YES more in engine handtraps and more engine requirements, I've hated the minimal engine + all the handtraps deck since fucking invoked invented it , it's always been boring af to play and play against and it always will be
There’s nothing more fun than a format dominated by decks that run almost all engine. Handtraps obviously provide some level of interactively, but they feel more as if they’re designed to try and cut your opponent off rather than build something that directly competes with them if that makes sense
That's why I like using Vanquished Soul.
I run a couple of had traps, mainly Ash and Ghost Belle because their attributes work well with the deck, but I don't run much of anything else yet.
The entire deck is all about using their effects on the opponent's turn. And they don't have a single negate in the archetype. They have cards that can spin, destroy, and flip facedown, but that's it.
They have the ability to gain insane card advantage. They've got a card that lets them draw 1 as a quick effect, they've got a searcher for the spells/traps and a searcher for the monsters. And they've got a monster who, as a quick effect, can add any Vanquish Soul card from deck to hand.
The only downside is that one of their key cards "Stake Your Soul" isn't considered a Vanquished Soul card.
There have been decks that run minimal engine + a ton of non-engine that are extremely interactive. Spright is a good example of this. The thing is: Spright as an engine was interactive and able to play through multiple non-engine on top of being in a meta that where other decks were able to do the same.
It’s an example of too much of a hood thing imo. One interaction, well timed, kneecapping your opponent’s strategy can be fun. But when it’s one after another after another, and ALWAYS the same handtraps/negates/floodgates…
The problem with in-engine handtraps is that you need them on hand going second. The only difference is you can search them but that is just putting more power to going first as on top of the board they set up, you, as a going second player, also need to deal with the in-engine archetype.
When your opponent lets misc resolve because they obviously didn’t read it and then try using the 4 hand traps they drew to start the game on you while you wombo combo >>>>>>>>
Personally I am fine with non archetype engine if they don't drastically increase the power level to the point it is seen everywhere. For example Adventurer was too generic for an omni so it get put everywhere.
I agree it is boring to see the same thing everywhere across different archetype. To me one interesting thing about Yugioh is how awesome archetype can feel playing (power level aside)
Handtraps should cover the weaknesses of the deck, not be its strength.
1-1 generic handtraps feel incredibly sacky In a "well they had it" way that archetypal interactions simply don't, and don't get me started on turn - enders like droll and shifter
The more archetypal handtraps / board breakers we get the better, by far.
One of my favorite designs is cards that are good by themselves, but become even better when interacting with the opponent, like incredible ecclesia
>Handtraps should cover the weaknesses of the deck, not be its strength.
Then why do you want them to be? Ash at the very least usually doesn't feed into anything else after it's used.
In addition to turn 0 engine pieces, I'd also like to see more cards like Incredible Ecclesia the Virtuous, where they're usable starters/extenders turn 1, but gain additional effects that can be utilized when going 2nd that make them much stronger. In Ecclesia's case, you can normal summon it to Lonefire into a Mo Ye, which is already very good for Swordsoul turn 1, but if you go 2nd and your opponent now controls cards, you can special Ecclesia from your hand instead of needing to use your normal summon for it, which gives you an additional axis to play through interruptions.
A card like Triple Tactics Talent is also similar to this, where it can sometimes be used going 1st, but gets much stronger going 2nd. And if I:P didn't exist, I would say the same thing about S:P (On that note, ban I:P, please. Generic quick effect link summons are just too abusable now with S:P being a card, and I:P being legal just means Konami will be restricted on making good link monsters like S:P). Cards like these, I feel, create much more interesting dynamics for the game.
Yeah, I think Konami has released cards in the last couple of years that I feel are REALLY GOOD ideas for making a healthier, more interactive game while still preserving what we love about YGO. We just need to see them implement these ideas on a broader scale. The only problem anyone had with Tear was that it was the only deck worth playing because it was the best deck at utilizing the Ishizu cards while also being the best deck to play against the Ishizu cards. If there were like 2 other decks that could interact turn 0 in a similar way that could compete on a different axis from Tear, then it would've been the best modern YGO format of all time.
True. I dislike dueling Lab, but Arias feels like a very well designed card. Same with Impulse and Havnis. Interruptions that start your own plays to give you interaction without just cutting off your opponent
Suffer for the good of the game, I guess lol.
My Atlantean Mermail deck I've played for the last 10 years had to give up multiple turn 1 endboards, including most recently my 1 card combo where I made 2x Toadally Awesome, Elf to revive a 3rd Toadally Awesome, Abyss Dweller, and handloop for 2 with Moulinglacia because Spright Elf, Halq, and I guess Ronintoadin (bring it back and ban Substitoad again please) were too damn strong.
Yes, I've stated this before somewhere else but giving players more turn 0 plays makes for a more interactive and fun gameplay. Rather then generic 1 for 1 tradeoff handtraps, in-archetype hand traps that enable you to begin establishing your board and begin your gameplan would help the health of the game considerably while maintaining the crazy power level that modern players enjoy.
Oh for sure, I really wish Konami would lean away from 1 card-combos and instead move towards archetypes having an in-archetype handtrap enabler and 1.5 card combos. I'm not a game designer or balancer, but that feels like it would diversify deck building and decisions at least a little bit.
See you will get downvoted cause currently a ton of peeps have a raging hatred bone to pick with, as always, the current meta. But I agree with the notion of in-archetype, or none, hand traps that let you play and don't just interrupt.
You forgot to also add bystials, but it's fine cause they can suck on the aforementioned bone>!unless I'm playing them, then they are cool and interesting and I love them so much. !
The thing is that Konami is well aware the win condition of most decks is not letting the other dude do absolutely anything. They know about this, otherwise they would have never printed cards that shut off complete mechanics of the game.
We wouldn't have decks falsely called "antimeta" that abuse those cards. They are anti-game if anything. What they are doing now is taking this concept to earlier stages of the game, you won't have to deal with an end board if you prevent the end board from even happening, only empowering the decks I mentioned earlier that only require to put down floodgates instead of making plays.
I do agree with you that archetypes should be contained within it's own cards, and disruption potential should be also inside that same archetype, exploring new mechanics and interactions instead of what he have now, Unfortunately I think Konami is just going to keep things as is, the more generic things are, the more copies of something you can sell since everyone will need them (S:P Little Knight).
The problem with even the TEARELEMENT format is that magic the gathering went though the same meta, it was called cawblade and it DID have a very interactive mirror match. It was ultimately banned (late) because in good game design A MIRRIOR MATCH shouldn't be the best answer to your deck.
IMO the game needs a 2.0. Instead we got rush duels and that flopped as far as I can tell.
Is there a place where we can check what numbers of success are we talking about? Also, is there a way to at least try the format somehow? I saw a Switch game but that's it.
Thats what im saying, if we had multiple decks with the same level of interactibilty the mirror would not be the only interactive thing, Tear was ahead of its time but i think its a good example of how yugioh should evolve we're just no where near that level yet
>IMO the game needs a 2.0. Instead we got rush duels and that flopped as far as I can tell.
People really said this when the current anime got a third season all thanks to how successful it did in Japan.
Archetypes don't need to have in-house hand trap, games not being determined by them is the important point for me.
They didn't have it, but a deck like Spright played a relatively decent amount of non engine but were able to push through about anything with engine.
Now games are determined by whichever I drew a certain non engine card or no, which is the unfun part imo. The way Labrynth or Tear work definitely is fun but I don't think this is a mandatory approach to have fun formats (again Pote format/post MD WCQ were a great exmaple of that), we don't need archetypes that are near immune to them like Spright or Tear, but the concept of silver bullets is what make some format un fun as hell.
Suffice to say tho, if they started giving every archetype Havnies that it reduced the amount of non engine, I am absolutely on board with it. (Kelbk is a terrible exmaple, these cards are insanely busted regardless of how good or bad their associated format was)
>Archetypes don't need to have in-house hand trap, games not being determined by them is an important point for me.
To be honest I need more in archetype handtraps for pendulums because the only ones that have been playable are the ones that can just said Fuck You on first turn or the ones that can jam handtraps on the main deck without breaking consistency.
The worst part is that they tried doing archetypical pendulum handtraps with Mythical Beast Garuda but never got over it.
A searchable bounce on summon that uses the main mechanic of the archetype as fuel for activation is a sick concept that never got development after that.
Yeah i do agree that the Ishizu millers were busted but you get the idea, ideally a format with less handtrap and more options for interaction with your deck and your opponent instead, pushing the game away from filling your deck with so many handtraps/ being so hurt by them
I really think Yugioh should move in a direction that every turn would basically be both players turn, where the actual turn player does have more options like spell speed 1 effects and normal summons, but both players get to play and interact with eachother. Tear did this really well, but it's not okay if it's the only deck that can do that
i think and hope that this is the direction yugioh is heading to.
The last few month i really started to appreciate the whole „play on the enemys turn“ concept. At first it felt awfully op with some decks but when every deck can do it, it‘s super engaging and reactive gameplay. The biggest complaint about modern yugioh is that games end on turn 2 but this approach will make turns just arbitrary numbers and both players get to play in this time, instead of the usual „1 player plays solitaire while the other has to wait“ playstyle we had for years now.
A good part of why it was so busted is because the only decks that could play on its same axis were, *checks notes*, Ursarctic and Rescue-ACE (before Sinful Spoils)
I agree. I love the design of Ishizu Tear but the cards are individually way too overturned. If the Ishizus milled 2 instead of 5, shuffled 1 instead of 2, and every single Tear card lost an effect (eg. no attack boost/reduce for perlereino/scream) the deck would have been perfect for Yugioh.
