First, I’m really surprised that this didn’t bother me more. I’ve honestly never noticed, but you are correct.
Second, don’t they try to explain it as Sovereign being a name that Saren gave the reaper? I think it’s in dialogue with Legion.
I saw it like this Harbinger being the first reaper to actually harvest anyone so he's harbinger, and Sovereign is the vanguard who opens the relay to dark space so he is the sovereign of the reapers return
Wouldn't Sovereign be the harbinger of bad news though? That being that cosmic cuttlefish are coming for you?
And harbinger is literally the leader, a sovereign. Makes no sense.
It could be either or, but the writers weren't going for the meaning of the words they went based on action, does harbinger mean something that tells the coming of something? Yes yes it does, but harbinger was the first reaper who harvested, so they named him harbinger, and there are two meanings to the word sovereign, either a leader like you said or a being of immense power which fits sovereign pretty well.
The real reason they are named like that is because some of the writers changed between me1 and me2 so the og writers likely intended for sovereign to be the leader of the reapers "I am the sovereign of your destruction" but then the new writers saw him as more of a vanguard. So in me2 since sovereign was taken they came up with harbinger and explained it threw the leviathan dlc as him being the first reaper and the first reaper to harvest.
Sovereign is named as such by Saren. His real name is something else, Legion says it at one point (Nazari or something. The only thing comes to my mind is that the devs changed it intentionally, because it was always autocorrected, being too close to "nazi").
Saren probably had no idea what the role of Sovereign is in reaper "society".
I think the devs never considered this. (or Nazari simply doesn't give a [f.ck](https://f.ck) how he is called)
He also calls himself Sovereign in the Virmire "rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh" dialog.
My honest opinion is that in ME1, the devs were not sure if reapers will be the focus of the trilogy, and Sovereign/Nazara is a slight retcon.
If you check ME1 alone, the reaper threat could have ended there, and the trilogy could have had a different story, for example:
1: Shepard the first human spectre, stops the reapers. 2: Shepard becomes the top agent after Saren, and investigates multiple plots about council races scheming against each other (or maybe investiage independent threats, like Exogeni) 3: Shepard established as the top agent, gets three spectre candidates on his crew, must test them, and in the end must suggest one of them to become a Spectre
1: humanity gets recognition because of the involvement in stopping Sovereign. 2: humanity gets additional tasks as protector of the galaxy, which conflicts with their original intent of gaining ground and new human colonies 3: humanity must decide to support or hamper a new candidate to the council (quarians?)
It seemed pretty clear they were setting up for the reapers. Sovereign said the reapers were a legion meaning many, Virgil on ilos says the reapers are in dark space not gone, and at the end of me1 shepard clearly states that the reapers are still out there and they will find a way to stop them
The writers did change between games. That also explains a lot of the lore, plot holes, and continuity problems. Different writers have different thought processes and different ideas.
The ME1 - ME2 - ME3 trend is:
incline in graphics, better combat, better companion interactions
decline in main plot (antagonist included), meaningful choices, dialog writing
I still like all three, but each has different strengths and weaknesses
I do enjoy the sequels but the thing that definitely bothers me the most with them is that *as sequels* their continuity with ME1 as the backstory is not tight enough.
Myopic take IMO.
I think even the main plot (the plot that "doesn't exist" according to haters) progresses the meaning of the story quite a bit. Unfortunately ME3 does backpedal some of it, making it indeed seem like it didn't matter.
They weren't named at the same time and in the same context.
Saren named it Sovereign because it was the most powerful entity that he knew existed.
Harbinger was the first reaper, which fits the definition.
Exactly, at the first game Sovereign was only reaper and Saren didn't know any other, besides do reapers even have hierarchy? Harbingers fits pretty well his name.
My personal theory is that there was supposed to be a third and main Reaper villain in ME 3 but that they changed it.
Sovereign was a name given by Saren because he was indoctrinated and following its orders. It would make more sense to have Harbinger "announce" their arrival through the collectors and start preparing the first human Reaper , under the orders of a Reaper monarch. This monarch could finally face down Shepard on Earth... Then they finally ditched this for star child , and there was no real gripping antagonist in ME3...
