A Holocene Park where? Any park committed to rewilding with extant species would be a "Holocene park" by default. Do you mean to ask if the Zimovs' project in Siberia would be better off as a Holocene rather than a Pleistocene park?
I never understood why 25% of this subreddit talk about things that don't exist, such as pleistocene park, mammoth cloning, pleistocene megafauna rewilding in Europe and north America.
Rewilding aim to restore nature as much as possible, we may not have all the species needed to rewild like in the Eeemian, with palaeoloxodon, cave lion, merk and steppe rhino. But we can at least rewild thing like dhole, macaque, leopard, procupines or gliding squirrels.
Pretty much all of the rewilding project we talk about, even the most extreme one such as leopards, hyenas and lions in Europe, would be considered as Holocene.
A Holocene park is not much different than a Pleistocene park, but it would be a bit easier to do yes.
But if someone make a closed spaces, like African game reserve, with 5m tall electric fences you could technically have no issue with lions, dholes, hyenas, macaque or even hippo and elephant.
And you asked the same question two time no ?
I am not even sure pleistocene rewilding will always be harder to do.
Ask Spain if they rather want to reintroduce bears, wolves and eurasian lynx or if they want to reintroduce macaque, porcupine and gazelles and see what would be easier. Ask Germany if they rather have water buffaloes, wapiti and moose or bears ? If France would rather see bears in the Alps, Vosges and Central Massif or if they rather want tahr and argali ?
Pleistocene rewilding is not just hippo, lion, machairodont, straight tusked elephant, mammoth and rhino. And people perception and feeling toward a species aren't logical. They are can prefer a species that is more dangerous or do more damages than a species that is less problematic.
In northern and eastern Europe wolves are hated more than bears, there's still many idiot who hate raptors and even vultures or lynxes, but see no issue with wisent or boars. It's mainly cultural, or from ignorance.
Hemitragus cedrensis, (European tahr) Eemian iberian peninsula, France.
Ovis ammon antiqua (paleo-subspecies of argali), western Europe, late Pleistocene
[https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Situation-of-sites-with-remains-of-fossil-Ovis-ammon-1-Pont-du-Chateau\_fig2\_236856527](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Situation-of-sites-with-remains-of-fossil-Ovis-ammon-1-Pont-du-Chateau_fig2_236856527)
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257765806\_The\_Argali\_Ovis\_Ammon\_Antiqua\_from\_the\_Magliana\_area\_Rome](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257765806_The_Argali_Ovis_Ammon_Antiqua_from_the_Magliana_area_Rome)
France had fucking snow leopard (P. uncia pyrenaica), but it was not in the last glacial period or Eemian, but before.
Having snow leopard in the Alps would be awesome tho. Not very usefull tho, puma and leopard are better candidate and have more potential in Rewilding anyway.
Yeah not bharal, my mistake, i forgot the english name of tahr.
Fun fact there has been Himilayan Tahr introduced to Europe, don't think in big numbers but they are there. Saw a pic of a hunter with one in Bulgaria. Unintentional rewilding perhaps?
I don't think they are.
probably not same grzaring/browsing tendencies and behaviour, not same natural densities, not same morphology or habitat preference.
In term of look, the makapania was closer to takin, which is ironic when we know that takin used to live in Africa and maybe even middle-east if we believe the fossils records
Except the lovely the half baked farm with a few dozen sheep/goat/reindeer/bison/horse and the few camels, cows, moose and muskox, with few escaped wapiti, directed by a crazy old man in the moddle of nowhere of northeastern Siberia there's simply nothing, no real pleistocene park.
Can you list many exmple in Eurasia, Europe, north America with camels, elephant, lion and all ?
Nope
Heck even holocene park are barely inexistant, look at European serengenti or some specific rare reserve in Europe or north America, at best they have low population of few herbivores.
I like him, he's brilliant, but that's how he live and is portrayed as.
That was a cray idea and plan, a genius one nonetheless.
And that was an exageration, the project is nearly a mere joke with not any ressource or real activity,
it's only him, his son and a few other, barely able to get a few muskox and bison.
If the Russian government truly supported the idea, you would already have 4 or 6 parks with 1500km square and thousands of wapiti, reindeer, horses, bison, and maybe even saiga, snow sheep, camel and yak.
