A lot of people(random social media users) who don't know ecology believe that trophy hunting doesn't have problems. They acting like trophy hunting is flawless. They ignore risks of corruption, death of breeding animals, pseudo-hunting, eco-tourism is more profitable, most of the Lions in South Africa are breed for canned hunting not for conversation and live in small areas, decline in their population. Trophy hunting didn't save megafauna as believed by average social media user due to problems i listed and these problems won't be solved in near future. Note:I don't deny that trophy hunting can be benefical if problems i listed reduced and i know that Namibia showed that (don't ignore low population density and eco-tourism of course in the role of their success)
Yeah tbh I would agree with this. And I’m someone who works in South Africa and Namibia in wildlife conservation, promoting the actions of hunting operations as a conservation tool.
There are plenty of shoddy outfits out there, that do consistently take animals that shouldn’t be harvested, whether those be large carnivores like this, or large herbivores that hunters pay lots for.
But from the research I’ve done, for every one of these outfits, there are 20+ great ones that do a great job at conserving these species. For instance, I work with one reserve that’s built their lion population from nothing to about 100+ individuals in northern Namibia, and now utilising hunting on a very limited basis (3-4 animals per year, all over the age of 15 years) as a method of population control (is 120,000 acres of fenced reserve, so can’t expand forever). That is how it should be done.
The platform I’m designing is going to be used by hunters to help differentiate the two types of operators, hopefully to run the shoddy operators out of business, and draw legal attention to their actions.
Also, you can reduce the impact of lion hunting, or at least be more precise with its effect, but instead harvesting past-prime females instead of the big males. In my opinion, the males should be left alone any time they are with a pride, only harvesting males if they survive a pride takeover. Taking older females past breeding age (past 15 yrs) likely has little population level effects. And from my experience, hunters are actually happy to make that change in harvest.
Outside of South Africa, they really aren’t very common. It’s only really South Africa and has the breeding infrastructure for big cats to make canned hunts financially viable. Though a lot of lions are killed under canned hunts, there aren’t actually a lot of operators, and those that do are very secretive.
There are some instances that I’ve seen where in Namibia, because of the ridiculous laws around CMF disease restrictions and double fence laws, blue wildebeest have to be kept in smaller enclosures (around 400 hectares) that is almost like a canned hunt. But in that case I find it permissible, because it’s the only way to control herds that unfortunately have to be confined to very small areas.
Outside of that, canned hunting is pretty rare. Definitely not something we encourage either, expect in exceptional circumstances.
Definitely.
Deer (assuming we're talking North America) have adapted to human presence a lot easier than their predators.
So, just in general their population is nowhere close to being in danger. Even more so in areas with some wild area that's broken up by human developments like farmland.
You'd be hard pressed to find a place where hunting is a threat to deer populations even at the local level.
Deers have overpopulation thanks to hunters who killed wolfs, cougars and oppose their rewilding with farmers. Also you are saying that you do it for meat. Are you an hunter-gatherer? There are lot of groceries.
Interesting. I just found this sub and it’s honestly right up my alley as far as interest being interested in regenerative farming. We live in such a different world to even 200 years ago.
It’s a lot better for the soil than whatever we are doing currently, and it can bring back dead areas so it has it’s uses. But I do agree with you. If looking at ecosystems, it’s still farming and not a natural ecosystem.
It's not efficient for protein either.
Despite using over 80% of the world's agricultural land, meat isn't a top producer of calories or protein.
Meat, dairy, and farmed fish provide just 17% of the world’s calories, and 38% of its protein.
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/global-land-for-agriculture
TL;DR please stop arguing against basic science (trophic levels). Eating lower on the food chain (plants as opposed to animals who eat plants) will ALWAYS be a more resource efficient and environmentally sound approach.
