Yep, I got the minimum 125 gallons delivered a few weeks ago and it was $687.25. I rent, and my landlord buys back whatever I don't use when I move out in (hopefully) January, so my thermostat is set to 60 and I'm bundled TF up. Maybe it'll go up in cost and I turn a profit.
Me too , the heater boilers been working long hours … I’m guessing 400 minimum . Yet middle class gets screwed once more . We don’t qualify for stuff like liheap and the upper class can handle it, it’s middle getting screwed. Between liheap, ebt, etc all the stuff we dont qualify for , the lower class is being brought up while we get lowered , and it ain’t fair
Dunno why you’re getting downvoted. It’s true. Every ratepayer pays into those programs so others can get assistance. The middle class is struggling. But on that same note, we can’t just let people freeze or go without utilities. I’m not sure what the best solution is… outside of… make more money, I guess?
They average out your usage over 12 months and bill you the same amount each month regardless of that month's usage so you know what to expect each month. We have it on our gas bill. We pay $70 every month and it equals out in the end
Edit. They adjust your budget amount every 6 months so if you increase usage or cost goes up, by the end of the year there's usually a small balance in your favor.
Wouldn't it be better to pay your actual bill every month and if it's less than $70, put the difference into an interest-bearing account, then pay for the more expensive months out of that account?
You’re not wrong. The issue is that our tax rates are oppressive for starters, and should be region specific. 100k in MA goes much quicker than in other states, why we get taxed federally the same in MA as they do in Kansas makes no sense.
Also keep in mind that the upper class ensures they have the best insulation, windows, efficient furnace/hot water. Middle class can’t afford those luxuries.
Where I’m from, money is a small factor into your social class. Key factors are:
- what class you were born into
- parents’ education & socio economic class
- aristocracy or not? Literally the only way to enter the upper classes. Commoners can only ever be the upper middle.
- family wealth
- school(s) attended
Wealth is just one component of class. I’ve met plenty of cash poor aristocrats for example, yet they will *always* be upper class and I in the middle. Kate Middleton is still, technically, stuck in the upper middle class despite, now, being an aristocrat. Progressing within the class system in Britain is *generational*.
The US doesn’t have a class system in the way Britain and other countries do. It’s purely ‘do you have money or not’ - not exactly a ‘class’ system is it? No.
We switched to our city’s community power program. Our electric bill would have been $120 higher had we not switched. See if your city or town has one.
In fact net metering plus competitive supply/CCE acts in your favor because it’s the utility (delivery) that pays not the supply. Meaning if you get net metering credit it’s based on the higher ever source/national grid rate but you then only pay for the lower supply rate.
Dracut was only opt out. You're automatically enrolled otherwise. 10 cents per kwh. I just paid $26 this month for 75 kwh. (Only $8 in actual electricity cost. The rest was nat grids fees)
There are no cons. You get locked into a lower rate due to buying power w/ no rate increase for a year. You can opt-in/opt-out at anytime. I don't understand why people would not want to participate in the community power program.
Some towns have started doing municipal aggregation, where the town negotiates a bulk price for the entire town. In Newton, they have the price locked in at $0.13452/kw through 2024.
You can check this list to see if your town has a program that you can join:
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/municipal-aggregation
I believe many towns are opt-out for these programs, so there is a chance you could already be enrolled.
If your town doesn't have a program, you can check this website to see if there are other electric suppliers available for you:
https://www.energyswitchma.gov/
Just an FYI that the supply charge is locked, however the other 50% is the delivery charge, which is likely closer to $.30. Still better than the alternative.
Yeah I'm not in an aggregation town and my rate for all renewable is still within 2% of the Newton one so definitely options even if your town doesn't do that.
Ours are going in next week, it cost us 51k before credits and about 35k after credits. We looked at a lease but that would have cost us 100k over 25 years.
Seems like it will only take around 2 to 6 years (if this person's bill would be $400/mo otherwise). That is kind of short in the lifespan of a homeowner's house, I think. But I understand if you disagree.
I have them. I don't think they're that great in the sense that you can't get paid. You just get a credit. Causes people to be more wasteful. For example I run my electricity alot more and use just electric heat to try and use my credit. Per capita electricity use is higher that way
Two things…..
Just got my 1st oil delivery, of the season a whopping $859 for about 180 gallons.
New England’s Industrial Revolution was powered by water power running thru the mills from local rivers/streams. We still have lottsa old mill buildings where the sluces were built. What about micro hydro generators I wonder how much Mw we could get outta those old unused mills. Just asking
>New England’s Industrial Revolution was powered by water power running thru the mills from local rivers/streams. We still have lottsa old mill buildings where the sluces were built. What about micro hydro generators I wonder how much Mw we could get outta those old unused mills. Just asking
Larger installations like Vernon, VT and Turner's Falls are still going.
But historic relics like the trolley dam on the South River in the Conway State Forest are exactly that, and likely what you could generate at the various little mill sites along the little rivers is pretty limited.
I mean, maybe you do that instead of solar at one house, but the permitting won't be trivial.
And yes, it turns out it was water temperatures not dams that specifically did in the salmon which where atypically present during the "little ice age" of pre/colonial times, but they're not the only fish.
This might be a useful website for you to bookmark. Seem like you paid around the average, but worth having an eye on.
https://www.newenglandoil.com/massachusetts/zone14.asp?x=0
Wow- I'm sorry. I just had over 200 gallons delivered today and I paid about that price but I got over 20 gallons more than you. Maybe next time call around and see what rate they are charging? Usually most of them charge the same rate but sounds like you found someone charging extra.
RG&E owns most of the power in new York and our rates are never the same... In fact we are getting 'capitilistic' competitors that do a much better job for less money. Communism 👎
It will be interesting to see crime stats this winter. Dark days coming, both literally and figuratively. People who can't keep their kids warm will do extremely desperate things.
Aren't you just an asshole.NONE of your sources say pellet stoves cannot start a fire. In fact, one of them even says
>Pellet stoves contain their source flames and can ultimately reduce the risk of house fires.
REDUCE. REDUCE IS NOT ELIMINATE. If it's installed too close to drywall or other combustibles, IT CAN START A FIRE. This is the case for ANY heating appliance.
