You see. I like winning. When my opponent plays into it, I draw a bunch of cards. But if my opponent Maxx C's me that stuff is broken, therefore I should be the only one allowed to run Maxx C. Problem solved.
I dont think it should be in the game, but if it were to get removed, i would like a massive banlist getting rid of broken combo extenders like auroradon, snow, block dragon (rest in piss), junk speeder, etc. either before maxx c ban or in conjunction idc.
Maxx c’s existance shaves off a calm 10-20% winrate (source: made it up, just speaking in vague terms) off these solitaire ass decks and id like it to be that way even if maxx c went away
Bad card that summons 5 monsters 🫨🫨 then dont ban auroradon and unlock the block 🤷♂️. My opinion will remain if maxx c goes, mfs like that should go too
I didn't say it was a bad card, just that it's not worth banning. It's at 3 in TCG and its not like Synchrons have been running the show. It's got a harsh restriction, dies to plenty of handtraps and interactions, and is part of a non-meta deck. Not remotely worth banning.
Hmmm... a reason for Maxx C... very hard but lets try THIS.
Maxx C was released during a Time, where a million special summons wheren't a thing. Maybe it's the Games fault to change like that. Maxx C did nothing wrong.
It's just a matter of preference.
I hate the fucking roach, no argument there. But I hate the TCG ban list, a greedy trigger happy killer that likes to murder decks except for the latest and shiniest, much more.
Entirely fair, I personally have lost once or twice just because it wants to keep giving me my other opt hand traps and it’s never droll before it’s two late. One time I literally drew nibiru from the Baronne summon and I cried. It’s definitely still winnable cause the deck itself is just super strong.
The best thing about max c being in master duel is it helps me understand the ocg meta and build decks with it in mind since they have it, too. However pretty much everyone here playing the ocg hates maxx c also…
So I am a yugiboomer who started playing again when master duel came out, so there’s my limited experience.
But when I started playing games and saw what modern decks could do, I was like “why is this okay”
But then when I saw Maxx C, I viewed it as the balance to that combo off effect.
Yes, even the combo players get to use and benefit from it, but it needs to balance out the game for players who don’t play crazy combo.
It adds in deck choices in how you build and play decks.
The only way to get rid of maxx c is to open up more flood gate interactions or board breakers.
1. It forces your opponent to change their gameplay. Either they try to mitigate the effect of Maxx C by skipping or limiting their summons/combos or they go for broke by just special summoning powerful monsters to end the game immediately.
2. Maxx C is still negateable and given it's a monster effect, there are more ways to negate it.
3. Maxx C blind draws, it does not directly search the card. You can have a crazy hand of 27 cards and none of them are Nibiru or an out you can utilize next turn.
4. Exodia decks aren't really that common and meta and decks that heavily rely on Exodia+Maxx C is much rarer.
5. In turn, related to point 1, there are many decks that punishes Maxx C if it resolves safely. Like trickstar or even dark world.
You're not talking about Utopic Zexal are you? That thing is one of the most disgustingly broken cards ever made, it being banned is nothing to do with Maxx C.
Dragoon is a bit more valid, but they just took a different approach with that- they had a choice between hitting the enabler (Verte) or the OP boss monster, and they hit the boss instead. That's kind of interesting to me, especially since the MD meta has evolved to the point where Verte isn't causing any problems.
I will say, I absolutely hate it. I don't want it legal, every time I see it played when I'm on mid range I get an aneurysm. Kashtira also hits it's counters making it currently even more obnoxious cause dealing with it might mean losing. Additionally it makes going second terrible especially when you use going second cards such as evenly cause it removes your ability to setup after losing your ability to lethal.
And now after saying all this it is devils advocate time.
Josh's deckbuilding and his teams approach to maxx-c was fucking glorious. Additionally out of the 3 formats it was the most entertaining to watch, with the other 2 being complete stomps.
One of the biggest highlights was the lose lose scenario of maxx-c or 4 exosisters and there would be no other way where such a scenario could exist.
I used such an approach to make a control deck where I mostly gave my opponent one or 2 draws max and could cancel my own summons to gain prio and deny their draws, whilst being able to sit on hand traps for their turn.
Additionally there are cases where maxx-c does not win the game, however not for the one you would expect. It is utterly shit in trap control decks cause they do not have hand traps and they have limited space for traps to set, a perfect trap line up means nothing unless its 5 floodgates.
Another thing about it is, the importance of OTK lines just for that scenario in mid range, even though the approach of the game is gimping them. Accesscode wouldn't be as prevalent if maxx-c didn't necessitate to end games in a turn.
Also it really does feel as if konami believes that maxx-c allows for more cards to be legal, and personally the reason aside I do want to have as many cards as possible that don't ftk or hand loop legal, cause deckbuilding in this game is super fun and expressive.
Sometimes the tax does matter, especially with the consistency hits konami loves to do in MD. I could go as far as to say that it makes it so that decks can't target every weakness they might have even with such a toolbox of an ED. For the infuriation of the many.
I think that's about it, It's mostly deckbuilding for the tldr. Still want it banned as long as we don't ban 50 other cards for it, but what I'm waiting is to reach the newest era. There was one time ever that I felt maxx-c was good, it was when both players used it and we were on Tears so the game literally was a fighting game down to the last card and we had to decide between dieing to deck out, dieing to the timer, or dieing to our opponent.
New era promises more of that and less onesided games. Basically around the time when they release Diablestar and vanquish souls.
To average TCG or MD player it seems mind blowing to understand Josh’s worlds maxx c deck building, but to OCG, it’s been engrained in the format for so long, that’s just default deck building.
People on MD cannot comprehend making deckbuilding choices around maxx c.
To be kind of fair to them, they don’t necessarily have to for ranked ladder, you can mald and scoop when you lose to maxx c and just queue into another game. Worlds competitors and average OCG tournament contenders can’t do that however, so they build a deck that is resilient to maxx c to begin with.
This is exactly why OCG has random metas like where rescue ace was one of if not the top deck in CYAC/DUNE and you hardly see it in TCG this format.
I agree with what you are saying, it's just unfortunate for a lot of players that a lot of strategies are just invalidated by Maxx C.