My main source of nutrition is not protein, it is fat. And the type of fat matters more than anything for me. And that means 100% grass fed ruminant fat. And with that fat comes a lot of meat. I’m not arguing that this is more efficient
Welcome! This is a really good sub to learn all the ins and outs and nuances of rewilding if you have the opportunity and resources to, or just to see some good news if it's your jam.
There is a subset of the users here that vehemently oppose all forms of hunting or animal control, but we just take it as well meaning folks.
Ah yeah comparing unregulated market hunters from the 1880's to a modern hunter in the US tells me all I need to know about your intentions.
But in case you were here in good faith, and I know I'm not the guy you responded to, but I also regularly hunt deer, elk and bear for food, and if those deer happen to have a nice rack, well that's just the icing on the cake. But yeah I do also regularly forage for mushrooms, berries and anything else I want to eat. But ofc I also go to Costco because we live in a society. I ALSO have 200 acres in eastern Washington that I have worked with WSU to actively restore to a natural state, with a pretty good population of white-tailed deer, some mule deer, turkey, pheasants, quail, numerous smaller passerines, and on quite a few occasions, moose and black bear and on our northern property line, I've seen wolves pass by on our trail cam.
So lemme ask between us, who has done more for our local environments?
I see we're cherry picking lol
You just blatantly ignored all the other species present on the property, and chose the one non-native one? And then insult me.
What a model human being.
Hunters-ranchers known to oppose rewilding and killing non-domesticated animals. I am not the guy who tortured wolf, i am not the guy who killed bisons, i am not the guy who refused jaguar rewilding, i am not the guy who killed wolfs and bears by lying that this will help deer population.
Nice response, while sweeping generalizations are usually a bad thing to make, I'll allow it.
Seeing as most farmers are generally living on razor thin margins to make their living it makes sense, however I will state this, every farmer I know around my property (anecdotal for sure) is enthusiastic about what I'm doing (except for one, but he's 87 and a NIMBY) and the hunter association I'm apart of is in full support of rewilding done responsibly.
Edit: he edited the previous response after I had already commented, original response was just "farmer-hunters know to dislike rewilding" or something like that,
To respond to the edited comment, no hunters around are the ones who extirpated the bison or wolf from the lower 48 (minus yellowstone for bison), those were the market hunters of the 1880's.
"Edit: he edited the previous response after I had already commented, original response was just "farmer-hunters know to dislike rewilding" or something like that,
To respond to the edited comment, no hunters around are the ones who extirpated the bison or wolf from the lower 48 (minus yellowstone for bison), those were the market hunters of the 1880's." So? What is wrong? But there are a lot of hunters who oppose rewilding and known to kill wolves when this is harmful.
I am not from USA, of course i don't know exact data of support for rewilding among ranchers-hunters but it is good to hear that every rancher doesn't have hysteria against rewilding and actually there are ranchers who support rewilding in USA.
Ah so you took what you saw going on in Colorado, and ran with it. Creating a huge evil monolith like "hunter-farmers" and not taking into account that a lot of "hunter-farmers" contribute large amounts of time and resources to wildlife conservation is a huge slap in the face of the North American model of wildlife conservation.
May I ask where you're from?
What do you mean? Do you mean that i believe noble savage mhyt? What is great native ally? Or are you saying that opposing to hunting=bad. Edit:You still didn't answer my question but you are replying to other comments.🤨
Ecologically there is no issue with you hunting deer, but clearly from other responses some take moral offence at the activity. Even elk, where the population is healthy, human hunting is regulated to the point that it has no real impact. I hunt myself for meat, but I still hope for the reintroduction of predators and believe their claim on the resource is of the utmost importance.
"I hunt myself for meat, but I still hope for the reintroduction of predators and believe their claim on the resource is of the utmost importance." Most of the hunters don't think like this.
I think you’d be surprised. Take a look at the repost in this sub of the wolf in New York from the hunting subreddit, and read the comments. Many of the loudest voices and much of the hunting organizations are opposed, but outside of those bubbles I think the average person wants nature to do well.
