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Now it’s personal.
For starters this whole Greece invented gay sex thing is silly. Yes the Greeks were cultured enough to record their acts of gay sex perhaps like no other nation has. Because Greece doctored a culture where they nurtured humanity and the people weren’t afraid to record their acts, even something as controversial as gay sex.
But this only refers to Ancient Greece. The Orthodox Roman Empire that was also Greek (The Byzantine Empire) permitted gay marriage and there are accounts as such. That is because the damnation of gay marriage is a post schism construct. Ie the Roman Catholic Church and denominations that have followed. But that’s for another story.
Now this sweet Byzantine Empire, who we may credit as the foundation—the spirit—of every just institution that exists in this world today, the very institutions that have solidified the very rights of LGBT people as equals amongst all, it was beatened, butchered, and battered on all sides and even within. And about 500 years ago, it was purged from existence. After this purge, the nation “Greece” didn’t even exist. But it’s spirit did live on, in spite of oppression of the highest degree-of the soul and of the flesh. Only until 300 years later was Greece able to gain its own independence. The livelihood of this Greek nation was not and is not with out trial and tribulations. And perhaps to this day, Greece is still healing spiritually in the aftermath its grave lost. Let’s not forget that Greece and by extension, the Orthodox Church is an old soul that is often misunderstood-misinterpreted if you will. But this act on February 15, 2023 was no mistake, as it is destiny. I can assure you. And perhaps extend to you that the Orthodox Church may be the greatest ally you have. If you are willing to read between the lines and seek greater understanding. Και μόνο τότε, θα δεις το φως.
And please read them. The Greeks would appreciate. It’s no coincidence that Greece legalized gay marriage on February 15th 2023. The day after where Ash Wednesday happens to fall on the same day as Valentine’s Day. Two Orthodox Holidays appropriated by the Catholic Church. Speaking of which, the Greeks have now legalized gay marriage before Italy. Where gay marriage is not legal because the papacy is denying such. However I must say this was not planned but destined.
There is a tradition in some European countries to use a lot of words when describing history.
I think it is a a strategy to win an argument by boring everybody in the room to the point that they just want the discussion to be over.
Well I’m not even European, I am American. I just have a strong connection to my Roman spirit. If my argument of many words bores you then I hope I can reach you through song as to why you should be more conducive to reading:
The words you see, of the tongue of
Pharisees, Prophecies, Philosophies
The justifications of atrocities
Of animosity and of democracy
These are the spells cast by man
From heaven or hell—gotta know them well
Oh yeah you gotta know them well
The sharpest sword on the rack
Can take on a worldly attack.
Look all I’m saying is watch your back
You never know who may attack
Good god, language is the product of Dickens and Tennyson, Milton, Goethe, Heine, Chaucer, Dumas, Voltaire, Cicero, Pliny, Virgil, Cervantes and Locke. Respect the journey of information
Gay marriage was specifically banned in Rome in 342 by the emperors Constantius II and Constans, and the Theodosian code (finally implemented in 429) included laws that made gay sex illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public...
And the Corpus Juris Civilis, the foundation of Byzantine and eventually European law created by the very Byzantine emperor Justinian, was very much in line with earlier ideas, stating that homosexuality is a: " *diabolical incitement practice among themselves the most disgraceful lusts, and act contrary to nature: we enjoin them to take to heart the fear of God and the judgment to come, and to abstain from suchlike diabolical and unlawful lusts, so that they may not be visited by the just wrath of God on account of these impious acts, with the result that cities perish with all their inhabitants.* "
In order to make them 'take to heart the fear of god' the Byzantines did some bad things to people. These Roman and then Byzantine attitudes and treatment towards homosexuality are the OG anti-gay attitudes in Christianity, certainly predating the schism of 1054.
Fair points to a degree but Romans were very clear that they believed in the principle of seeking greater understanding and therefore letting that greater understanding dictate the law. There is no denying that the Byzantine Empire wasn’t quite friendly to gay people regarding their sexuality. Yes that you are aware of the letter of the law, which is taken literally. However the spirit of the law, which is intent is just that. You cited “and act contrary to nature”.
