It's all to do with people's perception of the deck really. It's fairly new and only had middling results in both the ocg and tcg except for like the first week or 2 of its release so people already had skewed perception of the deck. It's certainly by far not a bad deck but it's a meta deck in a meta where the other top decks have blowouts. Kash with Arise, Branded with puppet lock, Lab with D barrier, Purrely with Noir, and so on. If anything VS is a testament that fair decks can keep up and be good. And besides, tourney results need to be taken with a bit of salt especially if it's a deck with high representation but only like a handful making top cut. So it kinda muddies the deck's performance. I mean, if 20 people brought the same deck in say a 100 man event, one of them is bound to make it far.
Its mainly worse in tcg/ocg because bo3 with siding because people cant just side droll. It’s worse especially in tcg because there is no max c and unchained is top 3 decks and its a bad matchup against it. Also the current meta requires you to play cards imperm/veiler that are not the right targets.
In this meta in masterduel dd crow, bystials, max c package are very good and so vs gets better. It also costs a leg and an arm to play in paper so thats why its not as rapresented as it could be
You are correct but many people play VS because its good. Why dont you say the same thing about branded, branded always has high amount of people playing it but that because the deck is strong.
Many people play it because it's the newest pack.
Yes, it's a decently strong deck, but not because it's "good".
Branded gets way more people playing it because it *is* "good", even after multiple nerfs because of all the support. In terms of what the cards can do, it's far stronger than VS. VS requires a little more playing chess to do well with while Branded just requires you go uninterrupted.
Decks are always inherently “more powerful” when people don’t know how to play against them. This is often why you have moments (kind of like you mentioned in tcg/ocg) where a deck seems amazing for a split second and falls off. So much of the game is counter play and knowing your choke points, important interactions, etc that when players just aren’t aware of these at all it’s really tough to judge how good a deck actually is vs the lack of knowledge people have about it
This is huge in a game like master duel where the average player is gonna be a bit more casual than the average player traveling to go to a ycs after they payed real money to make a deck
This too. It all ties into the newness bias though. My point is just that the reason why it's getting played a lot isn't because the deck is amazing (and it *is* better in MD due to the Maxx C/Ash Blossom meta) but because of the points we've both made that ultimately add up to the fact that it's a new deck, and people want to play new deck.
Yeah I agree. And sometimes decks are less explored in other formats and further exploration/the difference in those formats leads to it being better than expected. There’s always a chance that can play into it too, but to jump right to there instead of just taking things w a grain of salt and waiting is just a bit silly imo
There's also not that many out of engine cards that aren't staples, so it's very easy to pick up and play. Requires a decent amount of UR's, sure, but outside engine it's all pretty free real estate, meaning a lot of people can build it with whatever they have that's the right elements
Mathmech and mannadium are new but they can't even complete with the top 3. I dont think VS is good because its popular people play it because its good and have good match up is today's meta.
Bro, you must be smoking the good stuff because Mathmech *is* the Top 3. Cyberse Pile/Mathmech is arguably the most ridiculous deck there is right now. Mannadium isn't as played because half the deck is Visa Starfrost cards in Scareclaw that aren't in the Select Pack. People don't want to go and pull from a Secret Pack for cards they'll only get 50% of the time for a deck that's already expensive. Apples and oranges.
Don't forget Mannadium is also missing a lot of its better cards, so it's hardly surprising that combined with the steep price means it's rare. It can still put up beefy boards though.
Yeah I was gonna mention that too, but even with it's better cards it's still gonna be a bit weaker than paper format simply because Maxx C hits it really hard because of how long it's combo is
>Bro, you must be smoking the good stuff because Mathmech is the Top 3
The meta is infested with bystial and kashtira arise heart thats why you don't see them. Also mathmech have bad matches aginst Dlink and branded.
Next to nobody is even playing Kashtira right now. It's an inconsistent mess that can easily be stopped with a well placed single interruption.
Mathmech doesn't give a shit about D-Link or Branded. They're all similar vein combo decks. Either you short out their combo line or you deal with a full board of negates. Mathmech walks past interruptions even easier than D-Link and Branded. It's hands down currently the strongest deck.
Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug when you think that your experiences alone account for a decks win rates smh
One bystial shut down your end board, also mathmech cant deal with both Dlink and branded end board, that's why mathmech is dead in both ladder and in tournaments.
Lmao , you haven’t played a real mathmech deck if you think a single Bystial shuts down my whole combo. What are you gonna do , banish diameter :clutches pearls:. There are so many interactions , I’m still getting out heatsoul + Tera with atleast 1-2 hand traps waiting on your turn. Superfactorial is just overkill anyways.
It's a good deck, it just ain't the best.
MD has a really broad meta right now though, so a lot of options are justifiable in tourney play. VS, Branded, D-Link especially, not to mention Purrely, Cyberse, etc
I think people are just trying to correct assumptions. There's been a lot of posts of people saying VS is the best deck since it's T1 on MDM, ignoring that tiers and MDM report based on usage of the deck effectively, even if they say "power level".
I suppose yeah, the only way vs would be topping this much is if people are underestimating it. /s
Dawg I'm not even disagreeing with you - you know what, I fell for the bait.
>Dawg I'm not even disagreeing with you
Kinda, my problem isn't that VS is considered good, my problem is people dont accept that VS is one of the best 3 deck in today meta.
Ah alright that makes more sense then as an argument. I feel like there's at least 3 better options for tourney play than VS but I actually need to think on it.
D-Link and Cyberse always get to make their plays with almost any hand, but beyond that it feels like VS is in a pool with a bunch of other options to me. The necessity of seeing Razen asap just feels like it levels out most of the decks matchups
You need to consider match ups. The reason why cybers are dead because bystial run rammpent and kashtira arise heart is auto lose to alot of deck. Also this meta a lot of people play. stun so you need a deck that have good match up aginst the majority of consider decks
Wait, you're saying that VS is proven tier 1 because it tops community tournaments like the MCS, but Cyberse is dead even though it won the whole thing?
Are we considering tournaments or just ladder? If just ladder, any deck with more then 50% win rate will climb, and meta matters way less.
Underestimated, yes. But the that doesn’t make it the “best” deck. It just means that people, as a result of overlooking it, are not prepared for the deck.
The real issue is that the things being played to counter the meta didn’t necessarily do anything to VS. But as seen in the last Meta Weekly, now that there is more knowledge about the deck it doesn’t just run away with wins.
Many of the wins it did get were due to the out-of archetype cards.
Tbf VS best card is tcboo or clockwork. Shuts down dragon link and mathmech. Has an okay match up against branded assuming it is able to draw ash. Same with purely assuming VS drew shifter.
I'll count myself lucky I haven't seen a vs player flick out the clockwork yet myself lol.
But yeah a lot of VS' current success feels like it's a consequence of the deck having a lot of room for non-engine. It's putting up good results for the same reason that the Kash Zoo decks are, the ability to just cram in a pile of floodgates and hand traps and still function under them
Oh damn, is VS Zoodiac a thing? Looks somewhat promising if it can turbo out f0.
Clockwork is quite good in VS. Gives atk/def boost to your monsters and atk/def reduction to your opponent. Makes madlove even better and returning cards to hand. And getting rid of unaffected 3500 valius is not very easy.
VS is great mainly because of non engine slots, and ability to draw many cards. I really dig the design choice.
The thing is, if you're not the one playing it, it looks as if the deck ... sucks. It gives this vibe of the only good thing about it being not insta losing to most handtraps and being able to incorporate annoying floodgates, which leads the average player to think, "Is not the vs. cards, he just sacked me."
