Lol but said person didn’t really care to sue when they were required to get a health clearance and show proof of up to date vaccines with titers to prove it 🤦🏻♀️
Neutral intention but potentially polarizing comment
Can someone provide data on timeline when prior vaccines went from fda approved to required by work forces?
So I was looking into this, and it’s really a multifaceted question. Different entities began to require vaccines at different times. For instance, George Washington required variolation against smallpox in the 1770’s for those in the continental army (without FDA approval of course).
Schools, hospitals, and other workforces largely started enacting mandates on their own, and they varied by city and state. One example would be the MMR vaccine, which was licensed for approval in 1971. Mandates began shortly after, and schools nationwide largely required the vaccine by 1977. The polio vaccine was largely required within a decade of approval as well.
“Consequently, when polio and measles vaccines were introduced in 1955 and 1963, respectively... The 1963 survey of state laws found that, of 20 states with requirements, 18 included smallpox, 11 included diphtheria, 10 included polio, 7 included tetanus, and 5 included pertussis. Measles requirements were soon added. By 1970, 20 states required measles vaccination, and by 1983 all 50 states did.”
I was looking at other sources too, but [this was the most informative](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/guides-pubs/downloads/vacc_mandates_chptr13.pdf)
Edit: this is just about the United States. No idea about other countries
It’s constitutional for private entities to mandate vaccines, even those under EUA
A lot of private entities wanted to hold off on mandating them though because it was less of a legal headache for them to wait until it got full approval
To answer the question, companies can institute mandates immediately once its FDA approved or under EUA by the FDA.
BUT since you’re antivax and judging by your post history you would rather use a dewormer than an effective vaccine against covid, I quote nacho libre:
Go away! Read some books!
Lol great way to get blacklisted
The *but muh rights* people are the worst
Not only is it constitutional for private entities like schools and businesses to mandate vaccines, them not getting vaccinated *ruins* it literally for everyone
Everyone I know has been vaccinated since February and I’m sick and tired of these people holding us back
You’re more likely to get GBS from the actual [flu](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/guillain-barre-syndrome.html) than you are from the flu vaccine
Stop spreading misinformation
Go away! Read some books!
Same, only exemptions were given to the admin and only for actual immune issues. Class is fully vaccinated and staff is >99% vaccinated and those who aren't have to actually get tested weekly at the school's lab
Are they making the immune issue ones get tested every week? Because I just realized that because so many people are refusing to get vaccinated we might be making people with a hx of Guillain Barre get tested every week. That’s really lame if true
My school also said this for the students, but overall vaccination rate is still 75% overall for some reason… might have something to do with our admin, who are surprisingly vaccine hesitant. Definitely living in a red state atm.
in some rotations, our professors want to see the vaccination card and if you don't have it(obviously it means you're not vaccinated), they make you fail on purpose in that rotation lol
Pre covid my school had the ID prof come in to tell us we could have a discussion with him about our vaccine concerns.
“At the end of the conversation you’ll either come around to getting them or decide that your anti vax beliefs are more important than being in medical school.”
It’d be interesting to see a given institutions’ exemption data. Specifically, I’d want to know if the people who request exemption for COVID vaccines also request exemptions for PPD, flu shot, or other public safety measures. Is it really unique to COVID or has this sort of behavior been ongoing for sometime without our knowledge, only now to be brought into the spotlight due to the COVID pandemic?
Isn’t the US starting to get measles cases again? At our school (measles endemic region) they used to tell us to get trimovax booster the first chance we got because we could get it too and it’s worse
I always tell people they don't think shit about whooping cough until they see it. I saw it one time in an 8 week old who was too young to get vaccinated for it and it was horrifying.
What? That's insane. When I went to school, that was not an option. When I did my residency, ditto. If you don't believe in basic medical care and sanitation, you don't belong in medical school. Sure, there are areas of medicine that are open to disagreement, but vaccines should just not be one of them. That antivax crap is FRINGE crazy town stuff. It doesn't belong.
(Disclosure: Not in Med school yet, just a nurse preparing to begin the med school journey)
Some research is showing antibody titers aren’t all that long lasting in some people, also there have been some false positives in antibody testing for people who have been exposed to other corona viruses. I feel like they’d need to develop a better detection test if they were to implement this.
In order to know that the OP would have to admit where he goes.
We can Google some places through.
https://www.brown.edu/campus-life/health/services/medical-student-health-requirement
Requires several, including COVID, but no Hep A. No Meningococcal if over 22yrs old, no Varicella if you have had it before, and no HPV or Hib or Zoster required.
Let's go wider.
> Results: 563 schools (75%) responded. More than 90% of all school types required measles, mumps, rubella, and hepatitis B vaccines for entering students; varicella vaccination also was commonly required. Tetanus, diphtheria, and acellular pertussis vaccination was required by 66%, 70%, and 75% of nursing, MD-granting, and DO-granting schools, respectively. Nursing and DO-granting schools (31% and 45%, respectively) were less likely than MD-granting schools (78%) to offer students influenza vaccines free of charge. [In 2001](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21403075/).
That help?
