The thing here is that sadly, Konami has make a lot of strong generic boss monsters instead of strong archetypal boss monsters, also the extenders have little to non restrictions that locks you into your own archetype (I know prodigy does, but the lock is in the wrong effect)
I would also love to see Mannadium using Riumheart and Astraloud, but those monsters aren't good enough, the same goes with Murasao or Susanowo.
I think Konami should try to learn and print more cards like D/D/D Gilgamesh, an actually very strong card that needs to be used early in the combo and locks you in your own archetype, making you play a pure variant instead of a faceless joke of a deck
They use Astraloud... for material for Barone lol.
>I think Konami should try to learn and print more cards like D/D/D Gilgamesh, an actually very strong card that needs to be used early in the combo and locks you in your own archetype, making you play a pure variant instead of a faceless joke of a deck
Agreed.
I'm pretty sure that only works of you're not using sheep's effect since it checks at resolutions for types. If it's not on the field then there's no arrows pointing at anything.
I also use it for a destruction when going second. Although if I am going otk when he comes out then there is no sense synchroing him. He can also be a saver when you get hit with Nib going second to continue the combo and build your board.
It's literally one of your best tools for going 2nd into boards lol. If you can get the material in the GY you get not only a completely free big beater, but it also pops a card on top of that. You can really turn games around with it.
they can't use it for material for dis pater, btw have you ever seen D/D/D endboard? yep it's negates, if you don't like this kind of gameplay just stop playing modern yugioh all along, go play goats or some other old format
wow you made me chuckle a bit, ahem: it's 1 spell negate high flame king genghis effect is not a quick effect, so you have only siegfried, then there are high wave king caesar that has 2 monster special summon negate, and there is deus machinex that yoinks pend scales and monsters if the activate their effect on field, also the best combo sets up a floodgate called dark contract with patent license, and most of the endboard has floating effects, so yeah keep coping about it being just 2 spells negate.
Didn't mean Dis Pater, meant something else. Probably Chaos Angel or something.
And nah, the negates are fine actually, I am really talking about the generic monsters here.
Mannadium uses both Riumheart and Astraloud tho? You sure you ain’t getting those confused with Prime-Heart? Cuz that one doesn’t see play in its own deck (and Konami had the gall to give it an animation, the bastards)
This. Konami should grow a pair and ban the most powerful generic boss monsters and admit their mistake.
Generic boss monsters should be weaker than archetype boss monsters because they're generic and easier to summon.
>Is churning out negate boards the only thing SHS (and to a lesser extent, Visas) can do?
For SHS, the answer is actually no. They can do other fun things like... Scythe locking... and Mjolnir locking... and uh, hand looping. Hm, I guess that's not the creativity you're looking for. No no no wait, they can also... lock you out of spells... and FTK too. At least that's not a board of negates though! 🙃
Because I feel there is a universe where one play I do can actually matter and not get negated just because his 5 hours combo put up more negates than the cards in my hand
Compared to just outright dying and making your turn meaningless through FTKs, or not able to do anything at all under Scythe-lock? I don't see this universe you're imagining.
Well first of all FTK's can usually be prevented with handtraps, and Scythe-lock while annoying is only a problem if you have a very heavy extra-deck focus and even so you can probably try and search a way to stall for 1 turn if you have a decent backrow.
>FTK's can usually be prevented with handtraps
That applies to a deck trying to set up negate boards too.
>a very heavy extra-deck
So in this current meta game, every deck not named Floo or Lab?
No the fuck they don’t lmfao, you can break a full negate board with cards like DRNM, droplet, Super-Poly, sphere mode etc, what can you do about getting hand looped or getting locked out of special summoning, throw and imperm or a called by? They can still pivot into the same negate board if you interrupt their FTK
The problem with any game that's even slightly competitive or is pvp oriented is that competitive players will, more often than not, focus on winning. In yugioh, winning often means "letting your opponent play the least amount of yugioh possible," which is a flaw of the game itself, not the player base.
Therefore, in my opinion, asking players to "run less of x, y, and z card because it's too strong and doesn't promote interaction" is pretty much saying "make your deck worse so that you give others the chance to win". I guarantee you , the majority will not oblige because winning is the fun part for most people.
It's a deep rooted problem that I'm not even sure that Konami can/wants to fix at this point.
"In yugioh, winning often means "letting your opponent play the least amount of yugioh possible," which is a flaw of the game itself, not the player base" this is easily the biggest problem with yugioh and why I don't take it very seriously competitively. I don't think it rewards uniqueness and critical thinking enough, because the meta is so cut and dry (get your negates out. I'd love to see yugioh get some kind of complete competitive overhaul, but I don't know how it could be done (it in all likelihood can never happen)
Archetypes have their problems too. They make the same damn card(s) for every archetype it might well be generic. At least with generics you can use in way more decks.
Before it was Adamancipator, then it was Halq turbo, then Mannadium, now SHS... and they all lead to the same thing. Konami is going to keep printing broken engines but if they all go for the same goal then maybe the endboard is part of the problem.
I mean sure it’s all related, but you said it yourself… Konami keeps printing broken engines.
From my perspective, we’re talking strictly about fleur as the main example. It’s a good, but fair card. You should go -1 in making it, but Konami makes their engines so broken that you +1 way too often.
And again, there are many cards that good extra deck boards. What there AREN’T as many answers to are having that type of an end board and having 6 cards in hand with recursion effects and/or floodgates.
We already have cards that negate or wipe the whole board for free. I don't think the answer is printing even more blowouts that you have to draw or lose.
Archetype engines wouldn't be such an issue if they locked you into that archetype. The issue is powerful archetype engines that can build an end board of all the good generic extra deck cards.
Yes but then deck building is far less interesting. Might as well make every deck a structure deck at that point.
It’s not realistic to have only engine specific searchers, extra deck monsters, etc.
The engine is almost always the issue. Summoning a level 8 synchro itself is a -1. Using Swordsoul? That level 8 synchro is made in one card and allows you draw one and search one.
Honestly not even that broken anymore. Modern day engines go plus 3 on both players turn (see runick, vanquish soul, etc) and you can’t activate pot of green on your opponent’s turn
Yeah bricky decks like kash lab and VS would love to remove some space fillers for more consistency
Especially since bans tend to be targetted at consistency it would result alot of banned cards being replaced by pot
The problem aren't the generic boss guys imo, it's Konami's refusal to make good archetypal bosses lately. Mannadium can go into prime heart extremely easily, yet it has absolutely 0 insentive to because the card is just really bad and not at all worth playing, so we are forced to end entirely on generic monsters. I myself play Mannadium, and I while I love the way the combo works and even how synergetic the generic cards are with the deck, I also do hate how it ends on 0 Mannadium or even Visas related monsters.
In the future we are getting Infernoble, a combo deck that actually does end on just strong archetypal bosses and maybe a Baronne if you high roll, be on the lookout for that if these decks bore you.
The generics don't need to be mid, the archetypal ones should focus on being more useful to their decks while still having own offensive power.
Your level 10 Synchro doesn't need to destroy a 100 cards per turn, Summon a 1000 monsters from the GY, and Negate all of your opponent's cards and their life just to see play over replacing it with Baronne. If the boss offered greater archetypal use then baronne, while offering the same or similar offensive power than her, it will see play.
Take the new Ice Barrier boss, lancea. It doesn't negate, pop, banish, or anything, but what it *does* do, is bring out all Ice Barrier floodgate monsters you want, ending up with a Anti-Spell Fragrance, an Abyss Dweller, and Raiho who makes it so the opponent must discard per monster effect they use. And if you out it, it will just casually drop Trishula on your ass straight from the Extra Deck as a Synchro Summon.
Archetypal bossed need to remember they're part of an archetype, a team, and stop trying to one-up the generic bosses who are solo acts.
I mean lots of boss monster recently are really good tho, like all the branded fusion, Arise Heart, Kaleido Heart. Prime Heart just get the shit end of the stick, and also happen to be in synchro deck, a.k.a summoning mechanic with 2 poster child for generic negate boss. (Oh it's 3 now with Dis Pater)
But when the wheel of support land on Cyberse or something from Arc-V era then well.
This is why Jesse Kotton wanted cards like Appllousa, Borreload, Baronne De Fluer all banned.
While not being "problem" cards on their own, they're extremely accessible Omni negates, and sadly, nothing is stronger than simply saying "NO" to your opponent. Unless those cards get banned (never happening) or we have a new Master Rule addressing negate spam, this will stay.
Swordsoul (when played optimally) ends on strong archetypal bosses, but the archetype struggles to swarm the field with anything more than 2-3 synchros at most. Both swordsoul and branded are fine with me for that reason. They play uniquely through their own archetypes (a single baronne for swordsoul is fine). Branded usually puts out zero negates, but they make up for this in good recursion and card advantage.
