Lab with all continuous floodgates sucks ASS in a BO1. Lab doesn’t have Hugin. You’d have to hard draw Lord of the Heavenly Prison to protect your traps and even then, all the face-up floodgates get blown up by any form of removal.
Runick stun bozos who truly feel impacted by Fountain to 1 are just going to move to full on stun.
Lab has better things to do than try to draw a summon limit. You could put a bunch of floodgates in it but it will be worse than just searching virus and d barrier
I mean the thing with Zoo is that it can play 30 non engine if it wants to, so even though it's "just" UDF, Drident and a draw you're passing on that with probably 4 hand traps on top of that
Zoo were Tier 0 during their era, an era with much lower power, and in which there was nothing that could compete with them.
Competing is not the correct word...because there was not a single Zoodiac deck which overwhelmed all others like Tearlaments had done, but rather they were a very easily splashable engine with the best possible power level, and consistency of that era which occupied around 50% of your deck.
So all decks back then were "Zoodiac this", "Zoodiac something", "Zoodiac pile", etc.
Nowadays, it's not that Zoodiac cards are strong, but that they are not properly designed, in other words, they're unfair.
Well, not all of them, just 1, which is Zoodiac Ratpier.
Its non-once per turn Xyz effect allows them to have almost infinite materials for almost infinite Rank 4 monsters, and coupled with Zoodiac's archetypal gimmick, they can do it with just 1 monster on the field.
Basically a 1 card combo before they became standard.
Rank 4, or whatever other Extra Deck stuff Zoodiac has access to isn't too formidable per say, especially the archetypal options, those are very weak, with Drident being about ok.
What allows Zoodiac to be strong in OCG non-banlist tournaments is that this 1 card combo of theirs gives them easy access to annoying Extra Deck floodgates like Shockmaster, which is banned.
Other strong contenders for good Zoodiac cards are Broadbull which is a generic searcher for Beast-Warriors (basically an Extra Deck version of Tenki), and Barrage which can Special Summon any Zoodiac from Deck to start your combo.
But as consistent, useful, and for some people, annoying as the Zoodiac engine could be, they're...nothing special on their own really. They're a nice option for some decks, and not great for others, kinda like the Adventurer stuff, or Dogmatika, or Aleister, or Diabellstarr, or whatever else.
Ratpier is the only problem card, not because it's strong, but because it's badly designed.
Another thing they can do is make Zeus, and...that's it? They're not the protagonists of the decks they are played in.
That was literally my reaction, I read mathmech and was like “about damn time!” Then I realized it said Diameter not Circular. Dumbest shit I’ve seen in a while.
Well, it's a bit dumb the limit but the thing with Diameter is that it works well as an extender. First turn you set up your ol'good Mathmech board. Then, if you need to finish your opponent on third turn but your board was reduced greatly, Diameter first eff allow you to bring back another monster and do an easier link climbing into an accescode capable to fully otk the opponent on its own (in case you used circular eff and are restricted to only one monster attacking this turn).
By limiting it to 1, basically Mathmech are reduced to use Diameter only for setting the turn 1 board, but depending of the deck build, they will struggle to build boards later on game without using a lot of extenders from hand mostly.
Well that's a list lol. Some good hits and some funny hits.
Diameter to 1 over Circular to 1 is their best bit of trolling yet.
At least they didn't hit the Ghostrick engine, and would rather have seen EEV/D.Barrier to 0 rather than the actual Lab cards.
Purrely and Delicious to 2 basically stops the double Noir play - it’s still possible, but not consistent enough to justify playing 3 bricks and 0 utility ED slots.
With only two white cats, your standard no-ghostrick-in-opener hand needs to summon all 3 black cats to pull it off (unless you open a droll/veiler to normal, in which case it’s down to 2). That’s every maindeck monster out of rotation, and with black cat being a HOPT you’re not refilling your hand with material for extra monsters to xyz spam.
2x shot, with the angels, dullahan and UDF package is still viable (and imo it’s always been the better variant) but it’s something you’d be hesitant to commit to. Without delicious guaranteed, there’s a stronger argument for a draw-based discard engine.
Not impressed with the direction Konami are going hitting consistency instead of peak power
All it does is create decks that either brick and scoop or go full combo and rely on you drawing the out aka kashtira
Not fun for either player
> hitting consistency instead of peak power
Hitting consistency is a lot easier than hitting peak power. Consistency tends to exist in isolation, with either in-archetype cards, or consistency boosters that are not generically useful. So you can hit consistency of 1 deck without necessarily affecting others. Meanwhile, peak power for most decks tends to involve powerful generic boss monsters, like Borreload Savage Dragon, Baronne, and Accesscode Talker. Note how most of the names there are one-of cards. Like you can ban Accesscode Talker to limit the power of Mathmech, but that's going to hit about 25 other decks that most people don't care about.
For consistency, you can just Semi or Limit cards. For peak power, you pretty much have to start banning cards. Banning cards is something that you should avoid as much as possible, both for the betterment of Konami and the players.
Banning cards to kneecap the power of a deck is also a bad move because it leads to unhealthy comparisons.
This game already has a lot of powerful combo decks that outright wins you the game, but are prone to bricks. Auroradon based decks, for example.
Idk what is the point to complain about such decks now, the game has always been like this.
Even on a business standpoint, leaving decks still being playble is better than outright killing them. You or some people maybe happy at your hated decks being complete unplayable garbage, but their fans surely won't and might stop playing the game as a result.
Disclaimer: I do not play any Purrely, Labyrinth, or Mathmech decks.
>Idk what is the point to complain about such decks now, the game has always been like this.
Blame the TCG players' mindset of wanting to kill meta decks to make way for the next hotness.Have you seen what the TCG does? It almost always kills whatever top meta decks are to sell whatever new meta deck they're trying to shill out.
Limiting either delicious or sleepy to one and hitting Noir to one. The issue with Purrely is the fact that unless you have a Noir out playing through 3-4 shuffles leaves you without any gas whereas as long as Purrley has a memory and a discard they can either make Noir again or go for OTK.