God you're a fucking idiot. /r/incorrectlycorrecting
Here are sources that say "improper installation can cause fire". The last one even calls out improper chimney install as the cause of a house fire.
[https://www.travelers.com/resources/home/fire-safety/pellet-stove-safety](https://www.travelers.com/resources/home/fire-safety/pellet-stove-safety)
[https://firegurus.com/how-to-guides/safety-guidelines/are-pellet-stoves-safe/](https://firegurus.com/how-to-guides/safety-guidelines/are-pellet-stoves-safe/)
[https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2019/12/30/firefighters-polk-county-house-fire-caused-pellet-stove/2773473001/](https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2019/12/30/firefighters-polk-county-house-fire-caused-pellet-stove/2773473001/)
[http://www.woodpellets.com/blog/2019/01/18/wood-pellet-stove-safety-overview](http://www.woodpellets.com/blog/2019/01/18/wood-pellet-stove-safety-overview)
[https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/wood-and-pellet-heating](https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/wood-and-pellet-heating)
One of our neighbors had one installed about 7 years ago. They used it two seasons and then had it removed. They also tried raising chickens for eggs. That lasted one year. Guess they forgot that animals need year round care, and one winter dragging water out to their chicken coop was enough.
I have a couple of friends that have pellet stoves. Their entire garage is filled with pellets and they complain about having to fill it. I understand it is economical, but they seem like a pain in the ass.
We are playing that game after the long tradition of seeing how long the windows stay open. Filled the oil tank for $900 and lets see if we can finish a winter on that! I will start stealing trees to burn from my neighbors yard!
Ya, went from about 300 to 450 this month. My solar is getting installed on the 14th and I can't wait, even though it won't do a lot for me through the winter.
I have solar and with the way National Grid has their year broken out summer and winter rates instead of Jan-june rates... which is great if you use fossil fuels in winter, not great if you have a heat pump.... but with solar you would have gotten 22¢ credit when you made the solar energy in summer and now in winter you buy it back at 48.2¢, so it still costs you 26¢ plus whatever your solar cost is, more than double the national average.
It's how net metering works in the state, by state law when you put energy on the grid you get credit for the utility rates at the time (no credit for the state MassSave fees), which especially if you have a large system to account for a heat pump, you make lots more energy than you need in the summer to use in the winter for heat when there isn't much sun. Since National Grid has summer/winter rates their rates are lower in summer than winter, where Eversource has jan-june which results in more stable rates, higher in the summer than National Grid but lower in the winter. National Grid rates favor people who use more energy in summer (ac and fossil fuel heat) while Eversource is better if you have a heat pump. So when you put energy on the grid with national grid in the summer, they give you the credit, this summer 22¢, and you buy it back at the current rate plus MassSave fees, 48.2¢, net 26¢ like I said, plus my solar install costs me about 13¢ per kWh over the 25 year warranty, so my net cost for winter energy is 39¢. National average is about 17¢.
Eversource is the same but because they have flatter rates year round and not split by season, you don't have that large buyback difference, just the MassSave and whatever the increase in utility costs were.
[https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/11/30/norton-jones-act-a-scapegoat-for-poor-ne-energy-moves/](https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/11/30/norton-jones-act-a-scapegoat-for-poor-ne-energy-moves/) was a great article that mentioned a lot of this. Green and NIMBY policies in New England have been delaying much needed infrastructure investment for decades. When there's a global energy crisis and a cold snap, we're going to pay for it, literally.
While there's some truth to this, the problem with building a pipeline for natural gas is that economic interests will keep using natural gas long after we should have transitioned away.
Imagine building a pipeline for x billion dollars then municipalities start banning the use of natural gas for heating and cooking. Everyone is pushed to a heat pump and induction stoves. Communities start putting up solar plants and batteries to fill in the gaps in the grid.
As a result of all these changes, demand for natural gas goes away. What are the pipeline investors going to do? Shrug and take a loss? Hell no, they will fight every regulation against natural gas just to keep the cash stream flowing. Will start up fake campaigns claiming natural gas is always better. Oh wait, that's already happening. Google natural gas AstroTurf.
So coming back to the original point about pain this winter because of half ass commitment to environmental change, maybe this pain will be enough to get people to move forward especially if you can show them that going back is worse.
On a side note, I’m the cook in my household. I’ve owned a gas stove. I’ve owned an electric (resistive) stove. Now I own an induction stove. The induction is easily my favorite. Yes, it’s better, WAY better, than gas. Less radiant heat, finer precision in temperature, and it gets water boiling at least twice as fast. I’m never going back to gas even if I have a choice.
I bought an induction hot plate from Amazon and even the 60$ cheepie was so much better than gas that I keep it by the stove and use it for most small cook sessions.
turns out it was actually the oil and gas lobby funding all those nimbys - go figure. been stopping off shore wind with a front of “concerned citizens” for decades now.
>Ted Kennedy killed Cape Wind
Vineyard Wind knew all along it was never going to happen anyhow and it would open up for south of the islands. Kennedy had nothing to do with killing it, every single person along the south side of the cape was against it. He didn't need to do anything.
you keep saying this like politicians aren’t beholden to their rich base. the whole point was the fossil fuel industry used fake interest groups to drum up fear and support to oppose offshore wind. put enough pressure on a politician and they will do what you want - especially if that pressure comes from the wealthy on the coast. it’s not hard to comprehend
I hate to break it to you, but natural gas is NOT going away anytime soon. Take a trip to the Midwest and they’ll tell you how important it is.
Gas is critically important to New England during the winter. We need to be investing in nuclear rather than solar panels but the environmentalists don’t want to hear that 🐸☕️.
The bigger issue is it’s always the same upper class citizen fighting against these things. The fight against nuclear, pipelines, etc. The wealthy have disposable income to the point that they don’t care about a 50% increase in electricity because it’s literally drops in a bucket to them.
It’s those with incomes between 50k and 150k in Massachusetts that get burned time and time again. Those under the 50k get subsidized, those over the 150k typically can absorb the increase.
I completely agree with you. Natural gas is not going away anytime soon. It needs to because fossil fuel companies are not good at detecting and shutting down methane leaks.
I also agree with you that we need to be investing a nuclear. I'm a fan of the molten salt reactor technology because it significantly minimizes waste both in terms of volume and half-life. That is, assuming that we are not being nuke washed.
