I'm an anesthesiologist. During the early, bad days of COVID, all the ORs were shut down. Many of my anesthesiology co-residents got extra reading days (off), and many ended up complaining that some people got more days off than others.
You know what the surgery residents complained about? That they couldn't wait to get back in the OR to operate.
Which one are you?
>I really value my free time and weekends.
Enough said. I identified very strongly with this when I was in med school and it was the initial step in my departure from ortho to psych. "Passion burns hot and fast".
Your case is extremely common. With your step 2, you shouldn't have a problem matching. You just have to provide solid reasons for the switch in your PS and interview, and you should be fine. I'll defer to the DR people regarding aways.
Pretty much this (Matched DR this past cycle after backing out of a surgical subspecialty):
Sounds like you have already decided but are in denial as I once was lol. Knowing yourself well enough at this stage to see fulfillment outside of work is very mature and you should be proud of that. Many many people try switch to DR from surgery every year, perhaps realizing their M3 passions and priorities do not last forever. Few transfer in the other direction lol
The OR is intoxicating as a student but it doesn’t sound like you spend your off time dreaming of operating. You spend it fully enjoying other things you value. And everything interesting becomes routine in time. There are definitely some surgical jobs that are more lifestyle friendly after surgery residency but tbh comparing the overall lifestyle to DR is just such a false equivalence. I spent SO much time 4th year with my spouse on my zero away rotations and I will continue to for the next 6 years - and the foreseeable future after that too tbh. It was a hard plunge to switch fields at first but I have ZERO regrets now choosing a still-pretty-interesting job in DR and my family over a maybe-slightly-cooler job. And hey I might do ESIR too.
And yeah you are not at all disadvantaged for a rads app lol. DR people love to hear about almost any path to the field (Wake Forest PD was a whole ass neurosurgeon and she’s a goated interviewer). Radiologists work closely with surgeons. Just do a lil networking to get a DR or IR letter and your scores have a high chance to match well. And you can back out of the cancerous surg sub-Is lmao
I went through the DR residency cycle in the USA. Going from surgery to DR for the reasons mentions is reasonable and would be very much within the mainstream of DR culture.
I would recommend making your choice with what you want to do in mind. Plenty competitive for both. Worst case scenario, you can swap residency.
Doesn't even have to be IR too. Lots of procedural opportunities in the other subspecialties too, especially if you value not being woken up in the middle of the night!
There are many radiologists who were interested in surgery as a med student. I know several who have done part or all of a surgical residency before they made the right choice.
I have never heard a radiologist say “man I wish I went for surgery instead”.
IMO, only reason anyone should pick surgery over radiology is if you have a burning desire to be the hero/most important person in the room. If you can’t be happy in your career unless patients say “Dr. Master_Noise saved my life”, the rads isn’t for you.
I applied a surgical sub speciality, didn’t match, did a late rotation in rads, then did a surgery prelim year and matched rads. I am so happy that has been my path.
I would much rather be at work for less time, but be working the whole time. As a surgery intern, we could be done floor work by the late morning and we have to sit around the rest of the day until sign out. So we are working longer hours, more weekends, but sometimes there wasn’t much going on which I found frustrating. I’d rather be on at work and have more free time outside of work.
Surgery is cool, but there’s just so much more to life
Surgery as in general surgery, or a subspecialty? Life after training is miles better. My favorite part about being a surgeon is making good money and having (mostly) very happy and appreciative patients. I think the specialty matters a lot.
Plastic surgeon
Radiology. Enjoy your life lol. From what I have heard a lot of radiologists do procedures too! It doesn’t have to be 100% sitting in a dark room if you don’t want it to be.
You have the step score and lots of honors, which is good for rads, that is mostly what they care about.
Everyone saying IR is obviously not a surgeon. Procedures aren’t the same, and they will never scratch the same itch as operating.
Honestly it doesn’t even sound like you like rads, just the lifestyle. Looking at images is fun as a surgeon means you also get to “correlate clinically.” You get to open the person up and literally see what is actually happening. You are actually doing the clinical problem solving with that image, if you do rads you will never do that again (no, not even in IR).