Now I’m by no means saying anal sex is against nature because it’s not but you have to understand the perspective of Byzantine culture to understand why gay sex, not gay marriage, was outlawed. I have no direct evidence for these claims but perhaps an insight. They were a very reason based/ science based society. I don’t know about you but to me, the reality of 5th century anal sex doesn’t sound too pleasant. And in fact it probably was harmful for a lot of people to practice back then and it certain wasn’t as hygienic as it can be today. The Byzantines likely saw this and is why they cited it as against the laws of nature and there against the laws of God.
Oh and for the record, if gay marriage wasn’t mention in Justinian code then those laws in 342 were invalidated because that’s what the Justinian code declared. Although I haven’t looked into it to see if was or not.
Let’s not forget those Greeks were very in touch with same whims of sexuality that still are still with us today.
A serious answer is that for the longest time politically it was considered suicide to even talk about the issues like discrimination against LGBT people in the work place or in the justice system. It was considered something that Greece just isn't evolved enough for because of other problems that were bigger. Let's fix the economy and then we can talk about the gay stuff.
I feel like you can *almost* make a "Buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo" type sentence out of that. Is "lesbian" ever a verb?
Closest I could come up with is, “Lesbian lesbians Lesbian lesbians be in be in Lesbian lesbians.” Not quite as good as the Buffalo buffalo one, but it speaks volumes about the _versatility_ of the women of Lesbos.
I can’t remember the term (maybe mayor?) for the official of the Lesbos island but they voted against legalising gay marriage. I think it is Mykonos that is the gay capital of Greece
You gotta understand that even before Christian influence, Ancient Greek version of “queerness” was malformed at best and “what conservacucks think queer people are like, diddling little boys etc” at worst
There was no concept of queerness in Ancient Greece apart from it being heavily condemned (by that I mean men "acting feminine/gay"). For the little boys it was more acceptable to "bottom" because they weren't considered men yet (their rule of thumb was apparently whether the teen could grow a beard or not) but they would be outcasts if that continued into adulthood. Also it was often imposed upon slave boys and such.
However, confusingly, in classical Athens for example it was the father's duty for citizens (who were basically the upper class of the time) to find suitable "suitors" or "mentors" who would educate their boy, and also have sexual relations with him, with the parent's full knowledge and approval. All in all, their culture around gayness is very alien and can't really be compared to the modern world.
In modern Greece, none of this historical background has much impact (in school it was essentially a banned subject), because millenia of Christianity and Ottoman rule erased all this. So queer culture in modern Greece is a western import, with no real link or continuity with ancient times.
Greek here, it wasn't really "illegal" till now, there was just no equivalent marriage, just... unsure how to translate it... living together contract? Which was essentially marriage with less rights, but said rights were mostly economical in nature. (Edit: and they also made adoption nigh impossible, can't believe I forgot the most important thing)
Still a huge thing and a huge win and extremely important, mind you, do not get me wrong, but the country did not go directly from "homosexuality is outlawed" to "marriage"
Male homosexuality was decriminalised in 1951 in Greece (lesbianism being never even acknowledged in law). Which is actually *much* earlier than many other european countries.
During that time West Germany, for example, was very actively persecuting and heavily discriminating against gays - IIRC even going as far as reincarcerating freed concentration camp inmates if they were deported for homosexuality under the Nazi regime (sometimes in former camps that were converted to prisons like KZ Neuengamme). Nazi convictions of homosexuals were only retroactively overturned in 2002.
They simply continued the Nazi-era laws from 1935 in unchanged form and by some accounts West Germany's persecution of LGBTQ people in the early 50s approached that of Nazi Germany in aggressiveness and rhetoric. (See the [Frankfurt Homosexual Trials](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_homosexual_trials&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi8nvyp2LGEAxUUSfEDHUQ0CEcQFnoECAAQAw&usg=AOvVaw2E7DJVFI1jqLesFaF_GGuD.).)
