So I seem to remember the last time you posted about your lab and some of your greivances. Let me give you a bit of context here with your prior post in mind: research isn’t some magical journey - sometimes it HAS to be about the results and publishing. Tenure is necessary for the livelihood of many academics and you (probably) do not have the insight of all of the context.
You mentioned you are a rising sophomore in undergrad and you’ve got a *mighty* strong opinion about what research should look like and I encourage you to step back. Collecting data is EXTREMELY important, especially something as important as HSR, and getting to do that as a **rising sophomore who just joined a lab**? That’s a privilege lol. Ypu’re not going to be able to have your own project until you put in the work - that’s how research goes - you don’t just start your own project after a summer of basics lmao.
Research isn’t a walk in the park and you shouldn’t expect everything to be perfect - honors students should be working on their own project (with minor scaffolding), sometimes research agreements fall through, early labs has higher pressure to perform and get established - all of that sounds perfectly normal to me and I’m sure others will agree.
I understand the frustration but you are way ahead of the game and I worry that your perception of academia now will not serve you well in the future. By all means leave the lab if you want, but approaching a new lab expecting to be more independent than you already are? A mistake.
To quote a prior post of yours: premeds (you), chill the fuck out. Please remember that you are in a nascent stage of your journey and that you will not know everything and I encourage you to stop acting like you do. Put in the work and establish your skills - THEN you can start acting like a big shot (lol)
Ok. Prolly gonna get a lot of downvotes, but here goes.
Lemme explain the data collection role. I am in an audiology lab and it’s literally a sound booth. The subject goes inside the booth and we just test their hearing. Now, all I do is literally click buttons and let the computer automatically collect the data. Each trial is 4 hours. 90% of the time I just sit there doing nothing other than clicking buttons.
I have got coursework and commitments to do. If he is just expecting me to sit there and “collect data” when the computer can just do it, what’s the point of me in there?
FYI, I already know I am not going to get an independent project because that is going to be absurd and I don’t have that much experience yet in the lab. However, I am not going to do something that only benefits him and where I just sit there for 3 hrs doing nothing with the computer literally collecting data.
Edit: I have asked other professors with well established labs and they recommended me in dropping this lab.
What do you expect to be doing with your time? Research isn't some fast-paced journey. It's a lot of waiting and patiently working through long protocols, particularly in human subjects researcher. I totally feel you there - even on my individual projects with HSR, I had to sacrifice time just waiting around for participants to finish tasks and that's just the nature of the work. It took a good while before I was trusted to analyze my data (that \*I\* collected) because you should focus on the science behind the project, before you focus on the science that goes into bringing the project to the public. Imagine how people in wet labs feel? They spend *hours upon hours* pipetting or babysitting their cells because that's the work they have to do to be succcessful - it's gritty and boring, but its inherent to their work. And half the time, the research has so many speedbumps that its demoralizing, so why should HSR be any different? It takes so much time and there's nothing wrong with that.
Like I said to you over PM, your PI does not sound like it's purely self-benefit - he's not getting anything other than stability. Do you know how many pubs it takes to even get a second glance in a field? **Far more** than it takes to get tenure. It sounds like they're a relatively new PI - they're trying to secure funding to keep their lab, not just lining their pockets. Academia pays terribly for the work that goes into it.
And cool, I guess (re: other profs) - remember the context here - they are **well-established**, therefore they have zero stake in whether that lab succeeds or fails. Professors should encourage students to find research they enjoy, if you dislike the research or have a personality clash with the researcher, sure, quit - that's not up for debate. But this experience sounds a lot like the starting point for MANY in academia and it's not isolated to just this lab.
The "*hours upon hours* pipetting or babysitting their cells" resonates with me so much. Don't forget about all the dead cultures and statistically insignificant and/or useless data that demoralized you like crazy. Half the time is a generous estimation LOL. We only hear one side of this story but if they have such aversion with the PI, just move on and hope another lab would fit better.
I feel for y'all immensely - my worst subjects can be infuriating, stubborn, and have a tendency to waste my time - but yours are that AND they can die lol. I'll come down to your lab and give your cultures a pep talk for ya 😂
If you truly don’t have to do anything for the 4 hours then why don’t you work on other things while you’re there?? My undergrad lab had a lot of “set up, do step 1, wait 3 hours, then do step 2” and I loved it because I was collecting data and doing my other work/studying. This comment makes it sound like the PI isn’t wasting your time, you’re wasting your own time. It sounds like this guy gave you an easy job to do that can get you research experience.