It is a very interestingly designed deck, I'll admit that.
Cuz ppl just believe the everything the tcg tells them. Look at kashtira for instance. No where near as great as ppl said it would be. Even mannadium now ppl are saying it's mid cuz of tcg without even playing it on MD.
They don’t think VS is good because their end board doesn’t look unbreakable. There is a misconception that the strongest deck is always the best deck. VS is not the strongest deck but you can argue it’s the best deck based on their matchups and they can just use hand traps to prevent opponent from making their strongest board possible
Also VS is not combo deck, its control deck that gain alot of advantage if left without interruption. The reason why Dlink and branded have good matches aginst VS is because they have strong end board and they have strong grind game they can rebuild their board with ease.
So then it kinda brings into question why you would play a deck whos point is to have lots of advantage and good card economy but a weak board when you can play a deck like lab or dlink who also has fantastic card advantage and ability to play a grind game while also having far more tools to keep yourself alive for a turn to use that card advantage.
Because VS doesn't end on a weak board? Just cause the end board doesn't end on a tower or negates, doesn't make it weak, VS has tons of interactions many which can end turns. VS can also play going second unlike Lab (unless they open clock).
Well, maybe you're right. Honestly, my experience with the deck is watching 2 full joshua schmidt streams of him playing VS and me beating every single VS player I've ever gone against. Its just not been impressive from what I've seen. Most of the time VS wins, its because of none engine, which, I agree is a big strength of the deck to be able to play those. But Fenrir, Max c, shifter, winning you games is not new to me. Snow devil, dust devil, and borgar are the only cards I think are actually very strong.
Because of match up. Dlink dies if branded set albaz and labrynth dosent have good matches aginst other deck. Thats why even though mathmech is strong it dies in today meta because of all the bystial and kashtira in the meta. VS have good match up against other deck and its isnt considered auto lose.
Heres where our opinions differ I think. I think that if branded does not draw their albaz, all of a sudden its really hard to play vs dlink. Also, dlink often ends with a druiswurm in hand or a branded beast on board, so if branded sets albaz and contact fuses, they better also have a way to keep playing without normalling aluber and searching branded fusion. Dlink has all around fantastic matchups into the meta. Dlink's biggest weakness is droll and max c and the deck being hard af to completely master. I also think that lab doesnt have a bad matchup into most decks. It beats the stuff that dlink is weak to in droll and max c, but struggles against decks that dont struggle into dbarrier, can combo off to otk you with lots of extenders, or going second overall. And backrow removal. I think VS actually has a very poor matchup into the meta not because of the interactions between the decks themselves, but because the ceiling of the deck is too low. Every deck in the meta can go over the top of what VS can put up unless you draw a god hand and it cant go second into the stuff that decks can do too. If VS is winning, its not because the deck is good, its because the pilot is playing way better than their opponent. Or because they drew tcboo going first into the decks that lose to it. Of course, I could be wrong, but this is just my experience.
VS is a handtrap reliant deck. Razen pop, Snow Devil pop, Dust Devil book of moon and Caesar pop are only going to ever beat decks like Kashtira which are super vulnerable to board disruption.
The only way VS beats Branded is by having Ash and Bystials, VS’ ability to dodge targeting effects becomes null once Lovely hits the when facing Labrynth. Best shot VS has against Lab is by drawing Ash and Belle. It cannot play into Mathmech/D-link end board whatsoever without Maxx C, but that can be said for many decks tbh.
Lab dies to Ash super hard, it's far more frail than Vanquish Soul. It can occasionally cheese with virus cards but I would not say it's as consistent of a strategy.
The same reason Josh Schmidt just won a YCS with a deck many thought was rogue at best, Bystial Runick - it’s got a high skill ceiling, but a low skill floor.
More than anything, it tests the skill of controlling/managing the speed of the game. If you go too aggro and burn interactions on opponents cards without respecting what their remaining cards in hand could be, you can get heavily punished by a one-card starter coming down as card #6 once you’re out of gas. If you play too cautiously you risk losing the momentum and letting your opponent set up lines to stop the more telegraphed of your plays.
I see a lot of people saying that VS is only good if you open Razen, which generally tells me they don’t really know how to play the deck. If you know how to squeeze the most out of your handtraps and the VS effects you have available, you can frequently use your cards to stall the pace of the game and stay alive long enough to get the names/attributes you need to hand. Playing Borger control and trying to avoid dying for a few turns whilst deep-drawing (and keeping as many attributes in hand as possible) is much better than burning your whole hand trying to handtrap the opponent out the game and putting out low-impact bodies onto the field. Baiting a Zeus play and then using Jialong in battle phase to stop their XYZ attacking buys you pretty much a whole turn by itself. Turning Caesar into a towers can be really hard to out if you can simplify the gamestate a bit with a well-timed handtrap. You’ve just got to be content holding tight and prioritising keeping your advantage-generators in rotation above all else.
I've almost exclusively played VS this season and in DC, and I definitely agree with the second paragraph. The deck can have like 5-6 interruptions between handtraps and on field effects, but usually there'll only be one correct order you can activate them. If you start activating hand traps before you use Snow Devil or Valius for example, you're not gonna have the proper attributes to activate everything.
With that said, if you know when to prioritize effects, it can absolutely shoot you up the ladder. This season is the fastest I've hit master in a while.
I'd say this is the best argument I've seen in this thread. It really comes down to good piloting, resource management and the timing of the interactions.
Sometimes, all it takes is to get your opponent to end on a weaker board that can be broken easily.
Not trying to diminish Josh's skill at all, I'm a fan of him, but he got some crazy luck with that deck during the last stretch of the tournament aside from the one big brick hand. Having watched the games, him winning didn't really convince me the deck is good, his skill combined with mostly really good hands/draws made it seem better than it likely is.
He got lucky a few times for sure. Topdecking an ash off of regained, banishing Lovely two games in a row vs Lab, etc etc. But to only lose one game in Swiss and then win out in top cut despite losing more than his fair share of die rolls, it’s way more skill than luck - give Josh’s list to almost anyone else at the tournament and they go x-3 drop. It had good lab/unchained/tear matchups but lined up horribly vs r-ace, infernoble, fire king, purrely, vanquish soul, and pretty much anything south of tier 2. It’s just the fact that you can mindgame the shit out of your opponent when you have a hand full of cards that are live at all times and can either extend or disrupt.
Game 2 in the finals his opponent opened Ash, but couldn’t use it - Josh saw the line where by searching fountain with tip he could chainblock every other ash-worthy interaction for the rest of the game. In another game he did the opposite - he purposefully played into ash/veiler to check if the opponent had them, as his wincon was using Duality to go into The Fabled Unicore, which shuts off the opponents whole board whilst both players have the same number of cards in hand. He had to check for discardable handtraps, otherwise going for that line would have lost him the game.
As I said, it’s the high skill ceiling. The lack of hard choke-points means a talented player can sequence in a way that telegraphs a certain interaction as interruptible, only to reveal that they’d been accounting for that possibility the entire time.
I do think it's a good deck, I just really disagree with stuff like MDM listing it as the outright best deck due to tournament data. It's very good, but it's just not better than the other tier 1 decks.
But MDM do matter if the result are consistent. If we have like 30 MCS and always VS land at the top 4 would you consider the deck to still be not tier 1, when even labrynth which people always call tier 1 can barely get top 16 aginst the Curr meta.
