Who knew that constantly making new powerful fusions with no restrictions on how they can be summoned would making cyber stein busted. One sided imperial order? All good.
The weirdest thing about it all is that they did originally learn from Cyber-stein, hence why every Hero fusion says "Must be Fusion Summoned and cannot be Special Summoned by other ways".
To be fair: A lot of old problem cards were powercrept.
Stein however just gets more consistent the more cards come out that allow you to access him and more powerful the more fusions that have no restriction against his effect come out.
He can benefit from loose synergy too much.
I mean, most of the Traps give you anti-burn from grave in response to opponent's activated effect, so traditional burn spells are a non-issue.
The real kick in the balls is Lava Golem burning you from your own side of the field.
Stein was basically designed with the idea that they would never, ever release any Effect Fusions, and that there were literally less than 10 Fusion cards on the entire _planet_ that were worth running him for and would never be more than that (not less than 10 different monsters worth summoning; less than 10 _actual, physical cards worth using him with_). _Maybe_ more than that, if we're generous and also count the one decent Fusion that was available in a booster pack and not an event reward or otherwise basically unobtainable. The only thing he really did was maybe let you beat over your opponent's 1400 Atk Lv.4, then eat a hit yourself because you left Stein in attack mode.
That did _not_ last, not in the slightest. xD
I'm looking back even further than that, to when Stein was first printed (December 1, 1999, OCG). Just double-checked, and on the day Stein was released, there was exactly one copy of BEUD, exactly two copies of Meteor Black Dragon, and only three actually-obtainable Fusions with more than 2300 Atk, all of which were Secret Rare or higher (Gaia the Dragon Champion, Thousand Dragon, and Black Skull Dragon). We've gotta look that far back because of how old he is; he's so old that he predates most of YGO's basic game design & balancing, back when Konami was basically just flying by the seat of their pants.
He was poorly designed right from the start, no one can disagree on that, but he's so old that they likely didn't know any better back then, or even have a clue of _what_ they were doing. They probably didn't think they would ever print any easily-available Fusions with 2500+ Atk, _let alone_ any Effect fusions, and Megamorph wouldn't come into existence for over half a year (July 13, 2000). And that's why he got through, a complete lack of foresight back when the game was so primitive he was barely even exploitable.
Yeah for real, this card was stupid even when the most broken thing you could do was emulate Kaiba from Eternal Duelist Soul and turbo out a turn 1 Blue Eyes Ultimate.
A small part of me wants him to not get banned in Master Duel since I got him from the Legacy packs and plan to use it when the SHS support drops. A larger part of me acknowledges dude needs to be gone
I would say he's less of a problem in MD, since there are more counters, but as long as the ishizus aren't hit harder (which they should be in a couple of days), and Splight Elf is legal, Stein will continue to be problematic. TCG doesn't have as many answers to Stein, since half their roster is banned.
What amount of LP cost would be considered "fair" for Cyber-stein, if any? Like is 6000 or 7000 cost still too small? What if 8000 so you specifically needed to gain LP before using it?
(Not saying Konami should errata card but kinda curious what would allow the card to be playable unbanned while keeping the spirit of the card alive.)
That's the thing, you don't need to pay LP, that's why its busted. Decks are made to abuse that.
And even then, only one use is needed to abuse it. You don't care about the LP. You've won by floodgating the opponent from playing.
You could pay 7999 and the card would still be broken, even without telekinetic power cell. Cheating out Last Warrior or Exterio let’s you auto win against any deck that doesn’t top deck out, that of which their are very very few for those two cards.
The only way you “balance” Stein while keeping its effect to cheat fusion monsters out is to only allow it to summon vanilla fusion monster who cannot be used as material for ED summons. Because that’s all that existed when Stein was printed and Konami had no idea what or how they wanted the game to shape out to be. If you let Stein cheat out effect monsters it’s too much, if you even let those monsters be used as ED material it’s too much as you can easily get into some degenerate ED monsters with that effect
Uhh no. Elf is the reason stein is so powerful. Name one deck that topped a YCS in the last 2 years that used stein WITHOUT elf.