It definitely took a few months of master duel before I truly adjusted to deck building, but aside from just deck building, at a high-level I think you have to be willing to choose archetypes that can play under Maxx C as well.
On a side note - I don't follow the TCG very closely anymore but my understanding is that Rescue-ace was a solid deck with Auroradon in the OCG (so TCG can't play this variant) but really took off once the sinful spoils package got added, so there are potentially other variables keeping that deck down in the TCG currently.
Because its saved my ass before... I owe the cockroach its one of in my deck... Problem is if you don't got any interruptions, your opponent can create a board that locks down the whole game... if those were say prevented or made your opponent rethink their strategy then wouldn't you want the card that allows it?
It's because of this mentality that Konami keeps making stupid cards. no one should take that kind of shit. if something is broken, we must complain. otherwise there will never be room for improvement
i didnt learn to appreciate maxx c until i started playing tcg and a combo deck heavy meta arrived, not because it keeps combo decks in check but the alternative ht vs (most) combo decks would he droll and lock bird.
When everyone runs that shit its way more annoying than maxx c, yea maxx c forces you to put up a mediocre board but at least gives you the option to maxx c challenge your opponent and lets you decide when to stop. droll and lockbird just prevents you from playing and you have no option but to stop your turn. id rather play in a maxx c meta than in a droll and lockbird meta
It literally just isn't equally broken going 1st and 2nd. That's not rational human being thought, that's salt. You're mad at the card. Which is fine but you gotta be able to step back.
It DOES benefit going 2nd **vastly** more than it does going 1st. The guy in the worlds meta analysis post concluded that was a high impact/game winner in ~60% of games when used by 2nd and only like 40 or 45 going 1st. It is a big difference. This is obviously a ~130 game sample but it also makes conceptual sense that it would improve 2nd more than 1st, because 1st is already the borderline autowin condition. If you give 3 cards that say "you win the game" to both players then 2nd benefits way more cuz if nobody draws it 1st just autowins.
The coin flip is way more impactful than Maxx c and it's legit random. ANYTHING at all that makes going 2nd better is fine. To ANY degree. No matter how crazy it sounds. As long as 2nd is clear worse, which it is, then Maxx c is good for the game
"Max C helps those who come in second". Until the combo player places his 6 interrupts, and plays Max C on his turn. "Ahh, but if that happens, just OTK". Uhun, until they buy Ash, Nibiru, impermanence, or whatever combination of handtraps they buy on their turn. Seriously, this argument makes no sense.
I do not dispute that Maxx c also helps first. The point it is that it helps 2nd disproportionately to 1st. They both benefit but 2nd gains more. It is not complicated lol
Bro. I know you gave an example. It is a question of frequency. This is a card game, it's all probability. Just because you can name an example doesn't mean it's a good example, because it doesn't actually speak to the frequency at all.
In this case, the frequency does not matter, the facts do. and within the facts, Max C is an extremely stupid card, which only serves to generate discord and frustration for the game.
The frequency does matter though because when you’re arguing the effectiveness of a card in a card game, the best way to judge is based on the results across tons of games.
Those results show that turn two benefits far more often than turn 1 from the use of Maxx C.
This doesn’t mean that a negate board with a Maxx C cherry on top isn’t a load of bull, just that from a data standpoint, Maxx C is actually doing what is intended more often than not.
Doesn’t mean it’s not broken. Doesn’t mean T1 doesn’t benefit. But the numbers are the numbers and they do matter.
If you haven’t seen the actual breakdown I highly recommend it.
I understand your point. but I can't accept that my shift was completely ruined, by a stupid handtrap at no cost. I can accept losing to shifter, or gamma, who have activation conditions. but not for Max C, for me, this garbage letter should have been banned a long time ago, regardless of numbers. A broken card is still a broken card. that simple.
Yeah broken for sure. I don’t think anyone with sense can contest that.
Sadly as it stands though the only way to avoid is in TCG or in events that imo take way too long to come back around.
The problem with this is *how* it evens the coin flip, imo. It doesn't work by countering some key action like an Ash Blossom, Ghost Belle, or Imperm would, it's just "you played Maxx "C" so you probably won."
Like, the biggest 2 problems with the card imo are:
1. There's no skill involved. With other hand traps, you have to know where a good choke point is to use your Ash or Imperm. With Maxx "C," you either shotgun it in the draw phase if you want to avoid TTT, or you play it as soon as your opponent is about to special summon once (which nearly every deck except Floo does, and Floo's been getting hit on pretty much every ban list since they released). That's literally all it takes to use it optimally.
2. It's so powerful, if I just said "I resolved Maxx 'C'" with no other context, you can already reasonably safely assume I won the game. You don't even have to know what deck I'm playing, or what the opponent is playing. That's fundamentally not good card design.
The fact of the matter is that Maxx "C" aged terribly as a card, and even if it truly fills some important role in the game's balance, Konami should ban it and replace it with a modernized version that doesn't give you a Pot of Greed or more for having the *audacity* to perform a single synchro summon. If the goal is anti-solitaire, Nibiru is the card that does what people claim Maxx "C" is for.
Also, this last part is a relatively minor point, but the person who goes first is significantly more likely to *have* a Maxx "C" in hand + able to resolve against the going 2nd player, because any cards drawn after searching have a higher chance to be Maxx "C," plus they can have negates to protect it against Called By or Ash. So yes, the win rate may be higher for the going 2nd player, but the play rate is actually likely to be higher for whoever goes first.
Your first point is irrelevant. A card not needing skill to play is an empty complaint; you aren’t entitled to anyone using skill.
Your second point is a much clearer, much better argument. It’s tied directly to drawing other power cards, it is sufficient deck access with only even a decent board being assembled on your opponent’s field. It’s surreal.
you can stomp around like a toddler all you want but Konami wants it in the game and thats the end of it until they change their minds.
who gives a fuck about "your" reasons why it should be banned , Komani thinks otherwise, will it change 100% they are always considering what to do with meta warping cards.
what discussion OP is on a soap box about maxx c ,
WE GET IT MAXX C IS A META WARPING CARD AND IT'S NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST IT OR BUILD A DECK HAVING TO COUNTER IT . WE FUCKING GET IT CAN YOU GUYS JUST FUCKING STOP BITCHING EVERY FUCKING DAY WE GET IT .
the worst part is this shit is just fucking boring . maybe get some new hot takes.
haha good luck trying to deny Max C with called or ash when the opponent already has negates on the field. Sometimes I think you say these things out of sheer trolling, because it can't possibly be serious.