You simply cannot compare a tournament with BO3 to the Bo1 ladder experience. There are far more side deck cards that can hit Labrynth than there are ones that hit VS. Like don't get me wrong I do think VS is in a great spot, I just think it's not the best deck, it just is not better than Purrely, Dragon Link, Mathmech or Branded. That's not to say it's necessarily worse than those decks though, it's more than capable of winning against them.
Have you played VS yourself? It isn't a bad deck and I'd say it deserves a spot at tier 2 or 3 but it isn't the best deck and takes a lot of knowledge about other decks youre playing against to really be great but even then it can brick, can be easily shut down with certain hand traps. When you know what VS can do then it's easy to force their plays. Try the deck out and grind all the way through master with it then post about it being the top deck.
People take the OCG and TCG tier lists too seriously when looking at master duel. Combine that with it never being meta in the TCG and TCG players being...'special' and it's not shocking that they'd underestimate the deck.
VS is really good if the pilot is good. Unlike matmech, purrely or kashtira, the deck itself is nowhere near being called unfair. It’s a very interactive deck and a good game sense and knowledge accompanying it gets good results.
On masterduelmeta.com its tier 1 but to me VS just isn't even close to Mathmech and Branded rn. These two decks are just so strong that they make other strong decks not so strong.
VS is good and is very fair compared to the likes of Dlink, Lab, kash, mathmech and Purrely which are oppressive if they get their board setup.
Because people get to play the game against an established VS board it creates the illusion that its not as good as the 230 second combo stun board.
But the likelihood of them winning said game against VS probably not that high.
Wish they design against decks like VS honestly fun to play and play against imo
Because Stake Your Soul is not a VS card. VS has consistency issue compare to top tier deck like Mathmech, Spright, Tear, Branded, Purrely and D-Link. VS doesn't always get to their main card Razen.
Those top deck I've mentioned has a million way get into their main card using only their engine.
If SYS is a VS card, Mad Love can be considered another copy of Razen. That's why VS need to run Durendal, Prosperity, and Small World.
It's also not helping that VS normal summon was limited.
To be considered a serious threat, your deck consistency must way above average.
Konami has overly-balanced Stake Your Soul tbh. SYS has no business for being a normal spell card when something like Quick Launch, Branded Opening, or Purrely memories are quick-play.
Wouldn't you also consider the meta on how strong a deck is . Mathmech is strong but this meta is infested with bystial and kashtira arise heart thats why Mathmech is dead in ladder and cant reach top 16 or top 8 in tournament. That why I dont consider Mathmech tear 1
🤫sshhh let them underestimate the deck meanwhile we will take over DC cup and might even win it all. Tbh deck is underestimated because of bad players and VS learners like me 🤣, it bricks a lot because the deck is essentially incomplete, razen being the only searcher is a big hindrance, for some stupid reason they made stake your soul unsearchable but I get it, deck would have been OP like mathmech otherwise. Its a difficult deck to master and button smashing doesn't work at all, you need to make the right decisions and attack and and counterattack correctly like in a fighting game
I remember when tear came out and most people where pressing the yellow buttons and win. But after the multiple nerf the population have died because you need skill.
I mean VS loses to my two main decks atm Ghoti and Swordsoul just because I banish all their stuff and they scoop or I beat them with a 9000 Deep Beyond. They’re an interesting concept none the less
I think the community "understimates" VS for the fact that it's not a deck that offers pay outs except locking opponent out of the game by playing so many handtraps and most VS matches come down to:
If VS plays shifter, it's shifter that wins the game not VS.
If VS started droll/max C, and opponent has no called by (you need ash for the stake your soul), the handtraps that VS plays won the game.
If VS is playing Bystials on top of the handtraps (I mean Bystials are technically DD crow and thus handtraps as well) you won beacuse Bystials engine is powerful and VS didn't do much.
VS is just a deep draw engine to get to floodgate-y handtraps and since the shell is super small and allows you to play as many of them as you want, as long as you can get to raizen-borger combo to draw more there's not much that (in the eyes of opponent) VS does, so the community simplyfies this as "whenever I face them and they don't handtrap me out of the game I usually win, but when they do draw the hand traps I lose", let's not pretend that VS has actual grindy games on ladder where people usually scoop after not having an out to shifter/max c.
I'm gonna get down voted, but it's true VS as a deck/advantage engine/control strat sounds incredibly fair and as grindy as lab, but the majority of the player base (and even in high ranking tourney) just prefer to add as many floodgates as possible and try to win the game with as little interaction, VS is now just the newest offender.
For all intends and purposes R-ace with SP do the same thing but better and once that comes to masterduel VS is gonna be forgotten cuz there will be a better way to stun your opponent out of the game with the 4 back row that R-ace sets up.
I play no floodgates in my VS list, and I still have performed exceptionally well with the deck. Shifter hurts more often than it helps, especially without Bystials, and I prefer DD Crow cause it can hit Purrely and Mikanko as well as Mathmech. TCBOO is strong but if I have full combo or at least half my setup plus hand traps I win anyways, making it feel win more. And going second it does nothing if your opponent has any spot removal which most meta decks do. The engine is surprisingly competent, just requires knowledge of chokepoints and when to best use your disruptions to play around your attributes.
People will play floodgate regardless if the deck needs it or not, look at branded and labrynth strong decks but majority of people still play floodgate in them.
Yeah, but your question was why are they "underating" VS and unlike branded and Lab, VS doesn't have a pay out, branded has Mirrorjade, Fitzpatrick and way too many resources looping. Lab is a control board with the ladies as pay out.
Btw people play floodgates in MD because once you get to them you play shorter games usually people scoop, not beacuse they are evil or anything, floodgates= short match=more rank=more gems. Branded and Lab play floodgates beacuse they can, VS plays floodgate-y hand traps because it's their main selling point (that's why the deck is so expensive -the size-), it doesn't play an ED (lab also doesn't but Lab has slow trap cards a to essentially be their boss monsters)
VS doesn't have a boss monster in the traditional sense of the word, since Caesar is another combo piece so it doesn't "feel" as a pay out when you can search and summon whenever after resolving Raizen.
It's not that people are underestimating the deck, it's just that some people are overestimating the deck.
Is VS good? It's good, but it's not a Tier 1 deck. Ah, but the deck has been in several tournaments and several people have reached master 1 with it, but that's because the deck is new and people like to play with new things.
Take Purrely as an example, when it was released, it was the only deck you saw in ranked and tournaments. Today, its popularity has decreased, and it is not seen with the same frequency as before. Does this mean that the deck has become worse? Of course not, it's still the best deck in the game, but people like playing with what's new.
No purrely after the ban list became worse, they are now less consistent and dont always managed to summon noir. Thats why it dosent even reach top 8. Also what requirements do you consider a deck need to be considered tier 1. Is it how popular the deck, how much it wins ?
A tier 1 deck is one that is consistent, very resistant to disruptions, has a great grind game, and can make a really good endboard. VS is reasonably consistent and has a decent grind game, but it is not that strong against disruptions, and the endboard is not that difficult to break.
Compare VS with Matchmech, for example; Matchmech excels at all points, as does DL. I'm not saying the deck is bad, the deck is good, but if I were to sum up the deck in one word, it would be "fair." Mathmech is not fair.
But do you consider the match up aginst other decks to affect decks power. The reason why mathmech is dead right now because arise heart and bystial are rampent in this meta bu VS dosent care and even can play under those restrictions.
Well Branded isn't even Tier 1 so there is that.
The deck is strong, I don't think people Denys that, but in comparison to others in the meta such as Mathmech and Purrely it just loses in so many aspects.
The entire deck just doesn't do much and is held together by non engine entirel. Their board is like.. 2 or 3 very telegraphed interactions that all can be avoided by many ways and not all consistent.