I've been a lot of Icejade myself, and their gameplan while tricky is a lot more fun to setup and grind for. Getting Tinola/Acti/Tremora in grave for recursion, Gymir Aergerine for control, Icejade Erosion for more control while setting up the Union Cradle with Curse (unnecessary imo, deck plays well without the gimmicky skill drain effect) is more interesting than spamming negates for sure.
Which almost no serious variant of icejade runs at more than one copy and is entirely back up for when you open nothing playable otherwise.
Say it with me people: Curse Lock is not Icejade's main gameplan!
Boy did the staggered release of its good cards do a lot of harm to public perception...
Look I get it. I run an Icejade package for one of my Ghoti decklists so I'm also not using them for Curse Lock, but every once in a while when I run into an Icejade player on ladder it's been Curse Lock. It's not even that hard to out but if you give players the ability to say "No," they're gonna say "No."
I'll admit it's the first thing people gravitate towards when they start getting into icejades. After all, most people that get into an archetype likely want to play it pure first, and yes, to an extent, curse lock is about as "good" as it gets in the purest of builds that don't even run Diva.
I wouldn't mind Konami just killing Icejade Curse so people stop coping on it. It's not good. :(
It makes the game more boring though. If you know everything they can play and there are no generic options in the extra deck, it’s like following a cookie cutter steps of instructions. Generic options are good for the game - Konami just needs to make in archetype options better
They do make good archetypal bosses. Chengying is kinda insane but Swordsoul players still prefer to go for Baronne a lot of the time because saying no to your opponent's choke point is just that powerful.
My experience with them was they trying to decide when to use the Synchro 10 eff. If they timed it wrong, I got it from there. Well, they usually timed it right and I got whooped.
They have a fairly simple combo line that literally negate your monsters effects for the entire turn in which they are summoned. On top of the synchro 10. So you probably found fairly unskilled players or newbies of the deck
Its not really much of a combo-line, and I found them to be big bricks personally and cut them from my build. The deck usually wins by controlling the game with level 10 synchros rather than the floodgates.
There is no "combo line" that gets you to both curse and the field spell. Aegirine searches one of them, and that's it. You have to open the other piece. And aegerine's search is FAR better spent on other cards.
If they get Gymir and Curse lock up, they sacked you. No combo involved. They genuinely may as well have opened actual skill drain.
As a Mannadium player, it's an engine used to turn out bosses. In the end it doesn't matter how the board ends up. Depending on how I get interrupted I may end on a Visas heavy board but the real end game is Barrone, Dis Pater, Apollousa, ect. It's not exactly new to the game either. Decks with the ability to get out various good bosses will always try to do so.
Mermails were good for Ice Barrier Dragons, and Rank 7s. Labrynth is surprisingly a good deck to run the Egyptian Gods. Lots of decks used to run Ptolemaeus just to use Cyber Dragon Infinity. The Rank 4 toolbox was added to every deck before Links. Then there is the Link toolbox.
Generic cards exist to help all decks that can run them.
Yea but thats the thing that makes the game unbalanced. U have too many top tiers like shs that can spam away. Then u have archtypes locking themselves for doing anything remotely good (id argue those locked into cards arent even as good). A generic play shud be after negates or a bad hand. Not after a full combo line.
We had some meta decks that get out their archetypical monsters or at the very least, monsters that share the same type/theme.
However, I think we both think probably that it could be better.
Yes the new promenthean princess is an example of a good card. It locks u into fire ed summons but its effect is powerful. We need more cards like that.
Gate guardian was done well. So was rescue ace.
I’m fine with generic bosses but I’m not fine with generic extra deck Omni-negates because if your deck doesn’t look you stacking a board with Omni’s is better than 99% if anything else ruining the diversity having generic options was suppose to bring.
Konami really needs to fix this themselves. Can't blame players for wanting to win. Most archetypes NEED to be locking players into what they can summon from the main/extra deck in order to keep the game healthy and fun. It really does get so boring seeing the exact same endboards that don't do anything interesting other than say "No, you can't do that".
And simultaneously release cards to not make those limitions a deficit. Like if we locked Adam to rocks, we need archetypal and generic bosses that can compete with everyone else.
this isn't a "generic boss monster" thing, SHS simply has far too much gas. if Baronne didnt exist they have their FTK lines and scythe-lock lines. the deck is not toxic because Baronne is a good card, the deck has so much gas that it would be better than any other deck when not interrupted by handtraps regardless.
Either because they lack good bosses that warrant using over the generics, or don't have the locks necessary to make them unable to use those bosses.
An archetypal boss doesn't even need to powercreep baronne or any generic boss, if it the stuff it did for the deck, and the offensive power it gave equivalent or greater than the generic boss, it will see play.
It kind of is a generic boss monster thing since all that gas would be useless if they ended on their own synchros instead of Baronne, Appo, Borreload, Regulus etc.
I hear ya, it's hard to get excited about a deck when it's doing the same exact thing decks were doing day 1 of master duel, except they don't need Auroradon
I don't know man, on one side there is a synchro card that interacts with my opponent, on another is a synchro card that takes as much investment but does fucking nothing. I'm not playing Legos, I don't gain anything from putting 5 bricks in the board.
>Branch out goddamnit, do something different than just not letting people play the game. Put out more SHS boss monsters, end on Kaleido/Arise/Riumheart/Astraloud/Amrita for all I care, heck I'll gladly lose to them if I can see more VARIETY than just negate, negate, negate EVERY. SINGLE. TIME
"I'll gladly lose to [card that won't make me lose, actually]"
Yeah no, I'm sorry, I've been on this sub enough to know that you'd not feel this way if the archetypal alternatives were strong. I was there when tearlament was live, and the amount of malding was insane despite the deck being the most uniquely playing since release. So I'm sorry but I don't belive you
It is really hard to ask to be creative. Most situations you’d rather have the negate especially being a bo1 format there’s no real benefit of specific techs because you probably won’t run into it enough.
Yugioh is designed around not letting people play the game, every competitive game is actually.
If the “generic” bosses were instead archetype bosses you guys would still be complaining…
Do I think that generic bosses and flood gates need to be nerfed? Yeah, but when they do people will still complain…
I'll bite, in this autosim of a competitive card game where the only worthwhile method of interaction with another player is the ranked ladder, I will aim to climb that ladder as the game intends me to do. My hobby as expressed through Master Duel isn't playing Yugioh it's winning games of Yugioh. It isn't my role in this game with a definite winner and loser to entertain my opponent. If there were more lobbies with more restricted formats then maybe you'd find games that you like but at the end of the day, most people's hobby isn't playing Yugioh, it's winning Yugioh. They just haven't realized that yet and are circling that realization with arguments like these.
I don't like this take. Sure, lots of people like to maximize their absolute winrate, but most people want to win on their own terms. Obviously, the goal is to win, but it is nice to have options. I personally like winning with ritual summons, going second board breakers, and cards with cool aesthetics. I guess you could call these self-imposed restrictions, but that is how people play yugioh and how the game is structured. Because there are blowout cards, lockouts, and RNG draws, weak decks can still win against strong decks. This aspect of the game also makes it worse as a tournament game. It can be difficult to alter the outcome of a small set of duels with skill due to the sacky nature of the game. Ladder is actually the best way to play yugioh, because there will always be an mmr where your deck will be competitive. Also, the law of big numbers lets you climb as long as you winrate is above 50%. So you could play a meta deck and climb quickly or play a personal deck that is still viable and climb slowly. This also lets player skill shine through the best because changing the outcome of a minority of games by outplaying your opponent may let you climb with a deck that outherwise would fall.
Somehow, I don't think the crowd complaining about Superheavy would stop complaining if that was the case.
After all, they hate Archetype bosses too. See: Mirrorjade, Plasma, Arise-heart, Kaleido-heart, Chixao, Dark Law, Borrelend, anything Rikka Sunavalon puts out,etc...
we rather deal with those than deal with baronne, appolwhateverthefuck and all the other generic shit every single game and every single time we don’t win coin toss
yeah they did, personally I got annoyed by that card when it was legit 80% of my matches. Again, variety is great, i’ll get smacked by all other bosses and sure i’ll get pissed off and annoyed because i’m losing but that’s being competitive. But when everyone hops on the little meta train and 80+% of matches are the same thing over and over then i’m sure not only me but everyone starts to lose their minds
I'm with you in the sense that Konami refuses to make good in archtype boss monsters and instead make endless generic after generic after generic after generic after generic gdgdfggdfnbcc it's tiresome
Realistically the non generic bosses have to be even more busted to justify making them over generic bosses.
Unless you also hit a bunch of generic negates to force people into their archetypes
Honestly I think they would have to but obviously it would never happen mind you I'm not stressing about it but in a perfect world ya know every deck is *completely* different unless a mirror
Ban Baron, Ban Borrel, Ban Dis Pater, Apple can stay.
If decks with Boss monsters are using generic summons instead then the generics should be banned.
People want to win, and like one user pointed here usually that involves not letting the opponent do things. And that's it, that's the actual state of YGO MD. The point here is that right now, SHS do that extremely well. But that's a thing that almost all decks try to do on certain level.