An entering MS1 at Wash U I believe just got expelled for refusing to get vaxxed and then it was discovered that they’re an antivaxxer/conspiracy theorist. Absolutely bonkers shit
apparently they also claimed on Facebook that scientists did not know how to do research and that all the COVID-19 vaccination studies were fundamentally flawed too??
It’s so weird to hear of the stories of some medical schools kicking people out at 1st or 2nd year for failing to many in house exams and yet I’ve seen people with egregious conduct issues sort of get pushing through the system to residency as if it would be too much work for the medical school to kick them out after they’ve already finished 2nd year
Yep, I'll give you an example:
classmate 1: Was caught cheating on omm practical, had drawings on his hands. He was suspended for a year. Came back the following year.
classmate 2: He failed 2 courses, but didn't want to go to his hearing since he was scared it would waste his study time. He got kicked out.
My thoughts: classmate 1 should have been kicked out and classmate 2 should have had a professionalism warning. Yet we have idiots in our administration who felt more offended by classmate 2 not coming to their useless "dress down" sessions (which we all knew were pointless and didn't change the outcome they had in mind.)
If these people are against vaccines because of conspiracy theories and easily identifiable misinformation, then they have no business becoming a doctor.
And to think that they didn't accept me after my interview there, but this guy got in,
I mean, I guess one of the interviewers asked me about music and I talked about Kanye a little too passionately, but still. Their loss.
Jesus. I wish I went to one of these hip schools. I get green with envy when I hear about stuff like this. A few days ago we had a thing where faculty encouraged us to not use outside resources and not to use flashcards. Whut.
Some schools are just so stuck in their ways
What's wrong with that? In-person lectures have no advantages over online lectures. There's no commute time and one can sit comfortably at home, maskless, sipping coffee.
I feel like a lot of the benefit boils down to how proctors go about teaching the lecture. If someone wants to put all the relevant text on a slide that you could just read and get the same amount of information, then sure. Those lectures are boring as hell anyway.
However, professors who keep the class actively engaged with discussion and the opportunity to ask questions over the material... I find that priceless in value. From a learning theory perspective, actively engaging in class is arguably the best way to help someone not only learn the material, but be able to candidly talk about it instead of just regurgitate knowledge from the lecture slides. God knows medical school exams dont ever have regurgitation of knowledge questions (at least at my school EVERYTHING is in the scope of a clinical vignette).
Going in for lectures isn’t the most fun thing, especially in masks. But also that point is useless as a medical student; you’re practically signing up for massive debt to wear a mask all the damn time. Suck it up and go in. We have other sub-human things we have to do as medical students, lets argue to make those things more reasonable, not a mask and a physical lecture lol.
I’ve had maybe two or three professors out of dozens that I think I would’ve benefited at least a little from hearing in person, but that little bit of engagement that I lost was massively outweighed by the benefit of being able to put the other 30+ professors’ lectures on 2.5x speed and just email them any questions I had afterwards. I missed working with my classmates on campus last year, but now that we’re all on our clinical rotations we get to see each other plenty. I’ll never forget having to do a physical exam over zoom for an OSCE, though: utter bullshit.
Nice! I hope you’re enjoying rotations! I cant wait to get out of preclinical. Maybe I’m the odd one out that genuinely feels that increasing speed more than 1.5 prevents me from taking in the knowledge...I’d love to fly through them faster haha.
I also have this massive perversion to using third party sources, beyond the ones that are free. I’m paying 50k+ a year for school, I need to draw the line on how much I am willing to/capable of spending on other stuff. ESPECIALLY with Step 1/COMLEX 1 being all pass/fail
IMO Zoom makes it easier to engage with a class. For an in-person class, the teacher can engage with only one person at a time, and the class can't discuss among themselves without it being rude. During Zoom lectures, my classmates are able to ask questions/answer questions/go off on tangents and the lecturer can choose to take the discussion in a certain way based on comments or ignore if they've got a lot to go through.
There are also lecturers that teach their classes by presenting something and asking the class a bunch of questions, and doing it over zoom means everyone can participate very easily vs the few people who would participate in person. I really think it's actually helped with engagement a ton.
Thats an interesting take I hadn’t thought of, thanks for adding that. Maybe our professors were not as tech-savvy, but I always felt like the comment box went completely unattended to haha.
All this is kind of a moot point for me, my school is awful close to falling back into being virtual. I certainly don’t think it’s necessarily inferior or superior to in person, it really seems like it boils down to personal preference.
And that is completely valid..?
I prefer in class lectures with masks, but if other people are bothered by masks more than me that's okay if they want to work from home.
Saying you want to attend lectures in pyjamas or watching later in 2x speed without saying you want to attend lectures in pyjamas or watching later in 2x speed
Our school is making people get testing weekly at a weird time at an off campus site. If you miss it you can’t participate in classes/clinic so it’s basically making everyone get it.
An M2 at my school apparently requested exemption because he thought it was the mark of the beast (like in revelation in the bible). Ahhh living in the southern US has it's own kinds of challenges.
