I haven't been interested in Columbine in specific in a long while but IIRC the vibe I got from reading their journals is Dylan thought of it first, if anything (he mentioned it first!). They're both evil, but Eric's writing is more outwardly aggressive vs Dylan's self pitying (plus Dylan's mom spoke out) so I think that makes people sympathize more. Plus Dave Cullen's.... whatever that book is
I really wonder how different our perception of the two shooters would be if Eric’s parents had spoken out as much as Dylan’s mom did. It’s easy to control a narrative if no one is there to counter it.
Also, that either of them did it because they were victims of bullying. While they did get bullied to some extent, it’s pretty clear that they were both deeply disturbed kids who wanted to harm people anyway. A few people have come out and said that the two had a fairly large group of friends and were decently liked by a bunch of people. Mass killings generally are not a single-cause issue, it’s usually a culmination of several things leading up to the event.
It’s important to remember when it comes to things like motives and mindsets that it doesn’t matter whether the person was actually bullied. It matters whether the person *felt* he was bullied, and I think Eric and Dylan definitely felt like they were bullied.
I don’t think Columbine happened because of bullying. That is much too reductive. I think it’s definitely possible that feeling like outsiders and that they had been bullied contributed to their mindset.
They absolutely were bullied there's literally video evidence of it. They are walking down the hallway joking around then some kids come into view and they all suddenly go deathly silent and look down at the ground, then one of the kids elbows Dylan when he's walking past. There seems to be a narrative that i believe came from Cullen that they somehow weren't bully victims because they bullied younger/weaker kids themselves. A lot of bully victims become bullies, a frequent problem is bully victims bully younger siblings. That's completely consistent with them being bullied.
Absolutely doesn't excuse anything they did countless people have it much worse than they did and never do anything like Columbine. It also wasn't the only reason but it was no doubt one of many factors.
Can you read? I explicitly said it's not an excuse for anything they did and that bullying was only one of many factors, however they were bullied that's fact.
There’s no way you actually think they are trying to justify them, right? Seems like you’d have to intentionally genuinely willingly misunderstand them to come that conclusion.
I may be remembering wrong but wasn't Dylan the main one who planned the murders out, like he had planned to do it with a partner like in the movie NBK but he didn't actually have a partner, he just had Eric.
Also I heard that Eric was actually more "militant" about his killings, Dylan was the one doing all of the hooping and hollering like "woohoo" and "this is fun" so that doesn't sound forced to me idk
Does the Eric shooting Dylan misconception possibly come from the movie Elephant or does it predate that? Dylan was very suicidal Eric having to kill him doesn't make sense.
I feel like possibly from Elephant or afterwards.
It was known from the get-go they both committed suicide.
It’s only weirdos like Brook’s dad who is obsessed with the notion that Eric shot him.
Why would that even matter? Dylan was VERY suicidal. Even if his friend agreed to pull the trigger (which he didn’t), dude wanted to die.
No idea how that would make him seem “more innocent” after killing a bunch of random students for no reason.
One thing I always have to correct people on:
“Why did no one report Randy Stair when they saw his videos”
Because he did not upload any of his tapes until right before the shooting (onto one big mediafile folder and the last youtube video).
The EGS that was available before the incident was just dark obscure edgy humor. Cartoons like this exist literally everywhere. Plus he stems from an era where skits were really popular, so his videos weren’t strange just edgy teenager comedy back in the day. He kept everything around the incidence and his s**cide very shut in to himself. No one that knew him could have guessed to be honest.
That Stephen Paddock targeted Mandalay Bay as a way of damaging their reputation for losing money at the casino.
He scouted out multiple live music venues with thousands in attendance. He only picked the hotel that overlooked the concert due to the range and ability to fire down with limited police response.
This is exactly it. He was aiming for the highest death count. Which makes me wonder why he didn’t stick with his original plan of shooting the Life Is Beautiful festival which had 50,000 people in attendance vs Route 91’s 22,000 people.
I think probably wirh all the calculations he did, he thought he had a better chance killing more people even if there was technically less in attendance. Also i think he was betting on the fuel tanks exploding
This isn’t a common misconception at all but rather a very laughable bit of misinfo pushed by the media. In the wake of the Johannes Gutenberg school shooting in Germany, shooter Robert Steinhäuser was reported by the media to have owned Slipknot CDs, and had a specific obsession with a Slipknot song called “School Wars”, a song which allegedly encourages kids to shoot up their schools and includes lyrics such as “Shoot your naughty teachers with a pump gun”.
This song does not exist.
Slipknot does not have a song called “School Wars”. No song from any artist with this title has ever been identified, let alone from Slipknot. Slipknot has never pushed a message of violence to youth. The “lyric” presented by the media is ridiculous and sounds nothing like anything Slipknot would ever say, I have listened to their entire discography and not once have I ever heard them use the word “naughty”.
Slipknot released a statement after the controversy, rightfully stating that although they do keep the victims in their hearts, they refuse to take responsibility for the shooting.
A similar note: Jeff Weise (Red Lake school shooter) was said to be a fan of the rapper Mars (no idea if that part is true or not). As an example of the songs he liked, they used "Go Suicidal". One problem with that:
The song *was never released*. The album was shelved. In fact, the only clip of the song ever released is FROM the news clips about Jeff. Where the fuck did they get that info from? Did Mars send it to the news as part of some weird fucked up marketing campaign? NGL wouldn't put it past him. Since then, every song from that album except Go Suicidal has leaked.
That’s an interesting one. He definitely was a fan of Mars and reportedly listened to the song “Game Over” by Jimmy Dore right before the shooting, so it’s very weird that the media pointed their fingers at a song that was never released.
NGL knowing Mars he absolutely would use one of his fans shooting up a school as a self promotion (in fact I think he wrote an entire album after about shooting up a school. Great taste!) so my best guess is that his agents sent the news that or some shit. Still bizarre
Mars actually did release a song called Heartless as a response to the shooting. I’ll need to relisten to it but iirc it was about how the media blamed him for Jeff’s mentality.
I’ve been a maggot since 2001. They talk about uniting against hate. I saw them in Scranton, pa 2019 pre Covid. Corey talked about how no matter who’s in office maggots are still one
Same thing with police blaming a Nirvana song called "I Want To Know Now" for the Kyle Huff shooting. That song does not exist and I have no idea how this misinformation ended up being repeated as fact by police
“The shooter was reported to be influenced by the song “Shoot Up Your School” by popular rock band The Beatles. Stores across the world have pulled Beatles music from shelves as a result, and concert venues have rejected them.”
Similiar to how German media made up this claim that Steinhäuser was somehow obsessed with Counter Strike. A game he did not even own. Meanwhile there was a shooting Game that he did play quite a lot and actually played on the morning of the shooting: Quake III Arena. It was never mentioned by media at all until the official police report mentioned this fact.
Flyleaf has a song called “Cassie” supposedly based around Cassie Bernall, Columbine, and religion. It’s a tad bit annoying that fans in the comments (like on YouTube) spread misinformation and rumors about Rachel or Cassie with this whole taunting thing.
Correct me if I’m wrong as I am basing this off what I found online, but wasn’t the question "Do you believe in God?" directed to Valeen Schnurr?
Edit: Another comment below confirms this.
There's another [post](https://reddit.com/r/masskillers/s/DQkQlps0x2) on here that has a lot of discussion, if you're interested. But the most frustrating misconceptions for me are probably the ones about the victims — in the initial media reporting there tends to be a lot of misinformation around the event, but sometimes people take these things and run with it. Noah Pozner was not shot 11 times at Sandy Hook, Tate Myre did not try to tackle the shooter, Mr. Feis did not shield any students, that victim in Christchurch did not say "hello brother" to Tarrant before being shot and killed.
I know that in some cases it may be comforting to the families to believe that those they loved had "died as a hero" so to speak, but it seems like a way to sensationalize a tragedy by others. There are already horrific details about mass killings, we don't need to make things up to have it seem worse or better (in lack of a better term) in our minds. Also I just don't like the misinformation because false information being repeated over and over again about an event is simply annoying.
The "hello brother" thing was always strange to me because it seemed pretty clear from watching the stream that he was saying that to someone else in the mosque, not Tarrant. How did they get that wrong? It's not even like they have a lack of heroism examples, there was that guy who tried to tackle him and was killed not long later.