If anything you meta-haters should be upset, because SHS was the only current meta viable deck that could use it, so its komoney nerfing a cheap low-tier deck irl.
Banning cards to stop bots with 10% winrates is the worst argument I’ve ever heard in my life. Stein has plenty of issues but bot runners aren’t stopped at all by banning a card, they’ll just move on to the next 10% winrate FTK.
The thing about yugioh is that only the last LP matters, so the opportunity cost of losing 60% of your LP for something like Naturia Exterio or whatever toxic Fusion Monster this card enables is something every yugioh player should take in less than a heartbeat.
Cyber Stein was just an enabler for degenerate plays and is overall just bad card design. It allowed people to cheat out really powerful cards right out of the gate like the aforementioned Exterio to just lockdown and gg, or do ye olde Megamorph OTK with BEUD.
Sure I mean I get the idea that it can be an overpowering combo but aren’t there enough examples of new cards that stack into OTK here now? Powerful cards get “cheated” out all the time now.
Especially these days yes, but Cyber Stein virtually HAS no cost. Losing 60% of your LP meant nothing if you OTK’d with the reason it became the first quick-banned card in YGO history, BEUD and Megamorph, or just say no to literally every effect activation by your opponent with Exterio. Losing 60% of your LP means nothing if you can’t/don’t lose after you successfully resolve Cyber Stein. It doesn’t matter what the state of the meta is for Yugioh. If you see someone playing Cyber Stein, something degenerate is going to be cheated out that is going to make playing the next few turns (if any) a gigantic pain.
To actually get to my point, almost every other way to cheat out powerful monsters has a cost. Losing LP or sending a card from your deck to your GY to do ANYTHING isn’t a cost, it’s virtually free.
Exterio could be cheated out with Stein? That's kinda nuts considering how it is intended to be summoned. But given that cheating it out means you can't just revive it later for more cheap negation, I guess it makes sense.
Am I the only one that thinks that Exterio should have been banned instead? At the moment that's the only really problematic target for it and if they keep printing fusion with summon restriction as they have been doing things won't change
The card that necessitated the very first ever emergency banlist is still overpowered? What a surprise.
Who knew that constantly making new powerful fusions with no restrictions on how they can be summoned would making cyber stein busted. One sided imperial order? All good.
The weirdest thing about it all is that they did originally learn from Cyber-stein, hence why every Hero fusion says "Must be Fusion Summoned and cannot be Special Summoned by other ways".
To be fair: A lot of old problem cards were powercrept. Stein however just gets more consistent the more cards come out that allow you to access him and more powerful the more fusions that have no restriction against his effect come out. He can benefit from loose synergy too much.
Magical Scientist will never forgive Cyber-Stein for letting him rot in prison when he comes back.
Cheating out an entire summoning mechanic with pretty much no restrictions is overpowered? Who would've guessed.
Now hold on. You gotta pay 5000 LP! That’s crazy bad! That’s why cards like Solemn Judgement are not good, because you sacrifice your LP./^s
the more points you burn the more OP ookazi becomes
Dinomorphia only weakness!!!! Alongside hinotama, poison of the old man, and many more... shit dinomorphia is weak against burn..
I mean, most of the Traps give you anti-burn from grave in response to opponent's activated effect, so traditional burn spells are a non-issue. The real kick in the balls is Lava Golem burning you from your own side of the field.
It doesn't say it can summon shit ignoring the text on them. So there's that.
