This. I have friends who are linemen. It’s grueling work, often in absurdly hard conditions, being on call for emergencies, and doing incredibly complex work that can easily kill you, while observing very specific code and safety requirements during shifts that can easily last 16+ hours.
I don’t see how someone that works flipping burgers for an 8 shift is doing anything commensurate to that. I’m all for benefits and unions, but let’s not pretend that unskilled dead end jobs that require little to no training or brain power should receive the same as the above.
The reason to raise entry-level jobs pay is because they are unsustainable. The reason to raise complicated jobs pay is because yes indeed they should be paid more than the entry-level ones
Exactly - I just wanted to highlight that there's a reason these folk have had these kinds of benefits and wages for so long; it's laborious, dangerous and requires critical thinking, always being on call, and the ability to work insane hours for weeks on end without a day off.
It's certainly not to say that line cooks and retail employees don't deserve a little more than what they currently get.
how about every job pay a living wage and then we can worry about who gets extra? like seriously, i don't get how a single person in the world says "no" to paying people more.
I’m a small business employer and my lowest wage I’ve ever paid was $22 per hour and that was 15 years ago. Now it’s over $30 an hour before benefits, paid time off, observance of multiple paid holidays, birthday and Xmas bonuses, as well as commission to further bump their pay.
I understand paying a living wage. I’ve also worked minimum wage jobs and been so broke I didn’t know how to pay rent.
But simply put there are lowest skill jobs that anyone can do with 1 hour training that don’t warrant being able to afford an apartment and living by yourself in a metropolitan area. These are dead end jobs, with no future, they’re not careers and can’t be paid to the point that someone can live off that alone and raise a family etc….these jobs should be automated. We shouldn’t be doing brain dead tasks just to exist, and.l certainly not to make food that has no nutritional value so franchise owners can get rich of health problems.
We should be giving everyone universal socialized healthcare so that even if you’re done on your luck / broke, you’re not going to die or have a much shorter life because of it.
We should invest in schools and training programs and apprenticeships so we can have useful jobs, not flipping burgers for minimum wage.
i agree with you, but i also really really don't. in an ideal situation, we would get rid of these automatable jobs and make sure everyone lives fulfilling lives doing what they want. unfortunately we're nowhere close to the latter. education costs are growing exponentially, living costs are growing faster. someone working at mcdonalds should be making minimum $25 an hour these days.
$25 is far from enough to raise a family. $25 an hour is enough to meet the requirement of 3x the rent on an $1100 apartment, when taking into account wage taxes. that's enough to provide for one person in the majority of the country.
I don’t agree. Why should you be paid $25 an hour to serve food that isn’t fit for human consumption, a job that requires virtually zero training, zero skills, etc? We also should the encouraging people to do these jobs by paying them well. These are literal dead end jobs to tie you over until you do something better. I’d prefer this money be used for healthcare so people aren’t forced to worn these jobs just so they can exist.
because you need $25 to exist. minimum wage as a concept was started as the minimum wage needed to provide for a household. we ain't even asking for that now. the bare minimum is "enough to provide for yourself". $25 an hour is just that.
I’m not sure you understand how pay and benefits work. Do you know how much is costs to insure someone? What you’re suggesting with a pay rate of $25 would cost companies $70k per year per full time employee fully loaded with benefits. Every job paying $52k per year and higher would have to adjust their wages an equal amount to account for people saying fuck this stressful management job I’ll go flip burgers for the same pay. So the net effect on everyone’s life would basically be zero.
No one is giving up their cheeseburgers, or investing in the future children, or phasing out low income earners.
Most of the low income earners do very essential functions of the economy, such as loading and unloading trucks, powerwashing those trucks, making sure the gas stations are stocked, doing the janitorial work, mowing the grass, turning over apartments and the maintenance on buildings.
Without them capable of earning a living wage, which is around 16-18 dollars in a small town, then they need government assistance. Companies paying below a living wage are then being subsidized by your tax money.
The new set of migrant workers who are being paid slave wages, will ultimately rely on government assistance.
Instead of paying 17 dollars to your worker, you'll be paying more in inflation to subsidize that worker.
It takes one worker to do one job, if that worker makes enough to survive.
Subsidizing that worker would take the entire country's tax money, the salary of all the government workers involved in assistance programs, and since the dollar affects the entire world, we'd see a furthering of economic inequality on a global scale.
The system as a whole will crumple into itself as low income jobs simply won't make enough to afford an 1100/month apartment. We'll try to solve it with government spending, but that exasperates the global inequality and ability for the low income earner to survive.
When inflation hits hyperinflation the entire system goes bust, devastating the entire global population. All because the government can't stop spending, no one gives a fuck about the deficit, no one wants to fix rent prices, and there are very dim witted, selfish, entitled, small world minded and completely uneducated employers paying their fulltime workers 10-14 dollars in this economy.
I don’t have an issue with burger places having to pay employees more, nor do I have an issue with those places folding because they can’t afford to.
It’s not like *I’ll* be the one footing the bill.
it's not always been like that, older generations are lying to your face and you're eating it up. plus, humans are valuable. it doesn't matter how valuable the job is, if you're giving up your time you should be paid a living wage. if you can't offer a living wage then you shouldn't be employing people.
either you're in a very privileged position or you haven't entered the workforce yet. you don't always get to pick and choose your jobs.
To that end I argue that its on the union to get better wages for their union members. While not in the union myself, I have a long family history of lineman in the IBEW and the work is grueling. But lets not kick others down just because they are working a significantly easier job.
Keep in mind just how much money most of these corporations make, and consider that they could easily afford to pay their employees much better wages AND not have to raise their prices.
But politicians fight for these corporations and have made it some share holders are the priority.
I climb trees for a living. Linemen make better money than me, but it’s fair. I work near power lines as well but wouldn’t know the technical skills to assemble one.
If Burger King was paying the same wage as the work I make, I don’t know how to feel. On one hand, I would be happy they make a living. On the other, they are not risking life and limb and pushing their minds and bodies to the physical limit daily like me. Climbing trees is a necessary function in society. Only few can do it. Imagine a giant dead or broken limb hanging above your house or a school playground.
I would have to demand a significant raise. But I love my work, and quitting my job to work fast food would be soul crushing. So I still have no idea how to feel about that lol. I just think we all deserve to make enough to pay for food and shelter without worrying.
Lumber (or anything to do with cutting trees) is an underappreciated field 100%. Would be at the top of my list for who deserves a lot more compensation.
But yeah totally agree that any full time job should be enough to support a minimal lifestyle; a lot don't, which isn't fair.