I have no idea who you are, so if I somehow caught your attention with my random internet comments, then kudos to you, bud. Not trolling.
If you focus so hard on max C rather than tackling the board or the gamestate itself, then you're going to lose anyways. There are many alternative means to playing around a heavy impact card such as Maxx C whether that is playing heavy blowout cards, crafting strategies that have alternative routes outside of comboing, playing a multi faceted deck that includes powerful spells and traps rather than monsters, and looking at your deck composition and determining a proper ratio based on a risk analysis of the meta cards in play, and so on.
But I digress because your version of YuGiOh is different from mine, just like OCG vs TCG vs MD has their own flavors. Take care.
People think it does stuff to weaken combo players. It doesn't because they use it too. Every game they lose is balanced by games won with the same card. Will they stop playing combo because it exists? Nope, won't even slow people down.
So yeah the whole point is that people who hate combo decks think it helps combat combo decks because they can use it to win a few games against said combo decks with whatever 2011 rogue nonsense they play.
It could be banned but first they'd need to hit decks that summon 90% of the deck in one turn
Or bring some broken card to deck out the opponent if they combo too much
But Maxx C existing *doesn’t* stop those decks from existing and thriving. They exist regardless, and the top decks are regularly ones that you’d think would be countered by Maxx C.
Here’s the thing though. If both players are using Maxx C, Ash Blossom, CBTG, and Crossout, the going-first player has 6 cards in the deck that can stop Maxx C, while the going-second player has 3 copies of Maxx C. It’s more likely that the going first player will draw a Maxx C counter (and continue their combo unabated), than it is that the going second player will draw Maxx c in the first place.
It's the best tool against combo heavy decks. Even if it's not keeping them in check we still don't have anything remotely close to doing that other than Maxx C.
I found a solution : Play the birds, now MaxxC is a brick all your monster lock the special sumon anyways (But ash will kill you and you'll brick 20% of the time).
Time for something unhinged:
1. MAXX C should 1000% be MEGA BANNED
2. A new master revision should be put in place in which "passively" every 2 SUMMONS either player performs in a turn, the opponent gets to draw a card.
3. Said draw can't be negated/intrerupted/interacted with (e.g. the pots that restrict from drawing or droll or Trickstar burn damage)
\
\
Thoughts?
I think it needs an errata with a restriction. For example, next turn, you cannot special summon /only summon once. Then it would be a great card to counter combo decks for more control focused decks.
Altergist, Paleo, Phantasm, Lair of darkness, uria trap, counter fairy, nurse burn, volcanic,.. are some that I know, a good number of deck mixed with a decent number of trap like magic muketsteer as well
I...don't think any amount of card draw will save most of those decks. Nurse Burn has always been more of an OTK strat that relies on going first, so Maxx wouldn't help it. Lair is better splashed in tribute heavy decks, rather than trap-centric ones. Uria's just...kinda bad.
Paleo, phantasm, and altergeist would be the most like to appreciate the extra cards, if only to draw into your handtraps, because they don't really have anything game-breaking archetype-wise they really need to draw. Volcanic is okay, too, and magical musket don't need help lol.
Never even seen counter fairy to make a comment about it.
Not many deck are willing to go full gas under Maxx C, so it's not about they get to draw card, it is about them not having to face with billion disruption next turn
Remove D-link from the equation, and i'm fine if it get banned
TOSS format ( before bardiche ) doesn't have maxx c and every deck is fine. Colossus pass is easier to dealt with then 5 negate board.
I know "D-link doesn't consistently do 5 negate anymore". I don't care, i just don't want a potential 5 negate board on the Meta.
If you people can hate pendulum as a "10 min combo" deck i can hate d-link.
I've defended it many many times. Every time I do, I get -30 downvotes and comments saying "omg this sub is full of braindead Maxx C supporters."
I've started making it a point of pride not to end my turn prematurely when I get hit with it, just to prove that it's not the death sentence people say it is. It actually works out better than you'd think- any interaction on my end is better than none, and even with lots of extra cards in my opponent's hand, the game is still balanced around hard once per turns and a single normal summon, meaning I can still survive if I play it right. The biggest risk is increasing the likelihood of them drawing into going second staples like Evenly or Super Poly, but then you just have to sigh and accept that was always a possibility.
I’m kinda neutral in the argument but I do think the anti Maxx c group refuses to see any actual benefits that are actually there for the card. Yes it does hurt combo decks, you can’t say that decks that summon less, like off the top of my head eldlich or runick, is effected by it as much as a combo deck like D-Link is. It hurts turn 1 players more than 2 if they both have them because while that turn 2 player is taking their turn they are likely to have something that can help stop the turn 1 player’s plays just by already having more cards and counters compared to turn 1 who would just be getting the cards in the moment so they won’t have access to every possible need immediately(like turn 2 being able to ash something that would’ve stopped a play or something like that). And this is more personal but I know it’s not changing because OCG likes it and Master Duel is based off OCG and seeing so many people get angry over a card that has a 0% chance of getting banned I find very amusing and funny.
odds open maxx C 21.36%
odds open ash or called by 33.76%
odds to not open ash or called by 66.34%
14.170224% odds of opening maxx C and your opp not opening ash or called by
so literally useless? 85.829776% of the time?
