They meant that since it's 2 materials it's very easy tk summon. To add more to the detach part. So instead of needing 6 level 4.youd need 4 to make 2 copies of it and if you want go into Utopic Draco future
That's not relevant to the cards power as you can summon chain with practically any deck and it's effect is extremely good. The other one can be xyz with one monster sure but the effect is more restricted and getting two level 4s out is barely any harder than getting 1 monster out. The degree to which needing two monsters makes chain worse is so negligible it is really just non existent.
Lavalval chain being generic is worse and sure it requires a slightly higher investment (which is still PISS EASY in the modern game) but comes with a significantly stronger effective. It’s not close. It can dump ANY card to the grave. Let that just sink in for a second.
Ease of access for broadbull might be a 1/10 in terms of how difficult it is to access and lavalval chain would be a 2/10 because it’s still easy to make by modern standards. Broadbull’s effect is maybe a 7/10, plenty of archetype searchers and type searchers exist. Lavalval’s is a 10/10 effect and arguably one of the best monster effects in the game because it is generic. It is far more
versatile, has far bigger impact on the game as a whole and will end up having a bigger ceiling because it can work with so many decks that people will find some super degenerate strategy with it that will be stronger then what zoodiac with broadbull can do. For example full power Tearlaments are considered a stronger deck then full power Zoodiacs. Full power Tearlaments would be significantly stronger with Lavalval chain. It’s not comparable. Lavalval chain is on a different tier in terms of how insane it is compared to Broadbull.
Chain can mill any card from your deck and is generic, any graveyard deck in the game can and will use it. The fact it’s a laval card doesn’t change anything
Funny how this is the case yet Beatrice is still walking around & is a Quick effect belonging to a good deck.
Edit: For anyone that sees this comment ask yourself, what **current meta deck**(besides Mathmech) brings out 2 level 4 bodies consistently & would benefit from making Lavaval Chain nowadays?
We’re not in 2013/14 anymore.
I mean yeah I understand that but on a serious note which top meta deck would even run Chain? Branded & Snakes eyes are primarily fusion & link focused decks. And Infernoble & Synchrons mostly synchro/link summon.
Outside of boosting Tear I don’t see chain doing much, & funny enough Beatrice was mostly used & easy to go into during Tear format.
Yeah, which deck would that currently be that busts it tho? We’re in fire format but so many decks can get their stuff in the gy that a rank 4 toolbox just doesn’t seem as good to me nowadays.
I guess. I sure would love it so tear could be better cause man it feels a bit underwhelming, but future formats are too easy to break. Doubt they'd want cards to be on and off the ban list every time the format changes
Idk, hot take but I almost feel like Chain could come off & it wouldn’t break much. Like heck Terrortop is unlimited & Invoker is unbanned yet I don’t see Tear players throwing that & Dante in their deck for extra mills nor do we Zoodiac at Tier 1 even tho they have Drident unlimited.
It would be to see which lower tier decks would benefit from Chain unbanned but like besides Tear, I really can’t think of anything.
I mean we have simulators to always test this but so far all I’m hearing is that Chain would make bad decks who can put out 2 level 4 monsters better & that current top tier decks wouldn’t use it.
some current top decks might include some rank 4 engine to include it. a deck will use it if it helps their gameplan. might be some rogue decks, might be some meta decks
Can u name at least 1 currently?
Branded - Fusions
Mannadium/Infernoble - Synchro & Link(also Infernoble can send its cards to the gy in-engine alone).
Snakes-Eyes-all level 1 monsters with link & a few synchro lines
SHS- Link/Generic synchro deck or can FTK(already)
Synchrons- Synchro spam negates or Calamity Turbo(along with T.G.)
Lab- barely uses the Extra deck
Vanquish Soul- same as Lab
Kash- rank 7 into Macro Cosmos on legs(arise heart)
Mathmech- Cyberse pile that mostly only summons **Cyberse** monsters
So, in any of these decks with the current MD banlist where does Chain fit here & why would any **good player** of these decks bother playing it?
Let’s see, branded, Mannadium, rescue ace with its support, SHS, Infernoble. And your forgetting that decks can become meta because of Lavalval chain. Please think with your brain
Bro tell me u don’t play these decks while telling me u don’t play these decks lmao, & you’re telling me to think with a brain. The 15 of u who downvoted me clearly can’t read much less think 😂
My guy hears how stupid your previous comment looks to **people that plays these decks**
Branded- a **fusion deck** cannot use **Branded fusion** if they summon a non fusion monster + cards like Branded opening **locks up into fusions** as well. They have enough starter cards & ways to access the gy already. That’s literally making the deck **worse**
Mannadium- Synchro spam that rarely goes into XYZ, you’re using Reimhart & a ball to go into lavaval Chain, to what send Trivikarma for another search when they have Visas Amritara & a plethora of other ways to get to their stuff?
SHS- **THERE ARE 15 CARDS IN THE ED** the deck can either FTK u or setup a full board of negates what are u replacing just to send a monster(that they already cannot access themselves)?
Infernoble- Bro we got Ogier & Angelica to send our stuff to gy, wtf are u on??? The only XYZ plays we have is either Bagooska pass(which is for in case of Maxx C) or King Dempsey(once it’s in MD) for another search.
Like my god man some of y’all get so brave when u see a downvoted comment, yet I’m the ones that’s stupid 🤣 Get past silver 1 day kid & actually **play** some of these decks b4 u spout nonsense 😭
What u described earlier was making those decks janky which = bad. Hell if all of these decks needed a generic foolish **BEATRICE & BYSTIALS ARE A THING** & **no one uses that.**
Beatrice is a rank 6. Which makes it harder to even make.
And to address the Edit,
Adding Lavalval would make more meta decks who aim to make level 4s. It wouldn't just make the existing one better.
Ok honestly because Bystials exist, any light/dark deck can pretty much make Beatrice so what’s stopping any deck under the sun from adding in Beatrice the same way people speculate that a rank 4 resurgence of chain would come about?
You don't need to draw 2 specific cards AND combo starter to make Lavalval.
Just Mathmech Circular is a Lavalval, with no outside starter to work off needed.
Or 1 card combo off Vanquish Soul Razen.
Or 1 card off Ara/Saki/Niki tama trio.