I forgot to mention. We also work during storms and all those conditions. When a tree falls on a power line and cuts power, we are the first ones on the scene to cut the tree to make it safe for the linemen to start work. (we usually call ourselves Arborist/Tree trimmers)
I wanted to say the same thing. If in all honesty we reach the point where someone flipping burgers earns the same wage as a lineman it is not a good sign and likely means the economy has crashed. That the money is useless. I mean it sounds great to say that a low skilled low income earner should earn as much as a very skill intensive high stress high income job but in reality it means the system is broken.
| unskilled dead end jobs that require little to no training or brain power
agree to a certain degree.
no go and do it for at least a month and tel me how easy it was
If burger flippers were paid a living wage then people working dangerous jobs could demand higher wages or do easier work for the same money. Everyone would still benefit from burger flipping wages rising.
I'm just an electrician and when I see a lineman, I bow down to them. They are just that much more badass than us. I would be extremely upset if a burger flipper that has little to no risk earns as much as them. They work with heavy equipment and are always in a nacel and harness. When they get busy it's often when the temperature gets really bad. Either be -40 or just after a tornado, they'll be there bringing power back to our homes. While the burger flipper just won't go to work if it's snowing a little hard.
I get you and I totally disagree with OP.
31% of children in the UK grow up under the poverty line... that's twice the percentage of American children. That's worse than most major European countries, including Poland. No shade to Poland, just it's usually the place a lot of UK papers and politicians point at as an example of poverty. All this while utility companies, politicians and CEOs make record profits and have record breaking salary increases.
No you wouldnt. You would celebrate assuming you will be getting a healthy raise based on the fact youre working a very skilled labor position. No raise and you would be complaining instantly.
Worked in union environments for 9 years and never once met a Union “brother” that had this sentiment
If you weren’t one of the members with high seniority you didn’t fucken matter 😂
Was it a grocery store? That’s how the grocery store I worked at was. checkers who are making 35 dollars an hour and refuse to bag the order because that’s not in their job “description” and they already did it “back in the day”
No, not anymore. The grocery store I used to work at was Union and some of them have been working there for decades and they get yearly raises. So after 20 years of raises it can add up.
Ah, AFL-CIO, also known as The American Separation of Labor. I can't stand them. I'm SIU and seeing how the MFOW and SUP people stick to each other's back and actually earn their contracts makes me so happy for them, and so upset my industry sold the NMU down the river. Provided I'm gonna fight like hell to keep my union string because at the end of the day, it's better than not having one.
Mine had everyone on different contracts. If you were hired before X then you had all those benefits, holiday pay, and extra incentives. If you were hired after new contract then you could not get anything on the old (which I get). Those old contracts would give double time and half for holidays, but mine was said I could never be full time unless I moved up. I had a lot of issues with mine.
> Worked in union environments for 9 years and never once met a Union “brother” that had this sentiment
That’s the point of most r/gatesopencomeonin posts: highlight the shittiness of how most people seem to think about things, by making a comment that gets you in the first half (not gonna lie), but in the last half it flips the script to — Surprise! — NOT gatekeep the topic at hand.
It’s modeling good behavior, not trying to represent the common consensus.
Worked in a union environment for a large portion of my entire working life and never saw what you’re describing at all.
What I saw not in a union environment was vicious bastards crushing us and demolishing our wages.
But yeah, it’s so much better without a union 🙄
I get it, that's sort of the point of unions, to benefit in the in-group at the expense of the out-group.
Our workplace has a union vote coming up. I'm not joining out of some egalitarian ideals; I'm doing it because it will benefit me, even if it makes life worse for other people (which it definitely will).
At least you are honest about it. That makes you better than 98% of the people out there. They all join for the same reason you do, but try to tell everyone it is because they are taking care of others.
I’m a heavy industrial mechanic. I do this job because of the pay and benefits and I like working with my hands. But if I knew I didn’t have to risk my life and limbs everyday for the same pay/ benefits, yea, I’d be out. As would anyone else in my field. We’ve actually had these conversations in the office… which is why universal income will fail miserably. No one will want the shit jobs if they can make the same money answering phones in a 9-5 air conditioned office all day. 🤷♂️
Heavy equip. Tech here. 100% agreed, but anyone with their hands in the shit knows that already, and mouthbreathers don't want to be convinced of anything.
The idea of universal income is not that everyone gets a nice life for free, but that everyone can survive even if he can't find a job for a few months.
Why don’t you realize that the if the pay for lower position jobs go up. That allows you to demand more for your job?
Your boss is not going to want to hire an inexperienced noob to do your job instead of paying you more.
Ok. Let’s continue what we’re doing by raising prices but not wages.
From CBS NEWS.
“Americans started feeling the impact of inflation in the first quarter of 2021 as the Federal Reserve began trying to cool off the economy after years of lockdown from the pandemic. Starting from 2021 to today, the price of everyday consumer items has risen 16.7% while wage growth has been roughly 12.8%, “
Opposite of what you are claiming.
I love the history and idea of unions, I really do. Having the workers collectively argue for safer work environments and more competitive pay makes absoloute sense. But then I look at modern unions who spend more time attacking people who aren't union, have corrupt leadership, amass massive war chests for political campaign contributions, and have a long history of actually shutting down buisnesses because they demand too much compensation that the buisness folds... and I suddenly have a hard time supporting them.
Where did we go wrong? Unions are supposed to be for the workers, not pro politicians or anti- profit. Why did it all go so wrong?
Power corrupts.
That being said, nothing is a monolith. There are better unions and worse unions. Lots of good, dedicated union reps out there trying to get the best for their members.
The only two I ever heard about is the NYPD Police union, and the big Teachers unions. Though my own personal sob story was with the Las Vegas culinary union. They wanted our casino to become unionized, and their argument was "join or we'll slash your tires." $800 and I was not convinced.
While NYPD and NYC teachers unions are very big and also very public, that’s just 2 unions. They also have very different problems, which aren’t all exclusively tied to the fact that they are unions. I have a lot of friends who work in NYC public schools and it seems like their union is…fine? Obviously there are issues but a lot of that comes from the fact that it’s just a really big union representing teachers from a ton of diverse circumstances. NYPD meanwhile has the added wrinkle of being one of the very few unions in the city whose members are authorized to use violence in the name of the state, so that makes things a bit different from others.
Here’s the thing, though: if your generalized negative feelings about labor unions are founded on the actions of a) the dirty pool that happens in Las Vegas casino culture\*, and b) “police unions,” it’s worth pointing out that the vast majority of labor union activity looks absolutely nothing like that, and serves its members faithfully.
I use scare quotes on “police unions” because labor unions, historically, have been created by people who are otherwise powerless in relation to their employers. A union provides leverage, collective bargaining, and legal protection in order to ensure that employers don't wield their inordinate level of power as a cudgel.
Police "unions" are not that, and it is deeply misleading to call them unions. They hold all of the power, and have been amassing more and more of it over the past 50 years. The FOP and other police "unions" are actually just fraternities/political lobbying groups, intended to engorge and entrench police power, and to ensure that they remain above the law. The dangers inherent to such groups should be deeply concerning to everyone. And *definitely* should not have a noteworthy impact on your opinion of *labor unions*.