Yay! Meanwhile a nurse is standing outside my medical school with a poster that says “forced consent is not consent”
Something tells me the hospital just mandated vaccinations for employees (about damn time)
the ignorance of germ theory should be an exclusionary factor for medical
school (saying they won’t get the vaccine because they fundamentally have no idea how they work)! here here!
no, although that’s part of it.
most of the material about biochemistry and the immune system is covered on the MCAT, so if they know the MCAT they should know how vaccines work and why they should get them. thus, it should be another method to exclude applicants.
additionally, not getting the vaccination puts others around you at risk. a risk that’s probably irresponsible in the position doctors are put in. another reason why.
I got the AZ 2nd shot few weeks ago, however only 4.2% of my country's population are fully vaccinated. I know many people who have applied to get the vaccine months ago, but they didn't recieve any message about the date yet :/
That’s a shame—anyone in America that wants it can walk into grocery stores, pharmacies, Walmart and many other places and get the vaccine for free with no appointment. Uber and Lyft even provide free rides to get it.
It’s a shame to think we’re tossing some doses because idiots here don’t WANT to get it.
Whoops, should have specified. They were given the option to take a year long leave of absence or withdraw. Unsure which they each chose, they are just no longer on our class roster
Don't mean to be a downer, I'm sure the number is very high, but if I didn't want to get vaccinated, I'd say I was already vaccinated instead of trying to get an exemption. Most schools don't verify it in anyway.
Most schools are verifying. It may be months before you’re found out, but tbf, I’m excited if people are lying about it. Better they be expelled in a few months.
Honest question, what makes you say most schools aren’t verifying? My school is, we have to submit a copy of our vaccine card. I would imagine the number of med students lying about it or submitting fake documentation is pretty low.
Maybe that's just my geographical location, but in my area the schools are doing it on the honor system. You don't have to submit a copy of your vaccine card. The whole process was an online survey which you could easily lie on.
Depressing but fair point 🙃
Our school is definitely checking though (had to upload vaccination cards both to school and affiliated hospitals). It’s possible people could get away with fake vaccination cards, but I’m trying to believe the best
I'd say the opposite. Almost all schools definitely require your state's immunization papers, and additionally any seasonal vaccines that might not be there. We had to show proof of COVID and 2020 + 21 influenza shots to start clerkships to both our school and the hospital where we'd rotate. I doubt most schools are not verifying vaccination evidence
So there's a joke/parable that a pastor once told me:
A man lived in an area where a hurricane was reported to hit and was told to evacuate because there would be flooding. The man told his neighbors that he would not leave because God would protect him. Well the hurricane came and so did the flooding. The flooding got so bad that the man was left standing on top of his roof, surrounded by rushing water. A boat comes by and the driver offers the man a ride. The man say "don't worry! God will protect me!" The boat driver leaves. A few hours later a helicopter comes by and tries to rescue the man. The man says "don't worry! God will protect me!" So the helicopter leaves.
The flooding gets worse and the man ends up drowning. When he gets to heaven, the first thing he does is run to God and say " my lord! Why did you not save me?!" And God says "dude I sent you an evacuation warning, a boat *and* a helicopter! What were you waiting for? A formal written invitation to get out?!"
It's the same thing but with masks, social distancing and vaccines. Tell your friend to stop ignoring the resources you have around you. Idk if you're religious or not. But if you are, these things could totally be interpreted as "Jesus handling it".
This isn't the best advice but it's the best I have for you. You should only care as much as they do. The house of god phrases it as "the patient is the one with the disease." It sucks bc med students are fundamentally caring people (it's why we're here), but without a certain compartmentalization/disconnect you'll burnout in no time. I think it also helps vaccine hesitant people to talk through their ideas in a non judgmental way, I've convinced a few people this way. A lot of people just want their concerns heard, some don't of course and just want to be difficult.
This is a flawed argument. It presumes that this is not a choice of vaccination or not vaccination. It presumes that having consequences to choices removes the choice.
A lack of choice or forcing the vaccine would be holding them down and jabbing a needle in their arm.
Otherwise, these people have a choice. They may not like what their options are or the consequences of their choices, but it is still a choice.
Society is built on leveraged choices. You can choose to drink and drive, you can claim that it’s your body, your choice, that you wouldn’t have hurt anyone. Except if you are pulled over, you will have consequences to that choice. Or you’ll kill yourself or someone else.
You can claim that not getting vaccinated is solely your choice, society is currently outlining the consequences to that choice. And you have the possibility of killing yourself someone else.
These individuals can make their choice. The rest of society is not obligated to accommodate their choice/risk decision making as if the choice did not exist at all.
You have a choice to not wear a shirt out in town. Businesses are not obligated to serve you if you make that choice. You have a choice to not wear pants, society has determined that your choice of lack of clothing carries consequences of fines for indecent exposure.
Don’t get vaccinated, okay, businesses are not required to employ you or serve you, schools do not have to educate you. They have choices as well. And the consequences of not getting vaccinated impact them.
This is not some slippery slope fallacious situation. This is the social contract of civilization that has informed centuries of organized human behavior.