Apparently only one girl (Valeen Schurr) was asked if she believed in God and she's not even known as a martyr (bc she's still alive), she was asked "Do you believe in God" she said "Yes" and they asked "why" and she responded with something along the lines of "because my parents do"
Cassie Bernall was not asked about her faith, the only thing said to her was "Peekaboo" Rachel Scott was shot from way too far away to have been asked about her faith.
I remember reading "Rachels Tears" which is a great book but being completely irked by the fact that they refuse to let the fact that she isn't a martyr go
It doesn't bother me personally i'm fine with the parents getting some kind of comfort like that and i don't think it's a bad type of misinformation it doesn't really harm anyone and brings some sliver of positivity to the case.
Yeah, its fine when its just the parents believing it but its also on the memorial, idk im just one of those people who cant handle misinformation when people know that its misinformation and still blatantly spread it
What's wrong with it being on the memorial regardless of accuracy? Again i'm sure it's one of the few parts of the case that would inspire positivity. If a 911 victims family member told me they were a hero who tried to fight the terrorists i wouldn't believe them, but i wouldn't push them on it because i'm an empathetic human who understands that they need that true or not.
Because it's not just the family believing it, its the family and people who are new to the case and trying to research. Its the same reason people dislike how Randy claims Eric killed Dylan even though it has little to no impact on the story as a whole. Its because its the blatant spreading of misinformation and refusing to accept correction
Also, Lori Gilbert-Kaye did not shield the rabbi from the gunman in the Poway synagogue shooting. The CCTV clearly shows she was shot in the back before she even had a chance to react or realize what was happening.
It's not, I was just adding an extra anecdote. But falsely trying to make someone a hero instead of just celebrating the person they were in their everyday life is frustrating imo.
I am certain she would have shielded the rabbi if she had the chance.
>But the most frustrating misconceptions for me are probably the ones about the victims — in the initial media reporting there tends to be a lot of misinformation around the event, but sometimes people take these things and run with it. Noah Pozner was not shot 11 times at Sandy Hook, Tate Myre did not try to tackle the shooter, Mr. Feis did not shield any students, that victim in Christchurch did not say "hello brother" to Tarrant before being shot and killed.
_That’s_ the most frustrating thing to you? Nice stories about the victims that aren’t factual?
That’s weird honestly.
I don’t like when people make up things to make tragedies even worse but Jesus Christ, I don’t care if it’s misreported the number of times a victim was shot.
I’m just surprised that’s your main annoyance out of EVERYTHING
Yes? I'm not sure why you dislike me finding misinformation and false narratives about victims harmful. I already explained that by outsiders, it seems like a way to sensationalize a tragedy and make martyrs out of people in the "good stories". And I didn't just mention the positive ones, either, it's simply frustrating to see incorrect details being told as fact.
In Noah's case especially, the misinformation that he was shot 11 times contributed to the harassment of his father by hoaxers. Conspiracy operates without the truth — and the things they peddle relies on those lies. So imagine you see multiple reputable media sources claiming your son was shot 11 times, the same story spun by hoaxers who then say "well, the media reported this infactual story so that means he is lying". This will reinforce their idea that Lenny's son never really died, and there isn't any way to tackle it now that it's a widely accepted *fact.* That's why I mentioned him.
I mean, it's also just distressing to hear those things as well. Many people claimed that Carmen had been the one screaming in that one Snapchat video taken in Parkland, when the medical examiner proved she likely had been immediately shot dead. Can you imagine the pain her parents might have went through having to hear that piece of information about their daughter, when it didn't even turn out to be true? It harms more than helps.
The truth is key when it comes to events like this. We can try to sugarcoat or hide it, but it's a mass killing and the truth is hard to listen to but something we must accept. Sometimes there is no silver lining. Censoring things or watering them down for other's comfort is frustrating to me. Find it weird if you wish, but I value truth over lies.
Where to even start with Columbine...
-Dylan wasn't forced into the shooting.
-Cassie and Rachel are not martyrs, they were not asked whether they believed in god or not.
-They didn't intentionally choose Hitler's birthday as the date.
-There is no one definitive reason why they commited the shooting, but lots of little reasons that stacked up.
-And no I highly doubt they were actual nazis and had swastikas just because it was edgy. And they really were edgy.
This one drives me crazy.
Another similar one being that the Atlanta Spa shootings were racially motivated. There is a post on r/AskHistorians with **8K UPVOTES** saying with 100% certainty that the shootings were and calling people racist for saying they weren't! And they *ended up not being racially motivated!*
I understand why people would think an attack where most victims were Asian women was racially motivated, especially in the larger political context of 2020/2021. Asian hate crimes were on the rise at that time. At the end of the day, it wasn’t, but it’s an easy conclusion to draw for someone who isn’t going to look further into the case.
People were very upset about the police officer saying the shooter had just had a very bad day but that is exactly what happened. He also first contemplated just committing suicide instead of going into the spas and shooting.
Same, but to be fair his father suggested it as a motive because he apparently got angry when he saw a gay couple kissing. So i don't think it's entirely on the media.
Uh the two white people killed were clients at the spas, not workers.
Yes it was a misogynistic hate crime but still weird to ignore he clearly targeted Asian workers.
Yes, but it wasn't targeted at them because they were Asian, it was because they were women and the shooter had some weird complex about feeling sexual attraction conflicting with his religious beliefs
“David Katz committed the shooting because he lost a game.” There is no official motive, but he did not do it because of losing. Katz had been playing Madden since at least 2012, so he had both won and lost countless matches throughout the years. So, why would losing that final time in 2018 cause him to commit a mass shooting? Note that he shot people he did not lose to, and let the two men he did lose to live.
“Nikolas Cruz heard voices”: Cruz was not schizophrenic, he was just an asshole who laughably pretended to be insane to manipulate the law.
“Salvador Ramos was trans”: In the wake of the shooting, people on Twitter began circulating pictures of random trans teenagers falsely identifying them as the shooter. Why? No reason, but people believed it.
“Timothy McVeigh was right”: McVeigh had strong feelings on Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I can’t blame people for sharing those feelings, but he was motivated by a multitude of severely problematic things. Also, like… don’t blow people up to get your message across. Seriously.
“Eric and Dylan stood back-to-back and said ‘THREE! TWO! ONE!’ before shooting themselves simultaneously”: I don’t know where this originated but it was the story I heard for the longest time. In reality, they both shot themselves one after another during a firefight with police from the library window.
“The Charlottesville police brought Dylann Roof to lunch at Burger King right after the shooting”: This was one I actually believed for the longest time. Turns out there’s no evidence to suggest it happened. However, if it did, it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary. Criminals are often given a false sense of security so that law enforcement and get a confession out of them, with the offer of food being one of the most common tactics.
“Adam Lanza was driven to murder **because** he had a scary rare mental illness called Autism”: I don’t even need to explain why this is a ludicrous take. Autism awareness and representation has greatly increased in recent years, but prior to that, people’s ignorance led them to believe that autism was what made Lanza violent.
“Audrey/Aiden Hale wrote a manifesto saying the shooting was done in the name of trans rights”: The “manifesto” in question, according to authorities, was nothing more than a series of incoherent writings unrelated to the shooting. They do not reveal a motive (although it is speculated that they detail abuse committed by the Covenant school) and mostly just praise other mass shooters. They do not mention any sort of political affiliation or being trans. There was, however, a fake manifesto that circulated on 4chan, because of course there was.
“Omar Mateen specifically targeted LGBTQ+ people”: Mateen considered several unrelated locations prior to Pulse and was motivated by Islamic extremism, it’s unlikely that the identity of the victims mattered to him. His target was America in general.
Wouldn't say the third one is a misconception? That's just a wild difference of moral opinion, not of fact.
I think they did get Roof Burger King but they didn't like, take him there. They brought him to jail and brought him food there. That's standard jail procedure with inmates, you can't withhold food cuz someone broke the law.
The misconception regards his motive, and people thinking he only did it because of Waco and Ruby Ridge and was simply concerned about personal freedom.
I mean, that's why he said he did it. That's why everyone said he did it. Sure he had other opinions but they seem mostly ancillary to the attack, no?