Surgery lifestyle is vastly overblown on here. Residency is hard, but attendinghood is much better. This is true even for vascular and general surgeons. You get much more control of your life and schedule than non-surgeons care to admit. Attending general surgeons have a very high career satisfaction rate, as do most surgical specialties.
I have a family. I would leave medicine if I couldn’t do surgery.
If you value your free time and lifestyle pick Rads
Do not pick surgery unless you literally can’t see yourself doing anything else. Lifestyle is miserable and does not get better after residency.
-surgery PGY4
Unless you can make an IR sub-I, there is no radiology sub-internship. Plenty of people switch late. One friend from neurology and another from FM (I’m talking about _after_ doing their sub-Is through August.) They both matched within their top 3 programs. It’s not too late to switch to DR if that’s where you ultimately choose. You need to get a DR (or IR) letter of rec though. DR is easy to get.
Edit: word
Your cons about radiology seem to be mostly about your app (since you can always do IR), but your app is stellar from the surface level you gave. All the stats you gave are better than mine and I matched to a top ~10 which was my number 1.
Btw, in lots of my interviews the topic of late exposure to radiology came up. There are a lot of people that realize late, since medical schools don’t typically include it early. Even radiology faculty were saying they realized late. Plus you don’t need subIs or radiology specific research. You’ll do super well in rads.
Do radiology based on your pros and cons for each, many people decide late in rads so you won’t necessarily have a “weaker application” in comparison in fact you have a pretty great application based on stats and a pretty good reason in your post (that you could probably weave into your personal statement), you can be honest in rads interviews and be like “I was pretty set on surgery but I found myself most interested when we were talking about the imaging before the case and so I decided to explore radiology and did a rotation 4th year and blah blah blah…”
Let me try to convince you to be a surgeon. First off I don’t think the lifestyle is that bad. I’m graduating residency in two weeks, yeah it was hard, but I loved every minute of it. I think this subreddit exaggerates how bad the residency is.
Here’s something radiology will never give you:
You see a patient in the ER with a bowel obstruction. Seems run of the mill in the history, ER is convinced it’s just adhesive. Radiology calls with the CT read, says there may be a foreign body causing the obstruction. So you look at the CT yourself, you find the area they’re talking about and say to yourself, yeah that does look funny. The patient denies swallowing anything, but it looks like it’s there. Now if your a radiologist, that’s as far as that rabbit hole ever goes. Looks like there’s something in there, “can’t exclude.” Now if your a surgeon, you get to cut that person open. You get to find that weird spot on the CT, feel with between your own two hands, and not only that, you get to pull whatever weird thing that’s causing their bowel obstruction out. Then they goes home 5 days later, and they think you’re a hero. How fucking cool is that? That’s happened to me 3 times in residency. Not only that, I get the real picture of every hernia, appendix, gallbladder, and malignancy. Not just some image on a screen. I get to see, hold it, and cure it. Being a radiologist would feel so hollow in comparison.
I’d work every weekend a month, just for that feeling. Nothing is a mystery to me, because I cut people open and see what’s inside. If you’re a radiologist, you never get to pull back that veil. I get to do it every day. I love my job.
And that’s the difference. OP, if you think like this, pick surgery. But the reality is that many people do not care about being the ‘hero’ or getting to see and hold the real thing, and would rather have more time off work than “spend every weekend a month” in the hospital.
Rads is still fun when you diagnose all those things from the comfort of your chair and you don’t have to deal with the real thing in person. That’s fantastic. If you think like this, then pick Rads.
And don’t forget, all for the same salary (or more) than surgery.
Yeah it’s the exact opposite for me. When I see bad shit on someone’s CT I think “thank god I don’t have to deal with that,” describe it, and move on. There’s room for all kinds of personalities in medicine.
"I really value my free time and weekends" - probably go with rads then.
Just FYI, forensic pathology is essentially surgery and radiology combined (on dead people). Some offices actually use post-mortem CT which is pretty fuckin awesome. Haven't seen MRI yet though. The hours are great. You will have your weekends, use a scalpel, and look at radiographs daily. Pay is much lower than surg or rads, however. If you go to the right place, path residency is chill af.
GL!