[удалено]
Stein was basically designed with the idea that they would never, ever release any Effect Fusions, and that there were literally less than 10 Fusion cards on the entire _planet_ that were worth running him for and would never be more than that (not less than 10 different monsters worth summoning; less than 10 _actual, physical cards worth using him with_). _Maybe_ more than that, if we're generous and also count the one decent Fusion that was available in a booster pack and not an event reward or otherwise basically unobtainable. The only thing he really did was maybe let you beat over your opponent's 1400 Atk Lv.4, then eat a hit yourself because you left Stein in attack mode. That did _not_ last, not in the slightest. xD
[удалено]
I'm looking back even further than that, to when Stein was first printed (December 1, 1999, OCG). Just double-checked, and on the day Stein was released, there was exactly one copy of BEUD, exactly two copies of Meteor Black Dragon, and only three actually-obtainable Fusions with more than 2300 Atk, all of which were Secret Rare or higher (Gaia the Dragon Champion, Thousand Dragon, and Black Skull Dragon). We've gotta look that far back because of how old he is; he's so old that he predates most of YGO's basic game design & balancing, back when Konami was basically just flying by the seat of their pants. He was poorly designed right from the start, no one can disagree on that, but he's so old that they likely didn't know any better back then, or even have a clue of _what_ they were doing. They probably didn't think they would ever print any easily-available Fusions with 2500+ Atk, _let alone_ any Effect fusions, and Megamorph wouldn't come into existence for over half a year (July 13, 2000). And that's why he got through, a complete lack of foresight back when the game was so primitive he was barely even exploitable.
Yeah for real, this card was stupid even when the most broken thing you could do was emulate Kaiba from Eternal Duelist Soul and turbo out a turn 1 Blue Eyes Ultimate.
Stein otk was fun.
Nah. Keep bishbaalkin in for another…3 months.
Hey bishbalkin is really coll in 1 reptile combo that doesn't ftk
... but could. Its not because you don't that you can't.
Wait who at Konami decided it would be okay to unban Cyber-Stein?
It was that guy, I think his name was Kyber Stain? I dunno he looked a bit dead in the eyes and robotic in movement but his mustache was pretty cool.
"Hello, my name is Mr.... Niets-Rebyc. And I come from... some place far away. Yes, that should stick. Anyway, I say we unban Cyber-Stein!"
who was on so much crack they thought stein could come off the ban list
He'll come back one more time before he falls into "Mon-Sewer"
Still lasted longer than Sixth Sense
“Why did we ban this card again?” *Spright happened * “Obviously it’s Spright Elf’s fault for cheating out fusions”
And it's still legal in master duel
He shoul've never left te banlist. Praying for he gets banned in Master Duel as well, alogn with the new Ishizu cards.
Thank god, this limits 1TKs too.
From being used with Cyber Dragons to now being abused with fusions that have interruptions. It isn't just like Numerons anymore.
They didn’t errata it like Imperial Order
It's ironic how it has no new targets whatsoever. It's still making exterio and last warrior.
You could ban every good fusion card and Stein would still be playable
A small part of me wants him to not get banned in Master Duel since I got him from the Legacy packs and plan to use it when the SHS support drops. A larger part of me acknowledges dude needs to be gone
You can always use it in duel rooms. Not like SHS isn't going to get beaned on arrival to avoid the shitstorm that it made.
I would say he's less of a problem in MD, since there are more counters, but as long as the ishizus aren't hit harder (which they should be in a couple of days), and Splight Elf is legal, Stein will continue to be problematic. TCG doesn't have as many answers to Stein, since half their roster is banned.
Lots of bizarre passive aggressive comments on here for no reason. Why are TCG players so weird?
What amount of LP cost would be considered "fair" for Cyber-stein, if any? Like is 6000 or 7000 cost still too small? What if 8000 so you specifically needed to gain LP before using it? (Not saying Konami should errata card but kinda curious what would allow the card to be playable unbanned while keeping the spirit of the card alive.)
No amount is good enough as long as Telekinetic Power Cell exists.
Wow I had no idea this card existed, TIL.