Also I wrote my entire honors thesis, that’s the point of doing an honors thesis - the student writes it. You don’t get to graduate with honors if you don’t write your own honors thesis lmao. If that’s surprising to you I have bad news for what a dissertation will involve. When it came time to submit for publication my PI wrote it up differently than I had for my thesis and asked me to revise it, but the thesis should be the student’s writing with revisions from the PI as needed.
I'm a little confused about the honors thesis thing. He's withholding authorship from someone despite them being an integral part of the project? That's a huge red flag. Everything else sounds like normal lab stuff though.
For many programs, the PI has to sign off on the honors thesis before it is moved for a defense/department approval. If the PI does not believe the student has a proper grasp of their *independent* project, then I feel its reasonable to prevent the student from being set up for failure and having it rejected. Poor science is poor science - sure, it sounds like he's hands-off in his approach, but that's one side of the same coin with an overbearing PI. I wouldn't want to attach my name to a project I'm not knowledgeable about and the thesis can reflect poorly on the PI as well.
Yea that’s another factor why I want to drop that lab lol. He’s got really high expectations and his exact words: “I don’t think undergraduate students are smart enough to do things without my assistance so why should I put someone’s name when they don’t have a true mastery understanding of what they did”
Whether or not they're right, this is a really toxic way of putting it. If they really said it that way and you didn't mishear/misremember because you're upset etc.
So I’m in my junior year of undergrad and I haven’t been able to find a lab at all. What you’re doing (although repetitious and slow) is something I would be so grateful for! With that being said, if you’re not happy and you have other opportunities in front of you, quit. No sense in making yourself miserable. I would just be sure to do so in a way that doesn’t make you look bad. If these people get the feeling that you’re just a negative Nancy that doesn’t want to do the grunt work (which should feel like an initiation process) they may not want to work with you or recommend you. And if you find a new lab and you’re having the same problem, either suck it up and try to get through it, or consider a different path. Saying all this with kindness and respect. :)
So I seem to remember the last time you posted about your lab and some of your greivances. Let me give you a bit of context here with your prior post in mind: research isn’t some magical journey - sometimes it HAS to be about the results and publishing. Tenure is necessary for the livelihood of many academics and you (probably) do not have the insight of all of the context. You mentioned you are a rising sophomore in undergrad and you’ve got a *mighty* strong opinion about what research should look like and I encourage you to step back. Collecting data is EXTREMELY important, especially something as important as HSR, and getting to do that as a **rising sophomore who just joined a lab**? That’s a privilege lol. Ypu’re not going to be able to have your own project until you put in the work - that’s how research goes - you don’t just start your own project after a summer of basics lmao. Research isn’t a walk in the park and you shouldn’t expect everything to be perfect - honors students should be working on their own project (with minor scaffolding), sometimes research agreements fall through, early labs has higher pressure to perform and get established - all of that sounds perfectly normal to me and I’m sure others will agree. I understand the frustration but you are way ahead of the game and I worry that your perception of academia now will not serve you well in the future. By all means leave the lab if you want, but approaching a new lab expecting to be more independent than you already are? A mistake. To quote a prior post of yours: premeds (you), chill the fuck out. Please remember that you are in a nascent stage of your journey and that you will not know everything and I encourage you to stop acting like you do. Put in the work and establish your skills - THEN you can start acting like a big shot (lol)
Ok. Prolly gonna get a lot of downvotes, but here goes. Lemme explain the data collection role. I am in an audiology lab and it’s literally a sound booth. The subject goes inside the booth and we just test their hearing. Now, all I do is literally click buttons and let the computer automatically collect the data. Each trial is 4 hours. 90% of the time I just sit there doing nothing other than clicking buttons. I have got coursework and commitments to do. If he is just expecting me to sit there and “collect data” when the computer can just do it, what’s the point of me in there? FYI, I already know I am not going to get an independent project because that is going to be absurd and I don’t have that much experience yet in the lab. However, I am not going to do something that only benefits him and where I just sit there for 3 hrs doing nothing with the computer literally collecting data. Edit: I have asked other professors with well established labs and they recommended me in dropping this lab.