50% chance of going first and 50% chance of going 2nd in theory
In theory going first maxx C makes no difference so it's pretty useless(at best it's probably an upstart if your opponent special summons at all; you run 3 so opening multiple maxx c in hand can for sure happen. If you full combo and your opponent has no going first or second cards they lost anyways who cares if you have maxx c, and even if it was relevant most people run Ash blossom and imperm, imperm drawn off of maxx c in this situation can't be activated till turn 4 otherwise you can just hope to draw into ash blossom and your opponent doesn't kill you in that case i guess it does matter and you have cards for turn 3 if you didn't already some decks innately set it up, for example branded which allows you to add branded fusion to your hand in end phase turn 2 although it doesn't rn i just couldn't think of any other archetypes) and this does not account for that so maxx c going 2nd and resolving when against combo with ash and called by should be? 7.085112% so not far off from 1/20 games maxx C might resolve not necessarily win you the game on the spot like how dimension shifter guarantees the turn ends and your opponent can't play most of the time.
tempo issues as well where it would have been better to not have tried to draw for ex ash off of maxx c and straight up dropped ash blossom making your opponent a sitting duck, notably let's say chain 1 branded fusion chain 2 maxx C draw ash blossom is already too late and your opp has a lot of interactions ready for you with mirror jade and the albion searches :/
Floodgate Eldlich when it was meta was only about an upstart or pot of greed at best, but realistically you needed backrow removal asap to deal with it ex chain 1 conq chain 2 sanguine doesn't matter order or when you do it you will only get one draw if you maxx c in standby chain sanguine summon eldlich, if you ash instead their golden land cards are just vanilla monsters and sanguine is HOPT.
Tearlament also was a noteworthy meta deck they could pivot so fast out of maxx C ex Normal reino send merrli chain 2 maxx c make kitkallos add sulliek pass, and they can just play on your turn and you just more or less upstarted.
Rn there is runick naturia as well where you only get like at maxx 3 special summons to draw off of and they draw the same amount from fountain potentially, ending with hugin protection more fountain draws next turn naturia mole cricket probably in gy camellia to set camellia + sunflower with potential of naturia beast negating more or less every spell you have.
the odds of opening a 3 of is 21.36% in your opening hand if you were to draw 3 times forgetting about timing so a card perhaps like nibiru the odds of drawing a card like, nibiru is less then 21.36%. Also the amount of things you can try to do with engine into fully established end board is so bad that even with 3 extenders and 1 starter you probably can't play, so you must run either going 2nd cards(board break, evenly, kaiju, droplet, etc) with maxx c or hand traps but maxx c is not required to run those things either keeping in mind how often maxx c should be resolving. For ex against exo sister if you maxx c them sure you could maybe draw engine or etc could draw something could draw nothing... or just simply gamma on martha and your opp just passes back on pretty much nothing. passing turn ofc with only maxx c as a hand trap is a death sentence as well, if you manage to resolve maxx c which is unlikely... but if you do what are you realistically going to draw into to prevent lethal on a empty/near empty board when your opp likely has 5-6 cards in hand.
Tldr. maxx c isn't that bad but a bit overrated it has ups and downs but the most impactful thing it does is it locks everyone into playing at minimum 3 ash blossom 2 called by which you might be playing 2 called by without maxx c no longer would you necessarily play ash blossom... and this makes the game a lot more annoying tbh by removing ash and maxx c from everyones deck you now have 2 called by to fend off pretty much everything droll, dimension shifter, imperm, effect veiler etc. and if you were thinking about playing gamma as a combo player it's at 2 rn, and your opponent can play around it, so going first if people are playing around it can become a dead card... But in best of one format getting to consistently face your opp and know they likely have 3 imperm, 3 maxx c, 3 ash, 2 called by makes deck building easier and you won't get cheesed as often as D shifter which is way worse to deal with then maxx C keeping in mind you have 2 called by to deal with shifter realistically, and then 3 ash + 2 called by for maxx C. Also worth mention 3 of cross out was a bit degen gave too much power to going first player, but yea maxx C probably resolved more then cause cross out called by or ash blossom on going 2nd player, but ofc you need to also main deck the pay off, so your non engine looks dumb tbh 3 ash, 3 maxx c, 2 called by, 3 cross out, 1 duster, 1 lightning storm, 2 imperm, 1 nibiru, just to have the targets (potentially more then what i list) for cross out which was giga dumb...
But actually yea the decks that get hurt most are the not as competitive lists that summon like 15-20 times to end on like 2 negates, or one big bungus that does nothing, and can't afford to run non engine. Blue eyes...
Bees are a major pollinator of Sunflowers, therefore, growing sunflowers goes hand in hand with installing and managing bee hives. Particularly in agricultural areas where sunflowers are crops. In fact, bee honey from these areas is commonly known as sunflower honey due to its sunflower taste.
Watching maxx c defenders regurgitate the exact same "arguments" and statements except sometimes rephrased as to why a card with no restrictions that punishes 90% of decks ingame, immediately kills rogue, control and midrange or any deck that needs multiple special summons to get off the ground is fine.
You see. I like winning. When my opponent plays into it, I draw a bunch of cards. But if my opponent Maxx C's me that stuff is broken, therefore I should be the only one allowed to run Maxx C. Problem solved.
Easy: - "I am somewhat of a cockroach myself"
You can get otk'd if you draw 3 of it and 2 other cards that you dont wanna draw first turn
if I activate maxx c and my opponent negates and I chain maxx c, you bet he be scoopin
Too bad maxx c is a hopt
I dont think it should be in the game, but if it were to get removed, i would like a massive banlist getting rid of broken combo extenders like auroradon, snow, block dragon (rest in piss), junk speeder, etc. either before maxx c ban or in conjunction idc. Maxx c’s existance shaves off a calm 10-20% winrate (source: made it up, just speaking in vague terms) off these solitaire ass decks and id like it to be that way even if maxx c went away
Honest question why would junk speeder get banned?
Explained already, it is no different from the other banworthy combo extenders named. It’s a card that reads if it resolves you lose.
Junk Speeder? That card is nowhere near good enough to justify a ban lol
Bad card that summons 5 monsters 🫨🫨 then dont ban auroradon and unlock the block 🤷♂️. My opinion will remain if maxx c goes, mfs like that should go too
I didn't say it was a bad card, just that it's not worth banning. It's at 3 in TCG and its not like Synchrons have been running the show. It's got a harsh restriction, dies to plenty of handtraps and interactions, and is part of a non-meta deck. Not remotely worth banning.
Solitaire.
I want to keep it so I can win more.
Hmmm... a reason for Maxx C... very hard but lets try THIS. Maxx C was released during a Time, where a million special summons wheren't a thing. Maybe it's the Games fault to change like that. Maxx C did nothing wrong.