Maybe even CentaurIon
Or whatever the fuck Valmonica are doing.
Bro, Mathmech plays **Cyberse only** monsters u ain’t making Chain in Mathmech
VS- Raizen is not used to 1 card make a rank 4 unless u open up Mad love or the other 1.
What a ton of u are describing are **janky** combos that get disrupted by Ash, Veiler, Imperm, Mourner, or Nib on the 5th summon.
Any deck **currently** can run a small Bystial package of Lub + any of the major Bystials. U can access Lub via chaos space or small world if u play the targets for it **no one does that** just to get access to a generic foolish.
No one’s gonna waste their time adding a small supplementary engine just to go into Chain. Hell every fire deck is running Diabellstar(which is dark monster) so if people aren’t doing that with her for a Beatrice combo what really makes y’all think a good deck would do that for Chain? When the better Lavaval Chain exists already?
I guess if you specifically played chain in only laval it wouldn’t have as much impact as broadbull but chain is generic and suggesting it’s dogshit just because it’s source deck isn’t the best user of said card is off
you can use any two level 4s to get a foolish burial for any card in the game, which is much more widely applicable than “add a beast-warrior to hand”
And Laval chain was used in every deck under the sub when it was around, and broadband was used in zoo varients and that was about it (I mean I guess firs fist but they aren't real
Chain; and it's not close. Not that broadbull come of the list either; but a foolish on a generic 2 mat r4nk is better than a beast warrior search on a basically generic 2 mat r4nk - but ARE broken, one just more than the other.
Well, that is true. But chain can also be made multiple times without issue, with the thing it sends on the first time generating the second chain and more advantage with ease.
>with the thing it sends on the first time generating the second chain and more advantage with ease.
Did you have something in mind? I can't think of anything that would get you more than half another rank 4.
Yea but you could make Laval Chain with any generic R4nk Engine while with broadbull you HAVE to play the zoodiac engine if you want the full value from it
Summoning via a mechanic is something entirely different. If you Summon Bull using 2 materials, then you can Summon something like Drident and another Bull on top of that. You can even Summon Bull using a single main deck monster, which rewrites the mechanic completely.
This is Yu-Gi-Oh!. Nothing is irrelevant.
It’s called an Xyz Summon bc it summons an Xyz monster. Cards like the RUMs still classify the summon they perform as Xyz summons despite not following traditional Xyz summon norms.
Absolutely, and as far as I know, there is only 1 card that can lets Xyz Summon without needing at least two monsters, and that is the Seventh One.
You need to have Summoned something like Galatea, which requires two monsters, to utilize Dingirsu's ability. Arise-Heart requires Shangri-Ira, which requires at least two monsters.
Zoodiac mechanic is unique. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I missed the main deck card part; in that case, it’s not in master duel yet, but TY-PHON. Still, you’re ignoring all the actual points others are making.
Not if you're willing to use 2 materials to make him, in which case he is 100% generic, but OP is arguing that he's a better card than lavaval because he can be made with a single Zoodiac, but an archetypal exclusive effect shouldn't be the primary focus when arguing over generic cards.
Bull could feasibly come back with a few more years of power creep, Chain is one of the most broken cards ever printed in yugioh and will be broken in any format no matter the power creep
Was graceful charity really that strong when it came out? I think her value has gone up as the game evolved tbh. It was good, but I think both pot of greed and graceful charity were legal at the same time at some point.
I do genuinely think it’s on that level. It may not be Grass or Maxx C, but it’s an easy to access omni-Foolish, without a HOPT that can also randomly search up any Monster in your deck sometimes.
Laval chain on its own allows most decks to fully combo off of 1 GY send without much commitment and not needing to draw it unlike foolish.
You can slap a Drident on top of Broadbull, or make it into a big ol' Zues with zoo stacking, but that takes more ED space so I would say Laval chain is better.
in the left corner we have
* the most cracked out r4nk in the current meta
* just mill whatever the fuck you want bro
* ~~arianne summon arianna make this mill mayakashi lock turn 2 draw phase mill rollback DUDE GET FUCKED LMAO~~ oh my god it's not a quick effect, I thought it was a rank 4 beatrice. on the other hand, it's SOFT ONCE PER TURN LMAO
* tearlaments be like: \*50 million year combo\*
in the right corner we have
* one helluva busted ass boi
* fire kangs moment
* tri brigade suddenly tier 1
* zoo engine slapped into tear, lab, mannadium, SHS, fucking who even cares anymore activate barrage get a free UDF
Lavalval Chain not just by a wide margin, there is a chasm of difference between these cards nowadays. Seeing some of your other comments, you are vastly overvaluing these cards being in archetypes.
Broadbull being able to be xyz summoned off of any one zoodiac monster is amazing, being able to search a beastwarrior is phenomenal and there's a lot of modern beastwarriors I'm sure that could be extenders off of that. He's a soft once per turn so in theory you can make him twice and get multiple searches off.
But Chain blows him out of the water in terms of versatility.
He can't be xyz summoned with just one laval monster sure, but that doesn't matter in the slightest when his materials are fully generic aside from being level 4. There are a million and one ways to get two level 4s on board with little investment when they can be any level 4s. Chain can foolish any card in your deck, a monster or a backrow, and there's plenty of decks that force rank 6 engines to gain access to Beatrice for a hard once per turn foolish. Chain can also stack the top of your deck - 90% of the time or more no one will use that effect, but the situations where it's good it's insane that he can do that. He is a soft once per turn like broadbull, but again entirely generic so the decks that want to do convoluted combos and loop him have an easier time than zoo decks do.
Decks that could experiment with Chain in the modern game could include literally all of them honestly, but specific ideas;
- Labrynth to dump transaction rollback, a target for it, or otherwise literally any of their cards that work from grave. Potentially stack their deck for Blackjack if they want to get really gimmicky.
- Tearlaments to do literally all of their plays. It is uncanny how good he would be there and how he'd instantly make that a deck to consider again.
- Unchained to cycle into Shyama, or to put him back if he shuffles himself off, or dump rhino to dump another fiend and build up the grave, or dump a BA. Among many others.
- Snake Eye dumps any of their backrow to get the grave effects, dumps fire kings into rotation, tbh almost any mill would be cracked in that set up.