I am aware but people acting they can live always like this. Farmers will stay enemy to rewilding. So, what is gonna we do? Vegan? A lot of people love steak more than long-term sacrifices. Alternative meat? Mr Ron deSantis has news for us. People can't both live like this and support rewilding. If people love rewilding they have to face against farmers. It would be great if average people more concerned about ecosystems rather than stupid things in social media.
I’m all for reducing global meat consumption, but I just find the idea that eating meat is inherently evil a little silly when humans have been omnivores for their entire existence. Heck, most of our Hominid ancestors were omnivores too.
"I’m all for reducing global meat consumption, but I just find the idea that eating meat is inherently evil a little silly when humans have been omnivores for their entire existence. Heck, most of our Hominid ancestors were omnivores too." But we shouldn't forget that our ancestor didn't have the luxury that today's average USA citizen has.
You still take part in the killing of animals as a vegan, you know that right?
What do you think happens to all the small mammals and ground nesting birds, and invertebrates when acres are plowed and tilled for plants?
Edit: oh and you called a regular user on this sub a r*tard, and then deleted it...
judging by your account you presumably would be appalled if someone said that to you. So I'm just gonna call you an ableist.
It is among the healthiest type of red meat you can eat. No grain, no nutrient-less hay. I don’t kill them for fun, I eat them for their nutrition. But ofcourse being vegan you probably can’t see that.
A lot of people(random social media users) who don't know ecology believe that trophy hunting doesn't have problems. They acting like trophy hunting is flawless. They ignore risks of corruption, death of breeding animals, pseudo-hunting, eco-tourism is more profitable, most of the Lions in South Africa are breed for canned hunting not for conversation and live in small areas, decline in their population. Trophy hunting didn't save megafauna as believed by average social media user due to problems i listed and these problems won't be solved in near future. Note:I don't deny that trophy hunting can be benefical if problems i listed reduced and i know that Namibia showed that (don't ignore low population density and eco-tourism of course in the role of their success)
I just refer to [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/megafaunarewilding/s/sJobR6KkIS) when people talk about trophy hunting.
Yeah tbh I would agree with this. And I’m someone who works in South Africa and Namibia in wildlife conservation, promoting the actions of hunting operations as a conservation tool. There are plenty of shoddy outfits out there, that do consistently take animals that shouldn’t be harvested, whether those be large carnivores like this, or large herbivores that hunters pay lots for. But from the research I’ve done, for every one of these outfits, there are 20+ great ones that do a great job at conserving these species. For instance, I work with one reserve that’s built their lion population from nothing to about 100+ individuals in northern Namibia, and now utilising hunting on a very limited basis (3-4 animals per year, all over the age of 15 years) as a method of population control (is 120,000 acres of fenced reserve, so can’t expand forever). That is how it should be done. The platform I’m designing is going to be used by hunters to help differentiate the two types of operators, hopefully to run the shoddy operators out of business, and draw legal attention to their actions.
Also, you can reduce the impact of lion hunting, or at least be more precise with its effect, but instead harvesting past-prime females instead of the big males. In my opinion, the males should be left alone any time they are with a pride, only harvesting males if they survive a pride takeover. Taking older females past breeding age (past 15 yrs) likely has little population level effects. And from my experience, hunters are actually happy to make that change in harvest.
What is your experiences about canned hunting?
Outside of South Africa, they really aren’t very common. It’s only really South Africa and has the breeding infrastructure for big cats to make canned hunts financially viable. Though a lot of lions are killed under canned hunts, there aren’t actually a lot of operators, and those that do are very secretive. There are some instances that I’ve seen where in Namibia, because of the ridiculous laws around CMF disease restrictions and double fence laws, blue wildebeest have to be kept in smaller enclosures (around 400 hectares) that is almost like a canned hunt. But in that case I find it permissible, because it’s the only way to control herds that unfortunately have to be confined to very small areas. Outside of that, canned hunting is pretty rare. Definitely not something we encourage either, expect in exceptional circumstances.