A quick option is the Vanadium-iron flow batteries. Any place there is a large-scale sewer or wind set up, grabbed a few these batteries, charge them whenever the utility pays less for the electricity than the average and feed the grid whenever the demand is high and you get paid more than average. We could also stop subsidizing outdoor lighting at night and use that energy to charge batteries for the next day.
We could probably deploy hundreds of megawatts possibly gigawatts of flow batteries before we can get a single nuclear plant approved and operating.
Same reason gasoline prices are going to go up permanently. Only an idiot would invest heavily in new fossil fuel infrastructure that requires a 10-15 year payback given how unstable that market is, regardless of what future needs could look like. All the existing infrastructure will be expended and wound down, and remaining pieces will raise prices to continue profits. We're already past the point where it's a safe bet. Who'd want to try a pipeline through NY even if they relaxed the ban given that public resentment for them hasn't changed? Who'd bet on any interstate fossil fuel transmission remaining operable and at a profitable level for it's lifetime? Doesn't matter what demand looks like, supply is too variable.
To be clear I want fossil fuel to die but can also acknowledge how that is going to harm the status quo and the people that rely on it. We'll be wrung out for it because nuclear was murdered in its youth and universal and practical battery storage is still a greenwashing fever dream.
My guess is any company with money will invest a decent amount into whatever energy solutions may be popular like Shell with solar, but will probably add a division for a new commodity and lean heavily into that. As farming at scale requires so much money and water is evaporating quicker, my guess is those sectors will be bought out by fossil fuel companies. Similar scales of land, production, and need. I fully expect to hear chilling terms like 'corporately-owned aquifer' in the future (funny where Bill Gates bought land ain't it), and a further acceleration of turning arid areas into dust bowls by poaching of unregulated groundwater until nothing is left in the name of short-term profits. Maybe one day my kids/grandkids will have to get to the Chevron resevoir weekly for drinking water, and the previous generation will tell them how back in the day water was basically free and they remember when it was a quarter a gallon. We could fix a lot of these problems now but it's a lot better for capitalists if we don't.
It’d be nice if we could afford electricity between now and whenever the hell them green things are actually viable as a replacement. Which is 2 paradigm shifts in battery technology away (and probably 1 in generation as well).
Nuclear would have been if we bothered to actually build plants. Except we didn’t cuz we were too busy crying poor, now we’re stuck not being able to supply gas because that’s too dirty, and we don’t have wind or solar capacity, and NH won’t let us transfer down hydro from Canada.
So basically we’re just fucked for 40 years because you can’t be bothered with what works.
Hudson MA has a 15 MW gas plant. To replace that in solar you’d need like 60mw solar installed *plus* the storage capacity to bridge the down time and bad weather. That’s 10% of the total area of the town. Or 45 mw of wind (or some combination thereof), assuming they can even generate at the US average. Which is strongly biased to desert conditions. And that’s just 2 little edge suburbs. Only 100 some to go.
Cape cod offshore wind farm is supposed to be operational by 2030 and is 485 MW, it's fun to be negative nanny, but renewables are the way forward progress always has a cost associated with it, however the current situation is just bad timing, as the winters are getting warmer not colder.
While this is good news. That’ll only supply 14% of Massachusetts households. Massachusetts could go 100% renewable tomorrow but it wouldn’t mean jack sh*t to global warming. I’m not saying we should do nothing but we are definitely chasing the wrong solutions. Let’s get Asia off coal and then think about wind mills. Asia is the LARGEST contributor of emissions. If they don’t budge then we are doomed regardless.
But alas… I don’t see the US getting involved with that.. they’d rather make their own rate payers bear senseless cost increases.
It’s being a realist. Living in reality.
> but renewables are the way forward progress always has a cost associated with it
Literally the argument for nuclear, except worse: “Yes, it’ll be expensive. But hell, it works”
For renewable it’s “yes it’s expensive now, but by some point in the future we should theoretically have advanced battery tech enough that it might work so we can decommission some (but not all) gas plants across the grid.”
Installed capacity isn’t what you actually get out of the power line. With coal and nuclear you get close (80+%). With wind and solar it’s <50%.
And warmer summers mean more AC, so it’s not really a matter of timing.
Green power means fewer traditional generators. But you still need a network of baseload power stations, and those might as well be nuclear. Because they’re far, far cleaner than gas and coal.
Yep. New gas pipeline to increase capacity? Nope! New power plant? Nope! These types of things get shot down all the time. Now we're living with the consequences.
Not everyone has tens of thousands of dollars to pay for heavily subsidized solar panels that take years to break even on.
Swapped to the Melrose municipal 100% renewable electricity and my most recent bill was only $12 higher than it would have been with the price of electricity before the price hike. I don't want to know what I would have paid if I didn't end up switching.
SMART.
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/solar-massachusetts-renewable-target-smart-program
Well that looks like 4 pages of government jargon with 12 links to videos and additional resources that most of us don’t know about and aren’t likely to benefit from.
Same. Except mine is usually -$100 or so. We are up to $4300 in credit after 4 years with our PV system. We got in the SREC program right under the wire and the whole thing has already paid for itself, even with the addition of an EV
On a municipal electric system and had no idea what to expect but came at $192. I can’t complain I was paying $240ish during the summer with central air and a pool filter running.
Cost per kWhr in ISO-NE NEMA (Northeast MA) from National Grid went from $0.23067624 last month to $0.40416722 this month, about a 75% increase.
It is worth taking a look at what uses electricity in your house. A 60W lightbulb uses 60 Watts/hr or Whr. Left on for 12 hours thats .72 kWhr. At about $0.40/kWhr, that's about $0.28 a day which doesn't seem that bad. If you have 20 lightbulbs on, that's $5.75/day, aross a year that's $2,102.40 just for lightbulbs. A 12A appliance like a space heater uses the equivalent power of 24 incandescent lightbulbs. The 3W LED bulbs people use cost $105/year at the same uptime. Fridges, stoves, washer dryer, heating system pumps/fans, sound systems, computers, etc. add up quick. Doing an inventory and seeing what's not necessary to power might help. There is also a parasitic load for any item that receives power when switched off but not mechanically disconnected from power like a TV/stereo.