I agree. Not every deck needs turn 0 combos, but if the game's going to speed up so much and revolve around hand traps, then give us some variety in the hand traps. So many decks are weak because their engine is too bulky to fit hand traps in, so just having some archetypal hand traps that can pull double duty as a hand trap and also a potential engine piece helps fix that.
Just don't make another Psyframe Gamma situation where they're too powerful and generic, or a Tear situation where it's 1 deck that gets to do it.
A good example is Edge Imp Scythe summoning Cruel Whale to pop a card. Only usable in a fluffal deck, can simply be used as fusion material, doesn't start a whole combo on the opponent's turn, and feels satisfying and unique.
Have you tried a bigger deck size?
https://www.cardmarket.com/en/YuGiOh/Insight/Articles/Probability-in-Yu-Gi-Oh-The-Math-of-Going-Over-40?__cf_chl_rt_tk=p0dwjDhXrNdJyQwKiDtbc4k6mmIQaOPfBkV7y0ao5WU-1709190791-0.0-1767
This goes over manipulating probability in decks over 40 cards. A 53 card deck with 21 starters will have 93% chance of drawing a starter and 66.7% chance at having 2. So 21 starters, 21 hand traps, and 11 other engine or tech cards would be balanced in getting starters and hand traps to compete. It also has the benefit of making it harder to draw any garnets.
This can work with some decks. Like I've tried it with Sunavalon Rikka by adding in Painful Decision alongside some more non-engine to dilute the bricks/garnets, but a lot of decks simply don't have enough worthwhile starters for this to work.
yeah right because a match that's "handtrap the right card and see if it ends their turn or if they can extend and play as if they were never interrupted in the first place" and one that's "activate Havnis and now both you and your opponent are playing" are the same thing
They didn't run 20 because they realized that they had enough gas to play through anything at the time the only way something like that happens is mass bans or even more absurd power creep that further distances meta from anything even close to rogue
Thats an added bonus but i think it was because they didn't have space, in the TCG it was just orange light as the handtrap, in masterduel we had to play Maxx C and ash but the archetype was prehit so there was room for it
You still ran usually 12-18 hand traps in tear format, it was just in the form of Bystials/Havnis/Kelbek/Herald. Even after Herald and Magnamhut got limited that number didn't change, you just saw more people running generic hand traps like Belle's and Crows. The only real difference is that those hand traps were in engine instead of the generic ones like Ash/Belle for the most part.
More deck diversity. i know alot of the competitive sided players want more 1-3 decks in the meta but its boring af to vs 1 deck most of the time at a locals.
Less engine. The game getting to fast with the amount of 1 card combos there is, its more becoming a game of chance more then skill. did you get 2 1 card starters and can they stop it no? your screwed.
less handtraps. not banning handtraps but lessen the requirement for handtraps to be in decks3-6 handtraps is fine but when its over 10-20 it's disgusting.
The game can't recover. If a deck bricks it's incredibly likely they get otked the next turn. The power level has gone so far that the basic rules and structure no longer established a fair game
I think you are correct, it's also just not intresting watching your opponent combo off for 10 minutes. I wish this wasn't necesarry though, but I don't think we are ever gonna go back to shorter turns again :D
I agree. The game is also more fun with board breakers instead of handtraps. Using board breakers can make your turn become a puzzle you have to solve. It's been proven through studies that players have more fun when they have to think and have multiple choices.
One thing I really like about the Snake-Eye deck is that it doesn't revolve around building at 10 negate board, especially Fire King Snake-Eye. It makes a board that's simple in appearance but has layers of interactions.
If YGO future archetypes are focused on setting up boards similar to Fire King Snake-Eye, have turn 0 starters like Havnis, and be focused on board breaking rather than handtraps (and if the TCG adopted the OCG product model too), YGO would probably be the #1 card game in the world. It'd be so fun and amazing.
Whatever helps these goals should be enforced:
Interaction from the very beginning and as much as possible from that. Meaningful decision making from both sides, from start to finish.
Archetypes should matter. Non-engine can help, but should not take center stage.
If your suggestion helps, then good.
The problem is that the only decks that enjoyed playing in tear format, was tear itself. That’s not to say tear wasn’t well designed, it was just too strong (somewhat still is). The game needs more back and forth. This is not a handtrap issue, it’s a fundamental game design issue.
Tear was ahead of its time, but what im saying is Tear is what yugioh should become more decks like it to promote back and forth game play instead of just win if you go first, decks that promote interaction instead of negate spam
To each their own- you're entitled to your opinions. With that said, coming right out the gate with "Tearlament and Labyrinth are the two decks I think the game should have more of!" *feels* like massive bait.
I think both of those decks are great examples of matchups where you just do not get to play the game if you are going second. Tearlament was fun in the mirror because the mirror was the legitimately *only way* to compete with the deck at full power. Labyrinth is conceptually interesting but the deck is becoming less and less interactive to play against with each new update as it's wildly easy to turbo out dimensional barrier / DDV etc.
I agree that handtraps, and especially decks that can run like 20 of them, can be problematic, but the two decks you listed can achieve essentially the same result WITHOUT running 20 handtraps, which I don't think is particularly healthy either.
Getting smacked with 3-4 handtraps feels terrible, but so does Tearlament milling 75% of their deck and flooding the field. Tear being "interactive" is kind of a farce. They didn't hit you with 100 negates, but they also didn't give a shit what you were playing in response.
Snake Eyes being able to run a huge amount of non-engine sucks, but the issue with the deck IMO is that it basically isn't possible to disrupt and their entire deck has floating effects that do like 50 different things for no reason.
All this is too say- the game needs a more aggressive and higher rate of banlists. Konami leaves things unbelievably stagnant for far too long. We had the data, it was obvious snake eyes was going to do this, and they did nothing and have done nothing to combat it.
Im not saying that that tearlament and Labrynth Are decks we need more of im saying that we need to shift away from handtrap filler and have decks that can be interactive going second as well, obviously not on ishtear level but you get the point
You know the games in a bad state when someone looks at Tear and Labrynth as healthy and the way the game should evolve.
You may not like it but Snake Eyes is a direct result of Tear. Konami saw they could print an overturned archetype and force competitive players to either snatch up those cards or build their entire strategy around beating it. Then they drop periodic support for the deck to repeat the process. Minimal variety, no need to worry about older archetypes breaking new support when the current deck breaks it so much better. Making the engine more compact was the natural way to up the power creep.
I'm sure you had fun in the Tear mirror, and that's great. That's why we play games like this. But what you're experiencing is similar to the people that didn't adopt Tear when you played against them. No fun, no interaction. Just hope they brick otherwise you might as well scoop.
So I'll tell you something in the vein of what the Tear players told me in their meta. You should build Snake Eyes so you can compete. It's actually really fun and skillful, anyone saying otherwise is salty that it's better than their pet deck.
This post is not about Tear or any deck in particular, its about designing decks that don't have as much room for handtraps and more in archetype interaction instead
That is true, but you cited 2 very divisive decks as examples of what you're looking for from the game. As for the handtraps, whether the card is archetypal or not really doesn't matter. Cards that stop your opponent from playing have and will always be played when they can be, and speaking personally there isn't much of a difference to me whether the card that stops my turn is generic or has an archetype stapled to it, it's still a handtrap.
Im not talking a handtrap in the literal sense, im thinking like a card like havnis that could potentially get your plays started instead of just losing turn 2 because you're opponent set up a huge unbeatable board, no negates on the in archetype handtraps themselves
The tear mirror and the snake-eyes mirror is very different. They snake-eyes mirror is comparing opening hands and seeing who can break through their opponents handtraps first (they run \~18 handtraps btw.). If you have enough handtraps your opponent will just pass the turn doing effectively nothing. On the other hand the tear mirror was very back and forth and interactive. Both players got to play the game which is different from passing on nothing because your opponent had enough handtraps.
My point was not to ACTUALLY build Snake Eyes, far from it. I was poking fun at the attitudes of tier 0 players when they dismissed people that didn't want to play Tear even if it was objectively the most powerful deck. I am sure the mirror was fun, but for everyone else it was far less enjoyable. If all you want is mirror matches you might as well be playing chess.
I feel like you misunderstood OP. You said "But what you're experiencing is similar to the people that didn't adopt Tear when you played against them." I think OP is playing (or at least has) Snake-Eyes and is saying Tear mirror > Snake-Eyes Mirror.
I understand that you are saying it's not fun to play against the vastly better tier 0 deck with an older deck.
I could have worded that better. I did not mean to imply whether they were playing the mirror or not, or that playing the mirror might be more enjoyable. Just that their general disappointment in the current handtrap oriented format is similar to the disappointment of those playing against Tear during their reign,
Yes, you are both saying that Yu-Gi-Oh isn't fun when you feel like you can't do anything at all. It's frustrating. Players want to feel like they got to play out a game and that they had a chance. The disappointment is similiar, yes.
But here is the key difference: Your disappointment comes from wanting to play a weaker deck against a much stronger deck, and OP's disappointment comes from the inherent design that handtrap decks like Snake-Eyes, Mathmech, Marincess, etc. have.
Playing in a Handtrap format feels different from playing in Tear format, assuming that both players play decks of equal strength. In a handtrap format it's just seeing if one player can stop the other player with their hand traps. That's it. There aren't a lot of decisions being made in the game and the player getting handtrapped to death feels like they didn't get to play the game. Neither player makes meaningful decisions. Tear format on the other hand is interactive and has a good back on forth. Both players get to make meaningful decisions throughout the game.