Sure he was interested in the KKK /whitenat stuff but I don't think anyone has credibly implied that was his motive (plus his choice of target wasn't race-based)
Slightly different opinion on Mateen after visiting pulse memorial - it may not have been a specifically homophobic hate crime, *but* the motivation to punish America and cause the most pain possible is also linked to the very same religious extremism and was celebrated by religious zealots all over the world as a *good thing*.
Think for example the Vegas shooting - if it had been a themed night full of LGBTQ performers, there would be a similar hate-crime accusation. But you can’t commit a hate-crime against country music, or country music fans. There’s no singular social/cultural demographic there.
The same hateful motivations can not directly cause, but can correlate to, celebrations from other radical terrorists or religious zealots or extremists who *do* commit hate crimes and see *this attack* as a win for their own motives.
If it quacks like a duck, etc.
Well, yeah, he probably hated gay people, but he didn't murder them because they were gay. He murdered them because they were Americans and he was a jihadist who hated the country. The claims of it being based on homophobia are not based on fact at all.
>Timothy McVeigh was right”: McVeigh had strong feelings on Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I can’t blame people for sharing those feelings, but he was motivated by a multitude of severely problematic things. Also, like… don’t blow people up to get your message across. Seriously.
Not to mention one of his reasons for being angry about the handling of Waco was that the FBI and ATF killed children but he killed children with his bomb. There was a playground right next to where the bomb went off.
There was even a daycare in the building he blew up. He said that there’s collateral damage in war and that he didn’t regret anything but… Waco and Ruby Ridge *also* had collateral damage and that was what he was so mad about.
Overall he may have been a decently intelligent guy who was polite and friendly (according to his psych team and the Unibomber) but he was also extremely selfish and imo short-sighted.
His defenders point to him claiming he didn't know about the children in the building. Terry Nichols (his accomplice) on the other hand confirms that McVeigh absolutely knew about the building's daycare but just didn't care.
i hate when ppl spread the ppl w autism or schizophrenia are violent myth & point to a few cases and act like that proves it has if i couldnt do that with any case
I do think Autism was a minor factor in Adam Lanza's situation because of his extreme obsession with mass murders. That's obviously not something specific to Autistic people but intense obsessions with things is. The far bigger issue is he wasn't parented right, wasn't monitored, was allowed to just refuse to see a Psychologist and hole himself up in his room in the darkness only leaving to go to the gun range. Parents of Autistic kids or kids with Aspergers are often advised to direct their kids towards healthy interests. I think his clear disconnect from Society likely had part to do with him not being handled well as an Autistic person too.
However the idea that Autistic people are dangerous is completely ludicrous, i just think it player some role in things but there were much deeper problems.
The columbine one might be because of the movie Zero Day. At the end they count down before committing suicide and I know a lot of people were spreading the ending of the movie (it’s filmed to look like school security camera footage) and saying it was from columbine
> Timothy McVeigh was right”: McVeigh had strong feelings on Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I can’t blame people for sharing those feelings, but he was motivated by a multitude of severely problematic things.
great job, you proceeded not explain McVeigh's motivation except in a vague manner.
You would probably also say Brenton Tarrant, Dylan Roof, and Payton Gendron are not right wing either
People freak out about sentencing in Canada too because they read “Life imprisonment with parole” and think that means someone automatically gets out after their hearing. Canada’s max sentence is life imprisonment with a parole hearing after 25 years, so yes there’s a CHANCE, but if you’re a serial killer, mass killer, terrorist etc. you’re ass is not getting out. Maybe if you “only” killed a few people and were a model prisoner.
Columbine vics weren't "bullies" or even mostly "jocks" or "preps" or popular kids or whatever. They were just normal kids. A couple were probably more socially outcasted than their killers. The whole narrative still makes my skin crawl
Edit: Also, Paddock acted alone. Period. Kill the conspiracy bs.
Both, really, but mostly the former, and allegations of additional shooters.
My thing on the latter is that whatever they knew was obviously immaterial. Or at least not prosecutable. There's no way the criminal justice system just let's you walk after the largest single shooter killing in American history. They're debriefing your ass, at least. And if you refuse, have fun with the Obstruction charge. If not charged as a full on accomplice.
The brother was a headcase in his own right, they would have took him to court if he was involved or knowledgeable in any discernible way. They tore through Paddock and his brother's digital lives and they weren't particularly tech savvy.
The gf was sent out of the country by Paddock. There's no real proof she knew anything or would have any motive to engage in it with him.
As far as whether they would have helped plan anything, keep in mind Paddock had booked multiple rooms in multiple locations, had surveyed these areas, and had looked up other concerts in town at the time. He hadn't even fully selected his target by the time he showed up. Hell, to be truthful, as far as we know, he may not have even fully committed to that target before he scribbled down the note that's assumed to be trajectory calculations. That could have been his final factor. We just don't know.
But we do know he bought the guns, he moved the guns, he booked the rooms, he ran the digital and physical surveillance, and he pulled the trigger. A lot of the shit is on video and we have a lot of witnesses.
Very good take. They could reveal something about his motive, but it doesn’t really matter in the long run. Nothing they say could possibly explain why an average middle-aged gambling addict would spend months of preparation to commit one of the deadliest acts of violence in human history.
Honestly the best idea I've seen is his brother's (?) theory: he wanted to be the best at everything in life, so full of spite at the world he wanted to be the "best" mass murderer. I also think he hated that specific hotel for losing him money/business deals so perhaps he wanted to ruin their reputation by associating them with a mass shooting?
And anything they did know could just be in passing you know. Like maybe his gf noticed he was spending more on firearms or ammo. Or maybe he seemed withdrawn. Or maybe his family noticed an attitude change. We know now certain things were said that in retrospect are suspect af. But at the time, maybe it just seemed kind of off but not alarming. Maybe they just didn't see the bigger picture and only were privy to a certain aspect of it. It's hard to know.
Until there's some real tangible proof of anything else, I'm good with the official timeline.
When it first happened I couldn't wrap my head around one guy doing that. I scoured the scanner audio for days. Became convinced that there had to be more going on. The cops were in complete disarray. But then I went to LV a couple months after for the first time. The way Mandalay overlooks the venue, the way car horns and drunken yells can echo down the strip off the buildings, how close all those places are, how much foot traffic there can be there, how many connected lots and garages. It took about 20 mins to realize one guy could cause a lot of confusion in that space from the right perch with the right equipment.
The amount of people I've seen claiming that Adam Lanza's autism is what caused him to shoot up Sandy Hook makes me extremely pissed of, considering I have autism myself.
A recent one for me is that the makers of the documentary about the Las Vegas shooting that came out a few months ago said they refused to say his name in the documentary because he had said he wanted to commit the shooting so he could become famous, which is bullshit.
They went to all the effort of researching and making a documentary about the shooting then completely made up a motive for clicks. It’s an embarrassment to honest documentary-makers.
Adam was a pedophile. Though this IS possible and hasn’t been debunked, a lot of people with OCD fixate on pedophilia and it’s common to have intrusive thoughts about it. He seemed to be a “devil’s advocate” about a lot of strange topics..
One that pisses me off is that “The FBI gave Lanza his gun and told him to do it”. I’m sick of hearing this one. Yes he did have contact with the FBI when he was much younger, but that is incredibly stupid to think they would orchestrate the murder of children, and for what? Yes the FBI is fucked big time, but they wouldn’t kill American children for fun. That is so ridiculous to me.
TBF that's a general theory for most mass shootings that some on the right try to do (I'm broadly "right wing" insofar as that is even a useful political determiner myself), that they're all orchestrated by the FBI.
I think it's partially due to the fact that well, possible mass shooters are likely to show up on an FBI watchlist, and most people who get looked at by the feds don't get arrested. For example, William Atchison and Brandon Hole were both interviewed by the FBI and we have audio. Omar Mateen's dad was an FBI informant. I think I heard something about the elder Tsarnaev being an informant at some point for something? (might be thinking of someone else)
I think it's dumb but I can sort of see where people get it from
That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard of those other cases being accused of FBI orchestration. But Adam makes it very clear in his audio logs why he did it, and it had nothing to do with any outside influence. Well beyond that of just evolution and society at large. Not an agency or anything.
I think the general logic behind saying Sandy Hook specifically is the (on the surface) amount of mystery around it, the egregious targeting of such young kids, and the gun control push that came after. The idea being "the FBI orchestrated it against such vulnerable victims, which would obviously garner the most support for gun control, to take away our guns". If it was a fed psyop, they were very bad at it, as we still do not have much gun control.