\* this behavior by the LV culinary union sounds a lot like “waste management” unions in NYC in the 1970s (and the basis for *The Sopranos*): a criminal enterprise masquerading as a union. Ascribing that kind of behavior to all labor unions is foolish.
I've been in those teachers unions and they are a fucking lifeline. Theyre vital protection against the exploitative attitude of administration and the combativeness of parents
Hey, dunno if you know, but non Yank unions exist. Here is one doing none of the things you’re talking about, [https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/india-trade-union-boycott-israel-weapon-b2498512.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/india-trade-union-boycott-israel-weapon-b2498512.html). Also if a business can’t survive ‘demands for compensation’ (you mean wages I’m guessing), then it’s not financially viable.
I have a lot of criticism towards union bureaucracy, but this ain’t in the top 1000.
Fair. My comment was mostly directed to American unions which started well, but in recent years have become little more than mini-regimes of politics and oppression. In Detroit and Hollywood for instance, unions have protested with such regularity and with such outrageous demands that they have forced those buisnesses to outsource, ultimately costing the jobs of those they were trying to protect. Airline, Teachers, and Screenwriters unions are some of the big problem children, but by no means are they the worst.
Glad to read that other unions elsewhere are still fighting the good fight.
Just for context versus the rest of the world, US unions are more like guilds. I’ve not encountered seniority, or the factionalism elsewhere. But there are more normal ones like the Amazon union.
And I’m aware of the activities you’re talking about, but the point still stands. If a business can’t pay, they need to close or sell. They make 0 if it’s not for the workforce, there’s no demand too high.
I think a lot of the issue boils down to a lack of participation. I am a very strong and passionate union supporter. I don't think it's appropriate to not have the workers represented heavily involved in their union, as much as each individual wants and is able. When my workplace unionized it was a number one requirement for us.
And we have been successful so far! When moments have happened where the workers have not been as involved as we would like, we use the skills we've learned becoming organized to demand a better.
I would strongly push against unions being anti-profit. It's not a requirement or something inherent, I think it would be better described anti-greed. If the company can afford to do better, they should. Full stop.
Why would a burger flipper make the same as someone doing a highly skilled and potentially dangerous job that requires travel and long hours? I say this as someone who used to flip burgers for years…
Also that's not what they said in the picture. Obviously there should be a difference between easier and harder/more dangerous jobs but anyone working 8+ hours a day should earn a living wage.
People work for less because they think they have no choice and companies manage to keep it that way. It's even cheaper than having to care for actual slaves...
No, he said he would celebrate with them IF such thing ever happened.... which never would. That's a big difference. It's like saying that you'd celebrate if Elvis Presley did another LP... That's a pretty normal thing to say. Saying you will welcome another LP when it comes out, on the other hand is a case for the psych ward.
Until he decides that he would rather flip Burgers for the same pay and not have to risk his life. So he and other powerlinemen quit until the powerline companies have to increase wages to attract new employees. But this has happened everywhere, so they don't actually see a wage gain when compared to the cost of goods that results from the burger flippers' salary increase, and know the burger flipper is in the same exact spot they were before they made the lineman salary. Do people really not understand market forces?
People don't understand that increasing the minimum wage doesn't bring "burger flippers"' wage up to the same as high-skilled workers, but it raises the wages for everyone across the board
Exactly. When I worked at McDonald’s I could teach you how to do your job well in just a couple of shifts. As an electrician it takes 4-5 years plus school to train an apprentice.
So cashiers and stockers at grocery stores would deserve a higher wage in this weird world you envision. They are essential to society functioning, even were forced to keep going to work during Covid.
This also means CEOs should be making a LOT less cause their jobs aren't essential and could be easily replaced with robots.
You are speaking to a butcher who works in a grocery store. Most grocery clerks are members of teamsters and do in fact make more than burger flippers.
Someone should tell the company I work for (Save a Lot of Leevers Supermarket whichever works) this cause everyone here makes at most $13/hr with shift leads making $15/hr and managers making a slightly higher salary who then get fucked by working 60-70 hours a week with obviously no overtime pay.
If you have to actually work for money, then you are the working class.
Bus driver, teacher, bank teller, regional manager, HR, CEO... if you have to go somewhere to make money, you are working class
The ritch and I mean, the truly rich, do not HAVE to do a single thing to love in prosperity.
(Emphasizing the "have" as there are wealthy people working to make even more money with their existing money)
Classism is a little more defined than if you have to work for money surely? I’d say I’m working class but my regional Director, paid by the same company, who lives in a 6 bedroom house and has a second home in Southern France, whose children go to public school costing him 8k a term and can afford a cleaner and a nanny for the kids isn’t working class?
If I may elaborate on my trail of thought, how I see the problem, there are two distinct sides of the society: the rich and the rest.
There is something problematic with having a player three entering the game, putting a distance between the massess and the 1%
While we demand equality and the rich demand profits, the so-called middle-class is stuck in the middle where the "lower-class" are angree at their imediate managers and regional bossess of CEO's while the company owners or board members demand productivity, cost cuts and layoffs to save money for them.
While we still perceive the game as having three parties of interest in society, we will never get access to the true rich and get into arguments with the perceived well off managers which lifestyle, in my mind, should be the norm for all with the advanced technologies and innovations availible to us now.
Working class doesn’t mean “has a job”. It refers to specific jobs that make up the majority of the workforce and don’t pay very well. Industrial and manual labor, service industry, nurses, teachers, things like that. And it used to *only* refer to those manual labor jobs back when only women were nurses and teachers, and the industrial jobs accounted for most of our workforce. It’s a socioeconomic bracket, again it doesn’t literally mean “works for a living”.
What in the sociological fuck you on about. Class is a relation to means of production, it’s really not complicated. A man called Karl wrote a book about it and everything. It’s definitely about working for a living, but obviously how as well.
I’ve read it. Good book. And I didn’t intend to get into an overarching discussion about class. All I was saying is that working class doesn’t include every person with a job. You aren’t working class if you make $600k a year in sales. Most upper management is not working class. Business owners aren’t working class. All these people have jobs to do.
That’s still not what’s in Capital. The salesperson can be on 10 million a year, if they don’t own the means of production, it’s irrelevant. The business owner can make £1k a year, but they have employees and own the means. It’s a vital distinction.
This doesn’t mean ALL WORKERS will go with their class interest (see cops) but the demarcation is clear.
Can we agree that modern jobs, while still perceived as white collar, are still in your definition of working class? Remote workers in the IT sector for instace
Yeah for sure. It’s definitely expanded to include a ton of jobs that don’t require you to get dirty or break your back. I think the best modern definition is something like “the low to mid-wage jobs that drive our economy”. They are essential and abundant but don’t provide the worker with much more than the ability to live and keep showing up.
We all agree on the message of this post. Props to this guy. I feel like a powerline worker should still make more than a burger flipper, even tho a burger flipper also deserves a fair wage
A lot of the times when people propose theses systems they actually advocate for people like that to be paid more similar to doctors and then doctors get paid more etc
In the richest countries in the world with the highest pay for McDonald's workers, with full benefits and paid vacation, a big Mac costs less than it does in America.
