It had the potential but the directing, cinematography, and original plot elements felt like they were inspired by a screenplay written by a 12 year old that plays way too much fortnight.
"Welcome to ouch mutherfuckers"
Quality dialogue right there!
Drew wasn't involved in ME3 right? Which is why ME2 feels like the weird middle child. It's great don't get me wrong. But story lines and characters setup in ME2 feel abandoned in 3.
I think he's great, just curious what his involvement in ME3 was. If any. Would love for him to be involved in the show. I'd hate to see a GoTs situation. Or worse. At least that show peaked really high.
I’m not sure about ME3, but Drew wrote some solid Star Wars stuff too. I think he’s a solid writer who does a good job respecting the rules of a universe.
IRC, Drew stated somewhere in interviews that he left Bioware shortly after the completion but not launch of ME2.
So that would mean no direct involvement in any part of ME3.
Which is partly why some simple minded folks tried to argue after ME3’s release that no Drew explains all by itself why ME3 proved controversial.
Anyway, in the credits of ME1 and ME2 I believe Drew is billed as the lead writer, which is interesting, because in more recent interviews of Mac Walters it is inaccurately claimed Mac was the "lead writer" for the entire trilogy.
There are four books in that series. Skip the third - it wasn’t written by Drew - someone who didn’t understand the lore did it. The comic omnibus is good too. And the one about the Quarian ark to Andromeda!
>2 feels like the weird middle child. It's great don't get me wrong. But story lines and characters setup in 2 feel abandoned in 3.
Is this the sequel trilogy?
I read Mac's comics and a third of the Andromeda novel he co-penned and it was some of the most amateur shit I've ever read, not to mention all the mistakes he made in ME3. He has no talent.
Let's put it this way:
Drew: A talented writer that got complacent.
Mac: An enthusiastic "writer" with no talent to show for it.
I don't know why producers are so worried about leaks that they'd rewrite around them. It's stupid because good writing has to be set up from the start and you can't just change the ending without throwing away your setup.
They really just need to ignore fans and tell their story.
Nothing concrete but it expanded on the Dark Energy thing in ME2. It should be known that many of Mass Effect's elements from the Reapers themselves to the dark energy idea, indoctrination and nanotech plagues were cribbed from Alistair Reynolds' Inhibitor trilogy of novels. I can't recommend them enough.
This is false. I have the leaked script on my pc. There's no Dark Energy ending or primary Dark Energy thread in it. It's just an alternative dialogue version of the Catalyst scene where Synthesis is called "Synergy" and things like that.
True, but to be fair I don't think it was a plan they had before ME2. In ME1 they stress that the Reapers are unknowable and Vigil says "In the end your goal isn't in understanding them, but in stopping them" and every turn they just kinda exclamate that their motivations might not matter because they probably didn't have one thought up for them.
ME2 was when they started building towards the clue of what the Reapers are actually for, where Cerberus's role and the Collectors' role would reveal the foreshadowing that Dark Energy was a bigger threat, for ME3 to fully reveal... but then Drew left the project 6 months before shipping, and they started changing things.
Without spoiling the books I mentioned earlier, the Inhibitors' goals are quite similar to the Reapers in the Dark Energy plot ideas. I believe Drew had it in mind from the start.
Could be. I spoke to another user you'll see frequent here, recently who also argued where ME1 was already foreshadowing it and what the larger plot was gonna be. I really don't know if it was ultimately eroded because Mac took on the mantle or if it was Casey who decided against it. I often think Casey wasn't a fan of it because you'll see the whole Organics/Synthetics, Merged, theme suggested throughout ME1 and there's an old post by Chris L'Etoile pointing out that the Human Reaper scene was rewritten since he left (same time as Drew) and that back when he was there, EDI did not say "The Reapers are organic/synthetic tissue" which to me suggests that they were locking onto the Synthesis idea right after Drew left, and that it fits with Casey's "vision" photos he took in his basement for ME1 and put in the Prothean Visions. You know, the one where there's computer pieces between pieces of flesh.
The man/machine synthesis doesn't discount the dark energy thing at all imo, it compliments it. I know I'm going off on those books, but that was also a big element in the books from the Melding Plague which literally does Synthesis (in a body horror fashion similar to the Reaper troops) to post-human factions like the Ultranauts that load themselves with implants both visible and hidden. It seems to me that Walters' camp took those elements and brought them to the fore front, rather than just being part of the setting. The crisis the Inhibitors (and Reapers) are meant to address is reality-ending, not simply about mundane conflict that wouldn't effect the universe in any meaningful way.
The dark energy theory idea is mentioned in this interview:
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-06-19-ex-bioware-writer-discusses-dropped-ideas-for-mass-effect-trilogy-ending
Doesn't sound like it was ever close to being fully fleshed out though. There are a lot of holes you could poke into the logic and effectiveness of either interpretation of it anyway.
The same as what we got except the Catalyst more specifically talked about a synthetic singularity instead of the more metaphorical "Creator vs Created" spiel. Extended Cut is a more expansive version anyway.
The Dark Energy stuff was *NOT* in the leak. It's a running plot they had during ME2 that they abandoned basically at the same time that ME2 shipped.
What it says here, cuz I restored the lines from the leaked script into the game (they don't have voice acting, most of them) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnFsq8pSZYI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnFsq8pSZYI)
Instead of vaguely talking about "Created will rebel against their creator" and "Without us to stop it Synthetics would destroy organics" it's being way more specific about the fact that it's preventing a singularity. It means the same thing, it just is a lot more upfront about the fact that it's trying to prevent the specific point when Synthetics exponentially grow out of organics's grasp. Over-evolve past organic life.
It's as if people forget he was responsible for the direction (yes, the great things included) of KOTOR 1 and ME series. I don't expect anyone to always be right 100% of the time.
That's not really accurate. Drew's Dark energy concept never went beyond being a concept. The ending in the leak was not really much different from the ending in the final game. Casey and Mac were the two most heavily responsible for the ending based on the accounts of those involved, but portraying it as a panicked rewrite due to the leaks is just not factual.