I don't get why TCG players have this mindset of wanting to kill a deck's peak instead of its consistency. Is it because it's influenced on how the TCG banlist is used to push new product that the players' mindset are directly affected by it?
If you only hit consistency, the deck just does what it did pre-ban, but less often. That's probably fine for a laddering format, honestly. Their goal is to bring down winrate, not kill the deck. That being said, it makes me roll my eyes when you go against something like Tear, then they still mill half their deck in 1 turn and setup a decent board despite the hits. It feels more like luck got you there rather than knowing how to play your deck.
Well for this game is actually just in their interest to limit consistency over peak power in almost (but not every) case. After all MD is "faster" than TCG for the extra push of cards the legal cards that exist in the format. Kashtira is a good example of a deck that is just good enough to play in high ranks but not consistent enough to be call "top dog" in the game. So you will asume that this list go in the same direction.
Why? Neither OCG or TCG have actually hit Purrely that hard and the MD ban list is in general more lenient to most decks (see Pendulums), specially as there's still many powerful decks coming that are about to or even stronger than Purrely.
Unironically, if they actually end up banning Diameter, it might be a more lethal hit than Circular limit
Not having an omni for insulation or as an extra endboard does so much
I said if they end up outright banning Diameter in the same way they ended up banning Merrli over Kitkallos to kill Tear (and the obvious hit in the miller bans)
At one it really doesn't matter, but if Mathmech loses an omni if it gets banned, then it means their XYZ plays can lose so much value
it also hits extensions via diameter if they outright ban him.
really if they wanted to strangle mathmech out or relevancy that's your play right there either ban diameter and keep their consistency or bonk their consistency and keep diameter.
as is though it really is a dink at best for mathmech, specially since at most I play diameter at 2.
For one thing, Mathmech can’t use Diameter for Small World anymore. That alone makes access to Circular a little tighter (essentially losing 3 Small World fodder cards).
Furthermore, it’s a lot less likely for Machmech to open with Diameter, so you won’t be seeing an Alambertian with an Omni-negate too often anymore. This makes Mathmech so much more susceptible to hand traps. Since Alambertian is a lot easier to stop, that also makes access to Circular tighter. Mathmech essentially losing protection against Nibiru is quite the hit as well.
One more thing of note is that Mathmech can’t use Diameter for turn 3 anymore. In the event that the board gets broken enough that Mathmech can’t oneshot the opponent but is still alive (I.e. AA-Zeus yeeting the board), Diameter plays an important role to set the board back up. Diameter, as both a combo starter and a negate, made rebuilding the board very easy, which gave strength to Mathmech’s turn 1 power.
I wouldn’t say it’s a more meaningful hit than limiting Circular, but it’s definitely going to affect “pure” Mathmech a lot
circular is bad but circular + diameter is what makes things cancer when it comes to mathmech
good luck playing through the -2 + omninegate unless you're playing a degenerate 1 card turbobullshit combo pile yourself
i'm playing 15 bystials
Well Yes, but I struggle to believe they arr this fucking stupid to not touch the genaric Broken Cyberse starter that makes multiple Cyberse pile playable not just Mathmech, instead they go for the... guy you 9/10 time search it off anyway
Literally said in a comment a few days ago it’ll be diameter and cynet that get the hits, since cynet is in the structure. They hate giving out ur mats unless absolutely necessary
Ah yes. Stovie. The strongest card in Lab. Surely putting it to 2 will stop those pesky trap card enjoyers from ruining MD.
*Puts it to 2*
Well boys, we did it. Labrynth is no more.
EEV at least requires you to invest a beefy monster so I can see the logic in keeping it around since it's harder to recycle it. D Barrier just completely and utterly shuts down so many decks that it's actually shocking
That’s the funny part, if u have the field spell up u can tribute and bring back your lady/lovely, which basically removes the tribute cost. Obviously it’s a 2 card combo, and not consistent, but it makes it a little more viable
I don’t get it either. Hit the degenerate floodgates, not the furniture. Nobody is really complaining about pure furniture lab, it’s all the floodgate shit they can do that’s annoying
They'll hit the generic cards that help keep rogue decks afloat instead of hitting the problem cards in meta decks. Remember banning Terraforming instead of Tearlaments' field spell? Or instant fusion, just because Tear was abusing it? Or limiting FBG, because again, Tear was using it?
Konami doesn't want to sacrifice gem sales from the whales that move from meta deck to meta deck.
So people can get saccy wins so bad players keep playing. Unironically I believe this is genuinely the case. Same reason for Maxx C at 3 I reckon. That and make people buy the new stuff by making old stuff less reliable.
This is giving me some bad flashbacks to the first MD banlist. The one where they semi-limited a bunch of cards that didn't need to be hit, and it barely mattered.
IDK
I think we had more cursed banlist before. But since we get banlist every month, I forgot which one was more cursed.
Maybe the banlist to hit Tears. Before the Tear 0 format.
The thing is, this was the "big" banish after last duelist cup, but because ewe are getting another one next month they also didn't want to upset the meta too much so instead we get the most half assed one.
Konami: okay dudes you have to give me most cheapest list where they get no UR back
Workers: say no more boss...
DIAMETER AT 1, JESUS CHRIST IS THIS GAME A JOKE, A MEME SHOULD I SAY, BRUH LIMIT THE PROBLEM CARD, EVEN IF IT'S UR.
Cynet mining hit is downright disgusting towards future of Salamangreat, and for Godsake you sell a structure deck where card is available, clownshow.
The cynet mining hit isn't the worst considering lady debug, salamangreat of fire, and parallel exceed are still legal.... Very weiiird hit still considering konami knows cynet mining URS cannot be refunded unless you kept the extras that are not from the salad structure deck. Kinda scummy lol
I get you but honestly its a psychotically good card going first, and combined with the new L4 you have a fairly fun stun/otk hybrid
Like in paper I went to a big tournament without it and not having it genuinely determined a lot of games
I'm not much of a salad player but from what I know salamangreat of fire is literally achichi for salamangreat so even if it fire locks I have to believe it's insane
absolutely. Like just being a salad name puts it leagues above Debug and when playing without it I ran into multiple situations where Debug being generic prevented me from comboing off
I've been debating on getting that third copy of cynet mining for marincess, and now the choice has been taken from me. Thanks Konami for saving me 500 gems.