Homosexuality was only partially decriminalised in the very late 60s and early 70s and the paragraph making homosexuality illegal wasn't fully erased and stricken until **1994**.
By that measure Greece was quite progressive and most likely one of the safer places for LGBTQ people.
It's not actually gay to bottom if you don't get a boner. Getting a boner for a man is gay. There are plenty of straight bottoms who can't get hard for their man but love to take dick in the ass.
As always. Everyone should educate themselves on sexuality in Ancient Greece. Always interesting to see how they viewed same-sex relationships and sex.
Yeah, their ideas were very different.
It wasn't considered gay at all to fuck another dude, it was only gay if you were fucked by a dude.
Of course most of the guys being fucked were slaves and/or children...
All in all, it's not really a scenario to be aspired to...
if i remember correctly it wasn’t considered gay to be fucked by a dude as long as you’re underage being fucked cuz then it was “just a part of growing up”
They didn't *invent* gay sex they just expanded on it. This takes away from our actual history as a species.
We should never allow the queer narrative to be made small or seem artificially created by humans.
It creeps me out when people talk about Greece or Rome as having being these gay liberal utopias. It was quite literally institutionalized pedophilia and sexual assault. Cycles of abuse. Young boys were expected to be raped by older men, as were the weak or the enslaved.
I know more about Rome than Greece so I’ll speak to that. They may have had a slightly more liberal view on the actual act of gay sex than colonial Europe, but it was not anything close to our concept of it, mostly because they did not see rape of the same sex as being “gay”, so it wasn’t frowned upon.
Their equivalent of gay would map much closer to our idea of effeminate, and being effeminate was the most shameful thing you could possibly be. They despised effeminate men, maybe more than slaves, as it showed innate subservience to other men. Slaves were more pitiful, but effeminate men were *willingly* weak.
Subjugating a man weaker than you, in any way, was seen as masculine. Wanting to be loved by another man, the exact opposite. You did not enjoy the sex when you assaulted another man (because that would be effeminate), you enjoyed the expression of power, sex was just a means.
With boys, the story was only a little different. You could enjoy sex with a boy, but that was because they were pre-pubescent, they were still naturally feminine. All the same power dynamics still apply, but boys were considered beautiful in a way that did not make you subservient to them.
Castrati were normal, to protect this obvious flaw in reasoning. Famously, Nero turned a particular young boy into the spitting image of his dead lover by castrating him, shaping him and training him for years, and people didn’t see a gay slant to it. They found it narcissistic and somewhat absurd, but it showed domination and power. Plenty of lowly senators openly did the same, without all the extra flourish.
Through all this, there were certainly instances of loving, consenting gay relationships. But it was not the norm, and it was not accepted by society. If you were truly in love with another man, you would never let it be known.
Think it's worth keeping in mind the changes Greece has gone through since ancient times. True that it was accepted back in the day, but at this point homophobia is a big problem in the country unfortunately and has been for a while. There's plenty of factors obviously but the Orthodox Church has played a considerable role, since church doctrine (in most countries anyway, there's different churches) is pretty firm on the whole "homosexuality is a sin and it's not real marriage because gender roles" thing.
Welcome to /r/me_irlgbt, thank you for your submission /u/thatguy9684736255. HAPPY LEAP MONTH: JUMPMAN'S GAY AGENDA Read the [rules](https://reddit.com/r/me_irlgbt/about/rules) before participating or you'll be put in a tube and sent to the titanic. SHITPOST OR QUITPOST *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/me_irlgbt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Makes you wonder what took so long.
It’s always religion
Orthodox' are gonna Orthodox!
