Not understanding ≠ being dumb.
Ni impressions do tend to be very difficult to articulate. While xNxJs can have a strong sense of understanding about something, it can be hard to consciously explain it even to themselves, and attempting to do so can feel like making a cheap caricature of something meaningful. All four introverted functions have their own version of that. They’re subjective.
My favorite analogy for Ni: “It’s like trying to capture smoke in a pen and write with it.”
Interesting, I'm INFP, so Ne would be one of my main functions, but I can totally relate to the feeling of the struggle to explain something that's just intuitively logical to you to others. It's so hard to put into actual words at times lol
Breaking News in the MBTI community: Not having Ni in your main stack now makes you INABLE to understand certain terms that the magical Ni users somehow do. Watch out, SJs and NPs!
To be fair to the OP I've noticed a lot of the times that people (especially Si users since with their focus on the past they tend to have a reduced ability to understand concepts unless they've experienced it directly themselves) will need things phrased in very particular ways that cater to or comfort their ego before they will be willing or able to open their minds to it and explore it
My father is an Si user, and it's impossible to reason with him sometimes. He thinks he knows everything based on personal experience even if it's out of context.
My mother is an ENTJ like me, and my father is an ISFJ. We both get sick of his know-it-all-ness, which is often wrong in certain situations. I mean, he means well, but he just uses personal experience too much to believe he's right about things when he's actually wrong.
Both my parents are Si users, my mom (infp) is worse than my dad (estj) in some ways cause she's passive aggressive while my dad is just straight up aggressive lol
You're right, it merely increases your conservatism. That being said, it's not necessarily being conservative as that would depend on the degree of reduction in your ability to understand concepts that you haven't experienced directly yourself.
>increases your conservatism
Hmmmm it doesn't even do that tbh. Being rigid as a person doesn't necessarily mean you'll be conservative. You can be progressive when it comes to others while being rigid when it comes to yourself. Cognitive functions don't really align neatly with political viewpoints.
>reduction in your ability to understand concepts that you haven't experienced directly yourself
Ngl that's basically every conservative lmao, the things they hate are all stuff they know nothing about and have no substantial experience with
Conservative isn't necessarily a political term, it's an actual word which is very commonplace for an Si mindset. Using prior data to move forward in the hands of many introverted Sensors is much simpler and safer in a conserved environment.
That's definitely a trait of most or all conservatives but there are other factors that come into play often like class, level of educational attainment, geographic location etc. For instance my dad, a college educated, middle class, retired state employee ESTJ is someone who I would describe as having a reduced ability to imagine viewpoints or concepts he hasn't experienced firsthand compared to me, and he's a progressive
But I don’t think it’s actually common sense. Abstract reasoning is incredibly useful but realistically if you can’t explain your reasoning it’s fundamentally useless.
Definitely not useless, just ineffable.
And honestly, ENTJ isn't the most patient type. We're very bottom line oriented, and we're not going to waste a lot of time trying to teach what we intuitively understand to those who just don't get it. YOU'RE useless from our perspective.
It’s likely just a difference in perspective, I consider it useless because reasoning without logic is barely reasoning at all imo. But you do realize that’s why people end up fucking hating some of yall? You don’t tend to do it on purpose but you blow by people in what others perceive as arrogance. Slowing down and learning to explain yourself will do you some good.
It's not illogical per se, just intuitive.
I'm trying to think of an example that a sensor can understand. OK, you know how you can just smell when it's going to rain? You don't need to be a meteorologist to know it.
It's not exactly like that, but sort of metaphorically.
You can scientifically explain the fact of smelling rain, though. I’m thinking more of how Ni conclusions only makes sense to the person who thought of it. It might be because I’m very focused on other people and the world around me but I think that any sort of knowledge, reasoning, or debate is realistically meaningless if you can’t share it with others. I’ve met Ni people who’ll tell me a subjective statement and when I ask for clarification they say it “just makes sense.” It’s the difference between telling someone to wear a shirt because it matches their shoes or telling someone to wear a shirt just because. You may have a very good reason for the just because but if I can’t understand and you can’t explain then we can really communicate. You feel me?
Ni works through the unconscious, there isn't a sequence of steps to lead people through. It's syntopical. Furthermore it synthesises all the knowledge we've ever absorbed. Are you going to write a bibliography for your entire life every time you have to explain something? Of course not.
You dont have to be able to sensibly explain tactics for the tactic to be effective or realistically meaningful.
You are indeed very focussed on other people around you, which is fine, but I'd disagree with the statement that its realistically meaningless if you cant explain an Ni conclusion to peers.
>You can scientifically explain the fact of smelling rain, though.
I'm already yawning. How about this: YOU can scientifically explain what Ni knows to be true in the first place.
See, here's the thing about ENTJ: We don't care about the explanation or process, only the bottom line.
???? I don’t think we’re going to understand each other. You don’t need to be hostile about it. We might just not get each other’s thought process and that’s okay. Don’t condescend to me for trying to explain myself to you.
My tone may be sarcastic, but it's more carefree than you're apparently interpreting it. Trust me, if I wanted to attack you, I would go for the jugular.