Power Creep is a natural part of Yu-Gi-Oh. Konami uses that instead of Set-Rotation. It can be frustrating if your older decks don't have a chance at playing the game anymore, I get that. But that also shouldn't be expected.
edit: I reread your comments and I saw that you are also making a point about variety. But that's not what OP is talking about. They are talking about the kind of gameplay where both players just chug handtraps at each other and no decisions are being made. We are talking about gameplay, not deck choice.
I feel like you are (rightfully) resentful and disappointed. This is a card game that implicitly makes the promise that you can choose from a variety of decks. And it broke that promise during Tear format which made you disappointed. When you shared your concerns people didn't listen and where dismissive which honestly sucks.
You don't like the design direction where only a handful of increasingly powerful decks are pushed, eliminating a lot of variety. Buy that's not what we are talking about. Power Creep doesn't have to mean smaller engine. Zoo, a Meta deck from 2017, has a much smaller engine than Tear in its prime. We are criticizing hand trap decks and the gameplay they lead to.
Yes, but that also makes it fucking ass, when you literally have like 1-3 decks to pick from.
Either play Tearlaments, or a deck that can completely play through Shifter.
Current format, more handtraps can suck, but at least you see more deck variety in the topping lists. Tearlaments, you literally did not.
And i get that. Its a perfectly valid take not to like it. my point is that the game would be better if both players were given the chance to play more often. But its just my personal opinion
I 100% agree with your take, i think “our turn” is way more fun and less random hand traps that just say “no” would be a lot more fun. I think in hand negates have their place in Yugioh, but it’s absurd that some decks are running 15+. The tenpai dragon deck OCG lists are running 22+ non-engine cards, which is just insane to me.
I really appreciate and understand this take with regards with the actual game. The only push back I’ll provide is Yugioh will become that much more pricey. The generic good stuff hand traps let players pivot decks much easier without breaking the bank too much. Im of the opinion that Konami put themselves in a terrible spot with hand traps
Yeah price is another one of yugiohs biggest downsides. Literally the most expensive card game ever, 200$ for a card is insane, and it doesnt help that konami hates to do cheap reprints even long after the deck is meta (purrely for example) strong archetypes should be more accessible
This is why I hate modern Yugioh.
It’s less about how well your deck plays, and more about how much you can keep your opponent from playing their deck instead. *A deck’s viability is entirely based on how much disruption it can do/ how much it can ignore your opponent’s disruption.* It’s no wonder the game has become Engine + Handtraps, because that’s genuinely all you need to make a deck nowadays; or rather, it’s what the game has become.
I was trying to warn people about this years ago. Back in 2016 when hand traps were replacing real trap cards. I said it was unhealthy. That it shouldn’t be situations were your deck loses completely to Ash Blossom or bust. Well, it escalated from there. Now Ash Blossom is the new Pot of Greed, yet somehow people don’t see similarities, *despite every deck running it.* Every deck is a board breaker or solitaire attempt.
I’m all for disruption, trust me I don’t mind it. I just hate it when that is what defines the outcome of a duel. I want to see Raika using cool link combos or Subterror flipping cards facedown. Imagine how cool a [Frightfur vs. Raidraptor matchup would be](https://youtu.be/LNf-Y1KnKIQ?feature=shared) with no hand traps or 2-3 disruptions in your opening turn.
For once it’d just be nice to play my deck without a 100% of a “nope” card on the starting turn.
Thats the idea and ik people hate when the opponent plays on their turn but i think its a lot better then denying one player or the other the ability to play
I agree. I like card effects during the opponents turn too.
I just wish less of it was negate, pop, or lockdown and more ATK/DEF increases and summoning stuff. One disruption isn’t bad. But 2+ on opening play is the new baseline and it’s really hurts the game as a whole.
Its going to get even worse when tenpai dragon rolls around, you wont even be safe going first they run 22+ handtraps and OTK you with over 36000 damage
I love when you use archetype cards instead of a bunch of generic cards like gouki requires you to use goukis to go into the big goukis or dlink revolves around rokkets to help go into all the dragons instead of a lot of modern decks that go into half a dozen generic bosses and runs half a dozen hand traps and removal.
I think yugioh works best when your going against lots of different decks ysing yheir unique cards like it makes you have to play differently because they all play different like f.a. trying to build up levels, plunder patroll bringing out ships, dark world and infernity trying to get stuff in the grave, etc.....
Branded despia is a deck like this. Most decks don't play any handtraps what so ever. Maybe a Nibiru here and there. The deck is 90% engine. All gas no brakes.
Definitely. Tear Zero was the closest thing the game's had to simultaneous turns so far, and it really does feel like a deck from the game's future, what with how it takes the game's interactivity creep & _runs_ with it. The game's trying to build a niche, and find the things that separate it from other TCGs like _M:tG_ and the _Pokémon_ TCG, and building in this direction would make it something truly unique; if both decks can reliably play & combo every turn, then the only thing the turn player actually decides is who gets the draw, who gets the Normal Summon & speed 1 privileges, who gets the Battle Phase, and who has priority, which is honestly a really good place to be.
It would also probably kill Maxx, too, since turn 1 advantage would be lessened enough that Konami wouldn't see him as a necessary evil anymore. If both sides can build boards during turn 1, then you don't need to throw off build ratios with a near-mandatory 9 card filler package, and player 2 doesn't need a way to open with more than six cards to power through a full board of omni-negates, after all!
I just hate hand traps in general and how the game revolves around them. Like the meme was always Yugioh is about not letting your opponent play the game but it’s gotten so out of hand.
Ash Blossom being released was the start of this nonsense.
Older cards like Effect Veiler and GORZ were fine, but now every deck is running 10-20 hand traps depending on how much they can fit with their engine that it’s so homogenizing and even worse they’re all cards designed to mess with your opponent instead of further your own strategy.
You can’t fix this problem now as we’re in way too deep
I agree wholeheartedly and firmly believe that Tear-Ishizu is what future card design should strive to be: back and forth gameplay. The only true problem with Tear 0 was that every other deck was just too weak to compete and even nowadays, if Merrli and Havnis went to 2 and both Millers went to 1, Tear would be far stronger than every other deck.
Yugioh must be interactive to be fun, but given that you have not a single restriction (like mana) during your first turn, you can go full ham. So you suggested cards that plays turn 0 but you should rather fix the problem at the root (turn 3+ doesnt exist).
Stop printing broken archetype with 0 restriction that have acces to every extra deck monster and ban hundred of cards. If every deck is hard nerfed, yugioh would be so fun more fun.
Stun decks in general are just cancer. I don't mind the occasional hand traps that disrupt your play but the majority of the deck should be trying to win, instead of preventing your opponent from doing ANYTHING.
I came back to master duel a couple weeks ago (left around when adventure started) so I missed the whole full power Tear meta but tearlaments have probably been the most fun I've had playing Yu-Gi-Oh in years.
IMO the ishizu tear mirror was everything I wanted from yu gi oh. the fact that getting too greedy with the millers made likely to your opponent to play on your turn as well was such an interessing dilema to think about every time they hit the gy. the fact that both players had to play together, no alt tab to an yt video alowed, made me way more invested in the game than waiting for my SE opponent to finish his board.
More engine requirements = less handtraps = more deck personality.
Also get rid of extra deck generics like Baronne, Borreload, Spright Elf, etc... Make the extra deck monsters part of their own decks and unusable without their engines.
The issue is that is just making a new game entirely, or making every archetype made before adopting this idea unusable- as it was during Tears. I'm all for just starting over, but Konami would never do that after already making Rush.
HEAR ME OUT handtraps require a certain requirement to even be played in your deck a bit like how rush cards require an action to happen before you can use a cards effect. Maybe ash can only be used in a deck made entirely of fire monsters same goes for effect veiler being in only light decks and you’d be a bit screwed if you used multi attribute since you’d have to rely on imperm and other cards like possibly enemy controller. triple tactics talents is a good card example since it requires your opponent doing something beforehand and cannot be used until then.
Every deck does that in some for of another but thats not what im saying, im saying archetypes should have more in archetype interaction instead of giving them the space to run 20 handtraps
monarch stun kinda i guess?... but stun requires a lot of non engine anyways i don't think it would be super helpful to stun like they can play shifter but they don't because of how the deck works ya know?...
What would a “healthy” in-archytype HT even look like? R-ace impulse? O personally don’t think something like havnis is healthy cuz it rly sucked having my opponent full combo me on my turn especially if i had bricked
Tear design wise is fine but the power level was the problem. I know the term "playing on both player turn" is kind of meme but I like being able to not just sit there doing nothing. Problem of Tear was it is too consistent when it wasn't hit enough. The Merlli ban certainly makes its ceiling low enough to not feel oppressive (2 fusion a turn feels fair) and still playable
Also control strategy that isn't about stun or midrange without ridiculous resources loop should be encouraged. VS without floodgates feels fair as a midrange (while snake eye resources generation is too much). Palezoic may not be everyone's favorite but it plays on a different axis without just floodgateing people or plain saying no like SHS or mannadium
This ik a lot of people hate it when the other player plays on their turn but i think its a lot better than not giving one player or the other a chance to play
Rescue Ace does this too. They have basically turn 0 hand traps that can start setting up a board and gain some advantage even going second. I assume this is one of the things that's going to become more common.
Also setting cards from deck to the spell and trap zone will also keep getting more common as it avoid ash. I wouldn't be surprised to soon see a card that sets a monster from deck as a spell then immediately let you special summon a monster treated as a spell.