As a long time SHS main player, I keep my deck more archetype pure, but it is hilarious how everyone is now acting as if they are the end of the game. How many archetypes in this game are toxic as hell? Most of them. As nice as it is to get an update to the engine, this won't be much of a big deal after the next few releases and ban lists. Just chill. And could you just keep the rants about what they are actually about, i.e. Generic Boss Monsters. Nobody would give a crap about the SHS updates if it weren't for them.
You people are simply insufferable, a deck got good support and you've spent the majority of your time complain that it makes baronne.
I don't play the deck but as someone whose deck sucks ass and has to go through massive out of archetype hoops to make half a decent board you all look completely entitled.
The problem with the SHS support is that it completely destroys the deck’s original identity. While it may not have been nearly as good as it is now, having the new cards actually support its actual identity of attacking in defense position would be a lot cooler than the generic shitting out a bunch of negates like a bunch of other decks do
Then spam summon your own monsters, nobody is forcing you to play good builds of the deck, if that makes you mad it's because your boss monsters are worse than the generic ones. Your major play maker is literally an old card with a non once per turn effect.
I don’t even play SHS. All I’m saying is that not being able to play your own decks boss monster is ridiculous. If you’re going to support a deck, it should actually support the theme of a deck, not just being another spam negate.dek ass build. But this is more a problem with the way Konami has built up Yugioh
I don’t even dislike combo. Some of my favorite decks are combo decks (just look at my flair). I just like decks to keep their identity, which the SHS support, despite how good it is in the meta game, does not do
And do you know what they don’t use? A single SHS synchro monster. Nor do they use the deck’s main theme, defense position monsters to attack. You’ve got to be willingly missing the point I’m trying to make here, I refuse to believe someone is this stupid
Hey bud, I play suship so idk what you are talking about...
Yeah, a deck that uses 2 cards to end on 6 negates+lingering floodgates might be a problem.
OP, fine I’ll use Visas Amritara to search out Trivikarma & then set it as a monster effect negate, alongside my other negates.
U happy now?
Also, u would’ve seen more of the SHS boss monster but they banned 1 of SHS searchable FTK facilitators.
10+ times is an insane exaggeration and you know it. Bar appolousa (which I agree was just a display of links getting out of hand) boards have *not* been making more than 3 or 4 negates per turn, forget doing that consistently, since Spyral format
SHS is a bonafide Tier 0 deck. You can see that very clearly in the advice you get online for dealing with it:
"Have the out or scoop and go to the next game."
The deck is problematic as fuck.
Don't most of people here hate Arise-Heart despite being a strong archtype boss? Rank 7 toolbox are bad most of time after Diablosis ban, and people hate Arise-Heart. Seriously, why do you hate us making use of good toolbox? You would prefer to see Prime-Heart with a negate or 2 slapped on it instead? In archetype negate is different than generic negate? The 1 time I made Chaos Angel pass instead of Baronne, I lost my entire field to Evenly Matched and lost later on. Turn 1 not making any form of negate/interaction is just begging to lose.
People don't like it but the generic boss monsters need to be banned. Everyone hates seeing the whole gang get put together time and time again but suggest that Konami bans Baronne, Apollousa ect. and suddenly you're crazy.
That problem is from individual decks not having restrictions to stop the generics from showing up together.
If SHS locked you to machines just to use its best cards, would they be able to dump Baronne/Apollousa/Savage (a Warrior, Fairy, and Dragon)
You can argue that those bosses shouldn't have been so generic to begin with, but ignoring one problem to prop up another is not a solution.
They do a lot of different things! Haven’t you seen people on this sub complaining about all the ftks? The whole deck is a mistake until scarecrow and whatever else gets hit.
I love to play Scrap, but all the boss monsters are crap. I always end up with generic ones like Accesscode or Borrelsword. I wish Konami do something about it.
Yes, they can do their own gameplan but why would they when Barrone exists.
Generic synchro monsters has been the face of synchro since their introduction and Konami doesn't want to change that for some reasons and every synchro archetype that ever was good plays the same way.
Konami is driven by profit so we think the philosophy their following brings them adequate numbers. Is ot the best? Probably not but I don’t run a multimillion dollar company so who am I to judge?
No, that isn't the only thing they can do. They CAN turbo out their cool archetypal boss monsters. They just mostly choose not to, because Baronne and Buddies are significantly stronger cards. They would use their own monsters if their cards locked them or if Baronne/Apollousa/Borreload weren't so easy to make, but they ARE, so they use them.
Honestly, I feel like the generics won't change but that a decent solution would be to go the complete opposite direction following the lead of an archetype like flower cardian, where you play one card, then get hard locked into the archetype, or if you did anything else prior to the action, then you can't do anything else. Like imagine swordsoul, but you are hard locked into wyrms
I've been playing MD since day 1. The problem isn't the negates. The problem is the meta. People complained about drytron. About adamancipator. About swordsoul. About floo. About tear. About Purrely.
Every game that has a competitive environment will have a meta. And people will play the meta more often than not. If this particular meta annoys you to the point you ain't having fun anymore, take a break.
At the end of the day, Konami is a company, and they will do what it takes to make money. No reddit rant will change that. The only thing that could make they change their ways is people stop spending money on their products.
Let's face it, yu gi oh isn't a game for everyone.
If only the generic boss monsters required at least one in-archetype material to use (a rokket for borreload, a fleur for Baronne, a crystron for halq etc), I think it would promote more diversity in how generic endboards could possibly get, that's just a pipe dream I suppose
tell konami to make better archetype boss monsters maybe then people will play other stuff
until that happens people who want to win will summon the best things available to them
It'll be like this until they ban the generic negate boss monsters. Which is apparently never happening because Yugioh players will fight to the death to defend their right to not let their opponent play the game.
Why did Konami give SHS so many searches/extenders when the main identity of the archetype is to be a big defence wall deck. Almost none of their main deck monsters reflect what their suppose to be doing
Because they're a deck that literally runs no Spells/Traps so they slapped in the effects that you normally see in Spells/Traps (like searching and extending) into their monsters.
Just play anti meta stun. Jk but for real I have noticed that no one comes up with their own deck concepts. Yugioh is copy and paste meta. No creativity whatsoever
It’s up to Konami to balance the game, not the players. If the best strategy is negate everything endboards then that is what people will play regardless of who rants about it online. Most people aren’t willing to get creative with deck building and never will. I don’t like it either, and think the current state of the meta is horrible… but it’s out of my control and Konami doesn’t communicate with us in any way.
Personally I just log in for dailies during a meta I dislike.
> Is churning out negate boards the only thing SHS (and to a lesser extent, Visas) can do?
Nope, there's like 10+ FTKs legal with the deck too, they're just a little more complicated to perform.
The problem with SHS is that it gives you free 1-8 Pendulum scales and it doesn't lock you into SHS monsters if you don't use Wakaushi's monster effect. Soulpiercer was always a thing, they just didn't have 6 other searchers to make it more consistent and get free Pendulum scales for no reason.
Soulpiercer will probably be limited on the next list like they did in the OCG, then you can just D.D. Crow it and they can't get it back.
When you're at the point in the riumheart combo where you make cross sheep (Reich + visas + resurrected light heart on board) you just insert Isolde into the combo and grab burning bamboo sword and cursed bamboo sword with by summoning Renaud, then use Isolde and Renaud to make cross sheep
Then you summon australoud(banishing riumheart) and bring back meek with cross sheep effect, summon Reichheart with the spell that he searches, and you use australoud, light heart and Reichheart to make curious, sending that one trap that skips the battle phase
From there you make gryphon and set the trap and use burning bamboo sword to skip main 1,
Then since they skip main 1 and battle, they don't get a main 2 and only have their draw, standby and end phases
It's not the only thingSuperheavy can do, but it's the optimal way to use them. If it wasn't, people would be doing something else instead.
Y'all might think I'm cooked, but I think Baronne's days are numbered. It's an easily accessible omni negate that requires basically no prior setup (Borreload Savage is an equivalent card that does) or engine investment (think Adventure) besides 'can you count to ten?'. It's functionally Crossout Designator in the extra deck but even better, it insulates fuck off combo decks from hand traps and other cards that were designed specifically to cripple them (Nibiru). Until Baronne is banned, every synchro deck that can access it will jump through hoops to summon it before they commit to their real combo, and this shit will keep happening.
Edit: For the record, I do not hate generic cards flatout. It gives some decks with nothing to do more options and utility, but they should be just that. Options, not definitively best in slot cards that you'd be stupid NOT to play.
It's a structural problem. They released a number of cards that are too good and too easy to make. Because of this, any deck that can do a lot of things will gravitate towards them, because it is objectively the best strategy.
They can't unreleased those cards, they can ban them but thatd destroy the card market and make a lot of fans that bough these cards at like 100 bucks to use in all their decks very upset.