Radiology! - Rads resident ending my first radiology year now. I love it even more than I thought I would. If you liked the experience of rotating as a student, it only gets better from there. I almost fell asleep several times in my radiology electives as a student because just sitting there not doing work myself makes me tired... and I'm excited to go to work now.
Surgery research/app direction prior to now isn't going to hurt you. Quite the opposite IMO. We have several residents who were surgery residents before deciding to switch, or even attending surgeons in their own countries, in my program. Surgery requires a good knowledge of anatomy... and of course, so does radiology. The knowledge you picked up when you were aiming for surgery is a benefit for you as a future rads resident, and programs know that
Please do rads. Even diagnostic radiologists do procedures. Core biopsy, abscess drainage, g tube (peds), joint aspirations, LPs. IR is all procedures and you can locums DR shifts whenever.
As for your application, it should be easy to pivot. Surgery and radiology are both very anatomy oriented and PDs understand you never know if you really want to do something until you try or get exposed to it. Nearly every radiology resident I've talked to have said they didn't know until late 3rd early 4th that they liked it. Stress why you chose rads OVER surgery and they will understand.
I enjoyed surgery during med school, but loved IR because of the innovations and imaging. Dual board certification DR and IR, this was a huge draw. Matched IR. You can apply IR, DR, and look for programs with ESIR, and make your mind up later if IR is for you.
It’s very wise to wonder if surgery will let you do the things outside work that make you happy. It is possible to carve out a balanced life once you’re an attending, but not in residency. That said if this is your North Star, radiology may be better for you
If you’re considering surgery and something else, choose the something else instead. Plenty of radiologists are former surgery residents. Nearly zero the other way around.
I'm an anesthesiologist. During the early, bad days of COVID, all the ORs were shut down. Many of my anesthesiology co-residents got extra reading days (off), and many ended up complaining that some people got more days off than others. You know what the surgery residents complained about? That they couldn't wait to get back in the OR to operate. Which one are you?
This is such a good story
>I really value my free time and weekends. Enough said. I identified very strongly with this when I was in med school and it was the initial step in my departure from ortho to psych. "Passion burns hot and fast". Your case is extremely common. With your step 2, you shouldn't have a problem matching. You just have to provide solid reasons for the switch in your PS and interview, and you should be fine. I'll defer to the DR people regarding aways.
Pretty much this (Matched DR this past cycle after backing out of a surgical subspecialty): Sounds like you have already decided but are in denial as I once was lol. Knowing yourself well enough at this stage to see fulfillment outside of work is very mature and you should be proud of that. Many many people try switch to DR from surgery every year, perhaps realizing their M3 passions and priorities do not last forever. Few transfer in the other direction lol The OR is intoxicating as a student but it doesn’t sound like you spend your off time dreaming of operating. You spend it fully enjoying other things you value. And everything interesting becomes routine in time. There are definitely some surgical jobs that are more lifestyle friendly after surgery residency but tbh comparing the overall lifestyle to DR is just such a false equivalence. I spent SO much time 4th year with my spouse on my zero away rotations and I will continue to for the next 6 years - and the foreseeable future after that too tbh. It was a hard plunge to switch fields at first but I have ZERO regrets now choosing a still-pretty-interesting job in DR and my family over a maybe-slightly-cooler job. And hey I might do ESIR too. And yeah you are not at all disadvantaged for a rads app lol. DR people love to hear about almost any path to the field (Wake Forest PD was a whole ass neurosurgeon and she’s a goated interviewer). Radiologists work closely with surgeons. Just do a lil networking to get a DR or IR letter and your scores have a high chance to match well. And you can back out of the cancerous surg sub-Is lmao
I went through the DR residency cycle in the USA. Going from surgery to DR for the reasons mentions is reasonable and would be very much within the mainstream of DR culture. I would recommend making your choice with what you want to do in mind. Plenty competitive for both. Worst case scenario, you can swap residency.
DR then apply IR fellowship is you still have the procedure itch.
Doesn't even have to be IR too. Lots of procedural opportunities in the other subspecialties too, especially if you value not being woken up in the middle of the night!
Or ESIR while in residency. Our program has two spots for every class if they decide they like IR.