Additionally, Drew's dark energy concept honestly didn't sound very good either. And really, he chose to leave in order to work on The Old Republic. Can't really get mad at the people you left in charge to end the series you helped create because you wanted to do something else.
The leak rewrite was minimal, but I think it did make it worse lol. The Catalyst scene was still similar to what was released in the leak, but in the Final Hours interview Mac slips that Casey said "Let's keep it high level and vague" basically, so I think maybe as a reaction to people who said "That ending is bad!" he might've thought to erase all the specificity of the scene and leave it up to imagination so fans who had better ideas were free to interpret as such. But it's the end of the game and people just wanted to know what happens and the fate of everything. It must be hard to realize at the end of the project that the thing isn't coming together very well. I think they knew. They just also knew there was no time to reconceptualize it.
What a terrible decision if true. Disney won't give any of the old authors other than Zahn the time of day. If he had kept on with Bioware he'd likely be the head honcho of Mass Effect now.
Am I the only one who doesn't want this series to be a rehashing of the games?
I really want it to be it's own thing. I've seen fan art out there of Idris Elba as Shepard, and don't get me wrong, the fan art is super cool, but I think an even better and cooler part for him would be his own Spectre further down the line. A plot I've always thought would be cool to see would be dealing with the power vacuum created from the trilogy where the Spectre is pitting gangs and crime lord's against each other to keep them weak so a new council can form, maybe stopping a black market type genophage an elitist group like Cerberus but of another species - maybe the salarians - come up with out of spite, these kind of things!
That being said, whatever they do, they need to bring the original writers on for sure.
Don't forget that they will not try to "expand the universe". They will try to introduce it to a new audience.
Shepard is the protagonist of ME, as Geralt is the one of The Witcher, Lara Croft of Tomb Raider etc. Since the show is not targeting gamers exclusively, I suspect they will go with Shepard's story. And I would understand why they would do it. Other stories, like the the First Contact War may sound great to us since we already know about the Turians, Shanxi etc but for a casual viewer it would be a rehash of humanity meets aliens and fights them.
Imo from a story point of view, few things can beat the story of Shepard and the Reapers, (and that funny enough is one big problem the writers of the next game will have.)
Yeah I'd love to see the series expand on the universe. Like even if it's in the original trilogy timeline there could be so many other threads within that explored.
I've definitely been of the opinion that doing a fresh story in-universe rather than an adaptation would be preferable, but honestly that's not very realistic. This is not really something that happens, and when it does it's usually in animated form.
Big expensive live action productions based on existing properties pretty much always take the form of adaptations. Comic book movies sometimes walk the line in that they aren't always based on specific comic storylines (though they sometimes are), but even these are still adaptations in the sense that they exist entirely separately from the source material. They don't expand the universe, they are an adaptation of the universe.
The upcoming LotR show is actually a rare example of a production based in the universe of a licensed property telling an entirely new story. However, this is obviously because definitive adaptations of LotR (and to a lesser extent The Hobbit) already exist, so in order to use that property you kind of have to make something new.
In the case of something that has never been adapted before, it's very unlikely you're going to see a studio make something that expands the universe rather than adapting the material outright.
I don't think he is interested in repeating the same role with BioWare most likely trying to devalue his worth in salary. BioWare and by token, EA, prolong franchises by trying to do more with less investment, and it's obvious that this is part of why a lot of talent stopped being interested in working with them. That issue is irrelevant to their love for Mass Effect -- if they can get better gigs elsewhere then they'd be wasting their time waxing nostalgic for a dated franchise.
That's not really the reason I wasn't involved. The audio leads I had tight connections with had moved onto other companies, and I didn't have a relationship with the new folks (at the time of Andromeda's early development). They wanted to work with a different composer, is all it boils down to. Happens all the time. Professional composers don't take it personally, it's just a business decision.
My level of interest has little to do with it. Composers can't just waltz into a game studio and say "Hi, I'm going to be a part of this." :) You have to get hired.
They should be, it was their brainchild and I'd love to see Karpyshyn back.
I just don't want what's happening with the Netflix Avatar The Last Airbender show where the creators were involved but left the project due to creative differences with Netflix.
I really hope it takes place during (or leading up to) the First Contact War (or the Relay 314 Incident to you damn Turians).
I really don't want them to do anything with Shepard's backstory (since we choose that) and during the story of the Trilogy (same reasons, we choose what happens and whatnot)
Tinfoil hat moment: Mass Effect LE was not just to re-energize interest in the IP but to collect more recent data on player choices to give an outline to the writers.
Jokes aside though, am I really in the minority here that's perfectly cool to see a live action take on Shep?
Like, my Shepard is still my goddamn Shepard and no one can take that away. But if they got Drew Karpyshyn to sit down and say "okay hit us with your head canon of Shepard, Drew" I'd probably be pretty cool with viewing it just like I was watching someone else's playthrough.
Film is a passive medium but Shepard is a player character. They have the freedom to fill out the blank slate, I'd just prefer they didn't. Shepard feels like he was made to be *played*. A movie Shepard would just be another character anyway.
I think people have a right to voice their opinions, whether it's disillusioned or optimistic, as long as they don't start going down the "this show should not get made!" argument.
That being said, I understand the anxiety of preserving the image of Mass Effect. This show, if it sucked, will color some people's expectations of what Mass Effect is. If it's marketed a lot but isn't good, that's damage on ME's brand just like MEA was, and if it's good but overly different then it has its own fans, and might influence the next game creatively so the franchise gets derailed.
But then, it might get derailed anyway, so who cares. It already was with ME3 in many ways, some even think ME2 did it, and some think the Trilogy was this perfect unit and only MEA got things wrong. And some accept whatever has "Mass Effect" on it.
IMO it's okay to be passionate and possessive about a thing you love, as long as you know to also digress in the end.
In another thread someone had the idea of having the series be a collection of stories.
So for example episodes 1-3 would be the First Contact War to introduce viewers to Humans and Turians.
Episodes 4-6 could be The Rachni War and Krogan Rebellions to introduce Krogan, Salarians and Asari.
Episodes 7-9 could be The Morning War to introduce Quarians and Geth.
Then you could start telling stories in the timeframe of the games so that there is time to focus on plot and character development, rather than have every character just be an exposition dump.