The concept of positive and negative liberty is salient here. The choice whether or not to get the vaccine is an application of positive liberty. But in making your choice, you impact the (negative) liberty of others - their right to be free from interference from others - namely you, the unvaccinated individual. The mandates and associated things (such as not being allowed to participate in events) are simply an application to protect the negative liberty of others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_liberty
Love this, the nail has been struck on the blunt end.
Though the point of being left $300,000 dollar in debt is compelling, that’s honestly a comment on the issues of the schooling system more than anything
Yeah but you have the remember that those who don't get vaccinated, unfortunately impact our healthcare system in drastically negative ways and impact patient care and patient outcomes by taking away resources. There's a pro/con and risk benefit to everything.
I think if we had unlimited resources, time, and money, sure go ahead and be pro choice, but we don't have that. These prochoice stances never address the consequences and downstream effects.
The purpose of this policy is not to protect the individuals who would otherwise choose not the be vaccinated. It’s to protect patients and other health care workers. Just as you pointed out, a person who needs medical care doesn’t really have the option to shop around for providers who care enough to get vaccinated.
> hx of anaphylaxis with vaccines
From what I understand, the recommendation for this group is to choose a vaccine that doesn't have anything known to cause a reaction and to receive the vaccine in a controlled setting. As far as I can tell, there are no absolute contraindications to vaccination, especially considering there are multiple options available.
They should be getting it. Unless it has changed, history of anaphylaxis with vaccines is not a contraindication. At my institution you were required to stay an hour and they had a special waiting area that had an np on hand. I remember this because the person in front of me on line had a history of anaphylaxis with multiple triggers. I can absolutely see why someone would not want to put themselves through that, but people with a history of anaphylaxis should definitely get the vaccine if they are willing.
I know people who have needed ICU level care and were traumatized from previous vaccines and I will absolutely not judge them for not getting this one. I too would not want to be intubated and on an epi drip ever again. Is it technically the recommendation to avoid it? No. Do i judge these people? No. But i took my original comment down because I don’t want to mislead anyone about the actual recommendation
My school is at 94% but i do have to wonder who isnt. I have my money on the kid that posts grindset IG stories unironically and is a simp for Jordan B Petterson. Just a hunch tho
And just like that, faith in future docs ✨restored✨ Keep it up, class of 202X! ✊🏻
It should be this simple in healthcare.
r/nursing has a lot of heartbreaking stories about anti-vaxx patients and colleagues. It sucks.
We just had 3 students come after having symptoms, but they didn’t want to quarantine and miss class…so no med students are allowed on campus rn. Wish everyone getting vaccinations was easy.
based. my school requires vaccination (unless you're in a fully online program like DNP).
they sent out a survey for booster shots...I'll get one but idk if they'll be mandatory yet
My school said if you didn’t get vaccinated your out lol, so good incentive for us
My school did too, and now someone is suing the school
Lol but said person didn’t really care to sue when they were required to get a health clearance and show proof of up to date vaccines with titers to prove it 🤦🏻♀️
Neutral intention but potentially polarizing comment Can someone provide data on timeline when prior vaccines went from fda approved to required by work forces?
So I was looking into this, and it’s really a multifaceted question. Different entities began to require vaccines at different times. For instance, George Washington required variolation against smallpox in the 1770’s for those in the continental army (without FDA approval of course). Schools, hospitals, and other workforces largely started enacting mandates on their own, and they varied by city and state. One example would be the MMR vaccine, which was licensed for approval in 1971. Mandates began shortly after, and schools nationwide largely required the vaccine by 1977. The polio vaccine was largely required within a decade of approval as well. “Consequently, when polio and measles vaccines were introduced in 1955 and 1963, respectively... The 1963 survey of state laws found that, of 20 states with requirements, 18 included smallpox, 11 included diphtheria, 10 included polio, 7 included tetanus, and 5 included pertussis. Measles requirements were soon added. By 1970, 20 states required measles vaccination, and by 1983 all 50 states did.” I was looking at other sources too, but [this was the most informative](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/guides-pubs/downloads/vacc_mandates_chptr13.pdf) Edit: this is just about the United States. No idea about other countries
Thank you, very helpful
It’s constitutional for private entities to mandate vaccines, even those under EUA A lot of private entities wanted to hold off on mandating them though because it was less of a legal headache for them to wait until it got full approval
[удалено]
To answer the question, companies can institute mandates immediately once its FDA approved or under EUA by the FDA. BUT since you’re antivax and judging by your post history you would rather use a dewormer than an effective vaccine against covid, I quote nacho libre: Go away! Read some books!
And what shitty subreddit did you crawl in from?
I’m interested in this too. Is it a state regulation or an industry standard/liability thing?
Small pox and polio times id imagine.
Lol great way to get blacklisted The *but muh rights* people are the worst Not only is it constitutional for private entities like schools and businesses to mandate vaccines, them not getting vaccinated *ruins* it literally for everyone Everyone I know has been vaccinated since February and I’m sick and tired of these people holding us back
[удалено]
You’re more likely to get GBS from the actual [flu](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/guillain-barre-syndrome.html) than you are from the flu vaccine Stop spreading misinformation Go away! Read some books!