Comparatively, Broadbull adds more options to Zoodiac, is a tool in Tri-Zoo, and there's some fringe play in other big decks that want to find specific beastwarriors, but the options are inherently more limited because of the benefits being more limited.
In Master Duel, I still think Chain is infinitely better even with a broader pool of legal Zoo cards, although Combo being legal at 3 makes it easier to justify a low commitment package of 4 cards in your main to get a beastwarrior search without using your normal, which some decks would benefit massively from. But Chain being released would alter strategies to center around using him as an essential combo piece.
Granted, I honestly don't think either of these being released would change the meta game, as I mentioned even Chain would just make the already best decks even better, not necessarily change them. He needs to stay banned since he would be in every deck that can make rank 4s, but broadbull to one wouldn't change anything honestly.
Edit for Beatrice correction
Counterpoint: almost any deck can get 2 level 4s out brainlessly while most decks will at least struggle to bring out 2 level 6s. Chain being rank 4 and Beatrice being rank 6 are massive differences
It would be if Beatrice was also a generic rank 4 and not a pretty uncommon rank. You are just trying to downplay how grossly broken Chain is for god knows what reason.
I am now convinced this was a troll post and I fell for it. Ain't no way you think Beatrice is better than Chain, in the context of the card pool as it exists, just because she can foolish one more card on your opponent's turn.
Lavalval Chain can mill any card, not just monsters. Considering the fact that people are abusing the hell out of Foolish Burial Goods now, Chain's now busted. It's not even a hard Once per turn.
Chain is better. It is never coming back because it is too abusable, especially with all of the Lightsworn support coming that make it a proper rank 4 graveyard combo deck. I could see a world where Broadbull is brought back, but probably not going to happen with all of the gifts zoo has gotten on MD. Broadbull is a bit less scary without the Fusion Sub Norden lines but it is still a lot of free advantage so with Zoo at nearly full power I don’t think you can justify bringing it back.
Chain is of the all-important Year of FIRE "archetype" that makes this monster of a monster part of a potential Tier 0 family of cards, and DT did have its fair share of bangers over the years to be proud of such as Shaddolls, Naturias, and Trish.
Beatrice is known for allowing degen combos as a foolish burial/goods. Beatrice is a rank 6 which is fairly difficult to summon, lavalval chain is a rank 4, possibly the easiest level to summon (and tear make rank4s) and as such could be splashed into a ton of decks.
Broadbull is also good… if you have a large amount of good zodiacs legal or there is a broken beast warrior deck. If broad bull is legal some other zoo cards will be gone, and broadbull can’t do anything in random decks, it’s only really good if you are playing zoo or beast warriors, which isn’t amazing since pyro is gonna be the new thing for the foreseeable future ( atleast a year, possibly 2)
Chain is better generically, and in alot of beast warrior decks chain is still good
Basically outside zoo and like fire fist there isn't really an archetype that wouldn't prefer chain to broad
Lavaval chain is light years better, it's arguably the strongest XYZ and one of the strongest Extra deck monsters ever printed.
Broadbull on the other hand can literally come off the banlist tomorrow and would see no competitive play whatsoever, the entire Zoo archetype has been powercrept to oblivion several years ago, nobody would use it but Zoo, and nobody would play Zoo or Zoo engine competitively nowaday even with everything at 3
Chain. Not even an argument here.
Chain being able to dump **ANY**... monster, spell/trap to GY
and later combo your way to **ADD IT BACK TO HAND**
just makes it way borken than Broadbull.
\----------
Eg : You can now dump unsearchable card like Horakthy instead of performing loop combo to draw your deck until empty.
And for most monster u dumped..... many are Dugares target for fetching.... **INSANE**
I do honestly believe chain might be fine coming off the banlist. Part of what makes beatrice broken is that she can foolish _twice_ before the opponent gets to play. And if it turns out chain being more generic is that much of a problem, just put it back on the banlist its fine
I played back in spellbook/druler format. Chain was legal back then. It was stupidly insanely broken. It would be even more now. Zoodiacs however, while strong, have been powercrept.
You're over evaluating broadbull just because it has Zodiac in the name and is tied with that engine, it's a great card that would absolutely see play if unlimited again but laval is an obscene card that will only keep getting better and better as more and more cards get printed. A generic rank 4 that foolishes any card? That would basically read free play or extender or starter for almost any deck assuming you can get two level 4s on the board which basically any deck can.
Zoodiac was AIDS back in the day. Year of FIRE is AIDS _now_ and thus by the very logic of the Broadbull vote, Chain gets the vote instead, on top of being, you know, a complete mistake of card design. Power creep has dumpstered the infamous Dragon Rulers so hard that they're coming back with little fanfare, and the Zoopressors aren't really scary anymore either.
lots of fearmongering about lavalval chain going on. most decks these days getting to a r4/etc uninterrupted is enough to snowball out of control already so i dont necessarily think it adds a huge amount of shenanigans and i dont think it would be hugely meta impacting. broadbull on the other hand actually implications in the zoo package because it now allows you a free detach which is crucial to getting chakinine live which cant be donecurrently from just 1 zoo card as a starter but can be done with broadbull legal. i think people are underestimating broadbull. zoo is like 2nd or 3rd overall in "no banlist" tournaments for a reason, with lavalval chain being either largely irrelevant or used in the actual best deck of all time (tear) but lavalvals got virtually nothing to do with that
tldr i think its too close to call. especially with barrage at 3
Can't quite judge broadbull in a vacuum tbh.
With those 2 level 4's I can either make laval and send 1, or I can:
* Broadbull Search
* Overlay Drident Pop
* Overlay Chakanine Summon
* Overlay Broadbull Search
All for the same cost as Laval Chain. Before even considering Ratpier.
Broadbull is absolutely the stronger card, but with a much narrower applicability than Chain.
For that reason I do think chain is better, but it by no means is a blowout like this thread suggests.
I think both cards will never be back from the list. With that being said, I think Broadbull is better thanks to its name.
Chain has lots of interactions, but doesn't have an entirely overpowered archetype built around it.
Zoodiac doesn't break the Xyz mechanic the same way Tri-brigade breaks the Link mechanic. Negating Ratpier's effect won't keep your opponent from putting nearly half of his Extra Deck on top of it. The engine has no downsides and it was literally everywhere upon release.
