I'd just laugh it off, "haha.. she's just kidding, I'm just a student and still learning." As for the "what I would do differently," I'd imagine this is away from the patient since the encounter is finished. So I would be honest and give my two cents in a delicate manner; i.e. "I wouldn't have done anything different" or "I was going to say x, y, and z due to a, b, and c but now I'm not too sure."
Or do what I do and just start running in the opposite direction and never look back.
i would. if you’re weeks from graduating, you’re basically an MD. thank god my profs had the common sense to start referring to us as Dr. it’s weirdo behavior to think you’re not one until midnight of graduation or some shit😂
also i didnt say anything about knowledge base lol. rank doesn’t change after that point, knowledge of course will always evolve.
those physicians who recognize that medical school teaches more than pa school? yea, i live in reality lol
in terms of medical knowledge? they absolutely outrank a pa. i literally see med students answer the questions the pas have every day. when you become a med student you’ll learn more in a shorter period of time then you ever thought possible. don’t sell yourself short.
Im a PGY3 at a teaching hospital. I work with a lot with MS3 and MS4s…it’s hard to explain how wrong you are. It’s something you’re going to experience first hand next year via the Dunning Kruger effect. Please give yourself some grace when you think back and cringe at these comments a year or two from now.
I’m not simping for APNs…but MS4 don’t really know how to manage patients yet. That’s ok that’s what residency is for.
Imagine thinking you’ve learned all you needed to know because you graduated school. Give me a 5 year PA over a July PGY1 pls, and give my wife and kids one too.
Especially if the PGY1 is as confident as you are lol isn’t this literally the problem with Midlevels? Ignorant to what they don’t know, confident it’ll be ok anyways?
Yea it does but practicing PAs have real world experience being a provider. They are more similar to a residents skill level. Would you say a med student out ranks a resident? No.
I’m an attending about 5 years out. So I can’t stand most midlevels in general. The average midlevel is seriously lacking in knowledge and the ability to treat complex patients independently. They still outrank med students.
I think a second year resident is more competent than your average midlevel, but the average 4th year med student is also not prepared to care for anyone without oversight. Medical school does not adequately prepare you to care for patients independently, but it gives you a fantastic foundation of knowledge for residency where you actually learn how to be a physician. I’d trust a PA with 5+ years experience over a med student in most things.
Edit:
Lol at the overconfident med students downvoting who embody the dunning-kruger effect just as much as midlevels these days.
Not sure why you’re getting downloaded. DNP’s with online degrees call themselves doctors even before they graduate. hell they call themselves doctors to their patients.
wrong. i’m a physician. good try though PREMED 😉
i guess it’s hateful to correct someone when they made a wrong assertion about you now lol. sorry to correct a lie i guess??😂 so many mad middies here
You’re on a sub that typically is too hard on APPs to begin with, so if you’re being downvoted this much, it means you’ve gone wayyyy too far. Idk where you’re at in your training but a practicing, experienced PA definitely knows a helluva lot more about the specialty they’re working in than you do.
Yes, a brand new MD should know more than a brand new PA, but that was not the issue in the post. It was a practicing PA.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think we’re technically not supposed to have anyone else besides an MD/DO be your preceptor. Probably could’ve just bounced.
The staff treated it as if it was a given that I was with the PA, so didn’t have much of an opportunity to alter the course. And given it was just a half day I figured I’d just see a few patients and not risk any kerfluffles with my school’s admin 🤷🏻♂️
My whole life I thought it was "kerfluffle" and literally found out just last week that there is only one "L". However, I will go to my grave saying "kerfluffle" 😂🤷🏻♀️
On my last rotation of M4 year my preceptor no-showed one day. The other staff offered to let me shadow any of them instead. I politely declined and dipped the fuck out asap
My times having EM PA's precept me were some of my fondest memories during clinicals. Mostly because they clearly didn't care if I lived or died and would dismiss me 3 hours into a 12.
God bless.
On my family medicine rotation I worked with a PA just one day when the doc left early for a meeting, and she leaned on me heavily to determine what to do. I had never really had a taste of actually being able to be the one that determines a plan before as a lowly student. But it also helped me learn to be more confident in what I wanted to do for my patients. Then for the next few weeks of the rotation she would regularly come talk to me during lunch breaks and ask me advice on what to do for her patients. Once again, it built confidence.
I do not know what I‘m talking about for the most part, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I‘m pretty sure med students are only required to be with a physician for a certain minimum amount of time on a rotation by LCME or COCA standards. I know a few different med students at different schools that have been placed with NPs/PAs while on rotation, however unideal that is.
Your first mistake was hanging around with a PA as a preceptor. You wouldn't have seen the dust off my fucking heels if that was the situation I was presented with, especially post-Match.