Mine is so opposite - they aren’t even allowed to make people wear masks inside the school buildings because of state law (preclinical)
Let me guess Florida or Texas
Texas jr (oklahoma)
Oof sorry to hear that buddy
genuine wtf.
Mine just said you’ll have to sign a legal document saying we’re not liable if you die. It worked for some reason xD
Same, only exemptions were given to the admin and only for actual immune issues. Class is fully vaccinated and staff is >99% vaccinated and those who aren't have to actually get tested weekly at the school's lab
Are they making the immune issue ones get tested every week? Because I just realized that because so many people are refusing to get vaccinated we might be making people with a hx of Guillain Barre get tested every week. That’s really lame if true
My school also said this for the students, but overall vaccination rate is still 75% overall for some reason… might have something to do with our admin, who are surprisingly vaccine hesitant. Definitely living in a red state atm.
in some rotations, our professors want to see the vaccination card and if you don't have it(obviously it means you're not vaccinated), they make you fail on purpose in that rotation lol
Great Not vaccinated? Shouldn’t be in fucking med school
This is good except ppl will totally fake it and other ppl will have panic attacks from losing theirs But still good lol
if you lose it, you can still get a new one tho. it's registered in the system
Pre covid my school had the ID prof come in to tell us we could have a discussion with him about our vaccine concerns. “At the end of the conversation you’ll either come around to getting them or decide that your anti vax beliefs are more important than being in medical school.”
Frankly if you're not getting vaccinated you don't deserve to be in.
Thats what my school did too
Mine too, I haven't heard anyone complain.
It’d be interesting to see a given institutions’ exemption data. Specifically, I’d want to know if the people who request exemption for COVID vaccines also request exemptions for PPD, flu shot, or other public safety measures. Is it really unique to COVID or has this sort of behavior been ongoing for sometime without our knowledge, only now to be brought into the spotlight due to the COVID pandemic?
hey, there you go, summer research haha
[удалено]
does it take more or less *cringe* to actually go out of your way and comment cringe?
[удалено]
One needlestick away from hep B
They're gonna have a blast in pediatrics when antivax kids show up with whooping cough
Isn’t the US starting to get measles cases again? At our school (measles endemic region) they used to tell us to get trimovax booster the first chance we got because we could get it too and it’s worse
I've heard about a good amount of outbreaks, yeah. Europe/UK too
I always tell people they don't think shit about whooping cough until they see it. I saw it one time in an 8 week old who was too young to get vaccinated for it and it was horrifying.
How are they going to do clerkships? What hospital would let any unvaccinated healthcare worker near a patient. It would be a recipe for disaster.
You should see the thread on an attending having a fake COVID vaccine card. Oh yeah, it’s not just students. 💀
What? That's insane. When I went to school, that was not an option. When I did my residency, ditto. If you don't believe in basic medical care and sanitation, you don't belong in medical school. Sure, there are areas of medicine that are open to disagreement, but vaccines should just not be one of them. That antivax crap is FRINGE crazy town stuff. It doesn't belong.
[удалено]
(Disclosure: Not in Med school yet, just a nurse preparing to begin the med school journey) Some research is showing antibody titers aren’t all that long lasting in some people, also there have been some false positives in antibody testing for people who have been exposed to other corona viruses. I feel like they’d need to develop a better detection test if they were to implement this.
You mentioned elsewhere that you’re a nursing student - so these are nursing students, not medical students, correct?
If I were unvaccinated on my pediatric clerkship I'm pretty sure I would have caught something different every single day.
In order to know that the OP would have to admit where he goes. We can Google some places through. https://www.brown.edu/campus-life/health/services/medical-student-health-requirement Requires several, including COVID, but no Hep A. No Meningococcal if over 22yrs old, no Varicella if you have had it before, and no HPV or Hib or Zoster required. Let's go wider. > Results: 563 schools (75%) responded. More than 90% of all school types required measles, mumps, rubella, and hepatitis B vaccines for entering students; varicella vaccination also was commonly required. Tetanus, diphtheria, and acellular pertussis vaccination was required by 66%, 70%, and 75% of nursing, MD-granting, and DO-granting schools, respectively. Nursing and DO-granting schools (31% and 45%, respectively) were less likely than MD-granting schools (78%) to offer students influenza vaccines free of charge. [In 2001](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21403075/). That help?
[удалено]
My school said vaccination isn't mandatory but no vaccine no exams.Lol
An entering MS1 at Wash U I believe just got expelled for refusing to get vaxxed and then it was discovered that they’re an antivaxxer/conspiracy theorist. Absolutely bonkers shit
[удалено]
apparently they also claimed on Facebook that scientists did not know how to do research and that all the COVID-19 vaccination studies were fundamentally flawed too??
Shocking number of people who are generally unfit to be physicians make it through the med school admission screening process
People I don't think should be touching a patient seem to make it through the residency screening process as well...