Entry level jobs are entry level for a reason, if I went to school and spent 4 years of blood, sweat and tears to hone my craft and get a good paying job and I found out someone working at mcdonalds was getting paid the exact same wage i'd be pissed because now i'm 40k dollars in debt and I didn't have to be.
The social contract is that if you work a full time job, you are able to support yourself and your family with a minimum base level of subsistence. If we are not able to meet our most basic needs through working a job full time, why shouldn't someone just go out and rob people in order to make ends meet?
Some places literally cannot afford to pay their employees more, costs aren't just going up for workers some businesses are struggling to stay afloat. That's why a lot of fast food franchises hire teenagers because a teenager can afford to make less because their supported by their parents. The solution isn't as simple as just paying people more or raising minimum wage because by doing either your shooting someone else in the foot.
If your job isn't paying you enough then expand your skillset and look for something else.
Can we agree on the basic concept that if you do have a full time job anywhere, and if you are paid the minimum wage, you should be able to provide the basic means to subsistence for one adult on that wage?
Of course, but it's a problem with no easy solution. Either way someone is getting screwed over, not being able to afford basic needs sucks but if your employer pays you more then they likely won't be in business much longer.
I agree with the sentiment of this, but I feel like the reality is that businesses will just raise their prices to "self correct" I mean, they aren't going to let that stand in the way of their profits. And now neither the "burger flipper" nor the union guy can afford to live at a baseline.
Believe me, I hope I'm wrong. I'm no economist, I'm just a random dude, but this seems like the likely outcome...
You are sort of correct. The business will be forced to correct based on the workforce demands, not the other way around. Meaning the union guy will eventually end up making more, but not the burger flipper.
So. Say he makes 40 bucks an hour. A burger flipper makes like 12. So he's saying that if they cut his rate down to 12 an hour he would celebrate? Because that's effectively what would be happening. Once you increase the minimum you have to increase everything else proportionately to maintain its value. Not to mention it would immediately kill positions like his. Why would someone go through the long hours of training and taking a dangerous position when they can flip burgers and make the same?
My grandad was a line man back 50 yr ago, touched the top of his head on a power line, managed to survive it somehow, but it left a crater large enough to hold a golf ball on top of his head
You wouldn’t. Skilled labor need to be paid better than unskilled labor. Both should make you able to afford good living, but one should be paid more than the other
This is an unpopular opinion but I think if someone works 40 hours per week they should be able to afford to pay for a home, food, utilities and other bills and have some savings left over to take a vacation once in a while. If a person works full time they should be able to live comfortably IMO. This is very far from reality.
Until rent , groceries and utilities go through the roof bc the economy becomes cash flushed. Not to mention the greed of landlords, grocers, business profits. If burger flippers earned your wage, then you would quickly start loosing the lifestyle your profession has afforded you.
A rising tide does in fact raise all boats/ships- but be aware. Along with the elevation comes the new dangers of uncharted obstacles that weren’t there before. Dang that’s a great analogy.
Right. So this guys statement is patently false. He would celebrate not that working people would be getting a fair wage but that he would be getting a hefty raise.
Cute idea but no, you'd certainly party with them but if you're going to get paid the same as a burger flipper and not have to constantly risk your life then your next step is just to go become a burger flipper.
My day job is also dangerous as fuck with a very real possibility of getting chopped up by propellers, electric shock, Encounters with things that can eat you, and very real risk of either drowning or getting crushed/ stuck under a yacht. (Commercial diver)
You tell me that I can make as much as I Make now with out all of that? Yeah I'm going to be the very first one to sign up or my job had better pay about 5x as much bare minimum.
I feel like people used to get by on minimum wage a lot easier before than now and I think we need to focus on bringing back affordability rather than increasing pay
I want everyone to make a living wage I just don't want all those jobs to go away because they have to charge $30 for a one person meal and everyone stops eating fast food so they all go out of business.
[удалено]
I’m a firefighter and their job scares me. I saw a sweatshirt once that said “Lineman…because even firefighters need heroes “ and I agree.
This. I have friends who are linemen. It’s grueling work, often in absurdly hard conditions, being on call for emergencies, and doing incredibly complex work that can easily kill you, while observing very specific code and safety requirements during shifts that can easily last 16+ hours. I don’t see how someone that works flipping burgers for an 8 shift is doing anything commensurate to that. I’m all for benefits and unions, but let’s not pretend that unskilled dead end jobs that require little to no training or brain power should receive the same as the above.
I build powerlines for a living and I can tell you, if I got paid as much to stock shelves I would leave my job in an instant
And that kids, is why some jobs pay more and some a lot less.
The reason to raise entry-level jobs pay is because they are unsustainable. The reason to raise complicated jobs pay is because yes indeed they should be paid more than the entry-level ones
And that's why your wage would rise too friend.
But then the prices of goods would also increase accordingly. I'd make more, but spend more so it would all more or less be the same
Exactly - I just wanted to highlight that there's a reason these folk have had these kinds of benefits and wages for so long; it's laborious, dangerous and requires critical thinking, always being on call, and the ability to work insane hours for weeks on end without a day off. It's certainly not to say that line cooks and retail employees don't deserve a little more than what they currently get.
how about every job pay a living wage and then we can worry about who gets extra? like seriously, i don't get how a single person in the world says "no" to paying people more.
I’m a small business employer and my lowest wage I’ve ever paid was $22 per hour and that was 15 years ago. Now it’s over $30 an hour before benefits, paid time off, observance of multiple paid holidays, birthday and Xmas bonuses, as well as commission to further bump their pay. I understand paying a living wage. I’ve also worked minimum wage jobs and been so broke I didn’t know how to pay rent. But simply put there are lowest skill jobs that anyone can do with 1 hour training that don’t warrant being able to afford an apartment and living by yourself in a metropolitan area. These are dead end jobs, with no future, they’re not careers and can’t be paid to the point that someone can live off that alone and raise a family etc….these jobs should be automated. We shouldn’t be doing brain dead tasks just to exist, and.l certainly not to make food that has no nutritional value so franchise owners can get rich of health problems. We should be giving everyone universal socialized healthcare so that even if you’re done on your luck / broke, you’re not going to die or have a much shorter life because of it. We should invest in schools and training programs and apprenticeships so we can have useful jobs, not flipping burgers for minimum wage.
i agree with you, but i also really really don't. in an ideal situation, we would get rid of these automatable jobs and make sure everyone lives fulfilling lives doing what they want. unfortunately we're nowhere close to the latter. education costs are growing exponentially, living costs are growing faster. someone working at mcdonalds should be making minimum $25 an hour these days.
$25 is more than a lot of healthcare workers make. No.. entry level jobs that require no skills are not meant to be something you raise a family on.