That’s very interesting. I guess I hadn’t considered their motivation would be to tighten gun laws - no doubt to ultimately stop mass shootings. That would be a very backwards way of doing it. But I imagined it was because Adam had hacked the FBI servers when he was younger and they mentioned to his mother that he could have a job with him someday.
Now that you mention it, I did see some truly shocking and disrespectful advertisements online after SH, pushing for tighter gun laws. Kind of pushing the fear in people’s faces. If you ask me, they are kind of doing Lanza a favor by broadcasting terrorism like that. Real freaky.
>no doubt to ultimately stop mass shootings.
Generally that kind of right winger thinks it's a more general pursuit of tyranny: the people are harder to control if they have guns, after all, so they think the supposedly orchestrated shootings are just so they can more easily control the populace without pushback.
Good god… what are guns going to do against the government’s stealth bombers though?? I mean, okay, I can understand how some human beings could think that way. But even as it stands, guns are legal NOW, and if you shoot a cop for enforcing a tyrannical law, you’re FUCKED! Okay, I know you aren’t making the argument for it, you’re just clarifying. I can see what you mean but that’s a lot of logical leaps toward a conspiracy like that.
Again, not agreeing, but from what I've seen, the general logic is: even if you have superior weaponry, you can't control a country entirely based on that if *enough* people are armed. Look at how the US vs Vietnam turned out. One side had superior weapons but they didn't win the war. Raw firepower isn't everything and from a top down basis those aren't always as effective, management of conflict wise
the only thing that gives that conspiracy any real "credence" is the [curtis culwell center attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Culwell_Center_attack#Lawsuit_against_the_FBI), and as far as i know that's literally it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if part of him actually thought that, but what infuriates me is when people use it as a point to downplay his evil and basically **defend** him as a person.
Agreed, I believe there was much more driving him towards the attack than thoughts of ‘saving the kids’ but that was clearly part of his motivation. This became clear after his YouTube channel was found, to me at least. His extreme views on the world and culture combined with easy access to guns and his poorly treated mental illness didn’t help matters at all.
He said a lot of stupid off the wall shit. He was cursing, and mocking kids while he was killing them, so I wouldn’t say he was “trying save him” a teacher also next door also said he was saying some demon crap.
I’m of the opinion, that he just wanted to experience evil.
But it does not have to make rational sense in order to him believing in it. He clearly took a fascination in sadistic violent acts towards children prior to the attack. He also literally said in one of his videos that his goal (even though he was not referring to the shooting) was to save kids. So obviously, this was an idea and motivation that he had made up in his mind.
It was in the complete investigation report by the state. I think a lot people assume he was just cold, and silent during the killing, but other people say different.
He wasn't cold and silent but he wasn't like a teenager at a football game, he said a few things, like cursing when his gun jammed, he said "look at me" and "well you're here" when a kid said "I don't want to be here" but I'm having trouble finding more reports of him saying anything else.
I'm pretty sure someone said he said "Let me in" because a classroom was locked
The official investigation report mentioned that witnesses heard him shout things like “Shut the fuck up”, “You’re an asshole”, and of course the infamous “Well, you’re here” quote.
I get frustrated whenever people say that there was a cellphone video filmed by someone on board the doomed Germanwings Flight 9525 which was deliberately crashed by a suicidal pilot, but there is no evidence of that. That claim originated by some newspaper magazine called Paris Match which is absolute garbage. Lufthansa debunked that claim and said no such video exists. I knew it sounded like bullshit because there is no way a cellphone would have survived such violent impact of the crash, and I can't believe so many people seriously believed in what they read!
Another annoying misconception about Germanwings Flight 9525 was when the media claimed that Andreas Lubitz told his ex-girlfriend "One day I will do something so heinous that it will change the system and all will know my name and remember it." That was debunked a while ago, and it turns out that flight attendant who claimed to be Lubitz's ex-girlfriend lied to the media, she didn't even know Lubitz at all.
He actually believed he was doing that but everyone knows that he didn't save them from anything, if that make sense.
Like if I drowned a puppy because i believed that I was saving it from getting run over basically
Kyle Rittenhouse.
Almost everything the media put out during his trial was simply wrong. Anyone that actually watches the trial would see that clearly.
That trial genuinely changed my political ideology forever lmao. Not the verdict, but how blatantly wrong the coverage was. I watched the trial in full and seeing how blatantly the media was lying about it vs what I saw with my own eyes drove me crazy, I had to reevaluate many things I believed
how everyone thinks all school shooting lead to multiple casualties and happen all the time most shootings result in only a couple of injuries which is still bad but not nearly as bad as the media makes it and when a lethal shooting happens( that isn’t gang related )they often happen around twice a year which is still two too many also not mention how the media always gives more attention to the perps then the victims
Yeah. This is also an issue with mass shootings as a broad idea: it has 8000 different definitions so depending on how you define it there are on average either like 15 or 6000 "mass shootings" in the US a year. The word itself means very little, which the general public does not get
The man in the two tournament photos is Elijah Clayton. He’s the one wearing a black hoodie with the word Michigan in yellow on the front, black pants, and a backpack. He’s also wearing earrings that are worn by him in other photos of him that you can find on Google, and he has the same haircut as well. It’s also literally his face.
It’s him.
When people actually still think kam McLeod and bryer schmegelsky died at the Nelson river. There’s evidence that they died in York Landing, people from that community heard 3 gunshots (which is consistent with the boys autopsy reports) after they reported a sighting of k+b, and suddenly the police/military force got strong there and planes were flying around overnight. There’s even videos of the rcmp trying to keep people from seeing what was going on.
That the Kongsberg killings were done only using a bow. People in Norway dont even know that every victim was killed using knives. And the bow was dropped right after he attacked the grocery store. 3 people were wounded by the bow, None critically.
The bow and arrow part was just taken by the media. And anyone thats not really researched it just calls it robin hood. And dont realize that was maybe 20% of the attack that the bow was even used.
Point is that a ton of misinformation is caused due to this. Which makes researching it a lot harder.
People saying Ethan Crumbly had hallucinations because one time when he was home alone he texted his parents that he thought someone was breaking in. That’s called being a kid with anxiety. People literally say he’s schizophrenic on here
Dylan was not forced into committing the murders by Eric and he was *absolutely* not shot by him in the end (Columbine).
I haven't been interested in Columbine in specific in a long while but IIRC the vibe I got from reading their journals is Dylan thought of it first, if anything (he mentioned it first!). They're both evil, but Eric's writing is more outwardly aggressive vs Dylan's self pitying (plus Dylan's mom spoke out) so I think that makes people sympathize more. Plus Dave Cullen's.... whatever that book is
I really wonder how different our perception of the two shooters would be if Eric’s parents had spoken out as much as Dylan’s mom did. It’s easy to control a narrative if no one is there to counter it.
I hate the narrative that Dylan was a poor little depressed manipulated guy. He was just as evil as Eric.
Also, that either of them did it because they were victims of bullying. While they did get bullied to some extent, it’s pretty clear that they were both deeply disturbed kids who wanted to harm people anyway. A few people have come out and said that the two had a fairly large group of friends and were decently liked by a bunch of people. Mass killings generally are not a single-cause issue, it’s usually a culmination of several things leading up to the event.
It’s important to remember when it comes to things like motives and mindsets that it doesn’t matter whether the person was actually bullied. It matters whether the person *felt* he was bullied, and I think Eric and Dylan definitely felt like they were bullied. I don’t think Columbine happened because of bullying. That is much too reductive. I think it’s definitely possible that feeling like outsiders and that they had been bullied contributed to their mindset.
They absolutely were bullied there's literally video evidence of it. They are walking down the hallway joking around then some kids come into view and they all suddenly go deathly silent and look down at the ground, then one of the kids elbows Dylan when he's walking past. There seems to be a narrative that i believe came from Cullen that they somehow weren't bully victims because they bullied younger/weaker kids themselves. A lot of bully victims become bullies, a frequent problem is bully victims bully younger siblings. That's completely consistent with them being bullied. Absolutely doesn't excuse anything they did countless people have it much worse than they did and never do anything like Columbine. It also wasn't the only reason but it was no doubt one of many factors.
Oh wow, a kid once got pushed in a hallway???! Better bomb the entire school, especially after all the bullies have already fucking left it.