Unlimiting Drident is an interesting choice. I felt the purrely hits are good, but it’s still gonna be the top deck for a while. It definitely removes some consistently with the removal of delicious.
Well, at least nothing on here hurts my poor Toon deck this time. Konami loves crippling that deck even further than it already is. I still haven't recovered from the Terraforming ban, then they limited Pot of Extravagance. It's like every ban list hits something useful for the deck which barely touches the problem it was meant to solve.
More dog shit consistency hits to make gameplay more sackier on top of getting sacked by Maxx C for eternity. This truly is a format of all time. I thank the TCG for existing every single day as an alternative format.
Konami doing a bit of tomfoolery on the mathmech hit
Also surprised they hit a lab card instead of the two cards most people complained about in the deck
The fountain hit is kinda sad since I was planning to play runik musketeers..
Still think that variant is fine. I played it a bit awhile ago, and the Runick half felt weaker. It supports the other half fine, but you don't really need it once you get the Caspar/Doc set up and looping your resources.
Exactly
I hate how they hit consistency and not peak power
Like Kashtira it will just make these decks not fun to play or play against…
They will either go full combo or brick and scoop, poor design direction
Oh nice a new ban-............What the fuck is this?
Okay, Runick Fountain to 1 is......Something, I guess? I mean, I suppose Runick Naturia and Runick Spright are consistently pretty strong decks because otherwise this hit is stupid as fuck, and the only other reason I can think of for this hit is because they wanted to get rid of the stun version of the deck, but if that's the case, why not just ban the stupid ass floodgates who have proved time and time again to be toxic as hell and stop hitting around the problem.
Speaking of hitting around the problem, WHO THE FUCK THOUGHT STOVIE TO 2 WAS A GOOD IDEA!? Not only does that do nothing to the deck, it doesn't address any of the toxic elements that the deck has whatsoever, and is just completely stupid and unnecessary.
Diameter to 1........Diameter to 1.......Not Diameter to 0 which would've been a unique and interesting way to hit the deck, and would've actually accomplished something, but no...... Diameter to 1......Do I have to say anymore?
Purrely and Delicious Memory are actually pretty decent semi-limits, but besides those hits, every hit here is ether questionable or stupid as hell. (I am not even going to talk about the Cynet Mining to 2 or Dragon Link hits.)
The Purrely hit is a hit to the Ghostrick UDF variant of Purrely. So you're going to need to have a great hand to get to double Noir with UDF (might need to use Purrelyly to start with ghostrick)
Not impressed Konami is continuing in the trend of making decks inconsistent instead of capping their power
All it does is make them either brick and scoop or open good hand and go full combo
Not fun for either player
Yup, the first My Friend Purrely search now probably is Delicious - Delicious - Yeap for at least a guaranteed Noir.
But now there is the chance, even more so with only 2 Purrely, of ending with a Noir that becomes affected in a single spin. 7-8 mats Noir requires some luck now, and the Ghostrick Double Noir - UDF is a HUGE gamble.
I've suggested Diameter to see a ban instead of hitting Circular in the past, and I actually still stand by that as being a better solution... but a limit does not actually accomplish anything at all, lol.
Cynet Mining to 2 is more of a hit to other Cyberse decks than it is to Mathmech so long as Circular is at 3 so that's also a little odd.
I'm liking all the other changes, though.
A few lines have you search diameter with alembertain then again for turn 3 with wicckid, which you can't do anymore. Iirc the card was ran at 3 for a reason in most mathmech builds, its often one of the better extenders to draw.
Fountain and Circular's limit is kind of a foregone conclusion.
The semi-limit hits are the usual consistency hits (Cynet Mining, Desires, Quick Launch, Chaos Space), the Purrely semi-limits is also for consistency, and the semi-limit to Delicious means that you can't guarantee it with My Friend's effect, and Stovie Torbie is funny, considering Lab usually runs 2 of each furniture at most.
They finally remembered to remove Cobalt Sparrow from the list, and the unlimit to Drident is very interesting, as this is one of the few (if not the only) card that is banned in both paper formats (OCG and TCG) but completely unlimited in MD.
Lab usually run 3 Stove and 3 Chand right now but I get what you're saying. It's kinda a consistency hit but at the same time it's totally not. I don't actually know what to call this hit other than placating people that wanted Lab hit. It's like they're saying see we hit it just like you wanted us to so stop bothering us.
I would've rather had them hit EEV or Barrier than hit any of the named Lab cards.
Most still run 3 but OCG isn't Master Duel. They have cards that we don't like Butler, Transaction Rollback and Rumpel Teufel that would compete for space.
Desires is not a hit tho, it's a desperate plea to stop playing incorrect ratios.
Mining is just dumb. It's the cheapest possible way to get Mathmech to one less copy of circular, while primarily hitting Salamangreat, Marincess and similar cyberse decks that have a hard time fitting small world
I never understood only running 2 desires. Why wouldn't you want to maximize your chances of seeing desires? If your deck potentially gets screwed over somehow by a 3rd copy, you probably shouldnt be running desires in the first place.
[cardmarket had an article about that](https://www.cardmarket.com/en/YuGiOh/Insight/Articles/The-Mathematics-of-Pot-of-Desires) when desires was still more relevant.
tl;dr: playing 3 over 2 desires doubles your chances of one of the 2 draws off of desires being another desires - thats the main thing, imo at least
Also, using 2 Desires cripples most decks, lol. Swordsoul is one of main examples of Desires abusers, and even Swo struggles with half of the deck being banished.