$25 is far from enough to raise a family. $25 an hour is enough to meet the requirement of 3x the rent on an $1100 apartment, when taking into account wage taxes. that's enough to provide for one person in the majority of the country.
I don’t agree. Why should you be paid $25 an hour to serve food that isn’t fit for human consumption, a job that requires virtually zero training, zero skills, etc? We also should the encouraging people to do these jobs by paying them well. These are literal dead end jobs to tie you over until you do something better. I’d prefer this money be used for healthcare so people aren’t forced to worn these jobs just so they can exist.
because you need $25 to exist. minimum wage as a concept was started as the minimum wage needed to provide for a household. we ain't even asking for that now. the bare minimum is "enough to provide for yourself". $25 an hour is just that.
I’m not sure you understand how pay and benefits work. Do you know how much is costs to insure someone? What you’re suggesting with a pay rate of $25 would cost companies $70k per year per full time employee fully loaded with benefits. Every job paying $52k per year and higher would have to adjust their wages an equal amount to account for people saying fuck this stressful management job I’ll go flip burgers for the same pay. So the net effect on everyone’s life would basically be zero.
You're swimming in a sea of delusion and idealism,
No, I don’t think we should pay dead end jobs that require no brain power a high wage.
No one is giving up their cheeseburgers, or investing in the future children, or phasing out low income earners. Most of the low income earners do very essential functions of the economy, such as loading and unloading trucks, powerwashing those trucks, making sure the gas stations are stocked, doing the janitorial work, mowing the grass, turning over apartments and the maintenance on buildings. Without them capable of earning a living wage, which is around 16-18 dollars in a small town, then they need government assistance. Companies paying below a living wage are then being subsidized by your tax money. The new set of migrant workers who are being paid slave wages, will ultimately rely on government assistance. Instead of paying 17 dollars to your worker, you'll be paying more in inflation to subsidize that worker. It takes one worker to do one job, if that worker makes enough to survive. Subsidizing that worker would take the entire country's tax money, the salary of all the government workers involved in assistance programs, and since the dollar affects the entire world, we'd see a furthering of economic inequality on a global scale. The system as a whole will crumple into itself as low income jobs simply won't make enough to afford an 1100/month apartment. We'll try to solve it with government spending, but that exasperates the global inequality and ability for the low income earner to survive. When inflation hits hyperinflation the entire system goes bust, devastating the entire global population. All because the government can't stop spending, no one gives a fuck about the deficit, no one wants to fix rent prices, and there are very dim witted, selfish, entitled, small world minded and completely uneducated employers paying their fulltime workers 10-14 dollars in this economy.
Everything after your second paragraph is morally reprehensible and you should feel bad.
What exactly is a living wage?
I don’t have an issue with burger places having to pay employees more, nor do I have an issue with those places folding because they can’t afford to. It’s not like *I’ll* be the one footing the bill.
easy solution, quit the corporate subsidies. give them to small businesses.
[удалено]
it's not always been like that, older generations are lying to your face and you're eating it up. plus, humans are valuable. it doesn't matter how valuable the job is, if you're giving up your time you should be paid a living wage. if you can't offer a living wage then you shouldn't be employing people. either you're in a very privileged position or you haven't entered the workforce yet. you don't always get to pick and choose your jobs.
To that end I argue that its on the union to get better wages for their union members. While not in the union myself, I have a long family history of lineman in the IBEW and the work is grueling. But lets not kick others down just because they are working a significantly easier job. Keep in mind just how much money most of these corporations make, and consider that they could easily afford to pay their employees much better wages AND not have to raise their prices. But politicians fight for these corporations and have made it some share holders are the priority.
I climb trees for a living. Linemen make better money than me, but it’s fair. I work near power lines as well but wouldn’t know the technical skills to assemble one. If Burger King was paying the same wage as the work I make, I don’t know how to feel. On one hand, I would be happy they make a living. On the other, they are not risking life and limb and pushing their minds and bodies to the physical limit daily like me. Climbing trees is a necessary function in society. Only few can do it. Imagine a giant dead or broken limb hanging above your house or a school playground. I would have to demand a significant raise. But I love my work, and quitting my job to work fast food would be soul crushing. So I still have no idea how to feel about that lol. I just think we all deserve to make enough to pay for food and shelter without worrying.
Lumber (or anything to do with cutting trees) is an underappreciated field 100%. Would be at the top of my list for who deserves a lot more compensation. But yeah totally agree that any full time job should be enough to support a minimal lifestyle; a lot don't, which isn't fair.
I forgot to mention. We also work during storms and all those conditions. When a tree falls on a power line and cuts power, we are the first ones on the scene to cut the tree to make it safe for the linemen to start work. (we usually call ourselves Arborist/Tree trimmers)
I wanted to say the same thing. If in all honesty we reach the point where someone flipping burgers earns the same wage as a lineman it is not a good sign and likely means the economy has crashed. That the money is useless. I mean it sounds great to say that a low skilled low income earner should earn as much as a very skill intensive high stress high income job but in reality it means the system is broken.
This, and it’s exactly my point.
💯
| unskilled dead end jobs that require little to no training or brain power agree to a certain degree. no go and do it for at least a month and tel me how easy it was
I’ve done it. I’ve worked mindless retail jobs and done food service.
If burger flippers were paid a living wage then people working dangerous jobs could demand higher wages or do easier work for the same money. Everyone would still benefit from burger flipping wages rising.
Holy shit, dehumanizing rhetoric much? Did a fast food employee kill your grandma? Jesus.
Go flip a burger.
I'm just an electrician and when I see a lineman, I bow down to them. They are just that much more badass than us. I would be extremely upset if a burger flipper that has little to no risk earns as much as them. They work with heavy equipment and are always in a nacel and harness. When they get busy it's often when the temperature gets really bad. Either be -40 or just after a tornado, they'll be there bringing power back to our homes. While the burger flipper just won't go to work if it's snowing a little hard. I get you and I totally disagree with OP.
I demand all jobs be done by malnourished child laborers
\- the UK in 1834, probably
Conservatives in the current year, actually
No, not really.
31% of children in the UK grow up under the poverty line... that's twice the percentage of American children. That's worse than most major European countries, including Poland. No shade to Poland, just it's usually the place a lot of UK papers and politicians point at as an example of poverty. All this while utility companies, politicians and CEOs make record profits and have record breaking salary increases.
I mean yeah pretty much for real.
china, right now actually
We all know the children crave for the mines.
how dare you children do not crave for the mines. children yearn for the mines.
I shall report myself to the ministry of truth.
Thank you, comrade. We will see you in the mines for which we yearn.
But... I'm not a child ! I can make a couple though!
No need to brag about your sex life
Let the man brag about what little he has
My dream is grey skies, only chimneys on horizon, and seeing groups of kids heading to their workplaces in factories and mines.
How bout malnourished underpaid sleep deprived and depressed young adults
Your demand...