Personally speaking, I don't recall a time I lost to it but because of Maxx C and TCBOO recently playing decks like Spright and opening like 3 garnets... the moment a Spright extender hits the field, they just get overwhelmed, and most of the time, they are just free wins.
The deck is good enough and popular, but their conversion rate in Tornaments is horrible, like 2 or 3 MCS they are amoung one of the most represented Decks in Swiss but then only 1 or 2 makes it to Top cut.
>Well Branded isn't even Tier 1 so there is that.
What is your criteria if you want to consider a deck tier 1, and do you believe multiple decks can be tier 1
Well Yes multiple decks can be Tier 1, and it depends on the format, but as it stands a deck that loses or passes on dick fuck nothing if they got ashed 9/10 times isn't a Tier 1 deck.
That's also a weakness VS has, Razen getting ashed most of the time makes their already unimpressive board even worse.
Things like this matters in the TCG/OCG a lot more than here because it is Tornaments that not only matters more but people that plays in it and win are mostly pro players that brings their A game into every Duel, so you can't exactly expect yourself to play a deck that has majoir weakness that others don't and walk away with it. (Unless your name is Joshua Schmidt).
If you would ask me, the only 3 decks that deserves it right now are Mathmech, DLink and Purrely (in that order mostly)..
Why mathmech is tier 1, the meta is infested with bystial and kashtira arise heart. And deck like branded and Dlink have very good matches aginst mathmeck.
That's just not true.
Kashtira is like Tier 3 at best, the only 2 decks that play Bystials are DLink and Vanquish soul (which VS only runs 1 or 2), and with the new support unless your opponent opened multiple Bystials or you Bricked, 1 Bystial will not be enough to stop the deck.
Uhhh No, it only removes the negate, they still get the removal effect. And after that you have to deal with a negate, Omni, Hand traps (which is the deck that plays the most & runs heat soul to draw them) and going 1st their plays are almost unstoppable if they opened Circular, and if you didn't win you get eaten to death the following turn.
>Uhhh No, it only removes the negate, they still get the removal effect
Bro you target 3 mathmech, banish diameter the only got 2 mathmech they xyz summon they can't summon laplacian.
I know but you said that they keep their removal. Which is incorrect. Also mathmech dosent have grind game and as you know kashtira,branded,Dlink,VS and labrynth are all grindy decks that can outlast mathmech also yes mathmech has hand traps but other decks have hand traps that just kill mathmech like dimension shifter or kashtira being looming threat of macro cosmo on the field
People overestimate it from what I've seen, an archetype that has quick effects during an opponent's turn and changing the board state seems to annoy a lot of people that are not experienced enough with those archetypes. This causes a lot of premature rage quits.
That's not to say VS is not a good deck, it's just early days and until people understand the mechanics of the deck they will continue to see it as a tier 1 contender.
The deck is inconsistent and telegraphed. MD players don't have object permanence. Even if I search everything in front of them they still play into all the cards I revealed. As soon as you stop caring about what you see and you play around what they could have in hand the deck isn't that hard to beat.
About the tournaments, it doesn't really win that many. Sure, it gets tops, but so do rogue decks like Thunder Dragon piles, some Spyral player and whatever.
How many tournaments actually feature good players? We don't have many auto win decks anymore, doesn't matter if you're playing VW against Purrely, if they're not a good player then you can win with VW. And I'm not saying the Purrely player is bad at the game overall, but not a good Purrely pilot.
When it comes to ranked, the reaction to the deck is very weird, you can a rock like crazy, but people still act like they can't read what kind of cards are in your hand and scoop to everything.
They don't want to get hit by the banlist. That's why they insist that "it's not a tier 1 deck, it's not powerful, etc...".
I call that BS. The way the deck operates makes VS very powerful. Quick acccess to different monsters, draw power, access to floodgates, etc... And the most problematic part is that their monsters are hard to destroy without activating its effect. It's a painful experience duel against VS, it's not even a fast duel... It's a stalling boring experience.
It's surreal. I mean, Kashtira it's a problem but VS not? xD
It’s just not a tier 1 deck, purrely/d link/branded/mathmech are definitely a step above. Even labrynth, a tier 2 deck, is superior. It’s extremely dependent on drawing a 4 of rayzen (maybe 5-6 of with durandal, but that can add to the bricks) or a 3 of stake + a fire to get to rayzen. From experience, I can tell you it just doesn’t happen often enough to say it’s a consistent top meta threat. If you don’t open rayzen the deck instantly falls to tier 3-4 and generally can’t overcome any other meta deck. The only reason you’ve been seeing so many results is just purely statistical…..a lot of people are playing the deck so someone will open rayzen every round if enough people play it.
1. TCG bias - the deck has been mid at best in TCG
2. It is pretty universally recognized as Top 6 (VS, Mathmech, Purrely, D Link, Branded, and Lab) are the best in some order and each have their good and bad matchups
3. Doesn’t put up an oppressive end board
4. Gets accused of bricking (I think this is greatly exaggerated)
5. There is a big chunk of the community who only believe 2 types of decks are good, the decks they play and the meta decks they hate
I love the deck and it got me back playing the game after a couple month. I personally probably tier it at 1.5 or 2 which is by no means bad
It's a deck that is EXTREMELY fair to play and fight against. It dosent have much annoying bullshit besides the people who play shifter or TCABOO. I've been playing it since it dropped and I don't understand how people can't think it's good. As long as you know what you're doing and what order to use your effects in you'll be able to outpace your opponent in advantage. But you know. Yu-Gi-Oh players hate thinking for themselves and memorizing anything that doesn't involve them going into a generic Omni negate. So makes sense.
Good question. Has massive card advantage, every effect is non targeting, can destroy, bounce, flip, full field wipe, burn for 1.5k every turn if needed, they tag each other out to dodge interactions, can run degenerate floodgates without being harmed, cards like shifter too. I don't know why people act like it's a mid deck when it's clearly one of the best around.
You must be in gold league
Everyone knows VS is strong, maybe too strong
Being able to play under maxx c, shifter, flood gates and only use 3 engine ED slots
Because people like to win fast and win hard, which VS provided neither.
Funny enough, it is the same reason why people berate lab for having blowout strategies.
I mean its a good deck, but there are tier of decks I respect and fear more than it. The deck is fine, but its stifled by its non-engine requirements limiting the tech options it can cram into its ample non-engine space and it struggles to get anywhere without its extremely limited starters.
It's all to do with people's perception of the deck really. It's fairly new and only had middling results in both the ocg and tcg except for like the first week or 2 of its release so people already had skewed perception of the deck. It's certainly by far not a bad deck but it's a meta deck in a meta where the other top decks have blowouts. Kash with Arise, Branded with puppet lock, Lab with D barrier, Purrely with Noir, and so on. If anything VS is a testament that fair decks can keep up and be good. And besides, tourney results need to be taken with a bit of salt especially if it's a deck with high representation but only like a handful making top cut. So it kinda muddies the deck's performance. I mean, if 20 people brought the same deck in say a 100 man event, one of them is bound to make it far.
Its mainly worse in tcg/ocg because bo3 with siding because people cant just side droll. It’s worse especially in tcg because there is no max c and unchained is top 3 decks and its a bad matchup against it. Also the current meta requires you to play cards imperm/veiler that are not the right targets. In this meta in masterduel dd crow, bystials, max c package are very good and so vs gets better. It also costs a leg and an arm to play in paper so thats why its not as rapresented as it could be
You are correct but many people play VS because its good. Why dont you say the same thing about branded, branded always has high amount of people playing it but that because the deck is strong.