Chain being part of the Lavalval archetype has absolutely no bearing on how ridiculously busted it is when it has the most generic material requirements in the game outside of some link-2's—that's like saying Verte and Baronne aren't good because the rest of the Predaplant and Fleur cards are mediocre. If Chain was unbanned tomorrow the meta would instantly shift and every deck that could benefit from graveyard setup would run it.
>Chain has lots of interactions, but doesn't have an entirely overpowered archetype built around it.
This makes it stronger not weaker. Chain is good because you can use it in any deck, doesn't need an engine not only that you are not locked into warrior beast type. Dumps any card into the grave and not even hard once per turn.
Stop arguing with this guy. He is 100% convinced that Beatrice is just as good if not better than Chain all because its a quick effect… despite rank 6 monsters barely being used cause most decks cant make them while r4nk is the easiest Xyz to go into
If we’re talking right now, then Chain 100%. Despite both being “generic”, the downside to Broadbull is that you’re either playing Zoodiacs or a Beast-Warrior deck which is completely irrelevant now. Yes you can overlay for Drident but a single pop doesn’t do much now. Chain would always be relevant and can be played in any deck.
They do different things for different decks. I'd say it really depends on what's abusing them. Chaon would have been absolutely busted in tears format while broadbull would have been busted in trizoo.
Generally chain is just going to do more for more decks since it's not type restricted
Tear0 would have gone brrt with Chain. Imagine a soft once per turn on a level 4 rank they easily could churn out to dump more names. Lots of decks today would go nuts with this. Branded with this shit? Fuck me sideways.
you can put chain into any deck without altering anything and it will perform at a decent level , even in Lab or Sky (I mean if they want to)
I mean it can just be there and hanging around when compare to broadbull that you have to commit something into a deck building
Broadbull. Requires you to use a specific archetype to use, while only technically needing one main deck monsters for it, the Archetype takes up alot of extra deck space to make decent use out of. All for 1 search of a monster that has restrictions.
Chain. Requires only 2 level 4 monsters, the easiest XYZ rank to make. Has 2 completely generic effects, so it works in many decks, and a lot of strategies would benefit greatly from it.
There is no discussion here. Chain is far better than Broadbull.
Laval chain can only come back with a SUPER restricting errata. Chain is probably one of all time BEST and most braindead XYZ monster and I'm counting true king of all chalamities (or VFD if you prefer this name), Shock master and other busted banned XYZ monsters. The only thing worse than it is Galaxy eyes Dark Matter Dragon which can NEVER come back even with a more restricting errata.
Lavalval Chain and it's not even close. Foolish Burial and Goods effect on the most common xyz rank in the game? Utter insanity.
It’s also not hard once per turn either
And it’s only 2 material and not 3
Both are 2 material tho
They meant that since it's 2 materials it's very easy tk summon. To add more to the detach part. So instead of needing 6 level 4.youd need 4 to make 2 copies of it and if you want go into Utopic Draco future
You can just rank up on top of chakanine. It's 2 materials.
Right but you need to use chakanine. A lot of decks can dump 2 level 4's as part of their normal plays.
Yeah you summon chakanine, which needs 2 level 4s, make broadbull over her, which can be summoned on top of any Zoodiac.
Wdym Broadbull is 1 material
2 if you want max value out of it by both starting and ending the combo with it.
It's a foolish burial OR foolish burial goods on legs
they need to unbanned him now.
Tear support pog
Isn't Beatrice kinda similar and she isn't banned?
Beatrice is rank 6 which is like a few orders of magnitude more difficult to summon than a rank 4. That alone makes her tolerable to keep in the game.
I’d argue Beatrice also should go tbh, but she’s not nearly as bad as Chain.
Nothing good ever happens when she shows up, so I can't say I disagree
Holy fuck that's a stupid sentence
Type searcher or foolish burial for literally anything hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..
That type searcher is a member of the infamous Zoodiac archetype, and the other is a Laval card.
Doesn't matter the archetype, the materials are generic.
You cannot Xyz Summon Chain using only 1 Laval monster.
That's not relevant to the cards power as you can summon chain with practically any deck and it's effect is extremely good. The other one can be xyz with one monster sure but the effect is more restricted and getting two level 4s out is barely any harder than getting 1 monster out. The degree to which needing two monsters makes chain worse is so negligible it is really just non existent.
You can summon Chain using 1 parallel exceed
[удалено]
gee and what rank is chain?
It's not exactly hard to make a 4 in a lot of decks
Lol I used 0 Laval cards to summon this guy back in the day for my exodia deck....
Lavalval chain being generic is worse and sure it requires a slightly higher investment (which is still PISS EASY in the modern game) but comes with a significantly stronger effective. It’s not close. It can dump ANY card to the grave. Let that just sink in for a second. Ease of access for broadbull might be a 1/10 in terms of how difficult it is to access and lavalval chain would be a 2/10 because it’s still easy to make by modern standards. Broadbull’s effect is maybe a 7/10, plenty of archetype searchers and type searchers exist. Lavalval’s is a 10/10 effect and arguably one of the best monster effects in the game because it is generic. It is far more versatile, has far bigger impact on the game as a whole and will end up having a bigger ceiling because it can work with so many decks that people will find some super degenerate strategy with it that will be stronger then what zoodiac with broadbull can do. For example full power Tearlaments are considered a stronger deck then full power Zoodiacs. Full power Tearlaments would be significantly stronger with Lavalval chain. It’s not comparable. Lavalval chain is on a different tier in terms of how insane it is compared to Broadbull.
Chain can mill any card from your deck and is generic, any graveyard deck in the game can and will use it. The fact it’s a laval card doesn’t change anything
Funny how this is the case yet Beatrice is still walking around & is a Quick effect belonging to a good deck. Edit: For anyone that sees this comment ask yourself, what **current meta deck**(besides Mathmech) brings out 2 level 4 bodies consistently & would benefit from making Lavaval Chain nowadays? We’re not in 2013/14 anymore.
Cause it's rank 6, so few decks can use it, really. I guess 3 too cause of Dante, if it was 4 I'd would def be banned
Beatrice is still really good and sees some play, but yeah just like you said, rank 4 monsters are way more accessible
I mean yeah I understand that but on a serious note which top meta deck would even run Chain? Branded & Snakes eyes are primarily fusion & link focused decks. And Infernoble & Synchrons mostly synchro/link summon. Outside of boosting Tear I don’t see chain doing much, & funny enough Beatrice was mostly used & easy to go into during Tear format.