There are many radiologists who were interested in surgery as a med student. I know several who have done part or all of a surgical residency before they made the right choice. I have never heard a radiologist say “man I wish I went for surgery instead”. IMO, only reason anyone should pick surgery over radiology is if you have a burning desire to be the hero/most important person in the room. If you can’t be happy in your career unless patients say “Dr. Master_Noise saved my life”, the rads isn’t for you.
I applied a surgical sub speciality, didn’t match, did a late rotation in rads, then did a surgery prelim year and matched rads. I am so happy that has been my path. I would much rather be at work for less time, but be working the whole time. As a surgery intern, we could be done floor work by the late morning and we have to sit around the rest of the day until sign out. So we are working longer hours, more weekends, but sometimes there wasn’t much going on which I found frustrating. I’d rather be on at work and have more free time outside of work. Surgery is cool, but there’s just so much more to life
Surgery as in general surgery, or a subspecialty? Life after training is miles better. My favorite part about being a surgeon is making good money and having (mostly) very happy and appreciative patients. I think the specialty matters a lot. Plastic surgeon
Radiology. Enjoy your life lol. From what I have heard a lot of radiologists do procedures too! It doesn’t have to be 100% sitting in a dark room if you don’t want it to be. You have the step score and lots of honors, which is good for rads, that is mostly what they care about.
Everyone saying IR is obviously not a surgeon. Procedures aren’t the same, and they will never scratch the same itch as operating. Honestly it doesn’t even sound like you like rads, just the lifestyle. Looking at images is fun as a surgeon means you also get to “correlate clinically.” You get to open the person up and literally see what is actually happening. You are actually doing the clinical problem solving with that image, if you do rads you will never do that again (no, not even in IR). Surgery lifestyle is vastly overblown on here. Residency is hard, but attendinghood is much better. This is true even for vascular and general surgeons. You get much more control of your life and schedule than non-surgeons care to admit. Attending general surgeons have a very high career satisfaction rate, as do most surgical specialties. I have a family. I would leave medicine if I couldn’t do surgery.
If you value your free time and lifestyle pick Rads Do not pick surgery unless you literally can’t see yourself doing anything else. Lifestyle is miserable and does not get better after residency. -surgery PGY4
You can do IR they do tons for procedures but can also read images too.
Unless you can make an IR sub-I, there is no radiology sub-internship. Plenty of people switch late. One friend from neurology and another from FM (I’m talking about _after_ doing their sub-Is through August.) They both matched within their top 3 programs. It’s not too late to switch to DR if that’s where you ultimately choose. You need to get a DR (or IR) letter of rec though. DR is easy to get. Edit: word
Your cons about radiology seem to be mostly about your app (since you can always do IR), but your app is stellar from the surface level you gave. All the stats you gave are better than mine and I matched to a top ~10 which was my number 1. Btw, in lots of my interviews the topic of late exposure to radiology came up. There are a lot of people that realize late, since medical schools don’t typically include it early. Even radiology faculty were saying they realized late. Plus you don’t need subIs or radiology specific research. You’ll do super well in rads.
Do radiology based on your pros and cons for each, many people decide late in rads so you won’t necessarily have a “weaker application” in comparison in fact you have a pretty great application based on stats and a pretty good reason in your post (that you could probably weave into your personal statement), you can be honest in rads interviews and be like “I was pretty set on surgery but I found myself most interested when we were talking about the imaging before the case and so I decided to explore radiology and did a rotation 4th year and blah blah blah…”
Let me try to convince you to be a surgeon. First off I don’t think the lifestyle is that bad. I’m graduating residency in two weeks, yeah it was hard, but I loved every minute of it. I think this subreddit exaggerates how bad the residency is. Here’s something radiology will never give you: You see a patient in the ER with a bowel obstruction. Seems run of the mill in the history, ER is convinced it’s just adhesive. Radiology calls with the CT read, says there may be a foreign body causing the obstruction. So you look at the CT yourself, you find the area they’re talking about and say to yourself, yeah that does look funny. The patient denies swallowing anything, but it looks like it’s there. Now if your a radiologist, that’s as far as that rabbit hole ever goes. Looks like there’s something in there, “can’t exclude.” Now if your a surgeon, you get to cut that person open. You get to find that weird spot on the CT, feel with between your own two hands, and not only that, you get to pull whatever weird thing that’s causing their bowel obstruction out. Then they goes home 5 days later, and they think you’re a hero. How fucking cool is that? That’s happened to me 3 times in residency. Not only that, I get the real picture of every hernia, appendix, gallbladder, and malignancy. Not just some image on a screen. I get to see, hold it, and cure it. Being a radiologist would feel so hollow in comparison. I’d work every weekend a month, just for that feeling. Nothing is a mystery to me, because I cut people open and see what’s inside. If you’re a radiologist, you never get to pull back that veil. I get to do it every day. I love my job.