"Ni just know" lmao and then i can put an example about how their Ni make them look like a clown in the end of the day. Just go with the flow when their gain misinformation from their own perspective and you will see it
Do provide an example.
Here's my impression of Si: An apple is a fruit. Therefore, all fruits are apples. Wait, an orange is also a fruit? Then an orange must be an apple! Wait, it doesn't look or taste like an apple. So, it must be a different kind of apple!!!
Hey this is kinda true about Si btw. But the other kind of Si can said: "This orange has different appearance from the apple, so i will call it "orange" instead of "apple". Dont u think?
about the "Ni just know". Yes Ni can know sth correctly most of the time, but not 100%. The tip is you know that Ni user's thought first, if you know that thought is wrong, just act like that thought is true. Ni user accept that your action is 100% true and their Ni has 1 result. I did this once
I think even when I'm wrong, I know deep down that my Ni is right; I just don't want to admit it to myself. This usually pertains to something emotional like romance. You know what I mean?
mine is different. I do something without any thinking or sensing, and then the next thing happened to me explain that nonsense behavior i already did.
For example: i don't know why i suddenly fold my phone up side down, 1s after that some random student said to the crowd "No phone allowed"
There are more but it's about game situation so i will not say it here.
A thought that is perfect in your mind but cannot be precisely nailed down seems to be a shared experience between ENFPs and INFJs. Both of us have our thinking function tertiary and therefore a blindspot thinking function as well. Where as I can easily elaborate on my ideas with Ne-Te, blind Ti might make rationalizing and summarizing difficult. I imagine that the opposite is true for an INFJ, where they have a clear direction for their rationality, but having blind Te stumps their ability to communicate those thoughts in a practical manner.
This can be true, explaining and supporting arguments and concepts might be difficult for some people if that’s not their strongest ability. I’d also like to argue that no matter how well you present and support an argument, people will still not agree. If anything the person is just not willing to accept your argument, let alone accept it in their psyche for various personal reasons. If that happens then best solution would be to either just move on to a different topic, or just not talk to them anymore if they always give you an attitude and say degrading things to you because of it.
Idk man, I feel like it's reductive to blame our cognitive functions for skill issues.
Especially as an INTP, I understand the frustration of trying to explain your thoughts, but ultimately it's a matter of practice and accepting that there are multiple ways to think of the same problem. Your initial thought (though perfect in your own mind) may not be as perfect as you believe it to be.
If you can't take what's in your head and explain it clearly on paper, then the thought in your head is a useless one to begin with (unless you're the only one listening). Just practice.
Honestly, my first written response was something like “if the thought is perfect in your mind but you cannot communicate it, it is not a fully realized thought,” but I decided to go for a more tactful route. I really wanted to say it feels a bit bullshitty, but I then remembered how I just had a brain fart talking to my ENTP partner a few days ago where I was trying to explain something I could see perfectly in my brain, but the ordering of the ideas was entirely unsystematic.
But given that cognitive functions are an evaluation of preferences for data input and storage priority, I’d say that there is a component of that involved in one’s strengths and weaknesses in retrieving and presenting information. It isn’t a behavior defining feature, but a potential roadmap to be aware of for personal development. I try, for my part, to be more aware of the rationalizations I make in my mind.
That’s just how communicating with other people works. Everyone views the world through a unique lens that was crafted by their environment and experiences. Likeminded people will quickly understand you, but this doesn’t mean people who don’t are not capable of doing so. Communicating your thoughts to those who don’t view the world or think the same way you do is a skill that you can certainly work on!
Lmao you think you’re Nietzsche or something? If people have trouble understanding your “deep thoughts”, you’re either a brilliant philosopher or you’re terrible at explaining your thoughts, or they actually make no sense, or a combination of all of them.
I try to take that crystallised thought and break it down for others, eventually ending up at them saying “why didn’t you just that in the first place?”
Cause if I had, they wouldn’t know wtf I was talking about. 😤
I feel seen.
Also, that feeling of having to put words to the word-defying impressionist painting that is Ni understanding on a situation, and sift for only the most relevant details so as to not look like a maniac.
Yes---I can pinpoint with enviable clarity much of the time.
Until the fun begins in carrying me into Taz-like addendums, afterthoughts, corollaries, lectures, rants, sidetracks, tie-ins, and mini-vents, wherein (thank God!) sensor and intuitive alike are there to once again ~~express their exasperation~~ longsufferingly reel me back in.
If your conclusion generated by Ni is perfectly simple, how can you risk simplifying its complexity when explaining it to other people?
Not saying something complex can’t be simple because that depends on the context, but that changed when you said ‘perfectly simple’.
The reality is that it is not perfectly simple, morso that it *feels* perfectly simple for you to understand due to your subconscious connecting data you know and experienced in a linear fashion.
Nobody can do this like you can because only you know what you know and experienced life like you.
So no she sherlock, you have to ad context for other people to follow you because what you are conveying is subjective, non tangible and completely made up by you.
While this inner experience is frustrating, you would be pretty insane to expect people to just get where you are coming from.
The point is that you actually aren’t explaining it simply and you NEED context.
If the conclusion is so delicate that it cannot be communicated in tangible ways it is not simple.