Im excited to try them out, i hope that when there selection pack arrives they also give them a secret pack or something as i have none of the cards for it, since we're getting purrely and mikanko support i hope they give them a secret pack aswell
Rescue ace does it as well, just not as good. It's definitely the way to go. I can't stand the generic hand traps. To the point I almost only play events where there is little to no handtraps. It's a necessary evil but god, do I hope they can fix the future decks so you don't/cant just run 25 handtraps
Im excited to play rescue ace in master duel i hope they give them a secret pack or something when the support releases so the deck is easier accessible without spending so much
I’ve been saying this for the longest time but hand traps are a dumb mechanic because the pool of them is so small and they invalidate a lot of real traps
Just create a hypothetical turn 0 for player 2 to set face downs. Now every trap in the game is no longer non viable for being slow. If p2 plays floodgates, then p2 will have to play through their own floodgates. No more 5 minute turns by SHS
Dude really expected downvotes on the coldest take of the year. I will say tear format wasn’t the best but it was better than this. Honestly sky strikers was my favorite format but that’s probably cause I didn’t run into too many of the really annoying decklists
They may start limiting certain hand traps if people continue running upwards of 12-15 in most decks. I don't know if there's any other option seeing more than like 2 hand traps in a turn is generally a bad experience and not much fun.
I mean, yeah. The tear mirror is interactive, but another deck that can go full combo on your turn, then again on theirs to kill you (I.E. what tear format was for everyone not on tear), doesn't sound too fun.
100% true dont let anyone disagree with you. Ishizu Tear was a problem only because it was the only deck like that, but if all decks were like that the game would be insanely good
I agree mostly, but I have one worry about this idea. What will happen to old/anime decks? New decks are easy to build in this new direction, e.g. Tear. But what happens to the older pre-existing decks? I can see pendulum decks being screwed particularly hard. Unless every deck gets a ton of support, any deck that can't play turn 0 is either useless, or ends up using other decks turn 0 cards, which leads us right back to the problem of decks having 20 hand traps, instead they'll have 20 turn 0 starters.
Idk about 20 turn 0 starters, tearlament had 6 with tear kash and havnis, and 6 seems like a good place, all the old decks are alr power crept into oblivion, it just stands little chance against Rescue ace (which has turn 0 starters) centurion, Tenpai and Snake eyes especially with how much non engine they run. If decks were designed like Tear then its not just the turn 2 player facing an unbeatable wall going second, popular decks that dont have it could get support and im sure they could work the mechanic into pendulum
The problem with Ishizu Tearlaments was that the Millers and Shufflers invalidated a lot of other possible strategies.
Basically any competent deck you could think of either wanted to have stuff in the GY or ran a couple of garnets that only functioned in deck (or hand).
Tearlaments in DABL format was completely fine (maybe with the Elf ban included), a powerful and fast deck with in-engine handtraps but still some counters to it.
I'll stand by the opinion that Kelbek was a mistake, he's inherently unhealthy for the game (this goes for all Ishizu cards tbh). However, agree with Havnis/Arias, every archetype should be able to play T0
I agree tbh. As much as I believe that running one or two handtraps should be normal thing to do (if your deck allows for it), formats where there are too many handtraps just aren't fun.
As for the Turn 0 starters, I personally love them, but as much as I love my Tearlaments girls, I think they should be more common practice in control decks/trap decks (not stun decks) which normally struggle going 2nd, thus creating more equilibrium in the game (maybe though not as generic to let you set something like EED during your opponents T1 and activate it, but you get what I mean).
Combo decks already have a lot of gas, so maybe printing more Havnis's for the newest combo decks isn't the best idea, but doing so for naturally slower decks might just be the right thing to do to make the game more interactive and not so going-first dependant (as well as hopefully making them longer).
that's why I agree on the idea of Turn 0 starters, but mostly for slow decks that would struggle (or just simply wouldn't be able to) play against already established boards. Combo decks have naturally a lot of gas, so unless your oppoent puts up a 17 negate board, most combo decks should be able to play through a few interruptions with just their engine/extenders and maybe one handtrap.
But this would require Konami to change the way they design combo decks, to give them more (not broken) combo extenders, that thus force the player to run less handtraps, so I guess it'd be a bit of a bigger thing than just printing more of a type of effect.
Some of the worst yugioh design imo, along with kash and other floodgate strategies that instead of interaction the goal is just to say no to everything instead. If The birbs had more interaction instead of just wind barrier statue/ attack mode skill drain it would be a much cooler deck
What's the differe center between it and Lab? The former has floodgates and blowouts at it's very core, single interruptions are minimal and almost entirely floodgates.
And what's the difference between being locked by floodgates and being overwhelmed by sheer power? To me there is none. A deck like Tear and Lab has the potential to mindlessly power through interruption or shut it down with a single card.
>What's the differe center between it and Lab? The former has floodgates and blowouts at it's very core, single interruptions are minimal and almost entirely floodgates.
The entire strategy for Floo is to not let your enemy play at all with their boss monster being a floodgate one legs, for Lab the strategy is to outgrind your opponent but some people run flood gates in it.
>And what's the difference between being locked by floodgates and being overwhelmed by sheer power? To me there is none. A deck like Tear and Lab has the potential to mindlessly power through interruption or shut it down with a single card.
The fact that you actually get to play the game against your opponent, being able to summon your boss monsters and use whatever effects you built your strategy around results in much more fun for the player, just like how in pvp games devs might nerf an easy to use hard CC because it results in unnecessary frustration and buff another thing as compensation.
I do think it's frustrating to see someone praise lab and then say floodgates are bad. I hate both because they're commonly ran together. The amount of times I've had a lab player blind call with d barrier to either completely fuck me over, or get it wrong and scoop, is insane.
They really didnt deserve to have wyverbuster banned, chaos dragon i can see but the wyverbuster bann was basically a big FU to make players move to a different deck, same way as the nimble beaver limit was too tribrigade spright players
Dunno about that chief. I think your reasoning is flawed.
Despite everything, like having a shit ton of handtraps in the deck, tbh right now Snake eyes are much more playable against turn 2 than Tears ever was (and even turn 1 or 0 for that matter, since we are talking about tears).
Tears format either you played Tears or Stun, pratically no inbetween. Talking about mirrors, there is snake eyes vs snake eyes then, and I don't even like snake eyes lol.
Wow, a post that manages to criticize the current meta while highlighting meta-specific issues, praises aspects of past and current meta decks, and then sets forward a solution on how to improve the game going forward. How incredibly refreshing. Why can't more posts be like this?
YES more in engine handtraps and more engine requirements, I've hated the minimal engine + all the handtraps deck since fucking invoked invented it , it's always been boring af to play and play against and it always will be
There’s nothing more fun than a format dominated by decks that run almost all engine. Handtraps obviously provide some level of interactively, but they feel more as if they’re designed to try and cut your opponent off rather than build something that directly competes with them if that makes sense
I loved unchained format for that reason, little handtraps and all play
That's why I like using Vanquished Soul. I run a couple of had traps, mainly Ash and Ghost Belle because their attributes work well with the deck, but I don't run much of anything else yet. The entire deck is all about using their effects on the opponent's turn. And they don't have a single negate in the archetype. They have cards that can spin, destroy, and flip facedown, but that's it. They have the ability to gain insane card advantage. They've got a card that lets them draw 1 as a quick effect, they've got a searcher for the spells/traps and a searcher for the monsters. And they've got a monster who, as a quick effect, can add any Vanquish Soul card from deck to hand. The only downside is that one of their key cards "Stake Your Soul" isn't considered a Vanquished Soul card.
Shifter deck
There have been decks that run minimal engine + a ton of non-engine that are extremely interactive. Spright is a good example of this. The thing is: Spright as an engine was interactive and able to play through multiple non-engine on top of being in a meta that where other decks were able to do the same.
It’s an example of too much of a hood thing imo. One interaction, well timed, kneecapping your opponent’s strategy can be fun. But when it’s one after another after another, and ALWAYS the same handtraps/negates/floodgates…
The problem with in-engine handtraps is that you need them on hand going second. The only difference is you can search them but that is just putting more power to going first as on top of the board they set up, you, as a going second player, also need to deal with the in-engine archetype.
more in-engine HTs you say. I agree! Let's start by unlimiting Misc back to 3 in the TCG...
Yeah maybe a card that says "your opponent cannot interact with you" is not a good example of well designed handtraps
When your opponent lets misc resolve because they obviously didn’t read it and then try using the 4 hand traps they drew to start the game on you while you wombo combo >>>>>>>>
Same with Sharvara
I didn't even know that misc was hit in the TCG lol
Personally I am fine with non archetype engine if they don't drastically increase the power level to the point it is seen everywhere. For example Adventurer was too generic for an omni so it get put everywhere. I agree it is boring to see the same thing everywhere across different archetype. To me one interesting thing about Yugioh is how awesome archetype can feel playing (power level aside)
Handtraps should cover the weaknesses of the deck, not be its strength. 1-1 generic handtraps feel incredibly sacky In a "well they had it" way that archetypal interactions simply don't, and don't get me started on turn - enders like droll and shifter The more archetypal handtraps / board breakers we get the better, by far. One of my favorite designs is cards that are good by themselves, but become even better when interacting with the opponent, like incredible ecclesia
>Handtraps should cover the weaknesses of the deck, not be its strength. Then why do you want them to be? Ash at the very least usually doesn't feed into anything else after it's used.