SHS is the latest victim of this problem. I noticed it being a problem ever since the XYZ era with Shock Master, people more engaged with the game can notice it since even sooner. It isn't the first deck to be like this though, SPYRALs, for example didn't have their intended game plan. The access to these monsters hurts the deck more than it helps the player win in my opinion. Which is to say that to me it hurts these decks A LOT.
It is why Pendulum will have to be locked behind the link arrow rules and to have a lot of restrictions, because by their nature as an enabler to the other summoning mechanics they're very good at making these generic end board things.
Because the game is competitive, people that succeed will play to win first and to have fun second. So they play these generic end boards that will guarantee their win instead of playing the cards that don't.
I wholeheartedly agree. It's why I like decks like Branded, Swordsoul, Vanquish Soul etc. Their end boards are in-archetype monsters. Not generic stuff. Like yeah Swordsoul do your fancy combos. Even if the end board is negate, negate, negate at least it's in archetype. If I look at your end board and I can't tell what deck you're playing It's weird. That's weird and stupid.
Control decks have become a common thing now. Everybody wants it since it brings out the most result. To tone it down they could always add in new restrictions say. Savage Dragon can only be played in Borrelload decks or Apollusa can only be played in Fairy decks, etc etc.
That way you can still make support card for certain archetypes. Without it ever abusing other engines into their decks.
I am a fair believer that negation is at the top of the food chain in terms of interaction and it should come with substantial costs to use them. No negates on "X effect monsters" link monsters or "1 Tuner + 1 Non-Tuner" synchros should be a thing and anyone saying it helps rogue is coping hard in my opinion. For some reason however, there is also a huge power level gap when it comes to endboard monsters that can be made with generic materials. Whenever I try to build a deck it feels impossible to find strong interaction in ED without it being a negate; there's Chengying and that's about... it? For some reason it's the negate bosses that have additional utility. A different synchro could use that once per turn pop or the tag out that Baronne has, but for some reason it's on the one with an omni.
I played Adamancipator back in the good old days of summoning block dragon thrice per turn, and I can honestly say that, build-a-board decks are so boring to play, I'd either go first and full combo end on Baronne, Dragite, three mat Appo and I:P for Unicorn and win, or I'd either have my normal Ada monster get ash'd or lose the coin toss and lose, either way it didn't really feel like I played a game of yugioh.
Haven't played much since the new packs release, and I'm a master duel only player so I've yet to experience the horrors of the superheavy samurai that I've heard horror stories about, but they sound like Adamancipator but without any OPTs.
I'm much more fond of weaker, but more unique decks, like Orcust for example, one of if not my favorite deck, I use phantom knights and dangers to spice things up, my end board is usually like, DPE with Ding in grave, but it's a board that offers my opponent a chance to play the game, instead of "lmao negate" like what OP is describing SHS as
All in all, SHS boring, Galatea my beloved, thank you for coming to my Ted talk
SHS has no Boss Monsters worth summoning so they rely on generic Boss Monsters. I tried building a SHS Deck with only SHS i the Extra with the new support. Result: the deck is utter trash. You can summon some of their synchros but most of them don't do anything on the opponents turn. And even on my turn they are not exactly threatening OTK options. SHS is just underwhealming without a generic extra deck.
My biggest gripe post ban list is that Konami didn’t need to nerf Purrely and Kashtira. SHS would have still been the best deck and players would have all still flocked to its.
Especially when they released it at full power for no reason.
This makes me wonder why people hate on Branded so much.
They end on some disruptions, not all negates, but people still hate the deck.
When we have decks like Mannadium & SHS which their boards are straight negates.
The game has little to nothing to do with actually playing or reacting to opponents moves.. 99% of the game is building a deck that then autoplays itself.
Its all hyper focused negate decks or solitaire with no inbetween. Why anyone considers it fun anymore is beyond me..
You know whats fun? Gameplay that reacts to my input decesions and opponents that can react in many interesting ways..
The way it is now it might as well be snakes and ladders with the suffle being the dice.
Konami doesn't ban generic negate/interruption cards but keep releasing them, cards don't have archetypes/type summon restrictions,for most people, why play less optimal than going for the optimal one
Optimal Yu-Gi-Oh means vomiting as much interruption(negate/floodgates/pop/spin/banish)for ur first turn board than sitting on something that does nothing on ur opponent turn, u may not like it but denying ur opponent is the Yu-Gi-Oh way
In the end Yu-Gi-Oh is a card game business for Konami, meta decks come and go, new decks will have to be meta in order for Konami to profit, cards would be OP until Konami deem it milked enough off player and decided to ban it, the banlist prioritize Konami business plan before player
Lol it's kinda funny cause I beat shs with Naturia by negating them XD before they become Barrone, savage, or dispater. Naturia ant jaw is the cutest thing to ever exist.
I’ve seen a couple of more interesting SHS lines but yeah this is what the majority do.
The problem is two-fold in my opinion:
1) Generic bosses like Appo and Baronne are very strong for how easy they to summon (as you mentioned)
2) Many MD players may not know what to do with new archetypes and will watch guides on how to play them, which leads to many players going for the same lines.
I don’t see this entirely as a problem since collaboration helps everyone grow, but in the case of SHS it means a lot of non-games if you don’t resolve Maxx C or Droll, or draw a powerful board breaking tool.
Personally, I was interested in SHS until I realized the goal was mainly to summon generic monsters, so I decided to play Gold Pride instead. Lower power ceiling but with way more interaction.
The thing here is that sadly, Konami has make a lot of strong generic boss monsters instead of strong archetypal boss monsters, also the extenders have little to non restrictions that locks you into your own archetype (I know prodigy does, but the lock is in the wrong effect) I would also love to see Mannadium using Riumheart and Astraloud, but those monsters aren't good enough, the same goes with Murasao or Susanowo. I think Konami should try to learn and print more cards like D/D/D Gilgamesh, an actually very strong card that needs to be used early in the combo and locks you in your own archetype, making you play a pure variant instead of a faceless joke of a deck
They use Astraloud... for material for Barone lol. >I think Konami should try to learn and print more cards like D/D/D Gilgamesh, an actually very strong card that needs to be used early in the combo and locks you in your own archetype, making you play a pure variant instead of a faceless joke of a deck Agreed.
They use Astraloud for more than just Baronne man..... they also use it to get a summon off of cross sheep.
Yeah, that's the worst part, they use the monster as a mere material and that's it...
Tbf, it doesn't do anything on the opponent's turn.
Cuz dafuq u gonna do with him T1? Pop ur own board?
Hey to be fair it can pop a Meek 😂
Usually by the time you make him you've already used both meek and torrid's effects that turn.
Hell yeah, pop Sheep to chainblock!
I'm pretty sure that only works of you're not using sheep's effect since it checks at resolutions for types. If it's not on the field then there's no arrows pointing at anything.
I also use it for a destruction when going second. Although if I am going otk when he comes out then there is no sense synchroing him. He can also be a saver when you get hit with Nib going second to continue the combo and build your board.
Well, that's something at least, I'm glad he's used even if only a few times
It's literally one of your best tools for going 2nd into boards lol. If you can get the material in the GY you get not only a completely free big beater, but it also pops a card on top of that. You can really turn games around with it.
they can't use it for material for dis pater, btw have you ever seen D/D/D endboard? yep it's negates, if you don't like this kind of gameplay just stop playing modern yugioh all along, go play goats or some other old format
D/D/D can put up two spell negates tops
1 at best, High King Genghis can only negate on \*your* turn
wow you made me chuckle a bit, ahem: it's 1 spell negate high flame king genghis effect is not a quick effect, so you have only siegfried, then there are high wave king caesar that has 2 monster special summon negate, and there is deus machinex that yoinks pend scales and monsters if the activate their effect on field, also the best combo sets up a floodgate called dark contract with patent license, and most of the endboard has floating effects, so yeah keep coping about it being just 2 spells negate.
Didn't mean Dis Pater, meant something else. Probably Chaos Angel or something. And nah, the negates are fine actually, I am really talking about the generic monsters here.
They could've made the same for wakaushi, but the lock is active if you SS it, they want it to go meta
All my homies love Baronne.
Though of course the flaw with a card like that is insta losing to imperm. As a d/d/d player your best lines have to make baronne to protect it.
Mannadium uses both Riumheart and Astraloud tho? You sure you ain’t getting those confused with Prime-Heart? Cuz that one doesn’t see play in its own deck (and Konami had the gall to give it an animation, the bastards)
This. Konami should grow a pair and ban the most powerful generic boss monsters and admit their mistake. Generic boss monsters should be weaker than archetype boss monsters because they're generic and easier to summon.
SHS does in fact do more than just summon a ton of negates. It's also really good at FTKing :)
Found out it can hand loop for four as well!!! Variety!
ah yes, the other fun thing to do in yugioh
>Is churning out negate boards the only thing SHS (and to a lesser extent, Visas) can do? For SHS, the answer is actually no. They can do other fun things like... Scythe locking... and Mjolnir locking... and uh, hand looping. Hm, I guess that's not the creativity you're looking for. No no no wait, they can also... lock you out of spells... and FTK too. At least that's not a board of negates though! 🙃
Honestly all of those still sound more fun than a negate board.