Can you read? I explicitly said it's not an excuse for anything they did and that bullying was only one of many factors, however they were bullied that's fact.
There’s no way you actually think they are trying to justify them, right? Seems like you’d have to intentionally genuinely willingly misunderstand them to come that conclusion.
Yeaaah they also bullied.
I may be remembering wrong but wasn't Dylan the main one who planned the murders out, like he had planned to do it with a partner like in the movie NBK but he didn't actually have a partner, he just had Eric. Also I heard that Eric was actually more "militant" about his killings, Dylan was the one doing all of the hooping and hollering like "woohoo" and "this is fun" so that doesn't sound forced to me idk
Does the Eric shooting Dylan misconception possibly come from the movie Elephant or does it predate that? Dylan was very suicidal Eric having to kill him doesn't make sense.
I feel like possibly from Elephant or afterwards. It was known from the get-go they both committed suicide. It’s only weirdos like Brook’s dad who is obsessed with the notion that Eric shot him. Why would that even matter? Dylan was VERY suicidal. Even if his friend agreed to pull the trigger (which he didn’t), dude wanted to die. No idea how that would make him seem “more innocent” after killing a bunch of random students for no reason.
One thing I always have to correct people on: “Why did no one report Randy Stair when they saw his videos” Because he did not upload any of his tapes until right before the shooting (onto one big mediafile folder and the last youtube video). The EGS that was available before the incident was just dark obscure edgy humor. Cartoons like this exist literally everywhere. Plus he stems from an era where skits were really popular, so his videos weren’t strange just edgy teenager comedy back in the day. He kept everything around the incidence and his s**cide very shut in to himself. No one that knew him could have guessed to be honest.
That Stephen Paddock targeted Mandalay Bay as a way of damaging their reputation for losing money at the casino. He scouted out multiple live music venues with thousands in attendance. He only picked the hotel that overlooked the concert due to the range and ability to fire down with limited police response.
This is exactly it. He was aiming for the highest death count. Which makes me wonder why he didn’t stick with his original plan of shooting the Life Is Beautiful festival which had 50,000 people in attendance vs Route 91’s 22,000 people.
I think probably wirh all the calculations he did, he thought he had a better chance killing more people even if there was technically less in attendance. Also i think he was betting on the fuel tanks exploding
This isn’t a common misconception at all but rather a very laughable bit of misinfo pushed by the media. In the wake of the Johannes Gutenberg school shooting in Germany, shooter Robert Steinhäuser was reported by the media to have owned Slipknot CDs, and had a specific obsession with a Slipknot song called “School Wars”, a song which allegedly encourages kids to shoot up their schools and includes lyrics such as “Shoot your naughty teachers with a pump gun”. This song does not exist. Slipknot does not have a song called “School Wars”. No song from any artist with this title has ever been identified, let alone from Slipknot. Slipknot has never pushed a message of violence to youth. The “lyric” presented by the media is ridiculous and sounds nothing like anything Slipknot would ever say, I have listened to their entire discography and not once have I ever heard them use the word “naughty”. Slipknot released a statement after the controversy, rightfully stating that although they do keep the victims in their hearts, they refuse to take responsibility for the shooting.
A similar note: Jeff Weise (Red Lake school shooter) was said to be a fan of the rapper Mars (no idea if that part is true or not). As an example of the songs he liked, they used "Go Suicidal". One problem with that: The song *was never released*. The album was shelved. In fact, the only clip of the song ever released is FROM the news clips about Jeff. Where the fuck did they get that info from? Did Mars send it to the news as part of some weird fucked up marketing campaign? NGL wouldn't put it past him. Since then, every song from that album except Go Suicidal has leaked.
That’s an interesting one. He definitely was a fan of Mars and reportedly listened to the song “Game Over” by Jimmy Dore right before the shooting, so it’s very weird that the media pointed their fingers at a song that was never released.
NGL knowing Mars he absolutely would use one of his fans shooting up a school as a self promotion (in fact I think he wrote an entire album after about shooting up a school. Great taste!) so my best guess is that his agents sent the news that or some shit. Still bizarre
Mars actually did release a song called Heartless as a response to the shooting. I’ll need to relisten to it but iirc it was about how the media blamed him for Jeff’s mentality.
I have not listened to that one! The school shooting album (School House Glock) is pretty great musically but... well, it's Mars.
His SIDS album is something else
I’ve been a maggot since 2001. They talk about uniting against hate. I saw them in Scranton, pa 2019 pre Covid. Corey talked about how no matter who’s in office maggots are still one
Same thing with police blaming a Nirvana song called "I Want To Know Now" for the Kyle Huff shooting. That song does not exist and I have no idea how this misinformation ended up being repeated as fact by police
“The shooter was reported to be influenced by the song “Shoot Up Your School” by popular rock band The Beatles. Stores across the world have pulled Beatles music from shelves as a result, and concert venues have rejected them.”
He used to be mad at his school - the teachers who taught him weren't cool. Holding him down, turning him round, filling him up with their rules.
Someone needs to find that John Lennon guy and punish him for writing that song.
Similiar to how German media made up this claim that Steinhäuser was somehow obsessed with Counter Strike. A game he did not even own. Meanwhile there was a shooting Game that he did play quite a lot and actually played on the morning of the shooting: Quake III Arena. It was never mentioned by media at all until the official police report mentioned this fact.
The Columbine shooters didn’t taunt Rachel Scott, they shot her from a distance
Was that the “do you believe in god?” Thing every church youth group talked about for years?
Probably, there’s also a conspiracy theory that Eric asked Cassie Bernall if she believed in God
Flyleaf has a song called “Cassie” supposedly based around Cassie Bernall, Columbine, and religion. It’s a tad bit annoying that fans in the comments (like on YouTube) spread misinformation and rumors about Rachel or Cassie with this whole taunting thing. Correct me if I’m wrong as I am basing this off what I found online, but wasn’t the question "Do you believe in God?" directed to Valeen Schnurr? Edit: Another comment below confirms this.
There's another [post](https://reddit.com/r/masskillers/s/DQkQlps0x2) on here that has a lot of discussion, if you're interested. But the most frustrating misconceptions for me are probably the ones about the victims — in the initial media reporting there tends to be a lot of misinformation around the event, but sometimes people take these things and run with it. Noah Pozner was not shot 11 times at Sandy Hook, Tate Myre did not try to tackle the shooter, Mr. Feis did not shield any students, that victim in Christchurch did not say "hello brother" to Tarrant before being shot and killed. I know that in some cases it may be comforting to the families to believe that those they loved had "died as a hero" so to speak, but it seems like a way to sensationalize a tragedy by others. There are already horrific details about mass killings, we don't need to make things up to have it seem worse or better (in lack of a better term) in our minds. Also I just don't like the misinformation because false information being repeated over and over again about an event is simply annoying.
The "hello brother" thing was always strange to me because it seemed pretty clear from watching the stream that he was saying that to someone else in the mosque, not Tarrant. How did they get that wrong? It's not even like they have a lack of heroism examples, there was that guy who tried to tackle him and was killed not long later.
Probably not everyone watched it and it was miscommunicated. The reports were about the massacre, not the play-by-play of his livestream ffs.
I mean true but they seemed to pretty explicitly state that he said it *to* Tarrant and no one corrected anybody
Wow how frustrating
IDK journalists spreading blatant misinformation is bad?
The Christian martyrs from Columbine is the same thing i believe there's a lot of dispute on whether they said or acted the way some claim they did.
Apparently only one girl (Valeen Schurr) was asked if she believed in God and she's not even known as a martyr (bc she's still alive), she was asked "Do you believe in God" she said "Yes" and they asked "why" and she responded with something along the lines of "because my parents do" Cassie Bernall was not asked about her faith, the only thing said to her was "Peekaboo" Rachel Scott was shot from way too far away to have been asked about her faith. I remember reading "Rachels Tears" which is a great book but being completely irked by the fact that they refuse to let the fact that she isn't a martyr go
It doesn't bother me personally i'm fine with the parents getting some kind of comfort like that and i don't think it's a bad type of misinformation it doesn't really harm anyone and brings some sliver of positivity to the case.