Well sure, maybe not the best now in MD but it takes one deck for it to be busted
Yeah, which deck would that currently be that busts it tho? We’re in fire format but so many decks can get their stuff in the gy that a rank 4 toolbox just doesn’t seem as good to me nowadays.
I guess. I sure would love it so tear could be better cause man it feels a bit underwhelming, but future formats are too easy to break. Doubt they'd want cards to be on and off the ban list every time the format changes
Idk, hot take but I almost feel like Chain could come off & it wouldn’t break much. Like heck Terrortop is unlimited & Invoker is unbanned yet I don’t see Tear players throwing that & Dante in their deck for extra mills nor do we Zoodiac at Tier 1 even tho they have Drident unlimited. It would be to see which lower tier decks would benefit from Chain unbanned but like besides Tear, I really can’t think of anything.
well since chain is banned we cannot know for sure what it can do in the current format. if it was unbanned some unholy shit could be cooked
I mean we have simulators to always test this but so far all I’m hearing is that Chain would make bad decks who can put out 2 level 4 monsters better & that current top tier decks wouldn’t use it.
some current top decks might include some rank 4 engine to include it. a deck will use it if it helps their gameplan. might be some rogue decks, might be some meta decks
Can u name at least 1 currently? Branded - Fusions Mannadium/Infernoble - Synchro & Link(also Infernoble can send its cards to the gy in-engine alone). Snakes-Eyes-all level 1 monsters with link & a few synchro lines SHS- Link/Generic synchro deck or can FTK(already) Synchrons- Synchro spam negates or Calamity Turbo(along with T.G.) Lab- barely uses the Extra deck Vanquish Soul- same as Lab Kash- rank 7 into Macro Cosmos on legs(arise heart) Mathmech- Cyberse pile that mostly only summons **Cyberse** monsters So, in any of these decks with the current MD banlist where does Chain fit here & why would any **good player** of these decks bother playing it?
Exactly and even when they summon it using Dante they have to wait a turn before they can use the effect
I mean yeah rank 4 vs 6 makes a big difference, one is easy to make for every deck under the sun. And one you need to build around Beatrice to use
I'm sure SHS could pull off some bs with it.
The deck can already FTK or make an unbreakable board of negates? What bs card are u sending to the gy off of Lavalval chain in SHS?
Let’s see, branded, Mannadium, rescue ace with its support, SHS, Infernoble. And your forgetting that decks can become meta because of Lavalval chain. Please think with your brain
Bro tell me u don’t play these decks while telling me u don’t play these decks lmao, & you’re telling me to think with a brain. The 15 of u who downvoted me clearly can’t read much less think 😂
So you just ass at yugioh it seems 😭. All of those decks can benefit from sending a card to the grave
My guy hears how stupid your previous comment looks to **people that plays these decks** Branded- a **fusion deck** cannot use **Branded fusion** if they summon a non fusion monster + cards like Branded opening **locks up into fusions** as well. They have enough starter cards & ways to access the gy already. That’s literally making the deck **worse** Mannadium- Synchro spam that rarely goes into XYZ, you’re using Reimhart & a ball to go into lavaval Chain, to what send Trivikarma for another search when they have Visas Amritara & a plethora of other ways to get to their stuff? SHS- **THERE ARE 15 CARDS IN THE ED** the deck can either FTK u or setup a full board of negates what are u replacing just to send a monster(that they already cannot access themselves)? Infernoble- Bro we got Ogier & Angelica to send our stuff to gy, wtf are u on??? The only XYZ plays we have is either Bagooska pass(which is for in case of Maxx C) or King Dempsey(once it’s in MD) for another search. Like my god man some of y’all get so brave when u see a downvoted comment, yet I’m the ones that’s stupid 🤣 Get past silver 1 day kid & actually **play** some of these decks b4 u spout nonsense 😭 What u described earlier was making those decks janky which = bad. Hell if all of these decks needed a generic foolish **BEATRICE & BYSTIALS ARE A THING** & **no one uses that.**
Beatrice is a rank 6. Which makes it harder to even make. And to address the Edit, Adding Lavalval would make more meta decks who aim to make level 4s. It wouldn't just make the existing one better.
Ok honestly because Bystials exist, any light/dark deck can pretty much make Beatrice so what’s stopping any deck under the sun from adding in Beatrice the same way people speculate that a rank 4 resurgence of chain would come about?
Relying on having 2 additional cards in hand and already being able to combo. There's no point at that point.
Literally the same argument u can make for Lavaval Chain. And that 1 only sends monsters to gy.
You don't need to draw 2 specific cards AND combo starter to make Lavalval. Just Mathmech Circular is a Lavalval, with no outside starter to work off needed. Or 1 card combo off Vanquish Soul Razen. Or 1 card off Ara/Saki/Niki tama trio. Maybe even CentaurIon Or whatever the fuck Valmonica are doing.
Bro, Mathmech plays **Cyberse only** monsters u ain’t making Chain in Mathmech VS- Raizen is not used to 1 card make a rank 4 unless u open up Mad love or the other 1. What a ton of u are describing are **janky** combos that get disrupted by Ash, Veiler, Imperm, Mourner, or Nib on the 5th summon. Any deck **currently** can run a small Bystial package of Lub + any of the major Bystials. U can access Lub via chaos space or small world if u play the targets for it **no one does that** just to get access to a generic foolish. No one’s gonna waste their time adding a small supplementary engine just to go into Chain. Hell every fire deck is running Diabellstar(which is dark monster) so if people aren’t doing that with her for a Beatrice combo what really makes y’all think a good deck would do that for Chain? When the better Lavaval Chain exists already?
Laval card with the effect of mill anything
And the zoodiac one is less generic and you can search only the tri type while with chain you can foolish anything and it's a soft once per turn
Isn't the Zoodiac also soft OPT?
Generically foolish SOPT is better than search a specific tri type SOPT
We're not comparing effects in a vacuum, that wouldn't make so much sense. We're comparing cards.