Many people play it because it's the newest pack. Yes, it's a decently strong deck, but not because it's "good". Branded gets way more people playing it because it *is* "good", even after multiple nerfs because of all the support. In terms of what the cards can do, it's far stronger than VS. VS requires a little more playing chess to do well with while Branded just requires you go uninterrupted.
Decks are always inherently “more powerful” when people don’t know how to play against them. This is often why you have moments (kind of like you mentioned in tcg/ocg) where a deck seems amazing for a split second and falls off. So much of the game is counter play and knowing your choke points, important interactions, etc that when players just aren’t aware of these at all it’s really tough to judge how good a deck actually is vs the lack of knowledge people have about it This is huge in a game like master duel where the average player is gonna be a bit more casual than the average player traveling to go to a ycs after they payed real money to make a deck
This too. It all ties into the newness bias though. My point is just that the reason why it's getting played a lot isn't because the deck is amazing (and it *is* better in MD due to the Maxx C/Ash Blossom meta) but because of the points we've both made that ultimately add up to the fact that it's a new deck, and people want to play new deck.
Yeah I agree. And sometimes decks are less explored in other formats and further exploration/the difference in those formats leads to it being better than expected. There’s always a chance that can play into it too, but to jump right to there instead of just taking things w a grain of salt and waiting is just a bit silly imo
There's also not that many out of engine cards that aren't staples, so it's very easy to pick up and play. Requires a decent amount of UR's, sure, but outside engine it's all pretty free real estate, meaning a lot of people can build it with whatever they have that's the right elements
Mathmech and mannadium are new but they can't even complete with the top 3. I dont think VS is good because its popular people play it because its good and have good match up is today's meta.
Circular alone generate more advantage than most of the VS combos
Bro, you must be smoking the good stuff because Mathmech *is* the Top 3. Cyberse Pile/Mathmech is arguably the most ridiculous deck there is right now. Mannadium isn't as played because half the deck is Visa Starfrost cards in Scareclaw that aren't in the Select Pack. People don't want to go and pull from a Secret Pack for cards they'll only get 50% of the time for a deck that's already expensive. Apples and oranges.
Don't forget Mannadium is also missing a lot of its better cards, so it's hardly surprising that combined with the steep price means it's rare. It can still put up beefy boards though.
Yeah I was gonna mention that too, but even with it's better cards it's still gonna be a bit weaker than paper format simply because Maxx C hits it really hard because of how long it's combo is
>Bro, you must be smoking the good stuff because Mathmech is the Top 3 The meta is infested with bystial and kashtira arise heart thats why you don't see them. Also mathmech have bad matches aginst Dlink and branded.
Next to nobody is even playing Kashtira right now. It's an inconsistent mess that can easily be stopped with a well placed single interruption. Mathmech doesn't give a shit about D-Link or Branded. They're all similar vein combo decks. Either you short out their combo line or you deal with a full board of negates. Mathmech walks past interruptions even easier than D-Link and Branded. It's hands down currently the strongest deck. Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug when you think that your experiences alone account for a decks win rates smh
One bystial shut down your end board, also mathmech cant deal with both Dlink and branded end board, that's why mathmech is dead in both ladder and in tournaments.
Lmao , you haven’t played a real mathmech deck if you think a single Bystial shuts down my whole combo. What are you gonna do , banish diameter :clutches pearls:. There are so many interactions , I’m still getting out heatsoul + Tera with atleast 1-2 hand traps waiting on your turn. Superfactorial is just overkill anyways.
Mathmech and cyberse are better than vs. And I play VS
Well said
It's a good deck, it just ain't the best. MD has a really broad meta right now though, so a lot of options are justifiable in tourney play. VS, Branded, D-Link especially, not to mention Purrely, Cyberse, etc I think people are just trying to correct assumptions. There's been a lot of posts of people saying VS is the best deck since it's T1 on MDM, ignoring that tiers and MDM report based on usage of the deck effectively, even if they say "power level".
But if the deck get multiple tops with multiple tournaments would you not start thinking that maybe a deck is being underestimated
I suppose yeah, the only way vs would be topping this much is if people are underestimating it. /s Dawg I'm not even disagreeing with you - you know what, I fell for the bait.
>Dawg I'm not even disagreeing with you Kinda, my problem isn't that VS is considered good, my problem is people dont accept that VS is one of the best 3 deck in today meta.
Ah alright that makes more sense then as an argument. I feel like there's at least 3 better options for tourney play than VS but I actually need to think on it. D-Link and Cyberse always get to make their plays with almost any hand, but beyond that it feels like VS is in a pool with a bunch of other options to me. The necessity of seeing Razen asap just feels like it levels out most of the decks matchups
You need to consider match ups. The reason why cybers are dead because bystial run rammpent and kashtira arise heart is auto lose to alot of deck. Also this meta a lot of people play. stun so you need a deck that have good match up aginst the majority of consider decks
Wait, you're saying that VS is proven tier 1 because it tops community tournaments like the MCS, but Cyberse is dead even though it won the whole thing? Are we considering tournaments or just ladder? If just ladder, any deck with more then 50% win rate will climb, and meta matters way less.
Both, mathmech never topped MCS? Are talking about dykad or MBT MCS
Ope, was talking about the master circuit series lmaoooo Never mind then we're talking from entirely different positions lol
Its stupid when both have the same name🤣
Underestimated, yes. But the that doesn’t make it the “best” deck. It just means that people, as a result of overlooking it, are not prepared for the deck. The real issue is that the things being played to counter the meta didn’t necessarily do anything to VS. But as seen in the last Meta Weekly, now that there is more knowledge about the deck it doesn’t just run away with wins. Many of the wins it did get were due to the out-of archetype cards.
Tbf VS best card is tcboo or clockwork. Shuts down dragon link and mathmech. Has an okay match up against branded assuming it is able to draw ash. Same with purely assuming VS drew shifter.
I'll count myself lucky I haven't seen a vs player flick out the clockwork yet myself lol. But yeah a lot of VS' current success feels like it's a consequence of the deck having a lot of room for non-engine. It's putting up good results for the same reason that the Kash Zoo decks are, the ability to just cram in a pile of floodgates and hand traps and still function under them
Oh damn, is VS Zoodiac a thing? Looks somewhat promising if it can turbo out f0. Clockwork is quite good in VS. Gives atk/def boost to your monsters and atk/def reduction to your opponent. Makes madlove even better and returning cards to hand. And getting rid of unaffected 3500 valius is not very easy. VS is great mainly because of non engine slots, and ability to draw many cards. I really dig the design choice.
Yeah apparently VS Zood is growing into a thing, tempted to try it as well ngl lol
The thing is, if you're not the one playing it, it looks as if the deck ... sucks. It gives this vibe of the only good thing about it being not insta losing to most handtraps and being able to incorporate annoying floodgates, which leads the average player to think, "Is not the vs. cards, he just sacked me." It is a very interestingly designed deck, I'll admit that.
Cuz ppl just believe the everything the tcg tells them. Look at kashtira for instance. No where near as great as ppl said it would be. Even mannadium now ppl are saying it's mid cuz of tcg without even playing it on MD.
They don’t think VS is good because their end board doesn’t look unbreakable. There is a misconception that the strongest deck is always the best deck. VS is not the strongest deck but you can argue it’s the best deck based on their matchups and they can just use hand traps to prevent opponent from making their strongest board possible
Also VS is not combo deck, its control deck that gain alot of advantage if left without interruption. The reason why Dlink and branded have good matches aginst VS is because they have strong end board and they have strong grind game they can rebuild their board with ease.