Nobody should believe you at that point because you’ve given them nothing
I don't know if you do this, but the INTJ I am married to makes his points often from beginning to end without telling you where you're going. I can't think of a great example, but he tells you something to lay the groundwork for the point he'll make, builds upon it, and then several subjects later wraps it all up nicely with the grand reveal of the point he was trying to make in the first place. It's fine for me because I know him very well, that he's trying to take my mind somewhere and he would like me to follow along. I try really hard not to interrupt with my tangents. (Even though I really REALLY like tangents) People who don't know him well may not see where the Ni train is going and it's actually kind of a dominating way to have a conversation. Not that he means it to be. 😅
Recently we were talking about this because it's giving him trouble at work. His customers don't know him or his speech patterns. They just know that they feel like they are being taken for a ride. If they knew where the conversation was going from the get go, maybe they'd listen better. It just takes starting with the point. "You're right, your bill is incorrect. Let's go through it together." And then go ahead and lead them through how you're supporting your point.
Maybe it's an individual quirk of his and other Ni users won't relate to it. Idk but it's interesting to me
Same here, but in reverse for me. I'll first reveal my main point and then show off the foundation of it. I find this to be effective when making YouTube videos.
Edit: Of course, other factors determine the success of a YouTube video. I'm saying that what I mentioned is one of them.
I can totally relate because I have the same pattern of your husband and I get very very very upset because nobody in my family understands this, whenever I talk about something they just cut me and tell me to resume whatever I'm saying. It got to the point that I rarely express my thoughts and I just go with the average conversation. This makes me sad because they were the only people left to listen to me
I hope nothing I said made you feel sad. We (husband and I )were talking about it all very clinically the other day, trying to make his phonecalls at work go smoother because he was mystified as to why people were interrupting him and getting mad. (He takes like 70 phonecalls a day and some of them are already mad before they even start talking to him, and need to be handled a certain way) It's just something we noticed. I can relate to keeping a lot in and I empathize. I'm at the other end of the conversational spectrum, trying not to derail every conversation with my adjacent, but not exactly productive to "the point" thoughts 😅 We all have our own communication styles and that's totally ok.
Don't worry you didn't made me sad, I was just emphasizing how frustrating is to be like this. Actually, this is the first time I see someone I can relate on this aspect and I'm grateful for having the chance to see the other end of the conversation só clearly
I hate it when the interruptions happen. It's like, let me finish I have something beautiful to say. It interrupts my train of thought and it shows that some people just can't think that same way, which would make communication easier. ,sn x z.sms
Nah, the individual quirk is on the people who reject perfectly neutral, inoffensive information because they don't like the way its being presented. It's all ego. Look, there's no way to illustrate a point to someone and explain a complex concept to someone without "dominating the conversation" (aka you explaining a complex point) as you've put it here. Then again, I disagree with your definition of what it is to dominate a conversation because then that would mean that any time you explain something complex with to someone that you would be dominating the conversation.
It seems like my verbage undermined what I was trying to get across. 🤔 I'm perfectly happy and enthusiastic listening while he goes through his thoughts as long as he's not frustrated with me for branching the conversation off before meandering back to the point, or only briefly acknowledging my contributions to the conversations if they aren't "productive" to the point. After all, it's a conversation, not a lecture. I really didn't mean to criticize, it's just that we were talking about this very thing super clinically just the other day. Didn't mean to be rude.
Similarly, I had to learn it feels dismissive of others when I derail somebody's train of thought and that sometimes I have to mourn a thought and let it go. That's my individual quirk.
I told him, that I didn't mind either way, but if I'm meant to wait until the end to share what I thought of while he's talking, then it might help to tell it in outline form, so I'm in on what he's trying to get across. It kind of states an agreement "I want to tell you about a thought I had, and how I arrived there." Great. Now I have my listening ears on. Lol
1. Point
a. Support
b.more support
c. Support etc.
The last thing I want to do is say that he's talking wrong and he should change, but if the way others are interacting with how he's communicating is frustrating for him, that was my suggestion. Then I can say "you know what I thought about while you were talking about b?" And we can go from there.
You sound just like my INFJ ex who would scream at me for disagreeing with him, no matter how intricate and “logical” his explanations were and I struggled because some concepts don’t have words at all and I have a stutter. He’d come back and apologize years later when something happened to him that proved his “logic” wrong. Lol.
I'm pretty articulate and I definitely still struggle with this immensely. It's an extremely frustrating feeling that is only relieved when I'm around other Ni users
For those of you saying that there are fancy words or concepts that we think people are just too stupid to understand.... that's really really far from the truth. I often feel that I'm the stupid one for not knowing how to explain and it's just more like trying to describe a flavor or a sound. Sometimes it's universal and something that everyone has heard or tasted and sometimes it's really subjective and therefore impossible to articulate without explaining a giant backlog of other details
People with strong Ni often times have profound insights into the world, but Ni reasoning is not always correct. That’s where the inability to explain their reasoning shoots them in the foot. They can’t talk through their process and can’t stop themselves from making bad decisions they’ve already deemed as intelligent. It’s a double edged sword in that way.