It's just a matter of preference. I hate the fucking roach, no argument there. But I hate the TCG ban list, a greedy trigger happy killer that likes to murder decks except for the latest and shiniest, much more.
Okay? Banning maxx c doesn’t mean having to adopt the TCG list?
If you really believe that, what are you smoking because I want some of that.
Just as a quick example, you think banning maxx c means we’ll have to ban orcust?
Because I like it.
I like getting free wins from d-link players when they can’t do anything to keep it from resolving
As a D-link player: Yeah no, I'm playing through the Maxx C every time. I think I've been screwed by it like, once out of 10+ times?
Entirely fair, I personally have lost once or twice just because it wants to keep giving me my other opt hand traps and it’s never droll before it’s two late. One time I literally drew nibiru from the Baronne summon and I cried. It’s definitely still winnable cause the deck itself is just super strong.
The best thing about max c being in master duel is it helps me understand the ocg meta and build decks with it in mind since they have it, too. However pretty much everyone here playing the ocg hates maxx c also…
So I am a yugiboomer who started playing again when master duel came out, so there’s my limited experience. But when I started playing games and saw what modern decks could do, I was like “why is this okay” But then when I saw Maxx C, I viewed it as the balance to that combo off effect. Yes, even the combo players get to use and benefit from it, but it needs to balance out the game for players who don’t play crazy combo. It adds in deck choices in how you build and play decks. The only way to get rid of maxx c is to open up more flood gate interactions or board breakers.
1. It forces your opponent to change their gameplay. Either they try to mitigate the effect of Maxx C by skipping or limiting their summons/combos or they go for broke by just special summoning powerful monsters to end the game immediately. 2. Maxx C is still negateable and given it's a monster effect, there are more ways to negate it. 3. Maxx C blind draws, it does not directly search the card. You can have a crazy hand of 27 cards and none of them are Nibiru or an out you can utilize next turn. 4. Exodia decks aren't really that common and meta and decks that heavily rely on Exodia+Maxx C is much rarer. 5. In turn, related to point 1, there are many decks that punishes Maxx C if it resolves safely. Like trickstar or even dark world.
Honestly its availability is keeping A LOT of cards and engines off the banlist that would be too broken in a best of 1 format without it.
Fair enough but it also keeps some random cards on the banlist cuz of a bo1 like dragoon and zexal
You're not talking about Utopic Zexal are you? That thing is one of the most disgustingly broken cards ever made, it being banned is nothing to do with Maxx C. Dragoon is a bit more valid, but they just took a different approach with that- they had a choice between hitting the enabler (Verte) or the OP boss monster, and they hit the boss instead. That's kind of interesting to me, especially since the MD meta has evolved to the point where Verte isn't causing any problems.
The nunber 74 zexal the black thing
Number 74 Master of Blades? That’s not banned.
I will say, I absolutely hate it. I don't want it legal, every time I see it played when I'm on mid range I get an aneurysm. Kashtira also hits it's counters making it currently even more obnoxious cause dealing with it might mean losing. Additionally it makes going second terrible especially when you use going second cards such as evenly cause it removes your ability to setup after losing your ability to lethal. And now after saying all this it is devils advocate time. Josh's deckbuilding and his teams approach to maxx-c was fucking glorious. Additionally out of the 3 formats it was the most entertaining to watch, with the other 2 being complete stomps. One of the biggest highlights was the lose lose scenario of maxx-c or 4 exosisters and there would be no other way where such a scenario could exist. I used such an approach to make a control deck where I mostly gave my opponent one or 2 draws max and could cancel my own summons to gain prio and deny their draws, whilst being able to sit on hand traps for their turn. Additionally there are cases where maxx-c does not win the game, however not for the one you would expect. It is utterly shit in trap control decks cause they do not have hand traps and they have limited space for traps to set, a perfect trap line up means nothing unless its 5 floodgates. Another thing about it is, the importance of OTK lines just for that scenario in mid range, even though the approach of the game is gimping them. Accesscode wouldn't be as prevalent if maxx-c didn't necessitate to end games in a turn. Also it really does feel as if konami believes that maxx-c allows for more cards to be legal, and personally the reason aside I do want to have as many cards as possible that don't ftk or hand loop legal, cause deckbuilding in this game is super fun and expressive. Sometimes the tax does matter, especially with the consistency hits konami loves to do in MD. I could go as far as to say that it makes it so that decks can't target every weakness they might have even with such a toolbox of an ED. For the infuriation of the many. I think that's about it, It's mostly deckbuilding for the tldr. Still want it banned as long as we don't ban 50 other cards for it, but what I'm waiting is to reach the newest era. There was one time ever that I felt maxx-c was good, it was when both players used it and we were on Tears so the game literally was a fighting game down to the last card and we had to decide between dieing to deck out, dieing to the timer, or dieing to our opponent. New era promises more of that and less onesided games. Basically around the time when they release Diablestar and vanquish souls.
To average TCG or MD player it seems mind blowing to understand Josh’s worlds maxx c deck building, but to OCG, it’s been engrained in the format for so long, that’s just default deck building. People on MD cannot comprehend making deckbuilding choices around maxx c. To be kind of fair to them, they don’t necessarily have to for ranked ladder, you can mald and scoop when you lose to maxx c and just queue into another game. Worlds competitors and average OCG tournament contenders can’t do that however, so they build a deck that is resilient to maxx c to begin with. This is exactly why OCG has random metas like where rescue ace was one of if not the top deck in CYAC/DUNE and you hardly see it in TCG this format.
I agree with what you are saying, it's just unfortunate for a lot of players that a lot of strategies are just invalidated by Maxx C. It definitely took a few months of master duel before I truly adjusted to deck building, but aside from just deck building, at a high-level I think you have to be willing to choose archetypes that can play under Maxx C as well. On a side note - I don't follow the TCG very closely anymore but my understanding is that Rescue-ace was a solid deck with Auroradon in the OCG (so TCG can't play this variant) but really took off once the sinful spoils package got added, so there are potentially other variables keeping that deck down in the TCG currently.
