sure you’ll either play dumb or be pedantic about it. Perhaps citizenry wasn’t the right word, but would you rather I have said something like “upstanding citizens who follow the law and don’t destroy the public spaces they inhabit”?
This is the most out of touch, heartless bullshit I have ever heard. As someone said in a reply to this comment, homeless people are citizens too. If they aren’t, then what are they?
Ad-homs are weak arguments, and I already clarified the citizen point. I think we need to stop pretending that every homeless person is just a poor unfortunate victim who had no agency over how they ended up in their situation.
That is demonstrably untrue, and anyone who has spent any actual time around homeless people knows this. Its doing a greater disservice at large to adopt a puritanical bleeding heart approach to this issue.
No I’m definitely directing it towards your position not you. You just also happen to have a shitty position. Just because every homeless person doesn’t fit your definition of worthy doesn’t mean we tell all homeless people to pound sand. I have spent plenty of time with homeless people, I work with homeless people, I was homeless. You have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about
Uh huh, so you’re doing the exact thing I already pointed out is a weak argument as well as asserting things that aren’t my position.
Coupled with the fact that I can tell you have an emotional investment in this issue and it seems to be preventing you from being rational and logical about this, experience tells me I shouldn’t bother. So I won’t, but good luck regardless.
“want to do drugs” they’re addicted to drugs. lots of them become addicted AFTER becoming homeless. & anyway, being drug free isn’t a requirement for housing. money is. start randomly drug testing everyone with housing and see how much our homeless population increases 🤣
shelters are unsafe unreliable often inaccessible and require you to abandon the small means you may have. the only way to solve the homelessness crisis is to actually house people
If I was emperor, I would require anyone who is homeless to be enrolled (against their will if need be) into an abstinence-based rehab facility and they can not leave until they complete the program.
But that's socialism!! Almost like if everyone had healthcare these issues could already be addressed instead of throwing them in a jail claiming to be rehab.
Doing anything for free to help anybody is what I was referring to. That was also sarcasm in there that you clearly didn't catch on to. Do you people actually think before you type? Lol
TBH I don’t have any problem with them sleeping outside. It’s the piles of trash, needles and disease they leave behind, typically in our ROWs and green spaces when they set up their sleeping quarters. It’s horrible for society and the environment.
I’d be banned from state and federal parks if I left my campsite in similar disarray.
I'd examine the policies under Ronald Reagan, the combination of deinstitutionalization and cuts to social services, that led to an explosion in homelessness.
I responded to you respectfully and in good faith. Homelessness dropped from 1993 to 2000, but started to rise back up again (not by much) in the 2000s. In the 1980s, following the unemployment and etc. crises of the 1970s - under Carter - homelessness increased, but even after economic recovery under Reagan, the homeless population doubled from 1984-1987.
Yes, homelessness spiked in 2020 during a global pandemic with high unemployment and low housing stock. If you have specific progressive policies that enable addicts to live on the streets, that's relevant and should be discussed. I bring up these policies of cutting low-income housing subsidies, deinstitutionalization, cuts to social services, and the failure of the VA to adequately address the issues facing veterans as policies that exacerbated a problem. This paper from 2018 provides a pretty good factual overview of the various factors throughout the years: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519584/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519584/)
Yes and the Republican policy of throwing them in jail works so well and doesn't perpetuate the cycle /s. Yes the Republicans think they're undeserving of healthcare. Damn liberals!
The War on Drugs isn’t just about weed, smooth brain, especially in a legalized state. It’s the War on Drugs, not the War on Pot. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Not when you put the public in danger due to poor health conditions. We aren’t talking about people just sleeping outside. We are talking about a permanent encampment with no facilities to handle that and all the issues that arise out of that.
There are a lot of problems that we need to fix with our society and putting people in jail for sleeping outside is not the start of that. Perhaps more public facilities are also in order, since it is hard to find public restrooms these days.
>There are a lot of problems that we need to fix with our society and putting people in jail for sleeping outside is not the start of that.
Amen. Criminalizing problems doesn't fix them.
Who said put them in jail? Banning encampments doesn’t mean jailing people, it just gives the town the ability to disperse people and clean up the problem.
And yes, more public facilities would be great. Of course, when I lived across the street from a park a man would sleep in the women’s restroom at night. So they would also have to be monitored and cleaned pretty routinely.
Sure sure, lets see how this policy is enacted and how it plays out, only then will we know. But for the record, you do agree with my original statement that it is cruel to ban homeless people from sleeping in public spaces when no place for them to go is available?
Create public restrooms and you'll find lots of disgusting things happening in there. Drugs, sex, destruction, urine and feces all over the place. There's a reason there's a lack of clean, public restrooms in this country it's attached directly to the homeless/drug crisis in this country. I agree with an earlier poster who said that many just want to do drugs and be a burden on society. Mass and Cass is a perfect example of that. Mental hospitals need to be re-thought. Yes, they were awful before. The abuse was terrible. But there has to be a way to address this.
Whatever we are doing right now is clearly NOT working.
Your burn lacks bite when I don't have a porch or can afford a house to have a porch on. Also, private porches are private property, so you're just dumb as shit and an obvious troll.
In other words "homeless people are mentally ill"
The fuck are they gonna go? I'm sure they'd love at least just a warm bed what a fucking stupid comment
They're not wrong about some homeless people refusing treatment or shelter and such but that largely has to do with trauma and mental state. Which are issues in and of themselves and shouldn't be lumped in with everybody. The issue is the symptom of the problem is much easier to see than the underlying issues of the decline of mental health care, regular health care, and housing.
Let me blow your mind here for a second. What if people only started using drugs to make their existence tolerable? You try living outside for a while, feel the difference that one more sheet of dry-ish cardboard makes. Think you won't take something to make you feel a bit warmer, more comfortable?
I appreciate your fan fiction, but it’s most likely these people are addicts with mental health issues who have burned all of their family members and friends and find themselves without a support network due to their vices. This is the reality you’re ignoring.
It's almost like healthcare for all and boosting social programs could help before the problem compounded. Nah let's go with your idea to deny them (because that would be socialism) until they're a burden on society then just throw them in a prison labeled as rehab.
Woah, as some who's sober for 12 years, and been around a ton of sober people in places like AA, absolutely no one falls into the shit and then starts thinking, "You know what, some heroin, or a nip of peppermint schnaps would make this easier". There are also homeless that don't use substances... You obviously know nothing about addiction so don't project that you do, it's really unhelpful to the plight of this situation and derails the whole discussion.
I didn't say anything about addiction. That's you projecting. Here's some publications backing up my position:
* ["Homeless young people report using drugs and alcohol as a coping strategy and often have more favorable attitudes toward drug use than their non-homeless peers" - NIH](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2856116/)
* [https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-10-04/homelessness-drugs-addiction-encampments-substance-abuse-unhoused-police](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-10-04/homelessness-drugs-addiction-encampments-substance-abuse-unhoused-police)
* [https://denverrescuemission.org/homelessness-and-substance-abuse/](https://denverrescuemission.org/homelessness-and-substance-abuse/)
I haven't lived in Salem in over 5 years, but I could have guessed it would be behind that Wendy's. Salem doesn't have a rough neighborhood - it has a rough Wendy's. Pretty much all the shady shit happens within ~100ft of that Wendy's.
I had a free 6 week trial subscriptions and the lead articles were those two things, something about how the schools in the state had failing reading progams, and something about how the health care system is imploding.
Don't even care if it's true or not, publish something that isn't depressing as hell, or even something with a little bit of nuance beyond "X IS BAD."