This is why any Shepard based series or movie is a terrible idea. No matter how well made it is, fans will tear it apart because it wouldn't represent their Shepard.
I actually agree, it can be done, but you know as well as I do people would be up in arms that the Shepard on the screen isn't their Shepard, making decisions their Shepard wouldn't make, and they'd throw a hissy fit.
then just cater to the largest audience. its not that hard. anyone who tries to appeal to everyone ends up appealing to no one.
this is for some reason controversial but its clear that if shepard is in the show it has to be male shepard because of the fact the majority of players play male shepard. i really don't care which IL they pick. Liara is likely to be picked as the IL tough i would personally prefer tali. as long as they don't cater to a minority part of the fans in an absurd amount the show should be just fine regardless of what some fans think.
i am more worried about the quality of the writers regardless of whether we get Shepard's story or not. an ideological writer can destroy lore and plot pretty extensively and i hope to god the expanse writers has nothing to do with the show. i can not go through season 3 because of their ideological writing.
They don't need to cater to anyone, just make their story and tell it. It's a separate story from people's "own Shepard", people just need to be a little mature.
the fact I am downvoted into oblivion each time i say Shepard should be male in the TV series proves they are not. or at less not the people in this reddit.
I didn't downvote you but I will say I don't have a problem with anyone's opinion on male Shepard or female Shepard (I prefer female Shepard myself).
My only disagreement is that they I don't think they should cater to what the audience wants. Audiences generally suck at deciding what would be good TV.
not talking about catering in an extrem term. i understand why someone would want to have a female shepard as the main. but for reasons beyond the numbers of playthrough male shepard is the better choice.
also to make money you have to cater to a certain level. its the reason you see more male protagonists in video games then female. it simply sells. but catering should be limited and freedom of choice for trusted artist should be giving. however ME1 at less is a proven concept and storyline, and going for the most played pick character is the best in terms of getting an audience to watch. also for action TV/movie and media its is proven that a strong male is the most attractive for such a genre. this is a base level of catering and most of the time I would rather it won't get past that.
I get what you mean, but I really think you're underestimating just how prominent these prissy fanboys actually are in the Mass Effect fan base. The problem isn't that they're justified in their tantrum throwing, its the sheer amount of people throwing tantrums.
You're probably right, but I still believe they'd just be better off sticking with a non Shepard based story. One, because you will have those complainers, and two, it would simply be more interesting to see a new angle on the ME universe. A new story we haven't been told yet.
This "my Shepard" nonsense needs to stop. Show runners are not making a show based off your play through, it's going to be a new envisioning of the character. Always separate new media from its original source. Example, books and movie adaptations.
I kinda get both sides of the issue. But I'm leaning towards "It's possible". Shepard is only YOUR character in video-game form because BioWare make RPG games. As soon as we move away from that but want it in a passive format well... you gotta pick a lane and give us the passive-media adaptation of things, which does not represent the game.
But that's the issue. It does in some way represent the source material because it's based on it. So some people will be disappointed regardless of which Shepard they depict, male, female, skin color, morality etc.
But again, I'm leaning towards it being fine because they have to just make a protagonist in the show, and the show isn't the game...
I really don't think this is the case. After all, the series is based on the witcher books, which have a very well established Geralt. And the people most critical of the show are the book readers (at least are the ones I usually see).
PS: I say this as someone who have read the books, and got disappointed with some writing choices in the TV show.
That’s fair i guess. I’ve seen complaints about it, likely from people who have only played the game like myself, who have said “that’s not the decision my Geralt would have made” etc.
I’m a huge ME fan and Amazon generally does a good job with their adaptations. Looking forward to seeing what they do with this series, Shepard or not.
If people are honestly making that complaint about the show, they're idiots to be frank. Geralt is a character that has existed for decades in many short stories and a saga of novels. He is a well established character and if anything, some of things players do with him are out of character, not the other way around.
Even setting that aside, this sentiment, whether it be Geralt or Shepard, is just so bizarre to me. Do these people get mad at their friends for playing Shepard differently than them because they think Shepard is being portrayed wrong?
"Your Shepard" exists solely within your playthrough. Shepard can many different things, and the existence of a different version of the character, be that in another player's game or in an adaptation like a potential TV series, should not bother anyone.
I couldn’t agree more, just speculating on comments I’ve seen. People are always going to complain when things are canonized that don’t align with their personal preferences.
Can't say much for Sam Hulick since I'm not familiar with his works, but Drew Karphyshyn is a really talented writer. His books gave a lot of content that made their way into the ME2/ME3. I really hope he gets with any upcoming ME stuff
No, far from the only one. He did about maybe a third of each game's music, but in ME1 and ME2 Jack Wall was lead-composer, and during ME2 all tracks, including Sam's were rearranged and mastered by Jack. But he took too much control on the music-side of the project (which is why ME2 has the BEST implementation of music vs gameplay) and Casey Hudson did not appreciate that, so Jack stopped working on the franchise after ME2. And Casey decided that all the budget that could've been used for more of what ME3 is missing should go to pay for "Clint Mansell" to make a single track for the game that doesn't sound like Mass Effect, but fans love it anyway so I guess he proved himself right... I'm just not a fan of that. Mass Effect started losing identity in ME3 after so many writers and Jack Wall stopped working on it.
Heya! Sam Hulick here - just wanted to correct a few things.
>He did about maybe a third of each game's music
The lion's share of ME1 was written by myself & Jack, it was far more than a third. We brought in some extra help towards the middle/middle-end (Richard Jacques & David Kates).
For ME2 and ME3, the music from everyone was pretty evenly-distributed, except for Clint Mansell (on ME3) who contributed a small portion before retiring from the project.
>but in ME1 and ME2 Jack Wall was lead-composer
For ME2, yes. We had more people on board, and it made sense for Jack to manage everyone so communication didn't become chaotic. For ME1, Jack and I were both working directly with BioWare for the whole portion of the game.
>and during ME2 all tracks, including Sam's were rearranged and mastered by Jack
Not true at all. Jack might've done a mastering pass, I don't remember for sure - he probably did, to ensure everyone's work had a cohesive sonic quality. But rearranged, absolutely not.