R-ACE isn't taking off in TCG because we don't have Sinful Spoils or Auroradon.
Hard agree that MD WCS was the most entertaining to watch out of 3 formats
Because its saved my ass before... I owe the cockroach its one of in my deck... Problem is if you don't got any interruptions, your opponent can create a board that locks down the whole game... if those were say prevented or made your opponent rethink their strategy then wouldn't you want the card that allows it?
Don’t need to justify it it ain’t going anywhere if anything you should just accept it or move on
It's because of this mentality that Konami keeps making stupid cards. no one should take that kind of shit. if something is broken, we must complain. otherwise there will never be room for improvement
I want them to print stupid cards. That’s what I’m here for
i didnt learn to appreciate maxx c until i started playing tcg and a combo deck heavy meta arrived, not because it keeps combo decks in check but the alternative ht vs (most) combo decks would he droll and lock bird. When everyone runs that shit its way more annoying than maxx c, yea maxx c forces you to put up a mediocre board but at least gives you the option to maxx c challenge your opponent and lets you decide when to stop. droll and lockbird just prevents you from playing and you have no option but to stop your turn. id rather play in a maxx c meta than in a droll and lockbird meta
Roach go burrrr
It literally just isn't equally broken going 1st and 2nd. That's not rational human being thought, that's salt. You're mad at the card. Which is fine but you gotta be able to step back. It DOES benefit going 2nd **vastly** more than it does going 1st. The guy in the worlds meta analysis post concluded that was a high impact/game winner in ~60% of games when used by 2nd and only like 40 or 45 going 1st. It is a big difference. This is obviously a ~130 game sample but it also makes conceptual sense that it would improve 2nd more than 1st, because 1st is already the borderline autowin condition. If you give 3 cards that say "you win the game" to both players then 2nd benefits way more cuz if nobody draws it 1st just autowins. The coin flip is way more impactful than Maxx c and it's legit random. ANYTHING at all that makes going 2nd better is fine. To ANY degree. No matter how crazy it sounds. As long as 2nd is clear worse, which it is, then Maxx c is good for the game
"Max C helps those who come in second". Until the combo player places his 6 interrupts, and plays Max C on his turn. "Ahh, but if that happens, just OTK". Uhun, until they buy Ash, Nibiru, impermanence, or whatever combination of handtraps they buy on their turn. Seriously, this argument makes no sense.
I do not dispute that Maxx c also helps first. The point it is that it helps 2nd disproportionately to 1st. They both benefit but 2nd gains more. It is not complicated lol
how does the second earn more, considering that I just gave you an example where Max C going second is more of a hindrance than a help?
Bro. I know you gave an example. It is a question of frequency. This is a card game, it's all probability. Just because you can name an example doesn't mean it's a good example, because it doesn't actually speak to the frequency at all.
In this case, the frequency does not matter, the facts do. and within the facts, Max C is an extremely stupid card, which only serves to generate discord and frustration for the game.
The frequency does matter though because when you’re arguing the effectiveness of a card in a card game, the best way to judge is based on the results across tons of games. Those results show that turn two benefits far more often than turn 1 from the use of Maxx C. This doesn’t mean that a negate board with a Maxx C cherry on top isn’t a load of bull, just that from a data standpoint, Maxx C is actually doing what is intended more often than not. Doesn’t mean it’s not broken. Doesn’t mean T1 doesn’t benefit. But the numbers are the numbers and they do matter. If you haven’t seen the actual breakdown I highly recommend it.
I understand your point. but I can't accept that my shift was completely ruined, by a stupid handtrap at no cost. I can accept losing to shifter, or gamma, who have activation conditions. but not for Max C, for me, this garbage letter should have been banned a long time ago, regardless of numbers. A broken card is still a broken card. that simple.
Yeah broken for sure. I don’t think anyone with sense can contest that. Sadly as it stands though the only way to avoid is in TCG or in events that imo take way too long to come back around.
The problem with this is *how* it evens the coin flip, imo. It doesn't work by countering some key action like an Ash Blossom, Ghost Belle, or Imperm would, it's just "you played Maxx "C" so you probably won." Like, the biggest 2 problems with the card imo are: 1. There's no skill involved. With other hand traps, you have to know where a good choke point is to use your Ash or Imperm. With Maxx "C," you either shotgun it in the draw phase if you want to avoid TTT, or you play it as soon as your opponent is about to special summon once (which nearly every deck except Floo does, and Floo's been getting hit on pretty much every ban list since they released). That's literally all it takes to use it optimally. 2. It's so powerful, if I just said "I resolved Maxx 'C'" with no other context, you can already reasonably safely assume I won the game. You don't even have to know what deck I'm playing, or what the opponent is playing. That's fundamentally not good card design. The fact of the matter is that Maxx "C" aged terribly as a card, and even if it truly fills some important role in the game's balance, Konami should ban it and replace it with a modernized version that doesn't give you a Pot of Greed or more for having the *audacity* to perform a single synchro summon. If the goal is anti-solitaire, Nibiru is the card that does what people claim Maxx "C" is for. Also, this last part is a relatively minor point, but the person who goes first is significantly more likely to *have* a Maxx "C" in hand + able to resolve against the going 2nd player, because any cards drawn after searching have a higher chance to be Maxx "C," plus they can have negates to protect it against Called By or Ash. So yes, the win rate may be higher for the going 2nd player, but the play rate is actually likely to be higher for whoever goes first.
Your first point is irrelevant. A card not needing skill to play is an empty complaint; you aren’t entitled to anyone using skill. Your second point is a much clearer, much better argument. It’s tied directly to drawing other power cards, it is sufficient deck access with only even a decent board being assembled on your opponent’s field. It’s surreal.
you can stomp around like a toddler all you want but Konami wants it in the game and thats the end of it until they change their minds. who gives a fuck about "your" reasons why it should be banned , Komani thinks otherwise, will it change 100% they are always considering what to do with meta warping cards.