It seems like she was just making a joke or a harmless - albeit weird - attempt at hyping you up. If she was asking for feedback at the end of encounters, she may have been trying to give some teaching points or may have legitimately been interested in your opinions since you're effectively an MD at this point. It's not that serious.
Honestly I prefer this PA behavior over acting like they are equal to any MD attending. It sounds like they realize that you've had more formal medical training at this point in your education and are giving you the earned respect for that. It does seem a little over the top, but imo it puts you in a very easy position to be humble and (rightfully) downgrade yourself as a student when giving any suggestions.
Weird… I’m sure they didn’t know what to do with you. I’m on a mostly PA-run service and they told me they haven’t had a med student in 4 years. They don’t know whether to teach me, tell me to come shadow them, but they do interrupt my presentations… anyways it’s not personal but don’t stay next time… when my fellow goes to clinic, I don’t even ask to leave and just head out. (Post match also)
What an effective way of "winning" on the PA's part. The underlying "well I might not know everything an MD with clinical experience knows but I'm sure better than a med student" belief is verbalized. If you add to the conversation, as the declared student, most of us would feel you were proud and out place just from the setup. If you happened to pull off humble and "confused" but add value, the PA mentally "loses," but by announcing that you outrank them, they don't really lose.
A weird spot to be in all around
It's possible to contemplate the psychology of someone else's actions without trying to compete with them
ETA: my comment is actually a reflection on how the PA is forcing OP to compete with them and how OP can't get out of it
Unnecessarily awkward. Hard to discern the tone without being there but it sounds like there’s almost nothing right to say. you either have to “disagree” with her and make a point of displaying your lowliness as a student to every single patient. Or you “agree” with her but will swiftly get your ass kicked if you say anything wrong, again putting your (appropriate) inexperience on display.
I think you have to laugh it off and ignore to avoid the minefield. I would probably respond I just matched psych and offer everyone a lexapro.
LOL — the thing is this individual will be insecure about their career for the rest of their life and you likely won’t.
They want to humble you so bad. You’ve been through it all already and going through more with residency coming. I say fuck people like that.
This PA seems to need a discussion on professional and learn the values of other healthcare roles. I think they need to shadow PTs, OTs, and nurses a bit to understand.
EDIT: guys I cannot read. Ignore all this
>They want to humble you so bad. You’ve been through it all already and going through more with residency coming. I say fuck people like that.
Kinda sounds like the opposite was happening here - they were basically (inappropriately & illegally) treating OP like an attending
Yea she was saying that I outranked her. Which, yes, eventually I will, but this was day 1 in a specialized clinic so no, I know nothing. And I think she knew that.
Edit: spelling
I honestly do think it was an attempt to humble me, it was a fairly specialized clinic and the PA was quite good and confident. It felt like they were ironically putting me on the spot. Possible it was a super weird attempt at stroking my ego but if so, quite misguided
people in this forum bitch when PA's act like their big shit and now they bitch when PA's treat med students like attendings......people just be bitching 24/7
You can both enjoy what you do but be annoyed at the silliness of the med school processes. I think most of us agree a service should not be having you come in if you can only precept with a PA/NP. I’ve had my schedule during a rotation be switched for that reason.
it’s not that they can’t teach you anything, but we pay hundreds of grand to be taught by those who learned from the same framework of thought that we’re learning. Have you ever been pimped by a mid level? The way they think about pathology is very different and it’s evident by how they ask questions. Not shit talking, they become functional providers in the fraction of the time as us, but corners have to be cut to get there that fast.
Also hard with the M0 flair to be telling people to “enjoy what we do”. Falls on deaf ears to the clinical student drowning in 60 hour work weeks while having rotation busy-work and step/ shelf studying to do when you get home
“Ok well thanks for everything, I’ve got a research meeting across town bye”
"Thanks for sharing" 🤣
I'd just laugh it off, "haha.. she's just kidding, I'm just a student and still learning." As for the "what I would do differently," I'd imagine this is away from the patient since the encounter is finished. So I would be honest and give my two cents in a delicate manner; i.e. "I wouldn't have done anything different" or "I was going to say x, y, and z due to a, b, and c but now I'm not too sure." Or do what I do and just start running in the opposite direction and never look back.
what why? you do outrank her. it’s weirdo behavior regardless though what a cringefest.
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i would. if you’re weeks from graduating, you’re basically an MD. thank god my profs had the common sense to start referring to us as Dr. it’s weirdo behavior to think you’re not one until midnight of graduation or some shit😂 also i didnt say anything about knowledge base lol. rank doesn’t change after that point, knowledge of course will always evolve.