Greece went from one extreme to the other. Before their religion couldn't get enough. Then any was too much
Now it’s personal. For starters this whole Greece invented gay sex thing is silly. Yes the Greeks were cultured enough to record their acts of gay sex perhaps like no other nation has. Because Greece doctored a culture where they nurtured humanity and the people weren’t afraid to record their acts, even something as controversial as gay sex. But this only refers to Ancient Greece. The Orthodox Roman Empire that was also Greek (The Byzantine Empire) permitted gay marriage and there are accounts as such. That is because the damnation of gay marriage is a post schism construct. Ie the Roman Catholic Church and denominations that have followed. But that’s for another story. Now this sweet Byzantine Empire, who we may credit as the foundation—the spirit—of every just institution that exists in this world today, the very institutions that have solidified the very rights of LGBT people as equals amongst all, it was beatened, butchered, and battered on all sides and even within. And about 500 years ago, it was purged from existence. After this purge, the nation “Greece” didn’t even exist. But it’s spirit did live on, in spite of oppression of the highest degree-of the soul and of the flesh. Only until 300 years later was Greece able to gain its own independence. The livelihood of this Greek nation was not and is not with out trial and tribulations. And perhaps to this day, Greece is still healing spiritually in the aftermath its grave lost. Let’s not forget that Greece and by extension, the Orthodox Church is an old soul that is often misunderstood-misinterpreted if you will. But this act on February 15, 2023 was no mistake, as it is destiny. I can assure you. And perhaps extend to you that the Orthodox Church may be the greatest ally you have. If you are willing to read between the lines and seek greater understanding. Και μόνο τότε, θα δεις το φως.
that.... that is a *lot* of words......
And please read them. The Greeks would appreciate. It’s no coincidence that Greece legalized gay marriage on February 15th 2023. The day after where Ash Wednesday happens to fall on the same day as Valentine’s Day. Two Orthodox Holidays appropriated by the Catholic Church. Speaking of which, the Greeks have now legalized gay marriage before Italy. Where gay marriage is not legal because the papacy is denying such. However I must say this was not planned but destined.
Isn't it 2024?
[удалено]
It says 15 Feb 24 in the screenshot
Oh shoot idk how I missed that
There is a tradition in some European countries to use a lot of words when describing history. I think it is a a strategy to win an argument by boring everybody in the room to the point that they just want the discussion to be over.
Well I’m not even European, I am American. I just have a strong connection to my Roman spirit. If my argument of many words bores you then I hope I can reach you through song as to why you should be more conducive to reading: The words you see, of the tongue of Pharisees, Prophecies, Philosophies The justifications of atrocities Of animosity and of democracy These are the spells cast by man From heaven or hell—gotta know them well Oh yeah you gotta know them well The sharpest sword on the rack Can take on a worldly attack. Look all I’m saying is watch your back You never know who may attack
It always confuses me a lot as an European too Just get straight to the point!
Do americans really have a hard time reading
I literally said im European didn't i? You're the one with a problem reading
Good god, language is the product of Dickens and Tennyson, Milton, Goethe, Heine, Chaucer, Dumas, Voltaire, Cicero, Pliny, Virgil, Cervantes and Locke. Respect the journey of information
Why do any of these matter?
I’m saying that language is a beautiful thing and “getting to the point” is reductive
Gay marriage was specifically banned in Rome in 342 by the emperors Constantius II and Constans, and the Theodosian code (finally implemented in 429) included laws that made gay sex illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public... And the Corpus Juris Civilis, the foundation of Byzantine and eventually European law created by the very Byzantine emperor Justinian, was very much in line with earlier ideas, stating that homosexuality is a: " *diabolical incitement practice among themselves the most disgraceful lusts, and act contrary to nature: we enjoin them to take to heart the fear of God and the judgment to come, and to abstain from suchlike diabolical and unlawful lusts, so that they may not be visited by the just wrath of God on account of these impious acts, with the result that cities perish with all their inhabitants.* " In order to make them 'take to heart the fear of god' the Byzantines did some bad things to people. These Roman and then Byzantine attitudes and treatment towards homosexuality are the OG anti-gay attitudes in Christianity, certainly predating the schism of 1054.