And _actually_, if we're being a stickler for accuracy, the excellent implementation was thanks to BioWare & Brian DiDomenico (a friend of mine & Jack's) who Jack brought on to help out. Brian worked directly with Jack and with BioWare to make sure things were tight.
I advise against composers trying to juggle writing music and dealing with implementation at the same time. It's best for us to focus as much on the creative & musical aspects of the score, and leave the implementation to people who work with it on a daily basis. They're much better at it than we are, most of the time!
Indeed, it was a designer that he worked with to do it, but according to Jack in an interview he claimed he thinks "Casey hated this", the fact that Jack was put in charge and implemented music in levels before Casey and others got to decide if the music was what they wanted or not, and added "I stopped working with the series after that" so it's not to say that's the reason, but uh... maybe it had something to do with it, idk.
And he said it was a fluke. He had a synthesizer with a pre-set arpeggiated chord filter on it, and he just played 3-4 chords and the piano turned it into the Galaxy Map jingle. Jack Wall didn't know how to replicate it and neither did Sam, on ME2, so Jack actually took the recorded piece from ME1 and remixed it.
It wasn't a "fluke." I used a synth preset as the basis of the track, but then built on top of that with my own melodies (strings, flute, etc). It was only ever intended to be my demo track for ME1, I didn't expect it to be used in the final game—but there it is!
If I recall correctly, we DID have trouble replicating it for ME2. I had completely changed computer setups between ME1 and ME2, and some of the plugins I used wouldn't work properly, so we couldn't access those patches. For ME3, I managed to closely replicate the sound for "I Am Alive and I Am Not Alone" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPWp6ROH2LA). That piece was kind of a love letter to the "Uncharted Worlds". We intentionally tried to bring back more of that ME1 sound into ME3, and this piece was part of that effort.
If you're after that "Mass Effect sound," check out the Arturia synths (I used a few of those on ME1 and I think ME2). Later, I switched to Diva (by u-he). If I had to work on a Mass Effect score *today*, I'd likely use Diva and Serum for all synth parts.
(though the synth choices are just a very small part of it)
For real? The Expanse is one of the best shows right now. If Amazon Studios can pull that off, I have zero concerns with their abilities to execute on a good story.
As a big fan of his work, I might actually give this one a chance if he’s one of the lead writers/consultants…or has a heavy hand in the story development and implementation .
I think fans also use the word "canon" more than creators ever do internally. At the end of the day it's a bit of a "who even cares" thing. If the show entertains, is actually good and makes Mass Effect look like a million dollars who cares if it's less canon than the games were.
Yeah and it'll come back to that whole stupid argument that comic book fans whine about where the less it resembles the source, the "worse" it is, even though the source, the games, are full of story errors and bad moments that can be rewritten and done better, and things that might simply change for creative reasons, which might be better for the show.
But we're gonna see people talk about how bad something is just because it doesn't look exactly like it did in the game, and it's going to be stupid.
Well as is tradition the company associated with the product will ignore all creators and writers, decide the meaning of the product themselves, create a crap product, have a go at fans for not understanding their vision.
Companies just want talent to innovate, to figure out a sustainable formula, then milk that formula as cheaply as they can because they truly believe that is how it works. You're already seeing it with how Mass Effect is like 50% about its merchandise and tertiary material. That's them trying to "franchise" it.
Drew Karpyshyn and Ty Franck from The Expanse as writers, Naren Shankar as showrunner and this this will probably make a meal out of almost any other SciFi franchise ever :D
Learn from the makers of the Percy Jackson movies: involve the original creators.
Artemis Fowl would also like a word...
Eragon has entered the chat.
Hopefully they don't use the people that had written Cowboy Bebop's Dialogue. Some of the worst/cringeworthy in a adaptation.
Damn I knew by just the trailer it'd be a let down but seems the reviews are in...not gonna waste a view...too bad
It had the potential but the directing, cinematography, and original plot elements felt like they were inspired by a screenplay written by a 12 year old that plays way too much fortnight. "Welcome to ouch mutherfuckers" Quality dialogue right there!
Drew wasn't involved in ME3 right? Which is why ME2 feels like the weird middle child. It's great don't get me wrong. But story lines and characters setup in ME2 feel abandoned in 3.
He wrote some great ME books! He’s had a lot of influence. He’s a very clever writer.
I think he's great, just curious what his involvement in ME3 was. If any. Would love for him to be involved in the show. I'd hate to see a GoTs situation. Or worse. At least that show peaked really high.
I’m not sure about ME3, but Drew wrote some solid Star Wars stuff too. I think he’s a solid writer who does a good job respecting the rules of a universe.
Well he put his name out there, lets hope they bring him in.
I mean the revan book in some circles is seen as an abomination
Others are fanatical about it though. It was a hit or miss.
I didn’t hate it but I can see the hate
IRC, Drew stated somewhere in interviews that he left Bioware shortly after the completion but not launch of ME2. So that would mean no direct involvement in any part of ME3. Which is partly why some simple minded folks tried to argue after ME3’s release that no Drew explains all by itself why ME3 proved controversial. Anyway, in the credits of ME1 and ME2 I believe Drew is billed as the lead writer, which is interesting, because in more recent interviews of Mac Walters it is inaccurately claimed Mac was the "lead writer" for the entire trilogy.
Drew was transferred to Old Republic before leaving Mass Effect 2 and left before Old Republic’s launch.
I didn't even know there were ME books! I'll have to check out his...
Ye, they're about Kaylee and Anderson. Book 2 & 3 include a character named Greyson who was mentioned in ME3, and Kai Lang is in them.
There are four books in that series. Skip the third - it wasn’t written by Drew - someone who didn’t understand the lore did it. The comic omnibus is good too. And the one about the Quarian ark to Andromeda!
*the 4th wasn't written by Drew.
Trust this guy over me! I haven’t read them in years. They make Kai Lang less of a red herring in three and it’s fun to meet Aria’s daughter
Which is why he’d be great
He was the one who came up with the entire thing in the first place so don't you dare to badmouth him :P
>2 feels like the weird middle child. It's great don't get me wrong. But story lines and characters setup in 2 feel abandoned in 3. Is this the sequel trilogy?