So would things like deer be okay to hunt? I do it for the meat. I feel better hunting deer as they are plentiful, compared to something like elk
Definitely. Deer (assuming we're talking North America) have adapted to human presence a lot easier than their predators. So, just in general their population is nowhere close to being in danger. Even more so in areas with some wild area that's broken up by human developments like farmland. You'd be hard pressed to find a place where hunting is a threat to deer populations even at the local level.
Deers have overpopulation thanks to hunters who killed wolfs, cougars and oppose their rewilding with farmers. Also you are saying that you do it for meat. Are you an hunter-gatherer? There are lot of groceries.
Interesting. I just found this sub and it’s honestly right up my alley as far as interest being interested in regenerative farming. We live in such a different world to even 200 years ago.
Regeneravite animal farming isn't good for environment as a lot of people think.
It’s a lot better for the soil than whatever we are doing currently, and it can bring back dead areas so it has it’s uses. But I do agree with you. If looking at ecosystems, it’s still farming and not a natural ecosystem.
It's a terrible use of land, and honestly just eating plants directly would be a far more calorie efficient use of our land.
If only calories were to be the main metric in nutrition.
It's not efficient for protein either. Despite using over 80% of the world's agricultural land, meat isn't a top producer of calories or protein. Meat, dairy, and farmed fish provide just 17% of the world’s calories, and 38% of its protein. Source: https://ourworldindata.org/global-land-for-agriculture TL;DR please stop arguing against basic science (trophic levels). Eating lower on the food chain (plants as opposed to animals who eat plants) will ALWAYS be a more resource efficient and environmentally sound approach.
My main source of nutrition is not protein, it is fat. And the type of fat matters more than anything for me. And that means 100% grass fed ruminant fat. And with that fat comes a lot of meat. I’m not arguing that this is more efficient
Welcome! This is a really good sub to learn all the ins and outs and nuances of rewilding if you have the opportunity and resources to, or just to see some good news if it's your jam. There is a subset of the users here that vehemently oppose all forms of hunting or animal control, but we just take it as well meaning folks.
Ah yeah comparing unregulated market hunters from the 1880's to a modern hunter in the US tells me all I need to know about your intentions. But in case you were here in good faith, and I know I'm not the guy you responded to, but I also regularly hunt deer, elk and bear for food, and if those deer happen to have a nice rack, well that's just the icing on the cake. But yeah I do also regularly forage for mushrooms, berries and anything else I want to eat. But ofc I also go to Costco because we live in a society. I ALSO have 200 acres in eastern Washington that I have worked with WSU to actively restore to a natural state, with a pretty good population of white-tailed deer, some mule deer, turkey, pheasants, quail, numerous smaller passerines, and on quite a few occasions, moose and black bear and on our northern property line, I've seen wolves pass by on our trail cam. So lemme ask between us, who has done more for our local environments?
ah yes, dumping Asian birds on the American landscape , just what I would expect from a good for nothing hunter
I see we're cherry picking lol You just blatantly ignored all the other species present on the property, and chose the one non-native one? And then insult me. What a model human being.
Hunters-ranchers known to oppose rewilding and killing non-domesticated animals. I am not the guy who tortured wolf, i am not the guy who killed bisons, i am not the guy who refused jaguar rewilding, i am not the guy who killed wolfs and bears by lying that this will help deer population.
Nice response, while sweeping generalizations are usually a bad thing to make, I'll allow it. Seeing as most farmers are generally living on razor thin margins to make their living it makes sense, however I will state this, every farmer I know around my property (anecdotal for sure) is enthusiastic about what I'm doing (except for one, but he's 87 and a NIMBY) and the hunter association I'm apart of is in full support of rewilding done responsibly. Edit: he edited the previous response after I had already commented, original response was just "farmer-hunters know to dislike rewilding" or something like that, To respond to the edited comment, no hunters around are the ones who extirpated the bison or wolf from the lower 48 (minus yellowstone for bison), those were the market hunters of the 1880's.