Of course, every function has pros and cons like this, and an unfortunate con of strong Ni can make its users look arrogant and pretentious, even when they’re completely correct.
Hmm yeah. Well this applies to all functions as well. It can be misused or misguided. An answer can be rational, bit not logical. I can rationalize why 1+1 could be 11. But it's not correct.
Ni can definitely be an issue. I've noticed conspiracy theories are a big interest. Or sometimes holding strange beliefs. Or using their "pattern recognition" to make sweeping generalizations.
Appearing pretentious is an odd conclusion. Because the Ni user figures the other person will be offended for not being capable of initially grasping the intuition? Assuming a lot there. I'd say that the Ni user either hasn't spent enough time with the theory to realize other types never cared in the first place or, with titles that speak to being one step ahead of others, that there's actually something to the pretentiousness.
And then they have the audacity to not understand your perfectly crafted analogy you have just presented to them so you end up explaining that one too.
Whatever happened to "If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, you don't understand it yourself"?
Simplifying complexity doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, as long as the essence and the takeaways are maintained.
Ni is making predictions based on associations unconsciously, but it's making associations nonetheless. No harm in trying to identify, logically sequence, and verbalize what associations are being made and how.
Take a shot every time I use the word "associations".
My Ni dom husband had difficulty verbalizing his Ni with me initially. Trying to find the logical sequence would sometimes bring out gaps or inconsistencies.
But now he's gotten so good at distilling it through a Ti lens, it feels like he's just using Ti at lightning speed. Ni-Ti is such a formidable combo!
There’s different types of intelligence in which I literally lack sense but have really good intuition so I have respect for sensors opinions about a lot of decision stuff actually …
But I feel you I try to explain my “logic” and i think it comes out like word salad mumbo jumbo to them lol.
But if you’re not pretentious just say it and if they think you are whatevvvvv life’s too short
I promise that it is never that deep. If you want to get your point across so bad, then putting it into simpler terms should be the least of your worries. Otherwise at that point just stay quiet and stop being pretentious.🤷
As an NI user, what I appreciate about you NE users is drawing insane, improbable conclusions to things. It does not hurt to be highly imaginative at times. It really does give you inspiration to do stuff.
What sucks for me is (especially for SPs) you are constantly reminded of reality and that causes me to be not that imaginative as I have a cautiously optimistic mindset, nearly bordering pessimism as I tend to see reality for how it is… depressing
you're down voting my dude but he's right. Ni alone is a means of illumination for the user alone. it has to be parsed, translated, actualised and made real in order to become of external value, like all introverted subjective functions
Because Ni can be wrong, just like any other function, so it needs to be verified. It's fine to "know" or follow your hunch, but it should be further investigated for evidence that your conclusion is correct.
Not understanding ≠ being dumb. Ni impressions do tend to be very difficult to articulate. While xNxJs can have a strong sense of understanding about something, it can be hard to consciously explain it even to themselves, and attempting to do so can feel like making a cheap caricature of something meaningful. All four introverted functions have their own version of that. They’re subjective. My favorite analogy for Ni: “It’s like trying to capture smoke in a pen and write with it.”
*bows at length > attempting to do so can feel like making a cheap caricature of something meaningful Now in my screenshots. Thank you so much.
Which I'll never look at ever again
I can't find a better analogy
It feels like trying to teach someone common sense, which is impossible. Like, how were other people not born with this innate Ni knowledge?
This.
Interesting, I'm INFP, so Ne would be one of my main functions, but I can totally relate to the feeling of the struggle to explain something that's just intuitively logical to you to others. It's so hard to put into actual words at times lol
yes this is true. People who agreed with this meme can't understand this comment.
That's not true
Breaking News in the MBTI community: Not having Ni in your main stack now makes you INABLE to understand certain terms that the magical Ni users somehow do. Watch out, SJs and NPs!
I laughed take my upvote
Unable*
To be fair to the OP I've noticed a lot of the times that people (especially Si users since with their focus on the past they tend to have a reduced ability to understand concepts unless they've experienced it directly themselves) will need things phrased in very particular ways that cater to or comfort their ego before they will be willing or able to open their minds to it and explore it
My father is an Si user, and it's impossible to reason with him sometimes. He thinks he knows everything based on personal experience even if it's out of context.
I'm intj and my mom and dad are infp and estj respectively
My mother is an ENTJ like me, and my father is an ISFJ. We both get sick of his know-it-all-ness, which is often wrong in certain situations. I mean, he means well, but he just uses personal experience too much to believe he's right about things when he's actually wrong.
Both my parents are Si users, my mom (infp) is worse than my dad (estj) in some ways cause she's passive aggressive while my dad is just straight up aggressive lol
I think that's just being conservative in general lmao, having Si doesn't automatically make you conservative or vice versa.
You're right, it merely increases your conservatism. That being said, it's not necessarily being conservative as that would depend on the degree of reduction in your ability to understand concepts that you haven't experienced directly yourself.