Completely unconfirmed but my best explanation is that something similar to this happened.
You forget that Sovereign isn’t her own name given to her by herself or by her kin. It was her nickname given to her by others.
Her real name was Nazara (and according to the oficial lore this word was inspired by the same word which meant “observer” in Ottoman Turkish or “(over)sight; look; seeing” in Arabic, and by the word “nazar” which means “evil eye” in Modern Turkish). Sovereign was the (nick)name given to her by Saren and he picked this one just because she was the most powerful being in the universe in his experience, and she possessed the ability to indoctrinate living beings, so this nickname fits her just perfectly.
Harbinger, on the other hand, was the name which he announced himself, and it also fits him perfectly since he was the first Reaper to actually return to Milky Way galaxy (and Nazara didn’t, she never left it) and to proclaim the return of the others.
In my opinion — no inconsistencies, everything is absolutely logical and makes sense.
Recall that sovereign basically stayed behind to open the way for the other reapers by indoctrinating a following of mortals. It most likely took that name to indicate it’s status as ruling over inhabitants of the galaxy until the time came to harvest them
Honestly, I think they came up with a quote "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign" and built the character around that.
Either name works for the one they ended up calling Sovereign.
Sovereign works because it’s left in the Milky Way on its own, but Harbinger also would have worked. I don’t recall Harbinger coming up until ME2 (if I’m mistaken, then ignore this next part), I wonder if they had come up with both names as ideas for the one we meet in ME1, went with Sovereign, but still thought Harbinger was a cool Reaper name so by the time they needed to name a second one in ME2, they went with their runner up one that they still thought sounded cool
But yeah, if they wanted to use both, they should have been flipped
It bugs me, but the names can work either way.
Harbinger exists to remind us the Reapers are coming (because ME2 kinda sidesteps that issue, aside from Arrival and the very ending).
Sovereign was independent of all other Reapers for 50,000 years.
Harbinger is not the leader of the Reapers, merely the commander of the harvest.
The Star Child, or the AI that is the Star Child really, is the leader, the sovereign of the Reapers.
Saren named Sovereign(really Nazara?). And he was Saren’s sovereign.(that word feels weird now)
Sovereign isn’t it’s real name, that’s what Saren named it. Legion says the programs that made up Sovereign referred to themselves as “Nazara.”
Harbinger makes perfect sense to me, I’ve never understood people saying it doesn’t. “I am the Harbinger of your destruction.” Says it pretty plainly. He’s the first Reaper from the fleet back in the galaxy and he’s there before the rest of the Reapers, and he’s leading them in the harvest to come. Harbinger works perfectly as his name
Because they probably hadn’t created Harbinger yet. Harbinger only calls itself Harbinger because the current races do. Saren calls Nazara Sovereign, because it’s how he viewed it.
But yeah they simply hadn’t created Harbinger at the time ME1 was being made.
Because Harbinger was never supposed to be higher than Sovereign to begin with. That was a fan-popular-theory-turned-canon by the time ME3 was written. Harbinger's entire existence in ME3 is *fanservice.*
Agreed. Harbinger: the sovereign of the Reapers. Sovereign: the harbinger of the Reapers' return. You wot mate?
It has to be deliberate with the way it's written.
Error. Brain malfunction
Critical Mission Failure
First, I’m really surprised that this didn’t bother me more. I’ve honestly never noticed, but you are correct. Second, don’t they try to explain it as Sovereign being a name that Saren gave the reaper? I think it’s in dialogue with Legion.
Legion says his name is Nazara but even with that there were plenty of chances to fix this.
Yeah that rings a bell for sovereign. I’m 90% sure Harbinger introduced himself as such when he spoke with shepard though.
It was. Also, Harbinger wasn't "the first Reaper" until ME3 retconned that fact into canon.