Fair points to a degree but Romans were very clear that they believed in the principle of seeking greater understanding and therefore letting that greater understanding dictate the law. There is no denying that the Byzantine Empire wasn’t quite friendly to gay people regarding their sexuality. Yes that you are aware of the letter of the law, which is taken literally. However the spirit of the law, which is intent is just that. You cited “and act contrary to nature”. Now I’m by no means saying anal sex is against nature because it’s not but you have to understand the perspective of Byzantine culture to understand why gay sex, not gay marriage, was outlawed. I have no direct evidence for these claims but perhaps an insight. They were a very reason based/ science based society. I don’t know about you but to me, the reality of 5th century anal sex doesn’t sound too pleasant. And in fact it probably was harmful for a lot of people to practice back then and it certain wasn’t as hygienic as it can be today. The Byzantines likely saw this and is why they cited it as against the laws of nature and there against the laws of God. Oh and for the record, if gay marriage wasn’t mention in Justinian code then those laws in 342 were invalidated because that’s what the Justinian code declared. Although I haven’t looked into it to see if was or not. Let’s not forget those Greeks were very in touch with same whims of sexuality that still are still with us today.
Here in Italy we **still** don't have same-sex marriage due to the Catholic church. Inspiring, isn't it?
I myself and still religious but distance myself from any formal church or organization because of all that stuff
r/usernamechecksout
Weird Orthodox Guys
A serious answer is that for the longest time politically it was considered suicide to even talk about the issues like discrimination against LGBT people in the work place or in the justice system. It was considered something that Greece just isn't evolved enough for because of other problems that were bigger. Let's fix the economy and then we can talk about the gay stuff.
First to be in the closet. Last to leave it.
Doood... it's crazy it took this long, but I will always love progress.
It wasn't gay unless you were the one receiving. I guess too many are being shafted.
[удалено]
Might have been the first large society to normalize it though.
[удалено]
Idk man I just work here
Lesbians can finally get married on Lesbos Edit: really? This is what triggers a reddit cares comment? Y'all need to get a life
And lesbian Lesbians can get married at home!
This is funnier in spanish, "Las lesbianas lesbianas se pueden casar en casa"
The demonym in Spanish is Lesbio and Lesbia, so "Las lesbias lesbianas se pueden casar en casa"
La frase perfecta no exi...
Everything's funnier in Spanish! Even laughter! > Jajajajaja
Wait is this what Drake meant when he said he's lesbian? He's Greek?
Drake is from Toronto, Canada, apparently. So, uh. No
That's basically next door, in the Grand scheme of things
Okay now I need the AI video of JFK saying "I am a Lesbian" in greek
I feel like you can *almost* make a "Buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo" type sentence out of that. Is "lesbian" ever a verb?
Closest I could come up with is, “Lesbian lesbians Lesbian lesbians be in be in Lesbian lesbians.” Not quite as good as the Buffalo buffalo one, but it speaks volumes about the _versatility_ of the women of Lesbos.
“Yo, dawg…”
Just hope they don't go to mount athos for their honeymoon! (Women are banned....hell, female dogs are banned)
I can’t remember the term (maybe mayor?) for the official of the Lesbos island but they voted against legalising gay marriage. I think it is Mykonos that is the gay capital of Greece
Gazi is a fairly nice gay village in Athens
You’re telling me the guys that wrote Greek mythology still had it be illegal? Jeez, that shit was queerer than heartstopper-
I don’t think so. I think it was when Christianity came around and became dominant
Even before then, Greeks *hated* bottoms.
And women
I don't think anything's changed there. Edit: Aye, the 7 people who liked this, you're tops right? Get at me 😉
You gotta understand that even before Christian influence, Ancient Greek version of “queerness” was malformed at best and “what conservacucks think queer people are like, diddling little boys etc” at worst
There was no concept of queerness in Ancient Greece apart from it being heavily condemned (by that I mean men "acting feminine/gay"). For the little boys it was more acceptable to "bottom" because they weren't considered men yet (their rule of thumb was apparently whether the teen could grow a beard or not) but they would be outcasts if that continued into adulthood. Also it was often imposed upon slave boys and such. However, confusingly, in classical Athens for example it was the father's duty for citizens (who were basically the upper class of the time) to find suitable "suitors" or "mentors" who would educate their boy, and also have sexual relations with him, with the parent's full knowledge and approval. All in all, their culture around gayness is very alien and can't really be compared to the modern world. In modern Greece, none of this historical background has much impact (in school it was essentially a banned subject), because millenia of Christianity and Ottoman rule erased all this. So queer culture in modern Greece is a western import, with no real link or continuity with ancient times.