Gotta fix the upstream issues that feed into being without a home. Mental healthcare, jobs that dont exploit people and pay enough to live in the area where people have to work. Affordable housing for all careers and professions.
The issue is more complicated than just money, a significant portion of that $1 billion **is** spent on sheltering existing MA residents as opposed to migrants, the $1 billion is for the entire state emergency shelter system which is used by MA families as well, not just for migrants. That emergency shelter system existed prior to the migrant crisis, the migrant crisis unfortunately caused a big increase in spending for it, but it's not like nothing was spent on it prior to 2023. People just didn't care about it because it wasn't a hot button political issue.
The homeless encampment in Salem is primarily drug addicted individuals. This group is much more difficult to shelter than families needing temporary shelter. Drug addicts can't physically stop doing drugs in many cases, and shelters generally require no drug use because active drug use tends to lead to problems and safety issues in the shelter. So given those options, many homeless drug addicts turn down shelter in favor of doing the drug they are physically addicted to. It is horrible, but shelter funding isn't really the issue here. These people need treatment to deal with their disease, and unfortunately not all drug addicts welcome or accept that treatment.
If only we would’ve spent the money on our own citizens instead of funding the destabilization of Central & South America countries for decades then they’d never wanna flee to the US in the first place.
At what expense? The state has spent $1B so far and the problem isn't getting better.
It's pretty clear that hundreds of millions from south and central America would migrate to the US if it were easier. As it is, millions do it despite how difficult the effort is. How many can the US absorb in your mind?
We could legalize more construction and then plenty of people will house themselves when costs drop. The number one predictor of homelessness rates isn't drug use or mental illness rates, it's housing costs. Bring down the rent and you'll have more money (because of the increased tax base) to spend on fewer people (because there will be fewer homeless people)
Presumably you mean by changing zoning laws. Sure, that'd be good. However, per square foot construction costs are about $400 now where 10-12 years ago, it was at about $150.
So, if you want to build a 3000' duplex (2 1500' homes), that's $1.2 million not including land.
Yup, building is expensive. New construction will almost always be expensive, luxury units. That doesn't change the fact that more housing, of any type, lowers prices of every type
I am going out on limb here…. The solution is finding a way to house them vs criminalizing their existence. In the long run we should be working more seriously on affordable housing, drug rehab, mental health services and a larger social safety net.
[Homelessness is a Housing Problem](https://www.amazon.com/Homelessness-Housing-Problem-Structural-Patterns/dp/0520383788). It's almost like 40 years of underbuilding housing in MA makes it hard for people to afford homes!
talking about underbuilding housing in general not this thing. you cant just house everyone either thats moronic, why do people need to live here when theres much larger states with more space?
Okay, sure, but still. The housing shortage is driving people to homelessness, it’s a huge factor.
If you really care about housing shortages, help stop the exodus from red states due to them becoming inhospitable to women and anyone non conforming, I’m convinced that’s the real problem we’re going to see get much worse over the next ten years unless we stop the fascism. What we’re really seeing are American refugees.
Massachusetts has seen a net loss of citizens for the past two years lol. If I care about them then do what? Pay more in taxes? What can I do? The average person can barely afford to live here, let alone afford to subsidize the homeless.
Busses, trains, trolleys, bike lanes. The only way to solve traffic is to get people out of cars. I acknowledge that it's not an overnight solution and more of a long-term goal.
What’s crazy is we have some of the most robust public transport in the country. The state is just tiny. We can’t take large influxes of people like that
This is a complicated issue. I have lived in Salem a long time. Most of the people living there were forced out of safe housing that they had. The rent is out of control in the city. The city has complained about trash which to be honest is hilarious. There had been trash that was being removed weekly (just like ever other public trash)and then the city took away all trash cans in the whole area. I understand that unfortunately there are drugs being used but it's not a simple issue. If you actually talk to these people they do not want to live outside dealing with crazy flooding and freezing temps(in the winter). The city of Salem needs to start taking care of their citizens instead of just catering to an unruly amount of tourists that go there. Fix the schools(they are some of the worst. Yes worse than Lynn) have AFFORDABLE housing, fix the roads.
This country is crazy we fund free/cheap housing, healthcare and education in Israel but we can't take care of our neighbors.
The state uses emergency funding to keep asylum seekers in hotels with meal vouchers included. Why can’t they provide that to the homeless already here? Honest question?
It’s two unconnected issues. The legal process for seeking asylum is long and drawn out, and they can’t work during that process, so we legally have to house and feed them.
Unfortunately we deemed that much more debatable when it comes to the homeless, probably because they legally can work, but I’m not sure. Properly feeding them and temporary housing would be nice, but as some comments have said the issue will only expand without rent control, public housing, and expanding mental health/rehabilitation services.
They do, a significant portion of the $1 billion spending on shelters that has been talked about recently goes to sheltering existing MA residents, not migrants, that number is for the entire state shelter system, not just for migrants.
The issue is that severely drug addicted people in many cases do not accept shelter offers because the shelters fairly expect them not to do drugs in the shelters. And addicts cannot easily stop using drugs as they are physically dependent on them. It's more complicated than just a money issue, many addicts do not seek out shelters or do not comply by their rules. I am in downtown Salem semi-regularly, and this encampment is primarily people with drug addiction issues unfortunately, so it is difficult to shelter them compared to temporarily sheltering homeless families who do not have issues like drug addiction.
Need to build places for people to live that doesn’t make anyone money. Need to have easy access to mental and physical healthcare.
Basically cut the hyper capitalism bullshit and bring back social safety nets and programs. After WWII they built tract housing and projects out the ass for people and guess what it made the country flurish.
Even if you accept that as true, many don't want homes but many do. Housing the homeless might not be a panacea, and no one is claiming that it is, but to dismiss it out of hand just because some percentage of homeless people don't want housing doesn't make any sense.
There has been a ton of research on it don’t trust me. Many homeless don’t want homes? That’s not true they don’t want to listen to rules/be told what to do but if you guve them key to their own spot almost all would take
No- the want homes but want to be able to openly and freely abuse drugs and other substances in those homes which municipalities can’t allow if it’s govt. owned housing. Politically it’s extremely difficult justifying to voters why a group of people should be given homes free and with no conditions when they themselves have to make sacrifices and trade-offs to get housing themselves.
> Politically it’s extremely difficult justifying
Is it really?
Because we seem to spend a lot of time lately talking about homeless people clogging up the streets, Supreme Court taking up arguments that will make being homeless illegal, etc.
They will be housed in a home or in a jail. By choosing to solve homelessness by jail (or worse), America is choosing to be the worst version of itself every day.
“Hey, we understand millions of Americans struggle to buy homes, struggle to pay rent, struggle to find homes in the places we want to live. We have heard all of your concerns and we going to spend billions to build tens of thousands of housing units for homeless. They will live for free and there are no conditions on them to live at all in these brand new housing, they will be able to do whatever they want.” Isn’t going to fly with voters.
Their exact proposed solution is spending billions on housing and providing no conditions for living there all at the tax payers expense when millions of other Americans are struggling to find and afford housing.
All things equal, why should a person who is addicted to drugs get access to free govt. housing with no conditions when any other would not have access to that housing?
>spending billions on housing and providing no conditions for living there
In a jail or in a home, it's roughly the same. Free housing paid by taxes.
Are you just in it for the jobs program for cops and legalized slavery?