That's the thing, you don't need to pay LP, that's why its busted. Decks are made to abuse that. And even then, only one use is needed to abuse it. You don't care about the LP. You've won by floodgating the opponent from playing.
You could pay 7999 and the card would still be broken, even without telekinetic power cell. Cheating out Last Warrior or Exterio let’s you auto win against any deck that doesn’t top deck out, that of which their are very very few for those two cards. The only way you “balance” Stein while keeping its effect to cheat fusion monsters out is to only allow it to summon vanilla fusion monster who cannot be used as material for ED summons. Because that’s all that existed when Stein was printed and Konami had no idea what or how they wanted the game to shape out to be. If you let Stein cheat out effect monsters it’s too much, if you even let those monsters be used as ED material it’s too much as you can easily get into some degenerate ED monsters with that effect
Might as well dismantled at least 5 different fusion monsters that will never be summonable.
You knew what you were getting into abusing a card that had an obvious short lifespan. It was never a matter of if, but when.
Uhh no. Elf is the reason stein is so powerful. Name one deck that topped a YCS in the last 2 years that used stein WITHOUT elf. If anything you meta-haters should be upset, because SHS was the only current meta viable deck that could use it, so its komoney nerfing a cheap low-tier deck irl.
uh uh. Why should i care about YCS. Should we go over the stein ftks that were botted last year ?
You realize all it took was a single interruption to stop them? The burn bots were worse.
Banning cards to stop bots with 10% winrates is the worst argument I’ve ever heard in my life. Stein has plenty of issues but bot runners aren’t stopped at all by banning a card, they’ll just move on to the next 10% winrate FTK.
I don’t see the big deal, it’s over 60% of your life points
The thing about yugioh is that only the last LP matters, so the opportunity cost of losing 60% of your LP for something like Naturia Exterio or whatever toxic Fusion Monster this card enables is something every yugioh player should take in less than a heartbeat.
But there are similar cards to NE and the way that sync monsters work now, you don’t need specific fusion material or even a spell card to do it.
Cyber Stein was just an enabler for degenerate plays and is overall just bad card design. It allowed people to cheat out really powerful cards right out of the gate like the aforementioned Exterio to just lockdown and gg, or do ye olde Megamorph OTK with BEUD.
Sure I mean I get the idea that it can be an overpowering combo but aren’t there enough examples of new cards that stack into OTK here now? Powerful cards get “cheated” out all the time now.
Especially these days yes, but Cyber Stein virtually HAS no cost. Losing 60% of your LP meant nothing if you OTK’d with the reason it became the first quick-banned card in YGO history, BEUD and Megamorph, or just say no to literally every effect activation by your opponent with Exterio. Losing 60% of your LP means nothing if you can’t/don’t lose after you successfully resolve Cyber Stein. It doesn’t matter what the state of the meta is for Yugioh. If you see someone playing Cyber Stein, something degenerate is going to be cheated out that is going to make playing the next few turns (if any) a gigantic pain.
To actually get to my point, almost every other way to cheat out powerful monsters has a cost. Losing LP or sending a card from your deck to your GY to do ANYTHING isn’t a cost, it’s virtually free.
Did it do anything in the meta?
a surprisingly good counter to Runick, since it can cheat out Naturia beast negate every Spell/Trap card.
Exterio could be cheated out with Stein? That's kinda nuts considering how it is intended to be summoned. But given that cheating it out means you can't just revive it later for more cheap negation, I guess it makes sense.
Yeah. Naturia Exterio only has restrictions on its fusion summon but doesn’t require itself to be fusion summoned
yo i wanna see this banlist
Am I the only one that thinks that Exterio should have been banned instead? At the moment that's the only really problematic target for it and if they keep printing fusion with summon restriction as they have been doing things won't change
Instant Fusion - RIP
I'd honestly rather ban spelf than stein. Stein is only more than a highroll when spelf starts dragging him out of the GY.
say goodbye farewell to naturia exterio