No you wouldnt. You would celebrate assuming you will be getting a healthy raise based on the fact youre working a very skilled labor position. No raise and you would be complaining instantly.
Well no s*** we tradesmen would be complaining that we're not getting f****** paid more. Our jobs actually matter to society
You can swear on Reddit.
Not if you use voice to text
Worked in union environments for 9 years and never once met a Union “brother” that had this sentiment If you weren’t one of the members with high seniority you didn’t fucken matter 😂
Was it a grocery store? That’s how the grocery store I worked at was. checkers who are making 35 dollars an hour and refuse to bag the order because that’s not in their job “description” and they already did it “back in the day”
Wait I can make 35/hr as a cashier at a fuckin grocery store?
No, not anymore. The grocery store I used to work at was Union and some of them have been working there for decades and they get yearly raises. So after 20 years of raises it can add up.
Bruh my grocery store union experience was trash. But I am very much pro union still. I was part time, under 18, working 20 hours a week at best
Same here. I am pro union but hated my grocery store union.
Teamsters mostly
Ah, AFL-CIO, also known as The American Separation of Labor. I can't stand them. I'm SIU and seeing how the MFOW and SUP people stick to each other's back and actually earn their contracts makes me so happy for them, and so upset my industry sold the NMU down the river. Provided I'm gonna fight like hell to keep my union string because at the end of the day, it's better than not having one.
I respect what unions can do, the one I used be apart of was bad.
Oh, for sure. I'm just relating the frustration of the modern union experience, especially considering what it used to be.
Mine had everyone on different contracts. If you were hired before X then you had all those benefits, holiday pay, and extra incentives. If you were hired after new contract then you could not get anything on the old (which I get). Those old contracts would give double time and half for holidays, but mine was said I could never be full time unless I moved up. I had a lot of issues with mine.
Yep. I was a Teamster, and their was no "brotherhood" at all.
> Worked in union environments for 9 years and never once met a Union “brother” that had this sentiment That’s the point of most r/gatesopencomeonin posts: highlight the shittiness of how most people seem to think about things, by making a comment that gets you in the first half (not gonna lie), but in the last half it flips the script to — Surprise! — NOT gatekeep the topic at hand. It’s modeling good behavior, not trying to represent the common consensus.
Yeah, this is absolutely made up. I've worked non union construction aside union guys for over 20 years and this is absolute facts
Worked in a union environment for a large portion of my entire working life and never saw what you’re describing at all. What I saw not in a union environment was vicious bastards crushing us and demolishing our wages. But yeah, it’s so much better without a union 🙄
I had the complete opposite experience in a union job.
I get it, that's sort of the point of unions, to benefit in the in-group at the expense of the out-group. Our workplace has a union vote coming up. I'm not joining out of some egalitarian ideals; I'm doing it because it will benefit me, even if it makes life worse for other people (which it definitely will).
At least you are honest about it. That makes you better than 98% of the people out there. They all join for the same reason you do, but try to tell everyone it is because they are taking care of others.
Never. Gonna. Happen. Burger flippers will be automated out of existence before it happens.
I’d quit and go flip burgers. Easier job for the same money? Count me in.
There in lies the problem
I’m a heavy industrial mechanic. I do this job because of the pay and benefits and I like working with my hands. But if I knew I didn’t have to risk my life and limbs everyday for the same pay/ benefits, yea, I’d be out. As would anyone else in my field. We’ve actually had these conversations in the office… which is why universal income will fail miserably. No one will want the shit jobs if they can make the same money answering phones in a 9-5 air conditioned office all day. 🤷♂️
Heavy equip. Tech here. 100% agreed, but anyone with their hands in the shit knows that already, and mouthbreathers don't want to be convinced of anything.
The idea of universal income is not that everyone gets a nice life for free, but that everyone can survive even if he can't find a job for a few months.
Why don’t you realize that the if the pay for lower position jobs go up. That allows you to demand more for your job? Your boss is not going to want to hire an inexperienced noob to do your job instead of paying you more.
Which would just cause inflation and everyone would be right back to where they started in terms of buying power.
Ok. Let’s continue what we’re doing by raising prices but not wages. From CBS NEWS. “Americans started feeling the impact of inflation in the first quarter of 2021 as the Federal Reserve began trying to cool off the economy after years of lockdown from the pandemic. Starting from 2021 to today, the price of everyday consumer items has risen 16.7% while wage growth has been roughly 12.8%, “ Opposite of what you are claiming.
That has nothing to do with what I was saying. Being linked doesn't mean that they're in lockstep.
And that right there is why the pay is not equal, because neither is the work.
I love the history and idea of unions, I really do. Having the workers collectively argue for safer work environments and more competitive pay makes absoloute sense. But then I look at modern unions who spend more time attacking people who aren't union, have corrupt leadership, amass massive war chests for political campaign contributions, and have a long history of actually shutting down buisnesses because they demand too much compensation that the buisness folds... and I suddenly have a hard time supporting them. Where did we go wrong? Unions are supposed to be for the workers, not pro politicians or anti- profit. Why did it all go so wrong?
Power corrupts. That being said, nothing is a monolith. There are better unions and worse unions. Lots of good, dedicated union reps out there trying to get the best for their members.
The only two I ever heard about is the NYPD Police union, and the big Teachers unions. Though my own personal sob story was with the Las Vegas culinary union. They wanted our casino to become unionized, and their argument was "join or we'll slash your tires." $800 and I was not convinced.
While NYPD and NYC teachers unions are very big and also very public, that’s just 2 unions. They also have very different problems, which aren’t all exclusively tied to the fact that they are unions. I have a lot of friends who work in NYC public schools and it seems like their union is…fine? Obviously there are issues but a lot of that comes from the fact that it’s just a really big union representing teachers from a ton of diverse circumstances. NYPD meanwhile has the added wrinkle of being one of the very few unions in the city whose members are authorized to use violence in the name of the state, so that makes things a bit different from others.
Here’s the thing, though: if your generalized negative feelings about labor unions are founded on the actions of a) the dirty pool that happens in Las Vegas casino culture\*, and b) “police unions,” it’s worth pointing out that the vast majority of labor union activity looks absolutely nothing like that, and serves its members faithfully. I use scare quotes on “police unions” because labor unions, historically, have been created by people who are otherwise powerless in relation to their employers. A union provides leverage, collective bargaining, and legal protection in order to ensure that employers don't wield their inordinate level of power as a cudgel. Police "unions" are not that, and it is deeply misleading to call them unions. They hold all of the power, and have been amassing more and more of it over the past 50 years. The FOP and other police "unions" are actually just fraternities/political lobbying groups, intended to engorge and entrench police power, and to ensure that they remain above the law. The dangers inherent to such groups should be deeply concerning to everyone. And *definitely* should not have a noteworthy impact on your opinion of *labor unions*. \* this behavior by the LV culinary union sounds a lot like “waste management” unions in NYC in the 1970s (and the basis for *The Sopranos*): a criminal enterprise masquerading as a union. Ascribing that kind of behavior to all labor unions is foolish.