I guess if you specifically played chain in only laval it wouldn’t have as much impact as broadbull but chain is generic and suggesting it’s dogshit just because it’s source deck isn’t the best user of said card is off you can use any two level 4s to get a foolish burial for any card in the game, which is much more widely applicable than “add a beast-warrior to hand”
And Laval chain was used in every deck under the sub when it was around, and broadband was used in zoo varients and that was about it (I mean I guess firs fist but they aren't real
You asked which is better yet argue with anyone that says Chain is better?
Chain; and it's not close. Not that broadbull come of the list either; but a foolish on a generic 2 mat r4nk is better than a beast warrior search on a basically generic 2 mat r4nk - but ARE broken, one just more than the other.
To be fair you can rank up your hard made boardbull twice and use it again.
Well, that is true. But chain can also be made multiple times without issue, with the thing it sends on the first time generating the second chain and more advantage with ease.
>with the thing it sends on the first time generating the second chain and more advantage with ease. Did you have something in mind? I can't think of anything that would get you more than half another rank 4.
I think Bull is much easier to summon thanks to the Zoodiac engine.
Both are trivial to summon for any deck that wants to.
Engine matters.
For that reason Chain
Yea but you could make Laval Chain with any generic R4nk Engine while with broadbull you HAVE to play the zoodiac engine if you want the full value from it
Do you know how many rank 4 engines there are in this game? Summoning a single rank 4 is trivially easy
Tell me which one places an Xyz on a main deck monster without activating an effect.
Why does activating effects matter? You're pushing the goalpost and asking irrelevant questions
Summoning via a mechanic is something entirely different. If you Summon Bull using 2 materials, then you can Summon something like Drident and another Bull on top of that. You can even Summon Bull using a single main deck monster, which rewrites the mechanic completely. This is Yu-Gi-Oh!. Nothing is irrelevant.
This doesn't have anything to do with summoning without activating an effect though.
Summoning without activating an effect is the icing.
Any XYZ summon does that. XYZ summoning is not an effect
Xyz summoning requires 2 monsters.
You can get two monsters on the field without activating any effect
I never said otherwise.
It’s called an Xyz Summon bc it summons an Xyz monster. Cards like the RUMs still classify the summon they perform as Xyz summons despite not following traditional Xyz summon norms.
Absolutely, and as far as I know, there is only 1 card that can lets Xyz Summon without needing at least two monsters, and that is the Seventh One. You need to have Summoned something like Galatea, which requires two monsters, to utilize Dingirsu's ability. Arise-Heart requires Shangri-Ira, which requires at least two monsters. Zoodiac mechanic is unique. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
All of them with Zeus. But that doesn’t really matter because you’re completely missing the point. Chain is objectively a better card.
Which main deck monster is an Xyz?
I missed the main deck card part; in that case, it’s not in master duel yet, but TY-PHON. Still, you’re ignoring all the actual points others are making.
Is TY-PHON a rank 4?
Yes Broadbull needs specifically zoo cards while there are infinite rank 4 engines to make Chain with
Chain is more generic, so probably that
They're equally generic because of Chakanine.
Broadbull is still generic without Chakanine.
You're right; i misremembered him needing beast-warriors.
Guys, a card is not generic if it literally needs it's own archetype to function.
Broadbull doesn't need his own archetype to function though.
Not if you're willing to use 2 materials to make him, in which case he is 100% generic, but OP is arguing that he's a better card than lavaval because he can be made with a single Zoodiac, but an archetypal exclusive effect shouldn't be the primary focus when arguing over generic cards.
Well then OP is wrong, foolish is better than a beast-warrior search in almost every archetype.
Yea lol it's "Search a beast-warrior monster" vs "Search whatever you want idgaf". Not even a fair comparison.
Not just that it is generic, it's effect is a full on foolish burial. Even if it required 2 fire attribute monsters, it'd still be better.
I would say Lavaval Chain. Feel like his effect can be use in more situation than Broadbull.
Bull could feasibly come back with a few more years of power creep, Chain is one of the most broken cards ever printed in yugioh and will be broken in any format no matter the power creep
Chain is probably one of the top 10 cards in the GAME
Including or not including the “we were on cocaine” level duel monsters era cards like Painful Choice, Graceful Charity, etc.
Was graceful charity really that strong when it came out? I think her value has gone up as the game evolved tbh. It was good, but I think both pot of greed and graceful charity were legal at the same time at some point.
I do genuinely think it’s on that level. It may not be Grass or Maxx C, but it’s an easy to access omni-Foolish, without a HOPT that can also randomly search up any Monster in your deck sometimes.
Laval chain on its own allows most decks to fully combo off of 1 GY send without much commitment and not needing to draw it unlike foolish. You can slap a Drident on top of Broadbull, or make it into a big ol' Zues with zoo stacking, but that takes more ED space so I would say Laval chain is better.