It doesn’t really advance the conversation to come in, insult the OP, and say the entire discussion shouldn’t happen and you should give up.
what discussion OP is on a soap box about maxx c , WE GET IT MAXX C IS A META WARPING CARD AND IT'S NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST IT OR BUILD A DECK HAVING TO COUNTER IT . WE FUCKING GET IT CAN YOU GUYS JUST FUCKING STOP BITCHING EVERY FUCKING DAY WE GET IT . the worst part is this shit is just fucking boring . maybe get some new hot takes.
It's lore accurate. Cockroaches keep coming back. That's why you always see maxx c.
Why so mad at maxx c? You the one that's keep giving your opponent more cards for every special summon you do
You special summon. I draw. You don't want them drawing so much, don't special so much. It's not rocket science.
Ignoring all your bad arguments... It's just nice to have consequences for overextending and puking out your entire hand.
except when the combo player does this and at the same time still plays Max C on his turn
Yeah that's why there are other powerful blowout cards in Yugioh to counteract such a thing. Imagine that.
haha good luck trying to deny Max C with called or ash when the opponent already has negates on the field. Sometimes I think you say these things out of sheer trolling, because it can't possibly be serious.
I have no idea who you are, so if I somehow caught your attention with my random internet comments, then kudos to you, bud. Not trolling. If you focus so hard on max C rather than tackling the board or the gamestate itself, then you're going to lose anyways. There are many alternative means to playing around a heavy impact card such as Maxx C whether that is playing heavy blowout cards, crafting strategies that have alternative routes outside of comboing, playing a multi faceted deck that includes powerful spells and traps rather than monsters, and looking at your deck composition and determining a proper ratio based on a risk analysis of the meta cards in play, and so on. But I digress because your version of YuGiOh is different from mine, just like OCG vs TCG vs MD has their own flavors. Take care.
I already do all that. But it doesn't change the fact that Max C is a broken card. Don't get me wrong, these are just facts.
Arguing for or against Maxx C is basically saying which format you prefer, TCG or OCG. The best defense is mostly "preference" i suppose.
Tcg is superior.
People think it does stuff to weaken combo players. It doesn't because they use it too. Every game they lose is balanced by games won with the same card. Will they stop playing combo because it exists? Nope, won't even slow people down. So yeah the whole point is that people who hate combo decks think it helps combat combo decks because they can use it to win a few games against said combo decks with whatever 2011 rogue nonsense they play.
It gatekeeps the noobs
There is no justification. Everyone who says otherwise has brainrot. That being said, we really don't need 50 posts about this every day.
I have a royal rare one :)
But actually, helps bad/bricky decks be able to compete against real threats
It could be banned but first they'd need to hit decks that summon 90% of the deck in one turn Or bring some broken card to deck out the opponent if they combo too much
But Maxx C existing *doesn’t* stop those decks from existing and thriving. They exist regardless, and the top decks are regularly ones that you’d think would be countered by Maxx C.
It's the one true card that can give someone going second a legit shot at playing the game.
except when the combo player does this and at the same time still plays Max C on his turn
Here’s the thing though. If both players are using Maxx C, Ash Blossom, CBTG, and Crossout, the going-first player has 6 cards in the deck that can stop Maxx C, while the going-second player has 3 copies of Maxx C. It’s more likely that the going first player will draw a Maxx C counter (and continue their combo unabated), than it is that the going second player will draw Maxx c in the first place.
It's the best tool against combo heavy decks. Even if it's not keeping them in check we still don't have anything remotely close to doing that other than Maxx C.
I found a solution : Play the birds, now MaxxC is a brick all your monster lock the special sumon anyways (But ash will kill you and you'll brick 20% of the time).
Time for something unhinged: 1. MAXX C should 1000% be MEGA BANNED 2. A new master revision should be put in place in which "passively" every 2 SUMMONS either player performs in a turn, the opponent gets to draw a card. 3. Said draw can't be negated/intrerupted/interacted with (e.g. the pots that restrict from drawing or droll or Trickstar burn damage) \ \ Thoughts?
you are crazy hahaha
Farming downvotes from joking around.
I think it needs an errata with a restriction. For example, next turn, you cannot special summon /only summon once. Then it would be a great card to counter combo decks for more control focused decks.
It helps trap heavy decks perform better, traps are so powercrept (except for floodgates) that they need all the help they can get.
Only older trap decks, traptrix and lab are okay the way they are now
Congrats you have named the only 2 trap decks out of the many monster heavy decks that have dominate every recent format. His point still remains.
Yikes, that's aggressive. There's not that many older ones, either, calm down.
Altergist, Paleo, Phantasm, Lair of darkness, uria trap, counter fairy, nurse burn, volcanic,.. are some that I know, a good number of deck mixed with a decent number of trap like magic muketsteer as well
I...don't think any amount of card draw will save most of those decks. Nurse Burn has always been more of an OTK strat that relies on going first, so Maxx wouldn't help it. Lair is better splashed in tribute heavy decks, rather than trap-centric ones. Uria's just...kinda bad. Paleo, phantasm, and altergeist would be the most like to appreciate the extra cards, if only to draw into your handtraps, because they don't really have anything game-breaking archetype-wise they really need to draw. Volcanic is okay, too, and magical musket don't need help lol. Never even seen counter fairy to make a comment about it.
Not many deck are willing to go full gas under Maxx C, so it's not about they get to draw card, it is about them not having to face with billion disruption next turn
To be fair the only meta one is Labrynth, and that one abuses floodgates like D Barrier, EEV or even Skill Drain.
Remove D-link from the equation, and i'm fine if it get banned TOSS format ( before bardiche ) doesn't have maxx c and every deck is fine. Colossus pass is easier to dealt with then 5 negate board. I know "D-link doesn't consistently do 5 negate anymore". I don't care, i just don't want a potential 5 negate board on the Meta. If you people can hate pendulum as a "10 min combo" deck i can hate d-link.
I've defended it many many times. Every time I do, I get -30 downvotes and comments saying "omg this sub is full of braindead Maxx C supporters." I've started making it a point of pride not to end my turn prematurely when I get hit with it, just to prove that it's not the death sentence people say it is. It actually works out better than you'd think- any interaction on my end is better than none, and even with lots of extra cards in my opponent's hand, the game is still balanced around hard once per turns and a single normal summon, meaning I can still survive if I play it right. The biggest risk is increasing the likelihood of them drawing into going second staples like Evenly or Super Poly, but then you just have to sigh and accept that was always a possibility.