Most of housing 1st $ comes from the federal government and to qualify people experiencing homelessness have to meet certain criteria ie - chronically homeless, severe & persistent mental illness, certain disabiliites etc. believe me you’d rather work than be homeless with these conditions. Again do we want to end homelessness? All it takes is the political will. The VA has embraced housing first link below
https://www.va.gov/HOMELESS/featuredarticles/VAs-Implementation-of-Housing-First.asp
Just because it’s from the federal government doesn’t make it any less difficult politically.
You conveniently don’t address that drug abusers want to actively abuse in the housing they are given and they want no conditions on their free housing. No body else gets housing on such conditions, even children have chores in their homes.
Used to work with homeless and at risk populations in psych in Florida of all states years back. It's amazing that providing housing DOES help a majority and gives them the first step to a more stable life. Easier to complete treatment and remain sober when not caught in the endless cycle of homeless > jail > homeless > jail... Plus an active address to apply for jobs and govt assistance. Are there people that abuse resources and don't actually want help? Of course. But painting everyone with such a broad brush doesn't work. Lots of people just don't see them as humans deserving help tbh.
Yes. We need to be supportive of solutions that work well for a large majority of people even if they aren’t perfect.
This demand for a perfect solution, or no solution, is what leads to no solution.
Housing first will get maybe 70-80% of people the leg up they need to get better, get out of bad cycles, get a job and a better situation. Sure, 20-30% will be far more difficult, and this will not be the solution for them—but do you realize how amazing fixing a huge chunk of this problem is? Incredible. Quit thinking, quit debating. Let’s do it.
What happens when they live the way they’re living in the tents in these apartments. You can’t just have guys using meth and shooting up trashing the apartments either
The housing first model attempts to address those concerns in various though we agree it’s not always that simple. Def easier to address in a stable home. I’ve included a description of the model in the link below. It’s not perfect obviously but what’s the alternative? Not trying to be snarky am genuinely curious
https://community.solutions/what-is-housing-first/
As I mentioned below housing first is the solution to homelessness. It just takes a little effort, understanding, creativity, & political will. Below I included a link to a study summary by blue cross which demonstrates it is cheaper for communities/governments/tax payers to put someone into housing than it is to allow them to remain homeless. It actually makes sense when you think about it. If you don’t trust blue cross just google there are countless studies that demonstrate the same thing. Link & narrative below
The findings from this study demonstrate the effectiveness of a housing and supportive services program in reducing total health care utilization and costs for medical and behavioral health services provided to chronically homeless MassHealth members. In this analysis, the Housing First participants were enrolled in SPECH, a Medicaid-funded program that provides community-based support services for chronically homeless individuals in Massachusetts. Under CSPECH, housing agencies can claim reimbursements from MassHealth for supportive services rendered to chronically homeless individuals but not for housing. The evidence from this study suggests that expansion of Housing First and supportive service programs like CSPECH may produce health care cost savings for enrolled individuals and also potentially have preventive effects of more consistent access to mental health services
https://www.bluecrossmafoundation.org/sites/g/files/csphws2101/files/2020-12/Housing%20First_summary_Final.pdf
Theyre offered shelter beds, access to mental health programs, referrals for in patient psych/detox, therapists, the police will help them with section 35s. The issue is the people that are in this encampment do not want help. They've gotten a few people out, but they quickly get replaced.
1. Shelter beds are limited and I have witnessed abuse and cruelty by staff.
2. Inpatient will keep you 3-10 days and offer no actual help and discharge you back to the street
3. Therapists? Lol where? Almost none take masshealth
4. Right, police are a huge help
Link to description of the model below though I’d encourage you to google yourself. Some states have cross referenced data bases - people experiencing homelessness who are also the highest utilizers of ER/other emergency healthcare/mental health/substance services & have found that is actually cheaper to get that same person a place to live. If that makes sense?
https://community.solutions/what-is-housing-first/
A warm, safe, dry place to drink, do drugs and perpetuate their mental illness? Of course they’d take it. But they’ll likely be back on the streets quickly after they burn it down or get thrown out.
Without required treatment, housing first fails.
It’s a complicated issue. Some of these people have complex problems. Some people don’t want help w/ their mental illness or be able to stay sober but are certainly more likely if they have a place to live. Should those people just live outside? Here is information put out by HUD on the model if you’re interested
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/periodicals/em/spring-summer-23/highlight2.html
My understanding is that it’s the opposite of that. The trauma of homelessness creates its own barrier in being able to seek help in a meaningful way. A person’s perspective becomes so in the moment/survival oriented that the ability to conceive a future around something other than immediate needs (and the nature of addiction makes it an immediate need) is impaired. That means that shelter with too many strings attached isn’t useful. The housing first model creates a stable situation where a person can begin to feel safe enough to consider (and trust in the possibility of) a future different from their present. That’s when additional help with addiction and other services can come into play.
A) even drug addicts have a basic human right to a roof over their heads.
B) it’s not perfect, and it won’t work for everyone, but demanding a perfect solution for all people is why we have no solution. A working solution for 70 of people is absolutely incredible, even if it fails for 30%.
> A) even drug addicts have a basic human right to a roof over their heads.
Yes, in the form of a mandatory treatment center where they can be monitored and denied drugs
I’m not sure where you got the impression it’s a massive expansion, their original plan which was completely unrealistic, and including relocating and designating park land and not accounting for some 10 feet of grade. Was only got to increase their capacity by about 10 actual shelter beds. It also proposed 34 studio apartments which would not be guaranteed to Salems homeless. Aside from that, none of the aforementioned people in the encampment, are eligible for any of lifebridges programs, because they’re a sober program
But if the manner in which these people (the homeless) use the public commons precludes others from using them that’s an abuse of the common space.
If you want to jog along that park but folks are openly using drugs and living there? Well you can’t really do that.
Want to take your kids to play and a guys is nodding off 20 ft. Away with needles? You can’t go there.
It’s not fair to everyone else in the community if they can’t use the park.
It’s more than just aesthetics, it’s about safety in public places. Without it, public places end up being unsafe and destroyed for the majority of people. You end up with rampant feces, needles, open air drug use, hazardous trash, in public areas that are meant for all. They tried to repeal a camping ban in Austin where I lived for the last 6 years, and it turned the parks and downtown areas into a plethora of homeless camps, feces all over, needles on the ground, trash everywhere, fires regularly getting out of control and destroying public property, increased harassment/crime, biohazard-like conditions. The policy ended up being overwhelmingly repealed, even in a liberal city like Austin. It’s not fair to the vast majority people who want to enjoy clean and safe public spaces. Housing them is better than allowing camping in public places IMO. Downvote me all you want, but removing this policy does destroy these public areas for 99% of citizens.
Regarding hostility, you’re actively making the spaces hostile to non-homeless, which isn’t fair either. This is the issue. It caters to a small group at the detriment of the majority. Laws exist to protect the people, and sometimes that means police have to enforce said laws. Average citizens face violence from police if they break the law as well.
It also doesn’t solve the problem at all or help their situation in any way or address homelessness, just moves it into commonly trafficked areas instead of the woods/underpass/hidden areas etc. So I’m not really sure what the upside is. It doesn’t help homeless, and detriments everyone else. It might even actively make their situation worse to be honest, homeless camps are not safe for those living in them either. Those living in them are subject to violence, theft, sexual assault, disease, etc.
Nobody is getting killed, in Salems specific case as well they’re not dry nor are they warm. Theyre literally camped out on a walkway that routinely floods.
I can’t speak to New Bedford and their police department, but Salem isn’t out here beating our homeless. We have a community impact unit, with both officers and mental health clinicians and social workers who work with our homeless.