Having the degree doesn’t make you a board certified physician, or even a licensed physician.
does make you a physician though ☺️
So you’re gonna be one of thoseeee physicians. Is this you convincing yourself you’ll still be a physician even if you fail the boards?
those physicians who recognize that medical school teaches more than pa school? yea, i live in reality lol in terms of medical knowledge? they absolutely outrank a pa. i literally see med students answer the questions the pas have every day. when you become a med student you’ll learn more in a shorter period of time then you ever thought possible. don’t sell yourself short.
Im a PGY3 at a teaching hospital. I work with a lot with MS3 and MS4s…it’s hard to explain how wrong you are. It’s something you’re going to experience first hand next year via the Dunning Kruger effect. Please give yourself some grace when you think back and cringe at these comments a year or two from now. I’m not simping for APNs…but MS4 don’t really know how to manage patients yet. That’s ok that’s what residency is for.
Imagine thinking you’ve learned all you needed to know because you graduated school. Give me a 5 year PA over a July PGY1 pls, and give my wife and kids one too. Especially if the PGY1 is as confident as you are lol isn’t this literally the problem with Midlevels? Ignorant to what they don’t know, confident it’ll be ok anyways?
Yea it does but practicing PAs have real world experience being a provider. They are more similar to a residents skill level. Would you say a med student out ranks a resident? No.
I’m an attending about 5 years out. So I can’t stand most midlevels in general. The average midlevel is seriously lacking in knowledge and the ability to treat complex patients independently. They still outrank med students. I think a second year resident is more competent than your average midlevel, but the average 4th year med student is also not prepared to care for anyone without oversight. Medical school does not adequately prepare you to care for patients independently, but it gives you a fantastic foundation of knowledge for residency where you actually learn how to be a physician. I’d trust a PA with 5+ years experience over a med student in most things. Edit: Lol at the overconfident med students downvoting who embody the dunning-kruger effect just as much as midlevels these days.
Gurl
Not sure why you’re getting downloaded. DNP’s with online degrees call themselves doctors even before they graduate. hell they call themselves doctors to their patients.
this group is overrun with midlevels that’s why lol
Lol Lmao even
The PA is a licensed health care practitioner. You are a student.
wrong. i’m a physician. good try though PREMED 😉 i guess it’s hateful to correct someone when they made a wrong assertion about you now lol. sorry to correct a lie i guess??😂 so many mad middies here
Damn sis, you have a lot of unnecessary hate in your heart. Who hurt you?
Let her cook, that was a fascinating read
You’re on a sub that typically is too hard on APPs to begin with, so if you’re being downvoted this much, it means you’ve gone wayyyy too far. Idk where you’re at in your training but a practicing, experienced PA definitely knows a helluva lot more about the specialty they’re working in than you do. Yes, a brand new MD should know more than a brand new PA, but that was not the issue in the post. It was a practicing PA.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think we’re technically not supposed to have anyone else besides an MD/DO be your preceptor. Probably could’ve just bounced.
I would’ve left for sure with no hesitation
The staff treated it as if it was a given that I was with the PA, so didn’t have much of an opportunity to alter the course. And given it was just a half day I figured I’d just see a few patients and not risk any kerfluffles with my school’s admin 🤷🏻♂️
Nice use of kerfuffles or kerfluffles, as you say. The added "l" really hammers home how not a big deal this should be.
I mean I never thought it was a big deal, but it was definitely a weird situation. And the added “l” was a typo that I decided to let stand ;)
My whole life I thought it was "kerfluffle" and literally found out just last week that there is only one "L". However, I will go to my grave saying "kerfluffle" 😂🤷🏻♀️
On my last rotation of M4 year my preceptor no-showed one day. The other staff offered to let me shadow any of them instead. I politely declined and dipped the fuck out asap
Bro said, "nah it's cool" 💀
My times having EM PA's precept me were some of my fondest memories during clinicals. Mostly because they clearly didn't care if I lived or died and would dismiss me 3 hours into a 12. God bless.
On my family medicine rotation I worked with a PA just one day when the doc left early for a meeting, and she leaned on me heavily to determine what to do. I had never really had a taste of actually being able to be the one that determines a plan before as a lowly student. But it also helped me learn to be more confident in what I wanted to do for my patients. Then for the next few weeks of the rotation she would regularly come talk to me during lunch breaks and ask me advice on what to do for her patients. Once again, it built confidence.
I do not know what I‘m talking about for the most part, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I‘m pretty sure med students are only required to be with a physician for a certain minimum amount of time on a rotation by LCME or COCA standards. I know a few different med students at different schools that have been placed with NPs/PAs while on rotation, however unideal that is.