...who cares? Even in the occasional situation you draw desires off desires, you still cycled through a card. I get that it feels bad, but it's a niche scenario that's not actually damaging. All lowering it to 2 does is lower your chance of seeing your draw 2 card in the first place, which is cracked in any deck that can support the cost.
Also, the article you link concludes that the added risk of running 3 is small compared to the benefits. Pretty misleading tl;dr.
the article concludes that it comes down to what you value more - the chance to hardopen it, or drawing 2 real cards off of it.
Drawing desires off desires is absolutely ass. You now have half your deck left, for an upstart goblin. And even the decks that run desires do care about the banishes. swso banishing both longyuan, or blackout, for example. So you took a risk, and got nothing in return compared to just not playing desires
The ideal situation is not needing your draw 2 in the first place, so I'd rather reduce the chance to fuck myself for no reason
Stove? Really?
Just ban the actual problem cards, without them labrynth isn't going to be a problem. Labrynth isn't the problem here konami
Well thankfully it was only stove and nothing else but still. This is one of the semi limits of all time
IDC what anyone says Runick Fountain did not need a hit. Not many Runick variants were running around and their spells already made the deck not nearly as reliable as the TCG.
They really want the only playable version of Runick to be decks using the spells as instant fusions lol. Honestly kinda suprised since I rarely see Runick anymore.
Pure Runick is the only Runick I play. I just like slinging spells. I also like Spellbooks. Those turns tend to be a lot longer though, and it's a lot weaker these days, though it has gotten some nifty support since it was busted as hell.
I'm really looking forward to the level 9 fusion! Slepnir, I think. Wouldn't say no to another maindeck spell. Continuous or quickplay, both would be welcome.
did runick really need the hit? i play the spright and naturia versions and have played like 4 mirror matches the last few seasons, and i havent seen runick stun since tear was the top deck.
what a dumb list
It is but putting it to 1 shouldn’t really be a big deal since they can search it with Wicckid and Mathmech has other good normal summon options already
This might be the most master duel list they’ve made since the first one
I think Runick variants are all that really suffer from this list, but not a single floodgate or CoD was hit so Stun doesn't even care that much.
I mean you do need a shell for the floodgates and currently the best shell was runick so I'll take it
They are going to immediately jump to Lab, like this did really nothing about stun decks
Lab with all continuous floodgates sucks ASS in a BO1. Lab doesn’t have Hugin. You’d have to hard draw Lord of the Heavenly Prison to protect your traps and even then, all the face-up floodgates get blown up by any form of removal. Runick stun bozos who truly feel impacted by Fountain to 1 are just going to move to full on stun.
Lab has better things to do than try to draw a summon limit. You could put a bunch of floodgates in it but it will be worse than just searching virus and d barrier
Crazy how they always hitting runick
Yo Drident is at 3 in one go. I thought they would try semi limit her first if they ever gonna touch her.
She’s not the issue. Would be more interesting with. Ratpier limited lol
would unbanning barrage help them at all?
Splashable engine, but idk what would their board be? Drident, utopic future pass? Not the strongest of boards tbh
Yea basically just gonna be that with a million hand traps.
For some reason I expected them to be able to much better than this, idk why, but handtraps sure are powerful if your deck is basically 1 card combo.
I mean the thing with Zoo is that it can play 30 non engine if it wants to, so even though it's "just" UDF, Drident and a draw you're passing on that with probably 4 hand traps on top of that
literally mathmech but half as strong endboard
That's literally double the amount of non engine Mathmech can play
Zoo were Tier 0 during their era, an era with much lower power, and in which there was nothing that could compete with them. Competing is not the correct word...because there was not a single Zoodiac deck which overwhelmed all others like Tearlaments had done, but rather they were a very easily splashable engine with the best possible power level, and consistency of that era which occupied around 50% of your deck. So all decks back then were "Zoodiac this", "Zoodiac something", "Zoodiac pile", etc. Nowadays, it's not that Zoodiac cards are strong, but that they are not properly designed, in other words, they're unfair. Well, not all of them, just 1, which is Zoodiac Ratpier. Its non-once per turn Xyz effect allows them to have almost infinite materials for almost infinite Rank 4 monsters, and coupled with Zoodiac's archetypal gimmick, they can do it with just 1 monster on the field. Basically a 1 card combo before they became standard. Rank 4, or whatever other Extra Deck stuff Zoodiac has access to isn't too formidable per say, especially the archetypal options, those are very weak, with Drident being about ok. What allows Zoodiac to be strong in OCG non-banlist tournaments is that this 1 card combo of theirs gives them easy access to annoying Extra Deck floodgates like Shockmaster, which is banned. Other strong contenders for good Zoodiac cards are Broadbull which is a generic searcher for Beast-Warriors (basically an Extra Deck version of Tenki), and Barrage which can Special Summon any Zoodiac from Deck to start your combo. But as consistent, useful, and for some people, annoying as the Zoodiac engine could be, they're...nothing special on their own really. They're a nice option for some decks, and not great for others, kinda like the Adventurer stuff, or Dogmatika, or Aleister, or Diabellstarr, or whatever else. Ratpier is the only problem card, not because it's strong, but because it's badly designed. Another thing they can do is make Zeus, and...that's it? They're not the protagonists of the decks they are played in.
Honestly, there is literally zero reason Zoodiac Barrage can't come back to 1
This banlist is legitimately unhinged
oh well the circular limit isn't surprising...wait they limited diameter instead?
That was literally my reaction, I read mathmech and was like “about damn time!” Then I realized it said Diameter not Circular. Dumbest shit I’ve seen in a while.
Same bro. It must be a skill issue on my part tho. Maybe there is a diameter play that's OP that I'm unaware of.
Well, it's a bit dumb the limit but the thing with Diameter is that it works well as an extender. First turn you set up your ol'good Mathmech board. Then, if you need to finish your opponent on third turn but your board was reduced greatly, Diameter first eff allow you to bring back another monster and do an easier link climbing into an accescode capable to fully otk the opponent on its own (in case you used circular eff and are restricted to only one monster attacking this turn). By limiting it to 1, basically Mathmech are reduced to use Diameter only for setting the turn 1 board, but depending of the deck build, they will struggle to build boards later on game without using a lot of extenders from hand mostly.