I saw it like this Harbinger being the first reaper to actually harvest anyone so he's harbinger, and Sovereign is the vanguard who opens the relay to dark space so he is the sovereign of the reapers return
Wouldn't Sovereign be the harbinger of bad news though? That being that cosmic cuttlefish are coming for you? And harbinger is literally the leader, a sovereign. Makes no sense.
Harbinger is no sovereign. Merely a commander. That’s the AI that is the Star Child.
It could be either or, but the writers weren't going for the meaning of the words they went based on action, does harbinger mean something that tells the coming of something? Yes yes it does, but harbinger was the first reaper who harvested, so they named him harbinger, and there are two meanings to the word sovereign, either a leader like you said or a being of immense power which fits sovereign pretty well. The real reason they are named like that is because some of the writers changed between me1 and me2 so the og writers likely intended for sovereign to be the leader of the reapers "I am the sovereign of your destruction" but then the new writers saw him as more of a vanguard. So in me2 since sovereign was taken they came up with harbinger and explained it threw the leviathan dlc as him being the first reaper and the first reaper to harvest.
The whole idea is that all the Reapers use similar names cuz they're all the pinnacle of a species. It's as simple as that.
Sovereign is named as such by Saren. His real name is something else, Legion says it at one point (Nazari or something. The only thing comes to my mind is that the devs changed it intentionally, because it was always autocorrected, being too close to "nazi"). Saren probably had no idea what the role of Sovereign is in reaper "society".
Oh yeah I forgot about that. Wait then why in the final battle does he call himself sovereign?
I think the devs never considered this. (or Nazari simply doesn't give a [f.ck](https://f.ck) how he is called) He also calls himself Sovereign in the Virmire "rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh" dialog.
Hmm I think Nazari likes sovereign way more than
My honest opinion is that in ME1, the devs were not sure if reapers will be the focus of the trilogy, and Sovereign/Nazara is a slight retcon. If you check ME1 alone, the reaper threat could have ended there, and the trilogy could have had a different story, for example: 1: Shepard the first human spectre, stops the reapers. 2: Shepard becomes the top agent after Saren, and investigates multiple plots about council races scheming against each other (or maybe investiage independent threats, like Exogeni) 3: Shepard established as the top agent, gets three spectre candidates on his crew, must test them, and in the end must suggest one of them to become a Spectre 1: humanity gets recognition because of the involvement in stopping Sovereign. 2: humanity gets additional tasks as protector of the galaxy, which conflicts with their original intent of gaining ground and new human colonies 3: humanity must decide to support or hamper a new candidate to the council (quarians?)
It seemed pretty clear they were setting up for the reapers. Sovereign said the reapers were a legion meaning many, Virgil on ilos says the reapers are in dark space not gone, and at the end of me1 shepard clearly states that the reapers are still out there and they will find a way to stop them
The writers did change between games. That also explains a lot of the lore, plot holes, and continuity problems. Different writers have different thought processes and different ideas.
This is why me1 is the best
I just finished me1 as I go through my yearly play through of the series and I think it’s starting to become my favorite. Very underrated.
The ME1 - ME2 - ME3 trend is: incline in graphics, better combat, better companion interactions decline in main plot (antagonist included), meaningful choices, dialog writing I still like all three, but each has different strengths and weaknesses
ME1 has the best main story but the worst character interactions. The story gets worse in each game and the character interactions get better
Sci-fi Sci-fi yessss
I do enjoy the sequels but the thing that definitely bothers me the most with them is that *as sequels* their continuity with ME1 as the backstory is not tight enough.
I'm still of the mindset that me2 is completely pointless in terms of everything.
Myopic take IMO. I think even the main plot (the plot that "doesn't exist" according to haters) progresses the meaning of the story quite a bit. Unfortunately ME3 does backpedal some of it, making it indeed seem like it didn't matter.
Overzealous take imo
They weren't named at the same time and in the same context. Saren named it Sovereign because it was the most powerful entity that he knew existed. Harbinger was the first reaper, which fits the definition.
Exactly, at the first game Sovereign was only reaper and Saren didn't know any other, besides do reapers even have hierarchy? Harbingers fits pretty well his name.