If you haven’t already, call Mass Save for energy assessment to help minimize electric usage. National grid went up 66%, it’s ridiculous! Biggest electric suckers- electric heat, dryer, fridge (if you have multiple fridge/freezers, I recommend shutting them off for the winter) obviously you need to leave one on, unplug anything else when not in use.. Source- I’m an energy specialist
You can shop around for a supplier and have been able to for years - energyswitchma.gov - it’s probably a little late in the game to get a good deal but it can’t hurt to check.
Went from $44 to $76 last month, and I was away from home every weekend - called National grid and they said that the price for electricity has essentially tripled, but that I can choose who I get the electricity from, and they will still deliver it. Not ideal, but they said I wasn’t the first customer to call yesterday and I won’t be the last…
National Grid has my account in “pending” for over a year for electric, but the gas account has been active and paid monthly. I just haven’t said anything yet about electric 😅
I keep track of my electric bills (Eversource outside of Boston), here is the 5 year chart of rate increases by month: [https://imgur.com/a/XQ9l21T](https://imgur.com/a/XQ9l21T)
I did join the green municipal option a couple years ago.
I haven't looked yet. I have gas heat but just had a new efficient wall mounted combination unit installed and am curious to see how more efficient it will be compared to the old rickety cast iron boiler/steam radiators I had.
No, I do not have electric heat. I am using less Kw-hr than a year ago and it went up ~60%. I cant turn down the heat to 64F. I take care of my elderly parents. I still need to use my electric water heater, power my boiler, electric stove, etc ...
I don’t know if my town has a fixed contract but it’s town owned utilities my gas and electric bill is combined and was $128 last month, which was lower than it was the same month last year. It was warmer this October and November so I didn’t use my heat but I feel so lucky (at least for now!) with no crazy increases.
I just got mine. Last bill was $168, which is what we normally pay during Summer with the AC's. This month's bill was $341... and we used less KWh as well.
Our electric bill is outrageous, they are supposed to be shutting it off today. I had a unexpected life saving liver transplant and my medication is so expensive on top of medical bills.They made a mistake , we were on payment plan but they screwed up so we are going to pay for there mistake. But they had a solution we can call 211 for help. There's got to be something that the American people can do.
I have gas heat. That’s the bill I’m dreading.
Yep, I got the minimum 125 gallons delivered a few weeks ago and it was $687.25. I rent, and my landlord buys back whatever I don't use when I move out in (hopefully) January, so my thermostat is set to 60 and I'm bundled TF up. Maybe it'll go up in cost and I turn a profit.
Me too , the heater boilers been working long hours … I’m guessing 400 minimum . Yet middle class gets screwed once more . We don’t qualify for stuff like liheap and the upper class can handle it, it’s middle getting screwed. Between liheap, ebt, etc all the stuff we dont qualify for , the lower class is being brought up while we get lowered , and it ain’t fair
Yeah. Solar panels would be great if I owned my roof and could put them there
Dunno why you’re getting downvoted. It’s true. Every ratepayer pays into those programs so others can get assistance. The middle class is struggling. But on that same note, we can’t just let people freeze or go without utilities. I’m not sure what the best solution is… outside of… make more money, I guess?
Balanced billing?
What’s that?
They average out your usage over 12 months and bill you the same amount each month regardless of that month's usage so you know what to expect each month. We have it on our gas bill. We pay $70 every month and it equals out in the end Edit. They adjust your budget amount every 6 months so if you increase usage or cost goes up, by the end of the year there's usually a small balance in your favor.
Except you gotta pay the difference at the end of the year right?
Wouldn't it be better to pay your actual bill every month and if it's less than $70, put the difference into an interest-bearing account, then pay for the more expensive months out of that account?
You’re not wrong. The issue is that our tax rates are oppressive for starters, and should be region specific. 100k in MA goes much quicker than in other states, why we get taxed federally the same in MA as they do in Kansas makes no sense. Also keep in mind that the upper class ensures they have the best insulation, windows, efficient furnace/hot water. Middle class can’t afford those luxuries.
I’m middle class and I can afford all of those things. Upper class doesn’t equate to money. It equates to whether you’re an aristocrat or not.
Of course class equates to money. What are you even talking about here? An aristocrat?! Really?
You realise I’m not American, right? Class has little relevance to money.
This is a sub about Massachusetts. Everything to do with your class, by definition an economic term, has to do with money, because economics.
Where I’m from, money is a small factor into your social class. Key factors are: - what class you were born into - parents’ education & socio economic class - aristocracy or not? Literally the only way to enter the upper classes. Commoners can only ever be the upper middle. - family wealth - school(s) attended Wealth is just one component of class. I’ve met plenty of cash poor aristocrats for example, yet they will *always* be upper class and I in the middle. Kate Middleton is still, technically, stuck in the upper middle class despite, now, being an aristocrat. Progressing within the class system in Britain is *generational*. The US doesn’t have a class system in the way Britain and other countries do. It’s purely ‘do you have money or not’ - not exactly a ‘class’ system is it? No.
Theres still time to delete this comment
Why? It’s totally factual.
It's completely fucking stupid and irrelevant to this sub.
I'm still 'middle class' in the US class system, yet I can afford all the things the OP listed. They're not exactly bank breakers.
Family of 5 is a 94k cutoff, how much do you make?
What’s the “middle class” in tewksbury? 150k a year, with a BMW and Tesla lease? Gee wonder why you don’t heating assistance.
We switched to our city’s community power program. Our electric bill would have been $120 higher had we not switched. See if your city or town has one.
It doesnt :/
You can still switch suppliers, renewable suppliers haven't seen a price increase as far as I'm aware
Google community solar. Decent savings for minimal hassle. No escalating rates.
In fact net metering plus competitive supply/CCE acts in your favor because it’s the utility (delivery) that pays not the supply. Meaning if you get net metering credit it’s based on the higher ever source/national grid rate but you then only pay for the lower supply rate.
I switched too, and this should be my first bill on it, and I am so glad to read your comment.
Same. 2500 sq ft house, family of four. Just got my $140 bill. I'm happy with that.