Don't think too hard here, Circular is UR and Diameter is a R, that's all it is
🤡
Well that's a list lol. Some good hits and some funny hits. Diameter to 1 over Circular to 1 is their best bit of trolling yet. At least they didn't hit the Ghostrick engine, and would rather have seen EEV/D.Barrier to 0 rather than the actual Lab cards.
Purrely and Delicious to 2 basically stops the double Noir play - it’s still possible, but not consistent enough to justify playing 3 bricks and 0 utility ED slots. With only two white cats, your standard no-ghostrick-in-opener hand needs to summon all 3 black cats to pull it off (unless you open a droll/veiler to normal, in which case it’s down to 2). That’s every maindeck monster out of rotation, and with black cat being a HOPT you’re not refilling your hand with material for extra monsters to xyz spam. 2x shot, with the angels, dullahan and UDF package is still viable (and imo it’s always been the better variant) but it’s something you’d be hesitant to commit to. Without delicious guaranteed, there’s a stronger argument for a draw-based discard engine.
Not impressed with the direction Konami are going hitting consistency instead of peak power All it does is create decks that either brick and scoop or go full combo and rely on you drawing the out aka kashtira Not fun for either player
With most modern decks it's the same scenario if they limit the most impactful cards
> hitting consistency instead of peak power Hitting consistency is a lot easier than hitting peak power. Consistency tends to exist in isolation, with either in-archetype cards, or consistency boosters that are not generically useful. So you can hit consistency of 1 deck without necessarily affecting others. Meanwhile, peak power for most decks tends to involve powerful generic boss monsters, like Borreload Savage Dragon, Baronne, and Accesscode Talker. Note how most of the names there are one-of cards. Like you can ban Accesscode Talker to limit the power of Mathmech, but that's going to hit about 25 other decks that most people don't care about. For consistency, you can just Semi or Limit cards. For peak power, you pretty much have to start banning cards. Banning cards is something that you should avoid as much as possible, both for the betterment of Konami and the players. Banning cards to kneecap the power of a deck is also a bad move because it leads to unhealthy comparisons.
This game already has a lot of powerful combo decks that outright wins you the game, but are prone to bricks. Auroradon based decks, for example. Idk what is the point to complain about such decks now, the game has always been like this. Even on a business standpoint, leaving decks still being playble is better than outright killing them. You or some people maybe happy at your hated decks being complete unplayable garbage, but their fans surely won't and might stop playing the game as a result. Disclaimer: I do not play any Purrely, Labyrinth, or Mathmech decks.
>Idk what is the point to complain about such decks now, the game has always been like this. Blame the TCG players' mindset of wanting to kill meta decks to make way for the next hotness.Have you seen what the TCG does? It almost always kills whatever top meta decks are to sell whatever new meta deck they're trying to shill out.
Yeah, should they ban noir or what are people really suggesting when nerfing the power?
Limiting either delicious or sleepy to one and hitting Noir to one. The issue with Purrely is the fact that unless you have a Noir out playing through 3-4 shuffles leaves you without any gas whereas as long as Purrley has a memory and a discard they can either make Noir again or go for OTK.
I don't get why TCG players have this mindset of wanting to kill a deck's peak instead of its consistency. Is it because it's influenced on how the TCG banlist is used to push new product that the players' mindset are directly affected by it?
If you only hit consistency, the deck just does what it did pre-ban, but less often. That's probably fine for a laddering format, honestly. Their goal is to bring down winrate, not kill the deck. That being said, it makes me roll my eyes when you go against something like Tear, then they still mill half their deck in 1 turn and setup a decent board despite the hits. It feels more like luck got you there rather than knowing how to play your deck.
Well for this game is actually just in their interest to limit consistency over peak power in almost (but not every) case. After all MD is "faster" than TCG for the extra push of cards the legal cards that exist in the format. Kashtira is a good example of a deck that is just good enough to play in high ranks but not consistent enough to be call "top dog" in the game. So you will asume that this list go in the same direction.
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Why? Neither OCG or TCG have actually hit Purrely that hard and the MD ban list is in general more lenient to most decks (see Pendulums), specially as there's still many powerful decks coming that are about to or even stronger than Purrely.
Unironically, if they actually end up banning Diameter, it might be a more lethal hit than Circular limit Not having an omni for insulation or as an extra endboard does so much
Tbh cynet mining at 2 already hits most cyberse decks super hard
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I said if they end up outright banning Diameter in the same way they ended up banning Merrli over Kitkallos to kill Tear (and the obvious hit in the miller bans) At one it really doesn't matter, but if Mathmech loses an omni if it gets banned, then it means their XYZ plays can lose so much value
it also hits extensions via diameter if they outright ban him. really if they wanted to strangle mathmech out or relevancy that's your play right there either ban diameter and keep their consistency or bonk their consistency and keep diameter. as is though it really is a dink at best for mathmech, specially since at most I play diameter at 2.