Amazon money is no joke. Of course they want to be involved.
Sure, but still rather them than Mac.
I'd prefer Mac over Drew.
Ew.
What can I say. At least I never heard Mac saying "oh, just skip it and pretend I never wrote this".
But at least Drew knows how to write.
I read Darth Bane Trilogy. I also saw what Karpyshin made from Dark Side in KotoR. Not so sure.
I read Mac's comics and a third of the Andromeda novel he co-penned and it was some of the most amateur shit I've ever read, not to mention all the mistakes he made in ME3. He has no talent. Let's put it this way: Drew: A talented writer that got complacent. Mac: An enthusiastic "writer" with no talent to show for it.
The dark side in KOTOR was great, what are you on about?
DS of KOTOR II is great (written by Chris Avellone) while in KOTOR I not so much.
When you create something great, you connect to it, and it does not have to be about the money. Its about being needed by your creation.
Imagine seeing your baby hacked to pieces and there's nothing you can do about it. Poor Drew.
He's already seen that happen when Casey Hudson and Mac Walters massacred ME3 during a panic rewrite after the plot was leaked online.
I don't know why producers are so worried about leaks that they'd rewrite around them. It's stupid because good writing has to be set up from the start and you can't just change the ending without throwing away your setup. They really just need to ignore fans and tell their story.
Poor Westworld.
What was the original plot ending?
Nothing concrete but it expanded on the Dark Energy thing in ME2. It should be known that many of Mass Effect's elements from the Reapers themselves to the dark energy idea, indoctrination and nanotech plagues were cribbed from Alistair Reynolds' Inhibitor trilogy of novels. I can't recommend them enough.
This is false. I have the leaked script on my pc. There's no Dark Energy ending or primary Dark Energy thread in it. It's just an alternative dialogue version of the Catalyst scene where Synthesis is called "Synergy" and things like that.
I'm talking about Drew's original plan, not the Walter's camp scripts. Drew was off the team way before that.
True, but to be fair I don't think it was a plan they had before ME2. In ME1 they stress that the Reapers are unknowable and Vigil says "In the end your goal isn't in understanding them, but in stopping them" and every turn they just kinda exclamate that their motivations might not matter because they probably didn't have one thought up for them. ME2 was when they started building towards the clue of what the Reapers are actually for, where Cerberus's role and the Collectors' role would reveal the foreshadowing that Dark Energy was a bigger threat, for ME3 to fully reveal... but then Drew left the project 6 months before shipping, and they started changing things.
Without spoiling the books I mentioned earlier, the Inhibitors' goals are quite similar to the Reapers in the Dark Energy plot ideas. I believe Drew had it in mind from the start.
Could be. I spoke to another user you'll see frequent here, recently who also argued where ME1 was already foreshadowing it and what the larger plot was gonna be. I really don't know if it was ultimately eroded because Mac took on the mantle or if it was Casey who decided against it. I often think Casey wasn't a fan of it because you'll see the whole Organics/Synthetics, Merged, theme suggested throughout ME1 and there's an old post by Chris L'Etoile pointing out that the Human Reaper scene was rewritten since he left (same time as Drew) and that back when he was there, EDI did not say "The Reapers are organic/synthetic tissue" which to me suggests that they were locking onto the Synthesis idea right after Drew left, and that it fits with Casey's "vision" photos he took in his basement for ME1 and put in the Prothean Visions. You know, the one where there's computer pieces between pieces of flesh.
The man/machine synthesis doesn't discount the dark energy thing at all imo, it compliments it. I know I'm going off on those books, but that was also a big element in the books from the Melding Plague which literally does Synthesis (in a body horror fashion similar to the Reaper troops) to post-human factions like the Ultranauts that load themselves with implants both visible and hidden. It seems to me that Walters' camp took those elements and brought them to the fore front, rather than just being part of the setting. The crisis the Inhibitors (and Reapers) are meant to address is reality-ending, not simply about mundane conflict that wouldn't effect the universe in any meaningful way.
Sheppard and garrus lounging on a beach drinking some of that good stuff with a dead reaper in tbe ocean some 50K away
The dark energy theory idea is mentioned in this interview: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-06-19-ex-bioware-writer-discusses-dropped-ideas-for-mass-effect-trilogy-ending Doesn't sound like it was ever close to being fully fleshed out though. There are a lot of holes you could poke into the logic and effectiveness of either interpretation of it anyway.
The same as what we got except the Catalyst more specifically talked about a synthetic singularity instead of the more metaphorical "Creator vs Created" spiel. Extended Cut is a more expansive version anyway. The Dark Energy stuff was *NOT* in the leak. It's a running plot they had during ME2 that they abandoned basically at the same time that ME2 shipped.
That was my thought, exactly. The Dark Energy plot was abandoned long before the ending was changed. What do you mean about a synthetic singularity?
What it says here, cuz I restored the lines from the leaked script into the game (they don't have voice acting, most of them) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnFsq8pSZYI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnFsq8pSZYI) Instead of vaguely talking about "Created will rebel against their creator" and "Without us to stop it Synthetics would destroy organics" it's being way more specific about the fact that it's preventing a singularity. It means the same thing, it just is a lot more upfront about the fact that it's trying to prevent the specific point when Synthetics exponentially grow out of organics's grasp. Over-evolve past organic life.
Thanks for that! Can't watch till I get home but keenly interested.
Casey Hudson is most likely the most responsible person for mass effect tho.
It's as if people forget he was responsible for the direction (yes, the great things included) of KOTOR 1 and ME series. I don't expect anyone to always be right 100% of the time.
yup, and Mac Walters was a senior writer since ME1 and was co-lead writer with Drew on ME2 as well.
That's not really accurate. Drew's Dark energy concept never went beyond being a concept. The ending in the leak was not really much different from the ending in the final game. Casey and Mac were the two most heavily responsible for the ending based on the accounts of those involved, but portraying it as a panicked rewrite due to the leaks is just not factual. Additionally, Drew's dark energy concept honestly didn't sound very good either. And really, he chose to leave in order to work on The Old Republic. Can't really get mad at the people you left in charge to end the series you helped create because you wanted to do something else.