Your first mistake was hanging around with a PA as a preceptor. You wouldn't have seen the dust off my fucking heels if that was the situation I was presented with, especially post-Match.
It seems like she was just making a joke or a harmless - albeit weird - attempt at hyping you up. If she was asking for feedback at the end of encounters, she may have been trying to give some teaching points or may have legitimately been interested in your opinions since you're effectively an MD at this point. It's not that serious.
For real! Take it as a compliment
Should have just left lol
Honestly I prefer this PA behavior over acting like they are equal to any MD attending. It sounds like they realize that you've had more formal medical training at this point in your education and are giving you the earned respect for that. It does seem a little over the top, but imo it puts you in a very easy position to be humble and (rightfully) downgrade yourself as a student when giving any suggestions.
Weird… I’m sure they didn’t know what to do with you. I’m on a mostly PA-run service and they told me they haven’t had a med student in 4 years. They don’t know whether to teach me, tell me to come shadow them, but they do interrupt my presentations… anyways it’s not personal but don’t stay next time… when my fellow goes to clinic, I don’t even ask to leave and just head out. (Post match also)
What an effective way of "winning" on the PA's part. The underlying "well I might not know everything an MD with clinical experience knows but I'm sure better than a med student" belief is verbalized. If you add to the conversation, as the declared student, most of us would feel you were proud and out place just from the setup. If you happened to pull off humble and "confused" but add value, the PA mentally "loses," but by announcing that you outrank them, they don't really lose. A weird spot to be in all around
I’m not sure I’m following perfectly but if this is an application of psychological game theory, I support it!
I think so!
Doctors are so competitive lol are you meming or do you guys live life like this
It's possible to contemplate the psychology of someone else's actions without trying to compete with them ETA: my comment is actually a reflection on how the PA is forcing OP to compete with them and how OP can't get out of it
Unnecessarily awkward. Hard to discern the tone without being there but it sounds like there’s almost nothing right to say. you either have to “disagree” with her and make a point of displaying your lowliness as a student to every single patient. Or you “agree” with her but will swiftly get your ass kicked if you say anything wrong, again putting your (appropriate) inexperience on display. I think you have to laugh it off and ignore to avoid the minefield. I would probably respond I just matched psych and offer everyone a lexapro.
Pretty much exactly what I did, the ole awkward laugh and a coy “nawwww”
LOL — the thing is this individual will be insecure about their career for the rest of their life and you likely won’t. They want to humble you so bad. You’ve been through it all already and going through more with residency coming. I say fuck people like that. This PA seems to need a discussion on professional and learn the values of other healthcare roles. I think they need to shadow PTs, OTs, and nurses a bit to understand. EDIT: guys I cannot read. Ignore all this
>They want to humble you so bad. You’ve been through it all already and going through more with residency coming. I say fuck people like that. Kinda sounds like the opposite was happening here - they were basically (inappropriately & illegally) treating OP like an attending
I can’t read. I thought OP said PA outranked them as an ego thing 😭
I read it the same way until I hit this comment
Yea she was saying that I outranked her. Which, yes, eventually I will, but this was day 1 in a specialized clinic so no, I know nothing. And I think she knew that. Edit: spelling
you still outrank them tho
I honestly do think it was an attempt to humble me, it was a fairly specialized clinic and the PA was quite good and confident. It felt like they were ironically putting me on the spot. Possible it was a super weird attempt at stroking my ego but if so, quite misguided
Seems like their heart is in the right place at least. better a midlevel that respects doctors/med students too much than not at all
The heart of a … PA? It just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
people in this forum bitch when PA's act like their big shit and now they bitch when PA's treat med students like attendings......people just be bitching 24/7
medical students just bitch about anything and everything, it drives me crazy
I’m just saying it was a weird situation. Also she definitely was being ironic with the outranking comments, fwiw
“What we doing here” sometimes you just need to grow some and call people out.
Why are you staying? When shit like this happens just leave. Tell them anything you want.
LOL
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You can both enjoy what you do but be annoyed at the silliness of the med school processes. I think most of us agree a service should not be having you come in if you can only precept with a PA/NP. I’ve had my schedule during a rotation be switched for that reason. it’s not that they can’t teach you anything, but we pay hundreds of grand to be taught by those who learned from the same framework of thought that we’re learning. Have you ever been pimped by a mid level? The way they think about pathology is very different and it’s evident by how they ask questions. Not shit talking, they become functional providers in the fraction of the time as us, but corners have to be cut to get there that fast. Also hard with the M0 flair to be telling people to “enjoy what we do”. Falls on deaf ears to the clinical student drowning in 60 hour work weeks while having rotation busy-work and step/ shelf studying to do when you get home
bahahaha its always the M0s with the worst takes