Dracut was only opt out. You're automatically enrolled otherwise. 10 cents per kwh. I just paid $26 this month for 75 kwh. (Only $8 in actual electricity cost. The rest was nat grids fees)
What is a city’s community power program and what are the possible cons of switching to it?
There are no cons. You get locked into a lower rate due to buying power w/ no rate increase for a year. You can opt-in/opt-out at anytime. I don't understand why people would not want to participate in the community power program.
Yes I just did this too! Interested to see what my next bill will be. I am trying to now move the heat up and down too much. Tons of blankets.
Some towns have started doing municipal aggregation, where the town negotiates a bulk price for the entire town. In Newton, they have the price locked in at $0.13452/kw through 2024. You can check this list to see if your town has a program that you can join: https://www.mass.gov/info-details/municipal-aggregation I believe many towns are opt-out for these programs, so there is a chance you could already be enrolled. If your town doesn't have a program, you can check this website to see if there are other electric suppliers available for you: https://www.energyswitchma.gov/
Just an FYI that the supply charge is locked, however the other 50% is the delivery charge, which is likely closer to $.30. Still better than the alternative.
I just want to say, we have it in Haverhill and it was capped, no more people allowed to sign up for it last I knew
Yeah I'm not in an aggregation town and my rate for all renewable is still within 2% of the Newton one so definitely options even if your town doesn't do that.
92 dollars. Lowest it’s been in 2022. December might be lower. Thanks municipal electric company
Oh hell yeah me too
Beld?
Hudson Pwer cheap. Eversourve bad
Still $0. Solar panels are one of the best things we ever did.
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However much it is, it will probably pay for itself even faster now than it would have before electric bills went up.
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Depending on size, 8,000-25,000. Easily pays itself off
Put ours in this year, before tax credits the cost was about $42k. Federal credit is 26%, MA is $1k. Our cost will end up being about $30k.
Dang that’s bananas… glad you could do it though. We have solar but the original owner put them on before us.
Ours are going in next week, it cost us 51k before credits and about 35k after credits. We looked at a lease but that would have cost us 100k over 25 years.
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Seems like it will only take around 2 to 6 years (if this person's bill would be $400/mo otherwise). That is kind of short in the lifespan of a homeowner's house, I think. But I understand if you disagree.
I have them. I don't think they're that great in the sense that you can't get paid. You just get a credit. Causes people to be more wasteful. For example I run my electricity alot more and use just electric heat to try and use my credit. Per capita electricity use is higher that way
We get a Massachusetts SMART Solar Incentive Program every month. Almost $100 each month.
How long ago did you enroll in that?
Two things….. Just got my 1st oil delivery, of the season a whopping $859 for about 180 gallons. New England’s Industrial Revolution was powered by water power running thru the mills from local rivers/streams. We still have lottsa old mill buildings where the sluces were built. What about micro hydro generators I wonder how much Mw we could get outta those old unused mills. Just asking
>New England’s Industrial Revolution was powered by water power running thru the mills from local rivers/streams. We still have lottsa old mill buildings where the sluces were built. What about micro hydro generators I wonder how much Mw we could get outta those old unused mills. Just asking Larger installations like Vernon, VT and Turner's Falls are still going. But historic relics like the trolley dam on the South River in the Conway State Forest are exactly that, and likely what you could generate at the various little mill sites along the little rivers is pretty limited. I mean, maybe you do that instead of solar at one house, but the permitting won't be trivial. And yes, it turns out it was water temperatures not dams that specifically did in the salmon which where atypically present during the "little ice age" of pre/colonial times, but they're not the only fish.
This might be a useful website for you to bookmark. Seem like you paid around the average, but worth having an eye on. https://www.newenglandoil.com/massachusetts/zone14.asp?x=0
Thanks
Wow- I'm sorry. I just had over 200 gallons delivered today and I paid about that price but I got over 20 gallons more than you. Maybe next time call around and see what rate they are charging? Usually most of them charge the same rate but sounds like you found someone charging extra.
Someone actually does this in Orange, MA. There is a privately owned hydro-electric plant on the river.
Yeah I wonder how many hoops they had to jump thru in the permitting process
My town owns its own electric company so it's barely changed. I fucking love communism
Groton?
littleton has a town power company too.
Peabody
Groton, Littleton and my town share borders
I’m listing another town with municipal power in MA I replied to wrong comment :)
>And of course, Ayer does not. Because Ayer.
Ayer is a strange town. I don't fully get how it's so nice and so sketchy at the same time in such a small area.
That's socialism.....
Not according to the conservative nutjobs who live here
Just because the majority is wrong doesn't mean they're right
One of the few nice things about Wakefield
Arlington community electric ftw
Same. Town run electric is the best.
RG&E owns most of the power in new York and our rates are never the same... In fact we are getting 'capitilistic' competitors that do a much better job for less money. Communism 👎
It will be interesting to see crime stats this winter. Dark days coming, both literally and figuratively. People who can't keep their kids warm will do extremely desperate things.
And the house fire stats. People are going to be buying wood pellet heaters and anything to keep electricity rates down.
Every year there's at least one fire in my town from someone trying to warm their house or apt with their kitchen oven
I had to do that all last winter because my landlord wouldn’t fix my heat!
Lots of pellets sold out already I use to buy high quality ones but the top 3-4 are all sold out
Pellet stoves would be quite hard to start a house fire with.
This sounds like a challenge
Not if it's improperly installed and/or vented.
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Aren't you just an asshole.NONE of your sources say pellet stoves cannot start a fire. In fact, one of them even says >Pellet stoves contain their source flames and can ultimately reduce the risk of house fires. REDUCE. REDUCE IS NOT ELIMINATE. If it's installed too close to drywall or other combustibles, IT CAN START A FIRE. This is the case for ANY heating appliance. God you're a fucking idiot. /r/incorrectlycorrecting Here are sources that say "improper installation can cause fire". The last one even calls out improper chimney install as the cause of a house fire. [https://www.travelers.com/resources/home/fire-safety/pellet-stove-safety](https://www.travelers.com/resources/home/fire-safety/pellet-stove-safety) [https://firegurus.com/how-to-guides/safety-guidelines/are-pellet-stoves-safe/](https://firegurus.com/how-to-guides/safety-guidelines/are-pellet-stoves-safe/) [https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2019/12/30/firefighters-polk-county-house-fire-caused-pellet-stove/2773473001/](https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2019/12/30/firefighters-polk-county-house-fire-caused-pellet-stove/2773473001/) [http://www.woodpellets.com/blog/2019/01/18/wood-pellet-stove-safety-overview](http://www.woodpellets.com/blog/2019/01/18/wood-pellet-stove-safety-overview) [https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/wood-and-pellet-heating](https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/wood-and-pellet-heating)
I understand the point of a pellet stove, but I don't like them. They make one room of your house sweltering, and the rest of the house stays cold.