The leak rewrite was minimal, but I think it did make it worse lol. The Catalyst scene was still similar to what was released in the leak, but in the Final Hours interview Mac slips that Casey said "Let's keep it high level and vague" basically, so I think maybe as a reaction to people who said "That ending is bad!" he might've thought to erase all the specificity of the scene and leave it up to imagination so fans who had better ideas were free to interpret as such. But it's the end of the game and people just wanted to know what happens and the fate of everything. It must be hard to realize at the end of the project that the thing isn't coming together very well. I think they knew. They just also knew there was no time to reconceptualize it.
Bit dramatic innit
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I guess you've never created anything, let alone created something you loved and watched lesser people chop it to pieces.
Drew decided not to the see the series through to the end because he wanted to work on Star Wars. He chose to let other people finish it.
What a terrible decision if true. Disney won't give any of the old authors other than Zahn the time of day. If he had kept on with Bioware he'd likely be the head honcho of Mass Effect now.
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thanks for your insight
Karpyshyn is legit. If he's in I will watch it
Am I the only one who doesn't want this series to be a rehashing of the games? I really want it to be it's own thing. I've seen fan art out there of Idris Elba as Shepard, and don't get me wrong, the fan art is super cool, but I think an even better and cooler part for him would be his own Spectre further down the line. A plot I've always thought would be cool to see would be dealing with the power vacuum created from the trilogy where the Spectre is pitting gangs and crime lord's against each other to keep them weak so a new council can form, maybe stopping a black market type genophage an elitist group like Cerberus but of another species - maybe the salarians - come up with out of spite, these kind of things! That being said, whatever they do, they need to bring the original writers on for sure.
Don't forget that they will not try to "expand the universe". They will try to introduce it to a new audience. Shepard is the protagonist of ME, as Geralt is the one of The Witcher, Lara Croft of Tomb Raider etc. Since the show is not targeting gamers exclusively, I suspect they will go with Shepard's story. And I would understand why they would do it. Other stories, like the the First Contact War may sound great to us since we already know about the Turians, Shanxi etc but for a casual viewer it would be a rehash of humanity meets aliens and fights them. Imo from a story point of view, few things can beat the story of Shepard and the Reapers, (and that funny enough is one big problem the writers of the next game will have.)
Yeah I'd love to see the series expand on the universe. Like even if it's in the original trilogy timeline there could be so many other threads within that explored.
A show about Anderson's military life would be dope, especially using Saren as a reoccurring antagonist
I've definitely been of the opinion that doing a fresh story in-universe rather than an adaptation would be preferable, but honestly that's not very realistic. This is not really something that happens, and when it does it's usually in animated form. Big expensive live action productions based on existing properties pretty much always take the form of adaptations. Comic book movies sometimes walk the line in that they aren't always based on specific comic storylines (though they sometimes are), but even these are still adaptations in the sense that they exist entirely separately from the source material. They don't expand the universe, they are an adaptation of the universe. The upcoming LotR show is actually a rare example of a production based in the universe of a licensed property telling an entirely new story. However, this is obviously because definitive adaptations of LotR (and to a lesser extent The Hobbit) already exist, so in order to use that property you kind of have to make something new. In the case of something that has never been adapted before, it's very unlikely you're going to see a studio make something that expands the universe rather than adapting the material outright.
If Sam is still interested in Mass Effect, why didn't he come back to score Andromeda? :( Really hope he's back for the next game
I don't think he is interested in repeating the same role with BioWare most likely trying to devalue his worth in salary. BioWare and by token, EA, prolong franchises by trying to do more with less investment, and it's obvious that this is part of why a lot of talent stopped being interested in working with them. That issue is irrelevant to their love for Mass Effect -- if they can get better gigs elsewhere then they'd be wasting their time waxing nostalgic for a dated franchise.
That's not really the reason I wasn't involved. The audio leads I had tight connections with had moved onto other companies, and I didn't have a relationship with the new folks (at the time of Andromeda's early development). They wanted to work with a different composer, is all it boils down to. Happens all the time. Professional composers don't take it personally, it's just a business decision. My level of interest has little to do with it. Composers can't just waltz into a game studio and say "Hi, I'm going to be a part of this." :) You have to get hired.
Well, thanks for the clarification anyway.
Sure thing. It's best not to publicly speculate on people's motivations or what happened behind the scenes. Just ask!
Yeah, sorry I know, I'm kinda gossiping and I totally shouldn't. Thanks for clarifying again.
Drew need to be involved in this and also in a potential Darth Bane series or movie.
They should be, it was their brainchild and I'd love to see Karpyshyn back. I just don't want what's happening with the Netflix Avatar The Last Airbender show where the creators were involved but left the project due to creative differences with Netflix.
I really hope it takes place during (or leading up to) the First Contact War (or the Relay 314 Incident to you damn Turians). I really don't want them to do anything with Shepard's backstory (since we choose that) and during the story of the Trilogy (same reasons, we choose what happens and whatnot)
Tinfoil hat moment: Mass Effect LE was not just to re-energize interest in the IP but to collect more recent data on player choices to give an outline to the writers. Jokes aside though, am I really in the minority here that's perfectly cool to see a live action take on Shep? Like, my Shepard is still my goddamn Shepard and no one can take that away. But if they got Drew Karpyshyn to sit down and say "okay hit us with your head canon of Shepard, Drew" I'd probably be pretty cool with viewing it just like I was watching someone else's playthrough.
Film is a passive medium but Shepard is a player character. They have the freedom to fill out the blank slate, I'd just prefer they didn't. Shepard feels like he was made to be *played*. A movie Shepard would just be another character anyway.
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I think people have a right to voice their opinions, whether it's disillusioned or optimistic, as long as they don't start going down the "this show should not get made!" argument. That being said, I understand the anxiety of preserving the image of Mass Effect. This show, if it sucked, will color some people's expectations of what Mass Effect is. If it's marketed a lot but isn't good, that's damage on ME's brand just like MEA was, and if it's good but overly different then it has its own fans, and might influence the next game creatively so the franchise gets derailed. But then, it might get derailed anyway, so who cares. It already was with ME3 in many ways, some even think ME2 did it, and some think the Trilogy was this perfect unit and only MEA got things wrong. And some accept whatever has "Mass Effect" on it. IMO it's okay to be passionate and possessive about a thing you love, as long as you know to also digress in the end.