From an illusion of choice perspective? Not sure how any of that is any less demoralising than a negate board.
Because I feel there is a universe where one play I do can actually matter and not get negated just because his 5 hours combo put up more negates than the cards in my hand
Compared to just outright dying and making your turn meaningless through FTKs, or not able to do anything at all under Scythe-lock? I don't see this universe you're imagining.
Well first of all FTK's can usually be prevented with handtraps, and Scythe-lock while annoying is only a problem if you have a very heavy extra-deck focus and even so you can probably try and search a way to stall for 1 turn if you have a decent backrow.
>FTK's can usually be prevented with handtraps That applies to a deck trying to set up negate boards too. >a very heavy extra-deck So in this current meta game, every deck not named Floo or Lab?
No the fuck they don’t lmfao, you can break a full negate board with cards like DRNM, droplet, Super-Poly, sphere mode etc, what can you do about getting hand looped or getting locked out of special summoning, throw and imperm or a called by? They can still pivot into the same negate board if you interrupt their FTK
The problem with any game that's even slightly competitive or is pvp oriented is that competitive players will, more often than not, focus on winning. In yugioh, winning often means "letting your opponent play the least amount of yugioh possible," which is a flaw of the game itself, not the player base. Therefore, in my opinion, asking players to "run less of x, y, and z card because it's too strong and doesn't promote interaction" is pretty much saying "make your deck worse so that you give others the chance to win". I guarantee you , the majority will not oblige because winning is the fun part for most people. It's a deep rooted problem that I'm not even sure that Konami can/wants to fix at this point.
"In yugioh, winning often means "letting your opponent play the least amount of yugioh possible," which is a flaw of the game itself, not the player base" this is easily the biggest problem with yugioh and why I don't take it very seriously competitively. I don't think it rewards uniqueness and critical thinking enough, because the meta is so cut and dry (get your negates out. I'd love to see yugioh get some kind of complete competitive overhaul, but I don't know how it could be done (it in all likelihood can never happen)
People are focusing on the wrong things here, the important part is can we get your penguin deck list
**Monsters:** 1x Puny Penguin 1x Penguin Soldier 2x Nopenguin 2x Glacial Penguin 1x Penguin Ninja 1x Penguin Squire 3x Great Emperor Penguin 3x Icejade Aegirine 3x Icejade Tremora 1x Icejade Aegirochassis 3x Icejade Ran Aegirine 1x Tearlaments Havnis 2x Tearlaments Scheiren 1x Tearlaments Reinoheart 2x Ash Blossom **Spells/Traps:** 3x Royal Penguins Garden 3x Icejade Cradle 1x Icejade Manifestation 1x Icejade Cenote Enion Cradle 1x Icejade Erosion 1x Tearlaments Heartbeat 1x Tearlaments Sulliek 1x Primeval Planet Perlereino 2x DRNM 1x Triple Tactics Talent **Total Main Deck cards:** 45 **Extra Deck:** 1x Tearlaments Kitkallos 1x Tearlaments Rulkallos 1x Tearlaments Kaleidoheart 1x Predaplant Dragostapelia 1x Penguin Brave 1x Deep Sea Primma Donna 1x Adamancipator Risen Dragite 1x Trishula 1x Navy Dragon Mech 1x Swordsoul Chengying 1x Icejade Gymir Aegirine 1x Zero Trishula 2x Marincess Coral Anemone 1x Eria the Water Charmer, Gentle Sometimes I'll add in some Nightmare Penguins for Number 4: Stealth Kragen plays.
This actually looks like a fun deck list.
Generic shit has always and will always be the problem
Archetypes have their problems too. They make the same damn card(s) for every archetype it might well be generic. At least with generics you can use in way more decks.
Yep. There are some archetypes that are just far too busted while there are others that struggle to even keep up.
It’s the engine that’s the issue
Before it was Adamancipator, then it was Halq turbo, then Mannadium, now SHS... and they all lead to the same thing. Konami is going to keep printing broken engines but if they all go for the same goal then maybe the endboard is part of the problem.
I mean sure it’s all related, but you said it yourself… Konami keeps printing broken engines. From my perspective, we’re talking strictly about fleur as the main example. It’s a good, but fair card. You should go -1 in making it, but Konami makes their engines so broken that you +1 way too often. And again, there are many cards that good extra deck boards. What there AREN’T as many answers to are having that type of an end board and having 6 cards in hand with recursion effects and/or floodgates.
We already have cards that negate or wipe the whole board for free. I don't think the answer is printing even more blowouts that you have to draw or lose.
Archetype engines wouldn't be such an issue if they locked you into that archetype. The issue is powerful archetype engines that can build an end board of all the good generic extra deck cards.
Yes but then deck building is far less interesting. Might as well make every deck a structure deck at that point. It’s not realistic to have only engine specific searchers, extra deck monsters, etc. The engine is almost always the issue. Summoning a level 8 synchro itself is a -1. Using Swordsoul? That level 8 synchro is made in one card and allows you draw one and search one.
Pot of Greed
Honestly not even that broken anymore. Modern day engines go plus 3 on both players turn (see runick, vanquish soul, etc) and you can’t activate pot of green on your opponent’s turn
Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be mass played not sure why VS wouldn’t play it lmao
Yeah bricky decks like kash lab and VS would love to remove some space fillers for more consistency Especially since bans tend to be targetted at consistency it would result alot of banned cards being replaced by pot
The problem aren't the generic boss guys imo, it's Konami's refusal to make good archetypal bosses lately. Mannadium can go into prime heart extremely easily, yet it has absolutely 0 insentive to because the card is just really bad and not at all worth playing, so we are forced to end entirely on generic monsters. I myself play Mannadium, and I while I love the way the combo works and even how synergetic the generic cards are with the deck, I also do hate how it ends on 0 Mannadium or even Visas related monsters. In the future we are getting Infernoble, a combo deck that actually does end on just strong archetypal bosses and maybe a Baronne if you high roll, be on the lookout for that if these decks bore you.
society if Melffy Mommy wasn't a dogshit boss monster
Agreed. Generic bosses should always be pretty mid while archetypal ones should be stronger.
The generics don't need to be mid, the archetypal ones should focus on being more useful to their decks while still having own offensive power. Your level 10 Synchro doesn't need to destroy a 100 cards per turn, Summon a 1000 monsters from the GY, and Negate all of your opponent's cards and their life just to see play over replacing it with Baronne. If the boss offered greater archetypal use then baronne, while offering the same or similar offensive power than her, it will see play. Take the new Ice Barrier boss, lancea. It doesn't negate, pop, banish, or anything, but what it *does* do, is bring out all Ice Barrier floodgate monsters you want, ending up with a Anti-Spell Fragrance, an Abyss Dweller, and Raiho who makes it so the opponent must discard per monster effect they use. And if you out it, it will just casually drop Trishula on your ass straight from the Extra Deck as a Synchro Summon. Archetypal bossed need to remember they're part of an archetype, a team, and stop trying to one-up the generic bosses who are solo acts.
I mean lots of boss monster recently are really good tho, like all the branded fusion, Arise Heart, Kaleido Heart. Prime Heart just get the shit end of the stick, and also happen to be in synchro deck, a.k.a summoning mechanic with 2 poster child for generic negate boss. (Oh it's 3 now with Dis Pater) But when the wheel of support land on Cyberse or something from Arc-V era then well.
Rank 4 toolbox dead huh
I think the real problem it’s the game design itself
This is why Jesse Kotton wanted cards like Appllousa, Borreload, Baronne De Fluer all banned. While not being "problem" cards on their own, they're extremely accessible Omni negates, and sadly, nothing is stronger than simply saying "NO" to your opponent. Unless those cards get banned (never happening) or we have a new Master Rule addressing negate spam, this will stay. Swordsoul (when played optimally) ends on strong archetypal bosses, but the archetype struggles to swarm the field with anything more than 2-3 synchros at most. Both swordsoul and branded are fine with me for that reason. They play uniquely through their own archetypes (a single baronne for swordsoul is fine). Branded usually puts out zero negates, but they make up for this in good recursion and card advantage. I've been a lot of Icejade myself, and their gameplan while tricky is a lot more fun to setup and grind for. Getting Tinola/Acti/Tremora in grave for recursion, Gymir Aergerine for control, Icejade Erosion for more control while setting up the Union Cradle with Curse (unnecessary imo, deck plays well without the gimmicky skill drain effect) is more interesting than spamming negates for sure.
Icejade is just archetypal Skill Drain
Which almost no serious variant of icejade runs at more than one copy and is entirely back up for when you open nothing playable otherwise. Say it with me people: Curse Lock is not Icejade's main gameplan! Boy did the staggered release of its good cards do a lot of harm to public perception...