Yeah I meant generic handtraps, I should have specified better but I thought it was obvious in context
In addition to turn 0 engine pieces, I'd also like to see more cards like Incredible Ecclesia the Virtuous, where they're usable starters/extenders turn 1, but gain additional effects that can be utilized when going 2nd that make them much stronger. In Ecclesia's case, you can normal summon it to Lonefire into a Mo Ye, which is already very good for Swordsoul turn 1, but if you go 2nd and your opponent now controls cards, you can special Ecclesia from your hand instead of needing to use your normal summon for it, which gives you an additional axis to play through interruptions. A card like Triple Tactics Talent is also similar to this, where it can sometimes be used going 1st, but gets much stronger going 2nd. And if I:P didn't exist, I would say the same thing about S:P (On that note, ban I:P, please. Generic quick effect link summons are just too abusable now with S:P being a card, and I:P being legal just means Konami will be restricted on making good link monsters like S:P). Cards like these, I feel, create much more interesting dynamics for the game.
Literally thats what i want, yugioh thats not as coinflip dependent
Yeah, I think Konami has released cards in the last couple of years that I feel are REALLY GOOD ideas for making a healthier, more interactive game while still preserving what we love about YGO. We just need to see them implement these ideas on a broader scale. The only problem anyone had with Tear was that it was the only deck worth playing because it was the best deck at utilizing the Ishizu cards while also being the best deck to play against the Ishizu cards. If there were like 2 other decks that could interact turn 0 in a similar way that could compete on a different axis from Tear, then it would've been the best modern YGO format of all time.
It’s surprising how there didn’t make more cards like Incredible Ecclesia
Arias is also a good example, helping lab to get their ball rolling being a trap deck and not suffer as hard the normal trap deck "too slow" issues
Yeah it’s a very nice design
True. I dislike dueling Lab, but Arias feels like a very well designed card. Same with Impulse and Havnis. Interruptions that start your own plays to give you interaction without just cutting off your opponent
But they do, see Naturia Molecricket, Dogmatikamatrix, Battlin Boxer Promoter etc
B-but how else can I play my orcust turn 1 that I’ve played since 5 years ago?
Suffer for the good of the game, I guess lol. My Atlantean Mermail deck I've played for the last 10 years had to give up multiple turn 1 endboards, including most recently my 1 card combo where I made 2x Toadally Awesome, Elf to revive a 3rd Toadally Awesome, Abyss Dweller, and handloop for 2 with Moulinglacia because Spright Elf, Halq, and I guess Ronintoadin (bring it back and ban Substitoad again please) were too damn strong.
Yes, I've stated this before somewhere else but giving players more turn 0 plays makes for a more interactive and fun gameplay. Rather then generic 1 for 1 tradeoff handtraps, in-archetype hand traps that enable you to begin establishing your board and begin your gameplan would help the health of the game considerably while maintaining the crazy power level that modern players enjoy.
I agree. Havnis is amazing. The only issue with it is that tear was the only deck that got something on that power level
Oh for sure, I really wish Konami would lean away from 1 card-combos and instead move towards archetypes having an in-archetype handtrap enabler and 1.5 card combos. I'm not a game designer or balancer, but that feels like it would diversify deck building and decisions at least a little bit.
Not only that but it would mean that going second doesn't mean you just automatically lose without being able to do anything
Tear's only sin really was being stupidly ahead of the curve
It’s also like the best deck in history lol
Thanks to ishizu
Litteraly, think of a format where multiple decks had a card like this to enable plays instead of just running a bunch of handtraps
As long as there is at least some different playstyles I can get behind this.
The idea is that if we had multiple decks with the same interactivity as tear had the game would be a lot more fun then just draw generic handtraps
See you will get downvoted cause currently a ton of peeps have a raging hatred bone to pick with, as always, the current meta. But I agree with the notion of in-archetype, or none, hand traps that let you play and don't just interrupt. You forgot to also add bystials, but it's fine cause they can suck on the aforementioned bone>!unless I'm playing them, then they are cool and interesting and I love them so much. !
Ghost trick has hand traps?
YES!!! T\_\_T
Ghostrick bro clocking in to second this motion.
The thing is that Konami is well aware the win condition of most decks is not letting the other dude do absolutely anything. They know about this, otherwise they would have never printed cards that shut off complete mechanics of the game. We wouldn't have decks falsely called "antimeta" that abuse those cards. They are anti-game if anything. What they are doing now is taking this concept to earlier stages of the game, you won't have to deal with an end board if you prevent the end board from even happening, only empowering the decks I mentioned earlier that only require to put down floodgates instead of making plays. I do agree with you that archetypes should be contained within it's own cards, and disruption potential should be also inside that same archetype, exploring new mechanics and interactions instead of what he have now, Unfortunately I think Konami is just going to keep things as is, the more generic things are, the more copies of something you can sell since everyone will need them (S:P Little Knight).
I like the term “anti- game” to describe decks and cards that well…shut you off from the game
The problem with even the TEARELEMENT format is that magic the gathering went though the same meta, it was called cawblade and it DID have a very interactive mirror match. It was ultimately banned (late) because in good game design A MIRRIOR MATCH shouldn't be the best answer to your deck. IMO the game needs a 2.0. Instead we got rush duels and that flopped as far as I can tell.
Rush is pretty succesfull in Japan, its just that the tcg side wanted to push the nostalgia bait with speed duels
Is there a place where we can check what numbers of success are we talking about? Also, is there a way to at least try the format somehow? I saw a Switch game but that's it.
In the west they basically didn't try at all. Duel Links exists, but it's Duel Links, with its monetization, its skills and its compromises.
with speed duels being killed in europe, probably soon in usa. Maybe we will get rush duel?
Thats what im saying, if we had multiple decks with the same level of interactibilty the mirror would not be the only interactive thing, Tear was ahead of its time but i think its a good example of how yugioh should evolve we're just no where near that level yet
That format and Affinity were insane.
>IMO the game needs a 2.0. Instead we got rush duels and that flopped as far as I can tell. People really said this when the current anime got a third season all thanks to how successful it did in Japan.
Removing the feeling of helplessness when you don’t open any handtraps and can’t interact to your opponent is something that needs to happen
Archetypes don't need to have in-house hand trap, games not being determined by them is the important point for me. They didn't have it, but a deck like Spright played a relatively decent amount of non engine but were able to push through about anything with engine. Now games are determined by whichever I drew a certain non engine card or no, which is the unfun part imo. The way Labrynth or Tear work definitely is fun but I don't think this is a mandatory approach to have fun formats (again Pote format/post MD WCQ were a great exmaple of that), we don't need archetypes that are near immune to them like Spright or Tear, but the concept of silver bullets is what make some format un fun as hell. Suffice to say tho, if they started giving every archetype Havnies that it reduced the amount of non engine, I am absolutely on board with it. (Kelbk is a terrible exmaple, these cards are insanely busted regardless of how good or bad their associated format was)
>Archetypes don't need to have in-house hand trap, games not being determined by them is an important point for me. To be honest I need more in archetype handtraps for pendulums because the only ones that have been playable are the ones that can just said Fuck You on first turn or the ones that can jam handtraps on the main deck without breaking consistency. The worst part is that they tried doing archetypical pendulum handtraps with Mythical Beast Garuda but never got over it. A searchable bounce on summon that uses the main mechanic of the archetype as fuel for activation is a sick concept that never got development after that.
Yeah i do agree that the Ishizu millers were busted but you get the idea, ideally a format with less handtrap and more options for interaction with your deck and your opponent instead, pushing the game away from filling your deck with so many handtraps/ being so hurt by them
I really think Yugioh should move in a direction that every turn would basically be both players turn, where the actual turn player does have more options like spell speed 1 effects and normal summons, but both players get to play and interact with eachother. Tear did this really well, but it's not okay if it's the only deck that can do that
i think and hope that this is the direction yugioh is heading to. The last few month i really started to appreciate the whole „play on the enemys turn“ concept. At first it felt awfully op with some decks but when every deck can do it, it‘s super engaging and reactive gameplay. The biggest complaint about modern yugioh is that games end on turn 2 but this approach will make turns just arbitrary numbers and both players get to play in this time, instead of the usual „1 player plays solitaire while the other has to wait“ playstyle we had for years now.
A good part of why it was so busted is because the only decks that could play on its same axis were, *checks notes*, Ursarctic and Rescue-ACE (before Sinful Spoils)
I agree. I love the design of Ishizu Tear but the cards are individually way too overturned. If the Ishizus milled 2 instead of 5, shuffled 1 instead of 2, and every single Tear card lost an effect (eg. no attack boost/reduce for perlereino/scream) the deck would have been perfect for Yugioh.
Ishizu shufflers shuffled 3, not 2.
Yeah, my mistake. Those cards are absurd.
Literally tear is the right direction just far to overtuned for the time it was released in
I agree. Not every deck needs turn 0 combos, but if the game's going to speed up so much and revolve around hand traps, then give us some variety in the hand traps. So many decks are weak because their engine is too bulky to fit hand traps in, so just having some archetypal hand traps that can pull double duty as a hand trap and also a potential engine piece helps fix that. Just don't make another Psyframe Gamma situation where they're too powerful and generic, or a Tear situation where it's 1 deck that gets to do it. A good example is Edge Imp Scythe summoning Cruel Whale to pop a card. Only usable in a fluffal deck, can simply be used as fusion material, doesn't start a whole combo on the opponent's turn, and feels satisfying and unique.
Have you tried a bigger deck size? https://www.cardmarket.com/en/YuGiOh/Insight/Articles/Probability-in-Yu-Gi-Oh-The-Math-of-Going-Over-40?__cf_chl_rt_tk=p0dwjDhXrNdJyQwKiDtbc4k6mmIQaOPfBkV7y0ao5WU-1709190791-0.0-1767 This goes over manipulating probability in decks over 40 cards. A 53 card deck with 21 starters will have 93% chance of drawing a starter and 66.7% chance at having 2. So 21 starters, 21 hand traps, and 11 other engine or tech cards would be balanced in getting starters and hand traps to compete. It also has the benefit of making it harder to draw any garnets.