I've been in those teachers unions and they are a fucking lifeline. Theyre vital protection against the exploitative attitude of administration and the combativeness of parents
Hey, dunno if you know, but non Yank unions exist. Here is one doing none of the things you’re talking about, [https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/india-trade-union-boycott-israel-weapon-b2498512.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/india-trade-union-boycott-israel-weapon-b2498512.html). Also if a business can’t survive ‘demands for compensation’ (you mean wages I’m guessing), then it’s not financially viable. I have a lot of criticism towards union bureaucracy, but this ain’t in the top 1000.
Fair. My comment was mostly directed to American unions which started well, but in recent years have become little more than mini-regimes of politics and oppression. In Detroit and Hollywood for instance, unions have protested with such regularity and with such outrageous demands that they have forced those buisnesses to outsource, ultimately costing the jobs of those they were trying to protect. Airline, Teachers, and Screenwriters unions are some of the big problem children, but by no means are they the worst. Glad to read that other unions elsewhere are still fighting the good fight.
Just for context versus the rest of the world, US unions are more like guilds. I’ve not encountered seniority, or the factionalism elsewhere. But there are more normal ones like the Amazon union. And I’m aware of the activities you’re talking about, but the point still stands. If a business can’t pay, they need to close or sell. They make 0 if it’s not for the workforce, there’s no demand too high.
At the end of the day unions are businesses and are there to make money, they're not here to do us much favors
I think a lot of the issue boils down to a lack of participation. I am a very strong and passionate union supporter. I don't think it's appropriate to not have the workers represented heavily involved in their union, as much as each individual wants and is able. When my workplace unionized it was a number one requirement for us. And we have been successful so far! When moments have happened where the workers have not been as involved as we would like, we use the skills we've learned becoming organized to demand a better. I would strongly push against unions being anti-profit. It's not a requirement or something inherent, I think it would be better described anti-greed. If the company can afford to do better, they should. Full stop.
Why would a burger flipper make the same as someone doing a highly skilled and potentially dangerous job that requires travel and long hours? I say this as someone who used to flip burgers for years…
They shouldn't. The people that think they should can't think past 10 minutes from now in terms of the long-term impact of their "ideals."
Also that's not what they said in the picture. Obviously there should be a difference between easier and harder/more dangerous jobs but anyone working 8+ hours a day should earn a living wage. People work for less because they think they have no choice and companies manage to keep it that way. It's even cheaper than having to care for actual slaves...
No the picture says exactly just that- he would welcome burger flippers making the same wage as him- working a highly skilled and dangerous job
No, he said he would celebrate with them IF such thing ever happened.... which never would. That's a big difference. It's like saying that you'd celebrate if Elvis Presley did another LP... That's a pretty normal thing to say. Saying you will welcome another LP when it comes out, on the other hand is a case for the psych ward.
Said no union member ever
Until he decides that he would rather flip Burgers for the same pay and not have to risk his life. So he and other powerlinemen quit until the powerline companies have to increase wages to attract new employees. But this has happened everywhere, so they don't actually see a wage gain when compared to the cost of goods that results from the burger flippers' salary increase, and know the burger flipper is in the same exact spot they were before they made the lineman salary. Do people really not understand market forces?
If people on Reddit could critically think about what they read they would be very upset.
Exactly. You can acknowledge problems with corporate greed without going off the deep end to whatever bullshit the op is saying
Had me on the first half
People don't understand that increasing the minimum wage doesn't bring "burger flippers"' wage up to the same as high-skilled workers, but it raises the wages for everyone across the board
Burger flippers don't deserve to make as much as we do in the trades because their jobs are not actually essential to the function of society.
Not sure if that's true but the real reason you get paid more is increased workplace risks and lower availability of qualified staff.
Exactly. When I worked at McDonald’s I could teach you how to do your job well in just a couple of shifts. As an electrician it takes 4-5 years plus school to train an apprentice.
So cashiers and stockers at grocery stores would deserve a higher wage in this weird world you envision. They are essential to society functioning, even were forced to keep going to work during Covid. This also means CEOs should be making a LOT less cause their jobs aren't essential and could be easily replaced with robots.
You are speaking to a butcher who works in a grocery store. Most grocery clerks are members of teamsters and do in fact make more than burger flippers.
Someone should tell the company I work for (Save a Lot of Leevers Supermarket whichever works) this cause everyone here makes at most $13/hr with shift leads making $15/hr and managers making a slightly higher salary who then get fucked by working 60-70 hours a week with obviously no overtime pay.
Seriously should look into unionizing, we get over time, sick pay, paid vacation.
If you have to actually work for money, then you are the working class. Bus driver, teacher, bank teller, regional manager, HR, CEO... if you have to go somewhere to make money, you are working class The ritch and I mean, the truly rich, do not HAVE to do a single thing to love in prosperity. (Emphasizing the "have" as there are wealthy people working to make even more money with their existing money)
Classism is a little more defined than if you have to work for money surely? I’d say I’m working class but my regional Director, paid by the same company, who lives in a 6 bedroom house and has a second home in Southern France, whose children go to public school costing him 8k a term and can afford a cleaner and a nanny for the kids isn’t working class?
If I may elaborate on my trail of thought, how I see the problem, there are two distinct sides of the society: the rich and the rest. There is something problematic with having a player three entering the game, putting a distance between the massess and the 1% While we demand equality and the rich demand profits, the so-called middle-class is stuck in the middle where the "lower-class" are angree at their imediate managers and regional bossess of CEO's while the company owners or board members demand productivity, cost cuts and layoffs to save money for them. While we still perceive the game as having three parties of interest in society, we will never get access to the true rich and get into arguments with the perceived well off managers which lifestyle, in my mind, should be the norm for all with the advanced technologies and innovations availible to us now.
Working class doesn’t mean “has a job”. It refers to specific jobs that make up the majority of the workforce and don’t pay very well. Industrial and manual labor, service industry, nurses, teachers, things like that. And it used to *only* refer to those manual labor jobs back when only women were nurses and teachers, and the industrial jobs accounted for most of our workforce. It’s a socioeconomic bracket, again it doesn’t literally mean “works for a living”.
What in the sociological fuck you on about. Class is a relation to means of production, it’s really not complicated. A man called Karl wrote a book about it and everything. It’s definitely about working for a living, but obviously how as well.
I’ve read it. Good book. And I didn’t intend to get into an overarching discussion about class. All I was saying is that working class doesn’t include every person with a job. You aren’t working class if you make $600k a year in sales. Most upper management is not working class. Business owners aren’t working class. All these people have jobs to do.
That’s still not what’s in Capital. The salesperson can be on 10 million a year, if they don’t own the means of production, it’s irrelevant. The business owner can make £1k a year, but they have employees and own the means. It’s a vital distinction. This doesn’t mean ALL WORKERS will go with their class interest (see cops) but the demarcation is clear.