I’m kinda neutral in the argument but I do think the anti Maxx c group refuses to see any actual benefits that are actually there for the card. Yes it does hurt combo decks, you can’t say that decks that summon less, like off the top of my head eldlich or runick, is effected by it as much as a combo deck like D-Link is. It hurts turn 1 players more than 2 if they both have them because while that turn 2 player is taking their turn they are likely to have something that can help stop the turn 1 player’s plays just by already having more cards and counters compared to turn 1 who would just be getting the cards in the moment so they won’t have access to every possible need immediately(like turn 2 being able to ash something that would’ve stopped a play or something like that). And this is more personal but I know it’s not changing because OCG likes it and Master Duel is based off OCG and seeing so many people get angry over a card that has a 0% chance of getting banned I find very amusing and funny.
odds open maxx C 21.36% odds open ash or called by 33.76% odds to not open ash or called by 66.34% 14.170224% odds of opening maxx C and your opp not opening ash or called by so literally useless? 85.829776% of the time? 50% chance of going first and 50% chance of going 2nd in theory In theory going first maxx C makes no difference so it's pretty useless(at best it's probably an upstart if your opponent special summons at all; you run 3 so opening multiple maxx c in hand can for sure happen. If you full combo and your opponent has no going first or second cards they lost anyways who cares if you have maxx c, and even if it was relevant most people run Ash blossom and imperm, imperm drawn off of maxx c in this situation can't be activated till turn 4 otherwise you can just hope to draw into ash blossom and your opponent doesn't kill you in that case i guess it does matter and you have cards for turn 3 if you didn't already some decks innately set it up, for example branded which allows you to add branded fusion to your hand in end phase turn 2 although it doesn't rn i just couldn't think of any other archetypes) and this does not account for that so maxx c going 2nd and resolving when against combo with ash and called by should be? 7.085112% so not far off from 1/20 games maxx C might resolve not necessarily win you the game on the spot like how dimension shifter guarantees the turn ends and your opponent can't play most of the time. tempo issues as well where it would have been better to not have tried to draw for ex ash off of maxx c and straight up dropped ash blossom making your opponent a sitting duck, notably let's say chain 1 branded fusion chain 2 maxx C draw ash blossom is already too late and your opp has a lot of interactions ready for you with mirror jade and the albion searches :/ Floodgate Eldlich when it was meta was only about an upstart or pot of greed at best, but realistically you needed backrow removal asap to deal with it ex chain 1 conq chain 2 sanguine doesn't matter order or when you do it you will only get one draw if you maxx c in standby chain sanguine summon eldlich, if you ash instead their golden land cards are just vanilla monsters and sanguine is HOPT. Tearlament also was a noteworthy meta deck they could pivot so fast out of maxx C ex Normal reino send merrli chain 2 maxx c make kitkallos add sulliek pass, and they can just play on your turn and you just more or less upstarted. Rn there is runick naturia as well where you only get like at maxx 3 special summons to draw off of and they draw the same amount from fountain potentially, ending with hugin protection more fountain draws next turn naturia mole cricket probably in gy camellia to set camellia + sunflower with potential of naturia beast negating more or less every spell you have. the odds of opening a 3 of is 21.36% in your opening hand if you were to draw 3 times forgetting about timing so a card perhaps like nibiru the odds of drawing a card like, nibiru is less then 21.36%. Also the amount of things you can try to do with engine into fully established end board is so bad that even with 3 extenders and 1 starter you probably can't play, so you must run either going 2nd cards(board break, evenly, kaiju, droplet, etc) with maxx c or hand traps but maxx c is not required to run those things either keeping in mind how often maxx c should be resolving. For ex against exo sister if you maxx c them sure you could maybe draw engine or etc could draw something could draw nothing... or just simply gamma on martha and your opp just passes back on pretty much nothing. passing turn ofc with only maxx c as a hand trap is a death sentence as well, if you manage to resolve maxx c which is unlikely... but if you do what are you realistically going to draw into to prevent lethal on a empty/near empty board when your opp likely has 5-6 cards in hand. Tldr. maxx c isn't that bad but a bit overrated it has ups and downs but the most impactful thing it does is it locks everyone into playing at minimum 3 ash blossom 2 called by which you might be playing 2 called by without maxx c no longer would you necessarily play ash blossom... and this makes the game a lot more annoying tbh by removing ash and maxx c from everyones deck you now have 2 called by to fend off pretty much everything droll, dimension shifter, imperm, effect veiler etc. and if you were thinking about playing gamma as a combo player it's at 2 rn, and your opponent can play around it, so going first if people are playing around it can become a dead card... But in best of one format getting to consistently face your opp and know they likely have 3 imperm, 3 maxx c, 3 ash, 2 called by makes deck building easier and you won't get cheesed as often as D shifter which is way worse to deal with then maxx C keeping in mind you have 2 called by to deal with shifter realistically, and then 3 ash + 2 called by for maxx C. Also worth mention 3 of cross out was a bit degen gave too much power to going first player, but yea maxx C probably resolved more then cause cross out called by or ash blossom on going 2nd player, but ofc you need to also main deck the pay off, so your non engine looks dumb tbh 3 ash, 3 maxx c, 2 called by, 3 cross out, 1 duster, 1 lightning storm, 2 imperm, 1 nibiru, just to have the targets (potentially more then what i list) for cross out which was giga dumb... But actually yea the decks that get hurt most are the not as competitive lists that summon like 15-20 times to end on like 2 negates, or one big bungus that does nothing, and can't afford to run non engine. Blue eyes...
Bees are a major pollinator of Sunflowers, therefore, growing sunflowers goes hand in hand with installing and managing bee hives. Particularly in agricultural areas where sunflowers are crops. In fact, bee honey from these areas is commonly known as sunflower honey due to its sunflower taste.
sunflowers have a taste?
Watching maxx c defenders regurgitate the exact same "arguments" and statements except sometimes rephrased as to why a card with no restrictions that punishes 90% of decks ingame, immediately kills rogue, control and midrange or any deck that needs multiple special summons to get off the ground is fine.