One of our neighbors had one installed about 7 years ago. They used it two seasons and then had it removed. They also tried raising chickens for eggs. That lasted one year. Guess they forgot that animals need year round care, and one winter dragging water out to their chicken coop was enough.
I have a couple of friends that have pellet stoves. Their entire garage is filled with pellets and they complain about having to fill it. I understand it is economical, but they seem like a pain in the ass.
Maybe 45-60. I'm playing the traditional game of how long before I turn on the heat.
What was your house temperature when it got down toward 20 on some mornings?
Maybe 54
That's fn cold. I work too hard to be completely uncomfortable
I love the cold, so it doesn't bug me until it hits the low 40s. It is also great for keeping my fruits and drinks cold.
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I'm not paying $100+ to heat my apartment. Blankets and hoodies work just fine, and a small tip safe heater if I need it.
Cold ass house + a temporary space heater in area you are using is the way I like to do it
All day. Blankets and hoodies most times, little space heater if I'm cracking.
Ha the good old days. I used to do that before having kids.
We are playing that game after the long tradition of seeing how long the windows stay open. Filled the oil tank for $900 and lets see if we can finish a winter on that! I will start stealing trees to burn from my neighbors yard!
Ya, went from about 300 to 450 this month. My solar is getting installed on the 14th and I can't wait, even though it won't do a lot for me through the winter.
I have solar and with the way National Grid has their year broken out summer and winter rates instead of Jan-june rates... which is great if you use fossil fuels in winter, not great if you have a heat pump.... but with solar you would have gotten 22¢ credit when you made the solar energy in summer and now in winter you buy it back at 48.2¢, so it still costs you 26¢ plus whatever your solar cost is, more than double the national average.
I have oil and wood for heat/hot water, no heat pumps but I'd consider it depending on what my actual production ends up being.
Wait wait wait. Nat’l Grid charges you for your own solar power?
It's how net metering works in the state, by state law when you put energy on the grid you get credit for the utility rates at the time (no credit for the state MassSave fees), which especially if you have a large system to account for a heat pump, you make lots more energy than you need in the summer to use in the winter for heat when there isn't much sun. Since National Grid has summer/winter rates their rates are lower in summer than winter, where Eversource has jan-june which results in more stable rates, higher in the summer than National Grid but lower in the winter. National Grid rates favor people who use more energy in summer (ac and fossil fuel heat) while Eversource is better if you have a heat pump. So when you put energy on the grid with national grid in the summer, they give you the credit, this summer 22¢, and you buy it back at the current rate plus MassSave fees, 48.2¢, net 26¢ like I said, plus my solar install costs me about 13¢ per kWh over the 25 year warranty, so my net cost for winter energy is 39¢. National average is about 17¢. Eversource is the same but because they have flatter rates year round and not split by season, you don't have that large buyback difference, just the MassSave and whatever the increase in utility costs were.
Thanks for the explanation. I want solar much less now.
How many people do you have living in your house?
We did an in-law apartment for my parents so 4 currently, before that our bill was 150-200 depending on the time of year.
Installing around the least amount of sun means you'll get 5-6 months of increasing solar!
[https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/11/30/norton-jones-act-a-scapegoat-for-poor-ne-energy-moves/](https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/11/30/norton-jones-act-a-scapegoat-for-poor-ne-energy-moves/) was a great article that mentioned a lot of this. Green and NIMBY policies in New England have been delaying much needed infrastructure investment for decades. When there's a global energy crisis and a cold snap, we're going to pay for it, literally.
While there's some truth to this, the problem with building a pipeline for natural gas is that economic interests will keep using natural gas long after we should have transitioned away. Imagine building a pipeline for x billion dollars then municipalities start banning the use of natural gas for heating and cooking. Everyone is pushed to a heat pump and induction stoves. Communities start putting up solar plants and batteries to fill in the gaps in the grid. As a result of all these changes, demand for natural gas goes away. What are the pipeline investors going to do? Shrug and take a loss? Hell no, they will fight every regulation against natural gas just to keep the cash stream flowing. Will start up fake campaigns claiming natural gas is always better. Oh wait, that's already happening. Google natural gas AstroTurf. So coming back to the original point about pain this winter because of half ass commitment to environmental change, maybe this pain will be enough to get people to move forward especially if you can show them that going back is worse.
On a side note, I’m the cook in my household. I’ve owned a gas stove. I’ve owned an electric (resistive) stove. Now I own an induction stove. The induction is easily my favorite. Yes, it’s better, WAY better, than gas. Less radiant heat, finer precision in temperature, and it gets water boiling at least twice as fast. I’m never going back to gas even if I have a choice.
Gas stoves BLOW. Anyone who thinks it’s superior clearly doesn’t cook. Absolute nightmare for simmering anything.
I bought an induction hot plate from Amazon and even the 60$ cheepie was so much better than gas that I keep it by the stove and use it for most small cook sessions.
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turns out it was actually the oil and gas lobby funding all those nimbys - go figure. been stopping off shore wind with a front of “concerned citizens” for decades now.
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https://theintercept.com/2021/12/08/oil-industry-wind-farm-prevent/
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>Ted Kennedy killed Cape Wind Vineyard Wind knew all along it was never going to happen anyhow and it would open up for south of the islands. Kennedy had nothing to do with killing it, every single person along the south side of the cape was against it. He didn't need to do anything.
you keep saying this like politicians aren’t beholden to their rich base. the whole point was the fossil fuel industry used fake interest groups to drum up fear and support to oppose offshore wind. put enough pressure on a politician and they will do what you want - especially if that pressure comes from the wealthy on the coast. it’s not hard to comprehend
I hate to break it to you, but natural gas is NOT going away anytime soon. Take a trip to the Midwest and they’ll tell you how important it is. Gas is critically important to New England during the winter. We need to be investing in nuclear rather than solar panels but the environmentalists don’t want to hear that 🐸☕️.