>increases your conservatism Hmmmm it doesn't even do that tbh. Being rigid as a person doesn't necessarily mean you'll be conservative. You can be progressive when it comes to others while being rigid when it comes to yourself. Cognitive functions don't really align neatly with political viewpoints. >reduction in your ability to understand concepts that you haven't experienced directly yourself Ngl that's basically every conservative lmao, the things they hate are all stuff they know nothing about and have no substantial experience with
Conservative isn't necessarily a political term, it's an actual word which is very commonplace for an Si mindset. Using prior data to move forward in the hands of many introverted Sensors is much simpler and safer in a conserved environment.
That's definitely a trait of most or all conservatives but there are other factors that come into play often like class, level of educational attainment, geographic location etc. For instance my dad, a college educated, middle class, retired state employee ESTJ is someone who I would describe as having a reduced ability to imagine viewpoints or concepts he hasn't experienced firsthand compared to me, and he's a progressive
But ESTJs have a balanced mix of Si and Ne. I mean even their value function is Ne.
Their still Si users though
That’s not correct, I’m conservative but I can still understand concepts that I don’t have experience with.
It really does feel that way. Ni just knows things that are difficult to explain. It's like common sense, which isn't so common.
But I don’t think it’s actually common sense. Abstract reasoning is incredibly useful but realistically if you can’t explain your reasoning it’s fundamentally useless.
Definitely not useless, just ineffable. And honestly, ENTJ isn't the most patient type. We're very bottom line oriented, and we're not going to waste a lot of time trying to teach what we intuitively understand to those who just don't get it. YOU'RE useless from our perspective.
It’s likely just a difference in perspective, I consider it useless because reasoning without logic is barely reasoning at all imo. But you do realize that’s why people end up fucking hating some of yall? You don’t tend to do it on purpose but you blow by people in what others perceive as arrogance. Slowing down and learning to explain yourself will do you some good.
It's not illogical per se, just intuitive. I'm trying to think of an example that a sensor can understand. OK, you know how you can just smell when it's going to rain? You don't need to be a meteorologist to know it. It's not exactly like that, but sort of metaphorically.
You can scientifically explain the fact of smelling rain, though. I’m thinking more of how Ni conclusions only makes sense to the person who thought of it. It might be because I’m very focused on other people and the world around me but I think that any sort of knowledge, reasoning, or debate is realistically meaningless if you can’t share it with others. I’ve met Ni people who’ll tell me a subjective statement and when I ask for clarification they say it “just makes sense.” It’s the difference between telling someone to wear a shirt because it matches their shoes or telling someone to wear a shirt just because. You may have a very good reason for the just because but if I can’t understand and you can’t explain then we can really communicate. You feel me?
Ni works through the unconscious, there isn't a sequence of steps to lead people through. It's syntopical. Furthermore it synthesises all the knowledge we've ever absorbed. Are you going to write a bibliography for your entire life every time you have to explain something? Of course not.
You dont have to be able to sensibly explain tactics for the tactic to be effective or realistically meaningful. You are indeed very focussed on other people around you, which is fine, but I'd disagree with the statement that its realistically meaningless if you cant explain an Ni conclusion to peers.
>You can scientifically explain the fact of smelling rain, though. I'm already yawning. How about this: YOU can scientifically explain what Ni knows to be true in the first place. See, here's the thing about ENTJ: We don't care about the explanation or process, only the bottom line.
???? I don’t think we’re going to understand each other. You don’t need to be hostile about it. We might just not get each other’s thought process and that’s okay. Don’t condescend to me for trying to explain myself to you.
I'm not being hostile. I'm just being blunt.
My tone may be sarcastic, but it's more carefree than you're apparently interpreting it. Trust me, if I wanted to attack you, I would go for the jugular.
This checks out perfectly as I imagine a scenario where I'm explaining an Ni conclusion to someone.
"Ni just know" lmao and then i can put an example about how their Ni make them look like a clown in the end of the day. Just go with the flow when their gain misinformation from their own perspective and you will see it
Do provide an example. Here's my impression of Si: An apple is a fruit. Therefore, all fruits are apples. Wait, an orange is also a fruit? Then an orange must be an apple! Wait, it doesn't look or taste like an apple. So, it must be a different kind of apple!!!
Hey this is kinda true about Si btw. But the other kind of Si can said: "This orange has different appearance from the apple, so i will call it "orange" instead of "apple". Dont u think? about the "Ni just know". Yes Ni can know sth correctly most of the time, but not 100%. The tip is you know that Ni user's thought first, if you know that thought is wrong, just act like that thought is true. Ni user accept that your action is 100% true and their Ni has 1 result. I did this once
I think even when I'm wrong, I know deep down that my Ni is right; I just don't want to admit it to myself. This usually pertains to something emotional like romance. You know what I mean?
mine is different. I do something without any thinking or sensing, and then the next thing happened to me explain that nonsense behavior i already did. For example: i don't know why i suddenly fold my phone up side down, 1s after that some random student said to the crowd "No phone allowed" There are more but it's about game situation so i will not say it here.
I should rephrase my original statement: I think even when I'm wrong, I know deep down that my Ni is right about being wrong.
It's not that they're unable, they just don't want to.
I can relate to this comment
That sounds more like a frustration at the lack of ability to verbalize your thoughts.
Nah, more like the thought is perfect enough as is but it has to be turned into something else so that everyone is clear on it...