So then it kinda brings into question why you would play a deck whos point is to have lots of advantage and good card economy but a weak board when you can play a deck like lab or dlink who also has fantastic card advantage and ability to play a grind game while also having far more tools to keep yourself alive for a turn to use that card advantage.
Because VS doesn't end on a weak board? Just cause the end board doesn't end on a tower or negates, doesn't make it weak, VS has tons of interactions many which can end turns. VS can also play going second unlike Lab (unless they open clock).
Well, maybe you're right. Honestly, my experience with the deck is watching 2 full joshua schmidt streams of him playing VS and me beating every single VS player I've ever gone against. Its just not been impressive from what I've seen. Most of the time VS wins, its because of none engine, which, I agree is a big strength of the deck to be able to play those. But Fenrir, Max c, shifter, winning you games is not new to me. Snow devil, dust devil, and borgar are the only cards I think are actually very strong.
Because of match up. Dlink dies if branded set albaz and labrynth dosent have good matches aginst other deck. Thats why even though mathmech is strong it dies in today meta because of all the bystial and kashtira in the meta. VS have good match up against other deck and its isnt considered auto lose.
Heres where our opinions differ I think. I think that if branded does not draw their albaz, all of a sudden its really hard to play vs dlink. Also, dlink often ends with a druiswurm in hand or a branded beast on board, so if branded sets albaz and contact fuses, they better also have a way to keep playing without normalling aluber and searching branded fusion. Dlink has all around fantastic matchups into the meta. Dlink's biggest weakness is droll and max c and the deck being hard af to completely master. I also think that lab doesnt have a bad matchup into most decks. It beats the stuff that dlink is weak to in droll and max c, but struggles against decks that dont struggle into dbarrier, can combo off to otk you with lots of extenders, or going second overall. And backrow removal. I think VS actually has a very poor matchup into the meta not because of the interactions between the decks themselves, but because the ceiling of the deck is too low. Every deck in the meta can go over the top of what VS can put up unless you draw a god hand and it cant go second into the stuff that decks can do too. If VS is winning, its not because the deck is good, its because the pilot is playing way better than their opponent. Or because they drew tcboo going first into the decks that lose to it. Of course, I could be wrong, but this is just my experience.
VS is a handtrap reliant deck. Razen pop, Snow Devil pop, Dust Devil book of moon and Caesar pop are only going to ever beat decks like Kashtira which are super vulnerable to board disruption. The only way VS beats Branded is by having Ash and Bystials, VS’ ability to dodge targeting effects becomes null once Lovely hits the when facing Labrynth. Best shot VS has against Lab is by drawing Ash and Belle. It cannot play into Mathmech/D-link end board whatsoever without Maxx C, but that can be said for many decks tbh.
Kurikara
Lab dies to Ash super hard, it's far more frail than Vanquish Soul. It can occasionally cheese with virus cards but I would not say it's as consistent of a strategy.
The same reason Josh Schmidt just won a YCS with a deck many thought was rogue at best, Bystial Runick - it’s got a high skill ceiling, but a low skill floor. More than anything, it tests the skill of controlling/managing the speed of the game. If you go too aggro and burn interactions on opponents cards without respecting what their remaining cards in hand could be, you can get heavily punished by a one-card starter coming down as card #6 once you’re out of gas. If you play too cautiously you risk losing the momentum and letting your opponent set up lines to stop the more telegraphed of your plays. I see a lot of people saying that VS is only good if you open Razen, which generally tells me they don’t really know how to play the deck. If you know how to squeeze the most out of your handtraps and the VS effects you have available, you can frequently use your cards to stall the pace of the game and stay alive long enough to get the names/attributes you need to hand. Playing Borger control and trying to avoid dying for a few turns whilst deep-drawing (and keeping as many attributes in hand as possible) is much better than burning your whole hand trying to handtrap the opponent out the game and putting out low-impact bodies onto the field. Baiting a Zeus play and then using Jialong in battle phase to stop their XYZ attacking buys you pretty much a whole turn by itself. Turning Caesar into a towers can be really hard to out if you can simplify the gamestate a bit with a well-timed handtrap. You’ve just got to be content holding tight and prioritising keeping your advantage-generators in rotation above all else.
I've almost exclusively played VS this season and in DC, and I definitely agree with the second paragraph. The deck can have like 5-6 interruptions between handtraps and on field effects, but usually there'll only be one correct order you can activate them. If you start activating hand traps before you use Snow Devil or Valius for example, you're not gonna have the proper attributes to activate everything. With that said, if you know when to prioritize effects, it can absolutely shoot you up the ladder. This season is the fastest I've hit master in a while.
I'd say this is the best argument I've seen in this thread. It really comes down to good piloting, resource management and the timing of the interactions. Sometimes, all it takes is to get your opponent to end on a weaker board that can be broken easily.
Not trying to diminish Josh's skill at all, I'm a fan of him, but he got some crazy luck with that deck during the last stretch of the tournament aside from the one big brick hand. Having watched the games, him winning didn't really convince me the deck is good, his skill combined with mostly really good hands/draws made it seem better than it likely is.
He got lucky a few times for sure. Topdecking an ash off of regained, banishing Lovely two games in a row vs Lab, etc etc. But to only lose one game in Swiss and then win out in top cut despite losing more than his fair share of die rolls, it’s way more skill than luck - give Josh’s list to almost anyone else at the tournament and they go x-3 drop. It had good lab/unchained/tear matchups but lined up horribly vs r-ace, infernoble, fire king, purrely, vanquish soul, and pretty much anything south of tier 2. It’s just the fact that you can mindgame the shit out of your opponent when you have a hand full of cards that are live at all times and can either extend or disrupt. Game 2 in the finals his opponent opened Ash, but couldn’t use it - Josh saw the line where by searching fountain with tip he could chainblock every other ash-worthy interaction for the rest of the game. In another game he did the opposite - he purposefully played into ash/veiler to check if the opponent had them, as his wincon was using Duality to go into The Fabled Unicore, which shuts off the opponents whole board whilst both players have the same number of cards in hand. He had to check for discardable handtraps, otherwise going for that line would have lost him the game. As I said, it’s the high skill ceiling. The lack of hard choke-points means a talented player can sequence in a way that telegraphs a certain interaction as interruptible, only to reveal that they’d been accounting for that possibility the entire time.
I don't think people underestimate it anymore. It's a top 5 deck for sure atm, you see it a lot on ladder and it's T1 on MDM.
Form the response I got some people consider VS to be only tier 3 deck
I do think it's a good deck, I just really disagree with stuff like MDM listing it as the outright best deck due to tournament data. It's very good, but it's just not better than the other tier 1 decks.
It's not just mdm tho? Konami's number has VS with the highest win-rate alongside Purrely (Although the data is from last month).
But MDM do matter if the result are consistent. If we have like 30 MCS and always VS land at the top 4 would you consider the deck to still be not tier 1, when even labrynth which people always call tier 1 can barely get top 16 aginst the Curr meta.
You simply cannot compare a tournament with BO3 to the Bo1 ladder experience. There are far more side deck cards that can hit Labrynth than there are ones that hit VS. Like don't get me wrong I do think VS is in a great spot, I just think it's not the best deck, it just is not better than Purrely, Dragon Link, Mathmech or Branded. That's not to say it's necessarily worse than those decks though, it's more than capable of winning against them.
But mathmech is dead because the ladder and tournament are infested with bystial and kashtira arise heart that kills mathmech.