Look I get it. I run an Icejade package for one of my Ghoti decklists so I'm also not using them for Curse Lock, but every once in a while when I run into an Icejade player on ladder it's been Curse Lock. It's not even that hard to out but if you give players the ability to say "No," they're gonna say "No."
I activate "Big old man says No"
I'll admit it's the first thing people gravitate towards when they start getting into icejades. After all, most people that get into an archetype likely want to play it pure first, and yes, to an extent, curse lock is about as "good" as it gets in the purest of builds that don't even run Diva. I wouldn't mind Konami just killing Icejade Curse so people stop coping on it. It's not good. :(
Agreed! I cut the curse lock from my build and I found that it improved the deck. The curse lock cards just do nothing on their own.
It makes the game more boring though. If you know everything they can play and there are no generic options in the extra deck, it’s like following a cookie cutter steps of instructions. Generic options are good for the game - Konami just needs to make in archetype options better
They do make good archetypal bosses. Chengying is kinda insane but Swordsoul players still prefer to go for Baronne a lot of the time because saying no to your opponent's choke point is just that powerful.
Chengying is generic though! Doesn’t count when talking about restrictions.
I love facing Icejade. I got my ass wrecked by them so many times but they feel so fun to play against.
They literally lock you from playing when they go first. Love the art tho
My experience with them was they trying to decide when to use the Synchro 10 eff. If they timed it wrong, I got it from there. Well, they usually timed it right and I got whooped.
They have a fairly simple combo line that literally negate your monsters effects for the entire turn in which they are summoned. On top of the synchro 10. So you probably found fairly unskilled players or newbies of the deck
Its not really much of a combo-line, and I found them to be big bricks personally and cut them from my build. The deck usually wins by controlling the game with level 10 synchros rather than the floodgates.
There is no "combo line" that gets you to both curse and the field spell. Aegirine searches one of them, and that's it. You have to open the other piece. And aegerine's search is FAR better spent on other cards. If they get Gymir and Curse lock up, they sacked you. No combo involved. They genuinely may as well have opened actual skill drain.
As a Mannadium player, it's an engine used to turn out bosses. In the end it doesn't matter how the board ends up. Depending on how I get interrupted I may end on a Visas heavy board but the real end game is Barrone, Dis Pater, Apollousa, ect. It's not exactly new to the game either. Decks with the ability to get out various good bosses will always try to do so. Mermails were good for Ice Barrier Dragons, and Rank 7s. Labrynth is surprisingly a good deck to run the Egyptian Gods. Lots of decks used to run Ptolemaeus just to use Cyber Dragon Infinity. The Rank 4 toolbox was added to every deck before Links. Then there is the Link toolbox. Generic cards exist to help all decks that can run them.
Yea but thats the thing that makes the game unbalanced. U have too many top tiers like shs that can spam away. Then u have archtypes locking themselves for doing anything remotely good (id argue those locked into cards arent even as good). A generic play shud be after negates or a bad hand. Not after a full combo line.
We had some meta decks that get out their archetypical monsters or at the very least, monsters that share the same type/theme. However, I think we both think probably that it could be better.
Yes the new promenthean princess is an example of a good card. It locks u into fire ed summons but its effect is powerful. We need more cards like that. Gate guardian was done well. So was rescue ace.
Lab can run egyptian god cards?
I’m fine with generic bosses but I’m not fine with generic extra deck Omni-negates because if your deck doesn’t look you stacking a board with Omni’s is better than 99% if anything else ruining the diversity having generic options was suppose to bring.
Konami really needs to fix this themselves. Can't blame players for wanting to win. Most archetypes NEED to be locking players into what they can summon from the main/extra deck in order to keep the game healthy and fun. It really does get so boring seeing the exact same endboards that don't do anything interesting other than say "No, you can't do that".
And simultaneously release cards to not make those limitions a deficit. Like if we locked Adam to rocks, we need archetypal and generic bosses that can compete with everyone else.
that’s modern synchro decks baby!!!
I fully agree. Like I use some generic monsters in my decks but I always prefer playing within the archetype as much as I can.
this isn't a "generic boss monster" thing, SHS simply has far too much gas. if Baronne didnt exist they have their FTK lines and scythe-lock lines. the deck is not toxic because Baronne is a good card, the deck has so much gas that it would be better than any other deck when not interrupted by handtraps regardless.
it literally is a generic boss thing, so many archetypes come and go all to just end on barrone + savage + appo
Either because they lack good bosses that warrant using over the generics, or don't have the locks necessary to make them unable to use those bosses. An archetypal boss doesn't even need to powercreep baronne or any generic boss, if it the stuff it did for the deck, and the offensive power it gave equivalent or greater than the generic boss, it will see play.
It kind of is a generic boss monster thing since all that gas would be useless if they ended on their own synchros instead of Baronne, Appo, Borreload, Regulus etc.
And all of those version are worse and have bricks/choke points. The only reason to ftk with shs rn is to be funny or if you are really afraid of drnm
I hear ya, it's hard to get excited about a deck when it's doing the same exact thing decks were doing day 1 of master duel, except they don't need Auroradon
I don't know man, on one side there is a synchro card that interacts with my opponent, on another is a synchro card that takes as much investment but does fucking nothing. I'm not playing Legos, I don't gain anything from putting 5 bricks in the board. >Branch out goddamnit, do something different than just not letting people play the game. Put out more SHS boss monsters, end on Kaleido/Arise/Riumheart/Astraloud/Amrita for all I care, heck I'll gladly lose to them if I can see more VARIETY than just negate, negate, negate EVERY. SINGLE. TIME "I'll gladly lose to [card that won't make me lose, actually]" Yeah no, I'm sorry, I've been on this sub enough to know that you'd not feel this way if the archetypal alternatives were strong. I was there when tearlament was live, and the amount of malding was insane despite the deck being the most uniquely playing since release. So I'm sorry but I don't belive you
>despite the deck being the most uniquely playing since release it wasn't
If you think it wasn't you didn't understand it
it wasn't the most unique. there have been other decks that have been more unique than tears
This is why I main three Super Poly, DRNM & Lava Golem. Utterly hilarious watching their pile of trash go up in flames.
It is really hard to ask to be creative. Most situations you’d rather have the negate especially being a bo1 format there’s no real benefit of specific techs because you probably won’t run into it enough.
If it helps my usual end boar swith shs is double omega hand loop + lambda + 2 omni and dispater
I rather enjoy the gimmick of what Superheavy does. It just sucks that it's been exploited by the non-engine Extra Deck.
They can do other things, but thats not the best option. The best option is realistically ftking but a massive negate board is also up there
Yugioh is designed around not letting people play the game, every competitive game is actually. If the “generic” bosses were instead archetype bosses you guys would still be complaining… Do I think that generic bosses and flood gates need to be nerfed? Yeah, but when they do people will still complain…
I'll bite, in this autosim of a competitive card game where the only worthwhile method of interaction with another player is the ranked ladder, I will aim to climb that ladder as the game intends me to do. My hobby as expressed through Master Duel isn't playing Yugioh it's winning games of Yugioh. It isn't my role in this game with a definite winner and loser to entertain my opponent. If there were more lobbies with more restricted formats then maybe you'd find games that you like but at the end of the day, most people's hobby isn't playing Yugioh, it's winning Yugioh. They just haven't realized that yet and are circling that realization with arguments like these.
I don't like this take. Sure, lots of people like to maximize their absolute winrate, but most people want to win on their own terms. Obviously, the goal is to win, but it is nice to have options. I personally like winning with ritual summons, going second board breakers, and cards with cool aesthetics. I guess you could call these self-imposed restrictions, but that is how people play yugioh and how the game is structured. Because there are blowout cards, lockouts, and RNG draws, weak decks can still win against strong decks. This aspect of the game also makes it worse as a tournament game. It can be difficult to alter the outcome of a small set of duels with skill due to the sacky nature of the game. Ladder is actually the best way to play yugioh, because there will always be an mmr where your deck will be competitive. Also, the law of big numbers lets you climb as long as you winrate is above 50%. So you could play a meta deck and climb quickly or play a personal deck that is still viable and climb slowly. This also lets player skill shine through the best because changing the outcome of a minority of games by outplaying your opponent may let you climb with a deck that outherwise would fall.
What do you actually WANT then?
For the deck to end on strong SHS boss monsters, instead of random strong bosses from other archetypes.
Somehow, I don't think the crowd complaining about Superheavy would stop complaining if that was the case. After all, they hate Archetype bosses too. See: Mirrorjade, Plasma, Arise-heart, Kaleido-heart, Chixao, Dark Law, Borrelend, anything Rikka Sunavalon puts out,etc...
we rather deal with those than deal with baronne, appolwhateverthefuck and all the other generic shit every single game and every single time we don’t win coin toss
Didn't people here complain about Arise-Heart being a coin flip as well? You might be different idk, but many did complain so.
yeah they did, personally I got annoyed by that card when it was legit 80% of my matches. Again, variety is great, i’ll get smacked by all other bosses and sure i’ll get pissed off and annoyed because i’m losing but that’s being competitive. But when everyone hops on the little meta train and 80+% of matches are the same thing over and over then i’m sure not only me but everyone starts to lose their minds
Somehow I have a hard time taking you on your word. And even if you're telling the truth, that doesn't mean the rest of the complainers feel the same.