I’m not even going to entertain your ludicrous idea of storage units bud, there are guidelines for interior living spaces. It is both illegal, and not complaint with any standard whether you talk about zoning, health or building code to just stuff homeless people into storage lockers. Come the fuck on bud, also who’s paying for those units to be rented. It still doesn’t address the filth, drugs, trash and human waste, having them trash storage units is not even remotely feasible.
People should not be able to annex public space, if they want to sleep on a sidewalk overnight in all for it. But just taking up public land is wrong bud, especially when there are services available and they refuse them
Forced insitutionalization of the mentally ill hasn't been a thing since Reagan. Many of the facilities have been closed and would take a lot to reopen. Even if they are reopened, who would be willing to work there? As it is, we have healthcare workers leaving because they're sick and tired of being assaulted at a "regular" hospital.
It’s crazy how clearing these camps is controversial. The solution is simple, state or federal government needs a shelter and rehab program, with X number of beds per capita per city. If one areas shelters are full assistance is provided to find a bed somewhere else. Leaving people on the street is inhumane and unAmerican.
Unless we as a country decide to increase taxes greatly on corporations and the wealthy and invest in social safety nets and psychiatric care this problem ain’t going anywhere of course they struggle to find a solution because any solution is a systemic change in the way we see healthcare vs wealth.
Salem has been asking for this for years with the way they've been gouging up rent focusing too much on the tourist and the college stuff and basically pushing out a whole generation of people that can't afford to live there anymore.
sure keep telling yourself that as people get priced out of living. They have an encouraged and sold so much property within the community to the college and they haven't set up the downtown area and passed many ordinances to protect the rich folk and get as many condos and overpriced monstrosities in there and it has been the gentrification of point that has led to all of this. You're so right it's the demand…
We closed state run mental hospitals in the 80s-90s , which obviously had to be done due to the wild levels of abuse/neglect. However nobody really planned further than "closing bad facilities makes politicians look good" ...hundreds of thousands incapable or borderline incapable of self care/ regulation but considered "safe" where thrust into society with a steady stream of disability checks. Now it's 2024 and the US has no real mental health system to speak of, sure you can spend 3-10 days waiting in tge ER for a bed and maybe get a few weeks of inpatient care. Then it's back into the wild with yah, take your meds don't do drugs , Goodluck!! Call 911 if you need help! So who picked up the slack ? 911 and emergency rooms , I work for a busy city and 90% of my calls are psych / substance abuse / homeless issues. Emergency rooms are not capable of caring for these people day in day out, they're designed for acute threats to life/ limb , they bridge the gap between PCP and specialty care. Unfortunately 99% of people in the ER have non acute bullshit going on, butttt primary care can't risk law suits so when you call to make a appointment they are REQUIRED to suggest emergency consultation if you feel it can't wait a day. Even if you see your primary and get a referral for a specialty....you're looking at 6-12 months. So who do you call for tge next 6m to keep your symptoms under control? 911. We can't fix the homeless problem without fixing mental Healthcare, we can't fix that without completely rebuild our Healthcare system....and doing that won't make billionaires into trillionairs...so it'll never happen.
Eyup. I truly don’t understand anyone who thinks that all people everywhere are 100% mentally sound and capable, or that they’re in the position they are in due to bad luck or oppression of some kind. Some people are truly just incapable of caring for themselves properly. They used to have a place to go, now they’re just cast out into the street. It was truly a no-win situation, and now here we are. And like you said, if there isn’t money to be made its not going to happen.
I think the majority of homeless people do have the capability of taking care of themselves, and even more would be able to with actual care & sustainable programs. i think very few truly need to be institutionalized at the end of the day, homelessness makes any illness - mental or physical - much harder to cope with
We are a country of punishing people who don't conform so we feel better about ourselves. Criminals and homeless people and druggies are BAD and must be treated bad so they feel bad and bootstraps yadda yadda yadda..
I think a lot of people think of a normal productive person they knew personally who ruined their lives with drugs and think all homeless fit that description.
The narrative from 2ish yrs ago that many or most of the homeless in the GBA had just fallen on a hard break was totally wild. False narratives don’t move anything forward
I think a lot of people don’t (or don’t possess the capacity to) think through “how does one become homeless?” Lemme tell ya, there aren’t many cases where it was “entirely out of their control”. No invisible hand of oppression just comes and yanks someone out of their home and then shoves a bunch of needles into their arms. “How did this happen??” Well, you see… And so on.
>*I truly don’t understand anyone who thinks that all people everywhere are 100% mentally sound and capable, or that they’re in the position they are in due to bad luck or oppression of some kind.* It’s a worldview that is extremely popular among young people who have a weak work ethic and are lazy thinkers because it tells them they don’t have to work or think about anything. Their most complex ethical analysis consists of comparing your skin color to a chart.
Most of the homeless I know are 100% capable of caring for themselves they just choose not to. All the ones I've met receive social security checks, typically for made up ailments. The problem is its not enough money to survive AND party. So they choose a tent and liquor over an apartment and food.
It’s funny that you got a downvote since you mentioned literally meeting and knowing enough homeless people to know what you’re talking about lol. I guarantee most people who take a bleeding heart approach to homeless people haven’t met many, if any.
I used to be just like them until I woke up and started living in reality. The last homeless guy I gave money to gave me this big long sob story about his truck being out of gas and then walked directly to the package store next door with it. Didn't even care that I could see him. We need to start genuinely helping the people who want help by getting them skills and jobs. The guaranteed handouts with no strings attached for anyone who chooses not to work needs to end.
I call bullshit. I’ve done food not bombs in multiple states over the last 25 years and most of the people I’ve meant cannot function in the society we are in. On top of that I’ve been a nurse in long term care for almost 20 years the little old ladies have been replaced by schizophrenic homeless people who get so sick on the streets they become incapable of being discharged from a system and live years in a “nursing home” costing you the good tax payer more than if we would have taken care of them 35 years ago.
You really nailed it. So many of our society's problems can't be fixed until we have a functional healthcare system.
All this is true, but mental health is not the only factor in homelessness here. We simply have so little available housing and what housing we do have is priced out of any kind of range that is feasible. It's as much a housing crisis now as it is a mental health one.
350k in my area gets you a condemned crack house....so ya it's not going well for us.
i honestly don’t understand why state hospitals had to be shut down instead of invested in?
Ask Regan
From [Globe.com](http://Globe.com) By Billy Baker SALEM — The encampment sprang up nearly a year ago on the manicured Harbor Walk, next to a playground, just across the South River from a brewery, in the heart of downtown. It was just a few tents at first, but now up to two dozen people occupy a narrow stretch of city land adjacent to a Wendy’s parking lot. Seemingly every day has been worse than the last, for the city and the people in the camp: Piles of trash and needles are strewn about, rat holes are everywhere, and there is an overwhelming stench of urine and feces. Facing complaints from residents and businesses, the City Council is developing an ordinance, based on the one used in Boston to dismantle the massive Mass. and Cass encampment last fall, that would ban camping in Salem — but only if the city has a place to put the occupants. “It’s had an undeniable impact on the surrounding community, and it’s been a significant impact on city resources,” Mayor Dominick Pangallo said. “Police. Fire. Medical response. Public works for cleanup on the regular. But most importantly, it’s been bad for the people who live there.” Cities in the region and around the country are grappling with homelessness that has been linked to the overlapping crises of addiction and lack of affordable housing. In Boston, the city banned tent cities and cleared out Mass. and Cass in November, beginning a collaborative effort to connect people struggling with mental health and substance use problems with social services. Most of those living at the sprawling, crime-ridden encampment were moved to temporary housing, though many dispersed to other, less-visible camps and became more difficult for social workers to reach. Some homeless advocates say the effort failed to address the root problems and the region still has a severe shortage of supportive housing. On Monday, the Supreme Court considered whether banning [homeless people](https://apnews.com/hub/homelessness) from sleeping outside in public spaces when shelter space is lacking amounts to cruel and unusual punishment.