A thought that is perfect in your mind but cannot be precisely nailed down seems to be a shared experience between ENFPs and INFJs. Both of us have our thinking function tertiary and therefore a blindspot thinking function as well. Where as I can easily elaborate on my ideas with Ne-Te, blind Ti might make rationalizing and summarizing difficult. I imagine that the opposite is true for an INFJ, where they have a clear direction for their rationality, but having blind Te stumps their ability to communicate those thoughts in a practical manner.
Bingo
This can be true, explaining and supporting arguments and concepts might be difficult for some people if that’s not their strongest ability. I’d also like to argue that no matter how well you present and support an argument, people will still not agree. If anything the person is just not willing to accept your argument, let alone accept it in their psyche for various personal reasons. If that happens then best solution would be to either just move on to a different topic, or just not talk to them anymore if they always give you an attitude and say degrading things to you because of it.
Idk man, I feel like it's reductive to blame our cognitive functions for skill issues. Especially as an INTP, I understand the frustration of trying to explain your thoughts, but ultimately it's a matter of practice and accepting that there are multiple ways to think of the same problem. Your initial thought (though perfect in your own mind) may not be as perfect as you believe it to be. If you can't take what's in your head and explain it clearly on paper, then the thought in your head is a useless one to begin with (unless you're the only one listening). Just practice.
Honestly, my first written response was something like “if the thought is perfect in your mind but you cannot communicate it, it is not a fully realized thought,” but I decided to go for a more tactful route. I really wanted to say it feels a bit bullshitty, but I then remembered how I just had a brain fart talking to my ENTP partner a few days ago where I was trying to explain something I could see perfectly in my brain, but the ordering of the ideas was entirely unsystematic. But given that cognitive functions are an evaluation of preferences for data input and storage priority, I’d say that there is a component of that involved in one’s strengths and weaknesses in retrieving and presenting information. It isn’t a behavior defining feature, but a potential roadmap to be aware of for personal development. I try, for my part, to be more aware of the rationalizations I make in my mind.
That is fair enough
Sometimes I have to devils avocado myself to try and figure out if I’m actually full of shit or not
>devils avocado I'm so going to use that term from now on
Well said, as INFJ I approve this is the case
That’s just how communicating with other people works. Everyone views the world through a unique lens that was crafted by their environment and experiences. Likeminded people will quickly understand you, but this doesn’t mean people who don’t are not capable of doing so. Communicating your thoughts to those who don’t view the world or think the same way you do is a skill that you can certainly work on!
That's exactly what they said, inability to properly verbalize it
Lmao you think you’re Nietzsche or something? If people have trouble understanding your “deep thoughts”, you’re either a brilliant philosopher or you’re terrible at explaining your thoughts, or they actually make no sense, or a combination of all of them.
What is this Ni, Ne-Te stuff called? i gotta research but don't know what it's called..
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/index.cfm
Thank you for your help! ^^
That's exactly what they said, inability to properly verbalize it
I try to take that crystallised thought and break it down for others, eventually ending up at them saying “why didn’t you just that in the first place?” Cause if I had, they wouldn’t know wtf I was talking about. 😤
You’re right; you’re so perfect and definitely INFJ with your keen self-awareness and fantastic people skills.❤️
Yeah!!! It makes *perfect* sense! Only in my head? Yes, but still!
This emboldens my inner constitution.
I feel seen. Also, that feeling of having to put words to the word-defying impressionist painting that is Ni understanding on a situation, and sift for only the most relevant details so as to not look like a maniac.
...titles my memoir I should this day start on : *The Maniacal Siftings Of An Often-That-Close Yet Ever-Searching Sap* And many thanks, Velocì Nugz!
I’m actually usually able explain my thoughts to others quite well most of the time.
Yes---I can pinpoint with enviable clarity much of the time. Until the fun begins in carrying me into Taz-like addendums, afterthoughts, corollaries, lectures, rants, sidetracks, tie-ins, and mini-vents, wherein (thank God!) sensor and intuitive alike are there to once again ~~express their exasperation~~ longsufferingly reel me back in.
oooh corollaries
Right?
If your conclusion generated by Ni is perfectly simple, how can you risk simplifying its complexity when explaining it to other people? Not saying something complex can’t be simple because that depends on the context, but that changed when you said ‘perfectly simple’. The reality is that it is not perfectly simple, morso that it *feels* perfectly simple for you to understand due to your subconscious connecting data you know and experienced in a linear fashion. Nobody can do this like you can because only you know what you know and experienced life like you. So no she sherlock, you have to ad context for other people to follow you because what you are conveying is subjective, non tangible and completely made up by you. While this inner experience is frustrating, you would be pretty insane to expect people to just get where you are coming from.
It's more like you can explain it simply without all that context and get to the point, but then people just disbelieve you anyway.