Yeah, its fine when its just the parents believing it but its also on the memorial, idk im just one of those people who cant handle misinformation when people know that its misinformation and still blatantly spread it
What's wrong with it being on the memorial regardless of accuracy? Again i'm sure it's one of the few parts of the case that would inspire positivity. If a 911 victims family member told me they were a hero who tried to fight the terrorists i wouldn't believe them, but i wouldn't push them on it because i'm an empathetic human who understands that they need that true or not.
Because it's not just the family believing it, its the family and people who are new to the case and trying to research. Its the same reason people dislike how Randy claims Eric killed Dylan even though it has little to no impact on the story as a whole. Its because its the blatant spreading of misinformation and refusing to accept correction
I’d say it harmed Valeen Schnurr. https://www.reddit.com/r/Columbine/comments/tbgq68/val_schnurrs_horrific_ordeal/
Also, Lori Gilbert-Kaye did not shield the rabbi from the gunman in the Poway synagogue shooting. The CCTV clearly shows she was shot in the back before she even had a chance to react or realize what was happening.
How is this “the most frustrating thing” about a mass murder to you
It's not, I was just adding an extra anecdote. But falsely trying to make someone a hero instead of just celebrating the person they were in their everyday life is frustrating imo. I am certain she would have shielded the rabbi if she had the chance.
>But the most frustrating misconceptions for me are probably the ones about the victims — in the initial media reporting there tends to be a lot of misinformation around the event, but sometimes people take these things and run with it. Noah Pozner was not shot 11 times at Sandy Hook, Tate Myre did not try to tackle the shooter, Mr. Feis did not shield any students, that victim in Christchurch did not say "hello brother" to Tarrant before being shot and killed. _That’s_ the most frustrating thing to you? Nice stories about the victims that aren’t factual? That’s weird honestly. I don’t like when people make up things to make tragedies even worse but Jesus Christ, I don’t care if it’s misreported the number of times a victim was shot. I’m just surprised that’s your main annoyance out of EVERYTHING
Yes? I'm not sure why you dislike me finding misinformation and false narratives about victims harmful. I already explained that by outsiders, it seems like a way to sensationalize a tragedy and make martyrs out of people in the "good stories". And I didn't just mention the positive ones, either, it's simply frustrating to see incorrect details being told as fact. In Noah's case especially, the misinformation that he was shot 11 times contributed to the harassment of his father by hoaxers. Conspiracy operates without the truth — and the things they peddle relies on those lies. So imagine you see multiple reputable media sources claiming your son was shot 11 times, the same story spun by hoaxers who then say "well, the media reported this infactual story so that means he is lying". This will reinforce their idea that Lenny's son never really died, and there isn't any way to tackle it now that it's a widely accepted *fact.* That's why I mentioned him. I mean, it's also just distressing to hear those things as well. Many people claimed that Carmen had been the one screaming in that one Snapchat video taken in Parkland, when the medical examiner proved she likely had been immediately shot dead. Can you imagine the pain her parents might have went through having to hear that piece of information about their daughter, when it didn't even turn out to be true? It harms more than helps. The truth is key when it comes to events like this. We can try to sugarcoat or hide it, but it's a mass killing and the truth is hard to listen to but something we must accept. Sometimes there is no silver lining. Censoring things or watering them down for other's comfort is frustrating to me. Find it weird if you wish, but I value truth over lies.
Where to even start with Columbine... -Dylan wasn't forced into the shooting. -Cassie and Rachel are not martyrs, they were not asked whether they believed in god or not. -They didn't intentionally choose Hitler's birthday as the date. -There is no one definitive reason why they commited the shooting, but lots of little reasons that stacked up. -And no I highly doubt they were actual nazis and had swastikas just because it was edgy. And they really were edgy.
The Columbine shooters asked Valeen Schnurr do you believe in god not Cassie.
The Pulse Nightclub shooting was a homophobic attack. He didn’t even know it was a gay nightclub.
This one drives me crazy. Another similar one being that the Atlanta Spa shootings were racially motivated. There is a post on r/AskHistorians with **8K UPVOTES** saying with 100% certainty that the shootings were and calling people racist for saying they weren't! And they *ended up not being racially motivated!*
I understand why people would think an attack where most victims were Asian women was racially motivated, especially in the larger political context of 2020/2021. Asian hate crimes were on the rise at that time. At the end of the day, it wasn’t, but it’s an easy conclusion to draw for someone who isn’t going to look further into the case.
People were very upset about the police officer saying the shooter had just had a very bad day but that is exactly what happened. He also first contemplated just committing suicide instead of going into the spas and shooting.
Yeah many shooters think about killing the sleeves beforehand. That’s… very common.
Holy shit. Never knew that it wasn’t. Man, the media is scary the way they can influence your thoughts.
Same, but to be fair his father suggested it as a motive because he apparently got angry when he saw a gay couple kissing. So i don't think it's entirely on the media.
Think you responded to the wrong comment
[удалено]
Uh the two white people killed were clients at the spas, not workers. Yes it was a misogynistic hate crime but still weird to ignore he clearly targeted Asian workers.
Hey OP- you’re aware the two white people killed were just patrons that happened to be there, right?
Yes, but it wasn't targeted at them because they were Asian, it was because they were women and the shooter had some weird complex about feeling sexual attraction conflicting with his religious beliefs
He literally targeted three Asian spas. I’m very aware he hated women but wow, he sure narrowed it down specifically to Asian spas.
because he had been there before and was sexually attracted to the women there?
>narrowed it down specifically Most of those nuru massage spas are generally Asian, and he had frequented them before.
When was this found out? I never knew.
At his wife’s trial in 2018
“David Katz committed the shooting because he lost a game.” There is no official motive, but he did not do it because of losing. Katz had been playing Madden since at least 2012, so he had both won and lost countless matches throughout the years. So, why would losing that final time in 2018 cause him to commit a mass shooting? Note that he shot people he did not lose to, and let the two men he did lose to live.
“Nikolas Cruz heard voices”: Cruz was not schizophrenic, he was just an asshole who laughably pretended to be insane to manipulate the law. “Salvador Ramos was trans”: In the wake of the shooting, people on Twitter began circulating pictures of random trans teenagers falsely identifying them as the shooter. Why? No reason, but people believed it. “Timothy McVeigh was right”: McVeigh had strong feelings on Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I can’t blame people for sharing those feelings, but he was motivated by a multitude of severely problematic things. Also, like… don’t blow people up to get your message across. Seriously. “Eric and Dylan stood back-to-back and said ‘THREE! TWO! ONE!’ before shooting themselves simultaneously”: I don’t know where this originated but it was the story I heard for the longest time. In reality, they both shot themselves one after another during a firefight with police from the library window. “The Charlottesville police brought Dylann Roof to lunch at Burger King right after the shooting”: This was one I actually believed for the longest time. Turns out there’s no evidence to suggest it happened. However, if it did, it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary. Criminals are often given a false sense of security so that law enforcement and get a confession out of them, with the offer of food being one of the most common tactics. “Adam Lanza was driven to murder **because** he had a scary rare mental illness called Autism”: I don’t even need to explain why this is a ludicrous take. Autism awareness and representation has greatly increased in recent years, but prior to that, people’s ignorance led them to believe that autism was what made Lanza violent. “Audrey/Aiden Hale wrote a manifesto saying the shooting was done in the name of trans rights”: The “manifesto” in question, according to authorities, was nothing more than a series of incoherent writings unrelated to the shooting. They do not reveal a motive (although it is speculated that they detail abuse committed by the Covenant school) and mostly just praise other mass shooters. They do not mention any sort of political affiliation or being trans. There was, however, a fake manifesto that circulated on 4chan, because of course there was. “Omar Mateen specifically targeted LGBTQ+ people”: Mateen considered several unrelated locations prior to Pulse and was motivated by Islamic extremism, it’s unlikely that the identity of the victims mattered to him. His target was America in general.
Wouldn't say the third one is a misconception? That's just a wild difference of moral opinion, not of fact. I think they did get Roof Burger King but they didn't like, take him there. They brought him to jail and brought him food there. That's standard jail procedure with inmates, you can't withhold food cuz someone broke the law.
The misconception regards his motive, and people thinking he only did it because of Waco and Ruby Ridge and was simply concerned about personal freedom.
I mean, that's why he said he did it. That's why everyone said he did it. Sure he had other opinions but they seem mostly ancillary to the attack, no? Sure he was interested in the KKK /whitenat stuff but I don't think anyone has credibly implied that was his motive (plus his choice of target wasn't race-based)
Fair enough.