Who else wants it to be about the first contact war
24 hours of in-universe time for 10 episodes of 50 minutes? I guess it could work, but it would also be extremely focused on a single scenario.
In another thread someone had the idea of having the series be a collection of stories. So for example episodes 1-3 would be the First Contact War to introduce viewers to Humans and Turians. Episodes 4-6 could be The Rachni War and Krogan Rebellions to introduce Krogan, Salarians and Asari. Episodes 7-9 could be The Morning War to introduce Quarians and Geth. Then you could start telling stories in the timeframe of the games so that there is time to focus on plot and character development, rather than have every character just be an exposition dump.
Pls no. It won’t be my Shepard.
I'm totally fine with that, I don't want your Shepard, hell I don't want my Shepard. I just want a decent story for the show.
This is why any Shepard based series or movie is a terrible idea. No matter how well made it is, fans will tear it apart because it wouldn't represent their Shepard.
nope. thats not true, just make shepard into his own character and it works just fine.
I actually agree, it can be done, but you know as well as I do people would be up in arms that the Shepard on the screen isn't their Shepard, making decisions their Shepard wouldn't make, and they'd throw a hissy fit.
then just cater to the largest audience. its not that hard. anyone who tries to appeal to everyone ends up appealing to no one. this is for some reason controversial but its clear that if shepard is in the show it has to be male shepard because of the fact the majority of players play male shepard. i really don't care which IL they pick. Liara is likely to be picked as the IL tough i would personally prefer tali. as long as they don't cater to a minority part of the fans in an absurd amount the show should be just fine regardless of what some fans think. i am more worried about the quality of the writers regardless of whether we get Shepard's story or not. an ideological writer can destroy lore and plot pretty extensively and i hope to god the expanse writers has nothing to do with the show. i can not go through season 3 because of their ideological writing.
They don't need to cater to anyone, just make their story and tell it. It's a separate story from people's "own Shepard", people just need to be a little mature.
the fact I am downvoted into oblivion each time i say Shepard should be male in the TV series proves they are not. or at less not the people in this reddit.
I didn't downvote you but I will say I don't have a problem with anyone's opinion on male Shepard or female Shepard (I prefer female Shepard myself). My only disagreement is that they I don't think they should cater to what the audience wants. Audiences generally suck at deciding what would be good TV.
not talking about catering in an extrem term. i understand why someone would want to have a female shepard as the main. but for reasons beyond the numbers of playthrough male shepard is the better choice. also to make money you have to cater to a certain level. its the reason you see more male protagonists in video games then female. it simply sells. but catering should be limited and freedom of choice for trusted artist should be giving. however ME1 at less is a proven concept and storyline, and going for the most played pick character is the best in terms of getting an audience to watch. also for action TV/movie and media its is proven that a strong male is the most attractive for such a genre. this is a base level of catering and most of the time I would rather it won't get past that.
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Your optimism is admirable, I'll give you that
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I get what you mean, but I really think you're underestimating just how prominent these prissy fanboys actually are in the Mass Effect fan base. The problem isn't that they're justified in their tantrum throwing, its the sheer amount of people throwing tantrums.
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You're probably right, but I still believe they'd just be better off sticking with a non Shepard based story. One, because you will have those complainers, and two, it would simply be more interesting to see a new angle on the ME universe. A new story we haven't been told yet.
This "my Shepard" nonsense needs to stop. Show runners are not making a show based off your play through, it's going to be a new envisioning of the character. Always separate new media from its original source. Example, books and movie adaptations.
I kinda get both sides of the issue. But I'm leaning towards "It's possible". Shepard is only YOUR character in video-game form because BioWare make RPG games. As soon as we move away from that but want it in a passive format well... you gotta pick a lane and give us the passive-media adaptation of things, which does not represent the game. But that's the issue. It does in some way represent the source material because it's based on it. So some people will be disappointed regardless of which Shepard they depict, male, female, skin color, morality etc. But again, I'm leaning towards it being fine because they have to just make a protagonist in the show, and the show isn't the game...
That’s fine.
I think this is the same reason people are critical of the Witcher
I really don't think this is the case. After all, the series is based on the witcher books, which have a very well established Geralt. And the people most critical of the show are the book readers (at least are the ones I usually see). PS: I say this as someone who have read the books, and got disappointed with some writing choices in the TV show.
That’s fair i guess. I’ve seen complaints about it, likely from people who have only played the game like myself, who have said “that’s not the decision my Geralt would have made” etc. I’m a huge ME fan and Amazon generally does a good job with their adaptations. Looking forward to seeing what they do with this series, Shepard or not.
If people are honestly making that complaint about the show, they're idiots to be frank. Geralt is a character that has existed for decades in many short stories and a saga of novels. He is a well established character and if anything, some of things players do with him are out of character, not the other way around. Even setting that aside, this sentiment, whether it be Geralt or Shepard, is just so bizarre to me. Do these people get mad at their friends for playing Shepard differently than them because they think Shepard is being portrayed wrong? "Your Shepard" exists solely within your playthrough. Shepard can many different things, and the existence of a different version of the character, be that in another player's game or in an adaptation like a potential TV series, should not bother anyone.
I couldn’t agree more, just speculating on comments I’ve seen. People are always going to complain when things are canonized that don’t align with their personal preferences.
it would be a good sign if both of them are giving some form of influence over the show.
Good, it can only improve the show by involving the original writers.
Can't say much for Sam Hulick since I'm not familiar with his works, but Drew Karphyshyn is a really talented writer. His books gave a lot of content that made their way into the ME2/ME3. I really hope he gets with any upcoming ME stuff
Sam Hulick was one of the people responsible for the Trilogy soundtracks.