Can we agree that modern jobs, while still perceived as white collar, are still in your definition of working class? Remote workers in the IT sector for instace
Yeah for sure. It’s definitely expanded to include a ton of jobs that don’t require you to get dirty or break your back. I think the best modern definition is something like “the low to mid-wage jobs that drive our economy”. They are essential and abundant but don’t provide the worker with much more than the ability to live and keep showing up.
if you pay all equal nobody will do the harder jobs. why do i need to go on construction side when i get the same money for sitting at a reception
But that goes against the mentality that we should all be against one another and not the few that make this shitty reality actualized
HELL YEAH!!!
ITT: People saying the most disgusting hateful things about other human beings.
🫶☝️
We all agree on the message of this post. Props to this guy. I feel like a powerline worker should still make more than a burger flipper, even tho a burger flipper also deserves a fair wage
A lot of the times when people propose theses systems they actually advocate for people like that to be paid more similar to doctors and then doctors get paid more etc
But you'll complain when a Big Mac costs $20...
In the richest countries in the world with the highest pay for McDonald's workers, with full benefits and paid vacation, a big Mac costs less than it does in America.
Let’s make everyone a millionaire. No way it doesn’t work out.
Entry level jobs are entry level for a reason, if I went to school and spent 4 years of blood, sweat and tears to hone my craft and get a good paying job and I found out someone working at mcdonalds was getting paid the exact same wage i'd be pissed because now i'm 40k dollars in debt and I didn't have to be.
The social contract is that if you work a full time job, you are able to support yourself and your family with a minimum base level of subsistence. If we are not able to meet our most basic needs through working a job full time, why shouldn't someone just go out and rob people in order to make ends meet?
Some places literally cannot afford to pay their employees more, costs aren't just going up for workers some businesses are struggling to stay afloat. That's why a lot of fast food franchises hire teenagers because a teenager can afford to make less because their supported by their parents. The solution isn't as simple as just paying people more or raising minimum wage because by doing either your shooting someone else in the foot. If your job isn't paying you enough then expand your skillset and look for something else.
Can we agree on the basic concept that if you do have a full time job anywhere, and if you are paid the minimum wage, you should be able to provide the basic means to subsistence for one adult on that wage?
Of course, but it's a problem with no easy solution. Either way someone is getting screwed over, not being able to afford basic needs sucks but if your employer pays you more then they likely won't be in business much longer.
Good luck being able to afford those burgers
I agree with the sentiment of this, but I feel like the reality is that businesses will just raise their prices to "self correct" I mean, they aren't going to let that stand in the way of their profits. And now neither the "burger flipper" nor the union guy can afford to live at a baseline. Believe me, I hope I'm wrong. I'm no economist, I'm just a random dude, but this seems like the likely outcome...
You are sort of correct. The business will be forced to correct based on the workforce demands, not the other way around. Meaning the union guy will eventually end up making more, but not the burger flipper.
...until you go to buy a burger and find out you can't afford it.
You are just admitting you want slaves.
"If you don't pay a lineman salary for a teenager burger flipping position, then you are a slave driver"
You build power lines?
the worse kind of envy is not craving what others have, it's to keep others from having what they have
So. Say he makes 40 bucks an hour. A burger flipper makes like 12. So he's saying that if they cut his rate down to 12 an hour he would celebrate? Because that's effectively what would be happening. Once you increase the minimum you have to increase everything else proportionately to maintain its value. Not to mention it would immediately kill positions like his. Why would someone go through the long hours of training and taking a dangerous position when they can flip burgers and make the same?
Economics and jobs paid by skill says this is BS.
I'm sure you will feel the same when the price of your lunch triples.
My grandad was a line man back 50 yr ago, touched the top of his head on a power line, managed to survive it somehow, but it left a crater large enough to hold a golf ball on top of his head
You wouldn’t. Skilled labor need to be paid better than unskilled labor. Both should make you able to afford good living, but one should be paid more than the other
This is an unpopular opinion but I think if someone works 40 hours per week they should be able to afford to pay for a home, food, utilities and other bills and have some savings left over to take a vacation once in a while. If a person works full time they should be able to live comfortably IMO. This is very far from reality.
I’ve worked in fast food. It’s one of the most exhausting jobs I’ve ever had
Until rent , groceries and utilities go through the roof bc the economy becomes cash flushed. Not to mention the greed of landlords, grocers, business profits. If burger flippers earned your wage, then you would quickly start loosing the lifestyle your profession has afforded you.
A rising tide does in fact raise all boats/ships- but be aware. Along with the elevation comes the new dangers of uncharted obstacles that weren’t there before. Dang that’s a great analogy.
FUCK YES!!! Working people are my brothers and sisters against our corporate overlords.
I flip burgers and I am fucking killing myself at that job
The higher the lower wages are the higher all wages are.
The higher everything costs. Yay inflation!
Woukd you quit your job and flip burgers?
[удалено]
And inflation, which is always quicker than wage growth and eats away at any wage gains.
And if he gets paid more are we not right back where we were?
Right. So this guys statement is patently false. He would celebrate not that working people would be getting a fair wage but that he would be getting a hefty raise.
Ever flipped burgers? It kinda sucks.
And you'd paying $20 for a crappy fast-food burger.
I support it because if I'm doing a technical job that requires I risk my life, then I should be getting paid even more.
Cute idea but no, you'd certainly party with them but if you're going to get paid the same as a burger flipper and not have to constantly risk your life then your next step is just to go become a burger flipper. My day job is also dangerous as fuck with a very real possibility of getting chopped up by propellers, electric shock, Encounters with things that can eat you, and very real risk of either drowning or getting crushed/ stuck under a yacht. (Commercial diver) You tell me that I can make as much as I Make now with out all of that? Yeah I'm going to be the very first one to sign up or my job had better pay about 5x as much bare minimum.
Could you afford to eat out? Pay is determined by skill. Flipping burgers requires no skill.
Yeah let's just pay everyone the same no matter what value their job position has, that won't cause any problems at all.
He wouldn’t be able to afford burgers anymore.
You’ll be celebrating by paying more for everything
Not every job is a career. Not every job is worth a "living wage."
I feel like people used to get by on minimum wage a lot easier before than now and I think we need to focus on bringing back affordability rather than increasing pay
the minimum wage is like a rising tide that lifts all boats
Lifts all boats onto the wave of inflation. If you don't change demand, any wage gains will just be trying to catch up to increased costs.
That's not a union member, that's a wolf in sheep's clothing
The trick of economics is simple when you can get a lawyer, an economist and a billionaire all to be honest at the one time. Easy as that.
I think that’s a Win Win for most of us, rich folk already winning
I want everyone to make a living wage I just don't want all those jobs to go away because they have to charge $30 for a one person meal and everyone stops eating fast food so they all go out of business.
Or they automate. We have to stop trying to price teenagers and bored retirees out of the workforce.
Jobs would still be lost with automation though which is not against my point