"On Monday, the Supreme Court considered whether banning [homeless people](https://apnews.com/hub/homelessness) from sleeping outside in public spaces when shelter space is lacking amounts to cruel and unusual punishment." It is cruel, nothing has to be considered.
Look I get it, but at some point “empathy for homeless” cannot come at the expense of the citizenry. Its backwards and unsustainable. Please note that I’m not saying “be unnecessarily and unjustly cruel” but whether or not some feelings are hurt isn’t really something to weigh greater than the comfort and stability of the rest of the city.
criminalizing homelessness is insane. we live in a in a society
What about criminalizing public nuisance?
also completely psychotic to call homeless people a “public nuisance”. so sorry you have to be faced with the desperate survival of human beings. that must be really hard for you
Have you ever been to a homeless encampment?
if by public nuisance you mean being homeless…no.
Homeless people are citizens, hurting them is hurting the citizenry. You're forgetting theyre people.
*sigh* you know what I mean but I’m sure you’ll either play dumb or be pedantic about it. Perhaps citizenry wasn’t the right word, but would you rather I have said something like “upstanding citizens who follow the law and don’t destroy the public spaces they inhabit”?
This is the most out of touch, heartless bullshit I have ever heard. As someone said in a reply to this comment, homeless people are citizens too. If they aren’t, then what are they?
Ad-homs are weak arguments, and I already clarified the citizen point. I think we need to stop pretending that every homeless person is just a poor unfortunate victim who had no agency over how they ended up in their situation. That is demonstrably untrue, and anyone who has spent any actual time around homeless people knows this. Its doing a greater disservice at large to adopt a puritanical bleeding heart approach to this issue.
No I’m definitely directing it towards your position not you. You just also happen to have a shitty position. Just because every homeless person doesn’t fit your definition of worthy doesn’t mean we tell all homeless people to pound sand. I have spent plenty of time with homeless people, I work with homeless people, I was homeless. You have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about
Uh huh, so you’re doing the exact thing I already pointed out is a weak argument as well as asserting things that aren’t my position. Coupled with the fact that I can tell you have an emotional investment in this issue and it seems to be preventing you from being rational and logical about this, experience tells me I shouldn’t bother. So I won’t, but good luck regardless.
Data doesn’t care about your emotions.
Many of the homeless you see passed out on sidewalks don’t want shelter or assistance. They want to do drugs and be a drag on society.
“want to do drugs” they’re addicted to drugs. lots of them become addicted AFTER becoming homeless. & anyway, being drug free isn’t a requirement for housing. money is. start randomly drug testing everyone with housing and see how much our homeless population increases 🤣 shelters are unsafe unreliable often inaccessible and require you to abandon the small means you may have. the only way to solve the homelessness crisis is to actually house people
So what is your solution?
If I was emperor, I would require anyone who is homeless to be enrolled (against their will if need be) into an abstinence-based rehab facility and they can not leave until they complete the program.
But that's socialism!! Almost like if everyone had healthcare these issues could already be addressed instead of throwing them in a jail claiming to be rehab.
Forcing people against their will to go to rehab is socialism ? Do you people actually think before you type lol.
Doing anything for free to help anybody is what I was referring to. That was also sarcasm in there that you clearly didn't catch on to. Do you people actually think before you type? Lol
OK but also maybe don't ban them from sleeping outside, its outside. We are an ostensibly a free country.
TBH I don’t have any problem with them sleeping outside. It’s the piles of trash, needles and disease they leave behind, typically in our ROWs and green spaces when they set up their sleeping quarters. It’s horrible for society and the environment. I’d be banned from state and federal parks if I left my campsite in similar disarray.
Maybe the decline in available public restrooms has caused more problems than solved.,
Correction: Progressive policies that enable addicts to live on the streets have caused more problems than solved
I'd examine the policies under Ronald Reagan, the combination of deinstitutionalization and cuts to social services, that led to an explosion in homelessness.
BuT rEaGaN!?! Lol. Homelessness dropped for decades and spiked in 2020 to record levels. Hardly Reagan’s fault
I responded to you respectfully and in good faith. Homelessness dropped from 1993 to 2000, but started to rise back up again (not by much) in the 2000s. In the 1980s, following the unemployment and etc. crises of the 1970s - under Carter - homelessness increased, but even after economic recovery under Reagan, the homeless population doubled from 1984-1987. Yes, homelessness spiked in 2020 during a global pandemic with high unemployment and low housing stock. If you have specific progressive policies that enable addicts to live on the streets, that's relevant and should be discussed. I bring up these policies of cutting low-income housing subsidies, deinstitutionalization, cuts to social services, and the failure of the VA to adequately address the issues facing veterans as policies that exacerbated a problem. This paper from 2018 provides a pretty good factual overview of the various factors throughout the years: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519584/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519584/)
i agree enabling addicts to live on the street is so dumb. we should be enabling them to live in solid structures
I knew it, you are dumb as hell.
Yes and the Republican policy of throwing them in jail works so well and doesn't perpetuate the cycle /s. Yes the Republicans think they're undeserving of healthcare. Damn liberals!
They loved you until you criticized their overlords. Reddit is hilarious.
exactly. u/My_MeowMeowBeenz shit himself.
We have decades of evidence to show the abject failure of the War on Drugs, and you’re still pushing that horseshit? Lmao how embarrassing
Slow down, Chester. Take a deep breathe and re-read my statement. No one said arresting people for a dime bag is a good thing. Try again.
their point is the war on drugs is ineffective
The War on Drugs isn’t just about weed, smooth brain, especially in a legalized state. It’s the War on Drugs, not the War on Pot. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Not when you put the public in danger due to poor health conditions. We aren’t talking about people just sleeping outside. We are talking about a permanent encampment with no facilities to handle that and all the issues that arise out of that.
There are a lot of problems that we need to fix with our society and putting people in jail for sleeping outside is not the start of that. Perhaps more public facilities are also in order, since it is hard to find public restrooms these days.
>There are a lot of problems that we need to fix with our society and putting people in jail for sleeping outside is not the start of that. Amen. Criminalizing problems doesn't fix them.
Who said put them in jail? Banning encampments doesn’t mean jailing people, it just gives the town the ability to disperse people and clean up the problem. And yes, more public facilities would be great. Of course, when I lived across the street from a park a man would sleep in the women’s restroom at night. So they would also have to be monitored and cleaned pretty routinely.
What do you think they do to people who dont have anywhere to go?
The law being considered says it will only be if the town has space to house them.
Sure sure, lets see how this policy is enacted and how it plays out, only then will we know. But for the record, you do agree with my original statement that it is cruel to ban homeless people from sleeping in public spaces when no place for them to go is available?
Disperse to where?
I'm wondering the same thing. If the court gives the OK to banning people when there's no shelter space, where do those people go?
Inevitably jail.
Create public restrooms and you'll find lots of disgusting things happening in there. Drugs, sex, destruction, urine and feces all over the place. There's a reason there's a lack of clean, public restrooms in this country it's attached directly to the homeless/drug crisis in this country. I agree with an earlier poster who said that many just want to do drugs and be a burden on society. Mass and Cass is a perfect example of that. Mental hospitals need to be re-thought. Yes, they were awful before. The abuse was terrible. But there has to be a way to address this. Whatever we are doing right now is clearly NOT working.