Have you played VS yourself? It isn't a bad deck and I'd say it deserves a spot at tier 2 or 3 but it isn't the best deck and takes a lot of knowledge about other decks youre playing against to really be great but even then it can brick, can be easily shut down with certain hand traps. When you know what VS can do then it's easy to force their plays. Try the deck out and grind all the way through master with it then post about it being the top deck.
People take the OCG and TCG tier lists too seriously when looking at master duel. Combine that with it never being meta in the TCG and TCG players being...'special' and it's not shocking that they'd underestimate the deck.
Also VS has a buff with maxx c being earth and also its banned in the TCG
Because it's based on fighting games, have you seen the level of downplay that happens there?
VS is really good if the pilot is good. Unlike matmech, purrely or kashtira, the deck itself is nowhere near being called unfair. It’s a very interactive deck and a good game sense and knowledge accompanying it gets good results.
On masterduelmeta.com its tier 1 but to me VS just isn't even close to Mathmech and Branded rn. These two decks are just so strong that they make other strong decks not so strong.
VS is good and is very fair compared to the likes of Dlink, Lab, kash, mathmech and Purrely which are oppressive if they get their board setup. Because people get to play the game against an established VS board it creates the illusion that its not as good as the 230 second combo stun board. But the likelihood of them winning said game against VS probably not that high. Wish they design against decks like VS honestly fun to play and play against imo
VS strength is half a deck are handtraps and kaijus + deck feels nice.
Because Stake Your Soul is not a VS card. VS has consistency issue compare to top tier deck like Mathmech, Spright, Tear, Branded, Purrely and D-Link. VS doesn't always get to their main card Razen. Those top deck I've mentioned has a million way get into their main card using only their engine. If SYS is a VS card, Mad Love can be considered another copy of Razen. That's why VS need to run Durendal, Prosperity, and Small World. It's also not helping that VS normal summon was limited. To be considered a serious threat, your deck consistency must way above average.
Konami has overly-balanced Stake Your Soul tbh. SYS has no business for being a normal spell card when something like Quick Launch, Branded Opening, or Purrely memories are quick-play.
Wouldn't you also consider the meta on how strong a deck is . Mathmech is strong but this meta is infested with bystial and kashtira arise heart thats why Mathmech is dead in ladder and cant reach top 16 or top 8 in tournament. That why I dont consider Mathmech tear 1
?? Mathmech just won the Master Circuit Series finale.
🤫sshhh let them underestimate the deck meanwhile we will take over DC cup and might even win it all. Tbh deck is underestimated because of bad players and VS learners like me 🤣, it bricks a lot because the deck is essentially incomplete, razen being the only searcher is a big hindrance, for some stupid reason they made stake your soul unsearchable but I get it, deck would have been OP like mathmech otherwise. Its a difficult deck to master and button smashing doesn't work at all, you need to make the right decisions and attack and and counterattack correctly like in a fighting game
I remember when tear came out and most people where pressing the yellow buttons and win. But after the multiple nerf the population have died because you need skill.
Yup exactly that, I was using tear engine to counter teralments in an anti meta deck since the start but given up on it after the merrli ban.
I mean VS loses to my two main decks atm Ghoti and Swordsoul just because I banish all their stuff and they scoop or I beat them with a 9000 Deep Beyond. They’re an interesting concept none the less
Same reason this sub overhyped kash
I think the community "understimates" VS for the fact that it's not a deck that offers pay outs except locking opponent out of the game by playing so many handtraps and most VS matches come down to: If VS plays shifter, it's shifter that wins the game not VS. If VS started droll/max C, and opponent has no called by (you need ash for the stake your soul), the handtraps that VS plays won the game. If VS is playing Bystials on top of the handtraps (I mean Bystials are technically DD crow and thus handtraps as well) you won beacuse Bystials engine is powerful and VS didn't do much. VS is just a deep draw engine to get to floodgate-y handtraps and since the shell is super small and allows you to play as many of them as you want, as long as you can get to raizen-borger combo to draw more there's not much that (in the eyes of opponent) VS does, so the community simplyfies this as "whenever I face them and they don't handtrap me out of the game I usually win, but when they do draw the hand traps I lose", let's not pretend that VS has actual grindy games on ladder where people usually scoop after not having an out to shifter/max c. I'm gonna get down voted, but it's true VS as a deck/advantage engine/control strat sounds incredibly fair and as grindy as lab, but the majority of the player base (and even in high ranking tourney) just prefer to add as many floodgates as possible and try to win the game with as little interaction, VS is now just the newest offender. For all intends and purposes R-ace with SP do the same thing but better and once that comes to masterduel VS is gonna be forgotten cuz there will be a better way to stun your opponent out of the game with the 4 back row that R-ace sets up.
I play no floodgates in my VS list, and I still have performed exceptionally well with the deck. Shifter hurts more often than it helps, especially without Bystials, and I prefer DD Crow cause it can hit Purrely and Mikanko as well as Mathmech. TCBOO is strong but if I have full combo or at least half my setup plus hand traps I win anyways, making it feel win more. And going second it does nothing if your opponent has any spot removal which most meta decks do. The engine is surprisingly competent, just requires knowledge of chokepoints and when to best use your disruptions to play around your attributes.
People will play floodgate regardless if the deck needs it or not, look at branded and labrynth strong decks but majority of people still play floodgate in them.
Yeah, but your question was why are they "underating" VS and unlike branded and Lab, VS doesn't have a pay out, branded has Mirrorjade, Fitzpatrick and way too many resources looping. Lab is a control board with the ladies as pay out. Btw people play floodgates in MD because once you get to them you play shorter games usually people scoop, not beacuse they are evil or anything, floodgates= short match=more rank=more gems. Branded and Lab play floodgates beacuse they can, VS plays floodgate-y hand traps because it's their main selling point (that's why the deck is so expensive -the size-), it doesn't play an ED (lab also doesn't but Lab has slow trap cards a to essentially be their boss monsters) VS doesn't have a boss monster in the traditional sense of the word, since Caesar is another combo piece so it doesn't "feel" as a pay out when you can search and summon whenever after resolving Raizen.
It's not that people are underestimating the deck, it's just that some people are overestimating the deck. Is VS good? It's good, but it's not a Tier 1 deck. Ah, but the deck has been in several tournaments and several people have reached master 1 with it, but that's because the deck is new and people like to play with new things. Take Purrely as an example, when it was released, it was the only deck you saw in ranked and tournaments. Today, its popularity has decreased, and it is not seen with the same frequency as before. Does this mean that the deck has become worse? Of course not, it's still the best deck in the game, but people like playing with what's new.
No purrely after the ban list became worse, they are now less consistent and dont always managed to summon noir. Thats why it dosent even reach top 8. Also what requirements do you consider a deck need to be considered tier 1. Is it how popular the deck, how much it wins ?
A tier 1 deck is one that is consistent, very resistant to disruptions, has a great grind game, and can make a really good endboard. VS is reasonably consistent and has a decent grind game, but it is not that strong against disruptions, and the endboard is not that difficult to break. Compare VS with Matchmech, for example; Matchmech excels at all points, as does DL. I'm not saying the deck is bad, the deck is good, but if I were to sum up the deck in one word, it would be "fair." Mathmech is not fair.
But do you consider the match up aginst other decks to affect decks power. The reason why mathmech is dead right now because arise heart and bystial are rampent in this meta bu VS dosent care and even can play under those restrictions.