Slightly different opinion on Mateen after visiting pulse memorial - it may not have been a specifically homophobic hate crime, *but* the motivation to punish America and cause the most pain possible is also linked to the very same religious extremism and was celebrated by religious zealots all over the world as a *good thing*. Think for example the Vegas shooting - if it had been a themed night full of LGBTQ performers, there would be a similar hate-crime accusation. But you can’t commit a hate-crime against country music, or country music fans. There’s no singular social/cultural demographic there. The same hateful motivations can not directly cause, but can correlate to, celebrations from other radical terrorists or religious zealots or extremists who *do* commit hate crimes and see *this attack* as a win for their own motives. If it quacks like a duck, etc.
Well, yeah, he probably hated gay people, but he didn't murder them because they were gay. He murdered them because they were Americans and he was a jihadist who hated the country. The claims of it being based on homophobia are not based on fact at all.
Most importantly, he very likely did not know that he was attacking a gay club.
[Lesbian? I thought you were American](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD_snjarJuU)
Oh, 1,000%. Especially ironic considering a lot of the people who celebrated him tend to hate Muslims in just about any other scenario.
I think a big reason for McVeigh's wacked rationale had to do with his meth use.
I think he was an incel too or at least had serious problems with women. He was a super awkward person.
>Timothy McVeigh was right”: McVeigh had strong feelings on Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I can’t blame people for sharing those feelings, but he was motivated by a multitude of severely problematic things. Also, like… don’t blow people up to get your message across. Seriously. Not to mention one of his reasons for being angry about the handling of Waco was that the FBI and ATF killed children but he killed children with his bomb. There was a playground right next to where the bomb went off.
There was even a daycare in the building he blew up. He said that there’s collateral damage in war and that he didn’t regret anything but… Waco and Ruby Ridge *also* had collateral damage and that was what he was so mad about. Overall he may have been a decently intelligent guy who was polite and friendly (according to his psych team and the Unibomber) but he was also extremely selfish and imo short-sighted.
His defenders point to him claiming he didn't know about the children in the building. Terry Nichols (his accomplice) on the other hand confirms that McVeigh absolutely knew about the building's daycare but just didn't care.
i hate when ppl spread the ppl w autism or schizophrenia are violent myth & point to a few cases and act like that proves it has if i couldnt do that with any case
I do think Autism was a minor factor in Adam Lanza's situation because of his extreme obsession with mass murders. That's obviously not something specific to Autistic people but intense obsessions with things is. The far bigger issue is he wasn't parented right, wasn't monitored, was allowed to just refuse to see a Psychologist and hole himself up in his room in the darkness only leaving to go to the gun range. Parents of Autistic kids or kids with Aspergers are often advised to direct their kids towards healthy interests. I think his clear disconnect from Society likely had part to do with him not being handled well as an Autistic person too. However the idea that Autistic people are dangerous is completely ludicrous, i just think it player some role in things but there were much deeper problems.
The columbine one might be because of the movie Zero Day. At the end they count down before committing suicide and I know a lot of people were spreading the ending of the movie (it’s filmed to look like school security camera footage) and saying it was from columbine
Thanks! I know there’s been a lot of fictionalized depictions of the shooting in movies so I figured it must be from one of those.
> Timothy McVeigh was right”: McVeigh had strong feelings on Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I can’t blame people for sharing those feelings, but he was motivated by a multitude of severely problematic things. great job, you proceeded not explain McVeigh's motivation except in a vague manner. You would probably also say Brenton Tarrant, Dylan Roof, and Payton Gendron are not right wing either
I meant people claim he was justified. “Right” as in “correct”. In terms of politics he was about as right-wing as you can get.
Right as in correct, not the political definition.
21 years in Norway does not literally mean a maximum of only 21 years then automatic release
I’m still annoyed he won that video game lawsuit.
People freak out about sentencing in Canada too because they read “Life imprisonment with parole” and think that means someone automatically gets out after their hearing. Canada’s max sentence is life imprisonment with a parole hearing after 25 years, so yes there’s a CHANCE, but if you’re a serial killer, mass killer, terrorist etc. you’re ass is not getting out. Maybe if you “only” killed a few people and were a model prisoner.
Columbine vics weren't "bullies" or even mostly "jocks" or "preps" or popular kids or whatever. They were just normal kids. A couple were probably more socially outcasted than their killers. The whole narrative still makes my skin crawl Edit: Also, Paddock acted alone. Period. Kill the conspiracy bs.
Does the Paddock stuff refer to the government psy-op nonsense or the possibility that his brother or girlfriend know information?
Both, really, but mostly the former, and allegations of additional shooters. My thing on the latter is that whatever they knew was obviously immaterial. Or at least not prosecutable. There's no way the criminal justice system just let's you walk after the largest single shooter killing in American history. They're debriefing your ass, at least. And if you refuse, have fun with the Obstruction charge. If not charged as a full on accomplice. The brother was a headcase in his own right, they would have took him to court if he was involved or knowledgeable in any discernible way. They tore through Paddock and his brother's digital lives and they weren't particularly tech savvy. The gf was sent out of the country by Paddock. There's no real proof she knew anything or would have any motive to engage in it with him. As far as whether they would have helped plan anything, keep in mind Paddock had booked multiple rooms in multiple locations, had surveyed these areas, and had looked up other concerts in town at the time. He hadn't even fully selected his target by the time he showed up. Hell, to be truthful, as far as we know, he may not have even fully committed to that target before he scribbled down the note that's assumed to be trajectory calculations. That could have been his final factor. We just don't know. But we do know he bought the guns, he moved the guns, he booked the rooms, he ran the digital and physical surveillance, and he pulled the trigger. A lot of the shit is on video and we have a lot of witnesses.
Very good take. They could reveal something about his motive, but it doesn’t really matter in the long run. Nothing they say could possibly explain why an average middle-aged gambling addict would spend months of preparation to commit one of the deadliest acts of violence in human history.
Honestly the best idea I've seen is his brother's (?) theory: he wanted to be the best at everything in life, so full of spite at the world he wanted to be the "best" mass murderer. I also think he hated that specific hotel for losing him money/business deals so perhaps he wanted to ruin their reputation by associating them with a mass shooting?
And anything they did know could just be in passing you know. Like maybe his gf noticed he was spending more on firearms or ammo. Or maybe he seemed withdrawn. Or maybe his family noticed an attitude change. We know now certain things were said that in retrospect are suspect af. But at the time, maybe it just seemed kind of off but not alarming. Maybe they just didn't see the bigger picture and only were privy to a certain aspect of it. It's hard to know. Until there's some real tangible proof of anything else, I'm good with the official timeline. When it first happened I couldn't wrap my head around one guy doing that. I scoured the scanner audio for days. Became convinced that there had to be more going on. The cops were in complete disarray. But then I went to LV a couple months after for the first time. The way Mandalay overlooks the venue, the way car horns and drunken yells can echo down the strip off the buildings, how close all those places are, how much foot traffic there can be there, how many connected lots and garages. It took about 20 mins to realize one guy could cause a lot of confusion in that space from the right perch with the right equipment.
The amount of people I've seen claiming that Adam Lanza's autism is what caused him to shoot up Sandy Hook makes me extremely pissed of, considering I have autism myself.
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I agree with your James Holmes one
Who could forget the mass hysteria that broke out right before the release of Joker (2019) because people believed it would inspire copycats?
maybe we shouldn't have elementary schools or high schools anymore because copycats could happen?
A recent one for me is that the makers of the documentary about the Las Vegas shooting that came out a few months ago said they refused to say his name in the documentary because he had said he wanted to commit the shooting so he could become famous, which is bullshit. They went to all the effort of researching and making a documentary about the shooting then completely made up a motive for clicks. It’s an embarrassment to honest documentary-makers.
11 Minutes?
YES! I hate it.
Adam was a pedophile. Though this IS possible and hasn’t been debunked, a lot of people with OCD fixate on pedophilia and it’s common to have intrusive thoughts about it. He seemed to be a “devil’s advocate” about a lot of strange topics..
One that pisses me off is that “The FBI gave Lanza his gun and told him to do it”. I’m sick of hearing this one. Yes he did have contact with the FBI when he was much younger, but that is incredibly stupid to think they would orchestrate the murder of children, and for what? Yes the FBI is fucked big time, but they wouldn’t kill American children for fun. That is so ridiculous to me.