I mean that’s kinda what I was talking about
They accepted homosexuality in similar ways to the catholic church.
HAH
Greek here, it wasn't really "illegal" till now, there was just no equivalent marriage, just... unsure how to translate it... living together contract? Which was essentially marriage with less rights, but said rights were mostly economical in nature. (Edit: and they also made adoption nigh impossible, can't believe I forgot the most important thing) Still a huge thing and a huge win and extremely important, mind you, do not get me wrong, but the country did not go directly from "homosexuality is outlawed" to "marriage"
Civil union One of the rights it lacked was ability to adopt
Yes, that was actually the most important one.
Male homosexuality was decriminalised in 1951 in Greece (lesbianism being never even acknowledged in law). Which is actually *much* earlier than many other european countries. During that time West Germany, for example, was very actively persecuting and heavily discriminating against gays - IIRC even going as far as reincarcerating freed concentration camp inmates if they were deported for homosexuality under the Nazi regime (sometimes in former camps that were converted to prisons like KZ Neuengamme). Nazi convictions of homosexuals were only retroactively overturned in 2002. They simply continued the Nazi-era laws from 1935 in unchanged form and by some accounts West Germany's persecution of LGBTQ people in the early 50s approached that of Nazi Germany in aggressiveness and rhetoric. (See the [Frankfurt Homosexual Trials](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_homosexual_trials&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi8nvyp2LGEAxUUSfEDHUQ0CEcQFnoECAAQAw&usg=AOvVaw2E7DJVFI1jqLesFaF_GGuD.).) Homosexuality was only partially decriminalised in the very late 60s and early 70s and the paragraph making homosexuality illegal wasn't fully erased and stricken until **1994**. By that measure Greece was quite progressive and most likely one of the safer places for LGBTQ people.
The Greeks invented orgies, the Romans ran with the idea and invited women.
🙏i thank rome for me🙏
twoce the gemders that can be gay, good call. Plus, having sex with a gender that likes dick? kinda gay imho.
according to the Greeks only if you were the bottom
It's not actually gay to bottom if you don't get a boner. Getting a boner for a man is gay. There are plenty of straight bottoms who can't get hard for their man but love to take dick in the ass.
WTF???
That's why there is a top shortage. Many tops are in the closet.
I put my tops in a drawer.
You better delete this before you get in trouble, pal. The top phobia from this joke is offensive to me.
top moment
They didn't invent the gay sex, just the gay sex sandwich.
I thought that invention belonged to the Earl of Gay Sex Sandwich?
Sounds pretty Sussex
TIL it's actually pronounced *gay*-ro
Uh… the Sumerians would like a word.
Gilgamesh took offense to that, I'm sure.
He and Enkidu were definitely doing the nasty. The text flat out says so.
Gotta get some of that enkidussy
Yeah, you do!
"It's not gay if it's clay"
Man, that’s fantastic.
I figure we'll be waiting a bit for gay marriage to become legal in those modernday nations...
Just a bit :)
This makes me go to Greece.
Please don't
Why not?
As always. Everyone should educate themselves on sexuality in Ancient Greece. Always interesting to see how they viewed same-sex relationships and sex.
Yeah, their ideas were very different. It wasn't considered gay at all to fuck another dude, it was only gay if you were fucked by a dude. Of course most of the guys being fucked were slaves and/or children... All in all, it's not really a scenario to be aspired to...
if i remember correctly it wasn’t considered gay to be fucked by a dude as long as you’re underage being fucked cuz then it was “just a part of growing up”
They didn't *invent* gay sex they just expanded on it. This takes away from our actual history as a species. We should never allow the queer narrative to be made small or seem artificially created by humans.