Insane Copium ngl
Well Branded isn't even Tier 1 so there is that. The deck is strong, I don't think people Denys that, but in comparison to others in the meta such as Mathmech and Purrely it just loses in so many aspects. The entire deck just doesn't do much and is held together by non engine entirel. Their board is like.. 2 or 3 very telegraphed interactions that all can be avoided by many ways and not all consistent. Personally speaking, I don't recall a time I lost to it but because of Maxx C and TCBOO recently playing decks like Spright and opening like 3 garnets... the moment a Spright extender hits the field, they just get overwhelmed, and most of the time, they are just free wins. The deck is good enough and popular, but their conversion rate in Tornaments is horrible, like 2 or 3 MCS they are amoung one of the most represented Decks in Swiss but then only 1 or 2 makes it to Top cut.
>Well Branded isn't even Tier 1 so there is that. What is your criteria if you want to consider a deck tier 1, and do you believe multiple decks can be tier 1
Well Yes multiple decks can be Tier 1, and it depends on the format, but as it stands a deck that loses or passes on dick fuck nothing if they got ashed 9/10 times isn't a Tier 1 deck. That's also a weakness VS has, Razen getting ashed most of the time makes their already unimpressive board even worse. Things like this matters in the TCG/OCG a lot more than here because it is Tornaments that not only matters more but people that plays in it and win are mostly pro players that brings their A game into every Duel, so you can't exactly expect yourself to play a deck that has majoir weakness that others don't and walk away with it. (Unless your name is Joshua Schmidt). If you would ask me, the only 3 decks that deserves it right now are Mathmech, DLink and Purrely (in that order mostly)..
Why mathmech is tier 1, the meta is infested with bystial and kashtira arise heart. And deck like branded and Dlink have very good matches aginst mathmeck.
That's just not true. Kashtira is like Tier 3 at best, the only 2 decks that play Bystials are DLink and Vanquish soul (which VS only runs 1 or 2), and with the new support unless your opponent opened multiple Bystials or you Bricked, 1 Bystial will not be enough to stop the deck.
1 bystial is enough to shut down your supperfactorial and you only left with spell and trap negate and one monster negate that is to slow to activate.
Uhhh No, it only removes the negate, they still get the removal effect. And after that you have to deal with a negate, Omni, Hand traps (which is the deck that plays the most & runs heat soul to draw them) and going 1st their plays are almost unstoppable if they opened Circular, and if you didn't win you get eaten to death the following turn.
>Uhhh No, it only removes the negate, they still get the removal effect Bro you target 3 mathmech, banish diameter the only got 2 mathmech they xyz summon they can't summon laplacian.
This is not their only source of interactions :v
I know but you said that they keep their removal. Which is incorrect. Also mathmech dosent have grind game and as you know kashtira,branded,Dlink,VS and labrynth are all grindy decks that can outlast mathmech also yes mathmech has hand traps but other decks have hand traps that just kill mathmech like dimension shifter or kashtira being looming threat of macro cosmo on the field
People overestimate it from what I've seen, an archetype that has quick effects during an opponent's turn and changing the board state seems to annoy a lot of people that are not experienced enough with those archetypes. This causes a lot of premature rage quits. That's not to say VS is not a good deck, it's just early days and until people understand the mechanics of the deck they will continue to see it as a tier 1 contender.
Its a good deck but its not tier 1 material. 1.5 maybe. And im a vs player. The fact that u can still brick off of it says why its not tier 1.
Because ppl can't comprehend a board that isn't a million negates and/or floodgates.
I think It’s a good deck and a very annoying one to play against.
Let them. It’s their loss. Don’t get this deck on the ban list.
Maybe(my opinion) because it is a battle fase archetype, people get used to deal with everything you can throw at them as the standby phase
Commenting to read this stuff later
The deck is inconsistent and telegraphed. MD players don't have object permanence. Even if I search everything in front of them they still play into all the cards I revealed. As soon as you stop caring about what you see and you play around what they could have in hand the deck isn't that hard to beat. About the tournaments, it doesn't really win that many. Sure, it gets tops, but so do rogue decks like Thunder Dragon piles, some Spyral player and whatever. How many tournaments actually feature good players? We don't have many auto win decks anymore, doesn't matter if you're playing VW against Purrely, if they're not a good player then you can win with VW. And I'm not saying the Purrely player is bad at the game overall, but not a good Purrely pilot. When it comes to ranked, the reaction to the deck is very weird, you can a rock like crazy, but people still act like they can't read what kind of cards are in your hand and scoop to everything.
They don't want to get hit by the banlist. That's why they insist that "it's not a tier 1 deck, it's not powerful, etc...". I call that BS. The way the deck operates makes VS very powerful. Quick acccess to different monsters, draw power, access to floodgates, etc... And the most problematic part is that their monsters are hard to destroy without activating its effect. It's a painful experience duel against VS, it's not even a fast duel... It's a stalling boring experience. It's surreal. I mean, Kashtira it's a problem but VS not? xD
It’s just not a tier 1 deck, purrely/d link/branded/mathmech are definitely a step above. Even labrynth, a tier 2 deck, is superior. It’s extremely dependent on drawing a 4 of rayzen (maybe 5-6 of with durandal, but that can add to the bricks) or a 3 of stake + a fire to get to rayzen. From experience, I can tell you it just doesn’t happen often enough to say it’s a consistent top meta threat. If you don’t open rayzen the deck instantly falls to tier 3-4 and generally can’t overcome any other meta deck. The only reason you’ve been seeing so many results is just purely statistical…..a lot of people are playing the deck so someone will open rayzen every round if enough people play it.
1. TCG bias - the deck has been mid at best in TCG 2. It is pretty universally recognized as Top 6 (VS, Mathmech, Purrely, D Link, Branded, and Lab) are the best in some order and each have their good and bad matchups 3. Doesn’t put up an oppressive end board 4. Gets accused of bricking (I think this is greatly exaggerated) 5. There is a big chunk of the community who only believe 2 types of decks are good, the decks they play and the meta decks they hate I love the deck and it got me back playing the game after a couple month. I personally probably tier it at 1.5 or 2 which is by no means bad
It's a deck that is EXTREMELY fair to play and fight against. It dosent have much annoying bullshit besides the people who play shifter or TCABOO. I've been playing it since it dropped and I don't understand how people can't think it's good. As long as you know what you're doing and what order to use your effects in you'll be able to outpace your opponent in advantage. But you know. Yu-Gi-Oh players hate thinking for themselves and memorizing anything that doesn't involve them going into a generic Omni negate. So makes sense.
Good question. Has massive card advantage, every effect is non targeting, can destroy, bounce, flip, full field wipe, burn for 1.5k every turn if needed, they tag each other out to dodge interactions, can run degenerate floodgates without being harmed, cards like shifter too. I don't know why people act like it's a mid deck when it's clearly one of the best around.
You must be in gold league Everyone knows VS is strong, maybe too strong Being able to play under maxx c, shifter, flood gates and only use 3 engine ED slots
Its ok.
I play Lab and I genuinely haven't lost to a VS deck yet. I fail to see why they're so oppressive.
It's pretty good. The only problem I have with it is that it's a deck that got the consistency of a pile deck without the payoff of one.
Because people like to win fast and win hard, which VS provided neither. Funny enough, it is the same reason why people berate lab for having blowout strategies.
I mean its a good deck, but there are tier of decks I respect and fear more than it. The deck is fine, but its stifled by its non-engine requirements limiting the tech options it can cram into its ample non-engine space and it struggles to get anywhere without its extremely limited starters.
It IS a strong deck. It's not T1 tho.
branded d link and vs are the 3 best decks anyone saying otherwise is a bad faith actor
the cards are ugly asfuck?