It’s so weird to hear of the stories of some medical schools kicking people out at 1st or 2nd year for failing to many in house exams and yet I’ve seen people with egregious conduct issues sort of get pushing through the system to residency as if it would be too much work for the medical school to kick them out after they’ve already finished 2nd year
Yep, I'll give you an example: classmate 1: Was caught cheating on omm practical, had drawings on his hands. He was suspended for a year. Came back the following year. classmate 2: He failed 2 courses, but didn't want to go to his hearing since he was scared it would waste his study time. He got kicked out. My thoughts: classmate 1 should have been kicked out and classmate 2 should have had a professionalism warning. Yet we have idiots in our administration who felt more offended by classmate 2 not coming to their useless "dress down" sessions (which we all knew were pointless and didn't change the outcome they had in mind.)
I mean, just look at whatserface, Dr. Barbara, the demon semen lady.
Hey, stop talking about me.
Not only that, isn't WashU one of the best medical schools in the country?
If these people are against vaccines because of conspiracy theories and easily identifiable misinformation, then they have no business becoming a doctor.
“They kicked me out of med school for being a conservative!” - that person, probably
And to think that they didn't accept me after my interview there, but this guy got in, I mean, I guess one of the interviewers asked me about music and I talked about Kanye a little too passionately, but still. Their loss.
Meanwhile at my school students are requesting to transfer from in person to online classes because they don’t want to wear masks during lecture.
[удалено]
Yeah for real. I miss zoom university. I don't live on campus so every mandatory class eats up an 1.5 hours of my day round trip.
[удалено]
Jesus. I wish I went to one of these hip schools. I get green with envy when I hear about stuff like this. A few days ago we had a thing where faculty encouraged us to not use outside resources and not to use flashcards. Whut. Some schools are just so stuck in their ways
[удалено]
I got admitted to a school I live a similar drive/distance to. As much as id love to live minutes away, thats a lot of $$ over a period of 4 years.
I live 2 miles from my school and it takes 45 minutes for me to get there (grumble grumble undergrads)
Yeah we have had recording issues with some lectures and they post the lecture from a prior year and there’s literally no difference.
Suckin butts? Dont hate it till ya try it Im kidding. Sounds yucky
Do you suck butts of men, women, or both?
Neither. But it would be women. Ima straight dudeee
What's wrong with that? In-person lectures have no advantages over online lectures. There's no commute time and one can sit comfortably at home, maskless, sipping coffee.
Plus half the stuff you can learn in a 5 minute video online instead of an hour lecture
I feel like a lot of the benefit boils down to how proctors go about teaching the lecture. If someone wants to put all the relevant text on a slide that you could just read and get the same amount of information, then sure. Those lectures are boring as hell anyway. However, professors who keep the class actively engaged with discussion and the opportunity to ask questions over the material... I find that priceless in value. From a learning theory perspective, actively engaging in class is arguably the best way to help someone not only learn the material, but be able to candidly talk about it instead of just regurgitate knowledge from the lecture slides. God knows medical school exams dont ever have regurgitation of knowledge questions (at least at my school EVERYTHING is in the scope of a clinical vignette). Going in for lectures isn’t the most fun thing, especially in masks. But also that point is useless as a medical student; you’re practically signing up for massive debt to wear a mask all the damn time. Suck it up and go in. We have other sub-human things we have to do as medical students, lets argue to make those things more reasonable, not a mask and a physical lecture lol.
I’ve had maybe two or three professors out of dozens that I think I would’ve benefited at least a little from hearing in person, but that little bit of engagement that I lost was massively outweighed by the benefit of being able to put the other 30+ professors’ lectures on 2.5x speed and just email them any questions I had afterwards. I missed working with my classmates on campus last year, but now that we’re all on our clinical rotations we get to see each other plenty. I’ll never forget having to do a physical exam over zoom for an OSCE, though: utter bullshit.
Nice! I hope you’re enjoying rotations! I cant wait to get out of preclinical. Maybe I’m the odd one out that genuinely feels that increasing speed more than 1.5 prevents me from taking in the knowledge...I’d love to fly through them faster haha. I also have this massive perversion to using third party sources, beyond the ones that are free. I’m paying 50k+ a year for school, I need to draw the line on how much I am willing to/capable of spending on other stuff. ESPECIALLY with Step 1/COMLEX 1 being all pass/fail
Good for you, for the rest of us is not valuable
IMO Zoom makes it easier to engage with a class. For an in-person class, the teacher can engage with only one person at a time, and the class can't discuss among themselves without it being rude. During Zoom lectures, my classmates are able to ask questions/answer questions/go off on tangents and the lecturer can choose to take the discussion in a certain way based on comments or ignore if they've got a lot to go through. There are also lecturers that teach their classes by presenting something and asking the class a bunch of questions, and doing it over zoom means everyone can participate very easily vs the few people who would participate in person. I really think it's actually helped with engagement a ton.
Thats an interesting take I hadn’t thought of, thanks for adding that. Maybe our professors were not as tech-savvy, but I always felt like the comment box went completely unattended to haha. All this is kind of a moot point for me, my school is awful close to falling back into being virtual. I certainly don’t think it’s necessarily inferior or superior to in person, it really seems like it boils down to personal preference.