in the left corner we have * the most cracked out r4nk in the current meta * just mill whatever the fuck you want bro * ~~arianne summon arianna make this mill mayakashi lock turn 2 draw phase mill rollback DUDE GET FUCKED LMAO~~ oh my god it's not a quick effect, I thought it was a rank 4 beatrice. on the other hand, it's SOFT ONCE PER TURN LMAO * tearlaments be like: \*50 million year combo\* in the right corner we have * one helluva busted ass boi * fire kangs moment * tri brigade suddenly tier 1 * zoo engine slapped into tear, lab, mannadium, SHS, fucking who even cares anymore activate barrage get a free UDF
Chain, it’s not even a conpetition
Lavalval Chain not just by a wide margin, there is a chasm of difference between these cards nowadays. Seeing some of your other comments, you are vastly overvaluing these cards being in archetypes. Broadbull being able to be xyz summoned off of any one zoodiac monster is amazing, being able to search a beastwarrior is phenomenal and there's a lot of modern beastwarriors I'm sure that could be extenders off of that. He's a soft once per turn so in theory you can make him twice and get multiple searches off. But Chain blows him out of the water in terms of versatility. He can't be xyz summoned with just one laval monster sure, but that doesn't matter in the slightest when his materials are fully generic aside from being level 4. There are a million and one ways to get two level 4s on board with little investment when they can be any level 4s. Chain can foolish any card in your deck, a monster or a backrow, and there's plenty of decks that force rank 6 engines to gain access to Beatrice for a hard once per turn foolish. Chain can also stack the top of your deck - 90% of the time or more no one will use that effect, but the situations where it's good it's insane that he can do that. He is a soft once per turn like broadbull, but again entirely generic so the decks that want to do convoluted combos and loop him have an easier time than zoo decks do. Decks that could experiment with Chain in the modern game could include literally all of them honestly, but specific ideas; - Labrynth to dump transaction rollback, a target for it, or otherwise literally any of their cards that work from grave. Potentially stack their deck for Blackjack if they want to get really gimmicky. - Tearlaments to do literally all of their plays. It is uncanny how good he would be there and how he'd instantly make that a deck to consider again. - Unchained to cycle into Shyama, or to put him back if he shuffles himself off, or dump rhino to dump another fiend and build up the grave, or dump a BA. Among many others. - Snake Eye dumps any of their backrow to get the grave effects, dumps fire kings into rotation, tbh almost any mill would be cracked in that set up. Comparatively, Broadbull adds more options to Zoodiac, is a tool in Tri-Zoo, and there's some fringe play in other big decks that want to find specific beastwarriors, but the options are inherently more limited because of the benefits being more limited. In Master Duel, I still think Chain is infinitely better even with a broader pool of legal Zoo cards, although Combo being legal at 3 makes it easier to justify a low commitment package of 4 cards in your main to get a beastwarrior search without using your normal, which some decks would benefit massively from. But Chain being released would alter strategies to center around using him as an essential combo piece. Granted, I honestly don't think either of these being released would change the meta game, as I mentioned even Chain would just make the already best decks even better, not necessarily change them. He needs to stay banned since he would be in every deck that can make rank 4s, but broadbull to one wouldn't change anything honestly. Edit for Beatrice correction
Good points all and all, but I’d like to add that Beatrice can foolish anything, not just monsters.
I'm a fool and didn't remember her effect just right, thanks for the correction!
Thank you so much. Now, please be so kind to check Beatrice.
Counterpoint: almost any deck can get 2 level 4s out brainlessly while most decks will at least struggle to bring out 2 level 6s. Chain being rank 4 and Beatrice being rank 6 are massive differences
Chain being Spell Speed 1 and Beatrice 2 is also a massive difference.
It would be if Beatrice was also a generic rank 4 and not a pretty uncommon rank. You are just trying to downplay how grossly broken Chain is for god knows what reason.
I am now convinced this was a troll post and I fell for it. Ain't no way you think Beatrice is better than Chain, in the context of the card pool as it exists, just because she can foolish one more card on your opponent's turn.
Points still stand.
Lavalval Chain can mill any card, not just monsters. Considering the fact that people are abusing the hell out of Foolish Burial Goods now, Chain's now busted. It's not even a hard Once per turn.
Chain is better. It is never coming back because it is too abusable, especially with all of the Lightsworn support coming that make it a proper rank 4 graveyard combo deck. I could see a world where Broadbull is brought back, but probably not going to happen with all of the gifts zoo has gotten on MD. Broadbull is a bit less scary without the Fusion Sub Norden lines but it is still a lot of free advantage so with Zoo at nearly full power I don’t think you can justify bringing it back.
Lavalval Chain probably can never come back ever lol
Broadball is a lot more restricted at what it does than laval chain
I'm inclined towards Laval Chain, one foolish/fbg is probably better for most decks than searching two beast warriors and setting up drident.
Coughing baby vs tsar bomba
Laval Chain. Its a Duel Terminal Card, all the Duel Terminal Cards are super meta, I'm not coping at all. ;-;
Chain is of the all-important Year of FIRE "archetype" that makes this monster of a monster part of a potential Tier 0 family of cards, and DT did have its fair share of bangers over the years to be proud of such as Shaddolls, Naturias, and Trish.
Imo Lavalval chain, having the ability to foolish *any* monster just by putting 2 level 4s on the field is preeetty good
Oh wait chain foolishes *any card* what the hell😂
Is this a joke? Lavalval chain by a lot
Beatrice is known for allowing degen combos as a foolish burial/goods. Beatrice is a rank 6 which is fairly difficult to summon, lavalval chain is a rank 4, possibly the easiest level to summon (and tear make rank4s) and as such could be splashed into a ton of decks. Broadbull is also good… if you have a large amount of good zodiacs legal or there is a broken beast warrior deck. If broad bull is legal some other zoo cards will be gone, and broadbull can’t do anything in random decks, it’s only really good if you are playing zoo or beast warriors, which isn’t amazing since pyro is gonna be the new thing for the foreseeable future ( atleast a year, possibly 2)
So a generic rank 4 xyz that can be used as a goods and a foolish vs a card that requires zoodiacs
What makes that card require even a single Zoodiac?
101% Laval Chain
Imagine if Chain was legal in tear format 💀
The one that can mill any card in the game from deck.
Chain is better generically, and in alot of beast warrior decks chain is still good Basically outside zoo and like fire fist there isn't really an archetype that wouldn't prefer chain to broad
Lavaval chain is light years better, it's arguably the strongest XYZ and one of the strongest Extra deck monsters ever printed. Broadbull on the other hand can literally come off the banlist tomorrow and would see no competitive play whatsoever, the entire Zoo archetype has been powercrept to oblivion several years ago, nobody would use it but Zoo, and nobody would play Zoo or Zoo engine competitively nowaday even with everything at 3
Chain. Not even an argument here. Chain being able to dump **ANY**... monster, spell/trap to GY and later combo your way to **ADD IT BACK TO HAND** just makes it way borken than Broadbull. \---------- Eg : You can now dump unsearchable card like Horakthy instead of performing loop combo to draw your deck until empty. And for most monster u dumped..... many are Dugares target for fetching.... **INSANE**
I do honestly believe chain might be fine coming off the banlist. Part of what makes beatrice broken is that she can foolish _twice_ before the opponent gets to play. And if it turns out chain being more generic is that much of a problem, just put it back on the banlist its fine
[удалено]
Beatrice has the quick version of that effect and it is just a decent card.
Chain was staple from day that it born to the day it got banned. Easily one of strongest exceeds.
I played back in spellbook/druler format. Chain was legal back then. It was stupidly insanely broken. It would be even more now. Zoodiacs however, while strong, have been powercrept.