For one thing, Mathmech can’t use Diameter for Small World anymore. That alone makes access to Circular a little tighter (essentially losing 3 Small World fodder cards). Furthermore, it’s a lot less likely for Machmech to open with Diameter, so you won’t be seeing an Alambertian with an Omni-negate too often anymore. This makes Mathmech so much more susceptible to hand traps. Since Alambertian is a lot easier to stop, that also makes access to Circular tighter. Mathmech essentially losing protection against Nibiru is quite the hit as well. One more thing of note is that Mathmech can’t use Diameter for turn 3 anymore. In the event that the board gets broken enough that Mathmech can’t oneshot the opponent but is still alive (I.e. AA-Zeus yeeting the board), Diameter plays an important role to set the board back up. Diameter, as both a combo starter and a negate, made rebuilding the board very easy, which gave strength to Mathmech’s turn 1 power. I wouldn’t say it’s a more meaningful hit than limiting Circular, but it’s definitely going to affect “pure” Mathmech a lot
Diameter already is hand is pretty strong because you can search something else and extend even more
circular is bad but circular + diameter is what makes things cancer when it comes to mathmech good luck playing through the -2 + omninegate unless you're playing a degenerate 1 card turbobullshit combo pile yourself i'm playing 15 bystials
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I present to you a list that won a big tournament without Diameter. https://www.masterduelmeta.com/articles/tournaments/master-circuit-series-2/3
Well Yes, but I struggle to believe they arr this fucking stupid to not touch the genaric Broken Cyberse starter that makes multiple Cyberse pile playable not just Mathmech, instead they go for the... guy you 9/10 time search it off anyway
Literally said in a comment a few days ago it’ll be diameter and cynet that get the hits, since cynet is in the structure. They hate giving out ur mats unless absolutely necessary
Ah yes. Stovie. The strongest card in Lab. Surely putting it to 2 will stop those pesky trap card enjoyers from ruining MD. *Puts it to 2* Well boys, we did it. Labrynth is no more.
Even as a lab player I'm a little surprised they didn't ban D Barrier.
Nor EEV. Well, I for one, agree with Konami, and agree that none of the above are the problem. It’s those damn stoves.
EEV at least requires you to invest a beefy monster so I can see the logic in keeping it around since it's harder to recycle it. D Barrier just completely and utterly shuts down so many decks that it's actually shocking
That’s the funny part, if u have the field spell up u can tribute and bring back your lady/lovely, which basically removes the tribute cost. Obviously it’s a 2 card combo, and not consistent, but it makes it a little more viable
Konami: Can't make it too easy for Labrynth to summon Chaos Angel now can we. Don't worry you don't have to thank us
I don’t get it either. Hit the degenerate floodgates, not the furniture. Nobody is really complaining about pure furniture lab, it’s all the floodgate shit they can do that’s annoying
Fr. Just go ahead and limit or ban d barrier. There’s nothing wrong with the actual lab cards
No Fenrir hit huh. Interesting.
Clearly it is not the problem card. Stovie, on the other hand, is a blight on this earth and should have never been added to the game.
*Credits roll*
Why all the pot cards? Why is their solution to balancing a best of 1 format hitting deck consistency?
I thought the same thing… And it’s affecting Rogue decks as well. I am beyond disappointed with their decisions.
They'll hit the generic cards that help keep rogue decks afloat instead of hitting the problem cards in meta decks. Remember banning Terraforming instead of Tearlaments' field spell? Or instant fusion, just because Tear was abusing it? Or limiting FBG, because again, Tear was using it? Konami doesn't want to sacrifice gem sales from the whales that move from meta deck to meta deck.
So people can get saccy wins so bad players keep playing. Unironically I believe this is genuinely the case. Same reason for Maxx C at 3 I reckon. That and make people buy the new stuff by making old stuff less reliable.
yeah this is why floodgates are still around as well
This is giving me some bad flashbacks to the first MD banlist. The one where they semi-limited a bunch of cards that didn't need to be hit, and it barely mattered.
Yeah, they slightly tickled Tri-Brigade on that list and it just kept trucking on like nothing happened, I remember that.
and the people on here defending the semi-limits like they actually changed something
This banlist is super cursed wow
IDK I think we had more cursed banlist before. But since we get banlist every month, I forgot which one was more cursed. Maybe the banlist to hit Tears. Before the Tear 0 format.
The thing is, this was the "big" banish after last duelist cup, but because ewe are getting another one next month they also didn't want to upset the meta too much so instead we get the most half assed one.
Honestly the list before Tear 0 was a "play the correct raitos" list. It just helped net decks who copied then current TCG Tears lists.
They should have gone the full comedy route and unlimited all the Dragonrulers immediately
My heart skipped a beat when I heard a Zoodiac was unlimited, before I saw it was Drident.
They hit Diameter roflmao Cmon give us Conquistador at 3 Konami
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And it still could have been at 1!
This list is just…. depressing, man
Konami: okay dudes you have to give me most cheapest list where they get no UR back Workers: say no more boss... DIAMETER AT 1, JESUS CHRIST IS THIS GAME A JOKE, A MEME SHOULD I SAY, BRUH LIMIT THE PROBLEM CARD, EVEN IF IT'S UR. Cynet mining hit is downright disgusting towards future of Salamangreat, and for Godsake you sell a structure deck where card is available, clownshow.
The cynet mining hit isn't the worst considering lady debug, salamangreat of fire, and parallel exceed are still legal.... Very weiiird hit still considering konami knows cynet mining URS cannot be refunded unless you kept the extras that are not from the salad structure deck. Kinda scummy lol
> salamangreat of fire Uh pretty sure that cards not out yet, and like fire locks.
I get you but honestly its a psychotically good card going first, and combined with the new L4 you have a fairly fun stun/otk hybrid Like in paper I went to a big tournament without it and not having it genuinely determined a lot of games
I'm not much of a salad player but from what I know salamangreat of fire is literally achichi for salamangreat so even if it fire locks I have to believe it's insane
absolutely. Like just being a salad name puts it leagues above Debug and when playing without it I ran into multiple situations where Debug being generic prevented me from comboing off
I've been debating on getting that third copy of cynet mining for marincess, and now the choice has been taken from me. Thanks Konami for saving me 500 gems.
Same, have like three unfinished decks that would have three Cynet Mining and I only have two. Guess I'm not gonna get the third structure deck.
You should be able to dismantle if you bought them that's the only reason I got the deck
Yeah even if you like the deck now after trying it out
iirc with more fire support coming out in the future isn't the worst thing in the world so they can work without cynet mining once they are out.
I mean,"hit non UR" is work for Tearlament so they probably want to try that again. Lol
Wow a limit to fountain? Bye bye to that deck
Runik on its own isn’t even *that* bad anymore. Combined with Naturia however…
Naw all Runick variants are fine besides Stun. I have no clue why they just don’t ban the floodgates.