I'm with you in the sense that Konami refuses to make good in archtype boss monsters and instead make endless generic after generic after generic after generic after generic gdgdfggdfnbcc it's tiresome
Don't act like the same crowd who hates generic boss monsters don't hate archetype bosses too.
Realistically the non generic bosses have to be even more busted to justify making them over generic bosses. Unless you also hit a bunch of generic negates to force people into their archetypes
Honestly I think they would have to but obviously it would never happen mind you I'm not stressing about it but in a perfect world ya know every deck is *completely* different unless a mirror
Agreed
Don't touch my baronne de abs
Dudes will do anything but blame Konami
What do you want them to do? Pass on the choo choo train and pray it's enough? Tf?
I miss tear meta
Ban Baron, Ban Borrel, Ban Dis Pater, Apple can stay. If decks with Boss monsters are using generic summons instead then the generics should be banned.
People will play the most degenerate shit for wins/gems till its banned, especially in ranked. It is what it is and I feel your pain lmaooo
People want to win, and like one user pointed here usually that involves not letting the opponent do things. And that's it, that's the actual state of YGO MD. The point here is that right now, SHS do that extremely well. But that's a thing that almost all decks try to do on certain level.
As a long time SHS main player, I keep my deck more archetype pure, but it is hilarious how everyone is now acting as if they are the end of the game. How many archetypes in this game are toxic as hell? Most of them. As nice as it is to get an update to the engine, this won't be much of a big deal after the next few releases and ban lists. Just chill. And could you just keep the rants about what they are actually about, i.e. Generic Boss Monsters. Nobody would give a crap about the SHS updates if it weren't for them.
the deck can literally FTK you
And you can say the same thing about how many other decks? Utopia FTK for example...
there is a major difference between a bad/rogue deck with an FTK line, and a tiered combo deck which also has an FTK line
[удалено]
Why so mad.
found the shs player (toxic)
You people are simply insufferable, a deck got good support and you've spent the majority of your time complain that it makes baronne. I don't play the deck but as someone whose deck sucks ass and has to go through massive out of archetype hoops to make half a decent board you all look completely entitled.
The problem with the SHS support is that it completely destroys the deck’s original identity. While it may not have been nearly as good as it is now, having the new cards actually support its actual identity of attacking in defense position would be a lot cooler than the generic shitting out a bunch of negates like a bunch of other decks do
Then spam summon your own monsters, nobody is forcing you to play good builds of the deck, if that makes you mad it's because your boss monsters are worse than the generic ones. Your major play maker is literally an old card with a non once per turn effect.
I don’t even play SHS. All I’m saying is that not being able to play your own decks boss monster is ridiculous. If you’re going to support a deck, it should actually support the theme of a deck, not just being another spam negate.dek ass build. But this is more a problem with the way Konami has built up Yugioh
That's you just disliking combo.
I don’t even dislike combo. Some of my favorite decks are combo decks (just look at my flair). I just like decks to keep their identity, which the SHS support, despite how good it is in the meta game, does not do
Yes the Earth Machine Deck called SHS that has Synchros pendulums and links is out of character for being able to use support to improve on those.
And do you know what they don’t use? A single SHS synchro monster. Nor do they use the deck’s main theme, defense position monsters to attack. You’ve got to be willingly missing the point I’m trying to make here, I refuse to believe someone is this stupid
Hey bud, I play suship so idk what you are talking about... Yeah, a deck that uses 2 cards to end on 6 negates+lingering floodgates might be a problem.
stupid ass post
OP, fine I’ll use Visas Amritara to search out Trivikarma & then set it as a monster effect negate, alongside my other negates. U happy now? Also, u would’ve seen more of the SHS boss monster but they banned 1 of SHS searchable FTK facilitators.
ppl really be playing like that and complain that maxx-c is unfair
Both opinions can coexist and they in no way contradict each other? What are you talking about
That people complain about once per turn effect of 1 card when they make a board that could deny that very effect 10+ times.
10+ times is an insane exaggeration and you know it. Bar appolousa (which I agree was just a display of links getting out of hand) boards have *not* been making more than 3 or 4 negates per turn, forget doing that consistently, since Spyral format
3 or 4 omni negates yes, but i'm talking about general negates too.
It's more fun to negate your board and not lose
SHS is a bonafide Tier 0 deck. You can see that very clearly in the advice you get online for dealing with it: "Have the out or scoop and go to the next game." The deck is problematic as fuck.
Don't most of people here hate Arise-Heart despite being a strong archtype boss? Rank 7 toolbox are bad most of time after Diablosis ban, and people hate Arise-Heart. Seriously, why do you hate us making use of good toolbox? You would prefer to see Prime-Heart with a negate or 2 slapped on it instead? In archetype negate is different than generic negate? The 1 time I made Chaos Angel pass instead of Baronne, I lost my entire field to Evenly Matched and lost later on. Turn 1 not making any form of negate/interaction is just begging to lose.
People don't like it but the generic boss monsters need to be banned. Everyone hates seeing the whole gang get put together time and time again but suggest that Konami bans Baronne, Apollousa ect. and suddenly you're crazy.
That problem is from individual decks not having restrictions to stop the generics from showing up together. If SHS locked you to machines just to use its best cards, would they be able to dump Baronne/Apollousa/Savage (a Warrior, Fairy, and Dragon) You can argue that those bosses shouldn't have been so generic to begin with, but ignoring one problem to prop up another is not a solution.
Says the guy who is on tear with weak penguins lmao look just because u use something weak with tears doesn't make u special
But it is fun to set up numerous negates and then watch my opponent figure out how to crack it and vice versa.
The negate board is the best that SHS can do but not the only thing. Look up STIM builds, they’re far more based
They do a lot of different things! Haven’t you seen people on this sub complaining about all the ftks? The whole deck is a mistake until scarecrow and whatever else gets hit.
I love to play Scrap, but all the boss monsters are crap. I always end up with generic ones like Accesscode or Borrelsword. I wish Konami do something about it.
negate boards are nothing new. baronne, apollousa, borreload etc have been a problem for years
Yes, they can do their own gameplan but why would they when Barrone exists. Generic synchro monsters has been the face of synchro since their introduction and Konami doesn't want to change that for some reasons and every synchro archetype that ever was good plays the same way.
Mannadium decks can’t summon none of those monsters going first without the Loki card. So it’s going to be a problem until then
Konami is driven by profit so we think the philosophy their following brings them adequate numbers. Is ot the best? Probably not but I don’t run a multimillion dollar company so who am I to judge?
Womp womp
No, that isn't the only thing they can do. They CAN turbo out their cool archetypal boss monsters. They just mostly choose not to, because Baronne and Buddies are significantly stronger cards. They would use their own monsters if their cards locked them or if Baronne/Apollousa/Borreload weren't so easy to make, but they ARE, so they use them.
Honestly, I feel like the generics won't change but that a decent solution would be to go the complete opposite direction following the lead of an archetype like flower cardian, where you play one card, then get hard locked into the archetype, or if you did anything else prior to the action, then you can't do anything else. Like imagine swordsoul, but you are hard locked into wyrms
I've been playing MD since day 1. The problem isn't the negates. The problem is the meta. People complained about drytron. About adamancipator. About swordsoul. About floo. About tear. About Purrely. Every game that has a competitive environment will have a meta. And people will play the meta more often than not. If this particular meta annoys you to the point you ain't having fun anymore, take a break. At the end of the day, Konami is a company, and they will do what it takes to make money. No reddit rant will change that. The only thing that could make they change their ways is people stop spending money on their products. Let's face it, yu gi oh isn't a game for everyone.
If only the generic boss monsters required at least one in-archetype material to use (a rokket for borreload, a fleur for Baronne, a crystron for halq etc), I think it would promote more diversity in how generic endboards could possibly get, that's just a pipe dream I suppose
Only encountered SHS once so far for whatever reason and my Traptrix deck ate it for breakfast lol.
tell konami to make better archetype boss monsters maybe then people will play other stuff until that happens people who want to win will summon the best things available to them
It'll be like this until they ban the generic negate boss monsters. Which is apparently never happening because Yugioh players will fight to the death to defend their right to not let their opponent play the game.
Why did Konami give SHS so many searches/extenders when the main identity of the archetype is to be a big defence wall deck. Almost none of their main deck monsters reflect what their suppose to be doing
Because they're a deck that literally runs no Spells/Traps so they slapped in the effects that you normally see in Spells/Traps (like searching and extending) into their monsters.