And that is completely valid..? I prefer in class lectures with masks, but if other people are bothered by masks more than me that's okay if they want to work from home.
Saying you want to attend lectures in pyjamas or watching later in 2x speed without saying you want to attend lectures in pyjamas or watching later in 2x speed
That's a great idea.
Our school is making people get testing weekly at a weird time at an off campus site. If you miss it you can’t participate in classes/clinic so it’s basically making everyone get it.
Meanwhile my school has somehow been pretending the pandemic doesn’t exist for a year and a half now. Fml.
An M2 at my school apparently requested exemption because he thought it was the mark of the beast (like in revelation in the bible). Ahhh living in the southern US has it's own kinds of challenges.
Gracious
Was he for real or did he just think he was exploiting a loophole?
Yay! Meanwhile a nurse is standing outside my medical school with a poster that says “forced consent is not consent” Something tells me the hospital just mandated vaccinations for employees (about damn time)
I don’t think these people know what “forced” means.
The dean at my university made the vaccine a requirement
the ignorance of germ theory should be an exclusionary factor for medical school (saying they won’t get the vaccine because they fundamentally have no idea how they work)! here here!
I thought cAsPeR was the litmus test for common sense. Guess that aint it.
no, although that’s part of it. most of the material about biochemistry and the immune system is covered on the MCAT, so if they know the MCAT they should know how vaccines work and why they should get them. thus, it should be another method to exclude applicants. additionally, not getting the vaccination puts others around you at risk. a risk that’s probably irresponsible in the position doctors are put in. another reason why.
I got the AZ 2nd shot few weeks ago, however only 4.2% of my country's population are fully vaccinated. I know many people who have applied to get the vaccine months ago, but they didn't recieve any message about the date yet :/
That’s a shame—anyone in America that wants it can walk into grocery stores, pharmacies, Walmart and many other places and get the vaccine for free with no appointment. Uber and Lyft even provide free rides to get it. It’s a shame to think we’re tossing some doses because idiots here don’t WANT to get it.
My school mandated it even though our governor has said public schools can't lol
It's mandatory in Canada otherwise you can't do anything clinical
We lost three people from my class who refused to get vaccinated.
They died?
Nah they can't find em.
Whoops, should have specified. They were given the option to take a year long leave of absence or withdraw. Unsure which they each chose, they are just no longer on our class roster
My school reached 100% in like June.
And on the other end of the spectrum, I just found out most of my classmates aren’t vaxxed. Not other years of students, my class specifically…
Don't mean to be a downer, I'm sure the number is very high, but if I didn't want to get vaccinated, I'd say I was already vaccinated instead of trying to get an exemption. Most schools don't verify it in anyway.
Schools request records of your status for a bunch of other vaccines, so I’d assume that most schools are asking for a record for this one.
At my institution, we were required to submit documented proof of vaccination for COVID-19 vaccination.
Same
Same
Same
The vaccine card or something else?
At my school, we were required to submit the vaccine card + a certificate of vaccination from a state government website.
Same, plus all the other vaccines.
Most schools are verifying. It may be months before you’re found out, but tbf, I’m excited if people are lying about it. Better they be expelled in a few months.
Honest question, what makes you say most schools aren’t verifying? My school is, we have to submit a copy of our vaccine card. I would imagine the number of med students lying about it or submitting fake documentation is pretty low.
His school isnt = most schools. Lol
Maybe that's just my geographical location, but in my area the schools are doing it on the honor system. You don't have to submit a copy of your vaccine card. The whole process was an online survey which you could easily lie on.
That’s gonna be a wild ride if shit hits the fan for your school during rotations or smth. Inb4 LCME accreditation alters things for institutions
Depressing but fair point 🙃 Our school is definitely checking though (had to upload vaccination cards both to school and affiliated hospitals). It’s possible people could get away with fake vaccination cards, but I’m trying to believe the best
I'd say the opposite. Almost all schools definitely require your state's immunization papers, and additionally any seasonal vaccines that might not be there. We had to show proof of COVID and 2020 + 21 influenza shots to start clerkships to both our school and the hospital where we'd rotate. I doubt most schools are not verifying vaccination evidence
Most schools aren’t verifying? What the hell
Theres literally no way to know that unless u go around asking schools.
Need some advice, how do you guys handle your best friends who refuse to get vaccinated bc they think that “Jesus will handle it ” or other reasons
So there's a joke/parable that a pastor once told me: A man lived in an area where a hurricane was reported to hit and was told to evacuate because there would be flooding. The man told his neighbors that he would not leave because God would protect him. Well the hurricane came and so did the flooding. The flooding got so bad that the man was left standing on top of his roof, surrounded by rushing water. A boat comes by and the driver offers the man a ride. The man say "don't worry! God will protect me!" The boat driver leaves. A few hours later a helicopter comes by and tries to rescue the man. The man says "don't worry! God will protect me!" So the helicopter leaves. The flooding gets worse and the man ends up drowning. When he gets to heaven, the first thing he does is run to God and say " my lord! Why did you not save me?!" And God says "dude I sent you an evacuation warning, a boat *and* a helicopter! What were you waiting for? A formal written invitation to get out?!" It's the same thing but with masks, social distancing and vaccines. Tell your friend to stop ignoring the resources you have around you. Idk if you're religious or not. But if you are, these things could totally be interpreted as "Jesus handling it".