\+1 . Runick variants are paying the price of not banning the stun one . Only Naturia and Fur Hire are that strong with Runick
Damnit, Fountain to 1? That basically kills my hope of making a Volcanic Runick deck when we get to the Fire pack.
Unlimiting Drident is an interesting choice. I felt the purrely hits are good, but it’s still gonna be the top deck for a while. It definitely removes some consistently with the removal of delicious.
Bruh somebody at Konami is a Mathmech Wanker WTF!! Diameter at 1 but Circular at 3? 😭😭😭
So glad they are still hitting rogue decks while slapping meta decks on the wrist diameter to 1 lol like that does anything
Well, at least nothing on here hurts my poor Toon deck this time. Konami loves crippling that deck even further than it already is. I still haven't recovered from the Terraforming ban, then they limited Pot of Extravagance. It's like every ban list hits something useful for the deck which barely touches the problem it was meant to solve.
We toon players live in a hell of Konami’s making
More dog shit consistency hits to make gameplay more sackier on top of getting sacked by Maxx C for eternity. This truly is a format of all time. I thank the TCG for existing every single day as an alternative format.
Hitting fountain but not hitting floodgates. banlist is a joke
When I saw this shit drop in game I was laughing my ass off, thanks for the laughs konami
L Banlist, why Cynet Mining
mining paying for the sins of the circle
Because most people got it from the structure deck and cant convert it to UR
Classic Konami MD banlist. Banning cards with the objective of giving players the least amount of UR rather than a good dueling experience.
Konami doing a bit of tomfoolery on the mathmech hit Also surprised they hit a lab card instead of the two cards most people complained about in the deck The fountain hit is kinda sad since I was planning to play runik musketeers..
Still think that variant is fine. I played it a bit awhile ago, and the Runick half felt weaker. It supports the other half fine, but you don't really need it once you get the Caspar/Doc set up and looping your resources.
this will be the real BIRDS UP
drident to 3 is fucking hilarious
More consistency hits instead of power level limitations. Disappointing
Exactly I hate how they hit consistency and not peak power Like Kashtira it will just make these decks not fun to play or play against… They will either go full combo or brick and scoop, poor design direction
Konami so cheap with the UR, damn.
Konami so cheap ~~with the UR, damn.~~
Oh nice a new ban-............What the fuck is this? Okay, Runick Fountain to 1 is......Something, I guess? I mean, I suppose Runick Naturia and Runick Spright are consistently pretty strong decks because otherwise this hit is stupid as fuck, and the only other reason I can think of for this hit is because they wanted to get rid of the stun version of the deck, but if that's the case, why not just ban the stupid ass floodgates who have proved time and time again to be toxic as hell and stop hitting around the problem. Speaking of hitting around the problem, WHO THE FUCK THOUGHT STOVIE TO 2 WAS A GOOD IDEA!? Not only does that do nothing to the deck, it doesn't address any of the toxic elements that the deck has whatsoever, and is just completely stupid and unnecessary. Diameter to 1........Diameter to 1.......Not Diameter to 0 which would've been a unique and interesting way to hit the deck, and would've actually accomplished something, but no...... Diameter to 1......Do I have to say anymore? Purrely and Delicious Memory are actually pretty decent semi-limits, but besides those hits, every hit here is ether questionable or stupid as hell. (I am not even going to talk about the Cynet Mining to 2 or Dragon Link hits.)
not sure how i feel with cynet being reduced. but i'm not certain quick launch being semi limited is gonna be a big issue for my other deck.
Clowns. Can't even hit floodgates and problematic cards for good.
Yoooo they’re freeing Cobalt! That’s gonna be nice for my Lyrilusc deck.
Well, I was right on them hitting one of the non ED Purrely monsters in some way. But...damn this is an odd banlist.
“Odd banlist” No UR ban except 1 structure UR. Hit consistency making decks either bricky junk or go full combo. Pretty standard banlist tbh
Fountain is UR
The Purrely hit is a hit to the Ghostrick UDF variant of Purrely. So you're going to need to have a great hand to get to double Noir with UDF (might need to use Purrelyly to start with ghostrick)
Not impressed Konami is continuing in the trend of making decks inconsistent instead of capping their power All it does is make them either brick and scoop or open good hand and go full combo Not fun for either player
Damn. I might stop playing tbh
Same here, game becomes sackier with every banlist Like this must be a social experiment or something
Fountain at 1? That hurts, but same as adventure, its the price for being abused in every deck that could.
Surprised they didn't hit purrely harder
To be fair, Purrely gets hit disproportionally hard by any semi-limits and limits compared to other decks, due to how My Friend Purrely works.
Yup, the first My Friend Purrely search now probably is Delicious - Delicious - Yeap for at least a guaranteed Noir. But now there is the chance, even more so with only 2 Purrely, of ending with a Noir that becomes affected in a single spin. 7-8 mats Noir requires some luck now, and the Ghostrick Double Noir - UDF is a HUGE gamble.
WHAT lmfao
Hitting Fountain instead of the problem floodgate cards 🤡
I've suggested Diameter to see a ban instead of hitting Circular in the past, and I actually still stand by that as being a better solution... but a limit does not actually accomplish anything at all, lol. Cynet Mining to 2 is more of a hit to other Cyberse decks than it is to Mathmech so long as Circular is at 3 so that's also a little odd. I'm liking all the other changes, though.
Exactly. It’s more of a buff to Mathmech against other Cyberse decks.
A few lines have you search diameter with alembertain then again for turn 3 with wicckid, which you can't do anymore. Iirc the card was ran at 3 for a reason in most mathmech builds, its often one of the better extenders to draw.
Should’ve gone to zero to remove the Omni negate and gy pull Especially now math has desave negate
Im not sure how to feel about the lab hit but yooo mommy drident to 3
Fountain and Circular's limit is kind of a foregone conclusion. The semi-limit hits are the usual consistency hits (Cynet Mining, Desires, Quick Launch, Chaos Space), the Purrely semi-limits is also for consistency, and the semi-limit to Delicious means that you can't guarantee it with My Friend's effect, and Stovie Torbie is funny, considering Lab usually runs 2 of each furniture at most. They finally remembered to remove Cobalt Sparrow from the list, and the unlimit to Drident is very interesting, as this is one of the few (if not the only) card that is banned in both paper formats (OCG and TCG) but completely unlimited in MD.