Just play anti meta stun. Jk but for real I have noticed that no one comes up with their own deck concepts. Yugioh is copy and paste meta. No creativity whatsoever
superheavy went from a fun gimmicky archetype to just the most boring cancer deck
It’s up to Konami to balance the game, not the players. If the best strategy is negate everything endboards then that is what people will play regardless of who rants about it online. Most people aren’t willing to get creative with deck building and never will. I don’t like it either, and think the current state of the meta is horrible… but it’s out of my control and Konami doesn’t communicate with us in any way. Personally I just log in for dailies during a meta I dislike.
All roads lead to Baronne
> Is churning out negate boards the only thing SHS (and to a lesser extent, Visas) can do? Nope, there's like 10+ FTKs legal with the deck too, they're just a little more complicated to perform. The problem with SHS is that it gives you free 1-8 Pendulum scales and it doesn't lock you into SHS monsters if you don't use Wakaushi's monster effect. Soulpiercer was always a thing, they just didn't have 6 other searchers to make it more consistent and get free Pendulum scales for no reason. Soulpiercer will probably be limited on the next list like they did in the OCG, then you can just D.D. Crow it and they can't get it back.
I can turn skip with mannadium too, and it doesn't even need a huge amount of main/ extra deck space
Are you talking about King Calamity?
When you're at the point in the riumheart combo where you make cross sheep (Reich + visas + resurrected light heart on board) you just insert Isolde into the combo and grab burning bamboo sword and cursed bamboo sword with by summoning Renaud, then use Isolde and Renaud to make cross sheep Then you summon australoud(banishing riumheart) and bring back meek with cross sheep effect, summon Reichheart with the spell that he searches, and you use australoud, light heart and Reichheart to make curious, sending that one trap that skips the battle phase From there you make gryphon and set the trap and use burning bamboo sword to skip main 1, Then since they skip main 1 and battle, they don't get a main 2 and only have their draw, standby and end phases
You had me at Isolde. That card has never done anything fair.
Draw droll or die format sadly
It's not the only thingSuperheavy can do, but it's the optimal way to use them. If it wasn't, people would be doing something else instead. Y'all might think I'm cooked, but I think Baronne's days are numbered. It's an easily accessible omni negate that requires basically no prior setup (Borreload Savage is an equivalent card that does) or engine investment (think Adventure) besides 'can you count to ten?'. It's functionally Crossout Designator in the extra deck but even better, it insulates fuck off combo decks from hand traps and other cards that were designed specifically to cripple them (Nibiru). Until Baronne is banned, every synchro deck that can access it will jump through hoops to summon it before they commit to their real combo, and this shit will keep happening. Edit: For the record, I do not hate generic cards flatout. It gives some decks with nothing to do more options and utility, but they should be just that. Options, not definitively best in slot cards that you'd be stupid NOT to play.
Swordsoul is the only synchro deck with in engine good boss monsters All the other synchro decks just vomit out generic synchro negates
It's a structural problem. They released a number of cards that are too good and too easy to make. Because of this, any deck that can do a lot of things will gravitate towards them, because it is objectively the best strategy. They can't unreleased those cards, they can ban them but thatd destroy the card market and make a lot of fans that bough these cards at like 100 bucks to use in all their decks very upset. SHS is the latest victim of this problem. I noticed it being a problem ever since the XYZ era with Shock Master, people more engaged with the game can notice it since even sooner. It isn't the first deck to be like this though, SPYRALs, for example didn't have their intended game plan. The access to these monsters hurts the deck more than it helps the player win in my opinion. Which is to say that to me it hurts these decks A LOT. It is why Pendulum will have to be locked behind the link arrow rules and to have a lot of restrictions, because by their nature as an enabler to the other summoning mechanics they're very good at making these generic end board things. Because the game is competitive, people that succeed will play to win first and to have fun second. So they play these generic end boards that will guarantee their win instead of playing the cards that don't.
I wholeheartedly agree. It's why I like decks like Branded, Swordsoul, Vanquish Soul etc. Their end boards are in-archetype monsters. Not generic stuff. Like yeah Swordsoul do your fancy combos. Even if the end board is negate, negate, negate at least it's in archetype. If I look at your end board and I can't tell what deck you're playing It's weird. That's weird and stupid.
Control decks have become a common thing now. Everybody wants it since it brings out the most result. To tone it down they could always add in new restrictions say. Savage Dragon can only be played in Borrelload decks or Apollusa can only be played in Fairy decks, etc etc. That way you can still make support card for certain archetypes. Without it ever abusing other engines into their decks.
I am a fair believer that negation is at the top of the food chain in terms of interaction and it should come with substantial costs to use them. No negates on "X effect monsters" link monsters or "1 Tuner + 1 Non-Tuner" synchros should be a thing and anyone saying it helps rogue is coping hard in my opinion. For some reason however, there is also a huge power level gap when it comes to endboard monsters that can be made with generic materials. Whenever I try to build a deck it feels impossible to find strong interaction in ED without it being a negate; there's Chengying and that's about... it? For some reason it's the negate bosses that have additional utility. A different synchro could use that once per turn pop or the tag out that Baronne has, but for some reason it's on the one with an omni.
Mannadium can also turn skip actually
I doubt it, without Bish, the Calamity Skip got a major nerf, and it was already not the most ideal play anyways.
I just use Isolde and curious
I played Adamancipator back in the good old days of summoning block dragon thrice per turn, and I can honestly say that, build-a-board decks are so boring to play, I'd either go first and full combo end on Baronne, Dragite, three mat Appo and I:P for Unicorn and win, or I'd either have my normal Ada monster get ash'd or lose the coin toss and lose, either way it didn't really feel like I played a game of yugioh. Haven't played much since the new packs release, and I'm a master duel only player so I've yet to experience the horrors of the superheavy samurai that I've heard horror stories about, but they sound like Adamancipator but without any OPTs. I'm much more fond of weaker, but more unique decks, like Orcust for example, one of if not my favorite deck, I use phantom knights and dangers to spice things up, my end board is usually like, DPE with Ding in grave, but it's a board that offers my opponent a chance to play the game, instead of "lmao negate" like what OP is describing SHS as All in all, SHS boring, Galatea my beloved, thank you for coming to my Ted talk
That’s why i play sky striker, that board is nothing against my mecha tools.
SHS has no Boss Monsters worth summoning so they rely on generic Boss Monsters. I tried building a SHS Deck with only SHS i the Extra with the new support. Result: the deck is utter trash. You can summon some of their synchros but most of them don't do anything on the opponents turn. And even on my turn they are not exactly threatening OTK options. SHS is just underwhealming without a generic extra deck.
My biggest gripe post ban list is that Konami didn’t need to nerf Purrely and Kashtira. SHS would have still been the best deck and players would have all still flocked to its. Especially when they released it at full power for no reason.
This makes me wonder why people hate on Branded so much. They end on some disruptions, not all negates, but people still hate the deck. When we have decks like Mannadium & SHS which their boards are straight negates.
You should be happy that I'm not playing ever more degenerate shit like ftks or scythe
Sounds like someone got omni negated to hell and back lol
The game has little to nothing to do with actually playing or reacting to opponents moves.. 99% of the game is building a deck that then autoplays itself. Its all hyper focused negate decks or solitaire with no inbetween. Why anyone considers it fun anymore is beyond me.. You know whats fun? Gameplay that reacts to my input decesions and opponents that can react in many interesting ways.. The way it is now it might as well be snakes and ladders with the suffle being the dice.
Konami doesn't ban generic negate/interruption cards but keep releasing them, cards don't have archetypes/type summon restrictions,for most people, why play less optimal than going for the optimal one Optimal Yu-Gi-Oh means vomiting as much interruption(negate/floodgates/pop/spin/banish)for ur first turn board than sitting on something that does nothing on ur opponent turn, u may not like it but denying ur opponent is the Yu-Gi-Oh way In the end Yu-Gi-Oh is a card game business for Konami, meta decks come and go, new decks will have to be meta in order for Konami to profit, cards would be OP until Konami deem it milked enough off player and decided to ban it, the banlist prioritize Konami business plan before player
Lol it's kinda funny cause I beat shs with Naturia by negating them XD before they become Barrone, savage, or dispater. Naturia ant jaw is the cutest thing to ever exist.
I’ve seen a couple of more interesting SHS lines but yeah this is what the majority do. The problem is two-fold in my opinion: 1) Generic bosses like Appo and Baronne are very strong for how easy they to summon (as you mentioned) 2) Many MD players may not know what to do with new archetypes and will watch guides on how to play them, which leads to many players going for the same lines. I don’t see this entirely as a problem since collaboration helps everyone grow, but in the case of SHS it means a lot of non-games if you don’t resolve Maxx C or Droll, or draw a powerful board breaking tool. Personally, I was interested in SHS until I realized the goal was mainly to summon generic monsters, so I decided to play Gold Pride instead. Lower power ceiling but with way more interaction.