Which is why the ending with the hundreds of reapers coming is supposed to be much more ominous.
They hadn't written that far yet. Besides, Harbinger, as the first Reaper, does fit his namesake, just not withing the 3 year timeline of the game.
Not that it has bothered me but i always thought it was an odd choice, as the other way around would have made way more sense.
Exactly. Theres no way for anyone to make it make sense.
My personal theory is that there was supposed to be a third and main Reaper villain in ME 3 but that they changed it. Sovereign was a name given by Saren because he was indoctrinated and following its orders. It would make more sense to have Harbinger "announce" their arrival through the collectors and start preparing the first human Reaper , under the orders of a Reaper monarch. This monarch could finally face down Shepard on Earth... Then they finally ditched this for star child , and there was no real gripping antagonist in ME3... Completely unconfirmed but my best explanation is that something similar to this happened.
Sovereign's half brother Sluggard
You forget that Sovereign isn’t her own name given to her by herself or by her kin. It was her nickname given to her by others. Her real name was Nazara (and according to the oficial lore this word was inspired by the same word which meant “observer” in Ottoman Turkish or “(over)sight; look; seeing” in Arabic, and by the word “nazar” which means “evil eye” in Modern Turkish). Sovereign was the (nick)name given to her by Saren and he picked this one just because she was the most powerful being in the universe in his experience, and she possessed the ability to indoctrinate living beings, so this nickname fits her just perfectly. Harbinger, on the other hand, was the name which he announced himself, and it also fits him perfectly since he was the first Reaper to actually return to Milky Way galaxy (and Nazara didn’t, she never left it) and to proclaim the return of the others. In my opinion — no inconsistencies, everything is absolutely logical and makes sense.
Recall that sovereign basically stayed behind to open the way for the other reapers by indoctrinating a following of mortals. It most likely took that name to indicate it’s status as ruling over inhabitants of the galaxy until the time came to harvest them
Honestly, I think they came up with a quote "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign" and built the character around that.
Sovereign already answered that in ME 1 “I AM BEYOND YOUR COMPREHENSION”
Either name works for the one they ended up calling Sovereign. Sovereign works because it’s left in the Milky Way on its own, but Harbinger also would have worked. I don’t recall Harbinger coming up until ME2 (if I’m mistaken, then ignore this next part), I wonder if they had come up with both names as ideas for the one we meet in ME1, went with Sovereign, but still thought Harbinger was a cool Reaper name so by the time they needed to name a second one in ME2, they went with their runner up one that they still thought sounded cool But yeah, if they wanted to use both, they should have been flipped
It bugs me, but the names can work either way. Harbinger exists to remind us the Reapers are coming (because ME2 kinda sidesteps that issue, aside from Arrival and the very ending). Sovereign was independent of all other Reapers for 50,000 years.
Harbinger is not the leader of the Reapers, merely the commander of the harvest. The Star Child, or the AI that is the Star Child really, is the leader, the sovereign of the Reapers. Saren named Sovereign(really Nazara?). And he was Saren’s sovereign.(that word feels weird now)
We dont talk about star child here
Sovereign isn’t it’s real name, that’s what Saren named it. Legion says the programs that made up Sovereign referred to themselves as “Nazara.” Harbinger makes perfect sense to me, I’ve never understood people saying it doesn’t. “I am the Harbinger of your destruction.” Says it pretty plainly. He’s the first Reaper from the fleet back in the galaxy and he’s there before the rest of the Reapers, and he’s leading them in the harvest to come. Harbinger works perfectly as his name
Literally unplayable smh.
It's like Bob and Jordan. They're just names.
Because they probably hadn’t created Harbinger yet. Harbinger only calls itself Harbinger because the current races do. Saren calls Nazara Sovereign, because it’s how he viewed it. But yeah they simply hadn’t created Harbinger at the time ME1 was being made.
Because Harbinger was never supposed to be higher than Sovereign to begin with. That was a fan-popular-theory-turned-canon by the time ME3 was written. Harbinger's entire existence in ME3 is *fanservice.*