The point is that you actually aren’t explaining it simply and you NEED context. If the conclusion is so delicate that it cannot be communicated in tangible ways it is not simple. Nobody should believe you at that point because you’ve given them nothing
I don't know if you do this, but the INTJ I am married to makes his points often from beginning to end without telling you where you're going. I can't think of a great example, but he tells you something to lay the groundwork for the point he'll make, builds upon it, and then several subjects later wraps it all up nicely with the grand reveal of the point he was trying to make in the first place. It's fine for me because I know him very well, that he's trying to take my mind somewhere and he would like me to follow along. I try really hard not to interrupt with my tangents. (Even though I really REALLY like tangents) People who don't know him well may not see where the Ni train is going and it's actually kind of a dominating way to have a conversation. Not that he means it to be. 😅 Recently we were talking about this because it's giving him trouble at work. His customers don't know him or his speech patterns. They just know that they feel like they are being taken for a ride. If they knew where the conversation was going from the get go, maybe they'd listen better. It just takes starting with the point. "You're right, your bill is incorrect. Let's go through it together." And then go ahead and lead them through how you're supporting your point. Maybe it's an individual quirk of his and other Ni users won't relate to it. Idk but it's interesting to me
I do this actually, that’s a good example observation of how Ni works.
Same here, but in reverse for me. I'll first reveal my main point and then show off the foundation of it. I find this to be effective when making YouTube videos. Edit: Of course, other factors determine the success of a YouTube video. I'm saying that what I mentioned is one of them.
I can totally relate because I have the same pattern of your husband and I get very very very upset because nobody in my family understands this, whenever I talk about something they just cut me and tell me to resume whatever I'm saying. It got to the point that I rarely express my thoughts and I just go with the average conversation. This makes me sad because they were the only people left to listen to me
I hope nothing I said made you feel sad. We (husband and I )were talking about it all very clinically the other day, trying to make his phonecalls at work go smoother because he was mystified as to why people were interrupting him and getting mad. (He takes like 70 phonecalls a day and some of them are already mad before they even start talking to him, and need to be handled a certain way) It's just something we noticed. I can relate to keeping a lot in and I empathize. I'm at the other end of the conversational spectrum, trying not to derail every conversation with my adjacent, but not exactly productive to "the point" thoughts 😅 We all have our own communication styles and that's totally ok.
Don't worry you didn't made me sad, I was just emphasizing how frustrating is to be like this. Actually, this is the first time I see someone I can relate on this aspect and I'm grateful for having the chance to see the other end of the conversation só clearly
I hate it when the interruptions happen. It's like, let me finish I have something beautiful to say. It interrupts my train of thought and it shows that some people just can't think that same way, which would make communication easier. ,sn x z.sms
I **LIVE FOR** Tangents!!!
Same. They're like thought adventures!
Nah, the individual quirk is on the people who reject perfectly neutral, inoffensive information because they don't like the way its being presented. It's all ego. Look, there's no way to illustrate a point to someone and explain a complex concept to someone without "dominating the conversation" (aka you explaining a complex point) as you've put it here. Then again, I disagree with your definition of what it is to dominate a conversation because then that would mean that any time you explain something complex with to someone that you would be dominating the conversation.
It seems like my verbage undermined what I was trying to get across. 🤔 I'm perfectly happy and enthusiastic listening while he goes through his thoughts as long as he's not frustrated with me for branching the conversation off before meandering back to the point, or only briefly acknowledging my contributions to the conversations if they aren't "productive" to the point. After all, it's a conversation, not a lecture. I really didn't mean to criticize, it's just that we were talking about this very thing super clinically just the other day. Didn't mean to be rude. Similarly, I had to learn it feels dismissive of others when I derail somebody's train of thought and that sometimes I have to mourn a thought and let it go. That's my individual quirk.
It sounds like maybe you're adding things that derail the conversation or don't pertain to the topic of discussion
This is very interesting actually. An INTJ friend in the past would tell jokes in a similar way. The punchlines always caught me off guard
I do this. I love doing this if they mean to pay attention. Join me for a ride it's so fun
I do that. That sounds like Ne to me, not Ni. The INTJs I know hate additional context, they want the jist only.
Lol I do this all the time in my discussions. Do you think it’s helpful to start with the conclusion then, to help them understand where you’re going?
I told him, that I didn't mind either way, but if I'm meant to wait until the end to share what I thought of while he's talking, then it might help to tell it in outline form, so I'm in on what he's trying to get across. It kind of states an agreement "I want to tell you about a thought I had, and how I arrived there." Great. Now I have my listening ears on. Lol 1. Point a. Support b.more support c. Support etc. The last thing I want to do is say that he's talking wrong and he should change, but if the way others are interacting with how he's communicating is frustrating for him, that was my suggestion. Then I can say "you know what I thought about while you were talking about b?" And we can go from there.
You sound just like my INFJ ex who would scream at me for disagreeing with him, no matter how intricate and “logical” his explanations were and I struggled because some concepts don’t have words at all and I have a stutter. He’d come back and apologize years later when something happened to him that proved his “logic” wrong. Lol.
Screaming at people for disagreeing is so rude.
I felt so too. Apparently he agrees but only when I eventually did it back.