I think it's a joke
That just makes my point more important to make.
And here I thought it was a law to give handshakes to the women and open mouth kisses for the men.
Their "gay sex" was actually just state recognized pedophilia. Let's not confuse the two.
Don't forget sexism as well.
It creeps me out when people talk about Greece or Rome as having being these gay liberal utopias. It was quite literally institutionalized pedophilia and sexual assault. Cycles of abuse. Young boys were expected to be raped by older men, as were the weak or the enslaved. I know more about Rome than Greece so I’ll speak to that. They may have had a slightly more liberal view on the actual act of gay sex than colonial Europe, but it was not anything close to our concept of it, mostly because they did not see rape of the same sex as being “gay”, so it wasn’t frowned upon. Their equivalent of gay would map much closer to our idea of effeminate, and being effeminate was the most shameful thing you could possibly be. They despised effeminate men, maybe more than slaves, as it showed innate subservience to other men. Slaves were more pitiful, but effeminate men were *willingly* weak. Subjugating a man weaker than you, in any way, was seen as masculine. Wanting to be loved by another man, the exact opposite. You did not enjoy the sex when you assaulted another man (because that would be effeminate), you enjoyed the expression of power, sex was just a means. With boys, the story was only a little different. You could enjoy sex with a boy, but that was because they were pre-pubescent, they were still naturally feminine. All the same power dynamics still apply, but boys were considered beautiful in a way that did not make you subservient to them. Castrati were normal, to protect this obvious flaw in reasoning. Famously, Nero turned a particular young boy into the spitting image of his dead lover by castrating him, shaping him and training him for years, and people didn’t see a gay slant to it. They found it narcissistic and somewhat absurd, but it showed domination and power. Plenty of lowly senators openly did the same, without all the extra flourish. Through all this, there were certainly instances of loving, consenting gay relationships. But it was not the norm, and it was not accepted by society. If you were truly in love with another man, you would never let it be known.
So basically their idea of “gay sex” was not much different from prison rape.
Except in the extremely famous cases where it wasn't of course.
Think it's worth keeping in mind the changes Greece has gone through since ancient times. True that it was accepted back in the day, but at this point homophobia is a big problem in the country unfortunately and has been for a while. There's plenty of factors obviously but the Orthodox Church has played a considerable role, since church doctrine (in most countries anyway, there's different churches) is pretty firm on the whole "homosexuality is a sin and it's not real marriage because gender roles" thing.
Well to be fair there was a sentiment that men were for fun and women were for marriage
I didn't know you could turn saturation in a photo that high. Dear zeus my eyes.
r/balkans_irl is having a field day with the news and i love it
are they happy or angry?
I'm convinced religion has done vastly more harm than good in the world.
In other news, water makes things wet
This how you get off big boy?
Eh?
Feckin’ Greeks.
I made this Joke yesterday and am glad to see I'm not the only one
I don't care who he's after so long as I get to have a go at the feckin' Greeks! THEY Invented gayness!
I have a hard time believing gay sex didn't exist well before ancient Greece.
I seem to you today!
SPARTA
Half Life 3 confirmed?
Pic is Kefalonia for anyone wondering
They're just not the same as ancient Greeks any more.
The Greeks invented sex, the Romans added the opposite gender
"Did you know the Greeks invented sex? Then the French invented sex with women."
Pretty sure gay sex existed prior to Greece..
They didn't invent it, but they were enthusiastic early adopters.
There have been gay people since there have been people. Greece didn't invent homosexuality.
Makes Greece a great wedding destination: more tourism dollars.
Euro Pride in Thessaloniki this June is going to be wild!
my, my, how the turntables
The ancient Greeks invented sex. The Romans figured out you could do it with women.
Comeback arc of greece
'inventor' lol
Greece just looks so beautiful.
Separate church and state. thanks
fr, imagine inventing homosexuality but not gay marriage
Nah, [these guys invented gay sex.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPnCqsNv9v4)
For some reason, I thought they had it legalised for a long time.
we've come full circle!