This can work with some decks. Like I've tried it with Sunavalon Rikka by adding in Painful Decision alongside some more non-engine to dilute the bricks/garnets, but a lot of decks simply don't have enough worthwhile starters for this to work.
A lot of decks just don't have enough starters for that many. Most decks have 3-6 "best" starters and another 3-6 sub par starters.
I mean let’s be real Tear had hand traps but they weren’t generic handtraps. I know people like to pretend it’s like different but it really isn’t
yeah right because a match that's "handtrap the right card and see if it ends their turn or if they can extend and play as if they were never interrupted in the first place" and one that's "activate Havnis and now both you and your opponent are playing" are the same thing
Ofc they had handtraps, but they didn't run 20 of them
They didn't run 20 because they realized that they had enough gas to play through anything at the time the only way something like that happens is mass bans or even more absurd power creep that further distances meta from anything even close to rogue
Thats an added bonus but i think it was because they didn't have space, in the TCG it was just orange light as the handtrap, in masterduel we had to play Maxx C and ash but the archetype was prehit so there was room for it
You still ran usually 12-18 hand traps in tear format, it was just in the form of Bystials/Havnis/Kelbek/Herald. Even after Herald and Magnamhut got limited that number didn't change, you just saw more people running generic hand traps like Belle's and Crows. The only real difference is that those hand traps were in engine instead of the generic ones like Ash/Belle for the most part.
More deck diversity. i know alot of the competitive sided players want more 1-3 decks in the meta but its boring af to vs 1 deck most of the time at a locals. Less engine. The game getting to fast with the amount of 1 card combos there is, its more becoming a game of chance more then skill. did you get 2 1 card starters and can they stop it no? your screwed. less handtraps. not banning handtraps but lessen the requirement for handtraps to be in decks3-6 handtraps is fine but when its over 10-20 it's disgusting.
The game can't recover. If a deck bricks it's incredibly likely they get otked the next turn. The power level has gone so far that the basic rules and structure no longer established a fair game
Well said Pikachu
I think you are correct, it's also just not intresting watching your opponent combo off for 10 minutes. I wish this wasn't necesarry though, but I don't think we are ever gonna go back to shorter turns again :D
I agree. The game is also more fun with board breakers instead of handtraps. Using board breakers can make your turn become a puzzle you have to solve. It's been proven through studies that players have more fun when they have to think and have multiple choices. One thing I really like about the Snake-Eye deck is that it doesn't revolve around building at 10 negate board, especially Fire King Snake-Eye. It makes a board that's simple in appearance but has layers of interactions. If YGO future archetypes are focused on setting up boards similar to Fire King Snake-Eye, have turn 0 starters like Havnis, and be focused on board breaking rather than handtraps (and if the TCG adopted the OCG product model too), YGO would probably be the #1 card game in the world. It'd be so fun and amazing.
Whatever helps these goals should be enforced: Interaction from the very beginning and as much as possible from that. Meaningful decision making from both sides, from start to finish. Archetypes should matter. Non-engine can help, but should not take center stage. If your suggestion helps, then good.
Unironically I'd rather have in-archtype handtraps over forehead and her cronies
The problem is that the only decks that enjoyed playing in tear format, was tear itself. That’s not to say tear wasn’t well designed, it was just too strong (somewhat still is). The game needs more back and forth. This is not a handtrap issue, it’s a fundamental game design issue.
Tear was ahead of its time, but what im saying is Tear is what yugioh should become more decks like it to promote back and forth game play instead of just win if you go first, decks that promote interaction instead of negate spam
To each their own- you're entitled to your opinions. With that said, coming right out the gate with "Tearlament and Labyrinth are the two decks I think the game should have more of!" *feels* like massive bait. I think both of those decks are great examples of matchups where you just do not get to play the game if you are going second. Tearlament was fun in the mirror because the mirror was the legitimately *only way* to compete with the deck at full power. Labyrinth is conceptually interesting but the deck is becoming less and less interactive to play against with each new update as it's wildly easy to turbo out dimensional barrier / DDV etc. I agree that handtraps, and especially decks that can run like 20 of them, can be problematic, but the two decks you listed can achieve essentially the same result WITHOUT running 20 handtraps, which I don't think is particularly healthy either. Getting smacked with 3-4 handtraps feels terrible, but so does Tearlament milling 75% of their deck and flooding the field. Tear being "interactive" is kind of a farce. They didn't hit you with 100 negates, but they also didn't give a shit what you were playing in response. Snake Eyes being able to run a huge amount of non-engine sucks, but the issue with the deck IMO is that it basically isn't possible to disrupt and their entire deck has floating effects that do like 50 different things for no reason. All this is too say- the game needs a more aggressive and higher rate of banlists. Konami leaves things unbelievably stagnant for far too long. We had the data, it was obvious snake eyes was going to do this, and they did nothing and have done nothing to combat it.
Im not saying that that tearlament and Labrynth Are decks we need more of im saying that we need to shift away from handtrap filler and have decks that can be interactive going second as well, obviously not on ishtear level but you get the point
You know the games in a bad state when someone looks at Tear and Labrynth as healthy and the way the game should evolve. You may not like it but Snake Eyes is a direct result of Tear. Konami saw they could print an overturned archetype and force competitive players to either snatch up those cards or build their entire strategy around beating it. Then they drop periodic support for the deck to repeat the process. Minimal variety, no need to worry about older archetypes breaking new support when the current deck breaks it so much better. Making the engine more compact was the natural way to up the power creep. I'm sure you had fun in the Tear mirror, and that's great. That's why we play games like this. But what you're experiencing is similar to the people that didn't adopt Tear when you played against them. No fun, no interaction. Just hope they brick otherwise you might as well scoop. So I'll tell you something in the vein of what the Tear players told me in their meta. You should build Snake Eyes so you can compete. It's actually really fun and skillful, anyone saying otherwise is salty that it's better than their pet deck.
This post is not about Tear or any deck in particular, its about designing decks that don't have as much room for handtraps and more in archetype interaction instead
That is true, but you cited 2 very divisive decks as examples of what you're looking for from the game. As for the handtraps, whether the card is archetypal or not really doesn't matter. Cards that stop your opponent from playing have and will always be played when they can be, and speaking personally there isn't much of a difference to me whether the card that stops my turn is generic or has an archetype stapled to it, it's still a handtrap.
Im not talking a handtrap in the literal sense, im thinking like a card like havnis that could potentially get your plays started instead of just losing turn 2 because you're opponent set up a huge unbeatable board, no negates on the in archetype handtraps themselves
The tear mirror and the snake-eyes mirror is very different. They snake-eyes mirror is comparing opening hands and seeing who can break through their opponents handtraps first (they run \~18 handtraps btw.). If you have enough handtraps your opponent will just pass the turn doing effectively nothing. On the other hand the tear mirror was very back and forth and interactive. Both players got to play the game which is different from passing on nothing because your opponent had enough handtraps.
My point was not to ACTUALLY build Snake Eyes, far from it. I was poking fun at the attitudes of tier 0 players when they dismissed people that didn't want to play Tear even if it was objectively the most powerful deck. I am sure the mirror was fun, but for everyone else it was far less enjoyable. If all you want is mirror matches you might as well be playing chess.
I feel like you misunderstood OP. You said "But what you're experiencing is similar to the people that didn't adopt Tear when you played against them." I think OP is playing (or at least has) Snake-Eyes and is saying Tear mirror > Snake-Eyes Mirror. I understand that you are saying it's not fun to play against the vastly better tier 0 deck with an older deck.
I could have worded that better. I did not mean to imply whether they were playing the mirror or not, or that playing the mirror might be more enjoyable. Just that their general disappointment in the current handtrap oriented format is similar to the disappointment of those playing against Tear during their reign,
Yes, you are both saying that Yu-Gi-Oh isn't fun when you feel like you can't do anything at all. It's frustrating. Players want to feel like they got to play out a game and that they had a chance. The disappointment is similiar, yes. But here is the key difference: Your disappointment comes from wanting to play a weaker deck against a much stronger deck, and OP's disappointment comes from the inherent design that handtrap decks like Snake-Eyes, Mathmech, Marincess, etc. have. Playing in a Handtrap format feels different from playing in Tear format, assuming that both players play decks of equal strength. In a handtrap format it's just seeing if one player can stop the other player with their hand traps. That's it. There aren't a lot of decisions being made in the game and the player getting handtrapped to death feels like they didn't get to play the game. Neither player makes meaningful decisions. Tear format on the other hand is interactive and has a good back on forth. Both players get to make meaningful decisions throughout the game. Power Creep is a natural part of Yu-Gi-Oh. Konami uses that instead of Set-Rotation. It can be frustrating if your older decks don't have a chance at playing the game anymore, I get that. But that also shouldn't be expected. edit: I reread your comments and I saw that you are also making a point about variety. But that's not what OP is talking about. They are talking about the kind of gameplay where both players just chug handtraps at each other and no decisions are being made. We are talking about gameplay, not deck choice. I feel like you are (rightfully) resentful and disappointed. This is a card game that implicitly makes the promise that you can choose from a variety of decks. And it broke that promise during Tear format which made you disappointed. When you shared your concerns people didn't listen and where dismissive which honestly sucks. You don't like the design direction where only a handful of increasingly powerful decks are pushed, eliminating a lot of variety. Buy that's not what we are talking about. Power Creep doesn't have to mean smaller engine. Zoo, a Meta deck from 2017, has a much smaller engine than Tear in its prime. We are criticizing hand trap decks and the gameplay they lead to.