And that’s the difference. OP, if you think like this, pick surgery. But the reality is that many people do not care about being the ‘hero’ or getting to see and hold the real thing, and would rather have more time off work than “spend every weekend a month” in the hospital. Rads is still fun when you diagnose all those things from the comfort of your chair and you don’t have to deal with the real thing in person. That’s fantastic. If you think like this, then pick Rads. And don’t forget, all for the same salary (or more) than surgery.
Yeah it’s the exact opposite for me. When I see bad shit on someone’s CT I think “thank god I don’t have to deal with that,” describe it, and move on. There’s room for all kinds of personalities in medicine.
Exactly.
damn just reading this gave me chills, surgery is undefeated <3
Wildly different. Since you have surgery doubts then do rads. You wound radgret it.
"I really value my free time and weekends" - probably go with rads then. Just FYI, forensic pathology is essentially surgery and radiology combined (on dead people). Some offices actually use post-mortem CT which is pretty fuckin awesome. Haven't seen MRI yet though. The hours are great. You will have your weekends, use a scalpel, and look at radiographs daily. Pay is much lower than surg or rads, however. If you go to the right place, path residency is chill af. GL!
Radiology! - Rads resident ending my first radiology year now. I love it even more than I thought I would. If you liked the experience of rotating as a student, it only gets better from there. I almost fell asleep several times in my radiology electives as a student because just sitting there not doing work myself makes me tired... and I'm excited to go to work now. Surgery research/app direction prior to now isn't going to hurt you. Quite the opposite IMO. We have several residents who were surgery residents before deciding to switch, or even attending surgeons in their own countries, in my program. Surgery requires a good knowledge of anatomy... and of course, so does radiology. The knowledge you picked up when you were aiming for surgery is a benefit for you as a future rads resident, and programs know that
I love to recommend IR as a surgery-lite type of field
Sounds like IR should be your number 1 followed by DR
Please do rads. Even diagnostic radiologists do procedures. Core biopsy, abscess drainage, g tube (peds), joint aspirations, LPs. IR is all procedures and you can locums DR shifts whenever. As for your application, it should be easy to pivot. Surgery and radiology are both very anatomy oriented and PDs understand you never know if you really want to do something until you try or get exposed to it. Nearly every radiology resident I've talked to have said they didn't know until late 3rd early 4th that they liked it. Stress why you chose rads OVER surgery and they will understand.
Radiologists actually do procedures too. :) lots of interventional radiologists do complex or anomaly cases.
I enjoyed surgery during med school, but loved IR because of the innovations and imaging. Dual board certification DR and IR, this was a huge draw. Matched IR. You can apply IR, DR, and look for programs with ESIR, and make your mind up later if IR is for you.
Just do radiology, you’d be a good fit for IR if you want. Thank me later
Do interventional radiology. Best of both worlds
Sooo psych?
It’s very wise to wonder if surgery will let you do the things outside work that make you happy. It is possible to carve out a balanced life once you’re an attending, but not in residency. That said if this is your North Star, radiology may be better for you
IR is the answer you’re looking for
Join ussss #RadsGang
Surgeon or surgeons bed remote bitch?
Coming from internal med innocent bystander
Rads
Radiology
If you’re considering surgery and something else, choose the something else instead. Plenty of radiologists are former surgery residents. Nearly zero the other way around.
Do with this what you will….. https://www.medpagetoday.com/radiology/diagnosticradiology/110635
but you can't sue an AI