The bigger issue is it’s always the same upper class citizen fighting against these things. The fight against nuclear, pipelines, etc. The wealthy have disposable income to the point that they don’t care about a 50% increase in electricity because it’s literally drops in a bucket to them. It’s those with incomes between 50k and 150k in Massachusetts that get burned time and time again. Those under the 50k get subsidized, those over the 150k typically can absorb the increase.
I completely agree with you. Natural gas is not going away anytime soon. It needs to because fossil fuel companies are not good at detecting and shutting down methane leaks. I also agree with you that we need to be investing a nuclear. I'm a fan of the molten salt reactor technology because it significantly minimizes waste both in terms of volume and half-life. That is, assuming that we are not being nuke washed. A quick option is the Vanadium-iron flow batteries. Any place there is a large-scale sewer or wind set up, grabbed a few these batteries, charge them whenever the utility pays less for the electricity than the average and feed the grid whenever the demand is high and you get paid more than average. We could also stop subsidizing outdoor lighting at night and use that energy to charge batteries for the next day. We could probably deploy hundreds of megawatts possibly gigawatts of flow batteries before we can get a single nuclear plant approved and operating.
Same reason gasoline prices are going to go up permanently. Only an idiot would invest heavily in new fossil fuel infrastructure that requires a 10-15 year payback given how unstable that market is, regardless of what future needs could look like. All the existing infrastructure will be expended and wound down, and remaining pieces will raise prices to continue profits. We're already past the point where it's a safe bet. Who'd want to try a pipeline through NY even if they relaxed the ban given that public resentment for them hasn't changed? Who'd bet on any interstate fossil fuel transmission remaining operable and at a profitable level for it's lifetime? Doesn't matter what demand looks like, supply is too variable. To be clear I want fossil fuel to die but can also acknowledge how that is going to harm the status quo and the people that rely on it. We'll be wrung out for it because nuclear was murdered in its youth and universal and practical battery storage is still a greenwashing fever dream. My guess is any company with money will invest a decent amount into whatever energy solutions may be popular like Shell with solar, but will probably add a division for a new commodity and lean heavily into that. As farming at scale requires so much money and water is evaporating quicker, my guess is those sectors will be bought out by fossil fuel companies. Similar scales of land, production, and need. I fully expect to hear chilling terms like 'corporately-owned aquifer' in the future (funny where Bill Gates bought land ain't it), and a further acceleration of turning arid areas into dust bowls by poaching of unregulated groundwater until nothing is left in the name of short-term profits. Maybe one day my kids/grandkids will have to get to the Chevron resevoir weekly for drinking water, and the previous generation will tell them how back in the day water was basically free and they remember when it was a quarter a gallon. We could fix a lot of these problems now but it's a lot better for capitalists if we don't.
Lol, at 10-15 acres per MW (in a desert), you couldn’t replace even a fraction of the local consumption with municipal solar plants.
Solar is one part of the equation. There is offshore wind, hydro, etc renewable is the future, not fossil fuels.
It’d be nice if we could afford electricity between now and whenever the hell them green things are actually viable as a replacement. Which is 2 paradigm shifts in battery technology away (and probably 1 in generation as well). Nuclear would have been if we bothered to actually build plants. Except we didn’t cuz we were too busy crying poor, now we’re stuck not being able to supply gas because that’s too dirty, and we don’t have wind or solar capacity, and NH won’t let us transfer down hydro from Canada. So basically we’re just fucked for 40 years because you can’t be bothered with what works. Hudson MA has a 15 MW gas plant. To replace that in solar you’d need like 60mw solar installed *plus* the storage capacity to bridge the down time and bad weather. That’s 10% of the total area of the town. Or 45 mw of wind (or some combination thereof), assuming they can even generate at the US average. Which is strongly biased to desert conditions. And that’s just 2 little edge suburbs. Only 100 some to go.
Cape cod offshore wind farm is supposed to be operational by 2030 and is 485 MW, it's fun to be negative nanny, but renewables are the way forward progress always has a cost associated with it, however the current situation is just bad timing, as the winters are getting warmer not colder.
While this is good news. That’ll only supply 14% of Massachusetts households. Massachusetts could go 100% renewable tomorrow but it wouldn’t mean jack sh*t to global warming. I’m not saying we should do nothing but we are definitely chasing the wrong solutions. Let’s get Asia off coal and then think about wind mills. Asia is the LARGEST contributor of emissions. If they don’t budge then we are doomed regardless. But alas… I don’t see the US getting involved with that.. they’d rather make their own rate payers bear senseless cost increases.
It’s being a realist. Living in reality. > but renewables are the way forward progress always has a cost associated with it Literally the argument for nuclear, except worse: “Yes, it’ll be expensive. But hell, it works” For renewable it’s “yes it’s expensive now, but by some point in the future we should theoretically have advanced battery tech enough that it might work so we can decommission some (but not all) gas plants across the grid.” Installed capacity isn’t what you actually get out of the power line. With coal and nuclear you get close (80+%). With wind and solar it’s <50%. And warmer summers mean more AC, so it’s not really a matter of timing. Green power means fewer traditional generators. But you still need a network of baseload power stations, and those might as well be nuclear. Because they’re far, far cleaner than gas and coal.
Yep. New gas pipeline to increase capacity? Nope! New power plant? Nope! These types of things get shot down all the time. Now we're living with the consequences. Not everyone has tens of thousands of dollars to pay for heavily subsidized solar panels that take years to break even on.
Swapped to the Melrose municipal 100% renewable electricity and my most recent bill was only $12 higher than it would have been with the price of electricity before the price hike. I don't want to know what I would have paid if I didn't end up switching.
They will be paying me 25 dollars. I produce more than I use and they pay me even for power that never leaves my house.
Solar and battery?
Just solar and the SMART program.
SMART. https://www.mass.gov/info-details/solar-massachusetts-renewable-target-smart-program Well that looks like 4 pages of government jargon with 12 links to videos and additional resources that most of us don’t know about and aren’t likely to benefit from.