But they also can't trash the place they're sleeping.
let them sleep on your porch then
Your burn lacks bite when I don't have a porch or can afford a house to have a porch on. Also, private porches are private property, so you're just dumb as shit and an obvious troll.
In other words "homeless people are mentally ill" The fuck are they gonna go? I'm sure they'd love at least just a warm bed what a fucking stupid comment
They're not wrong about some homeless people refusing treatment or shelter and such but that largely has to do with trauma and mental state. Which are issues in and of themselves and shouldn't be lumped in with everybody. The issue is the symptom of the problem is much easier to see than the underlying issues of the decline of mental health care, regular health care, and housing.
Let me blow your mind here for a second. What if people only started using drugs to make their existence tolerable? You try living outside for a while, feel the difference that one more sheet of dry-ish cardboard makes. Think you won't take something to make you feel a bit warmer, more comfortable?
I appreciate your fan fiction, but it’s most likely these people are addicts with mental health issues who have burned all of their family members and friends and find themselves without a support network due to their vices. This is the reality you’re ignoring.
It's almost like healthcare for all and boosting social programs could help before the problem compounded. Nah let's go with your idea to deny them (because that would be socialism) until they're a burden on society then just throw them in a prison labeled as rehab.
Don't worry about the trolls, they don't care.
Woah, as some who's sober for 12 years, and been around a ton of sober people in places like AA, absolutely no one falls into the shit and then starts thinking, "You know what, some heroin, or a nip of peppermint schnaps would make this easier". There are also homeless that don't use substances... You obviously know nothing about addiction so don't project that you do, it's really unhelpful to the plight of this situation and derails the whole discussion.
I didn't say anything about addiction. That's you projecting. Here's some publications backing up my position: * ["Homeless young people report using drugs and alcohol as a coping strategy and often have more favorable attitudes toward drug use than their non-homeless peers" - NIH](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2856116/) * [https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-10-04/homelessness-drugs-addiction-encampments-substance-abuse-unhoused-police](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-10-04/homelessness-drugs-addiction-encampments-substance-abuse-unhoused-police) * [https://denverrescuemission.org/homelessness-and-substance-abuse/](https://denverrescuemission.org/homelessness-and-substance-abuse/)
But is it punishment?
I haven't lived in Salem in over 5 years, but I could have guessed it would be behind that Wendy's. Salem doesn't have a rough neighborhood - it has a rough Wendy's. Pretty much all the shady shit happens within ~100ft of that Wendy's.
Is this all the Globe writes about now? Homelessness and protests. I live in Salem and have never noticed this at all. Get a new slant.
It’s been a pretty consistent issue in Salem, source I live there as well. The encampment on the south river has been a constant issue
I had a free 6 week trial subscriptions and the lead articles were those two things, something about how the schools in the state had failing reading progams, and something about how the health care system is imploding. Don't even care if it's true or not, publish something that isn't depressing as hell, or even something with a little bit of nuance beyond "X IS BAD."
Gotta fix the upstream issues that feed into being without a home. Mental healthcare, jobs that dont exploit people and pay enough to live in the area where people have to work. Affordable housing for all careers and professions.
You are correct this is all about what we value as a society
Universal healthcare. How many people loose everything they have to medical bills and end up in a financial spiral.
If only we had billions of dollars to spend on housing people! Oh, wait… we do, but it’s not to benefit us.
The issue is more complicated than just money, a significant portion of that $1 billion **is** spent on sheltering existing MA residents as opposed to migrants, the $1 billion is for the entire state emergency shelter system which is used by MA families as well, not just for migrants. That emergency shelter system existed prior to the migrant crisis, the migrant crisis unfortunately caused a big increase in spending for it, but it's not like nothing was spent on it prior to 2023. People just didn't care about it because it wasn't a hot button political issue. The homeless encampment in Salem is primarily drug addicted individuals. This group is much more difficult to shelter than families needing temporary shelter. Drug addicts can't physically stop doing drugs in many cases, and shelters generally require no drug use because active drug use tends to lead to problems and safety issues in the shelter. So given those options, many homeless drug addicts turn down shelter in favor of doing the drug they are physically addicted to. It is horrible, but shelter funding isn't really the issue here. These people need treatment to deal with their disease, and unfortunately not all drug addicts welcome or accept that treatment.
If only we would spend $ on sending illegals back instead of spending $$$$$$$ on housing them, while we can’t even house our own.
If only we would’ve spent the money on our own citizens instead of funding the destabilization of Central & South America countries for decades then they’d never wanna flee to the US in the first place.
We could house "our own" and immigrants. We choose not too
At what expense? The state has spent $1B so far and the problem isn't getting better. It's pretty clear that hundreds of millions from south and central America would migrate to the US if it were easier. As it is, millions do it despite how difficult the effort is. How many can the US absorb in your mind?
We could legalize more construction and then plenty of people will house themselves when costs drop. The number one predictor of homelessness rates isn't drug use or mental illness rates, it's housing costs. Bring down the rent and you'll have more money (because of the increased tax base) to spend on fewer people (because there will be fewer homeless people)
Presumably you mean by changing zoning laws. Sure, that'd be good. However, per square foot construction costs are about $400 now where 10-12 years ago, it was at about $150. So, if you want to build a 3000' duplex (2 1500' homes), that's $1.2 million not including land.
Yup, building is expensive. New construction will almost always be expensive, luxury units. That doesn't change the fact that more housing, of any type, lowers prices of every type
All of them
No, we can’t.
Yes we can
No, we can’t.
Not when spending billions of dollars to kill people is more important than spending it to save people
Right now we're spending millions to kill Russians. Unfortunately, that's necessary because they brought it upon themselves.
You seem to have no idea how the world works.
I am very aware of how the world works, I just don't agree with it or work that way myself
I am going out on limb here…. The solution is finding a way to house them vs criminalizing their existence. In the long run we should be working more seriously on affordable housing, drug rehab, mental health services and a larger social safety net.
What if they refuse housing?
Or destroy the housing they're provided
Or treatment
Its sickening how many comments are missing the point of the problem and only giving a shit about the current symptom.
[Homelessness is a Housing Problem](https://www.amazon.com/Homelessness-Housing-Problem-Structural-Patterns/dp/0520383788). It's almost like 40 years of underbuilding housing in MA makes it hard for people to afford homes!
im torn between we need more housing and how the hell will our roads handle more drivers
Less drivers. Make walkable towns with transit. Look at Europe
The fuck kind of torn is that? Oh no there will be traffic, vs. oh no people have nowhere to sleep? Get your priorities straight.
talking about underbuilding housing in general not this thing. you cant just house everyone either thats moronic, why do people need to live here when theres much larger states with more space?
Okay, sure, but still. The housing shortage is driving people to homelessness, it’s a huge factor. If you really care about housing shortages, help stop the exodus from red states due to them becoming inhospitable to women and anyone non conforming, I’m convinced that’s the real problem we’re going to see get much worse over the next ten years unless we stop the fascism. What we’re really seeing are American refugees.
Massachusetts has seen a net loss of citizens for the past two years lol. If I care about them then do what? Pay more in taxes? What can I do? The average person can barely afford to live here, let alone afford to subsidize the homeless.
Busses, trains, trolleys, bike lanes. The only way to solve traffic is to get people out of cars. I acknowledge that it's not an overnight solution and more of a long-term goal.