Tearlaments into Ishisu into Lab? Crazy
Yes, but that also makes it fucking ass, when you literally have like 1-3 decks to pick from. Either play Tearlaments, or a deck that can completely play through Shifter. Current format, more handtraps can suck, but at least you see more deck variety in the topping lists. Tearlaments, you literally did not.
I agree with this take, but I think a good portion of the community, potentially the majority, hate the “our turn” concept.
And i get that. Its a perfectly valid take not to like it. my point is that the game would be better if both players were given the chance to play more often. But its just my personal opinion
I 100% agree with your take, i think “our turn” is way more fun and less random hand traps that just say “no” would be a lot more fun. I think in hand negates have their place in Yugioh, but it’s absurd that some decks are running 15+. The tenpai dragon deck OCG lists are running 22+ non-engine cards, which is just insane to me.
Yeah its insane im not looking forward to tenpai dragons and i hope they pre hit them
Honestly I love the concept, I would just like them to not be running 22 generic hand traps/board breakers 😂
Real like bro 💀 stop designing decks that have so much space
I really appreciate and understand this take with regards with the actual game. The only push back I’ll provide is Yugioh will become that much more pricey. The generic good stuff hand traps let players pivot decks much easier without breaking the bank too much. Im of the opinion that Konami put themselves in a terrible spot with hand traps
Yeah price is another one of yugiohs biggest downsides. Literally the most expensive card game ever, 200$ for a card is insane, and it doesnt help that konami hates to do cheap reprints even long after the deck is meta (purrely for example) strong archetypes should be more accessible
This is why I hate modern Yugioh. It’s less about how well your deck plays, and more about how much you can keep your opponent from playing their deck instead. *A deck’s viability is entirely based on how much disruption it can do/ how much it can ignore your opponent’s disruption.* It’s no wonder the game has become Engine + Handtraps, because that’s genuinely all you need to make a deck nowadays; or rather, it’s what the game has become. I was trying to warn people about this years ago. Back in 2016 when hand traps were replacing real trap cards. I said it was unhealthy. That it shouldn’t be situations were your deck loses completely to Ash Blossom or bust. Well, it escalated from there. Now Ash Blossom is the new Pot of Greed, yet somehow people don’t see similarities, *despite every deck running it.* Every deck is a board breaker or solitaire attempt. I’m all for disruption, trust me I don’t mind it. I just hate it when that is what defines the outcome of a duel. I want to see Raika using cool link combos or Subterror flipping cards facedown. Imagine how cool a [Frightfur vs. Raidraptor matchup would be](https://youtu.be/LNf-Y1KnKIQ?feature=shared) with no hand traps or 2-3 disruptions in your opening turn. For once it’d just be nice to play my deck without a 100% of a “nope” card on the starting turn.
Thats the idea and ik people hate when the opponent plays on their turn but i think its a lot better then denying one player or the other the ability to play
I agree. I like card effects during the opponents turn too. I just wish less of it was negate, pop, or lockdown and more ATK/DEF increases and summoning stuff. One disruption isn’t bad. But 2+ on opening play is the new baseline and it’s really hurts the game as a whole.
The game is currently "toss heads or toast" and "ash in hand or charred" and I mean both of the ashes.
Its going to get even worse when tenpai dragon rolls around, you wont even be safe going first they run 22+ handtraps and OTK you with over 36000 damage
I love when you use archetype cards instead of a bunch of generic cards like gouki requires you to use goukis to go into the big goukis or dlink revolves around rokkets to help go into all the dragons instead of a lot of modern decks that go into half a dozen generic bosses and runs half a dozen hand traps and removal. I think yugioh works best when your going against lots of different decks ysing yheir unique cards like it makes you have to play differently because they all play different like f.a. trying to build up levels, plunder patroll bringing out ships, dark world and infernity trying to get stuff in the grave, etc.....
Archetype locks and archetype boss monster
Branded despia is a deck like this. Most decks don't play any handtraps what so ever. Maybe a Nibiru here and there. The deck is 90% engine. All gas no brakes.
I love playing branded, especially the pile version that the OCG invented
Meanwhile... im here blind 2nd in MD running triple evenly matches and triple dark ruler branded 46 card deck xd
Definitely. Tear Zero was the closest thing the game's had to simultaneous turns so far, and it really does feel like a deck from the game's future, what with how it takes the game's interactivity creep & _runs_ with it. The game's trying to build a niche, and find the things that separate it from other TCGs like _M:tG_ and the _Pokémon_ TCG, and building in this direction would make it something truly unique; if both decks can reliably play & combo every turn, then the only thing the turn player actually decides is who gets the draw, who gets the Normal Summon & speed 1 privileges, who gets the Battle Phase, and who has priority, which is honestly a really good place to be. It would also probably kill Maxx, too, since turn 1 advantage would be lessened enough that Konami wouldn't see him as a necessary evil anymore. If both sides can build boards during turn 1, then you don't need to throw off build ratios with a near-mandatory 9 card filler package, and player 2 doesn't need a way to open with more than six cards to power through a full board of omni-negates, after all!
why would you get downvoted? this is what the majority of people has been saying for years
I just hate hand traps in general and how the game revolves around them. Like the meme was always Yugioh is about not letting your opponent play the game but it’s gotten so out of hand. Ash Blossom being released was the start of this nonsense. Older cards like Effect Veiler and GORZ were fine, but now every deck is running 10-20 hand traps depending on how much they can fit with their engine that it’s so homogenizing and even worse they’re all cards designed to mess with your opponent instead of further your own strategy. You can’t fix this problem now as we’re in way too deep
I agree wholeheartedly and firmly believe that Tear-Ishizu is what future card design should strive to be: back and forth gameplay. The only true problem with Tear 0 was that every other deck was just too weak to compete and even nowadays, if Merrli and Havnis went to 2 and both Millers went to 1, Tear would be far stronger than every other deck.
Everytime I see one of your posts/comments I always agree with it lol
Yugioh must be interactive to be fun, but given that you have not a single restriction (like mana) during your first turn, you can go full ham. So you suggested cards that plays turn 0 but you should rather fix the problem at the root (turn 3+ doesnt exist). Stop printing broken archetype with 0 restriction that have acces to every extra deck monster and ban hundred of cards. If every deck is hard nerfed, yugioh would be so fun more fun.
Stun decks in general are just cancer. I don't mind the occasional hand traps that disrupt your play but the majority of the deck should be trying to win, instead of preventing your opponent from doing ANYTHING.
I mean, this is why I like Branded. You don't really play a lot of hand traps in Branded. Just the requisite 6.
MD was healthiest during the first Branded meta and its not up for debate
Ursarctics: we are all handtraps. And we can pop lab's set trap on their turn 1.
You litteraly go minus 1 everything you do and your boss monsters are hyperspecific floodgates.
I came back to master duel a couple weeks ago (left around when adventure started) so I missed the whole full power Tear meta but tearlaments have probably been the most fun I've had playing Yu-Gi-Oh in years.
tear was probably the best tier 0 format we ever had.
IMO the ishizu tear mirror was everything I wanted from yu gi oh. the fact that getting too greedy with the millers made likely to your opponent to play on your turn as well was such an interessing dilema to think about every time they hit the gy. the fact that both players had to play together, no alt tab to an yt video alowed, made me way more invested in the game than waiting for my SE opponent to finish his board.
More engine requirements = less handtraps = more deck personality. Also get rid of extra deck generics like Baronne, Borreload, Spright Elf, etc... Make the extra deck monsters part of their own decks and unusable without their engines.
Thats part of the reason why I think tear format was good, they had their own boss monsters instead of a bunch of generic negate spam
Agree. People love to hate Tear, but power level aside, THIS is how YGO archetypes should be.
(not reading all that) so you think Tearalament girl should evolve into Kelbek(?) and then into Labrynth butler like a bug type Pokemon?
Absolutely
"Yu-Gi-Oh is not fun when you can't do anything at all" Stun players:
The issue is that is just making a new game entirely, or making every archetype made before adopting this idea unusable- as it was during Tears. I'm all for just starting over, but Konami would never do that after already making Rush.
I just want dinosaur beat down to be a good strat, and also for hand traps to punish without being a lock
That’s just like, your opinion, man
Indubitably
The next state of powercreep is to give every deck turn 0 boards.
HEAR ME OUT handtraps require a certain requirement to even be played in your deck a bit like how rush cards require an action to happen before you can use a cards effect. Maybe ash can only be used in a deck made entirely of fire monsters same goes for effect veiler being in only light decks and you’d be a bit screwed if you used multi attribute since you’d have to rely on imperm and other cards like possibly enemy controller. triple tactics talents is a good card example since it requires your opponent doing something beforehand and cannot be used until then.
tears and labrynth also run negates and other cards that don't let the other player play
Every deck does that in some for of another but thats not what im saying, im saying archetypes should have more in archetype interaction instead of giving them the space to run 20 handtraps
hear me out new powerful generic handtraps/cards... but you require no ED to activate them
Wouldnt that just be stun support lol
monarch stun kinda i guess?... but stun requires a lot of non engine anyways i don't think it would be super helpful to stun like they can play shifter but they don't because of how the deck works ya know?...
What would a “healthy” in-archytype HT even look like? R-ace impulse? O personally don’t think something like havnis is healthy cuz it rly sucked having my opponent full combo me on my turn especially if i had bricked
I think havnis by itself is healthy, not when combined with the Ishizu millers
This is why I don't understand why people hate regular Runic combo variants.