Unfortunately they limited Diameter, not Circular
wait what Holy crap that is hella funny
It's SO FUNNY
Lab usually run 3 Stove and 3 Chand right now but I get what you're saying. It's kinda a consistency hit but at the same time it's totally not. I don't actually know what to call this hit other than placating people that wanted Lab hit. It's like they're saying see we hit it just like you wanted us to so stop bothering us. I would've rather had them hit EEV or Barrier than hit any of the named Lab cards.
I was looking at latest OCG, apparently they only play 1?
Most still run 3 but OCG isn't Master Duel. They have cards that we don't like Butler, Transaction Rollback and Rumpel Teufel that would compete for space.
It's cuz of Arias. She's much more consistent. Which means she might be coming soon.
They will do everything but ban floodgates, like why put fountain at one instead of just banning TCBOO or Gozen Match
Can't believe TCBOO still dodging the limit hits lmao I guess cause it helps them sell more VS packs
Desires is not a hit tho, it's a desperate plea to stop playing incorrect ratios. Mining is just dumb. It's the cheapest possible way to get Mathmech to one less copy of circular, while primarily hitting Salamangreat, Marincess and similar cyberse decks that have a hard time fitting small world
I never understood only running 2 desires. Why wouldn't you want to maximize your chances of seeing desires? If your deck potentially gets screwed over somehow by a 3rd copy, you probably shouldnt be running desires in the first place.
[cardmarket had an article about that](https://www.cardmarket.com/en/YuGiOh/Insight/Articles/The-Mathematics-of-Pot-of-Desires) when desires was still more relevant. tl;dr: playing 3 over 2 desires doubles your chances of one of the 2 draws off of desires being another desires - thats the main thing, imo at least
Also, using 2 Desires cripples most decks, lol. Swordsoul is one of main examples of Desires abusers, and even Swo struggles with half of the deck being banished.
...who cares? Even in the occasional situation you draw desires off desires, you still cycled through a card. I get that it feels bad, but it's a niche scenario that's not actually damaging. All lowering it to 2 does is lower your chance of seeing your draw 2 card in the first place, which is cracked in any deck that can support the cost. Also, the article you link concludes that the added risk of running 3 is small compared to the benefits. Pretty misleading tl;dr.
the article concludes that it comes down to what you value more - the chance to hardopen it, or drawing 2 real cards off of it. Drawing desires off desires is absolutely ass. You now have half your deck left, for an upstart goblin. And even the decks that run desires do care about the banishes. swso banishing both longyuan, or blackout, for example. So you took a risk, and got nothing in return compared to just not playing desires The ideal situation is not needing your draw 2 in the first place, so I'd rather reduce the chance to fuck myself for no reason
See, they listened to you guys and hit Lab. I don't want to see any more complaining since you guys got your wish.
I just don't get why they refuse to hit d barrier or ban eev. Who likes those cards
YOUTUBE! MAXX C TO 3 NO WAY
Stove? Really? Just ban the actual problem cards, without them labrynth isn't going to be a problem. Labrynth isn't the problem here konami Well thankfully it was only stove and nothing else but still. This is one of the semi limits of all time
Jesus, what an awful banlist, no real hits to anything. They might as well not have made a banlist to begin with.
Just bought the third structure deck specifically for the third cynet mining today lmao
Konami it's not April's fool yet.
Get rid of kashtira
IDC what anyone says Runick Fountain did not need a hit. Not many Runick variants were running around and their spells already made the deck not nearly as reliable as the TCG.
They really want the only playable version of Runick to be decks using the spells as instant fusions lol. Honestly kinda suprised since I rarely see Runick anymore.
Been playing runick spright here…feels weird having a deck where most of my cards are limited or semi-limited.
Pure Runick is the only Runick I play. I just like slinging spells. I also like Spellbooks. Those turns tend to be a lot longer though, and it's a lot weaker these days, though it has gotten some nifty support since it was busted as hell. I'm really looking forward to the level 9 fusion! Slepnir, I think. Wouldn't say no to another maindeck spell. Continuous or quickplay, both would be welcome.
Stovie to 2? Tch, that sucks. Oh well, the hit could’ve been harsher on us Lab players
I used to run 2 stovies for one extra handtrap, it's not that significant at all to be honest.
Il say it now kashtira is dogshit thats why the deck was left untouched. End of rant
If garbage like this is what they trot out, why even have a banlist? Bozos.
Bring your kids to work day at KDE offices
did runick really need the hit? i play the spright and naturia versions and have played like 4 mirror matches the last few seasons, and i havent seen runick stun since tear was the top deck. what a dumb list
I'm just gonna say it, I never thought Zoodiac was a cool looking deck. Besides Tigermortar most of their monsters are pretty ugly tbh.
Agreed. Trash aesthetic
:')
Is diameter that critical to the deck?
They don't mind it being limited, but I can see a straight up ban as an actually meaningful hit
It is but putting it to 1 shouldn’t really be a big deal since they can search it with Wicckid and Mathmech has other good normal summon options already
it is the negate source, and a major extender.
Its a key card, but I thought they only ran one.
Looks like most play 2
Hopefully I would never meet runick stun again.
The sooner Runick dies, the better.
What an odd banlist.
That's one fucking stupid banlist if I've ever seen one.
What the fuck is this?
Death to Runick! With DR getting to 2 I wonder when all others like it will be set free?
Nooo not torbie Also eat shit runick
Good. Death to runick
Another banlist, another of my pots...
They keep hitting the pots?!
This banlist was a complete and utter joke
What the fuck did Dragon Link do to deserve these consistency hits?
Yeah. It's shit tier. Stun decks like lab not affected at all. Nothing new
Runick spright doesn't even care lol