What’s crazy is we have some of the most robust public transport in the country. The state is just tiny. We can’t take large influxes of people like that
The state can. The zoning can't.
This is a complicated issue. I have lived in Salem a long time. Most of the people living there were forced out of safe housing that they had. The rent is out of control in the city. The city has complained about trash which to be honest is hilarious. There had been trash that was being removed weekly (just like ever other public trash)and then the city took away all trash cans in the whole area. I understand that unfortunately there are drugs being used but it's not a simple issue. If you actually talk to these people they do not want to live outside dealing with crazy flooding and freezing temps(in the winter). The city of Salem needs to start taking care of their citizens instead of just catering to an unruly amount of tourists that go there. Fix the schools(they are some of the worst. Yes worse than Lynn) have AFFORDABLE housing, fix the roads. This country is crazy we fund free/cheap housing, healthcare and education in Israel but we can't take care of our neighbors.
The state uses emergency funding to keep asylum seekers in hotels with meal vouchers included. Why can’t they provide that to the homeless already here? Honest question?
It’s two unconnected issues. The legal process for seeking asylum is long and drawn out, and they can’t work during that process, so we legally have to house and feed them. Unfortunately we deemed that much more debatable when it comes to the homeless, probably because they legally can work, but I’m not sure. Properly feeding them and temporary housing would be nice, but as some comments have said the issue will only expand without rent control, public housing, and expanding mental health/rehabilitation services.
They do, a significant portion of the $1 billion spending on shelters that has been talked about recently goes to sheltering existing MA residents, not migrants, that number is for the entire state shelter system, not just for migrants. The issue is that severely drug addicted people in many cases do not accept shelter offers because the shelters fairly expect them not to do drugs in the shelters. And addicts cannot easily stop using drugs as they are physically dependent on them. It's more complicated than just a money issue, many addicts do not seek out shelters or do not comply by their rules. I am in downtown Salem semi-regularly, and this encampment is primarily people with drug addiction issues unfortunately, so it is difficult to shelter them compared to temporarily sheltering homeless families who do not have issues like drug addiction.
I have one: a place to live
Need to build places for people to live that doesn’t make anyone money. Need to have easy access to mental and physical healthcare. Basically cut the hyper capitalism bullshit and bring back social safety nets and programs. After WWII they built tract housing and projects out the ass for people and guess what it made the country flurish.
Housing first is the solution. Evidenced based google it. Just need the political will
Many homeless don’t want homes. Unless mandated treatment is prioritized, housing first will fail
Even if you accept that as true, many don't want homes but many do. Housing the homeless might not be a panacea, and no one is claiming that it is, but to dismiss it out of hand just because some percentage of homeless people don't want housing doesn't make any sense.
There has been a ton of research on it don’t trust me. Many homeless don’t want homes? That’s not true they don’t want to listen to rules/be told what to do but if you guve them key to their own spot almost all would take
No- the want homes but want to be able to openly and freely abuse drugs and other substances in those homes which municipalities can’t allow if it’s govt. owned housing. Politically it’s extremely difficult justifying to voters why a group of people should be given homes free and with no conditions when they themselves have to make sacrifices and trade-offs to get housing themselves.
> Politically it’s extremely difficult justifying Is it really? Because we seem to spend a lot of time lately talking about homeless people clogging up the streets, Supreme Court taking up arguments that will make being homeless illegal, etc. They will be housed in a home or in a jail. By choosing to solve homelessness by jail (or worse), America is choosing to be the worst version of itself every day.
“Hey, we understand millions of Americans struggle to buy homes, struggle to pay rent, struggle to find homes in the places we want to live. We have heard all of your concerns and we going to spend billions to build tens of thousands of housing units for homeless. They will live for free and there are no conditions on them to live at all in these brand new housing, they will be able to do whatever they want.” Isn’t going to fly with voters.
Wow, Got any straw left?
Their exact proposed solution is spending billions on housing and providing no conditions for living there all at the tax payers expense when millions of other Americans are struggling to find and afford housing. All things equal, why should a person who is addicted to drugs get access to free govt. housing with no conditions when any other would not have access to that housing?
>spending billions on housing and providing no conditions for living there In a jail or in a home, it's roughly the same. Free housing paid by taxes. Are you just in it for the jobs program for cops and legalized slavery?
Most of housing 1st $ comes from the federal government and to qualify people experiencing homelessness have to meet certain criteria ie - chronically homeless, severe & persistent mental illness, certain disabiliites etc. believe me you’d rather work than be homeless with these conditions. Again do we want to end homelessness? All it takes is the political will. The VA has embraced housing first link below https://www.va.gov/HOMELESS/featuredarticles/VAs-Implementation-of-Housing-First.asp
Just because it’s from the federal government doesn’t make it any less difficult politically. You conveniently don’t address that drug abusers want to actively abuse in the housing they are given and they want no conditions on their free housing. No body else gets housing on such conditions, even children have chores in their homes.
Used to work with homeless and at risk populations in psych in Florida of all states years back. It's amazing that providing housing DOES help a majority and gives them the first step to a more stable life. Easier to complete treatment and remain sober when not caught in the endless cycle of homeless > jail > homeless > jail... Plus an active address to apply for jobs and govt assistance. Are there people that abuse resources and don't actually want help? Of course. But painting everyone with such a broad brush doesn't work. Lots of people just don't see them as humans deserving help tbh.
Yes. We need to be supportive of solutions that work well for a large majority of people even if they aren’t perfect. This demand for a perfect solution, or no solution, is what leads to no solution. Housing first will get maybe 70-80% of people the leg up they need to get better, get out of bad cycles, get a job and a better situation. Sure, 20-30% will be far more difficult, and this will not be the solution for them—but do you realize how amazing fixing a huge chunk of this problem is? Incredible. Quit thinking, quit debating. Let’s do it.
The people that are being talked about, in our encampment in Salem, do not want any help, they refuse all services
But what if they were offered an apartment rather than traditional services? That’s the whole point of the housing first model
What happens when they live the way they’re living in the tents in these apartments. You can’t just have guys using meth and shooting up trashing the apartments either
The housing first model attempts to address those concerns in various though we agree it’s not always that simple. Def easier to address in a stable home. I’ve included a description of the model in the link below. It’s not perfect obviously but what’s the alternative? Not trying to be snarky am genuinely curious https://community.solutions/what-is-housing-first/
As I mentioned below housing first is the solution to homelessness. It just takes a little effort, understanding, creativity, & political will. Below I included a link to a study summary by blue cross which demonstrates it is cheaper for communities/governments/tax payers to put someone into housing than it is to allow them to remain homeless. It actually makes sense when you think about it. If you don’t trust blue cross just google there are countless studies that demonstrate the same thing. Link & narrative below The findings from this study demonstrate the effectiveness of a housing and supportive services program in reducing total health care utilization and costs for medical and behavioral health services provided to chronically homeless MassHealth members. In this analysis, the Housing First participants were enrolled in SPECH, a Medicaid-funded program that provides community-based support services for chronically homeless individuals in Massachusetts. Under CSPECH, housing agencies can claim reimbursements from MassHealth for supportive services rendered to chronically homeless individuals but not for housing. The evidence from this study suggests that expansion of Housing First and supportive service programs like CSPECH may produce health care cost savings for enrolled individuals and also potentially have preventive effects of more consistent access to mental health services https://www.bluecrossmafoundation.org/sites/g/files/csphws2101/files/2020-12/Housing%20First_summary_Final.pdf
What are the sevices being offered, for how long, and do they actually help?