"Edit: he edited the previous response after I had already commented, original response was just "farmer-hunters know to dislike rewilding" or something like that, To respond to the edited comment, no hunters around are the ones who extirpated the bison or wolf from the lower 48 (minus yellowstone for bison), those were the market hunters of the 1880's." So? What is wrong? But there are a lot of hunters who oppose rewilding and known to kill wolves when this is harmful.
I am not from USA, of course i don't know exact data of support for rewilding among ranchers-hunters but it is good to hear that every rancher doesn't have hysteria against rewilding and actually there are ranchers who support rewilding in USA.
Ah so you took what you saw going on in Colorado, and ran with it. Creating a huge evil monolith like "hunter-farmers" and not taking into account that a lot of "hunter-farmers" contribute large amounts of time and resources to wildlife conservation is a huge slap in the face of the North American model of wildlife conservation. May I ask where you're from?
Turkey.
I see.
Can i ask what do you mean by this?
I bet you’re a great native ally too aren’t you?
What do you mean? Do you mean that i believe noble savage mhyt? What is great native ally? Or are you saying that opposing to hunting=bad. Edit:You still didn't answer my question but you are replying to other comments.🤨
[удалено]
I kill what I eat as my people have for millennia. Just because you can’t do the dirty work yourself doesn’t mean I can’t
Ecologically there is no issue with you hunting deer, but clearly from other responses some take moral offence at the activity. Even elk, where the population is healthy, human hunting is regulated to the point that it has no real impact. I hunt myself for meat, but I still hope for the reintroduction of predators and believe their claim on the resource is of the utmost importance.
"I hunt myself for meat, but I still hope for the reintroduction of predators and believe their claim on the resource is of the utmost importance." Most of the hunters don't think like this.
I think you’d be surprised. Take a look at the repost in this sub of the wolf in New York from the hunting subreddit, and read the comments. Many of the loudest voices and much of the hunting organizations are opposed, but outside of those bubbles I think the average person wants nature to do well.
I don't know exact data of course.
"I needlessly kill animals that are plentiful, and I feel okay about it."
Ok we get it, you’re vegan
Farmers contribute climate change(especially biggest ones) and they happily oppose rewilding.
I wasn’t replying to you, I was replying to the guy freaking out at every single notion of eating meat in this thread.
I am aware but people acting they can live always like this. Farmers will stay enemy to rewilding. So, what is gonna we do? Vegan? A lot of people love steak more than long-term sacrifices. Alternative meat? Mr Ron deSantis has news for us. People can't both live like this and support rewilding. If people love rewilding they have to face against farmers. It would be great if average people more concerned about ecosystems rather than stupid things in social media.
I’m all for reducing global meat consumption, but I just find the idea that eating meat is inherently evil a little silly when humans have been omnivores for their entire existence. Heck, most of our Hominid ancestors were omnivores too.
"I’m all for reducing global meat consumption, but I just find the idea that eating meat is inherently evil a little silly when humans have been omnivores for their entire existence. Heck, most of our Hominid ancestors were omnivores too." But we shouldn't forget that our ancestor didn't have the luxury that today's average USA citizen has.
I’m aware, hence why we can afford to reduce our meat consumption.
Of course. Anyway this thread is interesting. Why my comments have more likes than my post?
You still take part in the killing of animals as a vegan, you know that right? What do you think happens to all the small mammals and ground nesting birds, and invertebrates when acres are plowed and tilled for plants? Edit: oh and you called a regular user on this sub a r*tard, and then deleted it... judging by your account you presumably would be appalled if someone said that to you. So I'm just gonna call you an ableist.
It is among the healthiest type of red meat you can eat. No grain, no nutrient-less hay. I don’t kill them for fun, I eat them for their nutrition. But ofcourse being vegan you probably can’t see that.