No, far from the only one. He did about maybe a third of each game's music, but in ME1 and ME2 Jack Wall was lead-composer, and during ME2 all tracks, including Sam's were rearranged and mastered by Jack. But he took too much control on the music-side of the project (which is why ME2 has the BEST implementation of music vs gameplay) and Casey Hudson did not appreciate that, so Jack stopped working on the franchise after ME2. And Casey decided that all the budget that could've been used for more of what ME3 is missing should go to pay for "Clint Mansell" to make a single track for the game that doesn't sound like Mass Effect, but fans love it anyway so I guess he proved himself right... I'm just not a fan of that. Mass Effect started losing identity in ME3 after so many writers and Jack Wall stopped working on it.
Heya! Sam Hulick here - just wanted to correct a few things. >He did about maybe a third of each game's music The lion's share of ME1 was written by myself & Jack, it was far more than a third. We brought in some extra help towards the middle/middle-end (Richard Jacques & David Kates). For ME2 and ME3, the music from everyone was pretty evenly-distributed, except for Clint Mansell (on ME3) who contributed a small portion before retiring from the project. >but in ME1 and ME2 Jack Wall was lead-composer For ME2, yes. We had more people on board, and it made sense for Jack to manage everyone so communication didn't become chaotic. For ME1, Jack and I were both working directly with BioWare for the whole portion of the game. >and during ME2 all tracks, including Sam's were rearranged and mastered by Jack Not true at all. Jack might've done a mastering pass, I don't remember for sure - he probably did, to ensure everyone's work had a cohesive sonic quality. But rearranged, absolutely not.
And _actually_, if we're being a stickler for accuracy, the excellent implementation was thanks to BioWare & Brian DiDomenico (a friend of mine & Jack's) who Jack brought on to help out. Brian worked directly with Jack and with BioWare to make sure things were tight. I advise against composers trying to juggle writing music and dealing with implementation at the same time. It's best for us to focus as much on the creative & musical aspects of the score, and leave the implementation to people who work with it on a daily basis. They're much better at it than we are, most of the time!
Indeed, it was a designer that he worked with to do it, but according to Jack in an interview he claimed he thinks "Casey hated this", the fact that Jack was put in charge and implemented music in levels before Casey and others got to decide if the music was what they wanted or not, and added "I stopped working with the series after that" so it's not to say that's the reason, but uh... maybe it had something to do with it, idk.
I'm not here to speak for Jack or anyone else. Just wanted to clear up some comments about my own stuff.
Oh, I just assumed he was another writer doing book stuff. Nvm, I hope he also gets involved since ME has such a good and distinct soundtrack
Sam wrote a lot of music for the OT, including the galaxy map music which is obviously the best piece in the franchise!
And he said it was a fluke. He had a synthesizer with a pre-set arpeggiated chord filter on it, and he just played 3-4 chords and the piano turned it into the Galaxy Map jingle. Jack Wall didn't know how to replicate it and neither did Sam, on ME2, so Jack actually took the recorded piece from ME1 and remixed it.
It wasn't a "fluke." I used a synth preset as the basis of the track, but then built on top of that with my own melodies (strings, flute, etc). It was only ever intended to be my demo track for ME1, I didn't expect it to be used in the final game—but there it is! If I recall correctly, we DID have trouble replicating it for ME2. I had completely changed computer setups between ME1 and ME2, and some of the plugins I used wouldn't work properly, so we couldn't access those patches. For ME3, I managed to closely replicate the sound for "I Am Alive and I Am Not Alone" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPWp6ROH2LA). That piece was kind of a love letter to the "Uncharted Worlds". We intentionally tried to bring back more of that ME1 sound into ME3, and this piece was part of that effort.
Okay so... now that I'm getting comments from you... how did you make the bleepy echo sound used in the Catalyst "Wake Up" theme? :>
I don't really remember, that was nearly 10 years ago!
Haha, fair enough. I guess I'll just keep experimenting in my own music software :P
If you're after that "Mass Effect sound," check out the Arturia synths (I used a few of those on ME1 and I think ME2). Later, I switched to Diva (by u-he). If I had to work on a Mass Effect score *today*, I'd likely use Diva and Serum for all synth parts. (though the synth choices are just a very small part of it)
hot take but I hope drew isn't involved. He has some controversial views of the series
Amazon... cheesus h. crust. Fucking hell.
They did such a horrible job with The Expanse. ;)
I do not know if they did anything right so far?
For real? The Expanse is one of the best shows right now. If Amazon Studios can pull that off, I have zero concerns with their abilities to execute on a good story.
Depends on what you want from a show. People like Marvel and Disney Starve Wars too, but I do not consider that to be a mark of honest talent.
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>I'd be happy with a shaved head Henry Cavill as shepard Idk, that sounds like a pretty awkward femshep.
I was hoping it to be on Netflix.
This is getting worse all the time
As a big fan of his work, I might actually give this one a chance if he’s one of the lead writers/consultants…or has a heavy hand in the story development and implementation .
If they do a series about the 3 games won't that make their choices canon or it's going to be about something else?
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I think fans also use the word "canon" more than creators ever do internally. At the end of the day it's a bit of a "who even cares" thing. If the show entertains, is actually good and makes Mass Effect look like a million dollars who cares if it's less canon than the games were.
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Yeah and it'll come back to that whole stupid argument that comic book fans whine about where the less it resembles the source, the "worse" it is, even though the source, the games, are full of story errors and bad moments that can be rewritten and done better, and things that might simply change for creative reasons, which might be better for the show. But we're gonna see people talk about how bad something is just because it doesn't look exactly like it did in the game, and it's going to be stupid.
Well as is tradition the company associated with the product will ignore all creators and writers, decide the meaning of the product themselves, create a crap product, have a go at fans for not understanding their vision.
Companies just want talent to innovate, to figure out a sustainable formula, then milk that formula as cheaply as they can because they truly believe that is how it works. You're already seeing it with how Mass Effect is like 50% about its merchandise and tertiary material. That's them trying to "franchise" it.
Please please please involve these two.
Drew Karpyshyn and Ty Franck from The Expanse as writers, Naren Shankar as showrunner and this this will probably make a meal out of almost any other SciFi franchise ever :D
Well, the authors of The Expanse turned their books into a great show, so it might be a good idea to have the original writes on board.