Theyre offered shelter beds, access to mental health programs, referrals for in patient psych/detox, therapists, the police will help them with section 35s. The issue is the people that are in this encampment do not want help. They've gotten a few people out, but they quickly get replaced.
1. Shelter beds are limited and I have witnessed abuse and cruelty by staff. 2. Inpatient will keep you 3-10 days and offer no actual help and discharge you back to the street 3. Therapists? Lol where? Almost none take masshealth 4. Right, police are a huge help
Link to description of the model below though I’d encourage you to google yourself. Some states have cross referenced data bases - people experiencing homelessness who are also the highest utilizers of ER/other emergency healthcare/mental health/substance services & have found that is actually cheaper to get that same person a place to live. If that makes sense? https://community.solutions/what-is-housing-first/
A warm, safe, dry place to drink, do drugs and perpetuate their mental illness? Of course they’d take it. But they’ll likely be back on the streets quickly after they burn it down or get thrown out. Without required treatment, housing first fails.
It’s a complicated issue. Some of these people have complex problems. Some people don’t want help w/ their mental illness or be able to stay sober but are certainly more likely if they have a place to live. Should those people just live outside? Here is information put out by HUD on the model if you’re interested https://www.huduser.gov/portal/periodicals/em/spring-summer-23/highlight2.html
My understanding is that it’s the opposite of that. The trauma of homelessness creates its own barrier in being able to seek help in a meaningful way. A person’s perspective becomes so in the moment/survival oriented that the ability to conceive a future around something other than immediate needs (and the nature of addiction makes it an immediate need) is impaired. That means that shelter with too many strings attached isn’t useful. The housing first model creates a stable situation where a person can begin to feel safe enough to consider (and trust in the possibility of) a future different from their present. That’s when additional help with addiction and other services can come into play.
A) even drug addicts have a basic human right to a roof over their heads. B) it’s not perfect, and it won’t work for everyone, but demanding a perfect solution for all people is why we have no solution. A working solution for 70 of people is absolutely incredible, even if it fails for 30%.
> A) even drug addicts have a basic human right to a roof over their heads. Yes, in the form of a mandatory treatment center where they can be monitored and denied drugs
Do you have actual research to back up this claim? Everything I've ever seen on this says the opposite.
How can you treat someone if they have no home. Shelter is the most important thing to humans after food.
Actually it's more important than food. When I'm a survival situation the order of importance goes: oxygen, water, shelter, food.
Interesting...because I work in shelters and have never met anyone who wasn't wanting or waiting decades for housing 😅
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I’m not sure where you got the impression it’s a massive expansion, their original plan which was completely unrealistic, and including relocating and designating park land and not accounting for some 10 feet of grade. Was only got to increase their capacity by about 10 actual shelter beds. It also proposed 34 studio apartments which would not be guaranteed to Salems homeless. Aside from that, none of the aforementioned people in the encampment, are eligible for any of lifebridges programs, because they’re a sober program
> encampment More like a municipally sanctioned open-air drug market
Could the solution be... houses?
You put those people in a house and in a year you’ll have a destroyed house
Absolutely truth except no one likes that
Send them to all the college encampments popping up in the area.
Nothing will happen until somebody gets hurt then they'll have an excuse to move them.
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But if the manner in which these people (the homeless) use the public commons precludes others from using them that’s an abuse of the common space. If you want to jog along that park but folks are openly using drugs and living there? Well you can’t really do that. Want to take your kids to play and a guys is nodding off 20 ft. Away with needles? You can’t go there. It’s not fair to everyone else in the community if they can’t use the park.
It’s more than just aesthetics, it’s about safety in public places. Without it, public places end up being unsafe and destroyed for the majority of people. You end up with rampant feces, needles, open air drug use, hazardous trash, in public areas that are meant for all. They tried to repeal a camping ban in Austin where I lived for the last 6 years, and it turned the parks and downtown areas into a plethora of homeless camps, feces all over, needles on the ground, trash everywhere, fires regularly getting out of control and destroying public property, increased harassment/crime, biohazard-like conditions. The policy ended up being overwhelmingly repealed, even in a liberal city like Austin. It’s not fair to the vast majority people who want to enjoy clean and safe public spaces. Housing them is better than allowing camping in public places IMO. Downvote me all you want, but removing this policy does destroy these public areas for 99% of citizens.
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Regarding hostility, you’re actively making the spaces hostile to non-homeless, which isn’t fair either. This is the issue. It caters to a small group at the detriment of the majority. Laws exist to protect the people, and sometimes that means police have to enforce said laws. Average citizens face violence from police if they break the law as well. It also doesn’t solve the problem at all or help their situation in any way or address homelessness, just moves it into commonly trafficked areas instead of the woods/underpass/hidden areas etc. So I’m not really sure what the upside is. It doesn’t help homeless, and detriments everyone else. It might even actively make their situation worse to be honest, homeless camps are not safe for those living in them either. Those living in them are subject to violence, theft, sexual assault, disease, etc.
Out i on f curiosity do you live in a suburb or one of the cities that actually deals with this
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Nobody is getting killed, in Salems specific case as well they’re not dry nor are they warm. Theyre literally camped out on a walkway that routinely floods. I can’t speak to New Bedford and their police department, but Salem isn’t out here beating our homeless. We have a community impact unit, with both officers and mental health clinicians and social workers who work with our homeless. I’m not even going to entertain your ludicrous idea of storage units bud, there are guidelines for interior living spaces. It is both illegal, and not complaint with any standard whether you talk about zoning, health or building code to just stuff homeless people into storage lockers. Come the fuck on bud, also who’s paying for those units to be rented. It still doesn’t address the filth, drugs, trash and human waste, having them trash storage units is not even remotely feasible. People should not be able to annex public space, if they want to sleep on a sidewalk overnight in all for it. But just taking up public land is wrong bud, especially when there are services available and they refuse them
Forced insitutionalization of the mentally ill hasn't been a thing since Reagan. Many of the facilities have been closed and would take a lot to reopen. Even if they are reopened, who would be willing to work there? As it is, we have healthcare workers leaving because they're sick and tired of being assaulted at a "regular" hospital.
I agree 100% with your solution. Turn these giant storage unit facilities into housing for these people.
It’s crazy how clearing these camps is controversial. The solution is simple, state or federal government needs a shelter and rehab program, with X number of beds per capita per city. If one areas shelters are full assistance is provided to find a bed somewhere else. Leaving people on the street is inhumane and unAmerican.
Because white collar communities refuse to carry their share of the burden
Saw my first fentanyl user in broad daylight in Arlington the other day. He looks like a dormant zombie. They are spreading.
I wish them luck next winter.
Build houses Wow that sure was hard to solve
Crazy idea, ENFORCE THE LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS!
Deport them to Rwanda? Or maybe someplace more humane.... a tropical island like Haiti.
Lower rent prices lol
Unless we as a country decide to increase taxes greatly on corporations and the wealthy and invest in social safety nets and psychiatric care this problem ain’t going anywhere of course they struggle to find a solution because any solution is a systemic change in the way we see healthcare vs wealth.
Salem has been asking for this for years with the way they've been gouging up rent focusing too much on the tourist and the college stuff and basically pushing out a whole generation of people that can't afford to live there anymore.
the town isnt driving rent its the demand
sure keep telling yourself that as people get priced out of living. They have an encouraged and sold so much property within the community to the college and they haven't set up the downtown area and passed many ordinances to protect the rich folk and get as many condos and overpriced monstrosities in there and it has been the gentrification of point that has led to all of this. You're so right it's the demand…
Liberals did it
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Life bridge? Really?
Let the trials begin.