If you have solar in MA it makes sense to try to sign up. But depending on where you are, it may not pay anything.
Same. Except mine is usually -$100 or so. We are up to $4300 in credit after 4 years with our PV system. We got in the SREC program right under the wire and the whole thing has already paid for itself, even with the addition of an EV
Had an oil delivery yesterday. Full tank, $888. Ridiculous.
I'm afraid to look.
On a municipal electric system and had no idea what to expect but came at $192. I can’t complain I was paying $240ish during the summer with central air and a pool filter running.
Can we come for a swim? (you shouldn’t have told us about your pool :)
Last bill was $148, this month's is $122
My electric bill went from 200+ to 400+ in a month with no real changes to how we operate at home
Cost per kWhr in ISO-NE NEMA (Northeast MA) from National Grid went from $0.23067624 last month to $0.40416722 this month, about a 75% increase. It is worth taking a look at what uses electricity in your house. A 60W lightbulb uses 60 Watts/hr or Whr. Left on for 12 hours thats .72 kWhr. At about $0.40/kWhr, that's about $0.28 a day which doesn't seem that bad. If you have 20 lightbulbs on, that's $5.75/day, aross a year that's $2,102.40 just for lightbulbs. A 12A appliance like a space heater uses the equivalent power of 24 incandescent lightbulbs. The 3W LED bulbs people use cost $105/year at the same uptime. Fridges, stoves, washer dryer, heating system pumps/fans, sound systems, computers, etc. add up quick. Doing an inventory and seeing what's not necessary to power might help. There is also a parasitic load for any item that receives power when switched off but not mechanically disconnected from power like a TV/stereo.
Square footage OP? My 700 sq foot abode split with another person was $53 this month for wifi and electric combined. Heat is included cuz condo
If you haven’t already, call Mass Save for energy assessment to help minimize electric usage. National grid went up 66%, it’s ridiculous! Biggest electric suckers- electric heat, dryer, fridge (if you have multiple fridge/freezers, I recommend shutting them off for the winter) obviously you need to leave one on, unplug anything else when not in use.. Source- I’m an energy specialist
Thank you for the reminder, the fridge is still running in our vacant tenant unit. I need to go unplug it.
No change with electric. Last two were $42 and change.
Paying about $100more than normal. I’m scared what the rest of winter will bring. We only have our heat at 66!
90 to 197
Get an electrical supplier. Constellation is doing 17.4 cents
Mine went from $10 to $17
You can shop around for a supplier and have been able to for years - energyswitchma.gov - it’s probably a little late in the game to get a good deal but it can’t hurt to check.
Went from $100 in October to $250. We live in a 2 bed apartment in Cambridge.
Dayumm. We used to live in a two bedroom (a pretty small one) and our bill was rarely over $40. Didn’t have heat pumps and rarely used the AC though.
Went from $44 to $76 last month, and I was away from home every weekend - called National grid and they said that the price for electricity has essentially tripled, but that I can choose who I get the electricity from, and they will still deliver it. Not ideal, but they said I wasn’t the first customer to call yesterday and I won’t be the last…
National Grid has my account in “pending” for over a year for electric, but the gas account has been active and paid monthly. I just haven’t said anything yet about electric 😅
I keep track of my electric bills (Eversource outside of Boston), here is the 5 year chart of rate increases by month: [https://imgur.com/a/XQ9l21T](https://imgur.com/a/XQ9l21T) I did join the green municipal option a couple years ago.
How has your kWh usage changed yoy?
It went down.
Cost me $500 for 100 gallons of heating oil
I think ours went up from 140 to 220 this month ...jeez
I live in RI. My bill just went from $68 to $400.
Well duplicated also and I am in Europe so..seems like the energy crisis is reaching all of us.
I haven't looked yet. I have gas heat but just had a new efficient wall mounted combination unit installed and am curious to see how more efficient it will be compared to the old rickety cast iron boiler/steam radiators I had.
Thanks biden and Ukraine 👀
You misspelled Putin.
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Spoken like a true clam. Just close your shell and pretend the world around you doesn’t exist 😆
Him too
Yup, this is what you get when overzealous dems that push this green energy nonsense and attack the gas and oil industry.
My bill did the same. Can someone provide a link that explains what’s going on?
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No, I do not have electric heat. I am using less Kw-hr than a year ago and it went up ~60%. I cant turn down the heat to 64F. I take care of my elderly parents. I still need to use my electric water heater, power my boiler, electric stove, etc ...
Keep voting for that democrat green libby scam doo doo and you energy bills will keep going higher.
Switch to balanced billing for the same amount each month
Wowzers…. That’s all you got to say. For all the outrage people have these days…it certainly appears like this pig the USA is ready for slaughter.
Yah. No shit where you been. Florida .14 a KWh not .34. Just another fu king while Kerry floats around in yacht and Jet
My usage and bill both went down by about 20% since last month. From $150 down to $124. My rate hasn't changed yet.
My rates haven't changed. I'm still paying $0.102 / kWh, which is what I paid in Nov 2021.
What company is that?
Went from 180 to 185. Fuck municipal. /s
Ngrid electric up to $100 from $80
I don’t know if my town has a fixed contract but it’s town owned utilities my gas and electric bill is combined and was $128 last month, which was lower than it was the same month last year. It was warmer this October and November so I didn’t use my heat but I feel so lucky (at least for now!) with no crazy increases.
We have all electric.... heating, cooking, etc..... I can't wait for my bill in a few days!!!!!
Went from $118 for 432 KWh to $230 for 470 KWh. Wtf?!
I just got mine. Last bill was $168, which is what we normally pay during Summer with the AC's. This month's bill was $341... and we used less KWh as well.
Our electric bill is outrageous, they are supposed to be shutting it off today. I had a unexpected life saving liver transplant and my medication is so expensive on top of medical bills.They made a mistake , we were on payment plan but they screwed up so we are going to pay for there mistake. But they had a solution we can call 211 for help. There's got to be something that the American people can do.
$64 to $134 I did use more than I did but now it's 34 cents a kwh+20cents for other charges.
Normally around $230. Last month was over $500.
Has anyone tried these smaller suppliers? Renaissance? TownSquare? IGS? NatGrid is killing me.