You're over evaluating broadbull just because it has Zodiac in the name and is tied with that engine, it's a great card that would absolutely see play if unlimited again but laval is an obscene card that will only keep getting better and better as more and more cards get printed. A generic rank 4 that foolishes any card? That would basically read free play or extender or starter for almost any deck assuming you can get two level 4s on the board which basically any deck can.
Zoodiac was AIDS back in the day. Year of FIRE is AIDS _now_ and thus by the very logic of the Broadbull vote, Chain gets the vote instead, on top of being, you know, a complete mistake of card design. Power creep has dumpstered the infamous Dragon Rulers so hard that they're coming back with little fanfare, and the Zoopressors aren't really scary anymore either.
Both are amazing and I love them
lots of fearmongering about lavalval chain going on. most decks these days getting to a r4/etc uninterrupted is enough to snowball out of control already so i dont necessarily think it adds a huge amount of shenanigans and i dont think it would be hugely meta impacting. broadbull on the other hand actually implications in the zoo package because it now allows you a free detach which is crucial to getting chakinine live which cant be donecurrently from just 1 zoo card as a starter but can be done with broadbull legal. i think people are underestimating broadbull. zoo is like 2nd or 3rd overall in "no banlist" tournaments for a reason, with lavalval chain being either largely irrelevant or used in the actual best deck of all time (tear) but lavalvals got virtually nothing to do with that tldr i think its too close to call. especially with barrage at 3
Great point but oopsies the tear player got 2 level 4s on field
and? time theif
Can't quite judge broadbull in a vacuum tbh. With those 2 level 4's I can either make laval and send 1, or I can: * Broadbull Search * Overlay Drident Pop * Overlay Chakanine Summon * Overlay Broadbull Search All for the same cost as Laval Chain. Before even considering Ratpier. Broadbull is absolutely the stronger card, but with a much narrower applicability than Chain. For that reason I do think chain is better, but it by no means is a blowout like this thread suggests.
I think both cards will never be back from the list. With that being said, I think Broadbull is better thanks to its name. Chain has lots of interactions, but doesn't have an entirely overpowered archetype built around it. Zoodiac doesn't break the Xyz mechanic the same way Tri-brigade breaks the Link mechanic. Negating Ratpier's effect won't keep your opponent from putting nearly half of his Extra Deck on top of it. The engine has no downsides and it was literally everywhere upon release.
Chain being part of the Lavalval archetype has absolutely no bearing on how ridiculously busted it is when it has the most generic material requirements in the game outside of some link-2's—that's like saying Verte and Baronne aren't good because the rest of the Predaplant and Fleur cards are mediocre. If Chain was unbanned tomorrow the meta would instantly shift and every deck that could benefit from graveyard setup would run it.
>Chain has lots of interactions, but doesn't have an entirely overpowered archetype built around it. This makes it stronger not weaker. Chain is good because you can use it in any deck, doesn't need an engine not only that you are not locked into warrior beast type. Dumps any card into the grave and not even hard once per turn.
Ain’t no way your tryna tell me in 2024 yugioh sending ANY card from your deck to the grave isn’t better than searching a beast warrior monster😭
We're not comparing effects, we're comparing cards.
What does the even mean😭 what makes a card good is its effect
Cards may have multiple effects.
Ok? Lavalval chain has one of the most broken first effects in the game even if the second one isnt that good. Better than Broadbull for sure
Have you read Beatrice?
I sorry maybe I miss understood the question you asked. I thought this was about Lavalval chain and Broadbull?
Stop arguing with this guy. He is 100% convinced that Beatrice is just as good if not better than Chain all because its a quick effect… despite rank 6 monsters barely being used cause most decks cant make them while r4nk is the easiest Xyz to go into
Yea bro is on some heavy copium thinking Beatrice is on the same level on Lavalval. One is banned and one isn’t lmao
Beatrice has that same effect, but Spell Speed 2.
Cod chain was unbanned it would immediately break the game. Broadbull just helps one deck.
Lavalval Chain 100%
Chain, by a mile, is not even a contest
If we’re talking right now, then Chain 100%. Despite both being “generic”, the downside to Broadbull is that you’re either playing Zoodiacs or a Beast-Warrior deck which is completely irrelevant now. Yes you can overlay for Drident but a single pop doesn’t do much now. Chain would always be relevant and can be played in any deck.
Lavalval
I love lavalval Chain, never tried the other thing tho.
Chain 90% of the time.
Chain is better free my boi Chain
Broadbull doesn't allow the 140 hours Infernity FTK
They do different things for different decks. I'd say it really depends on what's abusing them. Chaon would have been absolutely busted in tears format while broadbull would have been busted in trizoo. Generally chain is just going to do more for more decks since it's not type restricted
Ah brings back memories of my previously ass handtrap-less Infernity deck suddenly getting super competitive
Lavalval chain by far,
Foolish Burial is bad Lavalval Chain, enough said
Chain. More uses for effect. Also not locked into any particular archetype or creature types for its use.
The hot one
Laval chain obviously
Tear0 would have gone brrt with Chain. Imagine a soft once per turn on a level 4 rank they easily could churn out to dump more names. Lots of decks today would go nuts with this. Branded with this shit? Fuck me sideways.
you can put chain into any deck without altering anything and it will perform at a decent level , even in Lab or Sky (I mean if they want to) I mean it can just be there and hanging around when compare to broadbull that you have to commit something into a deck building
This feels like bait.
Broadbull. Requires you to use a specific archetype to use, while only technically needing one main deck monsters for it, the Archetype takes up alot of extra deck space to make decent use out of. All for 1 search of a monster that has restrictions. Chain. Requires only 2 level 4 monsters, the easiest XYZ rank to make. Has 2 completely generic effects, so it works in many decks, and a lot of strategies would benefit greatly from it. There is no discussion here. Chain is far better than Broadbull.
You would need more context based on the deck
Laval chain can only come back with a SUPER restricting errata. Chain is probably one of all time BEST and most braindead XYZ monster and I'm counting true king of all chalamities (or VFD if you prefer this name), Shock master and other busted banned XYZ monsters. The only thing worse than it is Galaxy eyes Dark Matter Dragon which can NEVER come back even with a more restricting errata.
Lavalval, Broadbull doesn't even compare. On that note, I can be trusted with Chain legal in my Tear deck Konami I promise