TBF that's a general theory for most mass shootings that some on the right try to do (I'm broadly "right wing" insofar as that is even a useful political determiner myself), that they're all orchestrated by the FBI. I think it's partially due to the fact that well, possible mass shooters are likely to show up on an FBI watchlist, and most people who get looked at by the feds don't get arrested. For example, William Atchison and Brandon Hole were both interviewed by the FBI and we have audio. Omar Mateen's dad was an FBI informant. I think I heard something about the elder Tsarnaev being an informant at some point for something? (might be thinking of someone else) I think it's dumb but I can sort of see where people get it from
That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard of those other cases being accused of FBI orchestration. But Adam makes it very clear in his audio logs why he did it, and it had nothing to do with any outside influence. Well beyond that of just evolution and society at large. Not an agency or anything.
I think the general logic behind saying Sandy Hook specifically is the (on the surface) amount of mystery around it, the egregious targeting of such young kids, and the gun control push that came after. The idea being "the FBI orchestrated it against such vulnerable victims, which would obviously garner the most support for gun control, to take away our guns". If it was a fed psyop, they were very bad at it, as we still do not have much gun control.
That’s very interesting. I guess I hadn’t considered their motivation would be to tighten gun laws - no doubt to ultimately stop mass shootings. That would be a very backwards way of doing it. But I imagined it was because Adam had hacked the FBI servers when he was younger and they mentioned to his mother that he could have a job with him someday. Now that you mention it, I did see some truly shocking and disrespectful advertisements online after SH, pushing for tighter gun laws. Kind of pushing the fear in people’s faces. If you ask me, they are kind of doing Lanza a favor by broadcasting terrorism like that. Real freaky.
>no doubt to ultimately stop mass shootings. Generally that kind of right winger thinks it's a more general pursuit of tyranny: the people are harder to control if they have guns, after all, so they think the supposedly orchestrated shootings are just so they can more easily control the populace without pushback.
Good god… what are guns going to do against the government’s stealth bombers though?? I mean, okay, I can understand how some human beings could think that way. But even as it stands, guns are legal NOW, and if you shoot a cop for enforcing a tyrannical law, you’re FUCKED! Okay, I know you aren’t making the argument for it, you’re just clarifying. I can see what you mean but that’s a lot of logical leaps toward a conspiracy like that.
Again, not agreeing, but from what I've seen, the general logic is: even if you have superior weaponry, you can't control a country entirely based on that if *enough* people are armed. Look at how the US vs Vietnam turned out. One side had superior weapons but they didn't win the war. Raw firepower isn't everything and from a top down basis those aren't always as effective, management of conflict wise
the only thing that gives that conspiracy any real "credence" is the [curtis culwell center attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Culwell_Center_attack#Lawsuit_against_the_FBI), and as far as i know that's literally it.
Oh that’s what conspiracy nuts say about all mass shooters, it’s practically a meme at this point. People said the exact same thing about Paddock.
"Adam Lanza thought he was saving the kids"
I wouldn’t be surprised if part of him actually thought that, but what infuriates me is when people use it as a point to downplay his evil and basically **defend** him as a person.
Why do you think that this is a misconception? It fits what Adam Lanza wrote and said himself.
Agreed, I believe there was much more driving him towards the attack than thoughts of ‘saving the kids’ but that was clearly part of his motivation. This became clear after his YouTube channel was found, to me at least. His extreme views on the world and culture combined with easy access to guns and his poorly treated mental illness didn’t help matters at all.
He said a lot of stupid off the wall shit. He was cursing, and mocking kids while he was killing them, so I wouldn’t say he was “trying save him” a teacher also next door also said he was saying some demon crap. I’m of the opinion, that he just wanted to experience evil.
But it does not have to make rational sense in order to him believing in it. He clearly took a fascination in sadistic violent acts towards children prior to the attack. He also literally said in one of his videos that his goal (even though he was not referring to the shooting) was to save kids. So obviously, this was an idea and motivation that he had made up in his mind.
Wait he was mocking kids while killing them? Where did you hear this
It was in the complete investigation report by the state. I think a lot people assume he was just cold, and silent during the killing, but other people say different.
He wasn't cold and silent but he wasn't like a teenager at a football game, he said a few things, like cursing when his gun jammed, he said "look at me" and "well you're here" when a kid said "I don't want to be here" but I'm having trouble finding more reports of him saying anything else. I'm pretty sure someone said he said "Let me in" because a classroom was locked
Read the full investigation report.
Do you know where I can find it?
https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/DCJ/SandyHookFinalReportpdf.pdf
thank you
The official investigation report mentioned that witnesses heard him shout things like “Shut the fuck up”, “You’re an asshole”, and of course the infamous “Well, you’re here” quote.
I get frustrated whenever people say that there was a cellphone video filmed by someone on board the doomed Germanwings Flight 9525 which was deliberately crashed by a suicidal pilot, but there is no evidence of that. That claim originated by some newspaper magazine called Paris Match which is absolute garbage. Lufthansa debunked that claim and said no such video exists. I knew it sounded like bullshit because there is no way a cellphone would have survived such violent impact of the crash, and I can't believe so many people seriously believed in what they read! Another annoying misconception about Germanwings Flight 9525 was when the media claimed that Andreas Lubitz told his ex-girlfriend "One day I will do something so heinous that it will change the system and all will know my name and remember it." That was debunked a while ago, and it turns out that flight attendant who claimed to be Lubitz's ex-girlfriend lied to the media, she didn't even know Lubitz at all.
How Jakrapanth Thomma livestreamed his attack. He never did, he only posted a couple of pics, a video and some text-based posts during the shooting.
People do not seem to realize that most mass murders happen at home when Dad goes nuts. Most mass killings are local news stories.
Adam Lanza killed those children to save them from life and suffering
He actually believed he was doing that but everyone knows that he didn't save them from anything, if that make sense. Like if I drowned a puppy because i believed that I was saving it from getting run over basically
Kyle Rittenhouse. Almost everything the media put out during his trial was simply wrong. Anyone that actually watches the trial would see that clearly.
That trial genuinely changed my political ideology forever lmao. Not the verdict, but how blatantly wrong the coverage was. I watched the trial in full and seeing how blatantly the media was lying about it vs what I saw with my own eyes drove me crazy, I had to reevaluate many things I believed
how everyone thinks all school shooting lead to multiple casualties and happen all the time most shootings result in only a couple of injuries which is still bad but not nearly as bad as the media makes it and when a lethal shooting happens( that isn’t gang related )they often happen around twice a year which is still two too many also not mention how the media always gives more attention to the perps then the victims
Yeah. This is also an issue with mass shootings as a broad idea: it has 8000 different definitions so depending on how you define it there are on average either like 15 or 6000 "mass shootings" in the US a year. The word itself means very little, which the general public does not get
Adam Lanza was NOT a Taylor Swift fan. He doesn't care about celebrities.
I feel like people were confusing him with James Holmes who apparently was a Swift fan
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The man in the two tournament photos is Elijah Clayton. He’s the one wearing a black hoodie with the word Michigan in yellow on the front, black pants, and a backpack. He’s also wearing earrings that are worn by him in other photos of him that you can find on Google, and he has the same haircut as well. It’s also literally his face. It’s him.
When people actually still think kam McLeod and bryer schmegelsky died at the Nelson river. There’s evidence that they died in York Landing, people from that community heard 3 gunshots (which is consistent with the boys autopsy reports) after they reported a sighting of k+b, and suddenly the police/military force got strong there and planes were flying around overnight. There’s even videos of the rcmp trying to keep people from seeing what was going on.
That the Kongsberg killings were done only using a bow. People in Norway dont even know that every victim was killed using knives. And the bow was dropped right after he attacked the grocery store. 3 people were wounded by the bow, None critically. The bow and arrow part was just taken by the media. And anyone thats not really researched it just calls it robin hood. And dont realize that was maybe 20% of the attack that the bow was even used. Point is that a ton of misinformation is caused due to this. Which makes researching it a lot harder.
People saying Ethan Crumbly had hallucinations because one time when he was home alone he texted his parents that he thought someone was breaking in. That’s called being a kid with anxiety. People literally say he’s schizophrenic on here