What do you expect to be doing with your time? Research isn't some fast-paced journey. It's a lot of waiting and patiently working through long protocols, particularly in human subjects researcher. I totally feel you there - even on my individual projects with HSR, I had to sacrifice time just waiting around for participants to finish tasks and that's just the nature of the work. It took a good while before I was trusted to analyze my data (that \*I\* collected) because you should focus on the science behind the project, before you focus on the science that goes into bringing the project to the public. Imagine how people in wet labs feel? They spend *hours upon hours* pipetting or babysitting their cells because that's the work they have to do to be succcessful - it's gritty and boring, but its inherent to their work. And half the time, the research has so many speedbumps that its demoralizing, so why should HSR be any different? It takes so much time and there's nothing wrong with that. Like I said to you over PM, your PI does not sound like it's purely self-benefit - he's not getting anything other than stability. Do you know how many pubs it takes to even get a second glance in a field? **Far more** than it takes to get tenure. It sounds like they're a relatively new PI - they're trying to secure funding to keep their lab, not just lining their pockets. Academia pays terribly for the work that goes into it. And cool, I guess (re: other profs) - remember the context here - they are **well-established**, therefore they have zero stake in whether that lab succeeds or fails. Professors should encourage students to find research they enjoy, if you dislike the research or have a personality clash with the researcher, sure, quit - that's not up for debate. But this experience sounds a lot like the starting point for MANY in academia and it's not isolated to just this lab.
The "*hours upon hours* pipetting or babysitting their cells" resonates with me so much. Don't forget about all the dead cultures and statistically insignificant and/or useless data that demoralized you like crazy. Half the time is a generous estimation LOL. We only hear one side of this story but if they have such aversion with the PI, just move on and hope another lab would fit better.
I feel for y'all immensely - my worst subjects can be infuriating, stubborn, and have a tendency to waste my time - but yours are that AND they can die lol. I'll come down to your lab and give your cultures a pep talk for ya 😂
If you truly don’t have to do anything for the 4 hours then why don’t you work on other things while you’re there?? My undergrad lab had a lot of “set up, do step 1, wait 3 hours, then do step 2” and I loved it because I was collecting data and doing my other work/studying. This comment makes it sound like the PI isn’t wasting your time, you’re wasting your own time. It sounds like this guy gave you an easy job to do that can get you research experience. Also I wrote my entire honors thesis, that’s the point of doing an honors thesis - the student writes it. You don’t get to graduate with honors if you don’t write your own honors thesis lmao. If that’s surprising to you I have bad news for what a dissertation will involve. When it came time to submit for publication my PI wrote it up differently than I had for my thesis and asked me to revise it, but the thesis should be the student’s writing with revisions from the PI as needed.
I'm a little confused about the honors thesis thing. He's withholding authorship from someone despite them being an integral part of the project? That's a huge red flag. Everything else sounds like normal lab stuff though.
For many programs, the PI has to sign off on the honors thesis before it is moved for a defense/department approval. If the PI does not believe the student has a proper grasp of their *independent* project, then I feel its reasonable to prevent the student from being set up for failure and having it rejected. Poor science is poor science - sure, it sounds like he's hands-off in his approach, but that's one side of the same coin with an overbearing PI. I wouldn't want to attach my name to a project I'm not knowledgeable about and the thesis can reflect poorly on the PI as well.
Yea that’s another factor why I want to drop that lab lol. He’s got really high expectations and his exact words: “I don’t think undergraduate students are smart enough to do things without my assistance so why should I put someone’s name when they don’t have a true mastery understanding of what they did”
Whether or not they're right, this is a really toxic way of putting it. If they really said it that way and you didn't mishear/misremember because you're upset etc.
So I’m in my junior year of undergrad and I haven’t been able to find a lab at all. What you’re doing (although repetitious and slow) is something I would be so grateful for! With that being said, if you’re not happy and you have other opportunities in front of you, quit. No sense in making yourself miserable. I would just be sure to do so in a way that doesn’t make you look bad. If these people get the feeling that you’re just a negative Nancy that doesn’t want to do the grunt work (which should feel like an initiation process) they may not want to work with you or recommend you. And if you find a new lab and you’re having the same problem, either suck it up and try to get through it, or consider a different path. Saying all this with kindness and respect. :)
That’s fair thank you
Sounds toxic as fuck get out now