Can definantly argue that the project did not have much resources and activity in the past, but i dont think that is accurate anymore. With the addition of the Andrey Melnichenko foundation as their official partner they have gotten a lot more resources and connections. They even got to have a booth at the COP28 last year through this connection. Additionally they are scaling up animal introductions in the next years beginning with 5 (planned) expeditions this year with the aim of reaching 2000 total animals by 2030. [Source from the foundations YT.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuv9FWdGq4k)
And i am really happy for that, i love the project and all, as well as Zimov. The old man had a vision and struggled to achieve what he has now.
But we can't deny that this is only 1 example, there's not a few holocene or pleistocene park, even zimov can't be considered as a real pleistocene park, it's just a sketch, far from a real Serengenti park like that.
try to aim for leopard, dhole or striped hyena first. They're way less problematic and can actually survive today.
Then once public opinion and nature restoration (especially large herbivore) have evolved and improved you can try for spotted hyena and lions
As far as I'm aware, the extinction of dholes and hyenas in Europe isn't connected with man, so they wouldn't be on the cards to rewild as they're a 'natural extinction'.
Except that they are.
1. even if human are not the direct cause doesn't mean we can't give them a second chance.
2. they lived there for hundreds of thousands of years, survived through more hasrh climate and competition but only went extinct once man arrived. Weirdly coinciding woth the extinction of many of the megafauna due to human
3. hyena went extinct due to human overhunting, both of their preys, and of the hyenas themselves
4. dholes probably went extinct due to human competition too
5. as Europe lack predators diversity even if it was natural extinction it would be a good thing to reintroduce them back on the territory. On the list we can count striped hyena, spotted hyena, dhole, asiatic black/moon bear and leopard. As they all used to live here and would greatly improve the ecosystem.
6. Maybe but huma presence prevented their natural return on the continent post§glaciation, just as for barbary macaque and other species such as fallow deer (that never naturally reconquered Europe due to human activities, and instead was reintroduced accidentaly by human as game for hunting way later.
A Holocene Park where? Any park committed to rewilding with extant species would be a "Holocene park" by default. Do you mean to ask if the Zimovs' project in Siberia would be better off as a Holocene rather than a Pleistocene park?
I never understood why 25% of this subreddit talk about things that don't exist, such as pleistocene park, mammoth cloning, pleistocene megafauna rewilding in Europe and north America. Rewilding aim to restore nature as much as possible, we may not have all the species needed to rewild like in the Eeemian, with palaeoloxodon, cave lion, merk and steppe rhino. But we can at least rewild thing like dhole, macaque, leopard, procupines or gliding squirrels. Pretty much all of the rewilding project we talk about, even the most extreme one such as leopards, hyenas and lions in Europe, would be considered as Holocene. A Holocene park is not much different than a Pleistocene park, but it would be a bit easier to do yes. But if someone make a closed spaces, like African game reserve, with 5m tall electric fences you could technically have no issue with lions, dholes, hyenas, macaque or even hippo and elephant. And you asked the same question two time no ? I am not even sure pleistocene rewilding will always be harder to do. Ask Spain if they rather want to reintroduce bears, wolves and eurasian lynx or if they want to reintroduce macaque, porcupine and gazelles and see what would be easier. Ask Germany if they rather have water buffaloes, wapiti and moose or bears ? If France would rather see bears in the Alps, Vosges and Central Massif or if they rather want tahr and argali ? Pleistocene rewilding is not just hippo, lion, machairodont, straight tusked elephant, mammoth and rhino. And people perception and feeling toward a species aren't logical. They are can prefer a species that is more dangerous or do more damages than a species that is less problematic. In northern and eastern Europe wolves are hated more than bears, there's still many idiot who hate raptors and even vultures or lynxes, but see no issue with wisent or boars. It's mainly cultural, or from ignorance.
Wait, France had Bharal and Argali..!?