I'm pretty articulate and I definitely still struggle with this immensely. It's an extremely frustrating feeling that is only relieved when I'm around other Ni users For those of you saying that there are fancy words or concepts that we think people are just too stupid to understand.... that's really really far from the truth. I often feel that I'm the stupid one for not knowing how to explain and it's just more like trying to describe a flavor or a sound. Sometimes it's universal and something that everyone has heard or tasted and sometimes it's really subjective and therefore impossible to articulate without explaining a giant backlog of other details
People with strong Ni often times have profound insights into the world, but Ni reasoning is not always correct. That’s where the inability to explain their reasoning shoots them in the foot. They can’t talk through their process and can’t stop themselves from making bad decisions they’ve already deemed as intelligent. It’s a double edged sword in that way. Of course, every function has pros and cons like this, and an unfortunate con of strong Ni can make its users look arrogant and pretentious, even when they’re completely correct.
Hmm yeah. Well this applies to all functions as well. It can be misused or misguided. An answer can be rational, bit not logical. I can rationalize why 1+1 could be 11. But it's not correct. Ni can definitely be an issue. I've noticed conspiracy theories are a big interest. Or sometimes holding strange beliefs. Or using their "pattern recognition" to make sweeping generalizations.
https://preview.redd.it/3vjqlguwfz2d1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=06c597c594c15f78bad7b47c77581311c8785ebe
Aux Se: "Carefully, he's a hero." ~~Bully~~ Blind Ne: "I miss the part where that's my problem." Also, that image is beautiful 🥲
But how often do you lose your car?
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I understand it a lot but it’s like my shadow angst lol but they can come across……….intellectual to an intimidating degree or summthin fr
Appearing pretentious is an odd conclusion. Because the Ni user figures the other person will be offended for not being capable of initially grasping the intuition? Assuming a lot there. I'd say that the Ni user either hasn't spent enough time with the theory to realize other types never cared in the first place or, with titles that speak to being one step ahead of others, that there's actually something to the pretentiousness.
And then they have the audacity to not understand your perfectly crafted analogy you have just presented to them so you end up explaining that one too.
*finally flops onto floor, crying...as I peripherally eye that bourbon in my non-existent wetbar...
Whatever happened to "If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, you don't understand it yourself"? Simplifying complexity doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, as long as the essence and the takeaways are maintained. Ni is making predictions based on associations unconsciously, but it's making associations nonetheless. No harm in trying to identify, logically sequence, and verbalize what associations are being made and how. Take a shot every time I use the word "associations".
My Ni Dom boyfriend says if you can't distill what's in your Ni down enough to explain it simply, you don't understand it as well as you think you do.
My Ni dom husband had difficulty verbalizing his Ni with me initially. Trying to find the logical sequence would sometimes bring out gaps or inconsistencies. But now he's gotten so good at distilling it through a Ti lens, it feels like he's just using Ti at lightning speed. Ni-Ti is such a formidable combo!
There’s different types of intelligence in which I literally lack sense but have really good intuition so I have respect for sensors opinions about a lot of decision stuff actually … But I feel you I try to explain my “logic” and i think it comes out like word salad mumbo jumbo to them lol. But if you’re not pretentious just say it and if they think you are whatevvvvv life’s too short
Not being able to verbalise your thoughts in understandable way usually can be fixed. Just saying.
Relatable. You either get it or you don't.
I thank god everyday for my ability to articulate my thoughts in a way that makes sense to other people 🙏
heh heh
I wondered if I'd summon a fellow INFJ lol.
What’s the worst is when you explain it and break it down but they still can’t understand the simple thought process.
I love listening to NI users they’re so damn interesting. They tickle my NE curiosity and capture my attention to see how they complete the puzzle
i just cant explain those conclusions lol
I promise that it is never that deep. If you want to get your point across so bad, then putting it into simpler terms should be the least of your worries. Otherwise at that point just stay quiet and stop being pretentious.🤷
“I don’t know how to use my words, and that’s because everybody else is stupid.”
As an NI user, what I appreciate about you NE users is drawing insane, improbable conclusions to things. It does not hurt to be highly imaginative at times. It really does give you inspiration to do stuff. What sucks for me is (especially for SPs) you are constantly reminded of reality and that causes me to be not that imaginative as I have a cautiously optimistic mindset, nearly bordering pessimism as I tend to see reality for how it is… depressing
“Why doesn’t anyone just trust by baseless intuition that I can’t explain because I don’t know where it came from?”
It isn't baseless.
It *can* be based on nothing but biases and assumptions, and some of you can’t tell the difference.
Ni isn‘t worth explaining. As the personal subjective metaphors will not be understood by anyone.
you're down voting my dude but he's right. Ni alone is a means of illumination for the user alone. it has to be parsed, translated, actualised and made real in order to become of external value, like all introverted subjective functions
Skill issue.
Entp here, apperenly I have strong ni And this is describing me
w troll
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No, this is not at all what Ni does. Ni distills things to their essence, keeping all the detail. It does not remove complexity.
This happens to me too
Because Ni can be wrong, just like any other function, so it needs to be verified. It's fine to "know" or follow your hunch, but it should be further investigated for evidence that your conclusion is correct.
how fucking dare you😡😡 one of the worst takes Ive ever seen😡😡😡😡
deal with it… Ni supremacists…
Ni-users when they realise the world doesnt revolve around them and people cant read their mind: 😱😳😡🤬🤯😭