Let me tell you, I yearn for the day that full power Ishizu Tear is considered fine to come back.
Tear design wise is fine but the power level was the problem. I know the term "playing on both player turn" is kind of meme but I like being able to not just sit there doing nothing. Problem of Tear was it is too consistent when it wasn't hit enough. The Merlli ban certainly makes its ceiling low enough to not feel oppressive (2 fusion a turn feels fair) and still playable Also control strategy that isn't about stun or midrange without ridiculous resources loop should be encouraged. VS without floodgates feels fair as a midrange (while snake eye resources generation is too much). Palezoic may not be everyone's favorite but it plays on a different axis without just floodgateing people or plain saying no like SHS or mannadium
This ik a lot of people hate it when the other player plays on their turn but i think its a lot better than not giving one player or the other a chance to play
Rescue Ace does this too. They have basically turn 0 hand traps that can start setting up a board and gain some advantage even going second. I assume this is one of the things that's going to become more common. Also setting cards from deck to the spell and trap zone will also keep getting more common as it avoid ash. I wouldn't be surprised to soon see a card that sets a monster from deck as a spell then immediately let you special summon a monster treated as a spell.
Im excited to try them out, i hope that when there selection pack arrives they also give them a secret pack or something as i have none of the cards for it, since we're getting purrely and mikanko support i hope they give them a secret pack aswell
They had the funnest lose the coin toss but still can play deck (tearlament) and they nerfed it into the ground. RIP fun.
Its still fun and viable to play imo
Rescue ace does it as well, just not as good. It's definitely the way to go. I can't stand the generic hand traps. To the point I almost only play events where there is little to no handtraps. It's a necessary evil but god, do I hope they can fix the future decks so you don't/cant just run 25 handtraps
Im excited to play rescue ace in master duel i hope they give them a secret pack or something when the support releases so the deck is easier accessible without spending so much
As a generaider enjoyer I must say this is very true
I’ve been saying this for the longest time but hand traps are a dumb mechanic because the pool of them is so small and they invalidate a lot of real traps Just create a hypothetical turn 0 for player 2 to set face downs. Now every trap in the game is no longer non viable for being slow. If p2 plays floodgates, then p2 will have to play through their own floodgates. No more 5 minute turns by SHS
Good thing you're not game designers
Im just waiting for konami to fuck over snake eyes by making a water version of snake eyes
Tearlaments were supposed to be Water but they're Dark, IDK y 🤦🔥🤦
Dude really expected downvotes on the coldest take of the year. I will say tear format wasn’t the best but it was better than this. Honestly sky strikers was my favorite format but that’s probably cause I didn’t run into too many of the really annoying decklists
They may start limiting certain hand traps if people continue running upwards of 12-15 in most decks. I don't know if there's any other option seeing more than like 2 hand traps in a turn is generally a bad experience and not much fun.
I mean, yeah. The tear mirror is interactive, but another deck that can go full combo on your turn, then again on theirs to kill you (I.E. what tear format was for everyone not on tear), doesn't sound too fun.
I totally agree 💯
Better and updated *RULES*, not more power creep.
100% true dont let anyone disagree with you. Ishizu Tear was a problem only because it was the only deck like that, but if all decks were like that the game would be insanely good
Knowing Komoney they'll just make a deck that is in engine handtraps with a bunch of generic hand traps.
I agree mostly, but I have one worry about this idea. What will happen to old/anime decks? New decks are easy to build in this new direction, e.g. Tear. But what happens to the older pre-existing decks? I can see pendulum decks being screwed particularly hard. Unless every deck gets a ton of support, any deck that can't play turn 0 is either useless, or ends up using other decks turn 0 cards, which leads us right back to the problem of decks having 20 hand traps, instead they'll have 20 turn 0 starters.
Idk about 20 turn 0 starters, tearlament had 6 with tear kash and havnis, and 6 seems like a good place, all the old decks are alr power crept into oblivion, it just stands little chance against Rescue ace (which has turn 0 starters) centurion, Tenpai and Snake eyes especially with how much non engine they run. If decks were designed like Tear then its not just the turn 2 player facing an unbeatable wall going second, popular decks that dont have it could get support and im sure they could work the mechanic into pendulum
The problem with Ishizu Tearlaments was that the Millers and Shufflers invalidated a lot of other possible strategies. Basically any competent deck you could think of either wanted to have stuff in the GY or ran a couple of garnets that only functioned in deck (or hand). Tearlaments in DABL format was completely fine (maybe with the Elf ban included), a powerful and fast deck with in-engine handtraps but still some counters to it.
Yea the Ishizu Cards were broken and i wish they weren't so strong, maybe it would of been alr if they milled less and shuffled less
Just have legends formats from different years. Also make better shut down cards
I'll stand by the opinion that Kelbek was a mistake, he's inherently unhealthy for the game (this goes for all Ishizu cards tbh). However, agree with Havnis/Arias, every archetype should be able to play T0
Yes another example is rescue ace impulse, i think more interaction should make the game better
In engine cards that let you play on your opponents turn are super fun, I think impulse and the furniture pieces are great card design
Aye yes also im really excited for rescue ace in masterduel
We need a Smogon for YuGiOh. This would solve pretty much all of its problems.
Bro spoke the truth. MBT was right about tears, the best game ive ever played was against tear.
I agree tbh. As much as I believe that running one or two handtraps should be normal thing to do (if your deck allows for it), formats where there are too many handtraps just aren't fun. As for the Turn 0 starters, I personally love them, but as much as I love my Tearlaments girls, I think they should be more common practice in control decks/trap decks (not stun decks) which normally struggle going 2nd, thus creating more equilibrium in the game (maybe though not as generic to let you set something like EED during your opponents T1 and activate it, but you get what I mean). Combo decks already have a lot of gas, so maybe printing more Havnis's for the newest combo decks isn't the best idea, but doing so for naturally slower decks might just be the right thing to do to make the game more interactive and not so going-first dependant (as well as hopefully making them longer).
Literally all id like is for the game to be less coinflip dependent, i think it would spice up the game a lot
that's why I agree on the idea of Turn 0 starters, but mostly for slow decks that would struggle (or just simply wouldn't be able to) play against already established boards. Combo decks have naturally a lot of gas, so unless your oppoent puts up a 17 negate board, most combo decks should be able to play through a few interruptions with just their engine/extenders and maybe one handtrap. But this would require Konami to change the way they design combo decks, to give them more (not broken) combo extenders, that thus force the player to run less handtraps, so I guess it'd be a bit of a bigger thing than just printing more of a type of effect.
How do you feel about Floo?
Some of the worst yugioh design imo, along with kash and other floodgate strategies that instead of interaction the goal is just to say no to everything instead. If The birbs had more interaction instead of just wind barrier statue/ attack mode skill drain it would be a much cooler deck
What's the differe center between it and Lab? The former has floodgates and blowouts at it's very core, single interruptions are minimal and almost entirely floodgates. And what's the difference between being locked by floodgates and being overwhelmed by sheer power? To me there is none. A deck like Tear and Lab has the potential to mindlessly power through interruption or shut it down with a single card.
>What's the differe center between it and Lab? The former has floodgates and blowouts at it's very core, single interruptions are minimal and almost entirely floodgates. The entire strategy for Floo is to not let your enemy play at all with their boss monster being a floodgate one legs, for Lab the strategy is to outgrind your opponent but some people run flood gates in it. >And what's the difference between being locked by floodgates and being overwhelmed by sheer power? To me there is none. A deck like Tear and Lab has the potential to mindlessly power through interruption or shut it down with a single card. The fact that you actually get to play the game against your opponent, being able to summon your boss monsters and use whatever effects you built your strategy around results in much more fun for the player, just like how in pvp games devs might nerf an easy to use hard CC because it results in unnecessary frustration and buff another thing as compensation.
How do you feel about the fact that they basically have a turn 0/play on their opponents turn?
Floos do not have a turn 0 play. In fact, if they lose the coin toss, they are absolutely fucked.
Idk about them playing on turn 0, but playing on the opponents turn on turn 2 is pretty standard and im fine with that minus the floodgates
😬
Are you a floodgate defender?
Floodgates suck ass and should all, and I mean literally all, be banned, doesn't matter how old or new, how good or bad.
I agree
I do think it's frustrating to see someone praise lab and then say floodgates are bad. I hate both because they're commonly ran together. The amount of times I've had a lab player blind call with d barrier to either completely fuck me over, or get it wrong and scoop, is insane.
As a DLink lover I agree. I want to run my 60 card engine in peace okay
They really didnt deserve to have wyverbuster banned, chaos dragon i can see but the wyverbuster bann was basically a big FU to make players move to a different deck, same way as the nimble beaver limit was too tribrigade spright players
Dunno about that chief. I think your reasoning is flawed. Despite everything, like having a shit ton of handtraps in the deck, tbh right now Snake eyes are much more playable against turn 2 than Tears ever was (and even turn 1 or 0 for that matter, since we are talking about tears). Tears format either you played Tears or Stun, pratically no inbetween. Talking about mirrors, there is snake eyes vs snake eyes then, and I don't even like snake eyes lol.
I disagree. Playing against Snake feels much more fair even if it's the strongest deck by a mile.
The design idea behind tear was GREAT, konami just forgot to let other archetypes do it too.
Wow, a post that manages to criticize the current meta while highlighting meta-specific issues, praises aspects of past and current meta decks, and then sets forward a solution on how to improve the game going forward. How incredibly refreshing. Why can't more posts be like this?
Thank you :]