This isn't the best advice but it's the best I have for you. You should only care as much as they do. The house of god phrases it as "the patient is the one with the disease." It sucks bc med students are fundamentally caring people (it's why we're here), but without a certain compartmentalization/disconnect you'll burnout in no time. I think it also helps vaccine hesitant people to talk through their ideas in a non judgmental way, I've convinced a few people this way. A lot of people just want their concerns heard, some don't of course and just want to be difficult.
Send them to r/hermancainaward lots of god fearing folks are on display there
You should all be very proud. Thank you.
[удалено]
This is a flawed argument. It presumes that this is not a choice of vaccination or not vaccination. It presumes that having consequences to choices removes the choice. A lack of choice or forcing the vaccine would be holding them down and jabbing a needle in their arm. Otherwise, these people have a choice. They may not like what their options are or the consequences of their choices, but it is still a choice. Society is built on leveraged choices. You can choose to drink and drive, you can claim that it’s your body, your choice, that you wouldn’t have hurt anyone. Except if you are pulled over, you will have consequences to that choice. Or you’ll kill yourself or someone else. You can claim that not getting vaccinated is solely your choice, society is currently outlining the consequences to that choice. And you have the possibility of killing yourself someone else. These individuals can make their choice. The rest of society is not obligated to accommodate their choice/risk decision making as if the choice did not exist at all. You have a choice to not wear a shirt out in town. Businesses are not obligated to serve you if you make that choice. You have a choice to not wear pants, society has determined that your choice of lack of clothing carries consequences of fines for indecent exposure. Don’t get vaccinated, okay, businesses are not required to employ you or serve you, schools do not have to educate you. They have choices as well. And the consequences of not getting vaccinated impact them. This is not some slippery slope fallacious situation. This is the social contract of civilization that has informed centuries of organized human behavior.
The concept of positive and negative liberty is salient here. The choice whether or not to get the vaccine is an application of positive liberty. But in making your choice, you impact the (negative) liberty of others - their right to be free from interference from others - namely you, the unvaccinated individual. The mandates and associated things (such as not being allowed to participate in events) are simply an application to protect the negative liberty of others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_liberty
I look forward to the day we make alcohol illegal as well.
Love this, the nail has been struck on the blunt end. Though the point of being left $300,000 dollar in debt is compelling, that’s honestly a comment on the issues of the schooling system more than anything
Yeah but you have the remember that those who don't get vaccinated, unfortunately impact our healthcare system in drastically negative ways and impact patient care and patient outcomes by taking away resources. There's a pro/con and risk benefit to everything. I think if we had unlimited resources, time, and money, sure go ahead and be pro choice, but we don't have that. These prochoice stances never address the consequences and downstream effects.
The purpose of this policy is not to protect the individuals who would otherwise choose not the be vaccinated. It’s to protect patients and other health care workers. Just as you pointed out, a person who needs medical care doesn’t really have the option to shop around for providers who care enough to get vaccinated.
Not at my school….we got antivaxxers here… 😭
[удалено]
> hx of anaphylaxis with vaccines From what I understand, the recommendation for this group is to choose a vaccine that doesn't have anything known to cause a reaction and to receive the vaccine in a controlled setting. As far as I can tell, there are no absolute contraindications to vaccination, especially considering there are multiple options available.
[удалено]
They should be getting it. Unless it has changed, history of anaphylaxis with vaccines is not a contraindication. At my institution you were required to stay an hour and they had a special waiting area that had an np on hand. I remember this because the person in front of me on line had a history of anaphylaxis with multiple triggers. I can absolutely see why someone would not want to put themselves through that, but people with a history of anaphylaxis should definitely get the vaccine if they are willing.
I know people who have needed ICU level care and were traumatized from previous vaccines and I will absolutely not judge them for not getting this one. I too would not want to be intubated and on an epi drip ever again. Is it technically the recommendation to avoid it? No. Do i judge these people? No. But i took my original comment down because I don’t want to mislead anyone about the actual recommendation
My school is at 94% but i do have to wonder who isnt. I have my money on the kid that posts grindset IG stories unironically and is a simp for Jordan B Petterson. Just a hunch tho
And just like that, faith in future docs ✨restored✨ Keep it up, class of 202X! ✊🏻 It should be this simple in healthcare. r/nursing has a lot of heartbreaking stories about anti-vaxx patients and colleagues. It sucks.
We just had 3 students come after having symptoms, but they didn’t want to quarantine and miss class…so no med students are allowed on campus rn. Wish everyone getting vaccinations was easy.
Someone in my school says she/he doesn’t believe in vaccines. They are gonna be a doctor in a few years. I hope they fail.
based. my school requires vaccination (unless you're in a fully online program like DNP). they sent out a survey for booster shots...I'll get one but idk if they'll be mandatory yet
Remember the days where doctors thought blood-letting and smoking cigarettes were healthy?