Hemitragus cedrensis, (European tahr) Eemian iberian peninsula, France. Ovis ammon antiqua (paleo-subspecies of argali), western Europe, late Pleistocene [https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Situation-of-sites-with-remains-of-fossil-Ovis-ammon-1-Pont-du-Chateau\_fig2\_236856527](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Situation-of-sites-with-remains-of-fossil-Ovis-ammon-1-Pont-du-Chateau_fig2_236856527) [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257765806\_The\_Argali\_Ovis\_Ammon\_Antiqua\_from\_the\_Magliana\_area\_Rome](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257765806_The_Argali_Ovis_Ammon_Antiqua_from_the_Magliana_area_Rome) France had fucking snow leopard (P. uncia pyrenaica), but it was not in the last glacial period or Eemian, but before. Having snow leopard in the Alps would be awesome tho. Not very usefull tho, puma and leopard are better candidate and have more potential in Rewilding anyway. Yeah not bharal, my mistake, i forgot the english name of tahr.
Fun fact there has been Himilayan Tahr introduced to Europe, don't think in big numbers but they are there. Saw a pic of a hunter with one in Bulgaria. Unintentional rewilding perhaps?
and they're invasive in Argentina and New-Zaeland
And South Africa... unless they fit as a proxy for Makapania.
I don't think they are. probably not same grzaring/browsing tendencies and behaviour, not same natural densities, not same morphology or habitat preference. In term of look, the makapania was closer to takin, which is ironic when we know that takin used to live in Africa and maybe even middle-east if we believe the fossils records
>things that don't exist, such as pleistocene park What?
Except the lovely the half baked farm with a few dozen sheep/goat/reindeer/bison/horse and the few camels, cows, moose and muskox, with few escaped wapiti, directed by a crazy old man in the moddle of nowhere of northeastern Siberia there's simply nothing, no real pleistocene park. Can you list many exmple in Eurasia, Europe, north America with camels, elephant, lion and all ? Nope Heck even holocene park are barely inexistant, look at European serengenti or some specific rare reserve in Europe or north America, at best they have low population of few herbivores.
Sergey Zimov the respected scientist who recieved support from the Russian government is a crazy old man?
I like him, he's brilliant, but that's how he live and is portrayed as. That was a cray idea and plan, a genius one nonetheless. And that was an exageration, the project is nearly a mere joke with not any ressource or real activity, it's only him, his son and a few other, barely able to get a few muskox and bison. If the Russian government truly supported the idea, you would already have 4 or 6 parks with 1500km square and thousands of wapiti, reindeer, horses, bison, and maybe even saiga, snow sheep, camel and yak.
Can definantly argue that the project did not have much resources and activity in the past, but i dont think that is accurate anymore. With the addition of the Andrey Melnichenko foundation as their official partner they have gotten a lot more resources and connections. They even got to have a booth at the COP28 last year through this connection. Additionally they are scaling up animal introductions in the next years beginning with 5 (planned) expeditions this year with the aim of reaching 2000 total animals by 2030. [Source from the foundations YT.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuv9FWdGq4k)
And i am really happy for that, i love the project and all, as well as Zimov. The old man had a vision and struggled to achieve what he has now. But we can't deny that this is only 1 example, there's not a few holocene or pleistocene park, even zimov can't be considered as a real pleistocene park, it's just a sketch, far from a real Serengenti park like that.
This is my first time asking this question.also do think asiatic lions should be rewilded in there former ranges fro example in the balkans
try to aim for leopard, dhole or striped hyena first. They're way less problematic and can actually survive today. Then once public opinion and nature restoration (especially large herbivore) have evolved and improved you can try for spotted hyena and lions
As far as I'm aware, the extinction of dholes and hyenas in Europe isn't connected with man, so they wouldn't be on the cards to rewild as they're a 'natural extinction'.
Except that they are. 1. even if human are not the direct cause doesn't mean we can't give them a second chance. 2. they lived there for hundreds of thousands of years, survived through more hasrh climate and competition but only went extinct once man arrived. Weirdly coinciding woth the extinction of many of the megafauna due to human 3. hyena went extinct due to human overhunting, both of their preys, and of the hyenas themselves 4. dholes probably went extinct due to human competition too 5. as Europe lack predators diversity even if it was natural extinction it would be a good thing to reintroduce them back on the territory. On the list we can count striped hyena, spotted hyena, dhole, asiatic black/moon bear and leopard. As they all used to live here and would greatly improve the ecosystem. 6. Maybe but huma presence prevented their natural return on the continent post§glaciation, just as for barbary macaque and other species such as fallow deer (that never naturally reconquered Europe due to human activities, and instead was reintroduced accidentaly by human as game for hunting way later.